 and welcome to another very special episode of our series meeting all odds. In this green times of lockdown, we are bringing to you leaders who are setting examples for each of us by ensuring business as usual despite so many odds that the lockdown has imposed on us. The leader we have today is kind of man of the moment. He has all the data and numbers that the entire M&E industry looks up to. And in this current crisis, these numbers have become all the more important. Please welcome Mr. Sunil Lulla, CEO of BAK India. Sir, welcome on the show. Thank you so much for having me there and to your viewers, my good wishes to stay well and stay healthy. Thank you so much. Sir, you've been doing a very crucial job for all of us by giving us data with so much insight and there's so much that has changed in these last four or five weeks because everyone is in a lockdown. So what kind of changes have you noticed in consumption pattern and worship during these four weeks? So one, it's not just me. There's a whole industry that's doing a lot. We are an industry body, an industry organization. So it's the industry that's doing a lot. I think what's important to understand is that television was always the screen of the household. It has now become even more vital as the screen of the household. We have seen 40 to 45% growth. So we looked at periods which are in January that we call the pre-COVID period. It was only late January that India started seeing cases. The news will kind of turn to report a lot more actively around this. And it became possible that India may also have cases and then Feb and March. So we look at a period which is January and then we look at a period from the time that the lockdown got announced, or largely a lot of companies went to work from home from 15th May and all the way to the last week, last Saturday's data points. So we have all of that. When you look at that, overall in India, television viewership jumped by 43% in this period. It's now settled this week, last week at 40%. Now that is huge. And it's in state after state after state. Whether you take Punjab, Haryana at 53%, you take Rajasthan at 72%, which is normally a low-lying market, Maharashtra at 39%, or you take Tamil Nadu at 39%, which is already a high TV viewing market, or you take Kuttar Pradesh at 49%, or you take West Bengal at 30%. Anywhere you cut it, you're talking of very high viewing. What has happened is you're at home, everybody's under lockdown. So what is called in our industry, non-prime time has really grown. On an overall basis, the viewing of non-prime time has increased by 79%. Within Hindi-speaking markets, it's increased by 95%. In Southern markets, there was already a habit of non-prime time viewing, which was significantly higher. It grew by almost 60%. So across the day, you saw increase in time span. It was already high for prime time, and now it's got very high for non-prime time too. People have started watching TV almost as soon as they wake up. In some markets, we are seeing viewing starting at 4 in the morning. And at some markets, we are seeing the TV go off at 2 AM in the night, which is early AM, but it's the night over there. So it's almost continuous. As a screen of the household, we are seeing that news, for example, is being watched by kids. Kids shows are being watched by both the parents. So the household is viewing television together. And when you look at even mega cities, a lot of the recent viewing has come in from high growth in Maharashtra, high growth in Bombay, high growth in Delhi, high growth in the big mega cities. Urban has grown more than rural. Men and women equally. SCCA has seen large growth in their television viewing habits. Even the young audiences 15 to 24% are showing growth in those audiences. So you cut it whichever way you like. You see this happen over there. And so TV has become a place they turn to. News used to be 7% of total television. It peaked to 21 and is now at about 16%. GEC is to be at 53%. It's a little, it's a bit lower now at about 43%. But movies has gone up. Kids has stayed almost consistent and news has gone up significantly. So I think those are some of the big things as people are spending more time in their home. They are looking at television more often. They are seeing more channels too. An average was down to 16. It's now going to 20 to 23. Watching seven days a week, which is to be in its late 30s, is now in its high 40s at almost 50%. So which means 50% of the homes watch TV seven days of the week. So we've seen television has become the center of attention in the home. In big cities, their viewing has gone from four and a half hours, four hours, 14 minutes to six hours. And even higher than six hours some nights. So it's not everybody who may be working from home. Some people who are at home may not have the physical arrangements to work at home. And they cannot go to work. So they are spending their time watching television. Sir, what kind of operational challenges did you face during this crisis? And how did you tackle those? So I think we took a slightly earlier call before the lockdown that we would go into a work from home mode because we realized that many of our industry peers were doing similar in India. Many of the media companies were turning similar. We also realized the risk. So we first bought in safeguards into the office. We reduced the number of people in the office at our workplaces, at our various workplaces, and then we just moved out completely. So I think the first thing you face is not everybody's house has great internet. So you've got to try and get them to have that. So we used remote VPN connections to get people connected. We made sure that people would have the money to pay for the recharges of all their phones, all their computers. There was a complete almost a 24x7 help desk setup for any crisis that may happen to any individual. So we set it up on three parts, on four parts. One is on the service. The IT service is being up and running because we are also connected into so many homes across India which measure television. So we need to make sure that those homes are running and they are working. So our call center and our people in charge would constantly call and ping them to make sure that they were okay and they were things are working well for them. To make sure our staff's systems were running because we crunch a lot of data every day and we got to make sure that data can be crunched. We made sure that the places where we have our services which is in Baroda and in Bangalore are back-end servers had the ability to run. So the government was kind to give them permission because they saw this as being essential service working for the media industry, gave permission for a few people to be at work to do this. We made sure that the medical safety is there for all staff. So we put certain guidelines because some people want to go back home, some want to stay back exactly where they are but if you're alone and your parents are somewhere else, we undershoot some people may travel. This is a pretty lockdown. So we made sure that people are safe and healthy. That is really important. And then there is the emotional proportion. So we have kept the people busy, engaged with online games, online coaching, playing a guitar, doing yoga classes, art and drawing. We changed our office timings from first of all 9.30 to 6.30 to 10 to 5. We wanted little lists because we feel people at home have a little more responsibility now especially I think women felt that they should spend more if they are at home, they should contribute to any workload that they may have at home. So they should live for their work also what it meant. And then we also made sure that we stay connected. We've given people time off during the week. So when we felt that you know there was a high amount of stress, I just declared a holiday last Friday because we said you know take it off, make it easier for yourselves. Bach will complete five years on the 29th of April. We'll have an online celebration on the 29th. That's great. I hope you invite us also for your celebrations on the 29th. We are prepared. So another new trend that has come out of this lockdown is that the mythological shows have become very popular and especially with the launch of Ramayana and Mahabharata on Doordarshan. So how much has Doordarshan contributed to overall worship growth in Hindi GEC and if I mean how has this entire thing helped Doordarshan grow in his three to four weeks? So Doordarshan became the number one channel in terms of Hindi speaking markets and therefore higher than any other comparison, became the number one channel. When it became the number one channel, it became on the back of Ramayana first, then Mahabharata later and then the other shows which they bought back from the library. If you remove the effect of Doordarshan in Hindi GEC, the rest of the GEC grew by only 5%. So overall Hindi GEC grew by about 25%. If you remove that, Doordarshan has been the driver of that growth basically, which is Ramayana. Now I'm willing to bet you weren't born when Ramayana came in 1986. So if you haven't seen it and you heard about it from your parents or other family members and you read about it, you'll be interested to view it. And let's not forget we are living in a time that is very taxing emotionally. So this became not just a mythology or a great story. It also became a bit like a bomb that you can use the story to kind of uplift your spiritual mood or to uplift your confidence. And that's why it worked. When it started, it had I think three or four advertisers. It's grown 14 fold to 42 advertisers. Three advertisers grew to 42 advertisers. Mahabharata started with two advertisers, went to 24 advertisers. So I think people really laughed it up to be quite simple about it. It's been a big driver. Having said that Hindi GECs have done well. Now a few of these GECs, which used to be on Freedish, like Soni Rishite and a few others, which used to be on Freedish, they translated in end of March or beginning April. But during COVID, they decided not to charge and they went free. And they saw a big growth in their viewing. And GECs have continued to see growth. People are checking different programs, especially in non-prime time. So the prime time viewing habit may be what it is. It may have been dampened down because if you've seen all the shows, you may not repeat them. But people started watching a lot of the shows that they were able to catch up at non-prime time. Some of the GECs also played up some of the earlier mythologicals that they had, catching on to the trend and seeing people's move, building around that. In the South, the GECs have remained strong. They haven't got as impacted as in Hindi. So all the four languages and the five states, GECs have remained above the line of movies. In the Hindi belts, in some cases, the movie channels started doing better and they have done better over time. They have progressed, their numbers have gone up. And that's principally coming on the way they've planned their movies. Some of them bought some new movies in. So movie viewing has also gone up. So I would say if you go to the early period when people started working from home and then moving to lockdown, news was a big rise. Then came movies. Ramayan came around that period. So you saw that as a third curve coming out there. Now as I could just say that maybe there's a bit of stability in this week and perhaps in the next week to come there'll be some stability in terms of all of them are holding where they're holding. We will see these numbers may not be growing week on week but they are much higher and that contribution is coming because what do you do in the afternoon and the morning when you're at home? You know, you may have had a prime time habit or what do you do in non prime time and TV is filling that gap up. Sir, how has all of this impacted the advertising volume? So, you know, it's not a great time, right? You've got so much of viewing. You've got such less clutter. It's not a great time for advertising. So till March 31st, which is the close of half fiscal year, everybody's fiscal year in India, I guess there was an advertising, there was advertising growth happening there largely because there were contracts in place. Come April, we saw a nose dive. After that, we've now seen it flatten out. You know, you've seen, so there were about 1,400 advertisers in January. There are about 1,000 advertisers now. So it's down by those 400 advertisers. So who's advertising? It's what we call as the essentials basket. It's food services, it's personal care and hygiene. It's banking and financial services and some of it is the government, which is promoting either the app or it's promoting caution or educational messages in and around the virus and how to take care of yourselves around the virus, right? We've also seen an interesting trend. I think about 14% of the ad messages carry something about COVID and I'm not talking about government. I'm talking about private sector advertising, which carries something about COVID. So brand's trying to build on the goodwill. I think as the supply chain opens up, FMCGs and essentials basket will grow. The essential basket has grown almost by 15% in the last two, three weeks from, you know, it's a lower volume, but it's grown in relationship to that. So there is a growth back or a return back. We have to see how the next two, three weeks go as supply chain opens up. Many of these brands will come. The interesting trend I have seen in recent times is to find that a Unilever, a Wrecked Benkaiser or Amul will also advertise on kids programming and that has grown. Why? Because the parents are watching their shows with the kids. Kids are at home. They don't always want to see the news, right? So the parents are together with the kids, then they will sit and watch their programming with them. And I think that's smart marketing being done. Another recent trend is all the, what is, what is fashionably called the OTT players in India, the digital streaming services. Some of them have come back with advertising because it's a great opportunity for them. We do a report, which we release every Thursday. And the last edition also be, which we released yesterday with Nielsen, which studies smartphone, smartphone usage. It's very clear there's a growth of entertainment and news both. So news grew really fast and hard on smartphones. Then has come entertainment and now a lot of that has moved towards movies, especially movies they haven't seen or series which they haven't seen and the growth is both international as well as in regional. Obviously languages will do better, right? But its growth is both in international shows, international movies and local languages, Hindi and other Tamil Telugu languages. In February this year you had said that Bark India is planning to increase the panel size to 55,000 homes. Is the plan still on track? We now need to remove the plan because one our boxes are not made in India. So we've got to wait till the shipping lines open for these boxes to come in. We don't know what transitions we are allowed to make in India because we have to travel around the country. And there's a process in which we do this. We do broadcast India first, which is an estimation of television viewing. And then we place the last crunch of these boxes. So we are working on how we will do the estimation of television, right? In terms of size, we do that every year. So we need to do it this year. We were scheduled to do it last year but we were trying to do a joint industry initiative. But at this point in our time we will do an industry, we will do a TV estimate. And we are hoping to get that out somewhere between August and September. So we have pushed back the progression of the boxes. And frankly, that does not put at risk anything in our business. We are sample based. Our sample is aligned to the seven core variables that account for television viewing, which is the language spoken state group, down class, household size, NCCS, pop strata, et cetera, mode of signal received, cable or DTH of Leedish. So basis that we continue to represent the sample of India. Our reporting is accurate within the range that we prescribe to. It's certified, continues to be certified. Obviously, when the lockdown is lifted, I don't imagine it's going to be like, you know, go out there, run out there and place boxes. I'm sure there's going to be a process. There's going to be a gradual transition and we'll go about it. But the first thing we'll do is boxes are mechanical and electrical functional appliances. They have some failure. So some boxes, few boxes will go off. They have to be replaced, which is normal in our business. We never, we never report all the boxes because we have to make provision for some things to go right or to go wrong. So we have to keep that provision. So we all report a sample science, which is reasonable, which is accurate, which reflects the industry. And we will first estimate, re-estimate the TV science and the TV audience. And then we'll go on to place new boxes as and when they're available. We have, we don't have a horizon now when this will happen. You know, we have communicated to the government that we've got to have to time shift the plan and they understand that there is nothing anybody can do at this point of time. So besides this, what are the other things that are, that Bach is expected to do once this lockdown is over? So, you know, we have, we have now started co-reporting TV and smartphone viewing. So the one project that we will certainly do is multi-screen. Right? We are working with some members in the industry to be able to report content that's on TV and that content which may be seen on other devices, as well as any other content that is seen on other devices. Right? To the sense, to the extent that the industry participates and the extent to which we can make this work with technology, we will push the project of doing this. We used to have a panel called premium home, which is to report at our household level. Yesterday, we released the individual level data. Right? So we remain committed to some of the charter, to the points that we made in FEB when we shared our plan. We remain committed. There has to be a time shift because this is something that nobody anticipated. And we do not know when we bounce back to normal. Importantly, we are an industry funded body. If advertising in the industry doesn't do well, Bach cannot do all its activities. Right? We've already started undertaking many significant cost cuts. And we will make sure that we remain financially healthy and viable and our rating system remains accurate, dependable and completely viable. Sir, as an industry veteran, we can close on this. I want to understand from you, how much do you think this entire COVID-19 will derail our growth this year? You should visualize that we will have zero growth as far as advertising goes. Right? So, you know, it's a paradox. We've never had a year of higher content. Right? A higher content. It's one of the biggest years of content. And it's probably going to be parallel to the lowest year of monetization. Right? That's the unfortunate aspect. I think many categories will degrow. But I am personally an optimist. And I believe that the Indian entrepreneur and companies based in India will push really hard for a rebound as long as they're allowed to keep their supply chain going without risking the society or members of the society. Right? I think that's really important. It's a balance of managing health and managing the economy. It's not an easy situation. I think it's a hard act to work on. We release the currency because we know this helps our customers and our constituents be able to monetize their efforts, which is out there on a daily basis. Right? So, we believe that advertising will come back. Maybe some categories will come back first. The essentials basket will come back first. And some categories may take really a long time. Right? A big sporting event like IPL has got postponed out of this summer season. Right? And we hope that some of the sporting events will pick up in the second part of the year. We don't know. I think it's very hard to predict. It's a tough year. And I just think keeping optimism going, being smart and being cautious, and planning your business well is important. The industry must survive and stay collected together at this point of time. That is simply the most important thing. I really appreciate, sir, the way you have summed it up in the end for the entire industry. I hope people watch and learn from it. We have to be together in these times of crisis and ensure that each one of us do our bit to keep the damage as much under control as possible. Thanks a lot, Mr. Lulla, for speaking to us and stay at home and stay safe. You too. Stay well and stay safe. Thank you, sir. Thanks a lot. Thank you.