 especially our future select board members, they said others who are, you know, for about 25, 30 years, you know? Okay. So actually, you know what? You're the chair. You can call us to order. Also, just want to mention that there's a sign in. Is she going around with the sign in, please? Yes, I am the chair of the select board. So I am calling us to order, but I am not sharing this hearing. Mark is, so Mark, take us away. Thank you, everybody, for coming. And in light of the various ages, shall I say, of the people here, we will attempt not to make this too long tonight. I'll say what, can I ask the select board, John, starting with you? Would you just introduce yourself? John Bravan, Calus, select board. Sure, and then John Calus, select board. I'm Joe McLean, I'm the time to turn. Mark Mahaly. Denise Wheeler. Rick Hayden. Okay, so I'm going to call to order the select board hearing that we continue from June 11, when more than many of you are here, right? In order to receive evidence on whether to discontinue or designate as a trail, a portion of the class four section of town highway seven, and any persons wishing to testify or present documents. I know I swore to you in last time, but I'm going to swear to you in the end, okay? And what we're going to do today is take oral testimony if we will first enter into the record anything. Anything since we met. Since we met, if you want to talk and you have some documents to give us, we can do both at the same time. And we have, just reminding you, we have three options. We can keep the right of way as a class four road, we can discontinue the road, or we can reclassify the right of way as a legal trail. What we'll do today is take evidence. That then, it's kind of a formal process here. Then what we will do actually probably is continue the hearing to another date. I'll tell you what I'm going to do that. It may be that you're all exhausted and you've said everything you want to say. That's fine, but we want to be able to think, oh my God, we didn't get some piece of evidence that we need and be able to get it and put it up on the website. And then, finally, we will, at a future date, but not very far from now, we will close the hearing and then we will deliberate as a board in private and we'll announce, we will give a written decision, right, within 60 days of the hearing. Within 60 days of the close of the hearing, we will give a written decision. And the standard is that our decision has to be within, it has to reflect the public good necessity and convenience of the town. That's what we got to do. So, I think what, you want to say something about it? No. I think what I'd like to do to start out of just as a matter of courtesy, I'd like any of the Schultz's who are very affected and not quite the petitioners in this case, but definitely the interested parties, if any of you would like to testify. Rachel, come on up. Come on up here and have a chair. I will ask you, I'll square you in. Raise your right hand first. Do you swear or affirm that the evidence you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? I do. Great. Tell us your name. Gary Schultz. Gary, tell us where you live. 2209 West County Road. Okay, Gary, before you start, do you have any documents you want to give us that you haven't given us already? I have sent you two letters and they didn't show up on the website. I assume you've received them? Yeah, they don't show up on the website yet because I have them here. Okay. To enter into the record, once they're entered into the record, then we'll put them up on the website. That's fine. So there's two letters and you're putting them on the list. Yeah, there's one from July 13th and then an email from April 15th. Okay. All right. I asked Josh, he's got, he printed them. He says it's on the record. Okay. I let the record reflect that he's done it on the record. Okay, so tell us what you want to tell us. Okay. I'll try to give it short to the point. T.H.7, as survey in the town survey, it's about a 1300 foot road that goes from actually the middle of the dam on Duger Brook, the road past our house. It ends on our property. It does not extend past our property line. The major issue with us is that ever since we've lived there, and that is the 70s. Several times a year, somebody comes up the driveway at a high rate of speed, usually four wheeler, dirt bike, or mud truck. It depends. We get some days, some years are busier than others, but with, oh, it's a concern, it's especially a concern now because we got, how many grandkids, a hundred? Let me think, six, seven, eight, nine, that are out there playing it in the driveway. So for us, it's now a hazard. It's more than an inconvenience at the threat. So we're requesting that you throw it up from what I've read, what I've heard, most people that are opposed to this assume that the road goes beyond the survey limits. My contention is no. It stops on our land. It's a dead-end road. Part of it is our driveway, and I don't think it's of any use to the town and if anything, it's a hazard to my family. So that's it, short and sweet. Thank you. Any questions by the board of care? Wouldn't, I don't, when you purchased the property, did you know that road was there? I didn't purchase the property. It's been the family of four generations. Never been posted. So I inherited it. So I did not buy it knowing that a road was there. Okay. Sure. Mr. Schultz, you referred a couple of times to a survey. Is there a formal certified survey of the property that includes the road? Yes, it's in the town records. Recorded in the land records? Yes. Have we had that submitted as, I don't know if that's part of the record. I know Reed has supplied us with a lot of different maps. That's different than a survey. There's a file that Marge Garfield put together and she references the survey, but we do not have this survey in that package. Oh. Okay. Yeah, we should know. The town's ancient roads, tea and stuff. I think the ancient roads file stuff is in that Google folder. Yeah. So I don't have the surveys. Maybe it isn't. Yeah, I'm not sure. Let me just say. Maybe. I forgot my file with all the stuff in it. Let me just ask quickly, General. If it's the survey, if it's in the town records, it's a matter of public record. Sure. Can we do a need to? Do we need to? Public record. Public record. Oh, yeah. So we can take notice of it, but can we put it in the record? We close the hearing. Can we just put it on the record? Point of information. Yeah. There is an original survey dated to, I believe, 1940. It has some variance in distances. It's part of the town's ancient roads team's work. It's in a file that the town clerk's office. The survey specifically says it goes from the property of Lawrence, York, which was the emitter to Schultz's back in the day, and it goes to the county road. It has some variance in distances that may or may not make it between those two points. Could you just tell us your name for the record? I'm sorry, Paul Handler. Yeah, thank you. It has, it refers specifically to those points, and therefore it must go from point A to point B. So we'll be continuing the hearing, so we can get that and put it in the record and it will go up on the website. Okay, any answer to your question, Mike? I think it will be better practice to locate the survey if there's one and then put it in the record as part of the continued hearing rather than take notice of something that no one here would necessarily have a chance to see. So when we find it, do we send it around to everybody? No, what we do, I think when you find it, you just put it up on the website. Who is going to specifically do that? I'll make sure that we can find it. I think it's probably in the packet of stuff that we have that I forgot to bring the hard copy. There is a copy up here that Paul has. Oh, okay. Paul, do you have it here? Do you want to get it to us? Paul, do you mind relinquishing that copy? No, I've read it. You want me to? Oh, it's fine. Oh boy, it's in that great pan right there. I think it's in the cart of balls. I think it's in that cart file. That I put in the global folder, and it should be online. Okay, so we'll make sure, and I ask you, will you make sure that one way or another it's inscribed in the book, so it's fine. So do I enter this now as a? Yeah, I would mark it, and then we'll enter it at the appropriate time. I have a question about that, but does that verify, Paul, do you know that it verifies that the existing property lines and where that starts and stops, does that, that's New York? Again, I believe New York's were the predecessors to what we've been referring to as the car place, and the county roads, the county road. Okay, I'll tell you what, let's let him, if you want to ask him, let's let him testify. Okay. It'll be hard to follow, it's too much cross talk. Okay, Gary, is there anything else you want to say? I just have one thing. Paul, when you GPS that road for the Agent of Roads file, and you note on your report that it was a short survey, in other words, it didn't go to our property line, that's part of the record to the car file. Well, I'll tell you what, we'll ask Paul to testify. Is there anything else, Gary, you want to say? No, I didn't quite understand where he was coming from, but I've never found any relation, correlation between what the car farm and York's property. Thank you. Anything else? Okay, thanks a lot. Thank you. Gary, anybody else from this family who wished to testify, please come up, raise your right hand, these where are from what you're about to say is the evidence you're about to give us in the truth and all truth and nothing but the truth. Yes, I do. Wouldn't it be easier to talk to them? This is Josh Schultz to. Wouldn't it be easier to just do everything else? Yeah, all right, and I did everybody last time, but I think you want to testify. I've been on advice of counsel. Okay. So, tell us your name again. Yeah, my name is Joshua Schultz. And you're living in the police of Greenlit. 2957 Duger Brook Road. It's right across the road from Mom and Dad's property. Grew up in Mom and Dad's house, so lived there for my whole life. So, first off, I just wanted to testify, so with regard, and I have submitted my testimony in writing, I just had a couple of things I thought I'd make mention too, but the survey does mention it's 1,386 feet long. It's very clear in the survey where it starts, and that's down by the old dam down to the drug road between actually where I live now and Mom and Dad's house and my house, part of my house used to be the old office for that old mill that used to be run by that dam. Being the house you live in now. The house I live in now, yeah, on Duger Brook Road. And the survey actually is very clear about that point. And then it says it goes up, it gives it your rods, but it's 0.26 miles, 1,086 feet up, which terminates that road well within Mom and Dad's property boundary. I can't throw or rock and hit the other, hit the boundary with the current lumberjack folks that own that property, the Buddy and Mom and Dad's from where the survey point ends, that 1,386 feet ends. And I think during our walk, we saw that, but the road TH7 has been delineated as long as anybody's had record, like in the town records, which I think they started about, I think in 1930s there was a map, but really 1941 is the first one I could find in the archives where we could start seeing, like the town was submitting maps to AOT, and it had to designate as untraveled UNT for years, and well over, probably it's been untraveled for probably over 100 years. When my dad used to come up and play, when he was a kid, my grandparents owned the property, he'd tell stories about walking through a creek bed to get to the property where they currently live. And so what house wasn't there, TH7 at that point, you had to walk through a creek bed, and it couldn't even get up, TH7, and that tells me that you couldn't even tell there was a road there back then, and that was in the 1940s. So even back then, a long time ago, this was not a road that was near and dear or loved by anybody in the town. And I know that on the map it shows that there's a road there, but one thing what I was wondering about was, okay, why is this map all of a sudden, why is it, you look at a current map, it shows 0.5 miles, but yet the survey is different. And so I looked into it, I called up AOT, and this is again in my written testimony, but AOT first off told me, they're like, look, just because a road, it shows up on a map doesn't mean anything. They said this is not a legal means of establishing a road, so they're like, okay, but I'm still confused how come that 0.5 mile suddenly shows up, and we looked at the archives and found it in 1973 is when that first 0.5 mile delineation was given. And again, I asked him, do you know, like is there anything in your records that shows where that came from? And they looked and all of a sudden they said, oh, I think we found it. And they looked at the, I think it was the 1973 listing that the town sent to the state. And in there it says for the first time it crosses off the previously, for the 1941 to 1973, the UNT, the Untraveled, and suddenly it says 0.5 miles. And it asked like how that was arrived at, it says scaled. And so what happened was a town official, when AOT said, yeah, they scaled it off the map. So they put a scale on a map, which is an engineering scale, you know, foot long. They put on the map and they saw that it was 0.5 miles, and they just wrote 0.5 GH7. So they didn't take the time, and back then in 1941, not sure anybody did, I don't know, but they didn't take the time to look at the survey, cross-reference anything. They just wrote 0.5. So that was kind of a good mystery that was solved for me. And again, AOT, they didn't tell me, they said that's not illegal, you know, scaling a road on a map is not illegal means of establishing a roadway in Vermont. And they said that, they said, you know, so I thought that was really good information. So it's kind of 0.5 miles versus the quarter-mile survey. I've noticed, like, with other folks that have written in and kind of like opposing the discontinuance, I've noticed a lot of them are kind of, are based on kind of a lot of like, what is scenarios? And, you know, things like, you know, ecological disease or ecological, you know, rehabilitation or, you know, restoration. And the road isn't a passable road and it hasn't been that way for over, at least 80 years, but probably, again, probably over 100 years. And you can't even walk on it. And I sort of like scratched my head a little bit at that. And then, well, first of all, the road, the survey doesn't go beyond mom and dad's property. So that's the first, you know, kind of the folks that oppose or kind of thinking the road goes up beyond their property. But even with what it is, it's really not accessed. It's not accessible. This is not a good access to that land back there. And that's why nobody uses it. People don't walk it, people don't ski it. They just, it's just, it's not a pleasant stroll. Folks that do want to access that, they either access it from the Woodbury Mountain Road or before it was posted, they'd come in from the Worcester side, the Calis Worcester Road. But it's just not a road that's been accessible over the years. In fact, I've racked my brain. I can count probably five people in my entire life and probably not even that, honestly. And dad doesn't recall anybody either over his many years. So I think it's safe to say that over 75 years, you have a very, very small handful of people that even tried to venture up there. Been walking. Been walking, yeah. And so, it's not sounding like this road that's loved by the town. In fact, most people, even the folks that wrote in opposing it, hadn't even really walked on the road before they submitted their letters. Sorry, I know there's some, and they're all good people, by the way. Like, these are good towns, these are my neighbors. And I have nothing against them in any way. But some of them did walk the road during the June 11th walk. And I think kind of saw like, this was really washed out. I mean, it would take a very significant effort and probably a bulldozer and other things right through mom and dad's front yard to reestablish a roadway. And you can't even tell there was a road in certain places of mom and dad's yard that would have to get kind of demolished to get our travel way up there. And then it goes through wet areas. There's a brook going down the road now. So there's a lot of disturbance that would have to happen. And just, you know, playing out these what-is scenarios that folks have kind of laid out to the board. And it just kind of made me sort of scratch my head about the realisticness of that. I mean, you know, and one thing I've learned over the years is that when I make decisions for my family, is that I can't reach out. Like, I want to establish, I want to leave a legacy for my family, but I've realized I can't reach out from the grave. I can only reach out so far, I'll say. And I have to make decisions for my family that serve us best in the here and now. You know, with an eye towards the future, but like, it's really, right now, I feel like looking at history, looking at current situations, this road has not been something that's been near and dear to anybody's hearts in the town of Calvis. And even the folks that do hunt on it, I know Paul Hannon has asked permission to hunt on mom and dad's land. And dad says, sure, go up and hunt on it. And with the exception of the time he GPS'd it, even Paul, I don't think, really spent a lot of time on TH7. I think it's just not a very easy road to walk. And I can't go back and Paul's, I'm just using God bless him because he was here talking, but other folks that have accessed their land to hunt don't use TH7 to do so. And then I guess I just, I know that during the ancient roads process, it was fairly recent, there was a pretty heavy sentiment across the town to discontinue a lot of roads that were ancient roads. And I believe that same sentiment exists today, it wasn't that long ago. And I believe the town has kind of voiced their opinion on, hey, we want to stand with our landowners. And so I think that that still exists today with folks and with landowners and the people like us that are impacted, my kids that are impacted every day. And I guess I'll just, I just wanted to kind of close out, I guess, with this, is that is that I think if, I know the board's not gonna vote today, I know, but if, hypothetically speaking, the board voted today and discontinued TH7, I think 50 years from now, nobody is gonna care. I, except for the Schultz. I think that 10 years from now, nobody's gonna care. I can tell you that tomorrow morning, if the board voted today, right now, but discontinued TH7, it was discontinued. I think tomorrow morning, I think pretty much most everybody except for the Schultz in this room is probably gonna wake up, they might give it a quick thought and they're gonna drink their coffee and they're gonna move on with their lives. Certainly nobody seems to show much love for TH7 now, except for the Schultz and nuisance ATVs and things like that, but which is in my written testimony and my dad's as well. But the people that will, if the board voted tomorrow morning, I can tell you one thing that's gonna happen is that there's gonna be four adults. I know Charlie and Jenny, my sister, myself and my wife, prison, we're gonna wake up probably with tears in our eyes and there'll be tears of joy because for the first time, we can, our kids can be over there playing in that road and not have to worry about a mud truck or an ATV driving up and plowing over a kid because they might be been drinking or in the middle of the night, when there's movie night at grandma and grandpa's and the kids are over there and they go to sleep and at two o'clock in the morning, all of a sudden there's headlights and loud noises in the driveway and dad's getting up, what's going on out there and the kids are waking up crying and that will, I believe that will go away and then for future generations of Schultz's as well, those kids, those future kids are gonna be served and I can tell you that also tomorrow morning that this happened, mom and dad, grandparents are gonna wake up with tears in their eyes also with tears of joy because we've been waiting a long time for this. Dad came to the select board and I know there was a conversation, I don't think there was ever a formal petition but it was a conversation that started but it's since that time, I think in the 70s I think it's in the town records in the file but since that time until now, nothing's happened, the town hasn't used it, nobody's used it and it's just time to clean this up. It's time to clean this road up, get it off the map and put this to bed and I know people talk about assets but I'll just say it, I think our most precious asset in the town are the assets of our children and that's the town's future and I can tell you that we're raising our kids and I hope that they wanna stay in this town, we've got, there are 11 grandkids so far, 11 grandkids and I think between 11 kids we're gonna, it's a pretty safe bet, there's gonna be some Schultz's in the town for a while and future generations I mean and we're gonna live on the family homestead, that property, that area that we've kind of carved out and we're good, I think, you know, speaking, I think we're good people in the town, we contribute, we help out and we're asking the town to stand by us and help us just make this safer, just get this cleaned up please and let us go to bed at night and not think about this anymore, let our kids go out there and play on the driveway and their bikes and us not think about this stuff anymore and that's my plea and I thank you all for taking the time to listen to, to me and my family. Thank you, Josh. I have questions of Josh from members of the board. Josh, I have any questions? I have a quick one, you know, and it's interesting after walking that road and it's clearly, you know, we've been on roadways, I work, that's untenable as a viable road, I'm amazed even a mud truck can get up there and it's sort of a skitter and that would be skirting the sides of that go way. I mean, do you, do people, they immediate offer that when they use it and they can imagine getting any? No, they don't, they can't, they turn around and mom and dad's driveway and they do it. That's what I wanted to do, the same thing is, on the one hand they're telling us nobody comes and on the other mud trucks or ATVs, like what do they do? They just see it on the map and they go up like, and what they do is they say, oh, this is someone's driveway and this is when they're, they don't know that till they get, you can't see mom and dad's house from the road, so they don't know that, they just see a line on the map and honestly, even if it was a trail, even if it was designated trail, they're gonna see that on the map and they're gonna be like, oh, I didn't get on that trail and they're gonna pull into the driveway thinking that's why we're asking for a full discontinue, it's not a downgrade to a trail because they're still gonna see that dash line on the map and they're gonna go up through there and then they realize, because if you guys, well, I know that the walk wasn't admissible as evidence but I'll explain it, when you get up to their driveway, the road goes straight but there is a brass mowed, manicured hill there and they see that and they don't, I think they don't, they decide like, we are not going to go up and tear up this person's yard and I think they may think it's a mistake. Most of the time, they're turning around and peeling out the driveway before we get a chance to go out and eat nicely and say, hi, can we help you? They're on their way out but it's still a, it's a, you know. How often does this happen to you? I can't give you a, I know last fall it happened, in fact, one of them broke down at the end too and they were parked there for a while. We didn't, again, we're not anti-people, like we didn't call the police or anything, they broke down at the bottom and they parked their car, I went down and just jawed down the license plate number just for my own good, just because I didn't, you know, there's a stranger, but I was up in the middle of the night because there were headlights coming down Mom and Dad's driveway and my wife was nursing out this child, our other child that's home watching Lion King for the 728th time this month. And, but I, in middle of the night, I'm looking out with binoculars through the darkened trees because there are headlights and I could see people walking. They had just come off Mom and Dad's driveway and we called Mom and Dad to make sure they were okay. You know, like if someone just came down their driveway. Is this once a year, once a month? Three or four times, yeah, three or four times a year, is that it? Yeah, yeah. Any other questions? John? Just, I wanna hear from Josh. I did venture out on the road twice. I went out with the Calis Trails Committee in the spring and then as part of this process, I took the walk. But I wanna hear from you, Josh. In terms of what you've discussed regarding the survey length of the road, 80's, 84 rods, 0.26 miles according to the Calis H. U. Roads Team file. That entire length, let's say starting with the county road, how much of that is visible in the landscape? Is it the entire length visible? Are segments visible? Yeah, so segments are visible. If there, I will say this, if there was not a known road there, we didn't know there was a line on the map. And I was walking through the woods and I saw the ravine that exists there as TH-7. I would not know that that was a road. I would have looked at that if, so this was just a mountain side. And I would say, I would think that that was just a washed out gully from a brook that didn't come down. So, now knowing that it's a road, people say, oh, there's a road here. It's washed out. The road's washed out because it's washed out areas right there. So, if the ravine is an indicator, I would say there's a significant portion that is not visible as a traveled road. Probably like as a percentage, probably like 60 to 70%. There are certainly areas right by mom and dad's house that are clearly, you do not know there's a road there at all, completely invisible. There's a, it's a mowed lawn. It was, it was like that. Mom and dad bought the property. Dad just, you know, raked it and planted grass kind of thing, you know? And, but I will say this too, mom and dad's driveway closely resembles TH-7 or is on the old alignment, but dad was telling me that it wasn't exactly on the alignment. And we don't know exactly where the road was, but dad said, he goes, you know, looking at kind of the area. Dad's like, he thinks he remembers that probably kind of favored if he was guessing a little bit in a little bit, like towards the North, but he didn't really know. And you couldn't even really tell back then there was a road there. Dad said, he was like telling me, I'm telling us from stories that dad's told me over the years, but that couldn't really tell TH-7 was there when they were building their house. And even when he was a kid, so they built a driveway and had to put in a culvert. That's in the record that he has to be over bringing. Thank you. Any other questions? Thank you very much. You're welcome. I have the letters in writing, but it looks like you guys have them. Yeah, I have all of the documents you sent. Yes, that's what this is. Yeah, this was July 14th's letter. Yep. And with this map. That map, yeah. And then all these other attachments. Thank you for telling me what UNT stands for. Yes, you're very welcome. One title? I'm trapped. Thank you very much. Thank you all very much. Yeah, pleasure. Okay, is there any other member of the Schultz family who wished to testify at this point? Okay, who else would like to testify? I guess there is some information that I need that involves in asking people to testify. So we, Sharon, could you come up and answer some questions for us? My way of explanation reads supply some maps to us. The maps are in the record. I'm going to use this. And then enter it again. Oh, we've been wronged. So I wonder, I don't know, is this different than? That's just a couple of oversize. But it's what you already, what I already think. Yeah, there are. Yeah, I think for purposes what I'm gonna do, I was just gonna suggest that you can ask the question. And then we can mark up his copy of your copy and that can be bill and deed. Great, okay. So do you feel an extra copy of Reed's packet? There were five. You know what happened to the fifth? He wasn't there. Or were there six? I don't remember. Okay. It should be in the, in with the exhibit. That's Joe's six of us. What Reed sends is in with the exhibits. Okay, what I will do is make sure, we'll make sure we'll get you a copy. If I get it right off the town, what's it? Yeah, but it's nice that it was. Yeah, but I mean, it'll put it out on the issue, right? It'll look exactly the same as this. You use where the testimony, you're about to give us the truth on this. I do. So which copy do you want to use? Mine, we can use mine. Actually, not a bad idea. Okay, Reed, what I want you to do is take this, and I want you to mark on it, on each map, if you would, just a circle. Actually, do we have a color, and here, a huge row spread, and here. Yeah, that's good. If you would just make a small circle on each map around the T8 set, that's all with a point of information, and then initial your little circle. Okay, just make a little circle around T7 on the map. Oh, where it is. Yeah, where it is. And while he's doing that, I'm just, by way of explanation, to everybody in the audience, if this is a bit tedious. What I noticed when I looked at these maps is that on some of the early maps, for the life of me, I couldn't find the road. And so, I just figured, since he supplied these maps, he's making this, and what we'll do, if any, I don't know how we're gonna make this available. Well, we can scan it, and we'll scan it, and we'll put it in color, and post it on the website. We'll scan it in color, and post it on the website. Do we have any ability to scan in color in the town offices? Yeah, or I can do it at home. I have a color, thanks. I do have a question while we're doing that. Documents for the record, from people that aren't here, at some point, do you want me to go over? Yes. What they are in the different? Yes. That's gonna be hard to see on that point. No, he's doing that, Paul, do you feel that, is there anything about the survey that you gave us that you need to tell us? Yeah, I'll go ahead. Okay, I'll have you come up to that. Okay, yeah, I don't want to twist your arm. No, no, no. Not bad. Kids are being so quiet. That's amazing. I know, well, that's why we're moving away. There's an end to that. Yeah, yes. When they've had enough, we'll know it. Did everybody sign in while we're doing this? So, yeah, for the minutes, and where did my... Just initial with everything. And where did my sign in? Did she end up? Right here. All right, I'll read you. Okay, thanks. When you're done, go back and put your initials there, sir. Very interesting. Is it appropriate for a member of the public just to ask a question for clarification? Oh, a witness? I think so, probably Gary or Josh. And I apologize, but we may never explain this, and I just missed it. Yeah, okay. Wait, wait, wait, just a second. It might be better just for organizational purposes if we can just finish with read and then take a question, I think it'll be better. Right, and then we can have... That way we're clear about... No, no, no, it'll be in the minutes. Okay, right. I'm working on launching Lion King for the 728th time. Well, two and four, both of them are. I call them all. No, oh no, Nana Power. Do you have a baby ponder? Yeah. I brought it with you. Yes. Modern technology, yes. They're eating popcorn watching life, and they're in a glory. I'm gonna go sit with them. It sounds way more fun. Yeah. They have ancient roads, right? Yeah. Thank you. What I'm now, before you go, and then this is gonna be entered into the record. Yeah, read before you go. Is there anything you want to tell us about these maps? Well, the ones I, these all came off, the Vermont Highway Environment website, with the exception of the first two, which are Wallings, 1858 map, and Beers, 1873 map. Those are standard references for privately published town maps. Then I started, I didn't copy every map that was on file of Calis Town Rows. It was on file, those are annual things. But they, I understand that they started doing this keeping town highway maps in Montpelier in 1931. And interestingly enough that the road is shown at that time, going all the way to the Worcester town line with the mileage 1.1. Which map is that for you? It's a town highway map. Date is, that's the one that you've dated, which one? 1831? 1931. 1931, yeah. Is that a Beers map or an official town highway map? No, I think it's an official town highway map. It's the only one they had dated 1931. I knew that was the first year. In 1933, that's the same situation going all the way in the Worcester town line, mileage 1.1, and there's a aerial photograph of the map. Is that the 1942 one? The 1942, I have one in my personal possession, 1963, but it doesn't show nearly as much as this 1942 one. And then the subsequent maps are just, When does the aerial photograph show? It shows that neighborhood, going all the way over to Hawkins Pond, so near the Worcester town line. Which is the Worcester town line on your lead? You can't see it, it's invisible. The reason there's a visible line around Lumberjack LLC's property is that my family used to own that and my father had put a pencil line on his boundary. So that's, that particular part is very clear, because that's not an original part of the map. Is the house shown on the left, slightly upper left of this thing? Is that the location of the current house? Where are you from? The current house wasn't built yet. Yeah, right, so what's this? I don't know, I couldn't have been able to identify it. Yeah, okay. And then the line extending from it, is that what you think is the road? Yeah. And goes into the property, to the car, which is not wooded at that point. Right. Got it. And it seems to stop just short of the house and then the barn is behind the house. And when you say house, is that this, where you circled it here in red, is this, what is this? What, does that circle the whole thing? Just say this, say what it is so we know. Okay, I don't know, I don't know what it is, that's why I'm asking. You have this part here circled in red and there's a blob here. Yeah, that could well be the site of the Schultes house, but I don't know if I can. Yeah, okay, but the road is that line. Where's County Road on here? Yeah. Is this County Road right here? So what are you saying, is this road here is County Road? Right. Anything else? No, the other maps just show changes over the years. There's kind of somewhat a random sampling. I don't know at what point, I don't think, they didn't seem to have a map on file for every year or something. I don't think they have a map. I don't think they do have one over here. Yeah, and so it skips around a bit after. After it's shortened down. You know, not going to the town, the Worcester town line. I think what I've got here in 1933, the last map I could find that showed the road going all the way to the Worcester town line. On this 2015 one, you did the circle where County Road was. It's pretty tiny. And then, yeah, you can initial it. Okay. All right, thank you. Read anything else you want to tell us? Can't think of anything right now. Okay. Thank you. Larry, do you have a two? Thank you. Larry, do you have a question about one of the witnesses who's already gone? I have an idea for the next question, or Gary. Did you come out here? Come out here. I'm sorry, please. Okay. Can I come up with a second question to you? Oh, okay. Right now. I'm going to get it. You, Larry. Okay, Larry, so what's your name? Present the question to me. I'll ask the questions. My name is Larry Bullish. I'm living in Calis. I'm on the Conservation Commission. We made a submission about this, but we still have it under consideration. And if this was explained, Gary, you guys talked about, I missed it, I apologize to everybody. But I was just curious about the survey. Gary, you first, and it's been talked about a lot. I didn't understand what kind, when it was done, what was it done for? And is it in the record, or would it be? That you did miss it. Paul Hannon provided the survey to us, and I'm going to ask Paul to come up now and talk about it. Okay, so Paul, I'm going to talk about the same thing. Okay, I think my question should be answered. Paul, would you come up? Paul, you want to tell us your name, and then I'll swear you in. My name is Paul Hannon. I live in South Calis. It's warmer there. Much warmer. Do you affirm that they haven't served out to give us the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? I do. Thank you. You want to tell us about the survey, Paul? What you know? You need it? Sure, yes, I do. What I'd like to do if it's okay, is to tell it in the context of what else I had to say. Please. Can I get to it? Sure. Go ahead, right? So, full disclosure, I've spent a lot of time dealing with ancient roads. It's part of my profession. I think I can say I've never met a properly laid out town road that I wanted to see this continue. So, I have a bias. It's on the table, yeah, right there. I think they're public assets. I think, regardless of their condition, they are something that the town acquired over time, often paid for in one form or another, either by forgiving. Anyway, the point is they're public assets, and it doesn't matter to me at all whether you can drive it now or not. A little context for the town highway maps. Josh is absolutely correct. They have no legal standing per se whatsoever. They are an expression of what the town believed at the time the map was produced. They started in 1931, as someone else said. And the deal in 1931, prior to 1931, there was no state aid to town highways. No money flowed from the state. The town raised all its own money to take care of its roads. So, four or five years after the flood of 27, the state said, we got a deal for you. We're gonna give you some money, but you gotta map these roads. And you gotta map the roads you're willing to maintain to quote, pleasure car staffs. So, at least unless the select word was lying in 1931, at least as late as, recently as 1931, in theory somebody could drive a pleasure car up there. So, uptown line, we said. A lot has happened since 1931. And I absolutely don't question. I have not been up there in recent memory. Both Gary and Josh are right. I've hunted that land a lot. I've hunted the Lumberjack LLC land. I've basically been all over it. So, yes, I know in general what the condition of the road is, and it's not great. But nonetheless, the road was laid out in 1840. This is where the survey comes in. There are two ways that roads can be established in Vermont. One is by a proper layout and opening by the select board, which I believe this document does. The other is something called dedication and acceptance. And there may not be a document as we're expecting or hoping to see like this one in the records, but it's possible somewhere in the records there's an explanation for how it went from 0.26 to 0.5. In other words, the count may have just done work on it. They may have put a culvert in, they may have pulled gravel, they may have, there may be a reason for it, but that doesn't, to me, that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter vis-a-vis where the road goes across Schultz's land or whether that section should be discontinued or not. The layout document has a series of bearings and distances and the Schultz's have been focusing on that and I understand that. It's one of the harder things for a survey or a, a new surveyor to get used to, which I don't know if I mentioned that is my profession. But it's very hard, the one I'm about to say is very hard for a layperson to accept. And that is a monument, call for a monument is more important than the distance or bearing stated in the document that's telling you to go from 0.8 to 0.5. So, and the reason I say it's hard for young surveyors to accept that is we're measures, gosh, we ought to be able to get that right and ought to be really important. But what's really more important is what is the, what is the thing? What is the thing on the ground? And in this case, it's clearly telling you to go from Lorenzo York's land to the county road. So I have not done a research, but I believe March Garfield did and she did this, this cart these work for the ancient roads team. And so regardless of what the distances and bearings say, the goal of the select board in 1840 was to get you from York's land to the county road. So I'm not the least bit troubled way of some gap that you can or can't throw a baseball to cover. It was supposed to be here, it was supposed to be here. Where is Lorenzo York's land? Well, I see it in the diva, where is it? Yeah, I believe that it's the Lumberjack LLC on the so-called car property that Reed used to own there. So that part is not really material. As far as, so. I have to interrupt you, I just want to repeat. I want to reflect back to make sure I understand. You're saying you as a surveyor believe that the most important thing to look for is the beginning and end, the called out points and what they are. Exactly. And that there could be for any number of reasons you're saying that the distances to be marked in the survey are correct or incorrect, but that we know and can identify the two called out points. That's what happened. Exactly. Okay, and we know that the Schultz property was not owned by Lorenzo York at that time. I don't know that at this point, but those properties have been in separate ownership. I would have to look at my lot line overlay, but I think it might be a lot line, the original town lot line in there. So, and then the issue about, so you have all these town highway maps coming forward for 1931. Again, they're just an expression of what the town believes they have rights to. What happened, the reason you saw some activity in 1973 is that that's which I think Josh referenced sort of went from UNT to class four, is that that's the first year that this whole classification system that we're all so conversant in now existed, didn't exist before that. The town highway maps prior to that have designations on them, untraveled being one, different surfaces, but they didn't break them down in the class two, three, four. That wasn't my question, that's what you're talking about. Until 1973. So if you look, it doesn't matter what town it's in, dozens of towns. If you look back through the records, that's when it happened. There's often correspondence that explains that. So it's not surprising that there was a switch. There's something different happened in the 1973 map. I don't have a whole lot. I live at the end of the dead end road. And I get people coming, driving up, rubber nagging all the time. More than three or four times a week. Oh, your parents? At my place. But it is what it is. I mean, that's what, that's what, you know, I love living at the end of the dead end road. It's a through road. People, people, and I, just for the record, not for the record, but just to make a point, I spent three days in the town clerk's office before I bought my place, making real sure that it never went through. Now, I'm not your average person. I know about these things. So I'm not suggesting everybody should have, should have, well, maybe they should. But I know my, my, my road ended one rod and eight links off the Northwest corner of my house. So I, I would say occasionally I get some bad behavior type drivers coming up, but I'm not convinced that bad behavior is, makes great public policy. Yes, you should deal with the bad behavior, but I don't think you should discontinue the road. I think you also, I know you've got a letter from the Lumberjack folks, and I think as much as the Schultz's would like to see their land enhanced by not having this road. I think the Lumberjack folks would be doing a real disservice to them if you suddenly said, this other access to your road, to your property that you may or not be using now is foreclosed against you. You can't use it anymore. Just to get into the weeds a little bit on the road law. There is a provision that says a properly discontinued road that served, it was the sole means of access to part or all of a person's property. That person maintains a private right to use that discontinued road. If that were to prevail, the, the Lumberjack folks could use it. I don't think it would prevail because of the type of access that the Lumberjack property has, has from Woodbury Mountain and the type of terrain it is. I think when they say part or all of your land is in the law, it's anticipating someone with a big piece of property or a piece of property with a huge ravine in the middle or some ledges that you just can't get over and yet, oh look, over here, there's a perfectly good discontinued road that would serve that part of the property. As I said, I've been all over that Lumberjack land and it's not bad. It's not topographically challenged. I don't know of any bigger beams that would prevent other than town highway stuff. They, they have access to their property. They have great access off the Woodbury Mountain road. That was an interesting question. Yeah. To the entire parcel of what you're saying. Well, again, in a legal sense, I think the answer to that is yes, I'm not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, but nonetheless, I think, I think in a legal sense, yes, and in a practical sense, yes, because of the terrain, because of the type of land it is, they don't, it's not the sole means of access to part of their land. Well, we know from when Reid took us on the walk that he and his brothers used to push hard around the park place and they accessed up on the Woodbury Mountain road. Could I ask that question? No. How did you get up here and he said, oh no, we came down from the woodbury mountain? Is there any, Paul, anything else before I ask people for questions? No, I just, you know, again, I feel like I'm not gonna re-fight the battle I lost 12 years ago, but I think the mass discontinuance was a bad decision. I think that Calus, the team that was put together had their hearts in the right place, but they started from the premise of, and these are not talking about roads that were invisible. The unidentified corridors that were mass discontinued were a total gotcha. In other words, you bought a piece of land, somebody like me goes and finds a road that goes through your door yard and you never had a hint, you couldn't see it, you couldn't know a magic, it wasn't on the town highway map and it was a real gotcha situation. Knock, knock, here come the ATVs. That's not the situation here. After that batch got mass discontinued by the town, the next batch were ones that you could see and that there were layouts of and they did have illegal documents but they didn't appear on the town highway map. So the decision that the town made on a one by one basis was what are we gonna do with those roads? The team, again, I think well-intentioned started with the position of if the landowner doesn't want it, we're not gonna recommend it and I, again, I think that was a bad policy decision because these are assets, they have potential for future use, they have potential for walking trails, hiking trails, hiking trails and access to people's land and I just think it's, I think foreclosing access to somebody's land is a bad thing. Thank you. So. Question. I just went back and looked at that before, by the way. So yeah, I just wanna make sure that I understand the final point that you were making, Paul. So it's come up a couple of times, the history around ancient roads or that's the four field transport and the unidentified roads and your point is that how we thought about those, that set of roads in 2012 is, that's a whole other issue. These, this road is on the map, nobody's disputing it's been on the map. So it's not an ancient road, doesn't really belong in that conversation. Am I putting words in your mouth? No, if you are, I appreciate it. That's exactly the point. This, I heard Gary, I didn't hear an equivalent, a solid answer, but the road was there in 1970 or whenever Gary moved in. Read on the land up above, he knew the road was there. The road's on the town highway map and there's a legal layout of it. It's a whole different situation than what we were dealing with back in 2012. Well, that's why we're here today, that's why we're here today. Thank you very much. I have one other question. No, thank you. I have one other question. Is there any representative of Lumberjack here? Is there anyone else who would like to testify? Come back up, you're just pouring in, sit down. Just rebuttal testimony. No, just real fast, just because, well, first of all, just I know the question about Lumberjack and the access. They have accessed the land, a buddy of mom and dad's property for forever. Everybody who's owned that property from Woodbury Mountain Road. So just to kind of get that on record historically. And then Paul, I think he kind of said that as far as he knew, but just to make sure from the Schultz's perspective, nobody has ever gone up to each side to access that abutting property. And it's been untraveled, designated as untraveled since 1941 when the record started, like Paul Hannon said. So even back in 1941, it was an untraveled road. It was unused. And that aligns with the stories my dad told me. And then the only other thing I just wanted to say is I've heard this a lot over the, because we've been to, I've been to a lot of meetings, playing commission meetings, conservation commission meetings, ancient, sorry, trails committee meetings, talking about this. And I hear it a lot where folks have said, I've heard it two or three times now anyway, where they're like, well, I live on a class four road, the dead ends or doesn't dead end. It's not a big deal. It's not a problem. And I'm sitting there thinking to myself, but it's not, it's just to speak for our, our experience with our kids and our family. That's not our experience. Our experience is quite the opposite. So I just wanted to kind of like you guys, I don't know if I said that clearly. I probably did, but that's all. I thought it was very clear. Okay, all right. That's all I had. Thanks, Josh. Is there anyone, thank you, Josh. Is there anyone else who would like to testify? We will continue this. So part, we're continuing it, just have to make double sure. Okay, just a second. Okay. We're gonna continue this just to make double sure so that we need to put more material in the record. We can, because just to say it, this is not like, you know, a lot of the legislation, legislative things that we do day in and day out. We have to make a decision based on the record in front of us. We can't take anything else into account. We can't, you know, if someone meets this in the parking lot and says, we can't do that. That's gotta be in front of us. So that's why we're being so careful and sure that whatever might be there is in front of us. Yes. There, there, there. Did you want to say anything? Just one quick thing. There is apparently some concern that what I'm trying to do is limit access to our property, that's not the case. It's never been posted to four generations and never will be as far as I'm concerned, but like Josh said, we're beginning to reach out and agree on this so far. But if I wanted to now, and I wanted to limit access, I could post our property and I could fence off the survey portion of TH7. So what you would want to town would wind up with is a quarter mile dead end trip. And I have no desire to do that. It's just, it's within my rights to do it, but I don't want to limit access to our land. It's been wide open, that's it. I do have a question for either of you. Am I right, I just want to make sure I'm right. Is it your position that the fact of the road being on a map contributes to the number of people who come running in with ATVs or whatever? If it was not on a map, you don't think people would pull into your driveways and do the same thing. That's your position, right? That's our position and I can't tell you that. You know, the eyes I draw do, you know, look, where's the road? Show me here on the map. Yeah, thank you. The road works, right? You know, the trail also shows, you know, so it's that way. There's no way to take it off the map now, though. Okay, well, eventually the mutters, look, they have maps. Reed, Reed, would you stand up so we can hear? Yeah. I just want to confirm what you said. You'll still be taking written testimony? Yes, we're still taking written testimony. There'll be some notice on the hands. Yes, what we'll do is we will, in a very noisy way, we will close here. Okay, so what we're going to do is continue this to a certain point, should we continue? Well, so long as it's going to take, I guess. I understood this was the last day, and we noticed it as the last day of taking that notice. Well, hang on, though. That's what the notice is. What I understood is the biggest reason that we're leaving it open is because we were getting testimony or input, I'll say, as today, that we really haven't even had a chance to look at, and looking at the next step is for the board to have a chance to deliberate with all the information, and in that process, questions could emerge, and we could discover that we have a different memory, or a different interpretation, or we're missing something, and so leaving our cells room, it doesn't mean people can't submit more, but leaving our cells room to actually request information, and that's what we're doing, is giving ourselves time, so we don't, so once we start deliberating, if we have questions, we don't want to have to reopen the hearing. I guess my question is process, so we don't have to set a date, we're certainly for everybody to come back, but we need to pick a date for the board to meet, to deliberate, if we have additional questions, we could then notice, you know. I think we're gonna set a date certainly, and if there's nothing more to say when that date certain arrives, you'll close the hearing, and then we'll start to look. And if we don't have any questions. And if there's no questions. If there are questions. In the meantime, are we going to deliberate in the meantime? Yes. We can. We can. And that's my question. So if we can start to deliberate, if we think we need additional information, then we would re-notice that we need this information and have another continued public hearing. You may do that. It may be the board itself that puts evidence in the record. You may find that you need a map, or you need some other piece of information that's germane to the question. So it may be that it's not anyone who's participating today, but the board itself recognizes like, oh, we need that state, the current state highway map to reference. Nobody's put it in the record. Let's make sure it's in the record. So the board could put it in. So this just gives you one last opportunity to put into the record anything the board might need, and anything else that anyone else might have for your consideration. And when that's done, you can ask, is anyone else have anything else they'd like to testify about, or the exhibits? If the answer's no, the hearing is closed. If the answer's yes, you take it. So Paul Hannon made reference to what I think characterized as an unfortunate decision to mass discontinue, what I call invisible, unidentified course. And just so you know, that was for your education, Joe, Joseph, that was done by a vote of the town's folks. We, the select board, said we could have made a decision, but we put it in a vote of the town, and it was a two to one vote to mass discontinue. That's all water over the dam, but what I'm interested in is what is the resulting effect of what is an item on a, for this committee's review, in consideration, what is an unidentified quarter in terms of the law at that time, and now, in the case law, maybe, if that applies, and what is the effect of that vote of the town's folks on this? So let's not need to be, so that's something. Let's just be clear about one thing, I think Paul said this. This case has nothing to do with unidentified corridors. This is an identified corridor. It's been identified for a long time. And so none of that statutory language regarding unidentified corridors, the debate that happened previously in town, it's irrelevant to the discussion we're having. So if there's a segment of the road that was not identifiable at the time of that vote, despite being on the map, see, my understanding is. Well, let's talk about it. Yeah, that's why I want clarification on that. So that might be, yeah. I would like to point. So should we come up here? No, I think, I don't think. Let's talk internally. If it turns out that's irrelevant, we'll have them come back. Well, also, we are giving the record open for further written submission. Yeah, right. Right, so. I was going to have all of some written comments on this 1840 survey that you've explained to me. Okay, I'll tell you one thing. One thing at a time, could we pick a day? Yeah, let's pick. A Monday is probably when the board is used to meeting. I don't have my calendar. And I didn't, I forgot my other file, so I don't have a calendar in front of me. But what's just because, you know, it could be not too far from now, but you know. We would regularly be meeting. We have a regular meeting on a week from tonight on the 25th, and we have regular meetings on the 8th and the 22nd of August. Therefore, the first or the 15th is available as not a regular meeting. Why don't we say the 15th? August 15th? I will not be here. We want to do it when you're here. It's going to be September. What about August 1st? Oh, that's fine. Okay. Can we do August 1st? I'll take care of it. Okay. So, Monday, August 1st, here at seven? Yeah. What I think we'd like to do is this is a practical matter. I don't want, first of all, there's no need for anybody to repeat what they've already said. It's on the record. It's been recorded. We actually heard, and might even remember, I think. I think the more important thing is it could be that August 1 will just be a formality. That is, we will have added one or two documents to the record. Right there, and you can see it, what we've added. And we don't need more testimony. In which case, all that's going to happen on August 1st we're just going to move to close the record and that's the end of it. Hang on, now when do we actually deliberate to discover whether we have questions? Wait a minute. Or, we may have questions and want testimony and we'll try to notify people so that you cannot bother to comment it's a formality or you can comment it's real. Now, that's my problem as August 1. Is it too soon because it does not allow us time to deliberate? So, we could deliberate on August 1st. Then it's a private, that's in private. Right, right. So, that's how August 1st is picked. It'll either be deliberation or it'll be deliberations and more testimony. And my question is, we won't know until after we go to September, there's no rush here. Well, so, yeah, so, to me, this is our process, guys. Clearly we need a time where we are just going to meet just us and we're not inviting the public because that's where we surface what are our questions, what are our issues. And then, I guess we have to convene a formal hearing to ask, or can we just outreach to somebody who would have the information we're looking for and ask for the information or ask for a question to be answered, which becomes part of record as something select board submits. We can do that, but if it's in writing, we can do it and it shows up on the board. Well, that's part of my question, is the process. If we get something, if we meet on August 1st and we deliberate, which I would be in favor of, and in between, if somebody would submit something tonight, after tonight, all the other documents that we've got, really, between the first hearing and this, aren't considered part of the public record because we haven't submitted their part on the record. Do they automatically become part of the public record if Paul sends an email explaining what he means about the 8-10-40 survey? I think anything that comes in, in the interim, should be put in the public record. After we convene a hearing, that would be one of the administrative things that would happen. Let's wait till September. This is, we're shoe-horning it into the summer. Everyone's on vacation. She's with him. You know? Actually, people might not want to witness. I think that's fair. You know, we're bumping up against John's vacation. I'm texting my family to say, are we gonna be back on the first? I was wondering. If we, if, That's fine. If we just push it into September, then we are giving, and the board has, you know, we have, I'm also remembering the list of things this long that were also part of shoe-horning, but we're not, tonight we're focused on this, but tonight we're focused on 15 other things. 15 other things we're trying to get done too. So, That's fine. I think if we can all take a breath and say, you know what? This is so great. We can deliberate in September, ask our questions of large questions surface, make sure we have the answers, open one final, hear you, hear you, y'all come before we close the record, right? That's generally the process. But I thought we were gonna have it so that when we met to deliberate, as we're talking amongst ourselves, we might come up with questions. We won't. So we wanna make sure we leave it open. Exactly. So we deliberate. We're on the same page. Absolutely. So what's the first Monday that, we don't have a regular select board meeting in September? Well Labor Day, which, We don't wanna do it then. We don't. So then we have a meeting on the 12th. The first one, if we do not have a meeting in September, is Monday the 19th. Okay, so we wanna do continue. We're gonna meet as a board on that night at 7 p.m. here. And then we'll deliberate. I'm just saying this so people can understand. Everybody can hear. It's the board will meet, deliberate. If after we deliberate, we decide we have anything else that we need from the public, then we'll announce continued hearing date. Right. Does that make sense? Yes. So I wanna give an example. All right. Let's say, we meet on September 19th and we talk it through and we decide that by the way, am I giving this example doesn't mean there's any truth to it. I know. Well, you can't be. Let's say we decide, Paul Hannan said some really interesting things but he admitted he's biased. So we need to hire someone who is a surveyor to be our witness who's a neutral witness and come and do a study and tell us, the same thing Paul Hannan told us, but it's not biased. But not biased. Let's say we did that. And let's say we decided it was worth spending money to do that. If we do that, then we'll, you'll all know we would have them come and if they did a written report and we'd go in the record and we would probably give you all a chance to respond to that. We will not allow some significant piece of evidence to come in and kind of blindside you guys and not have a chance to address them. So that's why we're taking our time. We'll continue. If on the other hand we deliberate, no, we don't, we have everything. Maybe we haven't made up our minds but we don't need anything more. We'll let you know. We'll come out of executive session and we'll just close the hearing. No. No. Not procedurally. We'll give you an executive session or anything like that. No, we would come out. Of deliberations. Right. We have you more under that. Oh, we would have to more. One way or another, you'll know what we're gonna do. So we've set that date and you had a question. I do. I have one comment. Yeah. I'm Charlie Flower. I'm the son of live. My family. You're gonna get sworn in. Yeah. Do you want to test it? Well, it's just more of a volatile comment. Okay. And that's because you promise that your testimony will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I do. Your name for the. Charles Flower. I wanted to comment on something Mr. Hannon said because he's up here admittedly extremely biased, which I applaud him for admitting that. But also as a quasi professional testimony that has a license. That's very. As a licensed surveyor providing some sort for a quasi professional testimony. And I heard one comment as a professional person myself many years in engineering work with surveyors and for surveyors myself. I heard him and I heard him comment and I heard member of the board confirm that that's what he said. He said that he's willing to cast aside and not so many words cast aside bearings and distances that he sees on plans and surveys for what he sees on the ground. And I wanted to comment that that is far from what you would certainly not a universal comment you're gonna find from other licensed surveyors. Matter of fact, I'm sure the licensing board might be happy to hear that come out of your mouth. So I wanted to bring that up to make sure that the board isn't taking his testimony as a professional light as though it's okay to cast aside the survey accepted by the town and instead judge the length of that road based on what we can see. I just want to clarify that Mr. Hannon didn't say that he would cast aside what's in the survey in order to just trust what's on the ground. What he said is that the beginning and end points in the survey. I heard that comment as well. But he also said that what he sees on the ground can be just as important as what he sees on a survey which from my experience. He said the monuments. The monuments that are noted in the survey which are what's on the ground are the anchors maybe that's not a word he used. I might not be understanding correctly. I did not, I agree with Mark. I did not, I did not take it that he was saying you disregard the survey for what you can see out there. You use the survey's guidance on what you will find as monuments to inform and they are more important than the distances. And he gave us a specific example of that. The distances in a survey. Are you a licensed surveyor? No, no, no. Well listen, thank you for your. Thank you, I just wanted to thank you. I appreciate it. Okay, take care.