 Really, really warm welcome to everybody. Thank you so much for joining today's Deep Adaptation Q&A. I'm not Jenpendall, the EagleEyde amongst me may have twittered my name is Katie Carr, I'e I've been for the last few years and he's not very well today so asked me to step in and I'm really, really delighted to be here o'n fath. I am ydydd Nadine a'n gweithio'r prydol, mae'n cyfrifio clywed. Mae'n rhan o gwbl ffaith yw, yn meddwl i'r ddweud, ac mae'n ddysgu'n ddiddordeb yn ei ddweud. Felly, rydyn ni wedi'n gweithio'n ei ddefnyddio'r ddiddorol, ac mae'n ddiddorol i'n ddiddorol i'n gweithio'r ddiddorol. Nadine is chair of the Climate Psychology Alliance in Scotland. She is a visiting researcher at the Pentland Centre for Sustainability and Business at Lancaster University. She works as a social researcher in the Scottish Government, currently leading the research on Scotland's climate citizens assembly. Following a PhD in the Psychology of Pro-Environmental Behaviour, she worked in the science team of the IPCC Technical Support Unit for Working Group 2 in the sixth assessment report cycle. Nadine is also a mindfulness and nature-based coach and trainer. Nadine, I'd really love to hear you introduce yourself a little bit. I'm particularly curious about hearing a little bit about your journey, like what led you here to be in a Q&A on deep adaptation, climate psychology and collapse. Yeah, sure. Thanks. So hello everyone. Well, I think I first met Gem in 2015 or 2016, I can't remember now, when I was doing my PhD and he'd organised a research festival and I was presenting my research there and running a nature connection workshop. But my interest in how we cope with stress, traumatic events and how that affects not just our well-being but the way that we are in the world, how we relate to others, how we make decisions has just kind of grown from there. And that's very much an interest of the Climate Psychology Alliance, which I'm part of. And it kind of has started to kind of creep into all sorts of different areas of my life. So it's part of my own kind of personal interest and personal practice for myself. And also the work which I do with others and even to some extent what I do in Scottish Government because I also teach mindfulness sessions in there. So I think that's the reason why Gem invited me to do this Q&A. Last year I became really interested in the area of intergenerational trauma for mainly personal reasons because last year my dad died and there was work that I was doing in the months before and after around all of that. And that kind of really shone the light on the importance of understanding not just intergenerational trauma but other forms of trauma and how that all interacts with other kind of chronic toxic stress and to affect our immune systems and our nervous systems. And I was also thinking about it in the context of COVID and why are Black and Asian people so more vulnerable to COVID and the underlying health inequalities around all of that. And why do people have these conditions and why is there a higher prevalence of it? And so some of what I was doing last year was kind of a really deep dive into the work of Gabor Matig. I'm sure many of you will be familiar with the work that he does around emotional stress and how that affects the immune system and has effects on physical and mental health. And also just work around ancestral wisdom and I got very interested and did work with my doctor in terms of Firestone. So there's a whole load of stuff that I've been really looking at last year. But one of the things that I'm particularly interested in talking about today is Taoist physical arts practice because that's something that I've been doing for a long time. And it comes into my mindfulness teaching a lot much more so now than ever before. And yeah, I think there's a lot there that's just really interesting to discuss with you and everybody that's here today and to explore that aspect of it further. Yeah, thank you. There's so much in this terrain, so much that I'm really fascinated to get into with you. The way that this is going to work with Nadine and I will be chatting for about the next 15-20 minutes trying to get into some of those topics. And then Nadine is going to share a kind of a five minute practice with us. Is that right? And that before we then move on to the Q&A part of this session. So the part of what you said, which really excited me, one of the parts was looking at intergenerational trauma. Because I know that there's a lot of different ways of understanding and addressing, even making sense of what it is and what it means. But I think there are some steps before there, aren't there? Maybe we could start with just exploring from your perspective what resilience means in this area and why it's important. Yeah, and well, and in the context of, you know, deep adaptation. And so, I mean, quite simply, in order to kind of cope with everything that's happening and everything that's likely to come our way in the coming years, the more resilient we are psychologically, emotionally, the more connected we are to others, the better able we will be to deal with all of that in a positive kind of constructive way and to be able to help and support other people. So that's the sort of starting point, if you like. And so, you know, so here's a metaphor coming from Irish physical arts practice. So this includes like Qigong, Tai Chi, Sof Kung Fu, but also like Kai Men, which is a Taoist yoga and Da Yin respiration theory, but respiration therapy. So if you think of a tree in a strong wind, which has, how does that tree cope with being in a strong wind? It needs strong roots deep into the earth and a flexible trunk. And so we can think about that in terms of ourselves as well and our connection down into the earth, our ability to kind of flex. So there's a physical, you know, a literal physical dimension to this, but also kind of mentally. And so, you know, this is what we want to be like if we can. And then if you think about this concept of like adversity-based growth or post-traumatic growth, you could think of maybe like a tree that's kind of growing out of a cliff face or somewhere that's not ideal. And yet somehow it's still managing to grow up and to live its life, maybe not as fully as it would if it was in kind of ideal conditions. But it has to adapt to that circumstance and it can still, you know, it can thrive still. So I find those kind of helpful metaphors really. So, yeah, so that's the kind of starting point then. And then to go into the idea of trauma and chronic stress. Well, toxic stress because stress can also be good, we need it, you know, just to be alive. So there's the kind of the good stress, but we're talking today about the kind of the toxic stress. And how, yeah, how that then affects us, yeah. Yeah, thank you. Because it is when that image that you shared of a tree and kind of in-the-moment resilience, I'm thinking about my cats do not store fear. I know that when they're stressed, they do stuff, they shake or, you know, they have a really, really big stretch and then they just sleep really peacefully. So there's the practices for like general good maintenance day to day moment to moment. But then looking at trauma is a different kind of, yeah, it's a different animal altogether, isn't it? So I wonder if you could speak to that. Yeah, sure, yeah. And so there's different types of kind of trauma, but I like the way that you'll keep hearing me refer to Cameron Matty's work. But I do like the way that he talks about this is that the trauma is the wound as a result of an event. So there's some sort of overwhelming threat, you know, some sort of deep fear about survival. And also the thing that she emphasises is that it's about being alone with the hurt. And I think that's an interesting point which we'll probably come back to. And the fact that wounds that haven't healed are kind of sensitive. So there's a kind of scar there, which if it doesn't heal this kind of, you know, so there might be a kind of hyper reactivity so it can be triggered. So it's the way that that then kind of dysregulates the nervous system. And so without going into deep into the kind of neurophysiology of all of this partly because I'm not an expert in it. But what kind of interests me about it personally as well is, and this is the intergenerational aspect of it, which is how if something isn't healed in one generation it can be passed on. So this can happen through epigenetics, you know, and there's a whole kind of science around that. But it's also just in how our parents behaved towards us, how they treated us when we were children, which is influenced by how their parents treated them and so on. So if emotional stresses and things weren't resolved then stuff gets passed on. So that's the sort of basic concept of intergenerational trauma that what isn't healed gets passed on. And I think people kind of have a sense of that anyway because you just look back into your own ancestry and you might see patterns there, certain patterns of behaviour. But what kind of the key point really is symptoms. So if someone's not manifesting any symptoms of trauma or chronic stress then great. There's nothing to do there. So it's for when things are manifesting and of course people might not be consciously aware that they are displaying these symptoms and that's the part of the work, isn't it, to become aware of these things. But when we do, we can, you know, this area of kind of science that looks into neuroplasticity tells us that, you know, we can change, things can change, we can change our nervous systems. So things aren't fixed is the kind of the key point there. And it takes kind of work. So for me it's, I don't know, I've probably been doing stuff off and on for 30 years or something. And I'm sure I'll continue for the rest of my life. But I'd say in the past year and a half in particular is really when a lot of stuff, a lot of insights kind of came through and I just really kind of learned a lot more about all of that. So, yeah. Thank you. You mentioned Gabor Mate a couple of times. And I watched his for anybody who doesn't know he made a documentary which was released last month. It was free to view for a week and then there's been so much demand it's free to view again, or donation based to view again for the next. End of the day on the 1st of August. So if anybody hasn't seen it, who is an incredible piece of documentary making really, really powerful. Right. And there's a series of talks around there as well, which, which is great. But I'm sorry, I just wanted to say so here's another metaphor, which is if thinking about a kind of a root bound pop plant. So this is kind of how our trauma or chronic stress might be affecting us because it's there's something that's constricting us in being, you know, fully who we are and. And, but if we can are able to kind of transplant this plant into into the ground where it's roots can grow out and spread out more and also crucially to connect into the mycelium network. Where they can then access nutrients. This, this, this is also part of kind of resilience so. It's this idea that this is kind of this is part of the healing process right is how it's how we can think of ourselves as moving into the kind of from from a restricted pot into open ground where we can connect. And through that connection is kind of where co regulation can happen as well. So I've been kind of, I also got really into poly bagel. Last year, but but the basic idea about co regulation is just the way that our nervous systems and respond to other nervous systems, you know. And yeah, so we're affected by other people and we affect other people. Yeah, thank you. And I know that you're you're really keen to move on to the practices, the healing approaches around that. So I'm going to ask you to talk about that. A little bit building on like the first thing and put particularly something that I have been focusing a lot in the deep adaptation forum over the last couple of years is the first step is to all of us to become more literate. You know, more able to, first of all, listen really deeply to our own bodies and second of all understand when we might be encountering somebody who is responding from a place of fear or all stored trauma. And yeah, the thing I'm and you talked a little bit to me about the kind of approaches and practices that you've you've got. And I'm fascinated about this idea of, you know, the fact that it's this is not looking for a big cathartic healing that it's a titration process that it's just learning to touch gently, just touch gently and feel a little bit at time. Yeah, yeah. Kind of approach. Yeah, I mean, and at times there may be some kind of major breakthrough, but but yeah, it's not dependent on major breakthroughs are certainly, you know, at times I might have had them, but it's also been other sorts of things. Yeah, for sure. So I think what I will do for to answer this is, I actually just kind of want to demonstrate something because there's, there's, it's a sort of general principle that I kind of work with. And, and it's just sort of the idea of self regulation, right, but and the way that I tend to do this is by demonstrating it, you know, to people where you're kind of standing on one leg. And there's kind of in a very simplified way. There's there's three stages that are happening here where the first stage is, you know, there's there's there's there's feedback signals, right, that are going on. And so there's a tension that's being paid to the feedback signals. And then there's those feedback signals need to be interpreted in a in a way that's accurate. And then there's some sort of response. And so if I tune into what's happening in my leg as I'm kind of standing here on one leg to avoid me from kind of totally falling over. There's there's kind of, you know, little adjustments which are happening all the time in response to, you know, this feedback. And if something went wrong, either with the noticing or the interpretation or the response, you know, I'd fall over. That's the kind of that's the kind of self regulation thing. And but to attend, we need that kind of sensitivity to actually be able to feel what's going on to be in connection and to be able to kind of witness to listen, you know, to the body. And then the stage of kind of interpreting those signals. So this is where if someone has been dysregulated, if their nervous system has been kind of dysregulated from trauma or chronic stress, then they might be hyper vigilant, right. So they might be the body, they might be detecting threat when in situations of safety. So there's some sort of distortion then that's happening at that interpretation level. So then when they come to respond to a situation, they might be a bit off right with their response. So, you know, and this is this is also what we do when we're doing mindfulness practices. So that's so that's. Yeah, that's one of the sort of principles behind it. And so. Yeah, so so Tarris physical arts like Qigong and and similar practices are one modality right in a mix of a whole load of other modalities. And what I particularly like about it is because it kind of fits with with my worldview really, you know, about, you know, how it's all about kind of following the patterns of nature, different energies. And, you know, particularly I might talk a little bit more about the kind of the masculine feminine aspects, you know, improving kind of energy flow. But but also in terms of specifically around stress is is the way that these practices can help to transform stress into vitality. So it's all I mean stress is kind of energy is it's, you know, locked in particular bits of body, but we can release that. Release is that transform that energy into a different type of energy that we can use. And people can feel that sometimes in practice when they start feeling tingling and, you know, in their in their in parts of their body and things like that. And, you know, because it helps us to get into this parasympathetic nervous system state of relaxation and calm and, you know, the kind of the ventral vagal state. Where we really want to be making decisions from as opposed to from this, you know, a kind of a threat response state, either either kind of fight or fly or kind of freeze. So my own just about my own kind of experiences around this. So I have been working for years on the kind of the soft hard, you know, masculine feminine energies, which we all have within us, and, you know, the kind of the dynamic balance between that. And my a lot of what you learn when you're doing that with starts practices, including martial arts is learning how to be soft in the face of, you know, threat. And if anybody's ever been drunk and had an accident, you'll know that you're not as injured. So, yeah, so my kind of tendency has been to be kind of, you know, to tense or to think that I've got to be tough or strong or sometimes a bit forceful or controlling. And so the learning has been about how learning how to be soft and that sensitivity to kind of to really feeling as well. Also, a tendency in the past to kind of withdraw. So, you know, the work then has been about kind of reaching out to be able to connect and to allow myself to be felt by others as well as me feeling people. And the strength that there is in that in that vulnerability, you know, as well as the kind of strength that you get through softness, which is counterintuitive. And there's exercises that we do, which you need a partner for, so it's really difficult to do online, but where people can get a real sense of how softness is stronger than hardness, you know. And I'm really nice exercises where if someone had their hand up this way and you put your hand this way and very light touch, but you have to stay in connection. And you can really tune in and really feel with your eyeshot, you know, what the other person is doing. So there's all these kind of practices like that, which I love. And the other thing, which I think, I mean, I can talk a lot more about this, about the symptoms which I'd experienced in myself and then thought, oh, you know, what's going on here, right? This is either a residue of a intergenerational trauma or it's something, you know, an experience that I've had myself. Who knows, right? Some stuff you don't even necessarily need to know exactly where it came from. So I'll mention two things, and then if people are interested and ask questions, you know, I can talk about more of that. But one was about healing shame, about not belonging. And this, so this I think has aspects of intergenerational as well as, you know, just developmental and relational trauma of growing up in a racist society basically, right? Which, and there's a line in that trauma of wisdom. I think it's, I don't think it's Gabor Matty. I think it's someone else who says it, but they basically say how, which I love, and it's, it's, I read it. It says, the march of time decontextualizes trauma. So it has interpreted as something that is wrong with me. And I think that's so insightful. So, yeah, the thing about not belonging, I think is very much part of what it's like to live in a racist society, as well as a sexist society to some extent as well perhaps, but. And how I came to heal that without consciously doing it, like I didn't set out, I'm going to heal this because I didn't really know that that's what was going on. It was only when I wrote an essay about it, and that kind of revealed itself in the writing of the essay. But that came through the kind of the nature of connection work and other stuff that I was doing, where I came to this realization that I belong to the earth, right? Not just an intellectual understanding, but a real embodied understanding. And also the other thing which comes with racism and sexism is a shame around not being worthy. That's part of what you're internalizing there. So this is all stuff which has its place. It's in the body that you've been living with for years. So deep you might not even be aware of it. So this is stuff which can then come out. And then just just lastly before we get past them, I had been for, oh gosh, I'd say easily six or seven years when I'd been meditating. I had been noticing physical sensations in the heart so that there was no thoughts associated with it. There wasn't even any emotion associated with it, but it was a physical sensation of just thumping hearts. So not a racing heart, but just absolutely thumping and kind of pain. I had no idea what was going on. I talked about it with loads of kind of Buddhist kind of teachers and stuff like this. And I eventually, only just quite recently actually came to think that this was some sort of residue of fear that was in my body. I'd been completely decontextualised from whatever had caused it in the first place, but I was left with some sort of trace. Anyway, that's kind of gone now after all the work I did last year, thank goodness. But yeah, there's still so much more to say around that. Things around my posture, hunched posture, all about kind of protecting the heart, you know, and yeah. So if people are interested, I'm quite happy to talk more about that, but these are the feedback signals. This was what was showing to me that there were things there that were deep in the body and that, you know, if I didn't want it to affect my health more, then these are things to work on. But lastly, I just really want to say that I don't see all of this work as just being about, you know, for individual benefit. I'm actually not that interested in that. I mean, it's great, right? But for me, it's all about how can we be of service to others, you know, human, non-human of service to the earth more generally. And to be of service, then, if we're in a good place ourselves, well, so much the better, right? So that's kind of what's driving it for me. So maybe I could bang on about this for ages, but I'll stop. Thanks so much. I was so much of what you were talking about, particularly then when you touched upon your experiences of like the impact on your body of this stored. Yeah, really closely connecting with my own experiences about just knowing my body was was closing in to protect what felt like the softest, most vulnerable pieces. After a particularly traumatic experience. A lot of learning and realisation in that. Absolutely. And I think this is a kind of really important point, which is that we might notice so, you know, tightness in the shoulders. And I think to rush in and try and release the tightness can be a real mistake because because it's the body is doing stuff to protect us is doing it for a good reason. And if the heart isn't ready to open, then that's, you know, that's when people can have problems, I think, in doing these sorts of practices because they're kind of they're going too fast. And I think there is a there is a an interesting paradox this kind of union paradox of the frame climate emergency, right, which is all about climate emergency, which is which is really emphasizing urgency. And yet at the same time a lot of what we need to be doing is actually slowing down. Yeah, definitely. And that I thought about this earlier when you talked about the work with the masculine and feminine energies, and that I know that I can connect with what had been previously an unconscious internalised quite violent part. It was like something's going wrong with you now you need to force yourself to get better because, yeah, otherwise you're unworthy. And, yeah, connecting with the other more gent. There's nothing to be done. Just listen. Just learn to listen. So, yeah. That's probably a good place to go to the practice then. Yeah, it was about so I just want to mention to people. I know that some people have shared some questions already. Nadine had spoken to me earlier about some curiosity about whether this practice shifts the kinds of questions that people here are curious about finding out about. It may or may not, but just to just to pin that there. And yes, so looking forward to hearing this. Let's go for it. So the first thing to say is this is just an invitation. And so you just do what what feels right for you. And if for some reason you start to feel kind of uncomfortable about anything to back off and stop and you know stand up or shake around. We're not going to do anything particularly in depth, but just to say that up front so it's a sitting practice. So just starting by by rubbing the hands together. Get some energy in the hands and then play over. I'll just move my camera down slightly so you can see a bit better. And yeah, so just placing them over the heart. And then just just beginning with slowly moving your arms over this the part area. So really gentle massage here. And then you can just have a little smile on your lips. And you're just sending that smile inside down into the heart area. And if you like to visualise you can visualise a small bud, a red bud. And the sun shining down onto this little flower. And as you're breathing in and you're sending this little smile down into your heart, the bud is just starting to open out and blossom. So this is you just sending good wishes to yourself. Wishing yourself well as much as you're able to in this moment. And then we're going to send these good wishes out into the world. So to do this we can put our hands together like this at the heart. And then breathing in. And then as you're breathing out you're sending that out into the world. So you're just sending straightening your arms out to the side. And then bringing the good wishes, the healing energy of the universe back into yourself. So whatever we're putting out into the other world we always want to bring it back in. And we can't give out what we don't have so we want to be building up our inner resources. And one way to do that is by bringing in the energy of the universe into ourselves. As well as eating well and sleeping well and breathing well and all the other things that help our vitality. So just feeling that. And then if you like to end you can just settle your hands on your belly. And just breathing into the belly. So feeling pressure of the belly up against the hands as you breathe in. And have it retreats away from the hands as you breathe out. So that's the short little exercise to end on there. Thank you. Would you like to maybe we'll go into the questions Nadine rather than hearing from people. Sure. Oh it's really shifted my my energy even my capacity to make narrative sentences. So if you haven't already and if a question is arising for you please send it to Stuart in the chat. And I am going to go to Amelia first of all Amelia can you unmute yourself and if your video isn't on yet then turn it on for us and ask your question. Hello hi. I just wanted to ask how can you connect with people who seem part of the problem as in big cars lots of houses skiing holidays and how can you connect in a society that hasn't valued the same things as you so the environment motherhood. And instead they've valued money and status. Yeah so this is it's not easy for sure. And but I think it's for me personally anyway. Why I've been trying part of what I'm trying to do is is is to really cultivate kind of compassion because because if you think about behaviours is just being that's just the surface level. But there's all sorts of things underneath this that's that's driving those behaviours. And if you go into the social psychology work around this a lot of what's driving those destructive behaviours is you know anxieties and fears. So it's a way of coping with with threat. And so I think it's when we first of all recognise in ourselves that we also have ways of behaving which are not perfect or imperfect and things which are destructive even. And you know we're all we're all complex like that and and that so we can have compassion for ourselves and then we can see other people behaving in particular ways and rather than having a kind of us them. Thing which I think is deeply unhelpful and also is not a kind of a Taoist approach which doesn't see things in those sort of binary separate categories. Then it allows us to at least begin to to see the humanity of this other person with whom you know we might be thinking really negative thoughts about right. Because if we go to them with those negative thoughts and kind of throw that in their face that's they're just going to get even more defensive. So that's not going to help shift anything, but in any case I think it always starts with ourselves anyway. I think it's very difficult to be compassionate to other people if we can't be compassionate to ourselves. And that's an ongoing practice right because a lot of us are very self critical. Yeah. Thank you. And thank you very much for the question Amelia and I want to do have another couple of questions from the audience but I wanted to ask you something specifically about. Oh, I start to shake a little bit as I think I think the question is knowing that the world feels really precarious now for a lot of people. And that isn't going to, it's not likely to stop. It's likely to be getting increasingly ramped up, maybe slowly, maybe quite quickly. Yes, it is shaky and also connecting with something that you said earlier about the sense of urgency and emergency. And I wonder whether you could talk something about for me there feels like a paradox around. I know that for me, the more urgent things feel the more I have to connect with stillness. Even though that feels like there's so much to do. I know I have to connect with stillness and I have an intuitive sense it's to do with listening to my body. I have an intuitive sense it's to do with cultivating compassion. I wonder if you could speak to that a little bit. Yeah, for sure. And I mean this totally fits with the kind of the Taoist perspective and what you do when we're doing these practices. Because I mean I think some things are outside of time, actually. And I mean it kind of links to sort of polyvagal theory in the sense that that kind of the urgency, right? The fact that the speed that you know rushing is kind of coming from this place of a sympathetic nervous system response. It's kind of fight or flight. It's got that stress quality to it. And that's difficult to maintain over time because of the way that stress affects the body. So you know it's going to exhaust us being in that state. But more than that is the point that we were talking about. To really develop that sensitivity to feeling what's going on within us and around us and with other people. We do have to slow down because it's in the detail. And if you're rushing too fast and of course rushing is a very good way of distracting ourselves from actually going to what is there. But also stillness can seem like a very dangerous place to be if we're in this dysregulated state. Because it might be misinterpreted, you know, as being collapsed. So being in that kind of hyperarysal place of, you know, severe kind of association and numbness and depression and despair and things like that. Yeah, that's really interesting. I know both of those. The stillness, which is flat. And I also know the stillness, which is there's so much going on and I need to just sit and be with it for as long as it needs me to sit and be with it. Yeah. Yeah, because I used to really struggle. Well, I used to find it really difficult to just be still on my own. And I kind of want to fill the silences or fill those gaps, you know, and it took, you know, and I know, you know, and that's linked with all sorts of other stuff around escapism and numbing and all sorts of kind of other great ways to kind of distract yourself and things, you know. But yeah, that's working through that I think is really important. Yeah. And in in Gabo mate's documentary, which I feel like I'm going to be ranting on about for quite some time. He talks about the fact that many of those distractions are really wise ones like our buddy knows times that to go to that place where the wound is would be overwhelming. Yeah. Some habits of distraction, which are far more destructive than others. But the key thing is about using them wisely and consciously rather than unconscious compulsive behaviours. Yeah. And it comes back again to the kind of the Yang thing of not wanting to force things. So if you're not, you can't force your body, you know, you can't force your nervous system to open up to stuff if it's not ready to do that. You know, and so, you know, which comes back to what I was kind of saying about this, you know, the hunched thing and, you know, lifting the chest because to lift the chest is to really claim your place in the world. It's a very confident posture and, you know, you've you can pretend, you know, and that can help as well by just adopting the posture. It can kind of change the mind, but long term. Yeah. It's it unfolds. And it's I mean, this is what I mean by some stuff just being out of time. Think you have this is the just allowing things to unfold in the wrong way. You can't, you know, and actually the forcing of it can be really, really harmful. And when when people have negative experiences with mindfulness meditation, for example, some of that is to do with with people kind of forcing, forcing stuff. I'd love to hear more about that, but I know that this isn't about me and my curiosity. I want to go to Julia Hobson next. Julia, if you can unmute yourself and turn your video on please. Huge. Can you hear me? I've unmuted, I think. Yeah, we can hear you. Good. I can't see you and I can't quite manage to sometimes you come in and sometimes you come disappear into the blackness. Yes. So the question I wanted to ask was, Nadine, when you're working with in your position with the Scottish government, do you do these sorts of exercises that we just did the little one with the heart or similar ones with government officials and do you do them at all before they might be going into making decision making meetings? And if so, how has that how has that worked out? Yeah, so. So my my main job, the job which I'm paid to do is to be a researcher. And because I am trained in teaching mindfulness and separately, you know, I have my my probably liable to ensure it's not the rest of it. And I had already started doing some mindfulness teaching before COVID. But during, you know, all of last year, because of the amount of pressures on on staff, which were huge, obviously, in dealing with with everything. Just for in terms of supporting well being, I was asked, I offered and I was asked if I would lead sessions, which which I do. So that's within work time. And so it's great. I have a lot of freedom around that. But they're, you know, they're kind of like one hour ish kind of introductory sessions. But there's a lot of practices I've learned. I mean, I had previously taught in in organizations. But I really learned a lot about about teaching in the context of an organization and what works and what doesn't work. But there's a lot of really short practices, which are great for just kind of releasing stress as you go. And so what's, you know, so so there's been a lot of interest in these and I'm continuing to do them. And I do some follow up sessions where I just focus on a particular theme and, you know, we kind of explore that. Last time I did was about being like water, which was great. Now what people do with that and and in their day, I mean, this is in work time, so it's not like people have to take time out to do it. You know, I don't know because I'm not formally doing it as part of research and I don't really want to either. So, so, yeah, you know, so I mean, people are in and out of meetings the whole day. And so, yeah, I mean, I get good feedback and people tell me it's helping them. So, but, you know, there's obviously other things that they may be doing as well that might be helping. So I can't claim all the credit for it. Well, I guess one of the things that I'm intrigued by is how something that's been so devastating and like with the COVID has been opened another door that maybe wouldn't have been opened in in an organisation and led in certain possibilities. And I think that's that's fantastic. Yeah, I think that's right. And also it's it's allowed to for for me to do one more body based work, which I which I think works particularly well in organisations because going straight from being very, very active and and so then kind of, you know, just doing a real stillness practice very, very hard. But but a movement practice is kind of a transition, and I think it works beautifully. And so, yeah, and also then doing work around emotion regulation, including climate emotions. So it opens up the door for her for bringing that in, which is great. Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you very much. Nadine, I have got, I think, three more questions. We might go a couple of minutes over. But first of all to Andrew Medhurst, which touches on what you've been talking about before. He's asking for some help. Andrew, are you there? Yes, I am. So Nadine, thank you very much for what you've said to us this morning. And my question is any tips from Nadine. The context for that question is I have this. I have this contradiction in my in my mind and in my life about modern technology email. I mean, my background is a very corporate background. And when I was still in the in the corporate world, it was a people used to go off to Dallas retreats for a fortnight. Right. Unplug and then put themselves back in that. There's a part of me that says my connection to people who understand the climate emergency has come through technology. But I also have this sense that some of this some of these technologies, social medias have shot my attention span to pieces. And so there's a part of me that says any tips about how you manage that. This is how I connect at the moment and reality stillness and slowing down and calmness makes me want to just switch off every last piece of computer equipment I've got. So just any tips about how you feel that that can be managed please. Yeah. So have you got a kind of a daily practice that you do, whether that's kind of exercise or, you know, being outdoors and doing, you know, just being with trees or. No, I guess I've had a few trees in the last few weeks. But no, I think I think my problem partly is I'm in a privileged position I get up in the morning and this many days I'm thinking about well how do I feel my day and I get to the end of the day and I feel I haven't filled it very what it feels to me like I haven't filled it in a very productive way. And that productive maybe my corporate mind thinking I didn't do much today but it also might be I didn't do much in terms of self awareness and matterlessness and that sort of. Yeah, I mean, because there has been loads of work done around the addictive qualities of technology, which are, you know, it's designed in right to be addictive. So that's no surprise when people find it difficult to drive themselves away. But for me personally, I keep I try to maintain a kind of a daily practice of and it can be difficult to keep to that. You know, because there's a discipline associated with that, but it might be even kind of putting something in your diary that protects half an hour or an hour or even 10 minutes where you just you go outside. And you know there are some really nice kind of chi gong exercises that are there's you know stuff on YouTube which is free. I really like the work that Lee Holden does and you can you can because stuff up he's got, you know, really accessible stuff for beginners as well. And there's something and also it can help to have a guided video practice for it, but definitely a movement thing I would suggest for you then and. But what's beautiful about the Taoist practices is because it is all about following nature. So it's, you know, you are following the cycles of nature and the patterns of nature, even if you're not sure exactly what each movement means, that's kind of what's underneath it all. And doing outside, you know, just connecting with the earth and with the sky and having that real sense of connection, that groundedness interrupts, you know, all that kind of busy mind stuff. So, I don't know that if, you know, possibly could be something that you look to try and integrate into into your day and and then don't beat yourself up if you don't manage to do it every day. I'm not sure if that helps. I'm a great one for sketching things in my calendar so I'm hearing you loud and clear that those practices in my calendar as well. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Andrew. Thank you, Nadine. Time for one more question. Curious one from Jonathan. If you could unmute yourself and it touches on. I guess. Thanks. Thanks for hosting this workshop. So I'm hard physicist. I.T. And I'm moving from the logical world of science and tech to the coaching world. I feel like the members here are more in the spiritual emotional place rather than the rational place. I'm wondering what we do about actually what do we do when the rubber hits the road. So how in coaching how can we move from counseling, looking back to coaching where we move forward and actually take some action. Thank you, Jonathan. I chose that question. I had a little sneaky interesting in it because I'm curious about whether it's a false dichotomy, but Nadine, I'm great to hear from you. I mean, I would say first off my kind of approach on stuff is kind of biopsychosocial spiritual. All of those things. And my interest in poly bagel theory in particular is is the science based nature of it. I really love stuff around neuroscience and all that. And and bringing that into the coaching world as many are already. That you know that there's a whole field of coaching that's this kind of trauma informed and that draws on all that theory that you could you could connect with if you were interested in. And I'm not what was the other point about you were asking about. So in in my coaching community, we we often think of counseling as looking backwards. And I'm more forthright and I've got more brutal style. It's we acknowledge all that. Now what we actually going to do to go to where we want to be. Yeah. And so your question is what what do you feel about taking action moving forward to where we want to be. Yeah. So both and so I think different. They're all they're different approaches, right? They're different fingers point on the moon and that kind of thing. Some people for me counseling and talking psychotherapies are not my thing. You know, not interested in it. I trained as a coach, but but it works for some people, right? So it's it's kind of there and it's in the mix is from it in terms of the Davies physical art practices. It's about balancing the past, the present with the future. So there'll be our movements where the forward arm is is into the future and the backward arm is into the past. And it's interesting when people raise their arms is are they actually in balance or is the weight of the past, you know, drawing heavier, right? But there's ways of kind of bringing what's in from the good stuff from the past that you want into the present and into the future. But then then you have to let it go. So even if you're focused on what you want in the future to not be kind of fixated on that. It's it's you hold it lightly. And then and then you kind of let it go to to work its way through in, you know, in the way that it does. So I have no idea if I answered your question or not. But it's very interesting to hear your spiritual emotional perspective. Yeah, I mean, I think I would suggest that if you're not already familiar with polyvagal theory, you might want to investigate that. And there's a lot of work around that now. And it might satisfy the kind of the science part of you as well. Thanks very much, Nadine. Thank you. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you, Nadine. And who I feel both full and also still hungry for more. That's been such a such a deep rich exploration together. It has felt really rushed to me. It has only because of this hunger for more. And I won't say apologies to there were a couple of people who submitted questions that I wasn't able to get to. But I'm so grateful to all of you for joining Nadine for joining us today for sharing your wisdom and your unique take on this topic. I'm really grateful and not just for this hour, but for all of the work that you're continuing to do in this field. Thank you very much. And by the way, if people, you know, want to drop an email or something, if you've got questions or just things that you want to talk about, you know, I'm interested. So feel free to get in touch. Thank you. Thank you. We will be sending up your receive an email after this event. The video will be shared on gems YouTube channel and a bit of a plug myself on the third. I'm going to be hosting a discussion circle for people who have watched Gabo mate's documentary to think about trauma from a deep adaptation lens and vice versa. So I'll share the information on that as well. And I think that's all very, very lovely for you all. And Nadine, I hope we can connect another time in the future. Yeah, definitely. And thanks to everybody for coming. I really appreciate anybody that's interested in listening to and being part of conversations. So it helps me as well because I have to think about what I really think. Lovely. Thank you so much. Thank you.