 Welcome everybody to Agile Coaching Ethics, making them real. A topic I know that I'm particularly curious about. And look, we're really, really glad to welcome Shane Hassel. This is an interactive session. I know Shane is going to guide you through a really interesting topic. So without further delay, let's hand over to you, Shane. Thank you very much, Debbie. Kia ora, folks. Welcome. I'm Shane. Please come on camera, talk to us. We've got a very, very small group so far, but hopefully we will have more come on soon. So come off, off mute, come on camera. And let's just start with a quick conversation. And the conversation I'd like to explore is why are you here? What are the questions about Agile Coaching Ethics? What are the challenges? What are they? What are your thoughts? So please come off mute. If you can come on camera, please do. Just throw out your thoughts. Why would we care about ethics for Agile Coaching? And we did say this is a workshop and a workshop is a collaborative event in which a group of people do work together. So welcome. Usha, welcome. Thank you for coming on camera. So talk to us. Why should we care about coaching ethics? The one thing which comes to my mind is to establish the trust with whoever you're coaching because it's also a journey where it's a journey between the coach and the coaching. So establishing trust. And how does, where do ethics help in there? It's like forming the basis of the trust to develop, especially if it's the initial time when the coach is first starting to interact with the coach. So it can be a foundation upon which we build trust. Thank you so much. Shipra, welcome. Do you have any thoughts? Coaching on the coaching ethics question that you just asked? Yeah. Why do we care about ethics in coaching today? I think personally, ethics are important in almost everything, right? Because like we, especially the human beings, the true nature that we have, I think we are very curious and sometimes I think it's important to establish and really set that boundary or those lines to operate within, especially in a field such as coaching. Because I think also one thing that I learned just yesterday in one of the sessions, which I totally agree with that. Sometimes I think in the coaching world and in the Scrum Master world, we really get so used to using things such as maybe high and vocabulary, certain jargons, very technical language and words to just, because we are reading about it. But then I think instead of that, if we are going about it in maybe a little ethical way and also probably maybe following certain guard rails or maybe focusing more on the outcome than just so I think that could just lead to being more effective. Cool. Thank you very much. All right. Anyone else? Any thoughts from the rest of our collaborators about why would ethics matter and do we need ethics for agile coaching? Hey, Shane, I hope I'm audible. So I think because coaches are somebody who's supposed to be a neutral party and not being really judgmental of what people are sharing with us. And like Usha mentioned and Chupra mentioned, I think having those, making sure that trust is built and we are respectful towards what people are sharing with us, I think it's really, really important to be ethical in the way we conduct with the group of people that we really work with. It could be any stakeholder that we're working with. Indeed. Thank you so much. Well, all of these reasons are valid. And going back nearly three years now, a few of us at one of the Agile Alliance conferences, probably after a little bit too much alcohol late one Thursday evening after the conference party, we're sitting down and talking about what we had seen in terms of agile coaching behaviors. And we were bemoaning. We were really complaining about these bad things that coaches were doing. And I'm not sure who it was around the table, but somebody challenged us and said, well, what are you going to do about it? And there was an embarrassed silence. And perhaps because I had had a couple of glasses of wine, myself and Craig Smith said, maybe there is something we can do. Because both of us, at that point, Craig was a member of the Board of the Agile Alliance, and I had been a member of the Board of the Agile Alliance. And we understood how the Alliance gets its work done. And the primary way the Alliance gets its work done in the community is through things that are called member initiatives. And a member initiative is something where a group of the membership cares enough to propose something to the, there's a process for making a proposal, and it goes to the Board of the Alliance and they look to see will they support this. And there have been some great member initiatives over the years. The Agile Accounting Standard came out of a member initiative. The Agile Extensions to the Business Analysis Body of Knowledge is a member initiative that I was personally involved in. There's the work that the Agile Alliance did with the PMI that resulted in the PMI guide to Agile practices that came out of a member initiative. So there have been many of these things. The woman in Agile was a member initiative initially and that took a life on its own. And so Craig and I said, yeah, we think there's probably a space here, and this might be something that the Alliance could get behind and support. We were also, both of us, aware of the International Coach Federation. And the ICF, International Coach Federation, is a professional body for professional coaches. So this is the, and there's a registration process. There's a certification program which requires that you have certain levels of training, certain number of hours of registered training, and that you've got practice hours that you have that are auditable. And one of the things that they require is that you sign a code of ethical conduct. And the ICF code of ethical conduct talks to your neutrality, to confidentiality, and a whole lot of other things there. So Craig and I were both aware of this, and we proposed an initiative to the Alliance. We gathered up some people that we could tap on the shoulder initially and say, hey, this is something we're going to do. We think we need some help with this. And we had a small group of volunteers that rapidly grew to about 35 people. And today is about 65 people practicing agile coaches across many, many different domains and from all around the world, people who care about this thing. So we started, and our first conversations as the working group in this initiative was, is there an existing code of ethical conduct that we can and should just be telling agile coaches, go and become a member of that organization and sign their code? Would that be enough? And we looked around and we found things like the ICF code of conduct. There's the international IAF, the International Association of Facilitators. They have a code of conduct and various others. And when we looked at these codes of conduct that were out there, we felt that yes, they were good, but they didn't quite fit with the frame of agile coaching. There's one of the things that, for instance, the IAICF, the International Coach Federation and the IAAF, the International Association of Facilitators, their codes both talk very, very firmly about the neutral stance of the coach. And we struggled with that one because as an agile coach, I'm not totally neutral. I am genuinely looking to bring a bias towards agility. So the ICF perspective is the client has the solution with themself. If the client is a team or an individual, we believe firmly they have the solution. And my job is to hold up a mirror. And the coach has no opinion. In agile coaching, we have an opinion. And we have a frame, the agile coach competency framework that Lisa Adkins and others in the agile coaching institute came up with and has made freely available to the world. So we wanted a code of ethical conduct that would fit with that frame, not just with the one slice of that, that is the professional coaching stance. But we wanted to have a bias towards that, one bias towards agility in general, but also towards enabling people to tackle their own problems. That they're somebody who had a lot of influence on us. And for the life of me, I've now forgotten his name and it will come back. But the talking deeply about the harm of imposing agile practices on teams without the consent. We'll take a framework and we'll drop it on an organization and we'll force the teams to work in that way. The other thing that we saw a lot of was dependencies where the coach comes into an organization and instead of working themselves out, they're actually working themselves deeper and deeper in. So they're, for instance, facilitating all of the events for the team. And that's preventing the team themselves from from building their competencies and building the muscle around those things. So these were some of the things that we were seeing. And we came up with a first version of the code about two years ago and put it out for feedback. And we've had a lot of feedback over the years. And in February this year, we launched the second version of the code. And now I'm going to I'm going to share a mirror board link. And I will share my screen in a moment as well to talk through what is this code of ethical conduct or agile coaching. So please, if you can join me on the mirror board, these you should have access to just drop in here and come and join me. I see a few people coming in already. Thank you very much. So over here, I'll do a bring everyone to me over here is the foundation of the code. The preamble is quite important to us. And it starts with people serving in an agile coaching role are expected to act ethically. Every organization will want their coaches to be ethical coaches. Every individual who is a coach will want to be ethical in their behaviors. I firmly believe this. But what does that mean in practice? So the intent of this code of ethical conduct is to provide guidance for people undertaking coaching agile coaching activities to guide the types of behaviors advice and approaches expected on of them. The complexity of agile coaching means that you will inevitably encounter difficult situations. Having this code will support you when these difficult decisions need to be made. And you can provide it in support of your decisions to your clients. Anyone who strut who embraces this code strives to act ethically. Even when doing so involves making difficult decisions. They act courageously, even if there is a personal negative impact. So that's the that's the stance we are taking. This is what we're putting out to the world to say this is what we expect of an ethical agile coach. And Sid Markle was one of our volunteers and she put this the sketch note together and has given us carte blanche to use it, copy it and use it and share it with the world. And it touches on the the nine topic areas of agile ethical agile coaching. So and here is the code. And if you'll forgive me, I will read this out and then I want to open things up for conversation. As someone who practices agile coaching ethically, I commit myself to the following. So we're asking you to make this commitment. One, protecting confidentiality, intellectual property and information security. I will protect information shared with me and will only disclose it for legal reasons or when I have clear agreement with my client and stakeholders. I will attribute others, others ideas appropriately and avoid the appearance that they are mine. Acting within my ability. I will be open and transparent about my skills, experience and qualifications. I will be clear with my client and stakeholders if they make a request beyond my capabilities. I will be open with the client if I if I believe they need another form of professional help. If I'm not the right person. Introspection and continuing professional development. I will engage with a peer group or mentor to explore ethical and other challenges in my agile coaching work. I will seek to improve myself awareness and effectiveness through introspection and professional development. Navigating conflicts of interest. I will be transparent about any potential conflicts of interest with all who might be affected. I will consciously avoid situations where I benefit myself to the detriment of the client and stakeholders so that I may maintain professional judgment and objective thinking. I will resolve conflicts of interest by working with the client and stakeholders, seek assistance when needed and suspend or end the relationship if needed. Ensuring value in the relationship. I will check with my client and stakeholders to ensure the relationship is valuable and only extend and only extended through mutual agreement. I will make it transparent if my client is forming dependencies on my services and will work towards their own self-sustaining agility. I will be open with the client if I believe the value in the relationship is declining. Upholding social responsibility, diversity and inclusion. I will seek opportunities to bring different voices to the conversation. I will take action to discourage and eliminate discrimination in any form. I will strive to leave society better than I found it by both my action and inaction, agreeing on boundaries. I will ensure we have agreed upon scope even if it evolves. I will work with the client to understand their needs and avoid imposing solutions based on my personal preferences and desires. I will openly challenge when my client is pursuing purposes at odds with the agile manifestos, values and principles. Managing differences in status and power. I will not use my positional authority, power or influence to achieve personal gain or undermine the goals of my client. I will create awareness when power, privilege and rank are impeding my client's goals or my ability to serve them effectively. And then we end with the responsibility to the profession. I will invite others who practice agile coaching to adopt professional standards and this code of ethics. I will enhance and uplift the reputation of the agile coaching profession and I will encourage healthy dialogue and reflection when I encounter unethical behavior in others. And then we have some acknowledgments. The codes of ethics already exist. The coaching facilitation and other disciplines included the practice of agile coaching. In preparing this code, we've been inspired by those existing codes and many who have contributed to the conversation about ethics in agile coaching over the years. This code of ethics is supported by additional explanations in the related scenarios and there's the website link where you can go and find the initiative. So that, folks, is the body. That is the core of the agile coaching code of ethical conduct from the Agile Alliance. What do you think? Can you commit to that as a coach? Shane, can I ask a question? Please do. Sure. So in the, I'm just looking at the mirror, right? And there, one of the things, could you speak a little more about managing differences in status and power? This one particularly is of interest to me because I think especially in a country like ours, like India, I think culturally we are very, very hierarchical. So there is a lot of power that comes into play at an enterprise as well as I think culturally at home for us. So we are very, very much wired that way. And this is one of the big challenges that I think personally that I see in Jaheer. So could you speak a little more about that here? The reason we put that one in there is, and the reason any of those points is in there is because we have seen them violated. Every one of these things has been violated many times out there in the wild in coaching engagements. But the, that one in particular, how many times, you know, we talk about agile coaching as should be a servant leadership role. But then we have a hierarchical structure where the Strummaster reports to the coach. How do we turn that around and put the coach underneath? The role of the coach is to support the team not to tell people what to do. So as a coach, I have seen people use their positional power, their positional authority, their power and their influence for personal gain. Now as a coach, can I use my influence to support the team that I work with? Absolutely, I should do. I should be able to go and have the conversation at the leadership level about the way that the demands that are being placed on the team are actually demotivating them and preventing them from being successful. That's part of my job, working at the leadership level to influence, to enable. So that's not for my benefit, that's for the team's benefit. I must focus on the benefit of the people that I am there to serve as an agile coach. Does that make sense? It does, yes. So the person behind EPAM Agile 5 Pass has put their hand up, please. Who's this? Passion, I think. This is Raj. So just a little different perspective here. So I really agree that we need to have the servant leadership as a technical point for the coaches. But if you look at the overall organization, in my view, maybe it's really my view. So if organization has to exist, there has to be some structure. It could be hierarchically, it could be a network, whichever way. So there has to be some shape. And that's where probably you see organizations are trying to organize these things together just to see some shape coming up. And then probably somebody at that level taking some accountability and some responsibility. So how do you see that? As a coach, I might be in that hierarchical structure and I might have a positional power. That's absolutely right. But read what it says there. I will not use my positional authority, power or influence to achieve personal gain or undermine the goals of my client. I agree with that. But there's nothing wrong with we have a structure, absolutely. It's how do I act ethically within that structure? And one of the most important things there is I'm not using that power in any way. That is about personal gain. Yeah. When we looked at this one, one of the most extreme cases. So in the two years, two and a half years that we worked on coming up with this version of the code, we discussed real circumstances that people had seen. And an example with this one, the most extreme case of this one was somebody who had been appointed into an agile coach in a hierarchical structure and it was a male. And there was a person who was reporting to him who was female. And he entered into a relationship with her almost by force. He threatened her job powerful. Now that, as I said, was the extreme case that we spoke about. And there's just another point of view here, right, Shane. So one, when we talk about servant leadership, right? And lately we talk about true leadership, right? So when we talk about true leadership, maybe as I see, I mean, if you're looking at servant leadership, it's like you're leading by side or maybe leading from behind, for example, or maybe leading by subring folks. And if you look at the true leadership, you add another angle which is leading from front, for example. So if you look at from that point, so what do you think, I mean, what change do you want to probably bring into the ethics? Or do you still think that it will hold to the one that you just shared with us? I think, I don't think if I look at the other term I've sometimes seen in the stance I've started to talk about is host leadership. If you think of the person who is hosting an event, they are facilitating, they're ensuring, they're making sure that everything happens smoothly and that the guests are well looked after. I don't think that we would change anything in that managing your differences and status and power in that context. And can you apply in that context and not abuse your power? Yes, absolutely. In a hierarchical structure, you can behave ethically and not abuse your power and still have the hierarchy. That's fine. It's the point from the ethical perspective there is using that to achieve personal gain or undermine the goals of my client. That's the thing that we were calling out explicitly. You're so much in. I appreciate that. Any other thoughts, folks? Anything else that leaps out at you? Now, I will remind you that this is a workshop. So we're now going to, we'll shortly go into the first of the workshop activities here. And we're going to set up breakout rooms. But let me show you the rest of the board for a moment. Over here to the right, there are nine frames. Each one exploring one of those topic areas, and it repeats the topic and the content, and then gives examples of appropriate and inappropriate behavior and gray area behavior. And each one of those has got a context. So when we put you into breakout rooms, we're going to ask you to spend, we'll do this in rounds of 10 minutes. And we'll see how many rounds we managed to get through. I'm going to want you, depending on the breakout room you're in, and we'll just start counting from the top left, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. In your rooms, come in to this part of the board, and hopefully at least one person in each group will be able to, will be on the board, will have access to the board. You can share the board, share your screen so everyone can read it. I want you to look through the examples there, discuss them, and then add your comments. So just grab posted notes and put your comments in there. If you feel, yeah, that was, yeah, of course that's right. Well, yeah. Or particularly if you disagree, or if you've got your own scenario that you would like to talk about or add to. Or if there is something new that we could add in here. So in some ways I'm crowd sourcing the content as well. So each group will have 10 minutes, and then we'll come back for a quick five minute conversation. Then we'll go back in again and we'll, but I'll move you to a different section. So you will have gone through four different sections by the time our time is up. Does that make sense, folks? I see a couple of thumbs up there. Thank you very much. So Debbie, can you create, yes, can you create nine breakout rooms, please? Nine, nine time people. So it's been a bit about two. You'll be in breakout rooms in pairs. So again, your breakout room number is where you start. And the topic point, the point number is the breakout room number. So protecting confidentiality is point one, and there is one on there, two acting within my ability and so forth. And you'll have 10 minutes in the rooms, and then we'll come back. We'll have a quick conversation and we'll go back into the rooms again. Welcome back, folks. So how did that activity go? Do you want to give any feedback? Well, we're going to do another round, but this time we're going to make far less rooms so that there's sort of four or five people in each room. If you, this time, I'm going to say that the groups can select whichever scenario, set of scenarios they want to, want to look at. So quickly discuss amongst yourselves and we'll give you 15 minutes in this breakout. All right, Dushanth, do you want to come off mute and let's chat? What do you think? Well, if you look at some of those scenarios, which are the ones that are going to be the most challenging for you? Okay, navigating conflicts. I think this one is interesting, navigating conflicts of interest. Where have you seen some challenging behaviors around that one? Maybe, yes, I can say. Not recently, but yes, I have seen. So there's a couple at the bottom of that list that we call gray areas. So your relationship there is your coach to this hiring manager and after the coaching session, the client asks, if you know any other coaches that are available and you put in a good word for your colleagues. So it could be absolutely fine. But what is your motivation for putting in the good word for your colleagues? Is it because they are friends and or is it because you are, you get a referral bonus or is it because they are the right people for the client? Maybe the third option. If they are the right people for the client, and you can hand on heart ethically say that, then there's nothing wrong. And you would also, it would be encumbered upon you to tell the client that, yeah, these are people that I know. They are my colleagues. So I'm going to, if I recommend them, I have a natural positive bias or confirmation bias towards them. But I believe that they will be the right people for you. Just making it very, very explicit and clear that there is more to your relationship with these people than just, yeah, this is a good coach who I know of in the world. Yeah, yeah, so I don't see any challenge in the last one as well. Okay, so I agree with the situation. Like if I've been contracted as a buyer consulting firm, so I read this thing. So maybe they are just asking like, when the contract is nearing termination. So at that time, maybe I am approaching or the firm is approaching me, I'm not sure about that thing. But basically, they ask, this is a situation where I can have an independent relation with that consulting firm. Am I getting it correctly? With the client? With the client. No, then it is not correct. For me, that one, I would, I struggled with the gray there. I think that's an inappropriate thing to do. Yes, that's an inappropriate, yes. That, yes, if I'm contracted by some consulting firm for the client, yes, then there are norms in place and we cannot default those norms. Yeah. And the interesting question there is, even if my contract with the client, with the consulting firm does not prevent me from doing this, should I? Then I personally feel then there won't be an issue because there are, while you're working with any of the clients or anywhere, so you build a certain kind of relationship and a depot, which is not just found by those laws and these contracts which are in between. So any which ways, if these things are not in between and there is no nothing hostile or anything, any, any loss that you are doing to the company you're working for, then I personally that won't be an issue. And then the question then becomes, should I have the conversation with the client to just let them know with the consulting firm to say, hey, you guys are letting me go and the client, I'm talking to the client about this just to let you know. Absolutely. Yes, that's the best way to approach about the situation. Yes, of course, that would be great. In fact, if we also acquaint them with this kind of, that this kind of opportunity has come up and I hope they only hassle from your end so that I maintain a good depot with both the organizations and that is the transparent way as well. Yeah, the transparency there is really, really important. Absolutely. So in the conflict of interest space, the most important, in my experience and my opinion, the most conflicts of interest are tackled best with transparency. We can make things visible, transparent and clear, then we can have good conversations. Two seconds, one second, there we go. And everybody back. Okay, how did that one go? How did that round go, folks? Any thoughts or feedback or comments? I wish if you want to pick that point up that we were discussing while this room just got closed. Yeah, I don't mind discussing it actually. So we were speaking particularly about this point chain where it's under the protecting confidentiality intellectual property and information security. So whether sometimes, I think if you're, let's say in a setup where the scrum team is reporting to maybe a delivery manager or somebody and then sometimes as you working with that team as a coach or a scrum master, people come to you checking on their performance or how they have been doing. So what should like we were just discussing that should we deny such a request or what would be the right conduct there? So from the kind of conduct perspective is I would need to get the clients, the team's permission to talk to the manager. I can't just arbitrarily go ahead and say, yeah, well, you know, the team is having conflict and I see this person doing that and that person doing this. I would go to the team and say I've been asked and if it was part of the engagement, I would be clear with the team in advance that one of the things I've been asked to do is to talk to feedback to management how things are going with this team. When we're having conversations, what are the points that you want to be clear about confidentiality and what are the things that I can share? Again, it's the transparency. Sorry, Shiva. Yeah, no, no, I just wanted to add to it because like I can really relate to it this point that this is also something in an area where otherwise we end up breaking the trust, that relationship of trust that we build with the team members. So if you are not really seeking their permission or letting them know and keeping that transparency then yeah, that is where it also kind, you know, sometimes ends up being broken and it also then somewhere impacts the psychological safety, which is very important. Absolutely. Yeah, Sushant, I think the first question itself, right, what we were discussing on this topic, which Shipra mentioned, should even that coach really even, you know, accept that kind of request from the client? Well, at the very, very... So that first example there, you asked to help evaluate the agile health of several business, several areas of business. Before each interview, you establish a level of confidentiality that you will anonymize results. As the assessment is conducted, the CX request a report, which includes the results per person, you only provide the anonymized data. So you protect the identity. So you've complied and with what you've told them you will do and what you've told the team you will do, that you're only going to report back anonymous results that you won't. And if the CXO insists that they want that, then I would go to the team and say, I've been asked to provide individual feedback. Do I have your permission? And where... This is where having the code to refer back to can be really powerful, because I can give the CXO a copy of this code and say, no, here is why. I am obliged by the Code of Ethical Conduct to protect information shared with me. So the other thing that a Code of Ethical Conduct gives us is a tool to have the hard conversations when people do want to do things that you know are not right. So I've got one more round of things that I'd like to do in this workshop. And we'll recreate rooms, we'll go into again three small three groups. And for this round, I want you in your group to pick one of the topic areas and write new scenarios. So talk about what you've seen with some examples, and give us new scenarios with... And if you can structure it as we had in terms of is it appropriate, inappropriate or gray? And if it is a gray area, well, one of the things that you would ask people to explore before making a decision for a gray area. Seeing what other people have done, I'm now asking you to do it. Any questions on this activity? How many minutes would you like to give, Shane? Fifteen, that'll take us to five to the hour and then we'll have a five minute recap and we're done. Hey, Srikanth. Yeah, I think one thing I wanted to tell you when you were kind of before the last breakout session was I was speaking, but I think my audio was not coming out even then. So yeah, the coaches behaving in an ethical manner, I totally understand that. And I want the coaches in any situation to make the utmost ethical call. That is how we should be operating. But I've seen the other end of it in the sense that as a coach, I've not been treated correctly by my client. So some of those things like there was one client when I worked with, they were kind of discussing a point for over the course of several weeks, they were discussing and all converging. And they called yet another meeting to discuss the same thing. And after one hour, they still didn't converge. So I just said, look, yeah, let's close the meeting here and there are these particular discussion points that we need to close on and let's take those individually. And then we can reconverge and agree on how the approach should be. And from the sponsor side, there was one person who took a very, I would say unreasonable stand on that, saying that he didn't get an opportunity to speak. Whereas throughout the one hour, so many people have been speaking and they've been kind of touching around the main issue, but not the main issue. So yeah, so it didn't go well from there. So that's one place. One instance I can recall the other instance is like when somebody was not sticking to the agenda. And I said, look, let's kind of discuss what we met here for and the point you're making, we can discuss it later. That individual took a very different opinion. It again, it turned out very different from what I'd expected. I would have expected, okay, fine, you should have given me an opportunity to speak and finish the point. That is the end of story, but it took a very different thing. But it's like, yeah, consultants will get you fired, those kind of things. So I would say, yes. So there, we need to kind of, when we go into an engagement, probably we need to call out the kind of support and protections we need for consultants as well. So when we set up that coaching agreement with our client, with the organization, having those conversations about, okay, well, yeah, this is what you can expect of me. What can I expect of you? Right. So once we have that, so if conflicts arise, how can we, who will take, who will be taking a look at resolving the conflicts? So we probably conflict resolution, also we should think and on a regular basis, we need to kind of review any things that are conflict zone, then kind of bring it and discuss. So it might mean, for example, I'll tell you one simple thing. If let's say somebody joins an organization after you have joined, that person doesn't have a context of the discussions that have taken place. And if this person joins in a very influential position, then they might kind of suggest something that are not in alignment with what you have suggested all along. So that is a potential conflict. How do we resolve that? So we cannot tell that person that, you know, hey, what you're saying is wrong. And what I'm saying is correct. No, that's not the way it works. We have to kind of bring it back. You know, this was an approach all along. That is why we have followed, made these kinds of decisions. And we have made these changes. Now going forward, how we kind of ensure that, you know, you bring in your thinking as well. And we have to realign some aspects of the approach. So again, it's the how do you create the context and the conversation with that person when they come in. So you're almost in a position of re-establishing a coaching alliance. We have to undo a lot of things that have been done already. We have to undo a lot of things that have been done already. At least you need to redo because if we think about it in terms of things like Tuckman's team formation model, you're going back to forming. So I can relate one example. So there was a discussion of forming, you know, adding people with automation skills. And there were two approaches. One is have a separate automation team. The other is, which is what I was suggesting, automation should be a part of each development team. So then it's like there was a context to it. So I had to backtrack and I have to say, okay, fine. If this has all been agreed already, if you wanted a separate automation team, if you work towards it, then me coming and telling that this team will not be a separate team, it will be a part of all the teams existing. That is a rework, right? So I kind of backtracked. I said, okay, fine, let's start from where you want it to go. Let's start from there and we'll take a call afterwards to realign. If we are likely. So the conversation, the establishing the relationship and the transparency and openness. Okay, folks, how did that round go? What did we come up with? Are there some good, meaty new scenarios on the board? I see at least one there. We didn't have enough time, this time chain. So we were still discussing on which is the right placeholder for the scenario. So I couldn't create, but we will add it in number seven. I would have, I would deeply appreciate it if you do have some time to go and carry on fleshing this out. So thank you so much, folks. All right. Well, we're almost at the end. So really, all I want to do is get any feedback from you. How was this session? Was this worthwhile and interesting? Yeah, it was really interesting, actually. And we were able to understand the code of ethics much more in a better way. Because for each and every ethics, right, you have given an n number of scenarios. That's what I would say examples. So that made us to understand it better. Thank you. And that's the purpose of the scenarios is to help people understand, to see examples so that when you find yourself, and I'm sure many of you will recognize the situations from some of those examples. They are sadly very, very common. So if you would like to share this with your community, it's available as the full set of the full context of the code. All of the code and the scenarios are there. There are translations so far into three languages, Spanish, Portuguese, and I think we might. An Arabic version has been set up. It doesn't look like it. That is going to be downloadable as a PDF. And if anyone would like to translate it into other languages, we would love to have it. But there's a lot on this website. And there is a link on that homepage or the email to get hold of us, the Agile coaching ethics at agilealliance.org. Thank you very, very much indeed. Super. Thank you for hosting us. Oh, you're more than welcome. Folks, thanks. Firstly, thanks, Shane, for sharing your experience with us today. It's an enormously interesting topic. And I know I'm sure people who came benefited from it enormously. And it's just a territory we should all be exploring. Thank you, Debbie, for hosting. And thank you, everyone, for coming along.