 Welcome to Pookey Ponders, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. I'm Pookey Nightsmith and I'm your host. Today's question is, what practical steps can we all take to avoid everyday racism and where might we go wrong? And I'm in conversation with Ann Marie Christian. So my name is Ann Marie Christian and I'm a social worker by trade, qualified 24 years and been in the world of trying to child protection, safeguarding since my late teens when my mother was a foster carer. And for the first time ever, I was exposed to young people who had different lives, you know, experiences, should I say, than I did. And understanding that, you know, the whole kind of local authority, social work kind of world. And then I kind of drew me into. And I think then I was a hairdresser anyway and a beautician, but I kind of was doing it around making people look better. And then I went into the world of making people feel better in social work and child protection. But this is my degree, blah, blah, blah. And then it was more about the wellbeing and also understanding people with no voice and making them feel good about themselves, regardless of what they've been through. I think when I look back at my kind of moral compass and values, that was always one of those parts there and everyone's got a voice regardless of what you look like. And then, yeah, it led me to where I am today. So I've been a manager for 17 years and I was based in the school 21 years ago and I was a children and family social worker prior to that. And again, I've worked with always in multiculturalism, always for my career. When I first qualified, you know, so where I am today, I'm an international third-party consultant and I travel the world talking about child abuse or raising the profile of child protection, should I say, knowing that in some countries it's very taboo, knowing that there's a lot of people who don't talk about it. You know, it's happening everywhere. It doesn't discriminate boys, girls, everything. And I think, yeah, that's my passion. My vocation is about ensuring that people who work with others, including adults as well, are aware of people who are vulnerable and need that support. And current my message is there's people that have been, will be and are, you know, in that model. And I think that, you know, that's the model of, you know, people see the iceberg, don't they, of disclosures. And I think the reality is you have to remind ourselves that especially in COVID lockdown, I was talking to a colleague from Australia last week and in some countries it's rife where, you know, multiple kind of generations in homes, you know, children who, you know, might be seen on a daily basis or have an escapism from the reality of the abuse can't. So, yeah, COVID on top of all the other things that are happening is definitely a time for me now where it's frustrating, you know, my little heart that I suppose I'm here to kind of today to talk about what the kind of whole Black Lives Matters agenda. So it's interesting from March I was involved with pre-safeguarding the whole COVID, what we're going to do with this and that. And I'm supporting organisations. I work with safeguarding in sports, safeguarding in faith, safeguarding in arts, safeguarding internationally and also community. So I'm quite familiar with all, hence my comment about knowing it doesn't discriminate. And, yeah, I was helping organisations in what will it look like now that we can't see people of concern or people who want to support, who want to support. And then with the May kind of agenda kicking in again, it went to almost overnight to the well-being of people on top of that. And in the UK, we spoke a lot about the BAME, Black Ethnic Minority, you know, groups and what it meant then being high risk for COVID. And then it kind of went down to actually BAME, Black and Asian, two different things, one's the colour and one the race. And then we started talking about the reality. So when it first happened in America, people in the UK, initially people kind of say, well, it doesn't affect us at all. You know, we're here and they're there and we're fine here in the UK. We are multicultural and we do work with each other well. And then I think reflection, Stephen Ranked, lots of other things coming on. People reflected and then the voice came, actually, it's very similar. Actually, it is here. And that's where I've been supporting organisations around thinking about what does it mean to us in the world we're living in, especially in England, you know, especially in England for our colleagues. So I work with lots of organisations from very elite to aristocrat kind of organisations, you know, very kind of empire, colonialism, kind of British and proud to local grassroots community groups, you know, and what does it mean for all of us? So today, hopefully, we're going to be talking about what that is based on our questions. Before we were just talking, can I show you my little dolly? Yeah, go for it. I want to see your doll. You have to describe your doll as well for those who are listening. I was explaining to Pookey about and Pookey and I've known her for many years. And I think there was a general conversation a few weeks ago, which is like, wow, we need to share this conversation because lots of people who are nervous or don't know what to say. And one of my roles, I'm a trustee for the Association of Child Protection Professionals and I've done a lot of stuff there, but we did a webinar there and I think I've talked to you about it there with colleagues and multidisciplinary about what language can we use, how can we support each other, you know, being kind of allies, et cetera. So I was explaining to Pookey that I've got two children, two daughters, a 12-year-old and a 16-year-old. And when the older one, in 2006, I wanted to buy her a baby Annabella, sorry for the advertising, but it was a little baby that you couldn't buy. Because at that time, I knew I wanted a second child, so I was trying to get a baby with a pram and a baby. So when mommy has a baby, you know, it could be something that she's got one to. And all of them were peach skin, couldn't get one. And at the time I was a manager of a team and I said to my colleagues, can anyone help me? And they did. And we went online and it took about two weeks to find a black baby Annabella. And that's an example of where colleagues can go to a shop to buy a doll that reflects their child or can go to a car shop to buy a card where, again, family. So I always buy cards and color them in brown. Do you? Yeah, because I know growing up, you know, I don't get offended if someone gets me a card with a kind of peach white person on it, but I know it's much more personal. So I know my husband, for example, it was Father's Day. So we got him a card from a person who now makes cards where before it was very difficult to find to get them online almost. So, yeah, so I got the baby Annabella and it was fine. And, yeah, so all those little things like I've just mentioned, even plasters, you know, nude plasters, the years you wear plasters that kind of peach colored and stand out. They're not nude. So little things like that. So anyway, I was explaining to Pukis that when I was 19, I went to America and I lost cabbage patch dolls and their cabbage patch dolls were something where, again, it was a craze at school and again, they were all white dolls. So when I went to America, I bought my own black cabbage doll. So I know she's very dark and obviously not the same complexion as me. And that's an example. Again, there was only one color and again, there's still a thing there about different colorings of black people, you know, in relation to all types. There's so many different shades of brown. And I like going to schools where this is Monica. I'll put her down there. Hello, Monica. And Marie's just showing her doll. If anyone listening to the audio because that was a doll that was quite a different color than memory. I don't even know what are the right ways to describe those different colors. But so Monica was like a dark. If you think about chocolate, she was like a very dark chocolate. Wasn't she think about digestive biscuits? She was and I'm kind of more of a maybe lighter milk chocolate. Would you say or caramel, you know, depends on the different shades of brown and that is one of the kind of challenges that I would normally experience in tights. So new types for me aren't nude, you know, I normally would go for black then year, light black then year. But again, there's little things, I think, in this whole conversation around the reality of the world I'm living in, in the UK, or since being born, should I say, in the world generally, that again, how my life might have been different to my colleagues, you know, like yours, for example, if you keep your colleagues, we know each other very well. We're natural friends, you know, we're natural friends. And now we're having a conversation, but we're natural friends. It's never about actually, you're different to me. We've never had that conversation. It's never been a part of our conversation with two women. We met, you know, we're both doing something with an organisation where you're mental health, I'm safeguarding. We've gotten very well and we've been in touch since. So, yeah, yeah. So I think that's why for my colleagues like yourself, we do have this conversation today. I feel quite nervous sometimes. Like, Marie, I've an email from a really powerful email from a colleague of mine, who's a co-worker. I've worked with about six years and she was very apologetic because she's very reflective, very therapeutic person to say she is something she never thought of. And now she's heard a lot about it. She appreciates that my experiences in the things we did together jointly would have been different to hers. Yeah. And she was right, you know, and I was able to have that conversation with her. I can empathise with that because certainly we originally were due to talk about a different topic, which we'll do later in the summer. But when we spoke earlier in the summer, this conversation, of course, came up and I never and I don't mean this in a I don't see colour kind of way, because I know that's that's not the way that we're meant to look at this now. But I don't think of when I think of you. I don't think of you in any way as anything, either then as my friend, if that's what kind of day it is, or as a safeguarding expert, if that's what kind of day it is, I just don't really think about whether you're tall or small or fat or thin or black or white. It doesn't feel very relevant. But when we spoke earlier in the summer and we did begin to think about race and what like everyday racism might look like. I think I was quite surprised, actually, yeah, just at how pervasive it is in your life and that we live nearby to each other. We have similar kind of careers. But yeah, your experience of every day is just really different than mine. And yeah, I guess I feel like your colleague a bit ashamed, perhaps I never really noted that and I wanted to learn more. That's fine. That's fine. And I think it's little things like, for example, again, in understanding it is makeup, you know, like even just going to shop to buy makeup or when we go, I travel for a bit of a snob. Apologies, only because I just always have that. I travel first class a lot, I do. And that's trains and airplanes. And every time I go to a business lounge, I can guarantee that I do is a horrible feeling, even though it should be a lot serious, but I do feel very, very excluded in that environment. And it's a weird thing to say. So people like you respect me from who I am professionally. Even I am that and I do lots of things in my professional role. It's almost I'm treated differently until people I introduce myself. And then it's like, oh, you're Ann Marie, because my name is very ordinary, isn't it? Very kind of British until you see me. I've been to gigs where person thought I was the administrator to the point where I was doing the gig, I was doing the kind of, and it was a very aristocrat kind of organisation. And there's a person there from a very well-established organisation, I mentioned the name. And he was okay when I was sourcing out my desk and I, you know, preparation for the IT on the day. Soon as I introduced myself, he kind of was confused. I thought you were the lady from the office. I didn't realise you were doing it. Oh, you're Ann Marie. It was embarrassing. But I've experienced that quite a few times to people almost shudding you when you're lining up for someone to go into a kind of, and then you go in and you sign, you get kind of bad for speaker and then a smile. Oh, you're Ann Marie. So it's just interesting that once you're established or you're recognised as that person, respectively, then all of a sudden it's nice and you get smiles. But until then, you're just seen as someone who's not so, yeah, it is kind of difficult at times. And I suppose in our conversation today, it's about what can we do? What can I do to support colleagues listening right now who need to kind of a better understanding of it? And I've been invited to a few panels, Pukie, actually, for the next few months to talk about it in different places. And I was talking to an international school about it and they were recognising little things that they're doing, like, for example, the policy about hair. So my hair's curly today. My natural hair is curly. This is my natural hair. I blowed, I know, but ordinarily before I would really wear it natural because a lot of the work I do is quite corporate. Yeah. So, you know, being corporate, looking corporate is quite important, isn't it? And over the lockdown, I've been very more confident now in wearing my hair curly and actually enjoying it and loving curly hair and knowing that I can sometimes I want to still blow dry it. But that's another thing that you expect it to look a certain way, you know, and if you don't look a certain way, then you don't kind of fit into the organisation. That makes sense. And I know, yeah, some people are here in it thinking, no, but it's that's how it feels when, again, I'm very corporate in my style anyway. You know, you see me when I go to, you know, I'm talking, I dress the part and I get that. That's etiquette, isn't it? That's kind of what you expect it to do. And I suppose we're living in New England, which is very Eurocentric. And that's fine because that's just the way we dress. But when it comes to lots of other things, you expect it to be a certain thing. Do you make sense? And when so I talk, my mother growing up in a household, my mother spoke very strong. It still does. It's very strong Jamaican Patwa. So my my year, you know, my first language would be this up to language, Patwa, you know, Jamaican Patwa. So I know when I'm more relaxed at home, I could talk loosely sometimes. But when I go to work, I talk like this. So growing up, my by default, I sometimes would go back to what my mother would say. And again, she did speak the Queen's English. And obviously her grammar would have been slightly different. So even though I've got my English low level, you know, I got there in the end. But the point was I remember being at school and people not believing in me because I came from a different family. So I think you were called back then subnormal. So normal, abnormal. Yes. Subnormal was so years ago, they had e-magic, ethnic minority achievement grant. I don't remember that back in the day, Puking. It was a very kind of 80s thing, 70s, 80s thing where children like me were seen as subnormal, basically. I've got books on it as well, reading up on it. And therefore, because we didn't talk or act a certain way, we were seen as not normal, and subnormal. Did you know that? Did you were you aware of that label? I was aware that when I was growing up in as a, you know, in primary and secondary school, I was aware that the system, I remember feeling different when I was about four. I remember the flesh barrel pencils. I remember barrel pencil school and they had a flesh coloured barrel pencil. And I remember drawing, I've always liked art and I remember drawing a picture of myself and was given the flesh coloured pencil. And I was only about four or five. You know, I think I was the reception, I think, then preschool, whatever. But I remember it now. And if I remember it now, my gosh, it must have really affected me, you know, in that bigger picture kind of head. And I also remember there was no when you were given paper, you're only given white paper to do portraits on. And then I think after a while, when I got to, like, primary, top end of primary, I might draw myself in brown. And I did postgraduate. I remember doing a course on therapeutic work with children and art and play therapy. And I remember the first thing I did in the kind of self-portrait thing that you do, you know, in your kind of training was a big picture of myself coloured it in brown first thing. And I did a big red heart and I did this hair. And I remember when you're analysing it, what came out was that was really strong, important to me. You know, my identity is really important to me. And my children, again, I was quite, when they were younger, luckily now I'm a reviewer for them called Letterbox Libraries. But again, like I did for Baby Annabella, I had to find books that reflected children like me. Because my first black author was when I was 14 years old. And also called Rosa Guy from America. I remember that again. But I think now I want my children to grow up in a place where they can see people look like them. And the bizarre thing is, which is really interesting, my daughter who's now 16, when she was two, I bought her a book, and it's an ordinary book, like an early year's book, going to the park, playing on the swings. But there's black girls in there, black children in there. It's a multicultural book, but black children too. And her colouring, you know, like mine. And I remember her saying, mommy, look, that's me. And it almost touched my heart and I got a bit tearful. Because that's what I wanted. So they've grown in a world where they can feel important, identity-wise, and touch wood, as two young adults and teenagers in a sense where they are now, they feel beautiful about who they are, and that's so important. Because when I was growing up, you know, it was predominantly not that, you know, I've always made to feel the ugly duckling, you understand? Always made to feel that, because the nature of billboards, imagine being billboards, everywhere you go, even I did make up a few big department stores in London, all of the billboards, all of the pictures of these glamorous white women, not one looked like me. And when you worked in beauty, I mean, were you working in beauty on, was that kind of multiracial work, or were you? No, so I worked for Black Americans, it's interesting, it was late 80s, and I worked for a Black American company who only did black makeup. So maybe naturally, I went to that because I felt beautiful in it. And you don't make sense because they had, and then they had women who looked like me, but they were American, I'm fine with that. And I remember big hair and everything, it was lovely. And yes, I started into my makeup and when I look at my old pictures, you can see the difference in my confidence. And as a big one, I could look at that now, but at the time, I didn't know that, I was still going through that journey. And since then, I've always felt confident knowing that I can still have things that look like me. Do you know what makes sense? So now we've got lots of companies that do black makeup, which is, again, even the main ones, that mention any names, they did a few selections, but they were very like three shades. I can imagine there's loads of shades of black and white. So now you can go to lots of different department stores and get makeup for all types, but back then it wasn't the case at all. So yeah, it's just one of those things we take for granted again, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's that kind of, that everyday racism kind of thing, exactly as you say, simple stuff like buying a plaster or a birthday card or your makeup, not being able to make those choices. But you think that your girls are in a bit of a different world than the one that you grew up in with regards to that. Do you think there's less of that? Most definitely, because they've also got black teachers. I didn't have any black teachers growing up. No black, I mean, my sister's on my, you know, my brother in the sister's at home, I'm the youngest of eight. So I've always had older people who've been, people look like me, who are positive people, you know? So for that, I suppose that was my inspiration in a way that they were successful and they were confident and they were quite corporate in what they were doing. So I always had that, but my children definitely know, yeah, in their world, they can see people like them. You know, mommy and daddy are role models, they've got decent jobs, you know, they go out there, they're fine, they live in a lovely house, you know. So everything's fine for them, but for me, and also they've got multicultural friends as well. Yeah. So they've got friends of all types, but also they're confident in who they are. Even ones that start to wear makeup now, but she knows that there's shades that she can go to automatically rather than like me at the time, there was nothing there that matched my shade. So I couldn't, you know, I just couldn't wear makeup in that way, which was fine, I did eyeliner, but I couldn't wear powder or anything because they were too pale. Wow. And what are the things that you think that your girls need to be kind of aware of? Have you had anything that's kind of come to mind or discussions that have come up as a family as a result of this kind of recent kind of interest through the Black Lives Matter? Yeah, so my, it's interesting, my daughters, again, they're both at secondary now, but when they were at primary, they, because in my family, it's very interracial. So my father's Asian, Indian, and my mother's son have got German. So we've got different shades in my family and my sister-in-law's Irish. So they grew up and even my younger one, both her godparents are white women. One's a very good friend of mine, English lady, and one's my sister-in-law. So for example, being, therefore, it's never been an issue, meaning their family are all. So because of that, it's always been something, any family gathering, we see black or white people, and et cetera. So it's never been a discussion until now with the whole power and balance and the discrimination, because until happy jolly family times, but when it comes to the real world, they're now recognizing, wow. So again, they recognize that sometimes people get treated differently because of, or people are kind of, I would say demonized, but they can see how just because you've got a certain color, does that mean the peace is gonna stop you? You know, et cetera. So I've got a decent car. Touch word, I've never been stopped by the police in that. But I remember, it's funny, last night I was thinking, I remember in my 20s, I used to get stopped by the police. When I graduated, I remember I liked cars. I've always been maybe the Tom girl and me from having five brothers, I've always liked cars. And I used to buy decent cars that were affordable again. And I remember when I first had a car Audi, I loved the Audi A3 and I bought it and I graduated after my little present to myself. And I remember again, D stopped a few times in that car. And looking back now, I remember thinking, how did it feel at the time? And it wasn't because I was a young black female in a car that they would assumed I couldn't afford, do you understand? But yeah, so I suppose the world they're living in, they wouldn't have known that, but yeah, we've had conversations and they know that sometimes when I was younger, it was different for me than how it would be for them. And we told them that hopefully, they're gonna be in a world where there is no power imbalance and they can achieve anything they want to. And luckily in my family, I would have had that. My mom's always been that person who said, the world's your oyster ran, go for it. If you don't shoot, you don't score. So that's always been my motto. And I've said that my husband same as my children. So they've got that kind of same value rather than what's the point because you're not gonna do it because of discrimination. I've never had that attitude. Yeah, yeah. Do you think your life experience has shaped what you kind of chose to do because you essentially are always championing the underdog and you're trying to make life fair for people? Is that a fair reflection? Yeah, definitely. I definitely, it's funny until you analyze things like that and it's only recently I suppose in that whole voice not have been invisible, it was a massive work for me. I was invisible for many years. And at the time I didn't realize that until now as an adult, I know, that makes sense. So being invisible at school, I was invisible. In my first work, I was invisible. I remember people assuming I was an interpreter and I had to go to meetings and I first qualified as a social worker. I remember colleagues assuming that I smoked marijuana. I've never touched it in my life. Assume that I was a single parent. I had no children at the time. Assume that I went to a clappy, clappy church. Don't, you know, there's so many assumptions. And then even when Black services used to come in and I saw them as kind of relating to them as an experience of discrimination. And again, it's something that's just unspoken by the way. You don't talk about it with people. You just understand their journey. The ones that were labeled troublemakers that police were called on before were fine with me. Come in, sit down, hello, talk to her, et cetera. And then I started getting allocated all the Black cases. Fine, okay. And then it was interesting. And they were fine as in, they weren't those label people anymore. There were people who were moving on, engaging to the point they'd come in the office and look for me, et cetera. But the point there was people assumed then, I'll never forget this actually, they assumed that I was related to them. They assumed that I was their friend. No, they know them, but I just, I respected them and in social work, two principles, non-discriminatory practice and anti-racist practice and being non-judgmental. So I remember one lady, bless her little socks. I call her Miss A for this example. She, bless her. She came from another country, African continent. And let's forget, yes, bless her. She was a Maverick character. She was a person who potentially, if people didn't understand her, they think she had mental health issues, but she clearly was a very expression, a very heightened woman. And I'll never forget one, they've got a phone call to say that her children were running around naked outside and she was killing a chicken on the front door. So if you imagine, blue siren. Rrr, rrr, rrr. And you know what, it was, she was doing what she would be doing in Africa. So Caribbean and African people, cleans things, our food is different in relation to how we process things. But she was washing her chicken, plucking her chicken on the doorstep as a hot day and her children were running outside on the doorstep. She looked like in the cul-de-sac anyway. There was no, you know, and yes, they were naked, meaning they had like pants on, but, and she wasn't killing the chicken. She was just cleaning the chicken. Are you washing the chicken in lemon juice and plucking out the heads? You know, she actually bought the chicken. She didn't kill the chicken. The chicken was already bought from the shop, but we still go back and burn hairs, you know, upon the chicken. So that's an example of there was no drama. And actually she wasn't sectioned because she wasn't crazy. Yeah, so that's an example. That's an example of how then they saw me as colluding. And actually I just saw what I saw, you know, or when she'd come in and she was really wound up, she was a lady who was frustrated because she wasn't heard. Yeah. So, you know, when you look at the kind of layers of all, so yes, I suppose in every role I had, there was an element there of, and in this particular borough, I remember people saying to me, don't work there because they're very, they're quite a racist borough. I remember, and it didn't put me off because my mother's motto again was, you don't shoot, you don't score. Yeah. And I made it, and I was the only black person in that team for about seven years. Wow. And again, I'll give you another example. This is funny. This is an example of an experience you're gonna like. You pookie bee pookie, I can tell you. So back then a lot of the girls in the team were single, including myself. And it was a lovely place where there's a lot of nightlife and bars down the road, so we used to go there after work. Anyway, there was a new person, a colleague, who's in another, he was a teacher from a school who'd been one of our patch, who'd just started. And he was a dish, I think he was a bit dishy. He was a cute guy. So all of the girls, when he used to come into the office for meetings from, you know, about children at the school, they'd do themselves up, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they'd all push themselves up. It was quite funny, you know, in that way. So, and I was like this kind of, sorry, the expression, but you know, like black sheep, the person that wasn't ever considered as anything. And what was so interesting was, they used to do that, push themselves up and being the beautiful blonde they were and everything else and being seen as beautiful in that way. And I was this person who was not seen or considered. So anyway, it was fine. And we had these meetings, et cetera. And I was being these meetings with him, et cetera, because it was like a network meeting, et cetera. And being myself, et cetera. And I'll never forget the day when I went to meet in his school and I wasn't chasing him like they were, though, right? But he was dishy. He said to me something, he made a comment. He made a comment that suggested he understood black women, it's quite interesting. For me, because it's like black women or black people, when we have a bath or shower, we have to clean our skin because our skin gets quite dry or it looks gray. So on that day, I remember wearing shoes and I think I had a bit of dry skin on my leg. And he said, oh, we haven't cleaned the skin today. I was like, oh, wow, I was a bit embarrassed. But he said it in the joke way, like, ha ha. And I was thinking, oh, he understands black women. Until then, I just thought, you know, so again, it was my stereotype thinking, oh, here we go, blah, blah, blah, thinking just another person that I'm working with that my colleagues really adore. And then he said, we must do lunch one day. And actually, it's so interesting that he then invited me for lunch. And I was surprised because I've fed into that whole thing of what they're into as in, I don't want to be considered and they're all the beauties. That makes sense. Yeah, that's an example of, again, where it was the laughter was on me in the end and I did meet him for lunch. Ha ha. Ha ha. But the example was they would never have thought that and up to this day, they'd never know that because they've never told them. Wow. And that's interesting though. So that was partly about how you were perceived by others but that sounds like it was as much about your own perception of yourself. And do you know why? Because in ordinary times, when you go out there, and this is where the white privilege comes in, you see white people all the time and you expect white people, again, I know there's so people who are friendly to me and I don't mean this in a very, you're horrible and you're friendly person but I just mean when I go out ordinarily, say like to get social, like go to work or I get on the train or I go to a conference and I'm sitting in the audience. People who kind of naturally sometimes sit around me are cool as in they make me feel comfortable, they smile, they greet, hi, how are you, yeah, fine. And then there's people who don't completely exclude you. So you can always tell the sort of people, the white people who are used to, who've grown up with or well-traveled to know that I'm just another person rather than she's a black person, get that sense. So going back to that example, and over the decades I've learned more about that but I used to put people in a pigeonhole where I assume that people wouldn't understand black people because the way they made me feel told me he didn't. So until you've come and approached me like you for example, we got a naturally regardless. So I knew that you're a person that you're very multicultural and to you, you've got people of all types because I was just another of a female that got on well with you. There's nothing about color there. Compared to some people who I could tell that I'm not used to being next to kind of black people and don't know or nervous or actually say offensive things, you understand? So again, over the years now they stand at a mile, the ones who are more comfortable and inclusive. Fine, you understand? And even when you go on the outside, you notice that straight away, then the first three seconds you can pick up on someone who relates to you as a person, hence the word person. Yeah, and it's all that. So a message today would be, relating to that person as a woman, as a mother, as a professional, as a colleague, full stop and then understanding that my story being different because of the color I'm in, that the world deceived me. It's interesting, I did some training for a massive fostering agency, Boogie Last. I go there every year to do my annual bit, but it was in Kent, eat heart of white Kent, yeah? The real Kent and again, I popped up being on Marie, oh, okay, and then within half an hour, they realized I'm a bit crazy and she's funny, ha ha, rather than, oh, I see people like you on the paper and oh, I'm not sure about you. I believe me, I could sense that. To the point then, at the end, I twisted it round and we did a bit about unconscious bias and I said to them, so what do you see in front of you? And one of them would say, black woman, fine, because I was trying to make a point of, you're gonna have children in a black place with you and how are they feeling you're organized in your home, you understand? And what was interesting, they are all inclusive and don't see race. However, they weren't aware or until this day or considered that their neighbors would see the color more than them. I see. Do you understand? So when that child goes into the town, they're gonna be seen differently compared to how they feel in that home. I see, so as a foster carer, they had a responsibility to think not only about their own perception, but the perception of the people around them. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And the experiences for that foster child going into town and how that would feel, because that's something, again, we've learned to internalize it and that sounds terrible saying it. It does sound terrible saying it. And I think until now, I've internalized so many things because it's almost one of those things that you just have to do, I wouldn't say deal with, it's just part of life. Yeah. But we're not educating people around us to understand that we're internalizing and what we're internalizing. And I think that's a massive thing about Black Lives Matter at the moment is we're able to have a voice. Yeah. Do you feel, though, like I wonder a little bit with the situation at the moment, do you feel a pressure to be the face of, because there's not loads and loads of people in your kind of position who are Black, who can speak up for, do you know what I mean? Do you feel a responsibility to speak up for people of color? Or I don't know what words you wanna use. Yeah, exactly. So I feel I'm quite, the word privileged for me means I've got a platform. That's the only privilege I would have in this platform. So when I do public, I've been, it's interesting, last night again, my reflection moments, I've been in keynote speaking for 19 years, it's 2001. And in all those, and I thought about it, I thought, wow, in all of those conferences I've done or keynotes, et cetera, I've only seen about a handful, think about 20, 19 years, a handful of Black speakers. Really? So 99% of the time, and all of those 19 years, I would have been the only Black keynote speaker. Okay. Wow. In England, this is obviously, because internationally it's slightly different, but even then I'm, again, normally the only Black speaker. But going back to that message then, at the moment, I've been brave enough in some of those opportunities I have because of the platform I'm in, to make comments about it comfortably, that people can have a conversation, because some people have got this kind of thing where, can I know, if I got upset and reacted to some of the things I experienced, I'd be seen as an aggressor, Black woman of an attitude. And one thing I've been talking about recently, I'm not on my other forums, have been, this year, I was going to Bristol, quite a member-wide, one of my gates, I suppose, and I was at Paddington Station, on the Concourse. And a lady dropped a beautiful Prasmena on the floor. I love scoffs. You know, I put them all the time, because I love scoffs. So, and I knew it was a wealth of expensive ones. I picked it up to give it to her, and then she turned around, and she almost screamed and jumped, like, say, how do you know, like I'm a mic in her, sort of thing. The point I'm making is, my handbag was worth more than, I'm not bragging, but you know one of those things, when you actually- You're bragging a little bit. Oh, right, I'm making it. But the point I'm making is, really, you know, my wallet is worth more, you know what makes sense? So the point I'm making is, people would have just seen this, and they're like, lady, shouting, rather than actually, I was giving her her lost scarf, but no one else was done. That was the point. And I was dressed appropriate, as in, even, does that matter, but I was dressed like I was going to work, I had my briefcase with me, et cetera, suitcase, et cetera. But that's an example, again, of I can talk about that. People who know me, would think I've got a good heart, they know I've just been kind of caring, rather than trying to take the lady's scarf. So you're using your platform to try and actually open up some of these pretty thorny conversations at the moment, but you are one person, and as you say, you're not experiencing much diversity in those kind of lineups. So actually that makes me think, well, then what's the role of like me and other people with white skin to try and promote this agenda as well? I mean, is it right for me to do that? What's my role here? You know, it's interesting. So two things. The first one was language. So am I in that language in a minute, okay? The second thing you're saying here is about understanding the experiences off, okay? So yes, my identity is it varies. Depends what mood I'm in. I might be called like the cool black woman or woman of color or black British. It really depends what mood I'm in on the day, okay? And again, with language, it depends on, so think about how you pronounce a name, okay? It's quite personal, isn't it? You know, like I know you grew up in London, you grew up in a different part of the country. And again, maybe you identify like that sometimes or not. You know, it all varies, isn't it? Depending on that day how you feel. Yeah? So I saw you made a quote about your cider or something, didn't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a graph of heaven, yeah. Yeah, that's right. So I know for me, again, really depends on how I feel the day, I think it's going on for me. And I think going back to, you know, what you just mentioned there about people like yourself and, and it looks to be a really good tip that I showed at another gig where she's been interviewed by Dr. Shola, and Dr. Shola has done a lot in the press a moment about this. And she was saying about analytics for saying, what can I do? Like what you're saying, to help. You know, I want to be part of it, am I welcome? And Dr. Shola says, of course you are, you know, you, you know, you are an ally in it as well, meaning you could help us and give us that kind of platform of helping us to challenge the racists, to helping us. So you are one of us, because you can, you're including and you're using the privilege to, you know, help challenge people who've got the same privilege as you. Yeah. So there's a really powerful clip at the moment, picture of Marilyn Monroe and seeing it with Ella Fitzgerald. Yes, that if she sat in the front of her gigs then. Yeah, yeah. And you know what? This sounds really weird, but that's, I felt that a few times. So I've got a few colleagues, one that we both met through. And I met her about, about six years ago. And again, she's given me that, she's my Marilyn Monroe. She's exposed me to lots of organizations that I wouldn't have had in that shadow I would have been in. Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what makes sense? So again, until I recommended to somebody, and again, my name is Plain, then they see me. Oh, okay. I've worked for quite a few, a few big independent organizations with the kind of aristocrat plot as well. And I'm an ordinary name and they introduced me with my email, but when they see me, it's like, oh, okay, didn't realize that. But again, I get used to it. But the point being, I suppose, I suppose in helping people to understand it, I, you know, that picture I just talked in this morning before you kind of started recording Pookie about the young black, white girl looking in the shop window with black dolls. There's hundreds of black dolls and there's white girls looking in and that's a reality, I suppose. The reality is, how does that girl feel? And I had one of my daughter's friends, mom said to me the other day, I had to drop her off on a play date the other day. And she goes, I wasn't telling her the day and I thought, oh my God, now I know how you feel. And it was a picture of, it was a group of black women out and there was one white lady there. And she said, wow, Anne, you know what? Until I saw that, now I'm realizing what this is all about. You understand? So for some people, there's going to be a few triggers that's going to make them realize, oh, you know, a bit like if any of you've been to Africa, Caribbean or Asia where you get off the plane and you're the only white person in this land. Yeah, that's what it's like for us in that way. And like what you said, I'm not the voice for all. I'm only going to bionic my own experiences. I know some black people who hate the word colored because, and I get that because color, colored is a word I don't like either. Woman of color is different than colored because colored we know is kind of linked to slavery trade, et cetera. And even still, we will never have power. So the whole thing about racism, discrimination is the power that comes with people of an organization or of the Institute of the Empire. So white people seen as being superior, and I get that across the world in other places as well with the kind of countries they've been to. But yeah, there is a sense always that we're not as good as white people, or if you say anything, it's because you've got a chip in your shoulder. So you can never get it right rather than diplomat, because I'm quite a diplomatic person. So when I experience things like that, I don't get angry. I feel sorry for those people. It's a bit embarrassing. I remember years ago, about 30 years ago, being out with my brother, and my brother used to love Michael Jackson. He used to do moonwalk, write a wedding, I think. And this little white boy comes along and do moonwalk with him. He said, oh, anyway, I can't talk to you because you've got brown skin. And he ran off. So there's a lot of little things that you hear along the way. Even I know nurseries two years ago, and this is like my safeguarding role, two incidents of white children saying, you've got brown skin, we can't play with you. So with Brexit, people don't appreciate this Black Lives Matter thing actually got worse before COVID. So the Brexit triggered tension in the UK. And I saw that in my work. I definitely saw that in my work with kind of the wellbeing of people and the increase of extremist groups growing and the tension. And even, we live near each other. I went to my local supermarket. And because I'm now more clued up with training I've been on around extremism, even in my updates during COVID, I noticed a sticker on the car park, fine. And I went up to it. I took a picture because it was quite small. And it was actually a white extremist sticker in my local supermarket. So I thinking, and I was a car park as well as underground car park, I was like, whoa, I'm a little bit scared now. And that is my local supermarket that I go to. Wow. Every... That's really interesting. See, I always think that one of the things that I think is better for my children than for me, you know, I grew up in Devon where I think I've told you before I looked up the Ofsted report of the junior school that I went to and there was of 500 children, one black kid. And she actually wasn't there for long. She was, I think she must have been in foster care. And I remember that she was given all sorts of nicknames because of the color of her skin, but she was like the first black child that any of us ever interacted with. And my assumption is that maybe she was removed and, you know, went somewhere where she perhaps had a bit more of a mix. But yeah, so I grew up in a very, very white place. But my children are growing up in Croydon and they have a whole range of different kind of color of friends, all sorts of different sorts of friends of all type. And I think that that is one of the nice things that does come for them of living in Croydon. You know, one of their very best friends is mixed race. And they have interesting conversations around, now they're getting a little bit older, my girls are 10 and they talk about hair and stuff. And I remember when their friend came to stay and I had no idea how to manage her hair. She came... Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, yeah, it was really, really hard. But we had great fun learning together and we were able to do that in a... Yeah, I don't know. It felt like a really natural and nice way and my girls were able to be inquisitive about it and we were able to explore and talk to her mum about, well, how do you manage this kind of hair and the products and that kind of thing? But I think, yeah, I think that's nice for my kids that they're in this much more diverse environment. But it sounds like, yeah, maybe it doesn't feel so diverse for you and that there's still that undercurrent of racism. Yeah, because even like going back to Mixed Race, there's, I remember a book I reviewed years ago for Letterbox and it was like, my mother's an alien. It was actually about a Mixed Race child whose mum was white and compared to this little brown girl, her mum was white, you know? So you could be in it, so looking at, you know, I could have been the girl, you could have been my mum. You know? So my identity and my role model would have been a white person and that's happening. I've heard quite a lot of that at the moment. Again, the Invisible Race being Mixed Other and people who, again, I know my daughter's friend's the same in that she's half Asian. So in the summer, she gets a decent brown tan. And she, again, her parents have seen a different experience they have there in the summer than they would have done in the winter. So we're learning so much at the moment around what it means to those individuals and how people perceive things. And I suppose, again, a test that I think, and this is, again, my amary personal thing is, if you, one of the first things to check as an individual is outside of work, have you got any friends who don't look like you? Oh, good question. Okay. Do you make sense? I know I have. And I know we're crazy, you know, and that's fun. And I've always had that. And I can see my nephews are the same and my children are similar. Do you make sense? But I could argue my older siblings don't have that as much as I've got it. You know, and it's obvious distance with me and my older sibling. But in all my life, my best friends at school have been white, at college were white, at uni were white, you know. So I get on with all and actually better some time. I say better meaning naturally, personality. It's nothing about color. And I've got a mixture of all types of friends, from black, Asian, white, you know, sexuality as well. So I've always been that very person about the person. Maybe it's like it said in my vocation about seeing the person within everything else. And I think that's one of the first tests, I think, again, is that for yourself, if you're listening and thinking what does that mean for me? Have I gotten your friend, don't look like me, you know, outside of work? And if not, why not? And if you happen, it doesn't mean you're a bad person. It just means why has that not happened? So checking on your unconscious bias about that sometimes because sometimes, I remember years ago when in the 90s, I was dating a guy in America and I think early 90s, I was going, my uncle, I used to go stay with him in New York. And he used to say to me, and again, being a person almost at the time, very multicultural with my friendships. And in New York, he used to say, oh, and you know, don't move an accent, but he said, we have white people on the job, but we don't mix out after work. And he was very clear about that. And I thought that was a bit weird. I thought it was a bit weird. That when I look, I think there was a research thing a few years ago in the Metro, Mookie about London being a melting pot, but actually it's a false, it's a false hope of such a word because actually we don't mix after work. We're not genuine friends. We know people, we don't mix after work. Do you understand? Yeah. And you might have, and then get me wrong. You don't have to have copies or drinks with people. Just have friendships with people. So I know I've got people like you, there are people I've got friendships with who I can know that, yes, I have got that reflection. There's just little things like that of, does that mean you generally don't give people opportunities to kind of be your friends or have you got your unconscious bias that you put them in pigeonholes? It's interesting how you categorize people they see, because I was thinking about it as we've been talking. And I mainly, my friends tend to be men, but of all the females that I'm friends with, color and ethnicity has got nothing to do with it, but they're all universally really strong women. So actually my friendship group of women isn't especially diverse. Yes, it is in terms of ethnicity and color, but in terms of type, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like I have, yeah, remarkable women in my life, but only remarkable women, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, and I think maybe there's room for a bit more diversity in other ways as well, but it's really interesting. What do you think should be the other things? Like, you know, as a parent it's making me wonder what are the things that I need to be doing for my children to make sure that I'm getting this right as a mum? I think it goes back to, again, positive from one's of all. So for example, books, but also films, watching like hidden figures, things where they're gonna see black people in a positive experience rather than slaves or maids or, you know, I've worked with roots, you know, roots wasn't great for me. Yes, it was a reality of what's happened to my ancestors, et cetera, but in school it's sort of almost ignored. So I'm glad now we're at a point and my children know about black history. So they know that actually about Mary Seacall, they know all the things about the Jamaica or the Caribbean. They know about the Windrush, they know all of the people who fought in the war. So when we see Vida, we also see our own people who are part of it that are not represented in the day-to-day. That makes sense. So they already can see slight discrimination because they're not included in. So I think it's little things where you make a point of ensuring that your children experience different types of other children, you know. And I've had emails from colleagues from the Cotswolds, for example, saying, oh, I wanna make our children more inclusive, but we're living somewhere where we can't. What can I do? And again, it's about introducing in your home the films, the resources, the books, the conversations. I've had people through training say, I'm scared of black people. Why? Because when I grew up, we did mix of black people. Well, okay, well, are you scared of me then? And they pause, meaning I seem okay, but they might be scared of me because I might switch on them. Because in their family or in their lifestyle, they read papers where people who look like me are seen as criminals or immigrants, you understand? So this whole thing about immigrants, like, you know, I think my daughter said to me, so why is it when English people go abroad, they're seen as expats, that we're seeing that other people come over immigrants? It's really interesting. You know, like language. There's certain little languages that, and I can answer to be honest, but there's little things that sometimes just feels a bit more negative. And why is immigrant a word with negative connotations anyway? Like, I think it's immediate again, isn't it? It's immediate, the media making it, immigrants coming over, not accepted foreigners. You know this whole foreigner thing? And I still get that sometimes, even on British passport. You know, the thing about where you're really from, British, British passport. No, where you really are from, I'm black British. And sometimes I sit on there deliberately thinking, I'm going to make it hard for you because I know what you're trying to say. But yeah, it doesn't really matter. And if so, and why, you know, this whole thing about the tray of eggs being different shades, you know, we've got yoke in them. So I think for anyone today, it's just them making, being reflective on the next time they see a person of color again, we're all individual people, okay? And therefore, in order to engage with that person, they need to feel connected. And I read a comment at the start of that Life Matters that really kind of I could kind of relate to. And it was, it feels like being in the same space that there's no connection. Ooh, that's what it feels like in how racism feels. And the connection is again, where you have no power. So no matter what you say, you're not being heard, you're invisible in there. So it's like being invisible in a room where there's other people. That's what it feels like in everything we do. That's not cool. Yeah, that's how it feels. That's how it feels. And not all the time, but when we do experience it, that's the feeling we get. And do you ever feel any kind of guilt, I guess, about the fact that you do have the privilege of often having the stage and holding people's attention perhaps in a way that not everyone does? Sometimes it feels like a bit of pressure because I have people look at me representing the race and I don't, I only represent Anne Marie and my experiences. And everyone's, so some people get annoyed, some people, some black people are annoyed with me to think, you know, I tell the real story. You make sense? And I'm a personality of all our own individuals that I'm giving you my account. And my account is still worth something compared to, and so with the other person, but the story is everyone's got their own story. So it's hearing different stories. The pressure I would have is, again, some people think I'm too polite about it, as I said, but my experience had been different because yes, I've experienced racism 100%. However, my values have been different because my mother's installed in me, you're worth more. Do that make sense? So I didn't have installed in me, you're black therefore, you're never gonna be successful. I've never had that installed in me. I've had installed in me. The world's your roaster, go for it. And I've used that in my journeys through my life. Hence, I have these opportunities. But it has been challenging. It has been very challenging being the only black person a lot of the time in lots of things. And I still do that now. Being a speaker for things, the only black person when all my other colleagues aren't. Or being a chair, sometimes I chair panels. As in conferences, I might be the chair. And again, not having the same status, even though I'm the chair, people kind of don't respect my decision sometimes. Do you ever get positive discrimination where people are perhaps, you know, because we are trying to perhaps be a bit more, I don't know, forward thinking in terms of race and ethnicity when making up panels and things. Do you ever feel that you're there and people are inviting, you know, I sometimes feel this, I will get invited because of I'm autistic or that I have I feel I'm in tic-toc. I'm mostly about my mental health. And I don't wanna be there for that reason. I wanna be there because I'm an expert in my field. I would say, it's interesting, because of my profession and my professional role, no, that makes sense. So I know it's always been safeguarding. Yeah. So if I get a sudden increase then now, I'll say, yeah. Yeah. But you know, another thing I'll share with you, when I went from being a school-based social worker, and went to managing a bit of massive role in the local authority, you know, when my salary jumped up by 10 grand increase and then sort of roles when you kind of go from an ordinary to a senior role. And in that role, let's forget. So I'm yet to go to an interview where there is a black person on the panel, by the way. That's just never. I think, honestly, maybe one. And I'm thinking, but you know, meaning one out of many. Wow. So I've got this job, it's funny, I've got this job, it's just weird. I've got this job and other people went for the job and I got the job and I was the younger one and the only black one. So in slot on this job, the first day, let's forget, the director of the local authority took me to lunch, if I really would. So I went to lunch, I was a nobody, meaning I knew to the bar, I went to lunch, this beautiful part of, you know, where it was. Having our kind of lunch that you do, et cetera. Didn't have to say, you can imagine, you know, airs and graces, et cetera. Good, yeah. Yeah. So we did this role and after a while, you know, it felt like to me, you know, like, it's not even funny, but thinking about it is quite amusing. You remember trading places, Eddie Murphy? I really felt like it was trading places. I really felt that I got the job and I was managing a lady who could have got the job, who was more the white middle class kind of thing, who didn't get the job. And she, therefore, I was her manager. So, you know, trading places, but I had the power and the job and she didn't. And for a while I felt like I was this person who had privileges like Eddie Murphy didn't trade in places. Yeah? Yeah. I made decisions and we went to all these board meetings and looked the part. And looking back, I think, again, I know I got the job because I had more experience compared to my colleague, yeah? Yeah. However, it felt like Eddie Murphy time. It felt like I was kind of like trading places. Does that make sense? Yeah. So sometimes, if you think about white privilege, trading places, again, is a good film to start, isn't it? In how he felt, yes, don't get me wrong, he was known to the police, et cetera, and for the choplifting, and it's a different event, isn't I get it? But when he did get that whole experience of these people, again, it was only over a dollar, but his lifestyle is exposed to, and then he became friends with the person. But that's an example of how colour and race and status impact how you're perceived outside. Yeah. And that you have to work almost that bit harder to the same. Yeah, you do, you do. And I think going back to your original question that you just had about, sometimes I do feel a bit tick-boxy, sometimes. But because safeguard, I only get invited to safeguarding things. Does that make sense? So therefore, I fit the role. And you are just the best person for it. I mean, that's it. You are always the person I pick the phone up to, when I'm, yeah, when I'm struggling. And also, I think it's not just that you have that expertise on so many levels, but that you always tell it straight. And I think I have huge respect for that. I know that if I've got something wrong, you'll just tell me, which not everyone does. And I get, you probably get that too, that when you work relatively high in your field, that you don't get much constructive criticism always. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for that. I respect that as well. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. But yeah, and I do find that as well, each comment you just made as well. But I think the, yeah, I've been invited. It's interesting. So away from my safeguarding role, I've been invited to a few panels going forward about, I'm part of the Bay Med Network. If none of you don't know it, it's a, you know, of it. It's a panel, it's basically a place where a lot of people can now know they can go to get black professionals who are worth their field. And they happen to be black. Rather than people not knowing. And I've been invited to speak to a few about black, about the whole experiences of, and what can organizations learn from it? You know, so that would be a tick box. But I'm in a way where actually we're having a conversation like we are today. Yeah, yeah. Rather than only. And I think you know what, sorry. Sorry, go on. Another quick thing. I read an article at the start of this. I think I told you in our first conversation, written by a person who, I'm going to talk about racism and safeguarding. Okay? And I thought, wow, a good article, read it. And it touched the size, but it wasn't a real in-depth kind of conversation. It's by a very good organization. I got a lot of respect for. And I know them very well. And I rang them and said, you know, wow, I'm in your emails, you've emailed me because of this article. But I felt that you really missed the point here and you've got a massive audience. Point being, I spoke to the person who wrote it. The person who wrote it is female, white lady, white privilege. She wrote it and I spoke to her about it. So that's great. However, she's married to a person who's not British. Therefore her name reflects a non-British person, but she's bright British. She spoke about an experience she had when someone assumed that she was of that country of being in Europe and tortured with her mouth and then the sigh of relief that they had when they realized she was English. Okay? So even in that conversation, it's fine, but she didn't get the point. The point I was making was, I was thinking, can a man write about sexism of a woman? Can a tall person write about being short? Can a skinny person write about obesity? So when it comes to this, and I don't know the answer to be honest, Pukie, but I've just been out there as far as people, and don't get even like a white woman who's got a mixed race child, can she experience the same life that her child will? Do you understand? Yeah. So it's quite complicated. Maybe she should try. Yeah, and I've experienced both. I've experienced some women who really do when they're on it and they're challenging it. Like my daughter's godmother is one of those people. She grew up from her childhood in places within the community. So she kind of has grown up where people are discriminated against and her child is also part of that. So she kind of really gets it and will challenge all the way. And her son's got a very good insight into that and very successful too. Compared to somewhere, it's been a bit of a tick box where they're there, but they're not emotionally involved because they're in love, they love each other. And love is lovely, but love doesn't kind of highlight these experiences that people that you love are experiencing. Yeah. So yeah, so I think having a courageous conversation and making sure that we're listening and understanding. Because if you start with that, then you can turn the next page together with an understanding of that person. And language is important as well. So making sure that if you are working with people of difference, again, like you would for a non-binary person really, all those sexuality things where how shall I refer to you as in a way that how do you prefer me to pronounce your name or how do you prefer me to identify you as in your ethnicity? So I think all the little things are just like you would ordinarily, but saying it. Because then that person's given the kind of responsibility to say it's about you. So be curious, I guess, isn't it? Be courageous and be curious and don't be afraid to ask questions, feels quite important. Yeah, and I think inclusion is a massive one. So if you go to the basics of another, that's another female, that's another male, that's another mother, you know, rather than black person. Yeah. So I think it's just trying to remove it. But then going back to remembering ethnicity is a factor that is going to shape the experience of the person's life. So you have to remember the discrimination that person's also faced. Because that's not gonna help. So what I'm saying here is in summarizing, I'm trying to think the message I'm gonna give out is, yes, they're a person, however, their life experience it could be different to yours. So what lens have you got on today? So their lens in them and they go out, experience is something different than you're gonna see. So when I go to place with my white colleagues, like if you and I went for a drink somewhere, I might feel different in that place that we're in the tea shop, for example, being people don't, there's not a lot of people who look like me there, which isn't a bad thing. But then does that mean people are gonna see me for a friend of yours having a cup of tea with or the woman over there who kind of stands out because she doesn't mix in, you know? Do you make sense? So some of them I call them areas that are quite beige, beige is the non-multiculture. I've been to loads of places in England and some of them are not beige. And sometimes I really feel a bit uncomfortable and nervous. I say that more with Brexit prior to kind of COVID, nice to go out. I felt really uncomfortable once, like I thought I was gonna be attacked. So, where you would never have thought of that. Maybe if somebody's making people uncomfortable in intimidating way, of course you would. But you know, intersectionality is important as well, isn't it? Yeah. All those layers. What thought would you like to leave people with maybe some sort of practical ideas about the things that we can all be doing kind of every day to try and tackle this? I think it's checking yourself unconscious bias. That's the first starting point, like I mentioned. So how would you feel if your niece or nephew, your child, the son daughter, brought home a black person partner? And naturally, how you'd feel, that is your real answer, isn't it? But it's emotional and it's personal. So once you experience that, the next thing you've got to be thinking of is, okay, have I got any personal friends or in my life, from childhood to now, have I had genuine experiences with somebody of a different color, that was positive, rather than fighting algea and da da da, okay? So all those little things will make, that's your check, isn't it? Your internal checks, I think. And with that, you know your answer, don't you? Then you'll know where and why you're doing what you're doing and then what you need to be doing to make that effort of trying to, recognizing I've been carrying this all my life, my values, moral compass. And now I'm understanding what it means, because I've got the white privilege, I've never thought about it until now. And the more we get on the better at that and become the kind of, the whole allies thing, being an ally in it, then the more we're gonna actually be that person to make an effort to sit nearer to that person, to make them feel like, actually fine, because I can tell you now, I've been that person until excluded for a long while. People don't sit next to me at conferences, because I'm an ordinary person until they introduce my name, you understand? So it's just those little things of making a difference, making people like me feel included, not make us feel visible, not invisible. Smiling, just nice little things, it just makes a difference. And I've seen people making a difference since Black Lives Matters in giving you eye contact and smiling, morning, you'd be surprised, that's just like respect for me, rather than expecting me to jump and walk out. Even when you're going down the street, people expect you to walk out of their way. Why do I also have to walk out of your way? If I don't, then I'm in the wrong. You understand? There's those little things that you kind of, I think that white people take for granted again, that we're expected to do things, otherwise we're the aggressor, when actually we're both equal here, we're both people, then we should respect each other.