 About today's topic, more and more people are talking about the wave of new innovation in hearing devices, emerging hearing, hearables, and different types of ways to address the unmet need of our clients. So some people are questioning, what does it mean for audiology? What opportunities are out there? And is this setting the scene for the foundation for augmented, audio augmented reality of the future? So Soundbytes today invited experts in the field on the panel to share their views on where we're heading in the future of hearing tech. Introducing our first panelist, Dr. Brent Edwards, is the director of National Acoustic Laboratories. For over 22 years, he headed research at major hearing aid companies and at Silicon Valley startups. And they've developed innovative technologies and clinical tools used worldwide. Dr. Edwards is a fellow of the Acoustical Society of America and a junked professor at Macquarie University. So on the screen, you can see Brent and I've read out our director's bio so many times and I'm still impressed with the amount of expertise and influence he has built in our industry. And our guest panelist today is a serial entrepreneur who has developed a thorough knowledge of the global technology and innovation marketplace during his 25-year executive career. He co-founded and is the CEO of NewHera. We welcome Justin Miller to Soundbytes. And NewHera is a global leader in smart personal hearing devices, which changes people's lives by enhancing the power to hear. NewHera has developed proprietary and multifunctional intelligent hearing technology that augments a person's hearing and facilitates cable-free connection to smart devices. So Brent and Justin, our audience today has a mix of clinical experts and technology gurus, and we're curious about what you do. So perhaps if you could describe your organization and what role does innovation play in your organization? Sure, so maybe I'll go first. Thanks, Xiaoyan. And Justin, great to see you. Thanks for joining us today. So for those of you who don't know, the National Acoustic Laboratories are now, as we call it. We are a research center focused on hearing loss. Our mission is to help people who have hearing loss and improve their lives. So we do this in a number of ways through research by providing advice to government on hearing health care. We develop our own technologies and we help other companies develop solutions for people with hearing loss. Innovation is a big part of what we do. We apply innovation methodologies, lean-started principles, design thinking, agile, and all of that. And but we really, certainly in Australia, want to be the focal point for everyone who wants to help people with hearing loss, and I think we also do that for people worldwide as well. Justin, let's hear about you and New Hero. Yeah, thanks, Brent. And thanks for thanks for having me on soundbites. It's a pleasure to be here. It's a pleasure, obviously, to talk about not just us, but our association with now. And New Hero, I think was a good introduction. We're here to, I guess, create a new category of hearing. We've been driving that for about six years. And for us, it's, and I'm wearing them today, is our, probably our latest product, which is IQ Buds 2 Max. And this is a product that's been deemed to hearable and hearable in the category, and we'll talk about a little bit more about that today as to what that means to hearing health care. But yeah, we're very proud to be here and excited by what's happening in the hearing health care market and the hearing technology market. And yeah, I'm really excited about what we can talk about today. Well, and congratulations on winning or being awarded by Time Magazine, one of the top 100 inventions of the year. Really, one of many accomplishments that I know that your organization has accumulated over the past several years. Yeah, thanks, Brent. It was pretty significant recognition, actually, for a company out of Australia to be recognized as one of the 100 best innovations. But I think more importantly, it was recognition of this new categorization of hearing and that hearing is really now becoming a subset of the technology market. And I think that's exciting thing for us. It's hearing is not something that's out there and is an outlier to everything else now. Hearing is really firmly a part of the broader technology market. And to be able to be recognized that way, I think, is really exciting for us. So, you know, speaking of the hearing market, you know, how do you think about your market segment and who's an ideal customer for New Hero? That's a good question. I mean, when my co-founder and I, David Cunnington, had set about on this journey sort of six years ago, we always had this focus of trying to cater to a market that we saw was relatively under-serviced, which was that multi-moderate hearing challenge sort of market. Where people were traditionally not doing a lot about their hearing health. You know, we've all seen the statistics. The average age of hearing aid wearer is 72. The average age of, you know, we start to lose our hearing from age perspective is 35. So we set about what could we possibly do to try and cater to that market? And so the average age of our customers example now is between the 40 and 50 mark. And and that's in the sweet spot. So that's where we we targeted the products to be multifunctional, to be more accessible, more affordable. And I know we're going to talk a little bit more about that today as well. But to cater to that particular part of the market that wasn't necessarily being serviced by the traditional hearing market. So, you know, I think one of the things that to me seems unique about New Hira is you spend a lot of time thinking about people say with that mild hearing loss category. You actually worked with us a couple of years ago on testing a hearing, basically a hearing test on an app, which I think is now a part of the app that you get if you you get a new hear device. And what we found, we compared your app to a proper audiologically driven Houston Westlake audiogram and and found, you know, yours was as good as as a clinically driven audiogram at the four frequencies that we tested. Correlation coefficients of something like point nine eight. And I think you're the only sort of hearable, non hearing device that incorporates NL and L2 fitting prescription. So it seems like you're you're focused a little bit more on people who have emerging hearing loss than some of the other hearable companies that I see out there on the market. Is that a part of your driving your underlying philosophy or is that just one part of the market segment that you're looking to capture? Oh, no, that that's our philosophy. I mean, and and you can see just in a nutshell, identified our relationships and how important you hear his relationship who's with now and vice versa. It's been it's been critical to actually target this part of the market. So no, I mean, when we started this journey here, hearables weren't necessarily defined. I mean, it was a wearable market and hearing wasn't even a part of that market. So so no, the hearable market and identifying and targeting that that part of the market as a hearing hearable. I know it's a bit of a bit of a mouthful, but we've always been focused on solving that particular end of the market. But what we've learned over through products and through the developments as you just highlighted was that we needed to make things easier for the user. So we had to embed a lot of that technology. Now in L2 has been transformational for our product, that the hearing assessment, which we've had clinically validated again, incredibly important to the personalization aspect of hearing. So so for us, they were key elements that we needed to solve in order to to get the product out there and ultimately create a new category that would that would service this part of the market. And so, yeah, it's been incredible for us. So back to you. Is there is there potentially a NL3 on the horizon? So, you know, we've definitely talked about that. And I think there's an opportunity for an improved fitting prescription. It's just when I look at the effort that went into NL1 and NL2, it was quite significant. So it's a matter of us dedicating the resources, but I wouldn't be surprised if if that comes along. And, you know, maybe we would partner with you to help us develop it. Yeah, one thing that you just said makes me think people get confused. I talk a lot to ideologists about how hearables and OTC hearing aids and ideology fit hearing aids all fit together. Are they competing for the same customer? What are your thoughts on that? I definitely not. And there is a there is absolute place for audiology, hearing aids and the like. Or we're we're attempting to do is to, as I said, enter a part of the market and create more accessibility and affordability and multifunctionality in in products. And but I think that the hearing widget itself is only one aspect of actually tackling that market. So I know there's a lot of talk about OTC and ultimately where that goes. But but I can tell you now it's not just about the widget. So you can't put a hearing widget on a shelf on a peg in a store and expect that it's going to walk out the door because there's a whole and we've been in hearing retail now with some of the biggest retailers no demand for five plus years. So we've learned a lot about what it means to be in hearing retail. And I think that these are some of the things that have to be solved in the whole OTC story. So it's not just about the hearing widget. It's about how you go, how you reach that customer, because being quite frank about it, no one goes shopping for hearing. And that's something that you have to solve if you're going to put an OTC product into market. Yeah, you know, part of how I think about it is there's a, you know, we talk in Australia, there's 3.6 million people with hearing loss in the US, you know, 38 million, depending on the stats you use. But it vastly underserved market as suggested by some people. And I argue that it's not underserved that a large proportion of the market doesn't want and doesn't need a hearing aid and that different groups have different needs. And so we think about OTC or we think about your product. It's not either a hearing aid or, you know, a new hero or an OTC. There's different groups for each of those products. And I think from what I'm hearing, the very fact that you have a younger demographic getting your product immediately tells you that it's a different group of people with different needs. Now, part of what I argue is it's not just about price and accessibility. That is keeping people from getting hearing aids. And the converse of that is it's not just your lower price and your accessibility in retail stores that is sort of making you appealing to consumers. Do you buy that argument or do you think your price and and your placement in retail actually is a competitive advantage there? I think they are competitive advantages for our part of the market. And that's that's the important thing to highlight is that is our hearing buds are probably something you're going to have before you go to a hearing aid, right? So so we always envisage that. Yeah, we will get a younger audience and be more appealing to that younger audience. And quite frankly, we bought wireless to market before. But Apple have done such a fantastic job in normalizing having things in your ears. And I think that's that's the that's the transformational change that we've seen, particularly over the last couple of years, is that there is a normalization of having things in your ears now. And I can't underestimate the importance of that and and how that's leading to us being able to put some hearing functionality into the buds, because people are more accepting around the fact that I'm looking like everyone else. And so I think accessibility and affordability are two critical aspects. But I do agree with you. There are so many other things on so many different levels that are contributing to the drive and adoption of products in in the hearable and start spice. Yeah, and I think some of the problems that you're solving in terms of stigma, you know, I think your devices for certain people are a lot more appealing than hearing aids, regardless of whether you could afford both. You know, you're providing additional functionality that might be appealing and easier access, right? So for traditional hearing aid, the path to getting a hearing aid takes more effort. It's not that there aren't audiologists around. It's just it takes a lot more work and some people don't want to put put the effort into it. And so with your app, with your your sort of one size fits most solution, you know, it's it can be be quite appealing for people who don't want to again go through that effort or a traditional device. Yeah, agree. But again, we're a situational product, Brent. We're not designed to be worn all day. And and that's one of the biggest areas of differentiation we have between what we do and what a hearing aid does. So our belief is if people using our product will one day move into a hearing aid, absolutely, because they're going to need assistance in all situations at all times the day, but we're not that product. And I think that's one of the things that needs to be, I guess, highlighted today is that, you know, we're we're not competing with the hearing aid market. In fact, we're we're broadening the hearing market. So it's not about hearing aids, hearables or otherwise. It's about hearing in totality. And and that's an exciting thing. And, you know, we do a good job of actually, I guess, making sure people who do have a more profound level of hearing loss at the point of screening, we screen them out. And so because we know our product's not suitable for them. And so I think, yeah, that there should be and I hopefully is as we grow that there's more collaboration between hearables and hearing aids and it just becomes a lot of hearing, because quite frankly, we're hearing and hearing loss may be lost in what we now turn personalization. And that's where technology is driving the market to personalization. Yeah, I agree. And it's quite interesting that you screen people out if if they're hearing loss is too severe. So you must get a lot of data analytics on your customers through through your app and the cloud and so on. Are there is there anything surprising that you've found about your customer, whether it's where they use their devices, how often, how many of them actually have a hearing loss? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we've got customers of, you know, age from eight to eighty. So we're not necessarily, you know, but it's hard to cater to all all all markets. What we're trying to appeal to is that that middle market, as we suggested earlier, but the data is an incredible. I mean, this is our third generation of product and the millions of hours of data that we've got. And then we do collect anonymously. But that data, we able to see patterns. So we know, for example, someone that's 55 is using the speech processing twice as much as someone that's 45. We've known, for example, that home use, because we have a number of different profiles on the product. So home use, probably no surprise, but true COVID home use has gone up exponentially. Plain use has dropped. The restaurant has dropped. So getting that sort of valuable data is is is incredible in terms of defining what your product roadmap is as well. And that's allowing us to stay ahead of the game. And I think it's probably something that's quite unique to the hearing market is the fact that we've got such a broad range of data across so many ages about how people are ultimately using their product. Right. What's what's been the toughest technology challenge that you've faced as you've progressed through your different product lines? I don't think we could have picked a harder harder battle than hearing the wing on a technology front. I mean, as an old saying, hearing is hard, and that's why very few do it. And it's true. It's it's why we now got a collaboration with HP, because if you don't focus on it, you don't understand it. And you would know everyone's ears are different. So to try and develop a product that caters to a mass market that relies on deep levels of personalisation is incredibly difficult. So from a technology standpoint, it's it's it's meeting that. And, you know, it's it's if it's akin to, you know, designing a car. I'm not designing a car to just get us around a block, right? In a nice on a nice sunny day. We're designing this car to go cross country through rain, hail, sleep, you know. And that's the challenge is designing not just the hearing tech, but the product and, I guess, the market awareness that these sorts of products exist and are available to people. So technology is probably something we're comfortable with. It's more the challenge of awareness and and introducing this new category of smart hearing to to a broader marketplace. Well, I'm really glad you said how hard it is and the reasons why. And I want to ask you about Gila Packard in a second, if there's anything you can say. But it reminds me that about five years ago, I was invited to speak at the wearable International Wearable Technologies Conference in Munich. And I gave a talk on hearables. It was more than it was wearables, not hearables. But I basically said, you know, this is in when a lot of companies were emerging, Braggie was was a darling child. You had Doppler Labs coming out. We had a lot of these hearable companies emerging on Kickstarter and things like that. And I basically stood up and said five years from now, 99 percent of these companies are going to be gone because they're all focused on the easy bit, which is the signal processing. But the hard bit is what hearing aid companies don't talk about. And that's the decades of work to get low power electronics to sound, you know, have clean sound to be comfortable, have the battery last a long time, survive earwax, rain, hairspray, all this stuff, which that's the hard part. And I think the comfort, you know, comfort and occlusion, I think probably killed, you know, half the hearable companies out there. But, you know, you survived. And I and I really commend you on overcoming a lot of those challenges that others were not able to. Thanks. And yeah, it is nice to have survived. And but they're absolutely key features of delivering a product is comfort, occlusion, that they're all the things that we've experienced and and developed, I guess, counter strategies to over over time to try and solve those issues. I think, you know, it's always difficult. You're never going to, I think, satisfy everyone that there's always going to be some. But, you know, we have return rates in single digits. So from that perspective, I think we've at a third generation product, I think we're from a hearing category. I think that's a really, really good result and an ultimate measure of whether you're actually appealing to your audience. But yeah, it's nice to still be here. And I guess what we did well was pace ourselves at the rate of the wave. We always knew hearing wasn't going to change over a course of one or two years. This would take four or five years. I think you were you were on note there in in identifying that, you know, you've got to have some steely resolve and to actually, you know, push through what is now. You know, what I think will be an even more broader market. I think there's there's a lot of changes afoot, which is quite exciting. Yeah, I agree. Is there anything you can tell us about this partnership that you mentioned with Hewlett-Packard or is that confidential? Look, yeah, elements of it are. But I think, you know, the fact that a big 10 company has come all the way to Australia. I guess goes back to what we were talking about earlier, Brent, which was that hearing is hard and it is a specialization. It's not something you can turn on tomorrow. It does take collaborations like you hear it does with now. It does take a lot of other collaborations with chip supplies and the like as well. But it's just testament to the fact that what we're seeing is is a connection of the years to a lot of different things now. Hewlett-Packard will have have their own needs, which they'll enhance in due course. But I think the years are connected to, you know, and our need to be connected to different types of devices is fueling that collaboration and we're excited that our core technology, which is able to deliver levels of personalization, is driving some of those relationships. And yeah, it's exciting. But I think there'll be more news about that. Hasn't when HP released that over the coming months? Yeah, no, that's great to hear. I'm very excited to see what comes from that. And by the way, your mention of single digit return rates, I think would make a lot of companies out there quite jealous. Well, I think I think it comes down to the way we sell it. And that's why I come back to it's not just about the widget. It's about how you sell it as well. And our direct-to-consumer model screening out those that aren't suitable for the product. This we're hearing a company shouldn't be nervous about what we're doing. In fact, they should see that as potential referrals. So there's a lot of opportunity there for us to I think partner rather than part heads with the with the hearing aid market. That's for sure. Do you have many hearing health care professionals, including new here in their offerings in addition to hearing aids? Are you you purely a retail distribution channel? Yeah, pretty much retail. So through our own direct-to-consumer offerings, we talked about non-go shopping for hearings. So you actually have to bring people through a whole hearing health care journey at a much earlier age to introduce them, educate them, bring them through to a transaction. But what we've seen is a change in the way when we first came to market, you know, the Best Buys, you know, the Walgreens, the Brookstones, Harrods Virgin, everyone wanted hearing. And we thought, well, how good is this? You know, hearing health care is is going to penetrate the board of retail. But what we found is our growth was only coming through adding retailers. So we're getting the sell in, not the sell through. And that's where it does take some expertise. And, you know, we're cognizant of that. And that's where we had to pivot back to a direct-to-consumer model where we could educate them through a consultative sales process. And but having said that now, we've developed hybrid models with these retailers where we're able to target their membership and customer bases online and bring them through in a whole online. So with them utilizing our assets, bring them throughout a hearing health care journey, which is very difficult to do if you're relying on someone to walk into a store. Yeah. And, you know, I've I've talked a lot with people, audiologists, about whether something like New Hero could be a good solution for those clients who come in, have a hearing loss or mild hearing loss, but walk out without a hearing aid for whatever reason. Either the hearing loss is too mild or they reject, you know, the typical hearing aid for stigma reasons or the costs or whatever. But, you know, I think so far I haven't seen hearables in general really having much of an impact in, you know, hearing audiology clinics. And I'm wondering if it's because the demographic that goes into the clinic in the first place is simply is a different kind of person than someone who would be, you know, find your product online or in a store more appealing? Yeah, I think so. And I think, again, a number of factors that they drive that as well. I think people doing it online and have the product delivered in the comfort of their own home, ultimately can can do it in private. And I still think there is some stigma to it. And just as an interesting aside there, so we did a pop up in a shopping center, right, where we offered to screen some people's hearing as a part of the process, people wouldn't do it. People people are really shy about their hearing and doing anything about it in a public space. So which is why I think the online aspect of it has worked as well, because it's allowed people the convenience to to do this online, but under the veil of some form of secrecy. So I hope that changes and I think it will over time as we get more normalized on wearing things on the year. But it's so as we've learned through time, it's just developing a hearing widget is one thing. Being able to get it into market to, you know, a market that's not really looking for it has had some challenges. Absolutely. And it reminds me that there have been a lot of companies in my career who have tried to develop hearing in companies and failed because they thought it was just about the product and it's not. You know, it's really about the channel. It's about the customer and addressing their needs in a differentiated way. I'm wondering, given what you said about people like to do it themselves and maybe do some of this in their own home, how do you view the upcoming OTC hearing aids in the US? Is that a threat to your business or do you see it as still different segments to your customer? Yeah, different segment. And for us, that's a that's a sell up into into a hearing aid. So it's something that's probably designed to be less situational or more or wear day all day, all day wear, sorry. So but again, something probably then, you know, so it's a broadening of the market. So hearing buds, OTC hearing aids, and then we'll broadly speaking, you know, the traditional hearing aid market. So yeah, we see those different, different, different category. It's it's one we're excited about. It's one that we're prepared for as much as we can be in not understanding the specifications that are available under OTC yet. But I think it's an exciting development. I think there's more hype around the category rather than thought on how it's delivered. Yeah. And yeah, I know there's been a lot of noise about it in the specifications of the product, but I think it'll take some time to develop as a category because I'm a firm believer that hearing aid, whether an OTC, and we prove it as a hearing bud, won't sell on a peg in a store. Yeah, there has to be some process behind it. So, you know, online, I think we've got some opportunity. But in store, yeah, it's going to be going to be interesting. I don't know where that goes. Do you have any thoughts on how that works? Well, I think there's going to be a lot of companies who are lined up to take advantage of the OTC regulation who are going to be in for a sore surprise when, you know, the presumed 80 percent of the market waiting for their product doesn't show up for the exact reasons that you said there. It's it's just putting a hearing aid on a shelf. Is it hardly going to induce anyone to pick it up at the end of the day? It's it's health care and most people want to see a health care professional and there are people who want to do it themselves. And then, you know, new here and other product categories will fit those. But I like your perspective on that OTC hearing aids is a different segment than than hearables, which is a different segment than traditional products, which is I'm assuming you'd say a different segment than ear buds that don't have speech enhancement or hearing compensation in there. So they're they're kind of segments within segments in the market. And that's how I started thinking about this. I published a paper earlier this year on how I see all these technologies fitting into the different segments. And and I really think that that's how when we think about the future, that's how everything is going to everyone's going to work together. They're just they're not going to steal products from each other. And what was if I think again, I think back to Doppler and Braggie and those those companies, if you read what they were saying, it was all about hearing aid companies are idiots. They don't know what they're doing. We're going to take all of their customers away from them, which is the exact wrong thing to way to think about it. And so yours may be the only company that actually said we're going after you know, people who aren't currently being served and you know, the hearing aids have their own own place in the market. Yeah, absolutely. Which is, you know, there's an element of craziness in attempting to pursue that as well, you know, trying to build a category. You're then building a product to sell into is is is not the easiest thing to do. But but I 100% agree with you. I mean, the hearing aid companies serve a very valuable purpose as do audiologists, but there is there is different ways. Patient-centered care, this ability to get into hearing, like I can self-assessing in any other form. I've got pain relief or I've got, you know, some form of other health issue. More often than not, I can I can conduct some patient-centered care. Like use my own effort to drive that first level. And hearing's never been really able to offer that. And that's where I see this opportunity through OTC, through hearables, through OTC and hearing aids, is that hearing just becomes a broader category. And if we get more people using products and servicing their hearing at an earlier age, it's actually going to sell more hearing aids. It's my belief. And I know you agree with that as well. Your study actually pointed to that, right? Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, if you look at what happened a year ago and the exuberance, you know, that was seen in the market with their stock, it just shows you that people know that there's there's an untapped need out there. You look at like companies like Lively that are coming up with this blended model of service delivery. There's there's a there's room for all of those different approaches. And by the way, you've got an aging population that's growing and growing. So it's it's just going to more and more people will be added to this this segment. So, you know, I think we hopefully we have some questions coming in. Shaggyn can tell us. But maybe one last question for you, for me, if you think about, you know, five years from now, 10 years from now, what does the world of hearing look like? Wow. My life has chopped up into about three monthly intervals at the moment. So to look five years out is a is a big 10 years out. I have no idea five years out. Look, I think from at least from our perspective, from a hearables perspective, there's more, there's more normality around wearing things on your ear. And I think we will work will all work in a hearing market, which is part of the technology market, which is delivering different levels of personalization through different devices, through different means, and in much the same way as we are today. So I don't I don't see the structures changing necessarily. I just see more people utilizing personalization as a feature into into into hearing. So hopefully, you know, what's hearing aids will always be there. We're not talking about the negative aspect. We're not talking about hearing loss. We're talking about hearing. And I think, you know, we do a job today. And this is one thing I didn't anticipate that we actually advertise ourselves now is not a hearing aid. And I think that's pretty significant. You know, we're we're we're not trying to be a hearing aid. Never have and we don't necessarily want to be regarded as a hearing aid because we're actually targeting an earlier audience. But I just think more broadly speaking, we'll all be here talking about hearing rather than different categories. Thank you so much for for that robust discussion. And knowing the two of you, you can go on for hours. We do want to address some of the questions. We did have quite a few questions. So first from Chris, what are your thoughts on hearables such as New Hearer in meeting the global demand for hearing rehabilitation in low and middle income countries where the demand for affordable quality hearing care solution is huge? And how do you how do you see New Hero's role in meeting that gap? Well, do you want to go first on that one? Yes, please. I look at that is a challenge, no, no doubt. The the devices today are still they're not the cheapest thing to produce and that they are a hearing device. So every device that comes off our production line actually actually has to be tuned individually. So as and when you can get into mass production, I think you can bring the cost of manufacture down and maybe and scale goes up. Then you can you can enter those particular parts of the market. So when we're selling, hopefully, millions of units rather than tens of thousands of units, then that's obviously going to bring the cost of manufacture down dramatically and and hopefully be able to see us enter some of those some of those markets. But Brent, I don't know what are your thoughts about how how we can drive into into the those sorts of countries? Yeah, so I agree with what you say in terms of the your cost of goods, getting that down to be successful in those other markets. But I guess not maybe naively, but I would I would think that the concept of different segments applies no matter what country you're in. There you have some people who really need professional hearing health care. Now, they may get a lower cost hearing aid. They may not get a hearing aid that has Bluetooth and, you know, balance sensors and all that, but they'll get a they'll get something that meets their needs. You're going to have other people in that market who don't need that and don't want it. And something like New Hero will be a lot more appealing, whether you can get to their cost or their cost point is is another issue. But then I think people innately sort of have the same needs and demands and they're going to have to be treated differently by different product segments like we are doing in countries like Australia and the US. Yeah, and just to finish off on that as well, particularly places like Africa, the emergence of the smart device, the phone and the like, the computer completely bypassed those countries that went straight to handhelds. And I think the interaction of of that device with the low cost hearing aid. Yeah, I think that's with the right technology could have some some pretty big impacts. Yeah. And so maybe one of the keys is distribution. How do you get hearing help in a country where there aren't many hearing care professionals and so utilizing smartphone and self fitting approaches is probably key there. Would agree. Yeah. Yeah. So can you tell us a bit about the take up of hearables in in the hearing services program in Australia? Yeah, look, that's an interesting one for for us because we're on the HSP. We're also on the NDIS because we we do have a lot of people, particularly younger that use it for treatment of background sound and promotion of speech that so for those that are on the autism spectrum and the like. So the HSP has been not the easiest thing for us to navigate as a hearables product. Again, I think and if I'm completely honest about this, that the HSP is is is largely run and governed by audiologists. And I think, you know, those people that go to the audiologist is more propensity for them to dispense a hearing aid rather than a hearable. So so from that perspective, I don't necessarily changing. It won't change overnight, but it will change. And, you know, our recent addition to NHS in the UK, both in the UK, Scotland, Northern Ireland, where they've created hearable categories as well. I think it's just it's just recognition that there's some slow change here and OTC and the like that there'll be some regulation change that will support the category over time, but it's going to take some time. So yeah, it hasn't hasn't been massive for us. And Brent, are you interested in your thoughts on perhaps why hearables haven't been being able to penetrate on those programs as well? You know, again, I kind of go back to my earlier comment. It might be a channel issue that the kind of people going into a clinic for HSP, maybe aren't aren't in the right mindset for what a typical here a customer. And to be honest, the channel is probably less motivated to, you know, fit new here as than they are traditional hearing aids. It's not what the clinicians are trained on like they are with traditional hearing aids and, you know, the financial motivations aren't there either, perhaps. Yeah, and that also addresses Andrew's question about how do you see the regulatory situation playing out for hearing aids and hearables around the world? Because they know that, you know, in US there are multiple pathways. So the classic OTC DeNoble plus the unregulated personal sound amplification products. And so they're interested in about what about the rest of the world? Is there a potential there? Brent, I've got my thoughts, but maybe you want to go first on that one. So I didn't quite follow the whole question, but I'll say that, you know, in the US with the regulations there as they exist today, if you don't market yourself as being for hearing a solution for hearing loss, if the intended use isn't to compensate specifically for hearing loss, then, then, you know, you're not, you're not governed by the FDA. Things like five, ten Ks are not, not relevant for you. And as you said earlier, Justin, you don't call yourself a hearing aid. And, you know, and but again, different, different technologies for different segments and and they'll create an OTC category which won't cover the hearables either, I don't think, but or or it might, I don't know. Maybe maybe you've thought about that because OTC regulation is going to be for mild to moderate hearing losses only. Yes, absolutely. And I think that's perfect for it. That's what it's designed to do. Anything more than that. I think you do need to see a specialist, which is which is your audiologist. So would you call yourself a hearing aid, though? From an OTC perspective, yeah, if we meet their spec, we we we would be classified then as as a hearing aid, whether we choose or not to call ourselves a hearing aid in that particular part of the market, but you could be a lot freer in talking about hearing loss per se. Right. And I guess that's a challenge. What you call yourself to me is well, it's not irrelevant because we are the thing you have before you go to a hearing aid, so the hearing bud is is highly relevant. But yeah, who who you serve is is is is more particular point. The lines have been blurred in in the US. Let's be frank about that through OTC and now the delay in OTC. The lines have been blurred somewhat, but we're very careful about what we say and do around being, you know, hearing challenged and being a hearing bud. And and and being there as a as a device that's that's specifically not a hearing aid, so but the US and perhaps Brent, you would like to talk about this as well. But the US seems to lead the way in terms of where regulation follows them for the rest of the world. Is that a fair fair assessment? The biggest market in the world. So typically as things go there, the rest of the world tends to follow for sure. Great. So we'll probably finish off on a few more questions before we wrap up. So question for for a new hero, Justin, are you undertaking research or evidence based studies to quantify the benefits of max in hearing health? Yes, we are. They're important. And as I said, we've we've done some of that with now who've been a good partner of ours, but we've also undertaken other independent university studies as well into into that and the data becomes a big part of that as well. So so yeah, we're all about being evidence based. And I think, you know, it's about having product in market as well and getting that that user feedback. I think that's a critical part, you know, with 50 plus thousand devices now being worn every day, you know, we we're getting the feedback on on on user acceptance and and that at the end of the day is is evidence based. Yeah, perfect. And also there's a question on do you see tea coil from Hearing Loss Association advocacy play a role in your product? Tea coil is an interesting one, Brent. Do we we're talking about this the other day? Perhaps not. Don't remember. But look, tea coil is about, yeah, we you know, you could walk into a shop and broadly speaking, tea coil. Why was tea call have to actually just present to those with a hearing aid with a hearing loss? I mean, at the end of the day, it can actually connect to a lot of different things. So, you know, there's this opportunity for tea called to actually present to to people with good hearing. You know, that technology and what it's ultimately delivering. Yeah, there's a there's a real opportunity. I think that goes beyond hearing loss. It talks to all things hearing and communication in in certain environments. I don't know what you think about tea coil and the opportunity where it goes. Well, you know, the I think for me, the question is, will blue to flow energy become ubiquitous enough in public places that it replaces tea coils? You know, it hasn't yet, but it is it is now a standard that many devices, not just hearing aids, will communicate with. And I think it's a it's a given that at some point, you know, that's going to happen. Yeah, so perhaps I'm guessing from your perspective, it's a question of, do you make the investment and also looking at your market segment? You know, is this is a need for your customers to have that solution? No, it's not. It's more broadly speaking about what what tea call does and what it ultimately delivers. And I do agree with you. It's low energy Bluetooth. And yes, we are making the investment in in that platform. But, you know, there's a lot of talk about low energy Bluetooth at the moment. But the fact of the matter is, you know, even if we put it in our device, there's nothing to connect to today anyway, that's going to create benefit for that. So, you know, so this this will morph over time. But I think it's exciting prospect over the next 12 to 18 months. That's for sure. Great. So we're almost out of time. But before we wrap up, I would like to put our guests on the spot and say a few final words to our audience here today, because we're all current and future creators and facilitators of those innovative hearing technology and delivering it to benefit our clients. So also bring back to Brent's presentation at the wearables technology conference where you talked about the convergence of hearables and hearing aids, OTC and all that. So what is the state right now and how do we best prep for it? Sorry, on the spot. How about all answers so we can leave the final word to Justin? So, you know, there is a lot of convergence going on. And, you know, where it's all leading, you know, I asked Justin about five years from now and when I think about the future, maybe more than five years, I think about the movie Her with Joaquin Phoenix, where everyone in the world is walking around with an earpiece all day long. It just it serves different needs for different market segments. For some people, it's just about hearing text messages and querying Google. For other people, it'll be speech enhancement as well and maybe some cognitive benefit and maybe some balance benefit. But, you know, it's a world where everyone is comfortable with an ear level device and we're not there yet with meeting that challenge. But in that world, then it's just that everyone's got something and it's just a matter of understanding the different unmet needs of the different markets to figure out how to design that product for them. Not everyone's going to wear the same thing. It's everyone has different needs, different solutions for different people. And that's for me, that's the future. And that's the mistake. A lot of these companies that no longer exist have made that they don't recognize that they really need to focus on these different unmet needs of market segments. Yeah, yeah, absolutely agree with Brent in that regard. And from our perspective, it's it's it's a market of convergence. And and that convergence, you know, from whether it's about convergence, about listening, it's about hearing, it's about communication, these convergences is all happening. But it's also about collaboration. So to sit here and think that you can actually deliver complete solutions end to end now from a hearing perspective as a singular business without actually having collaborations with with other parties, either that's through market or technology or otherwise, is is I think where where a lot of people go wrong. And, you know, our collaboration with now is is a significant one. It's delivered. We can focus on where what we're good at now can bring, you know, their expertise to the table. So sorts of collaborations. And even if I think about where HP bring, it's those sort of collaborations that I think will drive the hearing market as we move forward. And so, you know, we don't not smart asses that think we're going to sit here and change the world, do it all off our own back. The collaboration will be important part of of hearing and the creation of normalization in hearing over over the next few years. And so are we are we thinking of collaborating, collaborating more now when you here are? I'm not sure if it's a question that you want to answer, but. I'm sure we will. Absolutely. Great, thank you. Thank you so much. And looking forward to more results from you here and now and more collaboration opportunities. So on behalf of now soundbites producers team, I would like to thank you, Brent and Justin for our discussion today. And it's on it's an honor to have both of you on the panel. Thanks, Jan. Really terrific talking to you, Justin. Yeah, great, Brent, I've been quite enjoyable. Thank you very much. Take care. Thanks, everyone.