 Hey folks, it's Eric with Texas show. I I'm excited right now. I have on the line Guest his name is Michael hyzer. He's a scholar in the field of biblical studies in the ancient near East He has an MA in ancient history from the University of Pennsylvania an MA in Hebrew studies and a PhD in Hebrew Bible and Semitic languages He's got it all and he's got a new book out called the unseen realm Recovering the supernatural worldview of the Bible Michael hyzer welcome the program Thank you for having me Eric Well, it's wonderful to have you tell us about this book the unseen realm recovering the supernatural worldview of the Bible I love the idea Yeah, well, I'm arguing for some simple things in the book, but they're simple, but you know yet Kind of disturbing or profound is the word I like but the truth is that people get disturbed And that is that's their problem man. Yeah. Yeah, well, that's you know, that's kind of been my attitude towards the whole thing Yeah, I guess just to sort of simplify it you know Christians and you know people who have a high regard for the Bible in any context like to talk about Interpreting the Bible in context right, you know, that happens a lot and what they usually mean is a literary unit or genre or something like that But the most fundamental context is the one they omit the one they seemingly never think about and that is the ancient Near Eastern world view So my contention in the book is look The right context for interpreting the Bible for understanding its story. It's metanarrative It's not the Reformation. It's not evangelicalism. It's not Catholicism. It's not, you know modern Judaism The right context for interpreting the Bible is the context that produced the thing Which is really really old and really really foreign and really really strange to the modern year The people who wrote scripture and their original audience were predisposed to a supernaturalistic worldview that we no longer have even even confessing Christians, you know, we okay, there's God There's Trinity. There's the deity of Jesus. There's Satan, maybe There's angels and demons, maybe But that's pretty much where we draw the line and it's a it's a terribly overly simplistic view And even though Christians will tend to embrace for the most part those ideas There are many there are myriad strange passages in the Bible that I'm trying to argue are really important They have a role to play in the telling of the supernatural epic of scripture And they either get summarily ignored or we bring out the academic SWAT teams To try to rationalize them away. Well, the the irony I bumped into this I mean when I became a Christian seriously in 1988 I wanted whatever comes with the program You know like give me the whole thing pay one price and it all comes and it's all free as much I want everything and I was amazed when I then bumped into Christians who said, oh, I don't know about that miraculous stuff I don't know about this. I don't know but I thought what do you mean? You don't know and when I wrote my book about miracles I was astounded to bump into Christians who were uncomfortable with a lot of what I wrote about. I thought That's so bizarre. I mean you're supposed you supposed to understand this stuff or be open to it But they're very I think that really to sum it up But I want to get to the much more interesting stuff that you've written about in the book But to sum it up many Christians have adopted an enlightenment Rationalist view of the world. They they they have ironically reduced everything they've taken out of taking it out of this holistic realm and and brought it down into a bunch of theological tenets and That's about it and and they're really missing the the life the life has been beaten out of things and everything is a thin Breaded veal cutlet. Okay, so you know, I I agree You agree that it's a thin breaded veal cutlet. Yeah, the believing church is really bending under the weight of its own rationalism Yeah, there's not gonna scholars that that don't you know, they well, you know, Mike You can't say this you can't say that it's like, okay Well not what I what I need you to do for me is I need you to prove to me that the biblical writers and the Audience that they're writing to were products of the enlightenment. They were modern. I mean, it's it's even it's hilarious But let's let's let's get to the juicy stuff. You've got some amazing stuff in this book again The book is the unseen realm recovering the supernatural worldview of the Bible by Michael Heiser Michael you have Incredible things you I want to ask you this question to tee you up. How did the descendants of the Nephilim? Survive the flood tell us first of all who are the Nephilim for those who are just tuning in Yeah, the Nephilim are according to Genesis 6 1 through 4 passages like numbers 1332 and 33 They are the offspring of the sons of God. Okay, divine beings So there's two ways to read Genesis 6 that in my mind honor a supernaturalistic worldview One is the literal Perspective where you have divine beings assuming human flesh They cohabit with you know women and then their offspring are a little bit different. Okay, the Nephilim unusually tall for the for the context Of the day unusually tall. I mean it's look it's bizarre stuff This is the kind of stuff that when you read the Bible like what the heck is this this is That it's not just Nephilim they're described this way For instance in the in the conquest narratives in Deuteronomy 2 and 3 you've got a meme Zom Zumeen You know Rafa Yama on a team You got all these these terms and even even the term Amorite can occasionally be used as an Amos Chapter 2 verses 9 and 10 to describe the occupants of the land or at least a subset of them That's my view a subset of them as unusually tall And it's taller than the average, you know person we can we can get into how tall I think they were if we want to but the second way to look at this is that if you think back to the Abraham and Sarah Story, yeah when it is really started as a as a people There's some sort of supernatural intervention, you know God enables Sarah To have a child when she's barren and well past age We're not told what that something was so you could read Genesis 6 1 through 4 In that way that somehow you have rival gods and again a lot of the book is You know, I'm saying what when the Bible says that Yahweh the God of Israel is the God of gods It means exactly what it says there are other Elohim because Scripture says that Okay, but but lesser beings but hang on so when you say there are other Elohim there are other gods We translated the word gods. Yeah In the New Testament where in Jesus says, you know, have you not read that you are gods? I mean he uses he's quoting that but of course we have it in the Greek, but it's the same thing, right? He's saying that he's quoting Psalm 82 verse 6 and he's saying we are gods small g What what he's what does he mean exactly what he says? What is it? What is he saying? Well, how do you see okay in that scene in that scene? Jesus has just said in verse. This is John 10 30. I and the father are one Okay, and then the the Pharisees the religious leaders of the day get get torqued at him Which is understandable and so he defends himself by quoting at Psalm 82 verse 6 Which is really odd because it's he says doesn't it say in your own scripture, you know fellows that you know I said you are gods now Many scholars. I would say even most especially if you're New Testament Scholar would say well Jesus is is saying that hey all of us in the room here you Pharisees and everybody listening we're all gods so don't get mad at me for saying I'm the son of God and How does that defend his deity? He's saying quit picking on me. I'm just like you guys and you're just like me That's absurd Okay, what he's actually doing is he's he's taking Psalm 82 in context in Psalm 82 verse 1 here's the key verse It says Elohim that saw by a dot L a God it takes his stand in the divine counsel All right Elohim their familiar term for God the next half of the verse says In the midst of the gods in the midst of the Elohim the chair of Elohim you should put in the midst of the Elohim He the first God the capital G. God passes judgment. Oh, they're right there. You have plural Elohim you get down to verse 6 in the same Psalm and What do we see we see God the speaker of verse 1 saying to the group? I said you are Elohim you are gods all of you sons of the most high now Unless there's another most high running around in the Old Testament other than the Zenyatta way what we have here is Elohim and Sons of God being equated sons of God or Elohim. These are divine beings it creeps us out Because we are trained as Westerners, but wait a minute. I am but I'm confused. So we are Because of because of God we are gods, I mean is that roughly what I'm talking about theos is here Okay, but how is it that sons of God are Elohim? We were just explaining this difficult passage John 10 30 Which relates to the Psalms when when God says that the sons of God are that in other words We are the sons of God. We are Elohim somehow. We are gods. What is it talking about? All right, but again Jesus doesn't actually say that he addresses his audience and says you okay? Doesn't your doesn't the scripture say that you are gods now the rabbinic community Many modern scholars say that what Jesus is saying is hey you guys you're your gods, too Just like me I could we can all use the same terminology again That doesn't make any sense. How is that a defense of Jesus? Deity in the passage because that's what he's defending and it also doesn't make any sense of Psalm 82 You have a scene in the heavens case all 89 factors into this as well with a council the divine counsel is in the sky It's just a term for the heavenly host It's an academic term just for you know God among his hosts But he says to them you plural are all Elohim you are sons of the most high so when Jesus quotes this passage He's saying look Don't rag on me for calling myself the son of God and saying I and the father are one Because your own scripture teaches you that there are other non-human IE supernatural beings Called sons of God. He's what he's saying is I am more than a man and your own scripture Has this category and then he follows that statement that quotation of Psalm 82 verse 6 He follows it a few verses later by saying I am in the father and the father is in me Very obviously the rest of the people in the room can't claim that So this notion that Psalm 82 is about humans being called Elohim Okay, but then what what then what what is he referring to then what are sons of God and who are Elohim? Who are they? They are spiritual members of the heavenly host that we use terms like angel Which is problematic because there are lots of other terms angel is just a job description It doesn't tell you ontologically what a thing is aren't seraphim and cherubim and archangels more job descriptions Right. I'm an angel is you know a messenger. That's what the term means in both Hebrew and Greek Cherubim and seraphim are throne guardians in the ancient Near East These are the terms that would be used for them now the ontological term is in fact Elohim That's what all the members of the heavenly host start out. Let me explain this We're kind of creeped out by that because our Western minds when we see the letters g o and d or hear g o d our minds just Reflexively attach a specific set of unique attributes to that term. We think of Yahweh Right. We think of omniscience omnipotence omnipresence, you know all the traditional attributes, okay? But the biblical writer does not think of Elohim that way. How do we know? You know, should we just take Mike's word for it because he has a phd. No, please don't go Concord go look up all the places where Elohim occurs and here's what you'll find I've done the work for you The biblical writers use Elohim of half a dozen different entities now if Elohim meant a specific set of unique attributes They would never do that right because they do believe Yahweh is unique. I like to use the phrase Species unique. Well, we don't we don't the biblical I don't think we need to go further into this It that I finally understand it and I think this is extraordinary. I want to ask you another provocative question Because this is what your book is about this wonderful stuff Why was Eve not surprised when the serpent spoke to her? Yeah, this goes back into what Eden really was in the ancient Israel like mine There's a reason for instance that Eden is described as a lush garden That's the that's the description. We typically think of Genesis 3 But it's also described as a cosmic mountain in Ezekiel 28. Why garden? Why mountain and Ezekiel also calls it a guard? Why do you have these two things because in the ancient Mary's in mind? This is where God's dwell this this was you know sacred, you know special Placed the gods of course dwell in the best places they dwell in paradise not like us that are subsisting just to get by day by day They dwell in mountains because they're remote. They're transcendent. That's different that that's away from humans those icky humans Okay, this is the concept that the dwelling place of God was a unique special place described as a lush garden or mountains It's just stock vocabulary right from the ancient world and so because that's God's home He what where he is his entourage is his heavenly host is his his panoply of supernatural servants one of those is The you know the job description throne guardian Seraphine were serpentine in appearance. Okay, it comes from the Egyptian terms sir off Wait, I'm sorry. Who was serpentine in appearance? The the seraphine and Isaiah 6 they're they're serpentine in appearance and so when you get to Genesis 3 It's not surprised It's not a surprise to Eve because she's living in Eve in in God's house so to speak There because that's where God created them to be and that's where God wants humans to be She has seen These throne guardians these beings that sort of look like you know serpentine You know parents or whatever she has seen them come and go before because she dwells in the presence of God as well Michael some of this stuff is wild that you're saying and of course It's right there in the bible. And so it shouldn't be wild or surprising what you said about the seraphine We think of them as angels, but you said these are throne guardians the seraphine that we hear about all the time You said that they Are described as having something of a serpentine Appearance I don't ever remember reading that and what can that mean when we think of an angel We don't think of something with a serpentine appearance Seraphine comes from Hebrew Saraph, which is one of the nouns for serpents And in Isaiah 6 again, I'm getting back to the Genesis 3 thing Why a serpent again in the short answer is because that's what throne guardians That's one of the ways you would describe a divine throne guardian and eve has seen these guys before That's why she's not surprised. This isn't her first time seeing one because she lives there with God Now you know back to Isaiah 6 The vocabulary Isaiah uses that he chooses seraphine not only in Hebrew can mean serpent seraph But it comes from an egyptian term Seraph Which is sort of this cobra-like appearance. This is one of the ways that egyptians in their culture Described the guardians Of pharaoh, you know the again these the pharaoh was viewed as a god on earth And so in the iconography there will be instances where His throne guardians. He's guarded by supernatural beings, you know, and this is the way they're portrayed So it's thought vocabulary what we need to do Is we need to think of eden as god's house or his temple the place where he is And he's there with his entourage part of which Are these throne guardians and this again according to the vocabulary of genesis 3 the term there is nachosh Which means again snake. That's the most obvious way to to translate it But interestingly enough, there are two other ways you could translate it without you know geeking out on the hebra grammar here Ha nakosh Definite article plus nouns serpents. That's easy If however nakosh is is coming from a verb it means the one who Dispenses divine knowledge and the serpent in the story certainly does that you could also translate it as the shining one If we take it as an adjective I personally think that all of those things are going on. We have a luminous being This is the stock way that the divine being is described throughout the bible He's certainly dispensing divine knowledge And if we're you know picking up on the etymology, you know, or at least the iconography that some of the familiar features Of how divine throne guardians were described elsewhere in the bible Then that would explain the appearance Of a snake. I mean ancient people weren't stupid. They know that snakes don't talk You know, you can go to egyptian literature and when animals talk people just know That what we have here isn't just a member of the animal kingdom This is a god either come in disguise or a god that's obscured is is apparent There's something supernatural going on here And so in the book I talk about we need to get away from this notion this overly literalistic notion That we have a member of the animal kingdom here and it once had legs and god curses it and its legs go away You know, that isn't the point the point is that we have a throne guardian someone close to god's presence That doesn't like humans Because humans are created as god's imagers just like they were has anyone else and they don't like that Has anyone else ever read this this way because this seems so new to me what you're saying Yeah in the book the dirty little secret about unseen realm is that nothing in the book is unique to mike Right. Okay. I am depending entirely on mountains of peer reviewed literature The the best academic treatment on this would be van dyke's book on Ezekiel's prophecy against tire again. It's a nuts and bolts scholarly work who can forget van dyke's book I okay now let let me ask you there's another thing. We've just got a few moments here You you um, you answer the question. Who are the glorious ones that even angels dare not Rebuke, uh, where's that from in the scripture? Yeah, that that's going to be a passage in you have you actually have two different passages that that are important for getting into this You have one in jude and then you have one in second peter So in jude the jude's talking about false teachers and whatnot And he compares You know, he uses this language of the glorious ones and the archangels and whatnot basically a higher authority So if you compare second peter two And jude jude's only one chapter But if you look at the treatment of false teachers there You have this link between archangel terminology michael Is the example in jude and the quote celestial ones the glorious ones. So what these passages show us is that There's there's a hierarchical differentiation in the unseen realm that we sort of forget about and don't Uh, really understand. I personally think celestial ones does refer Uh to a if you're getting into attributes something more powerful than a mere angel So either in terms of status would the term elohim be fit there? Another's what are they described as elohim? Yeah, I think elohim is is sort of a neutral term what elohim The good synonym would be spirit being would quote in hebu Okay, and you would use the word elohim if you were a biblical writer and they do this a half dozen different entities You would use that word to tell the reader Where that thing belongs so in other words, you're a resident an inhabitant of the spiritual world, right? Now you can go on and describe hierarchy of elohim You can describe yawai as unique from all the other elohim We've basically Biblical writer's theology was this yawai the god of israel is one of the elohim But no other elohim is him period exclamation point Right. He is the only one that ever gets described as omniscient omnipotent the sovereign the creator all these things are well, I mean he he of course I it is odd in a sense because he is You know, you can't compare the creator of the universe and the creator of all of these creatures Yeah, he made that with the creatures, you know, uh, so so god is apart from creation In a way that they're not this is why interestingly enough there are passages that describe yawai as hot elohim the Elohim yeah, he's the dude. He is unique It strikes me when we're talking about this unseen realm all of these fascinating spirit beings um It reminds me of I guess I should say the only author Uh, who I think has done this justice is c.s. Lewis in his in his space trilogy in particular He seems to understand that there are these orders of spiritual beings that there are Uh, spirits that have given geographic been given geographical assignments that there's I mean, what does he call them l dills? But it's so fascinating that that he gets that and it's a really full-throated view of things Very few people seem to to go there Yeah, I I think Lewis and Tolkien. Let's just bring him in here Because neither of them were semitists. Okay, but they were both Experts in comparative mythology. Okay, and again, I'm not saying that the old testament or the bible is is mythical like fairytale kind of stuff We have to realize that when we talk about myth in this sense Uh, to to steal Tolkien and a little bit of Lewis here. This is the myth. It's true Yeah, um, you know, we we've got that going on But since they were so tuned in To these sorts of motifs I think it alerted them and made them better readers of the bible more perceptive readers And then that comes out in in what they write in in various things, especially fiction Um, but I think, you know, for the sake of your audience, we need to I need to make you Sort of a clarifying point here Unseen realm is not just a book about angels And other spirit beings Elohim and all that stuff. That's an integral part. What I'm trying to do in the book Is I'm trying to relate how God's relationship to his heavenly host in all sorts of passages that we just gloss over or deliberately deny How that serves as a template for how God looks at us Our status our participation with him here in this world and our destiny The the the the unseen realm essentially informs our reading Of the whole epic story of the bible from Genesis to revelation said how God is at work To restore his family. God wanted a blended family. He wanted a human family with his divine family He wanted humans fit for dwelling in the divine presence And when that's lost God doesn't switch to plan b. He doesn't wipe the pieces off the board and go home, you know He he doesn't do that He stays committed to the plan And we learn about what he wants to do how he views us And what his purposes are and what our purposes are By analogy to a lot of this supernatural stuff that is sort of like a computer program running in the background of scripture It's odd to us Because we don't come from that world If you had I like to use this illustration, we don't we all know what home bible studies are You know, we've all been in these things. You're sitting around in a circle. You're talking about a verse and you go around the room But hey, what does this mean to you? If you had an ancient israelite in the room in your small group bible study when you got to that guy His answer to what this passage means is probably going to freak you out It's going to be something you have never heard before And you know what you need to pay attention to because he comes from that time in place I we're going to have to leave it there just wonderful michael hyzer congratulations on the book and thank you for being my guest