 So Jessica, warm welcome. Thank you so much for joining us. I know you from the Deep Adaptation Forum where you have been an active member of the community volunteering and supporting the building of the community. And I do know a little bit more about your life outside of this community and particularly around the fact that Deep Adaptation has had a big impact on the choices you make about how you live. And I wonder just as we start, would you say a little bit more about yourself by way of introduction so that people here can can get to know you a bit more and have a bit more of an understanding about your journey to Deep Adaptation. Sure. And thank you, Katie, for the invitation. It's really special to be part of the Q&A series. Thank you, Stuart. And also thank you for people who are tuning in from different parts of the world, especially my mother-in-law and her friend Morgana from Muskoka in Ontario. Yes, it's where to begin. I don't want to talk too much. I have a little video to show to give people sort of a concept and idea of where I am based, which is in the eastern Caribbean in Dominica. It's a small island not to be confused with the Dominican Republic, which is the Spanish speaking. We are much further south of that. And I'm actually at my friend's farm this morning because we were doing some tree trimming at our place and a branch fell on the internet line. So I don't have internet currently, but Karen has a lovely organic farm and she's a neighbor of ours. And I have been for the last about two years, two and a half years involved in the forum. I kind of discovered it during lockdown. We have a property in the mountains here at 1500 feet, the edge of a rainforest. And we have a retreat center where we invite people in to have group experiences, predominantly transformational experiences, students, artists, plant medicine, local groups as well. And it's something that has evolved over time. As you can tell by my accent, I'm Canadian as well, Dominican Canadian. So I spent my first part of my life growing up in Canada and studying at University of Toronto. And then with my partner Tim, we discovered that we didn't want to be in the north, but we realized that we wanted to live a really creative off the beaten path life. So we came here to Dominica, which happens to be my ancestral home as well. And my father's side are Dominican. So I'm a hyphenated individual and having spent half my life in the industrial north and now half my life in the subsistence and agrarian south. I have a kind of an interesting understanding of the predicament we face and how possible ways to adapt. First of all, before I go into that, I'd like to show a quick one minute video. My favorite thing about Happy Cottage is probably just the whole purpose of it and all the motives behind it. Tim and just really just built a place where you can learn to connect with nature and appreciate the island. And I'm so happy to have had my experience here and be able to bring all this stuff home. At Dominica, it's just incredible. Yoga should be in nature. It's a good balance. The place is fantastic. The water of the river. It's wonderful. It's a comfortable tent. It's really just a transformative experience where you are just one with nature. Really in the middle of the nature, we have the waterfalls very close. We can hear the water falling when sleeping, when resting, when walking. It's amazing. The chef know how to make the food really, really good. It's the perfect environment to host any kind of group, really. I love the tent. Yeah, I love the tent, but it's really luxurious. I think it's a perfect place for a retreat. Whether it's for a yoga retreat, an artist retreat, plant medicine, meditation, mindfulness, wonderful host, a really special energy. It's been a labor of love over the past almost 30 years that I've been based here with my partner and our daughter. And it's been a real, oh, we just lost my mother. It's been a real journey. And I didn't expect actually any of this. It just sort of all has been an unfolding journey. And before finding the property and building the retreat center, we had a production company. We still do, Link International Productions. And we've been field producers in the Caribbean and Latin America. This was before YouTube. So for internationally syndicated shows like media television, fashion television, sex TV, even, and basically bringing stories from the region to international audiences. And that's a big passion of ours as well. We also had worked in development education, working with young people on creating student exchanges between India and Canada and the Caribbean. And so really looking at issues that affect people sort of on the edge of the empires, very interested in life in the Caribbean and Latin America and how we can have sort of a conversation with the Global North and bringing those issues to light. Thanks, Jessica. Incredibly rich. And you're going to be hosting a deep adaptation, deep live gathering later this year as well, aren't you? Yes, that's right. So we're really excited to be doing a deep live gathering here in October when the international gatherings are happening and working with Dorian on that content. And something that we do is monthly, we have monthly gatherings. I'm very big on intergenerational gatherings. And so we talk about these issues once a month on our porch. It's quite open as well as doing more formal group things. Yeah, thank you. So I'm going to make sure that the link to deep live gatherings is included in the show notes on YouTube for this video, because they are happening all over the world. Yeah, people being able to make connections and meet with people in real life. So yeah, very exciting. I'm going to ask you more about the film production and particularly your Love in Action series, the current one you're working on. I'll ask that a little bit. I know that, yeah, I think we've been involved in some of the working in the deep adaptation forum around trying to shift the narrative around collapse being, you know, this very white westernized framing of it's a bad thing that's going to happen and it's going to happen to us and it's a, you know, it's a distinct event. And yeah, the importance of including the reality of people who have lived through kinds of collapses. And so, yeah, I'm really, really grateful to have the opportunity to talk to you about your experience of Hurricane Maria when it hit Dominica in, I think about five years ago. I'm happy to share something about that experience and afterwards as well what you experienced and what you witnessed. Sure. I think certainly people in the north are getting more of an understanding of the climate breakdown. But we in the global south have been experiencing this for decades and stronger and more devastating storms, especially in the hurricane belt where we are are part of life and we prepare every year for hurricane season. And in 2017, we had a category five, which is the highest strongest storms to be recorded on the planet. And it actually went right through Dominica. Most people heard about Hurricane Maria in Puerto Rico, but it actually hit Dominica first. And it just absolutely devastated the island. Most buildings were flattened or lost their roofs. All the infrastructure was destroyed. The agriculture what you see behind me would have just been sticks. Absolutely no green. There was, you know, it was just it was it was my understanding of collapse is my first experience of complete and utter devastation and it. I mean, talking now I can speak more abstractly about it. But it was it was probably the most challenging thing that I've ever lived through the most heart wrenching disorienting experience, not just the storm itself which killed over 60 people. But the aftermath, which went on for not days or weeks, but months, there was no power on the island for almost 10 months. There were no roads bridges were out. And it really forced everybody to go back into sort of survival mode and what are what are essential. What is essential in this in this time, and everything else is just trivial. Because when you go through something like that, your whole world is was reoriented. And you really get to what's important. And it's interesting because at that point I had the choice to leave, you know, I could I could have fled and gone back to Canada and I family there and I would have, you know, been safe and not have to worry about it. But I chose to stay. We chose to stay and rebuild, not just because it was my home for the last 25 years, but because of what I saw in terms of the community coming together and supporting one another. I mean the morning after this unbelievable storm, women came out of their houses and we're washing clothes and we're doing their laundry. People were going picking up food that had fallen and sharing it. Nobody was running around screaming and panicking. Nobody was sitting around, you know, waiting for someone to save us. It was just people pick themselves up. And we all talked and sat and were together and started, you know, the process of rebuilding and recovering. And this is something that I think is quite not unique in the world because I think most of the world who's not part of the industrial North kind of expects these disasters has lived through many expects that we have to do a lot of community self care. And we have these informal networks where we're just very used to doing things for ourselves and coming together as a community. So, you know, for instance, we have most people in our community have skills, basic skills like carpentry, stone masonry, electrical, plumbing skills, sewing. And so we dug ourselves out. We got our roads cleared. We got our water system back. People were going around gathering galvanized and putting putting roofs back on long before we had any formal support coming into the village long before we even had rations. And what you saw was over time, people just started losing weight. It was interesting. You know, you could just we all lost about 20 pounds over the first months. But we all survived, you know, we all figured out how to come together and survive. As I'm listening to you describe your experience. I'm thinking about the fact that. Yeah, it's very different. I imagine imagine it's very different to how the communities or societies that I'm part of in more than Europe might respond. But I'm also having a kind of a moose smile because, yeah, in all of the context in which I've heard mutual aid discussed. It's always got a capital M and a capital A, you know, it's understood as a project which is implemented for building community. Yeah, which it sounds like this. Yeah, this is something which exists and doesn't need to be capitalized in the context that you're talking about. Yes, well, Dominica has a long tradition. We call it could man. Could man is the cradle word for lend a hand and cradle is our local language. It's a mix between French, the colonizers language and African grammatical structure. And could man has been part of our culture for hundreds of years. And that is a community self help where we all are part of community and it happens in many, many places around the world where there isn't a lot of money. You know, there isn't a big market that sort of mediates relationships and commerce between people. So when there isn't a lot of money and everyone is really kind of in the same position, we have to help each other. We need each other. And so there is this tradition and it's how my ancestors survived, you know, as slaves and as maroons. You had to be in each other's lives in an intimate way and sharing your skills and knowledge so informally. So nobody's keeping track. You know, nobody's remembered Katie. We were talking about time banks. So there's no sort of, oh, well, you did this for me on Tuesday. So I'm going to do this many hours for you on Friday. No, it's just, you know, your neighbor shows up with a goat because you were helping, you know, clear his area for farming. And it's just it's an informal way of being together and living and exchanging skills and knowledge and services. And it's really the glue that keeps the community together. It's a social glue. And I think that we've really lost that in industrial complex societies because you don't have to rely on your neighbors. You have Walmart down the street, you know, you've got a YMCA where you can go you've got a movie theater, you don't. So you don't have to and that the markets has really destroyed that natural propensity for people to gather and to be in community with each other, I think. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then, yeah, an industrial consumer society encourages champions, hyper individualism and independence. And the idea of reaching out to to help of being indebted to somebody is almost associated almost similar to being indebted financially, isn't it? There's this this shame around it. Yeah, I was speaking with Eric the other day and we were talking about mutual aid. And there was a kind of a truism that was going around during COVID I heard it was, we're all in the same boat. You know, there was we're all in the same boat so we're all going to pull together and we're all going to do what's best for everybody. And I heard a quote from Meg Wheatley who said, Well, we're all in the same storm, you know, we're all in the same crisis, but we're in very different boats. You know, some of us are in mega yachts. Some of us are in little dinghies. Some of us don't even have a boat. And some of us are in the water, and we can't swim. And so there's no concept of really truly being all in this together. And I think with mutual aid and with building community, you really have to have a sense of that that you really do need each other. And so that there is this is what emerges from that understanding and awareness is ethical behavior. So you naturally want to protect your neighbor and you naturally want to help out, and you naturally want to serve. And I think the service part, it might be what's what's kind of missing from from places where they're struggling to have healthy communities. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like a connection between what you said and your work in documentary making and the theme around I can, I can hear very, very strongly, the, the social justice, the fairness aspect of, of what you're saying and how you're saying it. And yeah, I'm guessing that that was part of what led you into the kind of work that you that you do with your partner Tim, is that right? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Really interested in giving voice and amplifying the ideas and experiences of people who are, you know, outside of areas where it's easy to do things and it's, it's. So, I want to, before I get into that, I think I'll to get an idea of the show what we're doing. I'll show this very short clip. Let me just see if I can find it. I have to close this down. So we started my, my feeling was that I wanted to open up the conversation to people in different parts of the world that were really revolutionaries and I use the term revolutionary in a sense that they understand the prices this incredible predicament knowing what we're losing but are acting anyway and are acting on their love and their compassion to try and save what's left of the natural world to try to transform our communities into into something that's more fair and just and doing amazing things collectively around the world. So I'm just going to play this very short trailer. Welcome to Love in Action at Capy Cottage in Dominica in the Eastern Caribbean. And today we have the enormous privilege of being able to have a chat with Skeena Rathour, who is a co-finder of Extinction Rebellion, the ecological and climate justice movement. Jem in his magnificence kind of hijacked that that conference with his deep adaptation presentation and Gail Bradwick was a dear friend of mine. So when I got home from the conference, utterly shaken and stirred and devastated, devastated by the science that Jem revealed. And primarily because as a mother, what he was saying was that my children would probably really unlikely to experience a full adulthood. And I just decided that I wanted to stand in it too and for restoration, transformative reparations, transformative adaptations and deep adaptations repair, you know, re-weaving the human family for the protection of life and earth repairs. That's the being the changework now. Today we have the amazing privilege to speak with rainbow eyes of the Danak Dua Awitlala Nation of the Night Inlet on Vancouver Island in British Columbia, Canada. So by the second arrest, we know we can resist, like not like fight, but nobody walks willingly with the RCMP. You have to work. You are putting us in jail. You're making us criminals. So and they would be in hard blocks for maybe three days with police all around. So ceremony was introduced by the elders for healing to help heal each other. So Laura Schmidt, who is the founder, one of the founders of the Good Grief Network. I think part of the heart centered revolution or love and action is really about appealing to the nature of humanity and never losing hope in that ability to connect and that ability to be inspired and pursue meaning and joy. I think that's the real crux. Okay, so that was just a taste of a few of the stories that we've developed and more to come. But just to give it gives you a sense of, yeah, the idea that we can be inspired by these kinds of collective actions. And there's a lot going on around the world. And, you know, Katie and I were talking earlier and, you know, deep adaptation gets labeled a lot as being doomers and doomers. And, oh, if we know the truth, if we know too much, we just won't act. We'll put our heads in the sand. And I think it's the opposite. I think people who really have that sense of the magnitude and the depth and the magnitude of the loss that's happening and it's happened. Then there is more motivation to, to try and save what's left and to try to work with the best of humanity, you know, to transform the system to transform ourselves and to start to create a new world on the other side. Yeah, really powerful. I get a really strong sense of that it takes so much courage to step out of business as usual, but in, you know, in such a strong powerful way. And that looking, you know, at being able to face into the truth and doing it with other people can be a massive motivator for that courage. And rainbow eyes and you saw the forest defender she was actually just named and accepted the role of deputy leader of the Green Party of Canada. And that was after the week that we did that piece with her and she decolonized the name as well for deputy leader so she it's going to be interesting journey for her now from the outside to come into a political party and see what she can do internally to start to shift things. Yeah, thank you Jessica, I'm going to, I'm going to ask you one more question myself. And then we're going to open up to questions to the people who are here so I just want to, to remind people here if you would like to ask or send a question for Jessica you don't have to ask it yourself. Please post them to Stuart now on using the chat box. So my last question is this so you are deeply immersed in. Yeah, in deep adaptation like in your, it sounds like there's not that much of a, it's not a work thing this is part of your life, you know, dedicating yourself in, in work and in your community to extending the glides softening the crash whatever that means in your context. I want to know how you stay sane. I want to know about your emotional resilience what keeps you grounded what keeps you your nervous system regulated. Well the first thing is all this keeps me regulated being living immersed in nature. I knew I wanted to live somewhere beautiful and that's absolutely I can't understate that how the natural environment helps to regulate me and keep me connected and then I have a morning yoga practice yoga and meditation that I do every morning very, very key to to starting the day off right and to calming all the nervous system and all the wonderful benefits of yoga and meditation and then community surrounding myself with good people being involved. I think that's a huge medicine, you know, to to continually to be involved. I'm involved with the farmers group here of Village Council and working with young people. And there's just so much to do to connect and every time I, you know, step off my property and into the village. There's just this, you know, I learned something new I just the smiles that are there sharing smiles sharing ideas and and I have an amazing family as well and I have amazing family support after the hurricane from my mother in law Sandy and my parents and we're just incredibly supportive because they also believe in in what we're doing and why we're here. And I think all of that. It's kind of forms this this container this basket these these arms around us and we're able to continue. I love that that image there. The holding the basket. Yeah, the container and I'm more and more I was thinking earlier when you were talking about the your experience during the hurricane about the connection between what we experience as seemingly an individual nervous system and how it's not it's it's connected through, you know, it's contingent upon community and belonging which makes it immediately a collective thing it makes resilience kind of shared experience. Yeah, absolutely we really regulate each other's nervous systems, you know, if somebody is you really really feel the energy of other people. And if people are calm and are taking time and slowing down before they make decisions, then it affects you as well, you're able to take that time and to slow down, but if people are panicky and nervous and angry that's very contagious as well. So, we're very fortunate that people are generally, I think it's also living close to the land, you feel very grounded your different rhythm when you're surrounded by by green and when you're working in the soil and so I think that's all part of it. Thank you. The first question is from Stuart. Thanks, Jessica. I've heard that our responses species to collapse will be dictated by the speed of said collapse, a rapid collapses historically for people together. And with you after the storm, whereas so one will most likely pick one against the other. And I know this latter scenario is a big concern amongst people collapse where in the main group. So I wonder what your experiences around this idea. Sure. Yeah, a couple thoughts on that I think collapse or, you know, simplification disintegration of systems I think happens in waves. I don't I think you know collapse is already in motion different parts of the world. It's just unevenly distributed. So I don't see it sort of a one time one day you wake up and the entire world is collapsed. I think, I think it's going to be kind of these waves where one area is going to experience a disaster and we'll be able to rebuild and then the next time we might not be able to rebuild as far, you know, and the things will be simplified and we'll have to live differently. And I think that there was one quote that that comes to mind. I think complexity is not your friend. So I think if you're in a very complex place in a city. I think it's it's going to be more of a shock for people because as things degrade, you know, system supply chains degrade underneath you because you're very high up on this complexity ladder. It will be a little bit harder to manage. You know, so I think it's, I don't I don't see a Mad Max scenario though I really I think that's the Hollywood scenario. I think people genuinely are good and want to help each other and want to help one another I think they'll always be the preppers you know out on the fringes have their bunkers. But I think generally the best parts of humanity come out in a disaster and even in a place where there's, you know, thousands of people living together I think you have these. We saw that with Hurricane Sandy New York, you know, you have these mutual aid groups springing up and you have neighborhoods coming together to deliver services and things. But I think it won't, you know, it'll be very uneven and it'll be kind of in waves and people will have to adapt to kind of the new reality as things move along. Thank you. Give me some comfort. I have a question from Kat. She's asked me to, to read it out. Kat says, she'd like to hear about your plans. What's, so what's next for you personally but also. Yeah, collectively, Kat says that you have a unique perspective and that she would love to hear what you are sensing. Well, in the near term, I'm sensing I would love to take some time to travel again, if I can travel. My daughter is just graduated high school that's taking a life year. So I'm really focused on what we can do as a family while she's around before she goes off to university. So really less structure, I think I read something around that there's this great resignation and that a lot of boomers are retiring early and taking time off and just, you know, it's almost like a sabbatical. So I feel like I'd like to take, I've been kind of in the trenches focused on, you know, all these different projects. I kind of would like to take some time and space to just get more expansive and connect with friends around the world. And then, and then it's not so clear, you know, I have some, we have some plans for our property that we'd like to look at getting a lot more local. We, we've been hosting people from different parts of the world for the last few years. But I know what's coming in the in the future is going to be a much more local way of living. And so I want to be able to create more opportunities for young people and programs at the local level. So those are a couple things but you know it's it's all everything emerges over time because it's such a, it's such a strange time we just have no idea what's going to happen the whole world could shut down again for the next, the next thing so hard to know. Thank you. And then, Eric, would you like to ask your question. Sure, I would. I actually had submitted two of them and I don't know if you have one in mind or the other. But I'll ask the first one. You choose. Okay. You mentioned plant medicine that you do at your cottage. And I guess I'm curious what exactly you mean by that. We have different plants. We have a lot of plants. One of them is that we have done ceremonies work with ayahuasca. I don't know if you're familiar with ayahuasca and various plants. But it's, it's kind of on request when people are interested in things and I think it's it's amazing. There's so much potential and so much healing potential from plants. And there are in the process of being, you know, decriminalized in many parts of the world these psychedelic plants because of the benefits that they can give so I don't want to take up too much time discussing it. That's more of a question for my partner, Tim, but, but yeah, we can talk about that Eric, if you're ready to come down and it's, yeah, there's just so much potential, I think in helping people reconnect with themselves and with your thoughts. Another question from Kat, I think, yeah, you're here now so you can, you can unmute me if I can speak directly to Jessica. Thank you. I notice I'm feeling very greedy and taking advantage of there being fewer faces on the screen so please forgive me or thank you for your indulgence might be a nice way of saying it. Another curiosity. I've been so lucky to spend time with you on screen over the last two and a half years, and I have an overwhelming sense of deep generosity from you. And in all things, and it's noticeable for me who spent most of my life in that very white very Western the House of Modernity if you like. There as Katie said we're trained and indoctrinated into this idea of the selfish self, you know it's all about me it's all about my independence. But I just wanted to invite and I know it's difficult I just wanted to invite some reflections from you around the idea of generosity. And I think for in the West there's often this sense of I can't give it a I can't give away because I need it. And I sense that your perspectives on generosity are perhaps quite different. And I just wanted to invite a reflection from you please. Thanks for that cat. And I've enjoyed spending time with you as well, and getting to know you. Yeah, I've. I like the phrase generosity is generative, you know generosity brings more generosity back to you, you know, and a lot of the time we talk about the energy that you put out in the world, you know comes back to you in different forms, but it's that same energy. And if it's a negative energy and if it's a tight and scared and scarcity energy, then that's really what kind of shows up for you so, and I do sense that that's been my kind of experience as the more that I step out of myself and out of my own sort of small me to to take in other perspectives and to share the more I get back. And it's, it's, I think it's easier to do that when you're in a small community. You know, I think small is really beautiful, because you have to see everybody, you know, all the time and there's so many places that you interact. And it's just, it becomes something that's really emergent, and everybody sort of encouraged to be generous, you know, and it goes back to that idea of service. If you have a healthy community, then there's a lot of service going on there's a lot of volunteer work going on. So many people you'd be amazed at how hard they work at their paid jobs, whether they're gardeners or plumbers or electricians but also how much time they give, you know, outside of that and not expecting anything in return. And that's something that's always, you know, kind of blown me away about the Caribbean particular and, and it goes back to that, that sense of collective self help, you know, and that could man. There is. So yeah, thank you for that. Thanks for the question and your response, Jessica. There is also, as I'm listening I'm thinking about what what you've said about Dominica and the fact that it is very unusual in terms of ample rain, you know, the and fertile soils and it is a place of abundance and yeah my sense is that does make it easier for us to relax into connection and generosity. Yeah. Yeah, and I should add to it is, and Tim always reminds me you know Dominica is not the norm when it comes to small islands. You know our neighbors to the south, St. Lucia or Barbados to the east are much drier, much flatter have many, many more people, and they don't have rainforest anymore they don't have a lot of their colonization, of course destroyed much of those natural ecosystems and people were moved off the land and into the service sector when tourism boomed. And so you have mass tourism, most of the islands in the Caribbean have a lot of tourism. And so people are disconnected from the land. And a lot of people have forgotten the these kinds of arts farming, you know, stone masonry. And my friends in St. Lucia say, you know, people don't remember it don't know how to farm here and I'm thinking St. Lucia is just two islands south, but such a different development trajectory, you know, where everybody rushed into that industry, you know, in a big way, and rushed for the money. And what they're finding now is they're much more food insecure. And they're having to relearn some of these basic things around farming and and how to take care of the land kind of thing so it is a unique place for sure. Okay, I'm going to go to Greg next Greg would you unmute yourself and ask a question. Sure. Great to be here Jessica. Thank you for sharing your beautiful place you haven't in Dominica. I'm coming to you from North Florida. We experienced quite a few hurricanes here as well. And right now we are. We're getting off of a high from last night when we had a group of about a dozen politicians we have elections, taking place here in the US right now in Florida is at least our county is very aware of a climate emergency with sea level rise taking and our county happens to be a safe haven in from the coast lines and so initially I brought the climate emergency to our county in preparation in 2019. After hearing Jim Bendel's or reading his paper in 2018 and I guess my question is, you know, I saw you really help put together some connected the dots for me with XR and and and Bendel's paper and my thought is, we foster a sense of resilience when we prepare each other emotionally and mentally for for catastrophes and we here in Florida we're used to the idea of hurricanes, although within the last three years we've been graced with very few hurricanes, due to La Nina, but we are kind of complacent in the sense that we were, we're all in this together through this covert thing but we're not in the same boat, like right now I'm living in this beautiful loft department. But, you know, I'm a, I'm basically a refugee here in a million dollar community on lakeside and I'm at, I'm living here on their braces so good graces and and I'm finding myself in a position where I'm like, I'm trying to reach out to these folks and let them know about the issues that are facing us in our terms of our immediate future and what we can do about it, where I am in central Florida and I'm going to try and try and summarize for you thank you for illustrating it's okay so bringing it down to the the fact that is it, do you think that a catastrophe is necessary to bring a community together or can the da forum or a more deep adaptation in general, foster a sense of resilience beforehand by, by introducing the topic and engaging people. Right. Thank you. Yeah. Well thanks Greg thanks for your interest and I, you know, in my experience I love the forum I think I've met so many amazing people, you know, online I think that the major thing is and I've always felt you need to be able to bring that online and bring that internet and knowledge and awareness back into your local community, you know, for it to really have an impact. I think the future is local. And I think it's wonderful to get inspired and to go out there and to meet people in different pockets. But I think it's absolutely key to bring it back into your local community so that you start to build a network where you live, you know, because those are the people that you're going to be counting on when the internet goes down, you know, and when supply chain stop it's it's going to be your neighbors the people in your vicinity. And so, however it takes to bring them on board to to open up your home or wherever you are to start those conversations. I think it is a place to start. And I think it's true that if a disaster hits you definitely people out of necessity will come together but it's best to start to make those networks now to figure out who you can count on. You know, I learned a lot from long before the hurricane who I could count on because I was working with them I was volunteering with them on different projects, holding different events. And so I had this understanding of who people were we were already connected. And so, when disaster hits, it's kind of natural. These, these networks just, you know, kind of fire up and get into action and do what's needed. But if you can somehow, you know, really get to know who's around you in a bigger way and who are the people that, you know, might be able to start that conversation with. I'm going to build on that a little bit and yes certainly what you said about the deep adaptation forum being like I think of it as a dojo you know there's a there's a lot of incredible and powerful work going on around people really really committing to say decolonising or divesting ourselves of the all of the assumptions all of the mainly invisible cultural narratives which are about just do more quicker progress and achievement and and power and all of those all of that engagement that I have had in the forum has has impacted me it's really impacted on my my life with real humans made of meat. And I wonder so that's what I'm curious about what in what ways does deep adaptation translate into your into your life. Certainly it's, it's really helped me to. I think to more deeply accept this there's so much. Yeah, there's so much there. I get pointed into different directions there's so much content and resources that I've been introduced to that I wouldn't have. There's this idea that there are like minded people all over the world that are grappling with these massive questions and this complexity. And these interlocking crises. And there's this this is feeling it's a and it's a very new thing I think it was just locked down being in lockdown I was online so much more and I and I really had a time to sit with these massive issues and then to start to talk to other people about them and the forum kind of curated all of that really beautifully. And then the, I think the framework of the four hours is something that I've been really working with a lot. And actually, all in the, in our series I ask everybody about the four hours are people familiar with that. Jim bandel had suggested this framework for responding. So restoration reconciliation resilience. And there was one more. I think the link wish and then a friend of mine said reverence should be in there too. And so, you know, how in this time can we sort of metabolize what's happening at an emotional and spiritual level. And what are the kinds of behaviors that we should be leaving behind and what are the kinds of things that we should be moving towards. And so that's also kind of a criteria used to actually select my guests for the, for the series, and people who kind of embody that. And so, you know, that's just one area that that that has been helpful for me in terms of the forum. But the other one is what we talked about earlier is having a deep live gathering. I'm curious to see how that will work with the sort of hybrid in person gathering and online and being able to sort of link with with what's happening in other spaces with the group. So there's, you know, I'm still I think I'm still kind of absorbing how the forum has impacted me. So it's a it's a complicated question but there's, there's just, yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot there. There's a lot of amazing people. And it's yeah, you would not have met you would not have been able to meet these people in any other way because they're in different parts of the world. So it's been this incredible way to curate people who, you know, are in your sphere, in terms of understanding these issues. Thank you. And I'm going to ask Sunday Sunday you spend question do you want to ask it now. Certainly I come to this in a unique situation in that I'm very close family with with you Jessica. And I'm very interested you mentioned intergenerational work. I live in an 85 year old body. So I come to this awareness, fairly late in my life. Him and Jessica are key teachers in my life now. It's kind of a turnaround and they have. I'm very conscious of the act of inner work that I am doing now around deep adaptation and preparation. I'm not sure where the elderly fit into the act of work of preparing. I'm having a hard time articulate it. My work, as I have become a pupil of Tim and Jessica, my work is very internal. And as I meet all of the people through the forums, I have a sense of a lot of activity important incredible preparation activity. Whereas for me, old age is a very productive time, even though I find in the white North American culture, the elderly tend to be pushed aside. But I don't, I feel very, very involved in life but at an internal level. And to hear what you have to say about intergenerational relations within this understanding collapse. Yeah, that's a long way of asking my question. Yeah, I, I just, I really think it's so important when we gather to to make sure there's representation, you know, at our monthly discussion groups. We kind of have at least three generations represented, you know, from the boomers to higher than the boomers and your generation to millennials. Not so much generation said, you know, my, my daughter's generation but just because there's this sense of, I think one of the problems is we've been really compartmentalizing learning and growth, you know, and in the, certainly in the urban education is always divided by ages and that it's so important that you're part of these discussions Sandy whenever the opportunity arises. Because young people, I think they need to hear from older people that they recognize how difficult life is, you know, going to be for them. They're lacking. They're really feeling like there's a tone deafness with older people that they just don't care, because they're on their way out or something and they, and it's your chance, it's your turn to clean up the mess. But I think it's so important for them to hear that you're doing that inner work that you're just as stunned as they are, you know, with what's what's happening to our world and you're grieving just as much. And there's no, there's no blame or there's no shame, you know, we're all part of systems of oppression, we didn't create these systems, we were born into them. And I think they need to hear that honesty from older people, not to shy away and not say, oh, it's going to be okay, you just need to hope, you know, and be positive and think positive. And I think that's, that's the danger. And that's why I think young people kind of stay away and hesitate to be part of these, these wider circles. But yeah, there's absolutely a need for, for you to be involved and to have those conversations with younger people because they really are really scared and anxious. They want honesty, you know, they want to hear things that are honest and sincere. So I think that's, that's a huge place, that's a huge part you can play. And the activity, I mean, I don't know, it's what your interest, what your interests are, you know, just holding space for people is a huge, a huge gift. Thank you. I don't know if that, if I respond. That's helpful. Thank you. We have come to the end of our time together. Thank you very much Jessica for agreeing to join and for providing such a rich experience in the last hour. I'm really, really grateful. Well, again, thank you Katie and thank you Stuart for hosting and for inviting me. And, you know, I really look forward to continuing getting to know more people in the forum and doing more, more interesting things.