 There is a paradox moral power was always very much based on the absence of other power This was why intellectuals during the Enlightenment were powerful because they didn't have a military power Who is the person that is going to come first to you now when you talk moral power the Pope? And even if you're not a Catholic you have a person who tries to make basically Change on the base of the power of his words I'm saying this because I do believe two things can change and they're slightly different The globalized world we know each other or at least we have this illusion better than any before because we travel you see But this resulted in the crisis of universalist understanding the biggest universalist was Kant who never left his small town It's easier to imagine the mankind When you basically don't see it the problem of the human rights and rights in general cannot be simply taken as a universal rise They start to be instruments instrumentalized here and there for different purposes and I do believe what we have is the crisis of the universal values Not simply because people have a different alternatives and others But because people are afraid of a cynical use of them for political purposes And this is why you believe that the moral leaders of the world are going to be the political leaders This is know how it was the moral leadership was always in opposition to real power So from this point of view to basically blame Donald Trump that he's not the moral model He's not aspire He's simply going against history. So in a certain way we should ask about ourselves What we are saying why the people are not much more interested in the ideas coming out of politics So I fully agree with that and I am more worried about ideological necrophilia That is a passionate love for bad ideas Ideas that have been tried and tested in different countries in different moments and they always end in tears They always don't work. They generate suffering human suffering killings Genocide all of that and yet regularly we see how Leaders adopt these very bad ideas, you know, there is a passionate love. It's it's necrophilia. It's it's on of an ideological kind still there is this Proliferation of bad ideas that are accepted as good ones Even though they have been tried and that we know they don't work I think that is closely connected with moral leadership, too There are people with that moral authority and I think that is in my view the problem of whether religious if religious leaders Go get go into in India in the Muslim Arab world if religious leaders go into politics Then the two get mixed. I think it has always been in the in the old days that it was the religious leaders who held to account the The Those who are governing and one worries that Now that they going if they would when they want to govern whether who is going to help to hold them accountable basically I think this Interesting and enriching the conversation, but I believe that there is a responsibility for Moral leadership. There's a requirement for it. I am Catholic so I acknowledge the the moral Guidance that I get from from the Catholic leader That's a force for good in my view as with anything else if you use it the wrong way it become becomes abusive if you look at the Chinese historical tradition political culture I Think really I console, you know advocate this to Non-Chinese as well. It's about moderation. Don't go to the extremes You could have your own belief system, which we respect But don't impose this on others in terms of so-called universal values We had a long study. We check these universal values freedom of expression freedom of assembly Then you look at the Chinese Society even in Singapore in Hong Kong all these who use chopsticks The number one priority is always public order In the United States it's freedom of speech Although I doubt because United States is a politically correct society could you have real freedom of speech? But that's another question. Yeah, so in terms of values We should all Respect each other's values and then try to see because in the Chinese philosophy. It's about the opposites can't go exist Then are the final Words are for you on the notion of moral power Yes, and about the other World you said about greatness. Yes about greatness If you don't mind I would like just to tell you that about that a few times in my life I had the feeling to meet some people who are great When three sort of circumstance Number one people who don't mind just their own business This is a way of greatness For example, social workers People of NGO Working on the ground With a lot of commitment for a business which is not theirs they are French there are Americans they are from Wherever prosperous country and they decide to devoid a part of their life To a place of misery, which is not their own business for me This is a sign of greatness And I met a lot of people like this in many circumstances I met also another way another sort of people embodied by greatness. I remember in your country. She'll use a live I met him in 1990 just before he became president. I met Vasslav Havel before the revolution of 1989 I Admired a lot and Unnamed young man who the year the day of Tiananmen the massacre of Tiananmen a young Chinese guy Who stood in front of a tank? With bare hands With no weapons With such a courage so for me This young Chinese boy Vasslav Havel Jelio Jelev Confronting the pure force of the heavy weaponry of the police of state This is Greatness, this is bravery and third situation where you can speak of greatness is People all over the world in any place in every possible situation Who have the courage to express an opinion? Which does not match? With the sense of history or with the sense of the match of what the majority of the people believe And this is very important because you have in the tradition of philosophy a definition of the greatness which is exactly the contrary Hegel Hegel says that a great man is a man who has the feeling the sense of the nose to feel the sense of history and To embed himself in the sense of history. This is for Hegel What is the great man a great man is for example? Napoleon he knows that the time is the time of the universalization of France revolution so on I Really believe exactly as the opposite the real greatness consists in expressing a point of view Expressing an opinion even if the sense of history does not seem to go in this sense Even if the majority of your fellow citizens or of the rest of the world believe that it is a no way No exit path this way of expressing Something which is which seems to you true Which seems to you fair Even if it is at high cost This is greatness for example remember Nelson Mandela He was for such a long time. He was alone. He was against the supposed sense of history, which was Every everybody thought that the apartheid with with last Forever of a long time. He stood on his point and for this reason he was a great man