 Welaciam, plansau, cysiw. Yr eithaf, Osino, am y cwm mor chael, a cymdeithasiat eich mun wizardiau yng Nghymru. I have apologies from Duncan McNeill and Lewis Macdonald will be joining us. I know he's got another appointment, which he needs to be at at the moment. Agenda item 1, evidence session on stage 1, of the Scottish elections reductions of voting age bill. the first panel of witnesses to the stage 1 process. The witnesses are drawn with Cormack for the Electoral Commissioner, Andy O'Neill, the head of office of the Electoral Commission, Ian Milton, who has a heck of a long title, Ian. In the bit of paper that I have been provided with here. You are here representing the Scottish Assessors Electoral Registration Committee effectively. Kim McDonald, who is the assistant commissioner for Scotland and Northern Ireland Information Commissioner's Office, welcomes, gentlemen. Thank you for coming along i'n gwych ymddai ddwyópol lessa oddym wedi dweud tych yn gwyllust teimlo'n gweithas. Rwy'n fawr, oherwydd dyddi John Lewis, ond i'n bach yn gweld sut recommendeb yn gyveet Aberadol, ond rhai'n ad aussiad o siarad do youtube gallwn gwiswgwll languages, mae'r bandysg iawn yn gweld gwysigdd gwyrdd oedd hwnnw yn iawn y cwm Balli, yn gwazi anghymoedd, gwrs dim fydd nag 991. ac rwyf yn gweithio'r gair. Andy Nales yn fawr, Priti Chypper. Dwi'n fawr i'r gael. Yn gwrs, rwy'n gweithio'r gyfrunig a'r tyfnod o'r anhygoelau a'r pelyddau i ffotoid i 16 oed. Yn cyffredinu eich cyffredinu a'r anhygoel a'r anhygoel ond ffollow in the referendum. We've commented on the bill as it's developed. We're working with officials. We are also lucky. We've been asked, it's in the provisions of the bill before you, to do some user testing on revised forms, which will be needed under the new process. We've just recently procured Ipsos Morate to undertake that for us, so that's occurring. We're obviously all very conscious of the timescale and trying to live within that, so we can have all of this working with the annual canvas, which can start from 1 July onwards. At the moment, we're confident that we're doing our bit to deliver all of this, and we think others are doing their bit as well, if you can call it that. John, I don't know if you want to add anything. No, one or two issues we're still considering, and we'll put them into our written evidence in time for the deadline for written evidence, in relation to the implications of reducing the vote in terms of particular issues about donations and relating to donations for people who are under 16. It might raise some unintended consequences when we're considering it. We'll be writing to you about that matter. It's quite complex in detail. Will you be able to provide us with detail before we get to next week's discussions with the minister? Will you be able to achieve that for us? We'll try. Your deadline for written submissions is 1 May, so we know that, so we'll try to bring it forward, then. Okay, it would be helpful just before we meet the Deputy First Minister next week. No other concerns beyond that, just so I can get that on the record? No. No, fine. One or two issues, rather than concerns, I would say. Okay. There are issues around deadline for registration of young people, donors, those things impact on public awareness campaigns and that, but we're really, because this is going so quickly, we're still thinking through some of the implications. So that's why we've said in our written submission we'll need to write on certain things later on. Okay. Ian, Cain? Yes. Really, since we last met in December, we've been in consultation with the Scottish Government officials and UK Government officials dealing with the co-ordination between the registration framework that we have at UK level and what's proposed, and that's going very well in terms of consultation. That's going very well indeed. We've had meetings, as I've mentioned in my evidence, round table meetings as well, with both UK and Scottish Government officials and electoral commission and software providers. So in terms of consultation, things are going very well. In terms of concerns, that comes out in my written submission and its timing, which we're all very aware of, and that cropped up in, I think, in my evidence earlier on in December. And just, if you like a picture, when we dealt with the independence referendum franchise Bill, that was first published in March and got royal assent in August for a canvas that commenced in October in 2013. Whereas the situation for us with this Bill is it was published in April, and we hope to get royal assent in July, but the canvas will start in August, so we're dealing with a much shorter timeframe. So that raises issues which I brought out in my written evidence, in terms of having to run the development at legislation, at operational and system planning, all at the same time, simultaneously, rather than one after another. So that raises issues. OK. I saw that, and that particularly comes through in 1, 2, 3, 4—the fifth paragraph of your submission to us, Ian, where you say that there are obviously issues of risk. But if I recall correctly, because at the last time we had this discussion, if I recall correctly, we were in private. No, actually we weren't. We weren't. OK, so it was an open session. But at the last meeting, I think, I think yourself, John McCormack both agreed that as long as the legislation was in place by the summer recess, then that would give everyone enough time to complete the work properly. Has anything changed in that regard, or has that still— No, no. Coming to my overall view, I mean, you asked me last time in December whether it was doable, and I said, yes, it's doable, and it still is doable, and we are doing it. So in that respect, things are all happening and they're all moving in the right direction. OK. Ken, do you want to add? Our interaction with the government has been somewhat less than Ian's and the electoral commissions, but that's not really surprising given the role that we play, whereas they're looking at very much the technicalities of the franchise process, we're looking at data protection and the handling of that information. What we did do, we encouraged them to undertake a privacy impact assessment, we encouraged that for all policy and legislative initiatives, and as we noted in the evidence, the written evidence we've given so far, they have undertaken one and we're satisfied with the contents of it. In general, we gave evidence previously for the referendum arrangements. We strongly advocate the retention of a young person's register for the same reasons. One thing I haven't covered in my submission, which I'm still investigating, is the issue of pre-population of registers, and I'm wanting to co-ordinate with our colleagues at our head office to ensure that our response coincides with what they did when Westminster made the initial legislation some years back. Go on, just tell us what that means for pre-population. The pre-population, when at the household canvas stage, the forms will be pre-populated with those who were registered in the previous year. However, there are issues where, obviously, households have moved, changing households and that comes up. That's divulging personal information, and it can also be quite distressing, obviously, when somebody has gone through a recent bereavement and the names appear in forms. There are issues like that. Rob Gibson had a couple of questions. In thinking back, convener, to the referendum and your experience of the public awareness and education campaign, what particular lessons are you going to take forward, given that the household canvas and individual registration is a different kettle of fish now? If I could answer that, convener. I think that the first thing that we would say is that the opportunity to collect 16th of 14th through to 18th is best done at the canvas, so that's why we support the bill coming through quickly so that we can hit the deadline. It's worth noting that the EROs will delay the start of the canvas until the beginning of August, because they can then collect them, because hopefully a cent will have been given. We've obviously talked with them. We are making plans to undertake a public awareness campaign to ensure that we make all 14th through to 18-year-olds aware of the new legislative provisions and ensure that as many as possible register. We will be doing a directed public awareness campaign. It's not finalised yet, but we're learning from the referendum experience. We're also learning from the experience of our public awareness campaign for the forthcoming UK parliamentary general election, which is on-going at the moment. We're looking at directed campaigning to online and social media and working with lots of partners to ensure that people get registered and are aware of the changes. A directed campaign is best in this regard, because it's the cohort of people who are online a lot. In the referendum public awareness campaign back in the autumn of 2013 into early 2014, we used online some social media and some partners, particularly Young Scot and such. We also did radio. We haven't come to a firm conclusion yet, but we're thinking that we get better value for money by spending more money on online advertisements rather than radio adverts. We learned that from the referendum and that the initial learnings from the UK parliamentary campaign seems to be confirming that. Yes, I did, but you sort of answered it. I was just interested in who the partners were likely to be. You mentioned Young Scot Andy. I just wondered if it would be the same partners that you used at the referendum, or if you felt that you'd learned something that would suggest perhaps that should be widened or narrowed, more focused? What we've learned is partners' work. Obviously, if you can get other people to talk to their connections, you get a better result. In the sense that we think that partners work, we want to expand that and we're looking at ways in how we do that in the next year. Particularly, we would then, in the lead-up to the Scottish Parliament election, hope that more partners would come on board and we can provide them information that they could use. Were local authorities partners in terms of doing it through the schools? Were they formal partners? We always work with the councils and the arrows. For us, we've talked about partners being other bodies apart from local government people, but they are also effectively a partner for us. We've always worked with the return officers and the arrows and the councils as a council to provide them information. They tend to ensure that. They dovetail with our national public awareness campaign so that they can do things locally so that we're not clashing into duplication. I just wondered about the uniformity of it. We heard evidence slightly related in terms of discussions in schools and things, but I've also picked up through that that the level of awareness through different local authorities perhaps varied. Is it possible to make sure that all young people in schools and, indeed, colleges and through different programmes such as Jobcentre Plus and things, do you get a certain level of information that allows them to understand what's happening and, indeed, register? As we mentioned, the last time we were before you giving evidence, we worked with partners in Education Scotland, the school leader of Scotland, the Association of Directors of Education and provided briefing for them on the referendum and then passed it over to them to discuss with the directors of education and education services across the country. We'll certainly be doing that. Again, we've built on those relationships, they're very strong and these are the professionals who know how to accommodate that information. We're ready and standing by and we've said to them and we'll be having further meetings with them about preparing bespoke materials for that for 14, 15, 16 and 17-year-olds relating to the next Scottish parliamentary elections. Since we've got a long tradition of working with the information officers in each of the 32 local authorities, they do the local information, we do the national and then we work together to make sure that they're complementary. Since the chief executives who are in charge of the education services are also the returning officers for the election, we would hope that there would be a very positive response to the delivery of that information and accommodating it in the school curriculum. We are not educationists so we couldn't say where it should go and what should be displaced and how it should be accommodated within the school, so we're aware of the limits of our power, but the best people we think to make those decisions and how it's accommodated locally are the educationists, as we said last time. We all live in hope of a chief executive returning officers at the election day. You want to reflect on some of that? Certainly, just picking up on the points that Andy and John made, the point is that with the electoral management board and the convener electoral management board Mary Pick-Aithley, there's an excellent key in there into the chief executive network. Electoral registration officers also obviously serve in each local authority and will work with educators in that authority. The idea of educationists being the best place people to educate is one that I support, but the support from electoral registration officers and the electoral management board will be to ensure that the information that's given to the educationalists is correct and accurate and helpful. One of the opportunities, if I may, is that with this becoming business as usual, we have an excellent opportunity now to build in this into the citizenship training that goes out from 14 years onwards through the schools. That picks up a point that was brought out last time about apprentices and people who have left the school system when they're 14 or 15. There's an ideal opportunity for educationalists to build in all the necessary information to the young people. I like the point about the permanence of it. It's different this time, we're making it different. I absolutely understand the role of educationalists. I think that what's bothering me and what we've picked up over the piece is the variation in those local areas. I know that you can't be absolutely prescriptive in terms of what comes down to local authorities and then local authorities and others pass on, but is the information given and the guidance given clear enough that says, look, this would be absolutely good practice, this is a minimum, you shouldn't go below it? Certainly, we need a national approach to this, definitely. As with any subject that's delivered at the point of teaching, the style of teaching will be different, but it's all from a common basis of curriculum. In that basis, we should have a national approach. It's not so much the teachers that bother me, it's the good practice that comes from national down to that level that then goes down to school level, and there can be huge variation in each of those steps. I would just like some kind of assurance that it'll be pretty and clear what's expected by the time it gets down to classroom, college, training level, etc. We'll be using all the parts of persuasion. We have convener to talk about good practice, and we have a lot of materials that we've prepared over the years that are still relevant and can be updated for this new cohort of voters. But I'm still optimistic when looking back over the referendum and what happened there and the examples of good practice. School leader Scotland and education Scotland are very much aware of the differential there was, and I would hope that the importance of every youngster getting access to top quality information will be taken aboard this time. Stuart, not this, I think that he's got another supplementary. First of all, I'm delighted that Mr Milton mentioned the issue of apprentices, because it was a point that I raised through the previous legislation. But it's certainly a question to Mr O'Neill. You mentioned in terms of the advertising and the promotion. You will focus a bit more on line as compared to potentially radio. But there may well be some particular radio programmes where it would actually be useful for yourselves to have that input and to promote and encourage the take-up and people to register. I can think of one or two, certainly straight away, but I wouldn't rule out the issue of radio. It can be a very useful medium. We've ruled it out. I think what the moment is, we're trying to figure out do we do it and to what degree. Particularly, I mean, certain radio programmes, if you're talking about paid for advertisements, you've got to produce radio ads and such which you can sell and such. But there's also major work which you can support your public awareness campaign, which we do through interviews and such like. We can pick it up that way, but the plans on setting stone are still being thought through and we're still picking the learning up from the current campaign for the UK Parliamentary. One thing that we're very excited about about the recent campaign to get people to vote before the 20th of April was the two areas where we had done much more work this time and seemed to have had from our early indications of a strong reaction was, first of all, a partnership with Facebook, where it was much more extensive than it was before. We built on what we learned at the referendum and that seems to have been the variety on targeting different audiences through Facebook and different and Twitter feeds and things, which has brought in a lot of applications to register. Also, our communications team worked more closely and targeted radio and television producers and programmes and asked them to include material about that in their editorial, in their programmes. We know from our data that that has had an impact. Many more mentions in news and current affairs programmes and feature programmes about the importance to register, discussions about it and that has had an impact on the applications to register. We'd hope to learn from that and build that into the next campaign. I've got a question on the evidence from the information commissioner's office. It's about section 5 on page 4 of your written evidence paragraph 2. The issue about access to local authority records held for educational purposes is clear, but then you go on to talk about it appears to us that the ERO may not then have the same ability to access information about 14 or 15-year-olds in independent schools or those who are schooled at home. Could you expand on that concern? I would have thought that, certainly in terms of those schooled at home, there still is a local authority input and duty. My understanding is certainly that for independent schools there is no local authority link. I'm less clear on the home educational list, but I think that you are right that there is a duty for the local authorities to be satisfied that that's being undertaken. Our concern is just that there is a potential gap in the way that the EROs will be able to evidence the 14 and 15-year-olds. There's a small number, but nevertheless it's got to be covered in some way. Can I ask the other members of the panel to then, maybe hopefully, answer that? There's not only regulation 35 of the 2001 regulations, but there's also regulation 23 that gives the ERO the power to ask anybody for information. That body can be an individual or it can be a corporate body. As long as that information is required in connection with the ERO's duties, then there is that statutory provision in place already. For example, at the time of the referendum, it was possible to get information from other sources that weren't local authorities and still is. As far as you're concerned, those schools at home would be covered, for example, by local authorities? The schools at home, the home educated ones, are essentially registered with the local authorities, so that information is available to us. That was my understanding. In independent schools, you would ask them directly? Yes, the ERO would ask them directly, and the information is provided. It has been in the past. I don't see why it wouldn't be. I raise it because the information commissioner's office raised it, so I'm assuming that that's... You're satisfied by a knock? There you go. You had a second question. Oh sorry, I did have a second question. It was on a different issue. I didn't know you were going to ask me. I didn't know you were going to do both at once. This is about the electoral commission's evidence on page 3. You're talking about the publication of the register, and towards the end of that section, you say that there are no designated organisations at elections, and register are available to a wider range of organisations than at a referendum, so a specific consideration will need to be given to the issue. Again, I can ask you to expand on your concerns, if there are concerns that you're raising here, about the wider range of organisations that would be available to access the register, or able to access the register, I should say. The model of use at the referendum is different from the model for elections, because the register used at elections continues on, it's permanent. Under the referendum, the only people who got access to all of those who could register 16-year-olds and such was the designated leads, the yes and the no campaigns. The other 40 permitted participants, the other registered campaigners with us, couldn't access that. Under the current rules, we would have all parties who are able to access registers, candidates, councillors and such who have a legitimate right to access a register would get the local government register, slash Scottish Parliament register, with everyone 16 and over on it. You wouldn't get to see the under-16s. There is a suggestion, the information commission has raised the issue, which I think needs to be thought through, of those who you would only have, if you would go back to the referendum model of itainers who would be 18 in the year in the life of the register would be on the local government, slash Scottish Parliament register, but everyone else would be on the young voters register and people wouldn't get to see them. That is an argument about child protection, we're not child protection experts, you'd have to ask them, but at the same time, we would raise the issue of transparency and the ability of people to engage with people of such age in terms of campaigning. I think that there's also another issue that we need to think through in terms of donations. It may be improbable, but you currently, as drafted in the bill, if you are 14 and nine months and they fall likely to be an attainer on the register, if the law is the same as currently is for registers, you would be able to be, if you're an attainer, you, we think, can be a donor or a lender to a political party or a candidate. The issue for candidates in political parties, regulated donies, would be if you got a donation of more than £500, you would have to check the permissibility. If you can't get access to that person's details, that creates an issue for you. Now there was, there may be a work around, which we haven't thought through yet, and something that occurred in the referendum was permitted participants, campaigners in the referendum got access to all registers in Scotland, they didn't get access to registers in Northern Ireland, Wales and England, but if you had a donation from those parts, the work around was, we suggested that you get the donor to actually get a letter from the ERO saying that I'm on the register in wherever. So these are issues where we're still thinking it through and we need to write to you on them. Okay, there seem to be two ends to this problem effectively. One is about this privacy issue and one is about the wider access issue. So I think there's still a lot of work, a lot of clarification required, convener, on this area because I'm not clear about how this, I can't see what the end game is in this and exactly how we're going to end up with some of this. I think the end game is you need to make a decision in balance, which is, our job is to give you the advice, it's your job, I suppose, to make the decision. I mean, there's a balance between chair protection and the ability for transparency and the ability to campaign to these people in a direct way. Now you can obviously campaign to under 16s and 17-year-olds in a generic way, but togding parties in your politician, you do this all the time, I don't, but direct campaigning is considered to be more effective. So there's a balance. So I'm interested, okay. You're the convener, I mean. I thought you were first, I thought you were finished on your question. I wasn't, it's just a final question. You mentioned information commissioners evidence, it seems to be that the stuff from yourselves and the publication of register of political donations links into the information commissioners evidence when they're talking about sections 12 to 14, the protection of information, is that the link you're talking about there, that area, that's where these two areas, I think. Andy's brought up this other element which we haven't given any consideration to at this moment, but we will have a think about it, and that's on the issue of donations. We were concentrating solely on the register and the publication of the register, but again, as we've said, we think that the separation, I mean, there's good child protection reasons for that and the arguments have been well rehearsed and no doubt other witnesses will bring them back to you, but we were also bringing, raising your awareness of the fact that, of course, the electoral register as a whole is used for credit applications, which by definition, through law, are only able to be made by people over the age of 18. So we're passing the whole register to the credit agencies for their normal businesses. There is a huge number of individuals who would be on it, the 16 and 17-year-olds, who actually their information is irrelevant to the credit agencies and, under the data protection principles, they shouldn't have it because it is irrelevant. On this, section 12 to 14, if the register, as currently envisaged with the 16 and 17-year-olds on it, is handed to the third parties, these credit agencies, is that a breach of the data protection act? The act requires the information to be adequate and relevant. That's irrelevant information because they cannot apply. The thing is, of course, if there's a statutory obligation for it to be done and, again, that comes down to the way the act is finally written, then it wouldn't be in breach of the act because there was a legal obligation, but we would still very strongly argue that you need to take that dimension into account and obviously have the separation of registers. If it's not a breach, but if you have a legal obligation to do this, I can understand that, but you also surely have a legal obligation under data protection not to supply information that is, as you say, irrelevant, in this case, the 16 and 17-year-olds. Well, yes, but if there's a legal obligation to supply the whole register, then that will supersede it. But in your deliberations you should be considering the fact that actually that information isn't there and you should be abiding by these principles in your policy development. Thank you. It was really just to say that the information commissioner's evidence here is pretty strong, you know, strongly recommending etc etc. I just wonder if we could very aware of time constraints, I'm aware that we're having the deputy government next week and I wonder if we could perhaps have something back before that by the discussions you're likely to have following this meeting. I think that the use of the information commissioner's application to this for EROs as well. I mean, at present the credit reference agencies are entitled to purchase a full register at a statutory cost rate and EROs are obliged to provide it. And there's no way around that at present in law. But the full register includes data of 16 and 17-year-olds who are currently attainers until they reach the age of 18. So that information is already out there, it's publicly available, it's in the published registers that you can inspect in my office or under supervision in libraries. So that issue really has already essentially out there and in that point I think I'm not an expert in consumer credit at all but a lot of young people use mobile phone contracts and I think I understand that the electoral register is used to establish that that person has a link with that property by such commercial operations. But also the point about the concern over having a separate register versus having young people integrated in the full register. We've got to remember that at present the bill only allows disclosure of under-16s under three circumstances and that doesn't include credit reference agencies. So in terms of we can only disclose that information to the young person himself, we can only disclose that information to a returning officer or candidates in the run-up to an election and we can only disclose that if we're having to conduct a criminal investigation relating to voter registration or an electoral offence and in any of those occasions the date of birth or age-related information is not provided. Very helpful, thank you for that clarity, that's helped to clear up quite a lot of issues. Can I just get this into perspective as well? Those under-16, how many people will we actually talking about if we were in a balanced situation and balancing on the side of child protection and campaigners were not able to access that information? In reality how many people would that affect? Do we know? We talk in terms of around about 110,000 young people between the ages of 16 and 17 so you then have another 110 or thereabouts thousand between 14 and 15 but not all 14 year olds would actually feature in that so I suppose a rule of thumb very roughly maybe 75,000. Okay so compared with the whole electorate it's actually, although it's a significant number, it's not a huge number. Just so we can keep that in perspective on the deal list. Alison. A question for Ken, if I may convene out. Ken, in your submission you point out that voter registration forms for under-16 should give very clear information about alternative methods of registering such as anonymous registration. Why is that necessary and how does that work? I'll leave the workings again to the commission. It's necessary for child protection reasons. Some of those individuals will be under non-disclosure orders so people shouldn't be able to locate them easily. Normally this is through the agencies that they're working with, education authorities etc but I think we need to take due regard to the fact that they are subject to these non-disclosure orders and it's a responsibility therefore that we shouldn't damage that in any way or risk the integrity of it. Now also in your submission that you think the electoral commission will have responsibility for designing those forms and offer to work with them in doing so. Has that happened? As we speak and we're happy to work with the information commissioner's office to achieve what he's talking about so it's occurring now. The testing for the forms is which I alluded to earlier is the forms which would highlight the people alternative means of registration such as anonymous registration and such. I've got a couple of other questions for to Ian and Andy or John. The financial memorandum lays out quite clearly what the Government thinks the costs are so I think it would be useful for us to get on record whether or not you think the elements that have been allocated to first of all the EROs and the electoral commission whether you're content with where we're at I mean people can always ask for more money I know that but given the discussions you've had with the Government you think they've reached a reasonable place? Yes in short yes convener the ERO Scottish Government approached EROs to ask us what we felt the costs were likely to be and we've given it our best estimate. And they just stomped up right away. Good grief they're not they should be negotiating harder. Similarly they sought our advice on estimates and we gave them it and they appear in the financial memorandum so I wouldn't pretend. Okay fair enough. Also Ian in your submission you highlighted challenges faced by three EROs in relation to registration software. What are these and what's been done to overcome them? The challenge is having the software houses able to deliver the functionality that EROs will require on time and fully tested because of the timing that we're looking at. The software houses who provide the electoral management systems that we use are commercial organisations they're working under a lot of pressure to deliver individual electoral registration functionality and as I point out in my evidence in terms of the statistical management information that EROs and the Cabinet Office and the Electoral Commission were looking for they haven't managed to deliver fully all the functionality that was essentially sought and that is brought out in the reports that the Electoral Commission published in the revised registers that were published in December in England and Wales and in March in Scotland this year. So there remains a concern that the software houses will not be able to deliver the full functionality that we will require and I suppose this is in a way emphasised or compounded because we can't give them a full system requirement specification until we know exactly what the law is going to require us to do and of course that's my point about parallel development rather than series where currently the law is being developed so at the point of procurement and appointment we can't say which is now we can't say this is what we want the system to do off you go and deliver what we're saying is this is what we think the system is going will need to do but there might be changes but at the end of the day the requirement will be to deliver functionality so we can commence our canvas on 1st of August so in that respect there are risks that's being addressed through good liaison between Scottish Government officials software developers themselves and EROs and that's working very well indeed it is a challenge but it's being addressed in a correct fashion but it nevertheless remains a risk whenever you're relying on a third party to deliver something that is necessary for you to fulfil your statutory duties there is a risk that that third party might not be able to deliver exactly what you require it wouldn't be a very clever third party you couldn't manage it though because in these circumstances they wouldn't fancy their chances of getting a contract again in the future so there's every incentive for them to get it right absolutely okay is there any more questions at this stage that's very helpful and thank you for bringing out some points which I don't think we'd all fully understood before we began this session but and we've also began to find some solutions to it as well and I know there's still further work to go on in areas of donations etc and so we'll give us some meat to discuss with the deputy first minister next week so thank you very much for coming in a suspended meeting for a short period and we'll begin again shortly. Now we recommence the evidence taking session on the Scottish elections reductions of voting age bill and thank you for all the witnesses for coming along today and we've got I'm going to introduce you all but I'm not going to go through all your titles because it will take me forever but I'll start with David McNeill who's with young scott and Louise Cameron who's a member of the Scottish youth parliament Graham Connolly who is from the centre of excellence of looked after children in scotland bill scott who's given evidence to us before and director of policy inclusion in scotland. Philip White from the NUS Scotland and Bruce Adamson who is the chair of the board of the Scottish child law centre thank you very much for coming along to help us with our deliberations. Just a very quick question I just wonder in light of the referendum experience for 16 and 17 year olds voting what's your overall view of the bill are you of any concerns and you've probably want to tell me whether or not you support the proposals at this stage I can probably guess where most people are coming from but we need to get things on the record so who'd like to kick off? Bill you're the most experienced person here I was about to call you a veteran but I won't do it to you. I think I'd like a younger person maybe to go on and ask speakers. Yes absolutely true. You can speak maybe from personal experience. Well firstly I'd like to thank you very much for inviting me along today the bill is absolutely excellent I'd like to commend you all on the work you've done on it it's really great. Speaking in experience of the referendum we were so happy at SYP that it was extended for 16 and 17 year olds to vote and it's been even better that it's been extended for all future Scottish elections. I think the experience of the referendum is absolutely great and I mean it's helped us to disprove all the arguments for against votes at 16 which you know is a campaign that we've been looking at since the start of our organization for 15 years and I just think you know it's such a great opportunity that we're getting this chance for 16 and 17 year olds to vote in future elections because it really does encourage political participation in young people and I think that's something that's really important that's going to come out of this bill that you know we're going to get more young people involved in the political system and from an earlier age and it's more likely to create a voter generation because we're going to be able to engage them at a younger age and it's going to keep them engaged throughout their life hopefully in the political system so I'm really pleased that the committee has considered this this bill I know how hard you've all worked on it and I'd just like to thank you for you know pushing it through it's really great thank you lees very helpful very encouraging contribution to begin with thank you we think it's particularly important for young disabled people because 16 17 year olds when the great majority of them are making a transition from school to adult life but they've not often got experience in making decisions for themselves their parents are often very protective of them tend to make their decisions for them and so we think you know that that right of passage to adulthood and making a really important decision a political decision about who you want to run the country actually for them is even more important than maybe for other young people because in many ways they've not been treated as an adult at all and not even as a young adult and this is an opportunity to make a stamp and say I am an adult I'm getting to make this choice and I'll feed back later about some of the experience we had with students for canty bridge college I'll come back to that but you know quite inspirational really how young disabled people reacted to getting the vote for the first time so enthusiastic about it thank you a comment just in the general spirit of congratulating the bill team and the committee celsus and our partners who care scotland made representation to the bill team to ask them to consider having a section in the bill which specifically had a duty on local authorities to support young people who are looked after to register to vote and that was borne out of our experience actually in the in the lead-up to the referendum where we we felt that local authorities varied considerably in the extent to which they had helped look at young people who are looked after and living in quite complicated situations and although the referendum bill actually had a reference to young people it's the same reference that's in the in the current bill in relation to being able to register at a previous address actually the the real issue was in getting to grips with the process of registration and thinking about voting so we've delighted actually that there's a section in the bill which which achieves that purpose and i should say that in the period of during the referendum we had good collaboration our three organisations who care scotland celsus and the electoral commission in providing information and we plan to do the same for the in the lead-up to the to the election next year good bros carishard law seems absolutely shares the enthusiasm of my colleagues and congratulates all of the work that's been done by this committee and and and others the Scottish child law centre has been around for for over a quarter of a century now and and over that period we've seen the the introduction of the convention on the rights of the child the the incorporation of of the european convention with the domestic law the creation of this parliament with its strong human rights traditions and i think this this flows from from that the guarantee for free elections contained within the european convention under article 3 of the first protocol requires the the state to create conditions which ensure free expression in the opinion of people and the european courts recently commented quite a lot on the presumption in favour of inclusion so the extension of this franchise is is fantastic and and the the wide political support for it is is well appreciated what i think is also excellent about about this bill is the the focus that's been put on ensuring that that privacy rights are respected the right to to respect for for private life and recognising some of the vulnerabilities of children being different from from that from adults and so looking at that and then the strong um the strong references to promotion and i think this is this is going to be absolutely key in terms of ensuring that we actually engage young people um particularly harder to reach young people um gypsy traveller community disabled young people looked after young people um young people that aren't in mainstream education and i think that that reflection the bill is is very very powerful um what i would say though is from that the scottish child law centre's point of view we've got kind of two roles one is that the promotion of children's rights and i think this this bill sits very closely with that the other thing that we do our kind of bread and butter is is giving legal advice and of the five and a half thousand calls we've had over the last year our calls and emails and other things but the five and a half thousand contacts not one of them related to to exercise of political rights um i don't know whether we can read too much into that but um but but i was was quite shocked that there wasn't even one and with all of the all of the promotion around the referendum the discussion around around this how active young people have been on social media the the people that contact us for legal advice um it's not forefront of their minds so good yeah i think we agree um so thank you again um i think that we will to do this for 2016 is great and we're glad that the speed is being done by um i think the referendum show that it's responsibility the 16 and 17 year olds fully understood and not just that but they grasped with both hands um it's a right that we know you can't take away from them um i think on a legislative basis the bill as it stands is you know positive we've got no real concerns i know there's some potential issues around timing to make sure we've got right i think the real key for us is around sitting to the side of legislation is around implementation um so following on from what Bruce said and i'm sure i'll come up later um i think the referendum showed so i know that figures in terms of turnouts et cetera you know they're very difficult to get down whenever you're looking at very small sub samples but it looks like 16 and 17 year olds turned out highest amongst all the youth groups that very much mirrors the austrian experience whenever austria dropped its voting age to 16 they were able to look at first time voter rates so 16 to 18 and 19 and 20 year olds um the experience there was 16 and 17 year olds voted at around the average of turnout and actually much higher than 18 or 19 and 20 year olds seems to be a similar experience in scotland and that may be down to school maybe down to political awareness and education and i think echoing what Bruce said i think around implementation that's the real key for us and particularly for those hard to reach groups um so following on car levers particularly or a big one um but equally if school does play a big role in it we need to look at needs we need to look at those that aren't informal education and ensure that you know every 16 and 17 year old no matter where they are or what they're doing um have the full information that they need to be able to actually use this new find right okay david echo the comments of colleagues that were delighted to see the introduction of this bill um and no votes at 16s uh a campaign that's been long led in scotland by the syp in the us and it's really pleased to see it the experience of the referendum i think the votes uh the 16 and 17 year old first time voters it was it was a real highlight of the process to see how they engaged in it and i think the research showed that they turned out to be some of the most informed voters used the most amount of uh uh sources to find out information so i think to see that um kind of spark of engagement in the democratic process to see that continue um in the 2016 scotland parliamentary elections and onwards um is a great achievement um and uh there's lots that we can do as partners to support that continued engagement and you know there'll be lots of interest from elsewhere in in europe and other countries who are currently looking at um the the decline in voter turnout amongst young people and how they can reverse that okay okay it's very helpful and it's a spread of an out in terms of where we are generally but can i just ask them connelly a particular question because in the paragraph four and page three of your submission and obviously graham i recognise what you said about the about the bill and look after children but obviously if i've got it right you want to see that going a bit further in terms of those who were formally looked after your children and how or are now either continuing a care placement or receiving aftercare services have you any idea how many people we'd be talking about in that particular bracket yes i thought you might ask me that question how feasible is it well it seems to ask that local authorities in practice wouldn't discriminate between children who were technically looked after in the definition under the definition of the 1995 act and in a placement and another child who had previously been looked after but elected to stay in a placement so in practical terms we don't think that's a barrier but we just wondered whether the bill should should be precise about this in terms of the numbers of children that might be affected with the reasonable estimate might be 3000 looked after young people in the age bracket 15 to 21 that's based on the most recent figures 2014 figures in 2014 the worth just over 3700 young people eligible for aftercare of which 70% were actually in receipt of services so just over 2600 clearly we don't know the number who will elect to stay in continuing care placements because that provision has only been in place since the first of April of this year obviously there will be a number of people aged 16 and 17 who will leave the education system and so they won't then be captured by some of the information campaigns which are going to be targeted through education education bodies local authorities particularly looking to yourself bill where in your submission you've mentioned that at the age of 16 and 17 a majority of young disabled people leave school do you have any thoughts as to how we ensure that those people aged 16 and 17 who have left the education system can be captured by the attempts to try and encourage them to register to vote there are definitely going to be more difficulties because because they have left the education you a lot of them will have left the education system but a lot then go on to college so if again if a focus is there on colleges hopefully for men us and others to make sure that college students have registered that will assist certainly also as I said like there are colleges like canty bridge who specialise in working way young disabled people to give them skills in the rural economy at canty bridge and those sort of establishments could be targeted as well but there will be a greater difficulty in reaching them having said that I think that one of the things about the referendum campaign was people were you know there were effort there were registration campaigns run both by the political campaigns both yes and no campaigns I know trying to get as many people as possible to register and not lose their chance to vote I think that that is something that should never be continued by the political parties to to try and encourage people to take part in the democratic process certainly I've got long enough memory to remember the civil rights movement doing it in the United States to make sure that you know black people were registered but the democrats as well have done it in the states to make sure that poorer communities take up their right to vote etc so those sort of things can be done within the democratic process and should be because it is really really important that as many people as possible are registered and encouraged to take part in the process and schools yeah colleges yeah but we've all got a responsibility try to make sure that young people take an interest in politics because it's our future that could be determined by the outcome of elections I see lewis wants to come on maybe just build slightly in a supplementary which lewis might want to take on which is obviously there are also going to be young while I take on board the point about going into colleges etc absolutely there are still going to be a number of young people hopefully a small number of young people who will fall into the not in education employment or training category i wonder lewis is that something that scottish youth parliament have have thoughts on it yeah I mean I think schools are really important for engaging young people in the political system and you know helping them supporting them register to vote and stuff but I'm also another another valuable institution is like the youth work sector and also like voluntary organisations like syp we did a lot of work on the run-up to the referendum to get young people registered to vote and I think political parties have been doing a great job as well on the run-up to the referendum you know they did they put so much effort in to engage young people to you know engage them in both of the campaigns and get them registered to vote and I think that's something we would definitely like to see continued and something we think would be valuable at syp would be to introduce national guidance so that because I know many many of the people sitting around the table today feel it's very important to engage with young people and and work really hard at it but I think it varies between local authorities how involved they can be especially in schools and I know that a lot of MSPs MPs elected representatives find it very difficult to go into schools I think something that would be valuable for the committee to maybe consider would be to look at some national guidance to support you know every day we at syp engage with young people in a non-politised way we we can speak about politics but not be party political so I think something that would be very valuable would be you know promoting our national guidance so that MSPs can go into schools and engage people in the political system also I was a modern studies teacher so that's one of our new and I think that's pretty helpful because you know what louise has opened up is the awareness and the registration issues that have to be encouraged through schools and much of the evidence we've had has said you know we have to maximise young people's awareness and perception of politics as NUS has said and how youth link has said we urge the development of a clear position of what local authority employees in particular youth workers and teachers can and cannot say or do during that period with regard to young voter education support and political literacy activities pretty clear that louise has raised the issue do others back this up about the idea of national guidance and particularly getting over the inconsistencies that we uncovered during the referendum campaign about each local authority having a different view to the other indeed the risk aversion that came out in those yes absolutely we would support the idea of national guidance the the primary duty is obviously on the state to provide education for children and it's encapsulated and amongst other places in article 28 of the convention on the rights of the child which talks about the obligation of the state to to educate children in things like human rights and democracy and understanding the world they live in the environments so that that primary duty sits on the state but what we need is some consistency across the country because it is is quite different and we also I think reflecting on what what colleagues have said need to recognise the strong role that the voluntary sector plays that the strong strong role of the care sector plays that that the youth work sector plays the people that are actually building relationships with some of the people that are hardest to reach those are the people that need to be able to have the tools to deliver this this education and again I'm certainly not not speaking as an expert but but we need to acknowledge that that people get information in different ways there's different levels of literacy there's language barriers there's communication additional support needs the communication needs to be delivered in lots of different ways and the guidance needs to reflect that that the information needs to be delivered in ways that the young people can understand it and in places where they where they access information and as I say others have much more knowledge than me in terms of how we can use information technology and the internet but what is most effective from from our experience is getting information from those trusted sources from the people that work with you very closely okay does anybody else want to reflect that David? Yeah strongly kind of support the youth link in in scotland youth parliament position around guidance to local authorities about what what they can do in terms of building kind of political literacy and I think there's lots of evidence from the referendum process about what what works well for example that that the ability to engage in debates on on the issues themselves in schools and not necessarily to do with modern studies provides a lot of insight on on how that can be be effectively delivered across across the school be a slight on your former subject but I think you know we can't just simply rely on I mean the reason the referendum cut through as much as it did is because it spoke to a fundamental issue that affected everyone it wasn't about a system it wasn't about a structure it wasn't about you know an ideology per se it was something that fundamentally affected everyone I think we need to it's not simply about a class it's not simply about a subject it's about providing that space not opportunity for people to come together and engage discuss debate and that's why fully back up at the notion of national guidance because I think it's important that schools don't just see this as a political education class in the sense that we might think of it traditionally ie a subject based a discipline based discussion and we do just simply learn about how political parties work how the legislature works how the executive works etc but it is fundamentally about issues I think that's something we raise in our evidence there does seem to be a lower level of political party identity amongst young people but where they are very much more engaged around issue based politics and issue based identity I think if we can provide and the schools of local authorities have the confidence and the knowledge and the understanding to actually be able to allow that space that opportunity out with formal classes then that's where you will really start to cut through to young people I'm really sure that they are fully aware and fully engaged in the process but yet it's no slight on modern studies at all to be available all across the country you could have an even bigger slight against it but they don't and but personal and social education is there and that's the vehicle okay let's redefend your corner hi and Rob was quite right with me we picked up when we went back after the referendum in various outreach projects to look at how young people had engaged and the overwhelming thing well the first thing that came back to me was the variation across the country as to how different local authorities allowed people to engage not engaged but allowed people to engage and the other thing that we picked up was a great deal of frustration amongst young people that they hadn't been given due respect in terms of being able to listen to the arguments and then make their own decisions now raised this with the electoral commission in the earlier session about the idea of some kind of national guideline that but I just don't think they got it to be honest they seem to think that if they pass it down to education authorities that's their job done and then it becomes the role of educators but it's that variation amongst the educators and even further down when you get to local authority level education departments and then into schools so the electoral commission also talked about working very widely with partners so my question to any of you here is where you partners during the referendum where these kind of things discussed are you partners this time round are these kinds of things being discussed and if not is that something that from this committee can go forward as a recommendation to look after young people because as I said earlier Celsus and Who Care Scotland did actually collaborate with the electoral commission in the lead up to the referendum based on the evidence that we had that there was a need and we produced some frequently asked questions which only sat on websites now it might be that there has to be further work done but the group that we actually targeted while those who support and advise young people who are looked after in other words principally carers because that's a group that needs to be targeted as well as young people themselves they need to have the wherewithal to answer young people's questions and some of these are quite complicated and technical so that's why we did that work and I know that Who Care Scotland collaborated with the electoral commission in at least one event and there is a commitment now to having that experience to do to do something similar in the lead up to next year's election I think that Linda's hit the nail in the head with speaking about the inconsistency between local authorities I think you'd really have a good understanding of what's going on in the system and from our work at SIP we found that some local authorities you know had had really great opportunities to engage with young people through schools others didn't I know I can speak from my own experience I set up a referendum debate within my school and had set up to have political elected officials to come into the school to have a debate to them be told I wasn't allowed to have that I think there's like a few there was like almost a fear in the system that they didn't want to kind of you know commit to having elected representatives in the school even though it was going to be equal pan like equal numbers on each side be chaired by an independent chair who wasn't a member either side and I think we kind of need to eradicate that fear and make it and really emphasise the fact you know that you can have politics with a little pee it doesn't have to be party political and put the focus more on political engagement and I think we can do that really effectively and I think that national guidance would promote this but I think that you obviously on this committee have a really good understanding of what's going on that that there is political engagement going on within schools but it just is so varied across the country that we can't really say well Scotland as a whole is doing really well and engaging people in the political system from a young age because some local authorities are doing an amazing job at it but others are just not having anything to do with it. Young Scott worked kind of very closely with the electoral commission and other partners and they run up to the referendum to build confidence of young people on what will happen when they walked into the polling booths and to encourage them to get registered in the first place with the very kind of mechanical things around it and then worked with the youth parliament led voter registration group to see how we could do that wider engagement and I think it's that wider engagement about how we build confidence of teachers of youth workers to discuss issues but not bring in bias and what they are allowed and not allowed to say and that's where I think guidance would be particularly to help on building that confidence in those sectors. The electoral commission said to us in previous evidence I think on the 8th of January that they were cautious about recommending a change what happens in schools they said they don't want to go into this area it was for education authorities do you think they're being too cautious? Definitely I think I've come back to modern studies my modern studies teacher was absolutely fantastic and she helped me with setting up the whole debate within the schools but I think they were they are we're being far too cautious I think that it would have been greatly helpful in the run up to the referendum to have some political representatives to come in and have a debate. I think that young people aren't silly we're seen as to be like oh they're going to be so easily convinced we're not we can make our own decisions the the independent referendum random has proved that 16 and 17 year olds were making their own decisions they weren't voting in the same way as their parents they weren't you know being forced into voting any way they can make their own choices and I think that the system needs to have more faith in young people and letting them make their own minds up you know it's not going to be seen as like if maybe the schools were you know having three no campaigners in or three yes campaigners in and not having the other side maybe that would be biased but if we can do it in an unbiased way that's not party political and promotes political engagement I think that you know there's no harm in doing that in the system yeah um I think scvo brought together a group of human rights based organisations in Scotland who all wanted to see increased voter registration increased participation because we believe it's healthy for democracy I took part in a an amnesty international human rights conference last summer during the referendum campaign where we were questioned quite closely by colleagues from other countries whose human rights organisations tend to have political affiliations you know they side with political parties et cetera and we think we've got an advantage here that a lot of the human rights organisations are politically neutral because the charity was in this country um that actually helps us in some ways reach out an scvo did collaborate with the daily record we're cells with bme organisations with oxfam et cetera to poverty alliance to try and reach groups which were underrepresented in the electoral register and I think you know that that again is a clue future work that could be done in this area but I very much agree you know I've taken part in hustings and schools in previous years um you know a leveled debate and discussion young people are no mugs they know when when they've been spun a line and actually as some politicians find out um they can get harder questions from that group than practically any other group in the electorate so you know I think there's everything to gain if there were national guidelines to to break down those barriers and actually encourage educational authorities to take a risk and that risk is worth taking because everybody has to take risks it's one of again one of the rights of passage you're growing up um is to begin to make your own decisions and and take chances and allow people to make decisions for themselves rather than make them for them I think it was short and millin was first I think just the two things that struck me and David McNeill on his comments earlier said that 16 and 17 year olds were the most informed voters throughout the referendum because they used more sources of information and we raised his comments a moment ago have more faith in young people I'm going to ask Louise a particular question and I'm not asking you to name or shame local authorities so I'm stressed out at the outset but he did mention in terms of local authorities obviously there were some that operated better than others now obviously this committee has undertaken work but from the SIP perspective could you provide any information in terms of any good practice that you that you were aware of that that could be considered certainly for going forward particularly for this election I can speak about more recent examples so we've recently just had a rest by P elections and the political engagement in north and south Lanarkshire was absolutely fantastic we had I think it was 11,000 11,000 votes alone in north Lanarkshire which was absolutely incredible you know it's a third of young people in the area they were doing a really great job at that I think another valuable resource that we have is is the use of social media I mean you can register to vote online now it's a tool that we need to utilise you know it's really great when you can you know you can promote registering to vote on facebook twitter you know all those all these social media networks and I think that's something we really need to put more work into as well because it's a way of accessing so many young people that the system misses if you miss them in school if you miss them in college practically everyone nowadays is on facebook and twitter so I think that it's a valuable way to catch them I know a lot of the work we did and the run up to the referendum and engaging young people was through social media as well and we had a we had a hashtag on twitter on the day of the on the day before the referendum and the day of the referendum to encourage people to go to the ballot box and it received huge publicity so I think that's a really valuable way to engage young people as well but yeah I'm north in South Lanarkshire where they were absolutely fantastic in the swip elections I'm trying to think of some other ones but yeah they were they were really good I know that they're really good at their political engagement their second politicians there you go think about that in terms of the because you'll you'll have got a memory base somewhere about yeah I'm sure we can get back to your policy team I'll get back to you with some other results from that we can definitely tell you where we've had huge increases in voting in somebody as we can get back to you thank you convener just want to have a bit more discussion about those who are hard to reach those who may benefit most from voting but who are you know traditionally been well you know I think and Bill Scott you say it in your evidence even discouraged to vote people with disabilities because there's an assumption that they're simply not able to it's just too difficult I just wonder what progress you feel is being made you know through the referendum itself obviously had incredibly high levels of participation but if we look at seeing in your evidence Graham you suggest that only nine out of local authorities were you know making real efforts to engage with those who were involved with looked after people do you expect obviously that's not enough yet but do you expect that we're going to see a real change as a result of progress that's already been made what would you like to see happen to make sure that every looked after child every person with a disability is on that register and is getting the support they need whether it's mobility support whether it's you know educational input to make sure that they too can really take part in the democratic process you want me to start just in reference to the that you've referred to the freedom of information request that I made so I should just say in defense of local authorities that was at an early stage in the campaign and and lead up to the referendum and local authorities were honest saying very few had I think thought about this as an issue and had actually plans to contact or support looked after children or plans that were concrete and I felt actually that by raising the issue it had helped so that's the starting point I guess and if I think about the examples that were given to me by local authorities the one that struck me as being the gold standard if you like is the local authority where a manager actually wrote individually to every looked after child in the age group entitled to vote saying this is your entitlement and we will help you to register it might be complicated but your carer or someone who knows you well will help you to do that and and that was a parallel letter which went to carers saying this letter had been sent now that's quite a formal process but I think it's quite empowering clearly the other approaches that need to happen to make to make this real are varied you know we we understand more about social media and making this this fun and I remember one particular local authority that suggested we'd like to do something what what advice do you have we had an idea we might have a kind of town hall meeting bring young people in and have a speaker and and and a representative from youth organisations said well that's that's an interesting idea but we've got we've got another idea why don't we have a kind of festival with you know with music and so on and as an adjunct there'll be information about registering and and help to do that so I think I guess it's a combination of the more formal procedures and also understanding understanding what what you know the methods that young people like to be to be engaged with thank you I mean certainly that formal approach sounds like a sort of robust way in which we can make sure that no one is is left out and perhaps that is something that should be adopted by all local authority yeah I mean my feeling was that I mean I confess that until I get interested in this area I hadn't actually read the referendum franchise act and it wouldn't have been on my bedtime reading list and I forced to read it and then I realised that I was pleased to see you as a reference to look after children but I had to read it several times to feel understood it myself and it and and that wasn't enough so I'm delighted of course that there is a now a duty on local authorities and that means that people have to think about how they do this and it also means that that duty applies to every local authority so that the variation in awareness and taking the seriously that I uncovered in the lead-up to the referendum addresses that particular problem but then you have to think about how it's done and and how it needs to be supported by managers staff feel they need to feel they're supported and this is the proper thing to do and they need to have the resources and it's I guess it's slightly more complicated in one sense now with individual voter registration for example residential establishments where they might just have that the manager would have automatically registered young people who are in the in the age group because it's now individual that's empowering of course but it means that that support has to be individually tailored one of the things that's changed quite markedly is the number of disabled people in institutional residential care compared to 20 30 years ago even and the people we were working with about five years ago four or five years ago a lot of them had been in institutional care when they first were entitled to vote and they had been actively discouraged in some instances from registering that really you're not up to that you couldn't make that sort of decision it's there and you know the learning to disabled people I met what is well informed or is badly informed about a political process and voting as a general population and is capable of making choices if they had the right information it's there so you know I think there was a lot of work done you know of the type you've just described youth workers social workers you know working with families and parents to make sure on this occasion that their children did register and that's something we've got to continue to actively encourage because yeah letters still come through the door and they may be addressed to the young person but actually quite often they'll be left and they've got to be opened up and make sure maybe action's taken but you know parents have still got a role in this and it is one to enable their children to take those steps to adulthood and assist them and if local authorities can help in that process well to the good but I know youth workers who went out of their way to assist young people who are almost completely excluded from the system we always offences in the background you know children's court it's that children's hearings they worked with them to make sure that they were registered quite rightly because they shouldn't lose out either so I commend all the workers that actually took a step further than they were required to go and and made sure that the people were working well the young people were working well actually got registered. I agree with what with what Graham and Bill have just said both from the perspective of the child law centre when we work closely with young people with disability and and in care but also in a personal capacity I've been a member of the children's panel now for around 12 years and one of the things that comes through very strongly with children's hearings is children that are supported and empowered to to engage with the process have the strongest voice and the strongest kind of solution focus they've got some really good ideas and those voices really needs to be heard in the democratic process not just through elections but but through other means as well and the work that's done by by organisations represented here but but also who cares and others in empowering young people to to express their rights and express their express their voice gives really really good outcomes and I think this this idea of ensuring that parents and carers and workers of various descriptions are all given the skills and the resources to to work with young people to make sure that they are engaged but also that there is this kind of this more formal system so so that there's former letters sent out and that there's a kind of a check against that I think I think both those things working together is is a really good way forward. Just a couple things I mean one of the most refreshing experiences I had during the referendum campaign was a debate a hustings debate held by one of the local churches and Alec Johnston was actually on the panel with me but they had a representative from each side who were from the local school and the young people actually were incredibly good advocates for the side that they were propagating and it kind of puts to bed this myth about young people not being engaged because one of the things I find is young people are incredibly switched on and engaged with the issues of the day and care very deeply about them the thing that they're not always engaged with is political parties and politicians and that's more an issue for us than it is for them but there's another issue that I wanted to pick up as well which is something I found during the campaign was I found people adults who were going to vote for the first time in their lives because their 16 or 17 year old was getting the right to vote or their 15 year old who wasn't able to vote was gutted at not being able to vote and was encouraging their parents to make sure that they used their vote as well so I wonder if you would agree that there is not just the benefit of young people participating but that through having those young people participating there is a knock on benefit that we might actually see more of the adult population participating because they are encouraged to do so by those very young people I don't know who wants to kick off on that more with what you're saying about issue-based politics that's exactly what we stand for at SYP and that's what we're saying all the time so it's really nice that you've said that yeah I couldn't agree more and they run up to the referendum I managed to convince all my family to vote which is unheard of and I had my brother messaging me on the on the morning of the referendum remember to vote of course I'm gonna remember to vote you should remember to vote but yeah I think it is really you know it's been so refreshing to have this for the for the referendum and hopefully it will continue you know that 16 and 17 year olds have been challenging their families about you know not going to the ballot box and I think now more than ever they realise the importance of going to the ballot box and having your voices heard and maybe like parents who have been disengaged or you know not just parents like any anyone who's been disengaged with the political system has kind of had this revitalised for them because there was so much engagement on the run up to the referendum with you know young people and other groups that it's just made it such a you know politics has become such a topic of discussion now around the table for young people and I think it's been so important that we've had this engagement and it needs to continue it's been absolutely fantastic in the run up to the referendum and it just means we've got even more work today to continue engaging people and through schools colleges youth work organisations like syp young scott youth link scotland you know it's been absolutely fantastic and I think it's it's a merit to the politicians and everyone who's been doing the work in the run up to the referendum to get all these people engaged that you know we have engaged so much of the population in the political system again and we just need to continue to do this I'm convinced of the importance of the mutuality in the learning relationship and it doesn't flow in one direction so adults learn from children I think there is a subtle difference though in relation to look after children and it's to do with the professional relationship and that's where there's a difficulty I think in families you can generally be open in the discussion and that openness extends to discussions about allegiances to a particular cause or a particular party even if that's a different party with you know within a family setting I think social workers and carers and others who have professional relationships with children are a little more cautious about that and they will have to think about the boundaries there you know and that unfortunately is just another area in which looked after young people's arrangement living is circumscribed you know if you're imagining a foster home relationship where the foster carers have their birth children and they have a foster child you that's a very difficult one to to manage where you feel you want to discuss this and that discussion goes into openness perhaps about your own views about voting but then you feel have I crossed a boundary in relation to the child I'm fostering that wouldn't worry me about my my birth children that's that's a very difficult one that people have to think about and they also want to reflect on that it's sure you got any other sorry mark no okay um I think this has probably reached the natural end of that conversation though I've got a couple of things a question which is a bit mischievous but I'm going to do it anyway according to votes at 16 campaign there are still four parties in the UK who don't support votes at 16 the UK conservatives UKIP traditional unionist voice yes that's who I thought when I read that as well at the dup now mr Cameron said he's open to the idea of open minded to the idea of votes at 16 you think the panel will convince them during the campaign period when we're in that he should commit himself to that before we get to the end of the election campaign he should get his mouth as and have a referendum on it no I think like we have disproven all the arguments against votes at 16 there's been extensive research done by the University of Edinburgh you know he's he's said that if if young people want to have this discussion then we'll have it well let us have the discussion we've said so many times we want to have it it's been syp's campaign it's been UKYP's campaign from all directions young people are saying we want to have this right it's 16 to be able to vote and I think that they need to have this conversation in the house of commons and consider it because I think it's it's a very valuable thing to have 16 and 17 year olds voting I think we've seen that from the referendum it's engaged so many people in the political system and it's so valuable to have you know to start the discussion at a younger age where they can continue to engage this through their lifetime we've seen so many people turned off to politics and it's such a shame because politics is fantastic and I think like from from making it issue based politics from getting people involved at a younger age where they can have these discussions it's brought so many people back into politics and I think it would be a great thing for the UK system to have votes at 16 for them as well so he needs to seriously consider his priorities and have that discussion I think it's a pretty strong place to end David is it representing another organization? Well I mean I know the SPIP and Scotland have been very active and proactive in the support for votes at 16 and it'd be great to see introduced across the across the the UK and there's kind of lots of good arguments that I think it's 16 and 17 year olds themselves that can convince anyone who's a doubting about this. There's certainly a natural coalition down south and certainly in the US nationally as part of that and we'll see after the next election whether or not there's a natural majority for it in the House of Commons but I think Scotland's leading a really positive example and we'll certainly see what happens this time next year in Scotland but I think the referendum show we can more than prove that it's worth taking that chance. I think going forward it has to be looked at across the UK there's a real risk that young people are not going to be able to vote in the UK election next year they probably will be allowed to vote in the Scottish parliamentary elections next year they will not then under the current system be able to vote in the UK election following that there's a real risk that we create a two-tier disengagement where we're telling young people that their vote is important enough in Scotland but it's not important enough across the UK and there's certainly a particular irony in the fact that many election campaigns are fought on the basis of arguments about what we're doing for future generations and the amount of debt we're getting future generations into and the state of the country we're leaving for future generations. There is an irony in the fact that young people do not then have a say in what that is and I think there needs to be a natural there is a natural coalition for it there needs to be a majority for it in the House of Commons and certainly I think it's one that right across this panel and right across the UK we certainly want to see taken forwards. All the objective evidence and it feels already alluded to suggests that the younger that people are able to vote the more likely they are to vote and secondly the more likely that they are to vote again it becomes a habit and the problem is if you delay the vote to 18 and then elections only come along every four years and this is something I'd like to see some research on is what happens if meaningful elections happen every year or every other year does that have an impact on participation I think it must so you know democracy is a good thing it should become a habit and honestly you know no political stuff involved at all but all the objective evidence suggests catch people catch young people and they will vote again and that can only be healthy for democracy in the longer term. I think it's a good place to end our discussion today I'm very grateful to all our witnesses for coming along today and for contributing so positively to our deliberations on the bill. On the conclusion I'm just going to say that the next time this committee will meet me on the 30th of April we'll be taking evidence from the Deputy First Minister on the Scottish elections reductions vote needs bill and now move this session into private session. Thank you very much.