 Rwy'n meddwl i chi'n wneud hynny ymlaen i'r myra hindliau, sy'n yma'n yma'n amseron yn yma'n yma'n amseron yn yma'n rai o'r cyllidau. Cyddechrau'n 5 dod? Rwy'n 5 ymlaen i'n gyfrith o hynny'r cyfrith. Rwy'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r myra? Rwy'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'w merdd. Yna'r rhywbeth hynny'n bwysig ddim yn yw'n myra? Rwy'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r myra, Mae'r ffordd yn gweithio'r ffordd, yn ffordd yn gweithio'r ffordd, i'w wneud i gydagfodol. Felly, rydyn ni'n cael ei wnaeth i'r ffordd, a gydagfodol, a'i gydagfodol. Felly, ydych chi'n gweithio'r Fadgin, yw'r Edinburer, yw Holyroob Palace, a'r Sheikhens gyda'r Gweithio'r Gweithio, a'r Ionfyrdd. Felly, mae'r ffordd yn gweithio, mae'n gweithio'r ffordd, a dweud i'n gweithio'r cychwyn, yw'n gweithio'r gwahoddau, cofyddiwch. Ac rwyf wedi gweld i gweithio'r gwahoddau yn gweithio, a os yw gwahoddau, yn cael ei fathau gyda'r gyffredinol. Felly, oeddwn i, bod y gwahoddau yn gweithio'r gwahoddau yn adeiladau i'r 12 gwahoddau a chatwch doedd yn gweithio'r gwahoddau a chawd i'n gwneud o'r gwahoddau yma yw gwahoddau, fel yna nid yn ceisio. Mae'r ffordd yw yw'r yw Beth, yw'r wneud. yw'n gweithio'n gweithio. Rydw i ddim yn gweld Cwcunwyr. Felly, ymlaen i ddim yn gweithio'n gweithio, gwnewch yn gyntaf Ymlaen i'n Myry Hynnerll. Mae gyda chi'n gweithio i ddim yn gweithio. Rydw i'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Rydw i ddim yn gweithio'r gweithio, ond rydym wedi gweld amdano, ac rydyn ni wedi gweld ar y cyfyrdd ymlaen, mae'n gweithio'n gwneudio'n gweithio, a'n gweithio'n gwybod nhw'n gweithio'n bwyddol i chi. O'i hwnnw i'ch hoffi'n gyfennyddio, mae'n Myra. Ac rwy'n cael ei wneud, rwy'n cael ei gwybod hynny. I gyd yn ôl i'n chcielf. Rwy'n cydwyr eich bod yn y gydwyr, yn y cydwyr i'r cyffreddau i'r dod, yma gael yma, gwybodaeth, mae'n gweithio'r ymddangos yn fwy o'r gweithio. I'm one of these that knew about L interest MBC but I didn't know the absolute details, but I knew it was bad enough. I knew I was meeting when he wanted me to start, the fact that it was the fact that they just, basically she and Brady had taken innocent children virtually for pleasure, killed them and buried them on the moars. And she's a woman there bearing Ie ddim yn fwy o'ch eu bod nhw'n meddwl i chi i'w ddiwyddiadau a phobl yn fy ngwylfaenol. Ie ddim yn meddwl i chi'n mynd arddangos, ac mae'n meddwl i chi wedi gwybod fe yw'r ddweud. Mae'r meddwl i chi'n meddwl i chi, ac mae'n meddwl i chi ddiwyddiadau i chi ffyrdd. Mae'r meddwl i chi ddim yn meddwl i chi, bobl efallai mwy o'r meddwl i chi mewn chyllun newydd. Mae'r oeddwn ni'n gwiriaeth i'r adnod yn yma, ac mae'r carol Hanson, ond rwy'r drosbwynt yn ymddiad â'r bleidio ac i'r carol yma'r bydd. Mae'r myra ddau i'r cyfwyr, mae'r byd yn ymddir i'r ymddiad. Mae'r byd yn ymddir i'r cyfwyr yn ymddiad. Mae'r byd yn ymddiad i'r byd, ac mae'r byd yn ymddiad i'r byd, mae'r byd yn ymddiad i'r byd. Mae'r byd yn ymddiad yn ymddiad yn ymddiad, penodd 3 ft-6. So, mae'r ddau'r oedd yn gweithio, mae gydag yn cymryd yn cyd-dweithio, ac mae'r cwerthyn ni'n ddau. Mae'r ddau'r ddau yn cymryd, ac mae'r ddau'r ddau'r ddau'r cymryd. A gweld rwy'n cael ei wneud, ac mae'r ddau'r ddau'r ddau'r ddau'r ddau'r ddau, mae'n ddau o'r ddau'r ddau, allwn gwaith sy'n cael ei wneud. Mae'r cyfnod o Lywodraeth o'r cyfnod oherwydd yn mynd i gyntaf llawer. Mae cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod, awl o'r cyfnod o rhaid i'w amdano, a chyfwyrd hyn i ddiweddolol i ddim wneud. Mae'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod. A dy命 sy'n byw o'r bwysig yn cael ei wneud, o'n amser bwysig yn ôl nhw'n gydweithio a'r llun i'r byth. Y cwylwch yn ddigon, o'ch ddigon? Mae'n ddigon, rwy'n ei ddigon, rwy'n ddigon. Mae'n ddigon, o'ch ddigon, o'r ddigon, o'r ddigon, o'r ddigon. Os ond y pwysig yn i gael cyffredinol, mae'n fwy o'r poblig yn y ddweud. Mae'n ddigon, o'ch ddigon, o'ch ddigon, o'r ddigon, o'r ddigon. I don't think I'd have had an answer at that point because it's not for me to judge. And that was it. So she said, interesting, interesting, I'd like to hear more. I said, well, I might be coming back. I don't know, the governor's got ideas for me to come and do a bit of work here. And that was it. Then I went back and I was in Grendan. It was about two or three weeks later and the governor called me to his office and he said there's someone on the phone who would like to speak to you. A governor, Tim Newell, and it was the governor at Grendan who they got. They know each other. Well, Chris Ellis, who said, it's not me that wants to speak to this someone else and they put myra on and myra said, yeah, I was really interested in meeting. I was really interested in what you had to say and the way that you were presenting yourself and I need help. I need some counseling and support. Would you be in agreement to come down and and do that? If it could be arranged? And I sort of said, yeah, I'm happy enough to do that, but I don't quite know how it's going to work. And so, well, I think the governors are going to talk about it with you anyway, but I just wanted you to say that I was impressed by what I heard and I think you would be able to get me through this next difficult period. And I said, well, in that case, fine, I'll do what I can. And that was it. Conversation over. Then I was left with a dilemma because I couldn't carry on. I was working at Grendan as a uniformed officer. I couldn't be given time during my work time to travel 110, 150 miles down to Kent and 115, 110 miles back. I had to do it on my time off my weekends and the governor had agreed that if I was going to do that, it would have to be in my time off. He would sanction it and get the home office to sanction me going down there. He said I would welcome it, Joe. Everything was above board. Everything was above board then. So what was your job then to get information to understand who she was, what she'd done? I mean, basically, I didn't know what my job was going to be. I mean, she said to counsel me, but actually it was more to do with providing emotional support, psychological support. Clearly there have been conversations, and to this day I don't know what conversations about me between the governor in Cocomwood and Tim, who doesn't live far away from here, by the way, who was the governor in Grendan. I was never a party to anything that was said in between. Tim did say he would have to seek permission from the home office, so would I, which was given. Chris had already agreed the governor in Cocomwood. She would accept me. So, yeah, it was all set up, but it was, if you think about the things I've just said to you, and there was more to it than that. I was just a uniform prison officer. I got no rank. I was qualified as a counselor at diploma level, and I got an online psychology degree, which wasn't worth shite. But I was doing the work I thought fairly well with prisoners. So maybe that was my qualification. But I was a prison officer in uniform going down in civis into a female establishment in Kent and working with female prisoners. So what was it like when she started working with her? It was fine, because I took her the same way as I'd taken everybody else. We did agree, we agreed right from the off. I said, right, here's the deal. Here's the compact, if you like, to call it that. If you're going to talk to me, first of all, I'm going to want honesty. This goes without saying. If you're going to talk to me, it's no good if you're going to not be honest with me. If you're going to talk to me, it can't be confidential, right? I should question that. What do you mean? What do you mean it can't be confidential? In terms of if you're talking to me, you're supported by another four or five people. I'll be part of that and I will share it with significant others in your life. That's the way I've worked with every prison I've come across. If they've got a mum or a dad or a brother or a sister who are interested in them, and they're going to tell me one thing and them another and set up for failure, that's not going to happen. That you have, as it was? Yeah, she had a partner at the time, because she was in a lesbian relationship. A partner was visiting regularly at that time, and she had visits from David Aster, who was the main supporter financially, and occasionally from Lord Longford and from Peter Timms, who was ex-prism governor, Reverend Peter Timms. Was she ever still speaking to Ian Brady? No, she stopped speaking to Ian Brady way back, and the last contact with him was, I can't remember now, but Brady wasn't on the scene at all, there was no communication with him whatsoever. Most of what she learned, she learned through the media what was happening with him. So, point being, what she told me was never going to be absolutely confidential, and I said, if you carry on and you work through your bits and you're honest about it, and you find wherever you want to be, then that's fine, I can support all of that, and I did. So, but we only had, somewhere in a region of 10 or 12, what could loosely be called counselling sessions, and I mean loosely because they were interrupted, we were in the governor's office, so there was phones going, there was noise outside, twice we had a chat in the hospital unit, but it was all done wherever we could meet, and then what happened was the papers kicked off, they all went ballistic. It was on the front page of the sun? I was exposed, yeah, yeah. As soon as that happened, basically I thought, that's it, game over. Somebody, I was working with Myra in the prison, with the governor's, with other key staff, with Myra's personal officer, producing reports for the parole board, and somebody, and to this day we don't know who it was, took Myra report and sold it to the Sun newspaper. And the front of the sun, it says Myra freedom scandal, she's ground for release. So you were getting the blame for trying to help her to get her release? Clever headline, yeah. I mean, that paper sold out. I struggled to get a copy of that because when I went, because the governor called me and saturday morning it was, quite early and said, Joe, are you sitting down? And I said, why should I be? And she said, the shit's it, the fan was her words. And I said, what do you mean? And she said, you need to get a copy of the Sun newspaper. It's all gone pear shaped. Somebody's given you a report, they've got it out there. You need to see the headline. And I said, oh, okay. She said, just go off and have a read of the report and then give me a call later. Myra sends a regards her love and hopes that Wendy and Sophie are going to be okay through it, which was a nice touch. But I went down to get the paper. I couldn't get one. I went to the garage, went into town and struggled to get one. I don't even know where I got that copy from. So I went through a couple of hours of what's been fucking written. And then I got it and I read it and thought, what? You know, she's going nowhere, but that's what they produced. Who do you think sold the story? Who do I think? I don't know. Could it have been her? No, she'd never have done that, never. Could it have been a partner? No, the people that were close to her in a circle because she had a very tight in a circle. None of them would have done that. But you don't know because back in the day, you're talking what, 16, 17 years ago, this was? What's the day? You're talking like 50 grand, 100 grand for a front page story. I don't think anybody that knew David Aster would be sure to 50 grand if they really wanted 50 grand. Okay, I did get it. But anyway, I was paid. My salary was paid. But most of the people that supported Myra were not in there for money, the close circle. However, I don't know whether orderly officer, anybody in there that had keys to the gate officer. Did she ever talk about the muddles and stuff? Did she ever open up about everything that she had done? And what was that like first hearing that? It was tough. It was tough because basically she'd not opened up at all much during her sentence as much as I was pushing her to open up. So it was tough for her because I wasn't going to leave any stone unturned. She wanted me to challenge so I was going to challenge certain things. But it was tough for me to hear as well because just by coincidence, and again, it's mentioned in the book, I sort of hit the killing of Leslie and Downey coming up to the Christmas period. When everybody's getting ready for Christmas festivities and everybody's getting excited about Christmas for their children, I'm sat talking to Myra in the governor's office about Leslie's killing and about Leslie's murder. And it was bloody difficult to sit there and to sit through that. We did something in the beginning just as a by the by where initially the first two sessions we talked with the light out. She said I want to speak but I want to speak with a light out. And I said why would you want to do that? She said because at this moment in time, the fluorescent light hurts my eyes, but also I want to be able to talk without you reading what's happening on my face. And I said why would you want to do that? Anyway, I said okay, so we'll do it. It was getting dusk, so we spoke in the darkness, but not complete darkness, you know. And I said to her afterwards, it was a couple of months after, I said what was all that about? Why would we really have to go through that fast just for a couple of interviews? And she said I just did something I wanted to do. I didn't want to see your reaction. I said what sort of reaction were you expecting you're going to see? Shock horror, disgust, whatever, whatever you want, whatever you want to look at it. Did she have an attraction for you? I said no. Well attraction in terms of Did she like you? She liked me as a friend. She called me a rock in one letter and she was always pleased to see me. But she said that in those first two sessions and we hadn't got into anything heavy. She said but I was going to mention the fact that I was parted to killing these children and what I'd done certainly with Keith Bennett in a part in that. And the most important one to her was Pauline Reid was the first one because she told everybody that Brady had basically instigated the lot and that he was the one who'd chosen her for the killing when he wasn't. It was her. But what she'd done it for was mainly because she wanted to just speak and then my reaction was judged by the way I'd reacted subsequently. And I said what do you see in my eyes now? You know what do you really expect? She said what have you seen since? You've told me this and now we've gone through Leslie and Downey's killing which by the way when I finished I then got to get in my car and drive all the way back home. And that was sometimes very difficult. At Grendan I had therapy meetings followed by staff feedback and an element of supervision. With Myra I had what she'd given me, driving, thinking about it and then I'd wait until I got back to work maybe three or four days later before I could speak to Dr Jack Wright who was a psychiatrist at Grendan and offload. So I carried it and I do remember that night of when we went through Leslie Ann's murder, driving back and it was cold, it was winter, driving back up the motorway, I was looking into the distance, my mind was on the moors, it was awful. I was thinking of kids getting ready and families getting ready and not having your child on a Christmas day. How long did their killing spree last over? It went over a period of four years so it was finished in 66 so it started in 62, 63 I think. That was five carins from the age of 17, six years old, eight years old. There was gaps before them you see, gaps between each. Could there have been more? Could there have been more? I think there could. I mean because it ended the way it did. I mean it ended because Brady effectively lost the plot, he stopped being careful and the Edward Evans killing was a mess, an absolute mess. What happened? Well he got Edward Evans to come back to the house, he'd met him out in Manchester. There was rumours that around that Edward had been, you know, was gay and that Brady had been frequenting the gay places and that he himself was gay. But effectively he'd brought Edward Evans back to the house ostensibly for a game of cards and then bludgeoned in with an axe. But before he did it, he'd actually got Myra's brother-in-law David Smith to come over and witness what he was doing. Myra's part in all of this because she said she wasn't around at the time she was in the kitchen and stuff like that. How true is that though? Out true? Yeah, was it true or was she also a liar? She stuck to me with the fact that she was nothing at all to do with that. She knew what was going on, she could crust it, she could avert it, you know. And well she did, she admitted to hearing what was going on but as far as they were concerned and then entering at a point when it was too late. But David Smith was traumatised by, I mean you can imagine, can't you? So what I'm saying is where it went wrong was Brady did what he did thinking somehow along the line Smith was going to go along with it who actually went back and told Myra's sister who then phoned the police. And so next day he was arrested. So this cleverly controlled murders that they had in the past with the burying of the bodies making sure they've checked her all, still wearing the same stuff and there was no evidence left around, cleaning the van, all of that had gone. It was getting Edward's body out of that house. You know, it was best they could wrapping him up and putting him out of the way. Did you ever ask her was that more? Because of you? No, I did. I said, you know, during the course of it, I said, were you involved in any more? And no, said I wasn't involved in any more. Could Brady have been involved in any more? Did you ever speak to him? Sorry? Did you ever speak to Brady? No, I tried. I wrote to him on three occasions. First occasion was just a hi. I'm Joe Chapman. You probably know I'm councillor in Myra. It would be great to have a chat with you. I left it, nothing. Don't even know whether it got to him. The second one, I had a little bit more information. So I'd written to him saying, listen, Myra has told me what's been her part in it. It's unraveling. I'd like to get your side on it. I'm starting to see some of the things that you've alluded to. I'd like to chat to you about that. And here, by the way, is a letter in Myra's handwriting that she'd given me to give me authority to sort of speak to you. But she doesn't want to speak to you. Did she ever break down crying or anything? Or was it just no one knows? Yeah, on the Leslie Undowney one she did. Because that was more to do with the fact that I think she'd started over the years. She'd started to home into the person she used to be. And she used to be, without doubt, when you listen to people that knew her as a child, she was good with children. She was trusted.