 recording is on everybody welcome back on the channel well today we will have a smart talk with Luke so how will you look doing good how are you today yeah I'm fine too I'm fine yeah so let's have some Monero fun yeah exactly exactly let's you know make the point for Monero and show the Bitcoin maximalist that I think we we have some points to make right sure let's do it all right so yeah I know that you kind of describe yourself as Monero maximalist so why and what are the most important points for you for Monero well I think to understand I mean first you got to talk about the term maximalist right when I say that like when a Bitcoin max he calls himself a maximalist what does that mean usually it means that you're more of a one-chain person you have the idea that most of the cryptocurrencies out there firstly they're not even currencies but secondly most of them are just I mean they're really crowdfunding mechanisms for businesses right a lot of times and the the original lightning in a bottle of Bitcoin is this idea of digital scarcity and a scheme with mining and all of these things that created a system that didn't require a central intermediary okay that could still have digital scarcity right that that's the whole point so a Bitcoin maximalist is usually someone who says well listen all these people making all these different coins they're wasting their time because what they should be doing is they should be building on the chain that we already have like the Bitcoin network let's say it's you know a little below a trillion dollars market cap it would be much wiser for people to build software on top of Bitcoin right because it's already this pre-existing method or this pre-existing system like it has it has some smart contracting abilities that are minimalistic compared to something like Ethereum but the reason that well one of the main reasons that people don't build on top of Bitcoin or try to use one network is because you can make money not doing that right you can make your own coin you can pump and dump it you can do things like that so you know Bitcoin maxis are fundamentally like they're suspicious of all altcoins Monero included because they just put it in there you know with the same category but as to the difference between Bitcoin and Monero like why why should anyone how is Bitcoin not or how is Monero not just some like crappy scam coin well firstly Bitcoin or Monero kind of preserves the original Bitcoin ethos I think it it has it still has all the decentralization of the original Bitcoin project right there is narrow team but there's no CEO there's not like it there's not like it there's not a pre-mine or anything like that right so it has all the news ideals of Bitcoin but it also does basically everything that Bitcoin does wrong right so the obvious one that most people know about is of course privacy right so privacy is something that again at the beginning people just think oh it's like for weirdos or criminals or something like that but privacy is a necessary function of a currency and in fact even the fiat system has privacy built into it you know cash is private you know even credit cards they're private and they're not private between you and Mastercard they know that you're spending but your next-door neighbor doesn't know what you're spending and that is not interesting so you mean that the current system that you are using right now is more private than Bitcoin oh a hundred percent definitely because Bitcoin I mean when you spend something on a Visa card it does not go to some it doesn't go to visa.com where anyone can view it however that is what Bitcoin does it you put you can look in any block explorer it's public information that it's out there and I know at least in the United States in this almost is trivial but recently a court ruled of course that the federal government doesn't need a you know any kind of warrant to monitor your Bitcoin transactions because they're literally right there on the internet right whereas that is the case in the fiat system like if you're a criminal who's using American dollars and you're hiding things in a bank the government at least needs a warrant you know they don't automatically know what you're doing whereas that is the case in Bitcoin that's substantially worse. Yeah very very good point you know and something we don't usually think about but yes actually Bitcoin is less private than the current system. Yeah I think I'll go ahead and say you know Bitcoin maximalists will know this like they know that this is happening they know the bitcoins out there and you know it's very unprivate but in their minds I think their idea is they want to have this dumb base layer that transacts value it preserves digital scarcity and it doesn't really do anything else like privacy that's a feature that we can add on you know with some layer over the lightning network or something like that that is their way of thinking about that and it's a kind of it's kind of building your house on the sand you know in the old the old parable of Jesus where you know Bitcoin fundamentally it's they put it in terms of being a simple technology but it really can't do the most basic thing that money does and instead Bitcoin in order to be functional you have to use it through all of these application layers whereas Monero you know you can actually just it works how you expect you don't a lot of people think the Monero because it's like this privacy coin or hackers oh man all these people who know about technology use it no it's actually substantially easier to use the bit than Bitcoin because you don't have to jump through all of these hoops to preserve basic privacy yeah so you mean like the importance of layer one right like because they are building on top of layer two maybe it should be layer three they are for one day you know so yeah okay yeah and I will say you know I'm not against having Bitcoin I think in fact one realistic thing about the world is that there are many times where the worst technological standard becomes the standard just because it's first there or it's more popular and that could be the case unfortunately with Bitcoin and Monero it might be the Bitcoin just has so much momentum behind it that and you know most people in the cryptocurrency sphere they don't they don't know what's going on it might be the people keep going on to it you know and you know oh Monero I don't need that but I think one thing that recent events have shown we've had a lot of things happen just in the past month that show the ridiculousness of Bitcoin in privacy and of course we're mentioning privacy now but we should say Monero does everything else right to but in the state of privacy right so you know you had the Canadian government basically try to shut down people's bank accounts and when people started using cryptocurrency well guess what Bitcoin is just as easy or easily monitorable and if you're a normal person who doesn't give a crap about Bitcoin you just want to cash it out and you can only know how to use and know your customer exchange well that's basically just the same thing as you you know they they can stop your Bitcoin in the same way that they can stop your Canadian dollars right so and mind you these people who have who are having their accounts shut down like this this isn't drug dealers this isn't like criminals you know these are pretty much normal people and I in the past five years you have just seen this massive need for normal people to have private currency it is not just it's not a niche thing you're not a weirdo if you need it we we have really just never had an environment like Bitcoin where you have a currency that can be monitored like it so we're not even used to it being like a thing of possibility it's much more absurd than people realize yeah and when you say the environment with the inflation and everything I mean when Satoshi he created Bitcoin you know back in 2008 2009 well the environment was extremely different from now but his creation was for the environment that we have right now I mean the US government I think they are they have a budget of something like 80 billion dollars for a new agency that is going to spy on cryptocurrency something like that so imagine what will happen you know for Bitcoin when they will deploy all their resources you know so that Bitcoin maxis will have is that oh eventually we will have this in Bitcoin we will have lightning network and you know maybe a little bit more to make it private but the reality is we need that now and there's really no reason to have a base layer that does not have privacy built into it especially you know Monero doesn't have this yet but I kind of expect that they will add it obviously in the next 10 years or so but some kind of generalized your knowledge proofs instead of you know we use ring signatures now which suffice but you know if you can use zero knowledge proofs for transactions they're not even like ring signatures where they're a little larger this is something that theoretically you could build Bitcoin with like you don't have you don't even have to do this this other stuff but the reality is you know a lot of people in Bitcoin they're just kind of stuck with the well Bitcoin's gonna stay the way it is it's stable and we don't we'll just build stuff on top of it and you know that I find that very suspect for many reasons yeah for me as well you know this narrative saying that like there is Bitcoin and nothing else matters you know I personally I cannot understand you know because I think at least there will be a duple between Bitcoin and Monero that for me now it's a possibility that Monero is going to take the lead at one point you know I remember it was John McAfee you know he has this video on the internet where he says that Bitcoin is is going to be useless and Monero is going to become the only cryptocurrency you know because at one point nobody will want to own Bitcoin and I remember you know it was like one or two years ago when I first heard this and at first it was it was unbelievable for me you know I was like well he's crazy to think that but right now I'm like well I think he's white you know I mean I think he was white and he's still and that at the end of the day it's very possible that nobody's going to want to own Bitcoin yeah well I think I am less so I'm less against big well okay I don't want to say I'm less against Bitcoin but I'll say it this way holding Bitcoin is not a big issue it's easy to hold Bitcoin that's not a problem the issue is using it because you know if you just have some Bitcoin at some address that's not tied to your name that's no big problem right but in the process of using it that is when the privacy issues arise that is when you know the transaction fee issues arise and all of this kind whoa connection do you hear me oh did you lose me for a second yeah yeah yeah okay we're back okay so you know back in the day when you had everything good yeah okay I had kind of a bi-metallic standard with gold and silver a lot of the times you know gold was used to hold on to and you wouldn't transact with that because there were many disadvantages you'd use silver for that and that's how I view Bitcoin and Monero right now but again the ideal would be people using the technology that you know is more useful for exchange and that is Monero well now that no go ahead yes just on this point I don't especially agree you know because when you say that you can store your value on Bitcoin and then just I mean it's not a problem if you store your value on Bitcoin and maybe you can the problem is only when you want to use it well let's say you have a certain amount on Bitcoin right and at one point you want to just use a part of this amount not everything just a part of this do you see how complicated it becomes because the moment you spend a huge EXO right anybody will see the whole amount that you have you know so I mean if you truly want to you know to to keep certain information for yourself it truly becomes like this is hell you know if you want to just spend a part of this how do you do that you know yeah I think you're definitely right I think it is hell and I think it is stupid and we shouldn't be doing it but I'm just saying realistically speaking I mean we're talking about the cryptocurrency sphere right now is full of people who don't even who think they own Bitcoin or Monero but they don't really because they own it on some custodial exchange okay most people out there do not even understand what the technology they're using and I think realistically speaking I see that Bitcoin is it I mean it's gonna continue I expect it to continue and I do hope I'm not against the the layer two thing like I hope those people have a lot of success in making Bitcoin better but I would prefer if the solutions were solved at the ground level that that's more of my view there's no reason for Bitcoin to have to be as open as it is other than mind you there there is a raw conservatism in Bitcoin where they they're just like listen we're not gonna add something like you know recently they added Schnorr signatures which have existed for the entire you know history of Bitcoin right but they you know they were just though these haven't been vetted by the real world yet so we're not gonna add them to Bitcoin yet so it's only been 10 years later that they're like okay they've been around enough we'll add them we trust them you know and that is kind of the conservatism in Bitcoin and I definitely understand that but definitely for individual people using Bitcoin I mean if I it would be a bad thing for me to tell people to transact with Bitcoin right now because there are so many complications they have to deal with in maintaining privacy that using Monero is just the better option for better or for worse and hey I hope Bitcoin works out I just don't necessarily think that it's gonna be as clean as people expect it to be yeah yeah and I want at one point you said Monero does privacy right but beyond that he does he does also everything right so what beyond privacy does Monero do so well well Bitcoin has a couple of problems within it I mean there are two main ones I think one is the issue of whether or not the system will continue as Bitcoin having continues and continues right so that is when miners get absolutely no mining reward will they still mine and I think of course mining will end in Bitcoin sometime in the next century it might be later in the next century I'm not quite sure but I don't think that there I've never seen enough cryptography or game theory to argue that Bitcoin can actually continue working on raw transaction fees okay so Monero of course solves this by having tail emission and Monero is actually gonna go into tail emission sometime soon and and that is just constantly providing an incentive for miners to mine right whereas in Bitcoin I mean if you do the math okay you can do the math like on a piece of paper because it's really easy when it comes to Bitcoin so if you ask right at the top like what how many transactions can Bitcoin fit into a block so there's a block made every 10 minutes and if you take the absolute most sympathetic to Bitcoin view of it you can process around you know six transactions per second maximum so that means you know 600 per minute that means 6,000 every 10 minutes right so so 6,000 put that in one box in your head so another number to realize is right now so Bitcoin mining we expect it to scale up in the future we expect there to be more people mining Bitcoin right I think everyone agrees on that and we kind of need that as the computing power in the world increases you don't want to have some party jump onto the scene with enough power to do a 51% attack right so you you expect the the returns to big you know how much Bitcoin miners are paid per block to increase over time so right now if you mine a Bitcoin block you get around a quarter of a million dollars okay so let's say we go to the future and in the future let's be highly sympathetic to Bitcoin okay let's say that it they only require a quarter of a million dollars to be incentivized to you know mine Bitcoin let's say that's enough now in real life it would probably be a hundred times that much but let's say a quarter of a million dollars I'm going to pull up my calculator so a quarter of a million dollars and then divide that by the 6,000 transactions that Bitcoin does in a block so if you do that you will get a number around 41 dollars and 67 cents now what is that that is the average Bitcoin transaction fee okay at the end of this now this is me as this is me as being sympathetic as possible okay this is assuming that mining costs are not going to increase in reality they will be up by you know if they're up by 10 times it's not going to be 40 dollars to transact Bitcoin it's going to be $400 to transact Bitcoin I expect it to be even higher than that so what this means is that you know how are you going to come up with the transaction piece to maintain the system if Bitcoin continues as it is right that means everyone will have to use the Lightning Network everyone has to use Layer 2 and the core functionality of Bitcoin is now something only for very rich people if transaction fees get to thousands of dollars you're not going to be using Bitcoin you're going to be using the Lightning Network and you better hope that it be absolutely like pure and immaculate and there's no decentralization problems there's no you know any it has to be perfect hermetically sealed and at that point you're not using Bitcoin you're using like all of these other applications and theoretically Bitcoins at the bottom and you know the problem that I have with the Layer 2 solutions just in general is the fact that if your currency only does one thing like Bitcoin where it secures value and nothing else what that means is when you have a worldwide currency or what a worldwide financial system based on top of it and governments that are making laws about it and you have the Lightning Network you have all these other things that can be regulated it's pretty easy for a government to come in and say okay here's what we're going to do software update everyone it's now mandatory instead of using the Bitcoin protocol we're gonna use the Bitcoin plus protocol and we're gonna say that you know this is like Bitcoin but we can print Bitcoin or something like that when you're becoming reliant on Layer 2 that's the kind of stuff that happens right and when you when you look at the transaction fee problem it's very obvious that Bitcoin is not going to it's not gonna work you have to put things on top of it for it to work and that is another attack factor what should you say is crazy you know because this is exactly what is I mean there is someone who is trying to do that but it's not even going coming from the government you know it's coming from the Bitcoin community so they are working right now you know someone has had an idea of creating something like they call Bitcoin pool so the idea is that due to the fact that there was a lack of liquidity of Bitcoin on because of the fact you know for the Lightning network it's there is not enough Bitcoin on the Layer 2 so they want to create something they call a Bitcoin pool where basically several people own UTXOs and then they can exchange it easily because there are more people to own it you know yeah so that's crazy right now I'm trying to to look at the name of the person who did that but that's crazy okay yeah that's interesting I I was saying that as if I expected to be some dystopian fantasy in 50 years that people look back and say is right but if something like that is already happening that's and I want to talk a little bit about Bitcoin in the real world just I don't know if this is the direction when you go in but one thing that I looked into recently yeah is Bitcoin in the one country where it's accepted as legal tender right so El Salvador which which I think is still great news like El Salvador is using Bitcoin as legal tender right so just by itself that hey that's good on paper El Salvadorians Salvadorians whatever they won't have to pay capital gains tax on their car okay that's nice that that's nice but you know if you went back in time and told Satoshi what form this would be in I think he would have never created Bitcoin because you know firstly how Bitcoin got there there was this company called strike which you know was very close to the the Salvadorian president and kind of lobbied him to do it and I heard things about strike that were not very good sounding right because it's this lightning network thing which of course is know your customer excuse me know your customer anti-money laundering things and uses lightning network I think they even have non custodial wallets all this kind of bad stuff and I was like oh that's that's a little suspicious but then even worse than that the Salvadorian government actually I don't know if you know this but they actually created their own wallet wallet quote on Bitcoin wallet that they actually gave money they told people if you use this you get $20 free and Bitcoin okay and what happens people get this this proprietary software that they run on their phone it's a government app no one can look at the source code right the first thing it does is ask them to give your ID your government ID your address take a picture of yourself everything like that and this now is Bitcoin and mind you you get the $20 and you can't actually cash it out it's not really your money you have to spend it I mean it's like a you have to spend it on something else or something like that it's not and of course it's a custodial wallet right so the government of El Salvador I mean this is a disaster this is the exact opposite of what Bitcoin is about it's about self-custodianship of your own money and freedom and anonymity and all of these things and Bitcoin is now rolling out on the world stage representing absolutely the opposite of all of that and this is just a disaster and for anyone to you know sure you use Bitcoin the right way in El Salvador and that's fantastic but this is a great example of how manipulatable the system is and how a lot of people unfortunately who don't know any better are just going along with oh wow this is great oh man so yeah I mean that's it that's that's a whole thing you know that right now I mean the system is completely changing and Bitcoin it has lost all the things that made it a cryptocurrency and the consequence now I think is that if we don't like do the point for Monero I mean the the the world cryptocurrency thing is going to vanish you know because the goal the original goal of Satoshi was to to change the society and right now Bitcoin is not doing that you know and that's why Monero in the future you know it's going to to to take off and become more and more the true and only cryptocurrency Bitcoin is it's going to become I think a financial asset you know yeah yeah and you if you look at people nowadays I mean one of the big ones now is uh hold on let me turn something with my screen here but one of the big guys nowadays in Bitcoin is Michael Saylor which I guess you know people know about and I remember you know first I I heard some things about Saylor and I saw some videos of his and I was like okay they're interesting they're getting normal people and the cryptocurrency and stuff like that but I remember watching his interview with Tucker Carlson which was probably the stupidest thing I'm most embarrassing and like most anti-Bitcoin thing I've ever seen in my life because the guy gets on and well my theory actually which I think there's evidence of this is that Michael Saylor actually doesn't even have custodianship over his own Bitcoin like he is one of these boomers who thinks of it as basically an index fund and he will drop drop the names of decentralization and you know the peer-to-peer and crap like that actually very little him he very I mean he's mostly a number go up guy who's talking about digital scarcity but really there's been this new there's a new Bitcoin or there's the 2020 Bitcoin or where it's someone who cares a lot about numbers and you think of Bitcoin as being kind of like an asset or like something equivalent to stocks it's like stocks but better you put money in it and it goes up and like that's the point of it and people are forgetting about the whole you know yes you can make money from cryptocurrency like when you have digital scarcity and you are an early adopter by definition you will be making lots of returns but that is not the reason that it exists and it does if you get to the point where everyone who is using Bitcoin is using an ID and is directly monitored by the government without needing a warrant and has their identity tied to it and has five different cryptocurrency platforms that can deep platform them at any point you're not using Bitcoin you're not using anything reminiscent of cryptocurrency and a lot of people get it twisted they think that because they have an account at some site that's denominated in Bitcoin that that means they own it and in reality if you don't have a private wallet you own nothing that's how it is and a lot of people don't know that know that yeah I mean your sentence the 2020 Bitcoin I like it yeah yeah I mean that's something you know exactly there are so many people that are joining Bitcoin just for the gains just for this and they only know about the numbers it goes up it goes up and yes exactly for them it is a financial asset and I think that in the coming years when I was going to emerge I think it will have much more gains than than Bitcoin but that's not the point you know the point is to truly have the cryptocurrency and give the freedom back to the people I think some people have this idea that well we have to tell normies out there that you can make money on Bitcoin or you can make money in cryptocurrency otherwise they're not going to be interested but that is not the case like these technologies if you understand what they're really for and that is transacting value without an intermediary that is something fun that sounds boring that sounds dry but that is actually one of the greatest things that could ever happen to mankind right if a normal person understood the benefits of that it would be so fantastic right so if someone wants to send you Monero they can just send you Monero right whereas let's say you have a put you know someone wants to oh I want to donate to Kevin let me go to his PayPal well your PayPal is tied to your bank which is tied to you know also your Mastercard or Visa card you might use on PayPal which is tied to you know some other payment processor you might have Stripe in there or other things and it's tied to someone all of these are different platforms that doesn't just mean software bloat things you don't need to try you know parties you do not need to transact but parties where the government can make requests of them they you can be deplatformed I mean PayPal is a good example of a platform that pretty routinely will ban people and banks are kind of the same way in that they are placed vectors of attack and it's it's just a totally liberating thing that anyone right now could start something like a BTC pay server which also can process Monero and you can set that up for your business and you can transact with someone in a private way even with Bitcoin like if you self host you know your own BTC pay server every transaction is getting a new address so there's a layer of privacy there too but of course Monero you don't even need that right um either way uh you can be a full custodian of your technology even if you don't necessarily understand how it works and you can build something much greater off of that without having to worry about your bank's policies about you know how you move money around or there's something like that it's it's just something that is inherently valuable and now that things have gotten worse in terms of censorship um this is something that people are thinking more about so yeah with the current events you know with Canada we share you know maybe you want to talk about it because I think that Bitcoin is not it's not like doing what it was supposed to do you know if uh the Canadian trokers if they use Bitcoin I think there are some issues right yeah well of course Bitcoin does what it's supposed to do it can transact value but it comes with a lot of consequences in that again you are broadcasting to the world what the transaction you're doing is right so I mean if you I mean that's a pretty good example that the Canadian trokers are something like that and functionally and here's another issue mind you the goal of cryptocurrency is for to is really to have an economy where people use it okay people want to use Monero they want to use Bitcoin that is the purpose of it the purpose of it is not to get into it sit there for a year or so and then cash out into cash like if my I think of if I own a cryptocurrency I have no I own it because I expect it to be the software that it uses to be useful and I'm not going to trade that for dollars that's just I'm not interested in gains and I'd rather just not pay capital gains that's frankly um so the purpose of the this if you look at cryptocurrency you should really not look at it as a digital object but really software and when you understand it like that this software network is inherently useful for what it does that is something that I I can be involved with and owning it itself if you can use it if you can use Monero right that is I don't need to worry about caching out or caching in or anything like that once I'm invested in it but the problem with people who look at things in terms of I want to make money is they look at bitcoin as a means to more dollars so that means they are using banks they are thinking in terms of oh well I need to know your customer exchange and I need a bitcoin is so hard to use Monero so hard to use oh Monero has been delisted by all these exchanges and the correct response to that is that's good we don't want Monero like Monero is not here to look like an index fund on some kind of exchange the goal is creating an economy that can exist on its own and doesn't need the rest of it and in fact in the case of Monero it is a if you are storing Monero on a centralized exchange not only are you insane and you don't actually own that Monero but it's also you are really harming other Monero users because if you of course this company has your view key they really have your spin key too so they can decrease the anonset of everyone else they can tell which transactions of that person are legitimate or not and therefore get into the ring signatures of other people so I think where money where the people who are thinking about money making get it wrong is that it's not about making us dollars it's about getting cryptocurrency and using it in an economy that is gradually going to emerge that's it yeah that's it because you know I keep saying freedom back to the people and when I say this this is exactly what I mean you know it's about creating a new economy that belongs to the people and where the government they cannot intervene because when you said you said yes if you don't cash out they are not going to to tax you well now they are starting to talk about the capital gains so even if you you don't say you know they are going to come for people to tax people and I think that this question of taxes I don't know what you think about it but me personally you know yeah I know it's a pretty issue and that some people don't like to to bring that but personally I think that the question of taxes you know is central as well because it is the way for governments to keep doing inflation because then if they can increase the taxes on the people then they can can still print money and keep going with inflation you know but I think the the main goal of cryptocurrency is also to to give a new tool for the people to protect against inflation and just also to protect against the over taxation you know right I think we can talk about inflation in a bit but I will say that a lot of people become bears and bulls when you're talking about regulation and again a lot of people are oh my goodness Minera has been delisted by exchanges the world is over I look at regulation now I don't support regulation of cryptocurrency but I can't help but thinking that a lot of it is going to work to our benefit and you probably remember what I said at the very beginning where a lot of alt coins out there they're really just ways of making money they're crowdfunding mechanisms for companies and what regulation does is well really you can only aim regulation at centralized parties it's very if you know the government says that bisque is now illegal it's very difficult to enforce that right because bisque is a peer-to-peer platform transacting in a peer-to-peer way that is fundamentally something that the government until they have nano bots flying around everywhere they cannot enforce cryptocurrency regulation however hurts centralized exchanges it makes things difficult for them it makes it harder for scam coins and things like that so in most cases where I see cryptocurrency regulation again I don't support it but I do feel that it is inevitably going to nudge people in the right direction because the goal you know I'm not they're they're people they call compliance cucks out there I'm not one of those and I'm also not one of those guys who's like yeah the government can't touch me bitcoin man I'm not one of those guys who like wants to talk about buying drugs or something illegal I don't I don't even endorse the illegal behavior um my view is that when you look at the technology you want to make something for which regulation is irrelevant it's if you're if you're worried about regulation if you're worried about censorship if you're worried about spying you're using bad technology you need to make technology that makes what the government says just not matter make it totally unenforceable we in the case of minero we at least want something as good as the money that they print because cash of course already has privacy features that far exceed any non-private cryptocurrency and yes you can dodge taxes with cash yes you can um do illegal things with cash um and that's true of a private currency but we at least want a private currency to be as good as cash that is already existing you know yeah the important point you know that um at least monero does what the current system does you know but uh the thing I think that become maximalist don't realize that the few percentage that beacon is lacking which is privacy fungibility makes a whole difference I mean the details lead to to to crazy things you know when when you think about it like the human gna the difference between human gna and some animals gna it's like less than one percent you know it's like the all zero zero one percent of difference but it makes the whole difference you know and I think between money one become that's it you know they think they have a cryptocurrency that has everything just it's lacking these three percentage and dislike is makes the whole difference I think yeah I do think there's one big similarity between normal people out there and bitcoiners and that is neither of them have ever actually used bitcoin for anything you know the the main problem is that people again what has happened with a lot of bitcoiners is they they bought it sometime you know maybe a couple years ago maybe a long time ago and they sat on it and they got filthy sink and rich in some cases and they think that by virtue of having made money or by virtue of being part of this project that that means some inherent success or that it's going to it's it's going to be what it purports to be and I don't think that's the case and I think you know in so many cases um I mean the the fact I mean we we had the other month what was it like the bitfinex hack was it bitfinex yeah yeah what's that there are so many what do you say was it can you was that you were talking about the the couple that yeah yeah that's it yeah okay I didn't know their names but yeah I mean that's a good example where you know these guys and of course this applies to crime but the surprise applies to everything where you do something a million years ago and every like every step you take is visible right and you know of course that's obvious in crime where you have all these governmental agencies you know following you and you know they can they did all this stuff even with wasabi wallet and stuff to to see where the money is gone but I think people are now as time goes on people will realize more and more how needed this is privacy is for individual people in the same function because you don't want stalkers you don't want other people who are or you know people who could potentially blackmail you or something else to be watching your transactions and no matter how normal you are like if you I mean if you're some lady who's worried about like stalkers following you why would you broadcast all of your transactions to the blockchain right it's insane no one would choose to do that so why are we using a system that has that by default and in fact to avoid it I mean there's really no there's really no set method I mean CoinJoin has its problems you know all these kind of things that people add on to Bitcoin not only are they hard to use in you know not are not only are they just hard to use for any people it's like a big rig of moral to get them done but they actually don't even do what they're supposed to do there are so many things you know to to to say about it you know and another thing about the importance of a layer one as opposed to having a layer two and other services financial services on top of bitcoin in that technically like it's not possible you know because there is a lack of liquidity on the other layers and everything is linked to the velocity of the money so for instance let's say you have like 100 000s bitcoin on the lightning network this is even you know a high number but let's say okay 100 000s well if you have like seven billion people using 100 000s bitcoin do you see the problem I mean there is not enough liquidity and everything is linked to the velocity of the money you know if the money goes very fast hand to hand I mean that might be okay you know if someone holds one bitcoin I mean not one bitcoin but some bitcoin for let's say one day and then they exchange it maybe it's possible but most people they will hold their bitcoin for 20 30 days before they spend it you know when you have money on your wallet you don't spend it right away so there is a technical issue that I mean technically it's it's completely impossible to have enough liquidity for the whole world on another layer so this is not a problem that we have with Monero because it is layer one so there is no link between the liquidity and the number of people using it you know because all the Monero are available on layer one so we don't have this problem you know because the supply is like the world supply can be used for transactions as opposed to bitcoin like it will be 100 000s bitcoin for the whole world so it leads to what they say you know like people who will share the owning of bitcoin through what they call bitcoin pools or something like this like they will share the UTXO and the UTXOs they will belong to several people so I think that not having everything on the layer one is one of the main drawbacks of bitcoin as well you know yeah and one of the reasons that is as well is when bitcoin was created it was established to have particular properties so you want it to be peer-to-peer obviously you want people to be able to use it in a non-custodial way that they have autonomy over their bitcoins and you know many it was totally free software right it's pseudo anonymous at least you know people back in the day there weren't these stocking parties who really tried to follow transactions and stuff like that so functionally it was pseudo anonymous right so bitcoin had all of these traits and the issue with building layers on top of it is that you have to make sure that every layer you build on top is still preserves that decentralized nature that peer-to-peer nature the non-custodial nature all of those things and so really what's happening a lot of bitcoiners will make the argument against something like Monero they'll say something like well listen the issue with Monero is it has this development team and they're still working on things just they're still adding things and there is it's true that there is a level of trust that you have to have that the Monero team is not going to totally screw things up now you you can fork it if they do screw things up but then you know the networks divided less people are using it right so bitcoiners will say well you know one nice thing about bitcoin and its stability is the fact that we don't have to worry about that but that is nonsensical what because what they have to worry about is all of the layers that get on top of bitcoin that do they actually preserve the privacy the pseudo anonymity that the peer-to-peer nature the non-custodial nature and what we've seen already what is the fact that when you have layer twos so on one side let's say the lightning network the lightning network is a layer two and it's you know non-custodial you might argue it's not quite as decentralized there there's some issues with that but you know i'm not against it i think it's it's fine there are some problems but realistically speaking there there's another layer two and that is centralized exchanges um this is what michael sailor says in a good way oh yeah you know coinbase that's a that's a you know that's a layer two and that's a valid thing so what we're already having is that people are gravitating to these things that are easier to use that are worse and they're further away from what bitcoin's supposed to be so you would you say that exchanges they're layer two or layer three maybe uh well i mean if they're using i don't know it's kind of metaphorical anyway i guess you know if you want to say they're using the lightning network then you can say they're built on top of that but i mean you know they're all in the important thing is it's not built into the protocol level so yeah okay yeah sorry i had to get get some no problem yeah so yeah i mean i completely know agree with that without points and i think you know if we make the the point against bitcoin you know it's not like we we won't i mean for me you know it doesn't come from a position of eight bitcoin or something like this you know it's just like i mean it doesn't make any sense to ignore monos that way you know because of the properties that money all has and i think that right now there is this narrative of building a financial asset and people forget about what makes a true cryptocurrency i think they're reasonable listen there are reasonable reasons for people to be skeptical of any cryptocurrency but bitcoin and monero included um there are listen no crypto is perfect right now monero is still under development there are many things they're thinking of adding there are many worries that ring signatures you know you can go back and figure things out as time goes on or you know there there are many liabilities so i think it's a reasonable thing for anyone to say oh i'm not 100 sold on this um you know my position now is that monero so bitcoin is very popular and it has a large network and i think for that reason it is you know worthwhile to hold i don't think that it is a good you know it's obviously not good for transactions and stuff like that whereas monero is and of course i expect i fully expect monero to be significantly improved in the next one two three four five years and get better and better as it is right now i mean realistically speaking i mean we can talk about this if you want no cryptocurrency right now can function as a global currency monero included right um and moneros issue you know it can scale better in the sense that we can have larger blocks and you know we have privacy and stuff like that but still we have not mass no crypto has mastered um you know going worldwide in the sense that we would need a blockchain which is terabytes big right because we have to we have to store all these transactions and other things like that and there are other projects that try to you know minimize that or have some kind of block lattice uh you know instead of a blockchain like there are a lot of problems out there that i don't feel have been fully answered and i think that's understandable um but what i do feel is right now if you want a cryptocurrency that is useful for transactions and can actually do things um i can't recommend bitcoin i can't recommend bitcoin cash or litecoin or all these things monero does everything right and monero stands above all of the other ones i am not one of these guys who just wants to invest in coins because oh i expect them to go up i i would like to have something that is going to be useful and i expect the monero yet network to be you know potentially world-changing in that respect yeah and about the scalability you know there is the gna data storage that is coming and if that comes you know this is a game changer and potentially you know like it would be possible to store like very very large blockchain in tiny spaces so this argument of scalability for monero i think yeah in the coming years we will benefit from that you know yeah i i will also say this um i don't know maybe i don't know maybe you're defending monero uh well okay i'll say this there are some potential i mean let's think realistically what are the chances that bitcoin and monero fail okay that's what you got to think about and i think there are really two possibilities well that three so the third one i'll go and say that's like nuclear war and the internet and everything you know it's destroyed and in that case we have bigger things to worry about right um so ignoring that possibility which you know there is a possibility um i i think there are two things that could happen that would gradually destroy bitcoin and monero um one is that some i think this is pretty unlikely but some basic level of cryptography or hashing or something else that is required for bitcoin or elliptic curve cryptography whatever some form of that is broken now i view that as highly unlikely i mean but it's theoretically a possibility something like that could happen but i i think it's pretty safe to bet against that happening right there have been case you know shaw one was was cracked a while back but you know the the things we have now are orders of magnitude more complex and i mean there's reason to think that they will not be crackable right but that is technically a possibility the other possibility is you know bitcoin and monero are of course uh proof of work cryptocurrencies and there's a lot of fun about proof of work because oh man it's bad for the environment or so i mean it's typical stuff you know you know what it is but realistically speaking there is a possibility that someone develops a way of reaching decentralized consensus without using proof of work so proof of stake purports to already be this i'm sure you know you talk on your channel about this but proof of stake i view as highly suspect but hypothetically speaking it is possible that someone could develop this new game theoretic solution to have proof you know decentralized consensus without proof of work and in that case bitcoin and monero would be dinosauric it would they would just be like look at these old technologies that are using this old you know how wasteful they are suppose we can do it without having mining or something like that i mean this is this is pie you know sky in the pie sky in the pie pie in the sky dreaming but theoretically it is a possibility for us to develop a kind of decentralized consensus now in that case of course you you know you could probably say that uh at least in the case of monero the monero team might be you know oh let's see if we can base monero off of this change that base and in that case that would be nice but theoretically there is that possibility of some new technology coming out that will make cryptocurrency as we know it kind of obsolete i mean the technology you're talking about i mean like the quantum computers it is exactly the definition of that because it can do both you know like you can um you can on the one way stop mining because uh we have seen that there is if the quantum computers comes today it will stop making a beacon mining or possible and the only algorithm that can stand is random mix there there was a reports on this so and the second thing is that quantum computers they can break cryptography you know and when you say that you don't think that it is likely well what do you think about quantum computers do you think that there are true threats and in the coming 10 years five years what do you think about it um i am not familiar with them enough to give an educated view on them i will say there's some aspects of them that i'm skeptical whether i mean it's something like ai my my view of it in that um it's one of those technologies that theoretically based on certain assumptions could make a big impact but i'm not necessarily sold on if it will or the form that it will but sure that can be a worry but i will tell you i'm not i'm not well read on the particular issues of i i have heard that that random mess is quantum resistant in some way um but you know i i don't know about it enough to pontificate about it so okay yeah personally i think it will threat you know for especially for monero because uh oh the connection is uh okay it's back well i think it's uh it's a very it's a threat especially for monero because uh for monero the specificity is about the there is a tiny a certainty about the supply because it is private you know so uh i think you know there will be like a moment in history where we will have a quantum supremacy but monero needs to be quantum resistant before this arrives or before this becomes possible you know because if let's say there are five years a duration like five years in which uh quantum computers were good enough to break monero cryptography but monero was not good enough you know to um to be quantum resistant then there will be like uh always a tiny like uh doubt about the supply because there will be this moment in history where monero was not completely quantum resistant and yet you know the comes so potentially like in in 10 20 years someone will say well there was this moment in history of five years you know where potentially someone had a quantum computers and broke the monero cryptography and made unknown uncertain amount of monero so this is why i think monero needs to be uh quantum resistant in advance yeah well again i i don't know that much about the issue but uh i mean i agree in principle right okay so yeah i mean um yeah so do you want do you still have time or do because we have been talking about for for some time do you have a still some time to to keep going or yeah yeah i can i can still go uh did you want to take a break or something no no it's okay it's okay just asking now okay all right so so yeah i i think yeah we have made you know the point for monero and like we we have talked a lot about bitcoin you know but yeah um personally you know like i don't want to focus too much on bitcoin because i think that if monero has to emerge it will emerge by itself you know like we don't especially need you know to to like to talk bad about bitcoin because we share i know most of our views with bitcoin people but i think like the the slight differences is people overestimate how important it is you know and uh in the coming years i think like the difference between bitcoin and monero will be the same magnitude as the difference between the current system of fiat and bitcoin now i think what do you think about it do you think like the step between the fiat system and bitcoin is as huge as uh the step between the bitcoin and monero or do you think it's uh different um i i think that the issue between bitcoin and monero is what is actually going to work long term um so as i said i i don't know that if the bitcoin network can actually persist in 200 years with the transaction fee problem and you know there are other issues so that's an issue you know for me um and i do kind of feel like bitcoin as high i mean really this is already happening as we've kind of talked about bitcoin is being normalized and applications are building being built on top of it that make it basically an index fund within the fiat currency system um people are not really using it in the way that it's supposed to be used so i i think in the abstract i would say there's a bigger gap between fiat and then crypto including bitcoin and monero but in practice there might you know bitcoin is kind of moving to be more like fiat it's part of that system um it's just oh it's something you invest in on to know your customer exchange more or less as opposed to monero which is still trying to be a self custodian uh digital currency i'll say you said that about you know bitcoin versus you know talking about bitcoin too much i will just say when i say bitcoin a lot of times i mean cryptocurrency including monero i mean realistically speaking up we're talking about the technological innovations that bitcoin created that monero of course maintains and probably maintains them in a pure essence but um either way i i do think that if we move to a harder currency as something used for saving and spending that will fundamentally change the way that people live yeah i mean one thing about the inflationary Keynesian economy right is the fact that saving is not the default or well really saving is something that's difficult because your money is constantly being eaten by inflation right you save a hundred bucks it's going to be less later on right and that's something that everyone kind of understands intuitively so however much we want to say oh save for the future save for your kids save blah blah blah saving is actually kind of a stupid thing if you're doing it in american dollars or any other i mean american dollars are actually probably the best fiat currency all the other ones are even worse actually i say that you never know what's going to happen with the american dollar you know uh especially because the american government is now just saying oh yeah uh all these dollars that russians hold uh they don't count anymore or something funny like that um either way the thing about fiat currency is that it it automatically breeds a consumerist you know economy because it's constantly losing value so the marginal utility you get from spending now as opposed to later is going to be greater you are going to find oh my goodness well i might this hey this 20 dollars isn't going to be worth anything in 10 years so i might as well buy this funko pop or or something in a you know just something silly whereas one transformative thing about bitcoin and manero or any kind of any kind of hard currency frankly is the fact that it being scarce is going to basically cause it to uh you expect it to appreciate in value right so if we have manero and you know you you get let's say in the future you get paid in manero you get that manero and so as time goes on the price of manero is going to be increasing it's going to be more valuable as time goes on as more wealth is being stored within the manero network that is necessarily what happens you can actually say the same thing of gold right if more people are storing money in gold form that in effect means the prices of gold is higher and vice versa right so when you have a hard money saving is some saving is like a really good financial decision to make so if you save a hundred dollars in bitcoin or manero you kind of expect that to be significantly more in five years right it might be astronomically higher um and what that does is it totally changes human behavior in a way that a lot of people don't realize but if you meet you know there there's this old video on youtube that's probably still there from a couple years ago you may have seen it where it's like you know the the number one hobbler and it's like this bitcoiner who lived in a tree house and he just had a bunch of mining rigs and he sold everything he owned to buy you know more cryptocurrency and now that's an insane example um but what that produces in you know more normal people is people who say who don't waste their money on consumption um instead they will say for the future they'll say listen i've put a lot of work into getting this money and i can hold on to it and in the same way that what i've done for the economy is going to increase in value over time the money that i'm receiving is going to increase in value over time so yeah i mean very i mean this is i think this is like the most important thing you know because what it is about it's about the time of the people you know i like to say giving back the freedom to the people but actually it's giving the time back to the people because if you're not able to store what you have done into an asset that keeps value of time it means that to some extent you know the system is robbing your time and this is exactly what we have seen you know like people they have to work for money and on the other end you have a system that can print money so this is why this is so important to have have asset and that can be resilient against the action of governments and i think like with history more and more people will go into monero because in the future when you imagine people with like a high IQ you know they will want monero because it is half asset and because it has privacy so yeah giving back the time to the people i truly think that it is central in everything you know and however hard people say cryptocurrency is they'll always say oh it's oh how do i get monero how do i get bitcoin blah blah blah it's so much easier than the alternative within the economy that exists now because if you want to store your value as it is now usually what you do is you put it in stocks now legally speaking and in terms of you know how you do that that's a very difficult thing to do right so you have to do it you might have some brokerage or all this kind of stuff and that's like a niche thing that's a niche well okay around half of americans have some amount of stocks but it's not like the normal thing you don't just oh i'm gonna i got my paycheck let me put it all in stocks or something like that and a lot of bitcoiners actually this is something that michael sailor says you can give it whatever credence you think it deserves but he does say that really the stock market should be considered the real index of inflation like his view is that if you have this if the stock market goes up 10 percent really that's all inflation that's not necessary or maybe he said the s and p 500 or something like that either way there's not really growth happening in the economy it's really just indexing the inflation and that's the actual inflation rate so if you want to avoid inflation and stay where you are and just tread water well you put money in stocks now stocks are hard to get into there are a bunch of legal things with them and of course however difficult it is to get manero it is much easier to get it and and hold on to it and use it than it is to use stocks stocks are highly illiquid assets right so if you put money in stocks oh man it's it's hard i gotta sell them and then i gotta pay capital gains tax blah blah blah blah well manero which is just digital cash in a world where it's functioning as digital cash is it has all the goods of investing in stocks and in fact probably it's going to make better gains than the stock market right most even even bad cryptocurrencies probably make bigger gains but it also is a highly liquid asset you can send it to your butt if you own them oh and money you can buy something with it you can i don't know so that's the point it's it's an asset that has all the benefits of traditional assets and currency and everything it's it's all bundled into one yeah and i think you know it would play a central role in changing the relation between citizens and and governments you know because yeah governments could barely exist without the fiat system if at all and especially the governments that we're familiar with where you have this massive bureaucratic state that i mean the united states is the best example where it produces nothing it doesn't really do anything compared to how much it consumes and the only way that it can keep where it is is with the fiat money system and the fact that us dollars happen to be the consensus reserve currency which might not be the case even i mean again given what the united states is doing right now to russians just indiscriminately is a pretty good example of why the why the dollar might not be a reserve currency in 10 years even yeah can you can you go further than this you think like in some years like the dollar will lose its status as a reserve currency in the world and then i mean currency will replace it you know um it's hard to i mean if you're if you're asking a fiat currency i don't think that it's minero or bitcoin's time to shine just yet uh in that like in the next 10 years we well i don't know bitcoin's been around for 10 years so you never know what the next 10 years is gonna have you have no clue um minero the same way minero might even be more i mean all these issues of scalability and stuff like that that we've spoken about they might be resolved at some point um so it's hard to say i think that we're moving politically speaking to a more unipolar or multi-polar multi-polar world right where it in the post war era it was kind of just america and there was the brief cold war between it and the soviet union and since then it's been kind of america in the lead with the dollar the dollar has been the reserve currency for the entire period there um but it's hard to say what's going to happen next i don't think the thing like russia and china none of these countries i think are big enough that their currencies are going to be the reserve currency so we might we might go ahead and move to something digital and that could mean i mean right now that probably means bitcoin because that's the one that normie's know about but there is a possibility if there is a decent coin out there and this is you know within the next 20 years or so like minero it might be an option for a kind of reserve currency but with the added addendum that governments i mean no government is necessarily going to like a currency that they can't control um there are big benefits obviously like right now the russians are probably wishing that they were using minero already right yeah because of all the silly i mean it's actually i mean this is kind of irrelevant to what we're talking about it is no it is relevant actually um i've been very surprised about the systematic uh i guess de-platforming of the entire nation of russia and not just the not just the russian government mind you but the people of russia i mean american companies like google and apple and facebook and um github and all of these uh microsoft are all coming out and just like canceling services to the entire nation of russia which i think highlights how stupid it is for people to rely on platforms that are out of their control and fiat currency and digital currencies that are not truly peer-to-peer are examples of that you don't want to be reliant on the fiat currency system and that's true of software as well i mean um you should be using free and open source software any you know if you're using microsoft windows that's an inherent that's an inherent vulnerability right i would consider any c-phrase that touches microsoft windows to be compromised you know um so i i think that uh i think this is telling people why they need to do things right and why if we're moving to a new reserve currency or when new moving to a new standard it really has to be an open and private and encrypted system if it is going to be digital that is basically mandatory and that is something that really all parties can agree to even though right now the united states government is kind of calling the shots and the traditional financial system but really everyone else can sit down and say listen it might be to my disadvantage to adopt a hard currency uh you know in the sense that i can't inflate it for a reserve currency um but there are big benefits for everyone in that mm-hmm and what do you think about a model maybe like the government that will hold a cryptocurrency as a half asset and then um for the people you know like a kind of a fiat but backed by like a digital currency that could be backed by a half asset you know what do you think i mean about that potentially like the government maybe they want to hold a cryptocurrency like monero but maybe they don't want it to be the national currency so you how do you think it can happen you know if i think it's impossible to say i will say that um i mean one one thing that i think in the future we will have so right now one critique that people will make of you know cryptocurrency is the fact that oh my goodness prices are volatile right or oh my goodness bitcoins or are worth so much and it's hard to denominate you know if you if you buy like a sandwich in bitcoin it's you know what like point zero zero something you know it's some weird looking number um and of course all cryptocurrencies bitcoin and monero included are are pretty volatile um not as volatile as people think really but um they're volatile um but one thing that i think has happened over the past couple years is even people who use cryptocurrencies are still denominating most stuff in american dollars or in local currencies and that's not really a problem because obviously cryptocurrency is based on software it's it's inherently digital and it's the easiest thing in the world to just oh let me check the conversion right now people you know a 20 let's say this thing you buy online is 20 dollars well we can easily have this thing check a site and get the amount of monero that that is worth and charge people that amount of monero right so i think for the time being i kind of see familiar things like the american dollars persisting provided there's no hyper inflation but i think that it will probably persist as just a way of denominating value because people find it a little unintuitive um and so i think in that respect i see it persisting but in the future i mean it would be nice for me to hope that whatever physical currencies we have you know they're based on hard money they're based on gold or silver or something like that i don't know how likely that is the nice thing with cryptocurrency is that the revolution governments do not have to consent to it right they don't have to say we are going to adopt this as legal tender it can just be something that gradually happens and gradually increases in usefulness but we've already seen i mean obviously el salvador is accepting bitcoin um as legal tender and i said there are many bad things about what's going on specifically in el salvador but that is something that we could imagine happen in other countries but additionally even in the united states i don't know if you've seen this but there have been many states that have said they're now interested in accepting fees and taxes in cryptocurrencies and not just bitcoin but ethereum maybe manero right so this is a big thing i think this is something that we're now i don't think any state has already done that but they're talking about it i know that the governor of florida has said something like it'd be cool if people could pay like their vehicle registrations no well what's that yeah the connection is not it's back it's okay okay yeah um i don't know if you missed anything important but no yeah so i think we are having um smaller parties and governments already starting to say hey this is interesting stuff and they're probably thinking obviously oh i can make money you know you are since that american dollar is going to be worth zero eventually you are going to be making money by storing what you would otherwise have in dollars in cryptocurrency pretty much by definition so um that's something i think we can expect to have marginal improvements in yeah but i don't even know if they realize what they are doing you know because the moment like it's possible to pay your taxes with a crypto i mean oh it's so okay no it's back yeah the moment it's possible you know to pay your taxes with crypto well because i mean the dollar really becomes irrelevant and useless you know like i don't even know what people will still hold some dollars on fiat national currency if it's possible to pay your taxes in crypto you know so maybe yeah i will go ahead and say i will tell you who is still gonna pay their taxes in fiat i am because by mere virtue of gresham's law right so if you have the choice of let's say you have a tax bill from the government oh 10 000 bucks are you gonna part with 10 000 dollars of the narrow to pay that or are you gonna pay with your paper currency because backed by literally nothing um and the reality is you better pay with that paper currency because you know it's going to go nowhere so you know american dollars are still going to be there they're just going to be we're going to accelerate their uselessness as people are using them more and you know that's kind of the irony of it that people are not going to use cryptocurrencies for a lot of things precisely because they are so good at what they do um and i think that that's one of the reasons that there are reasons to have like multiple currencies and in our case it might be the case that the american dollar might be some vestigial organ that people use to just pay for things quickly because they know it's like not really worth things yeah very interesting and so you envision a future where there will be like several cryptocurrencies you're talking about a multi cryptocurrency landscape or do you think like there will be one that will be the major cryptocurrency so as i said at the beginning of the video i'm kind of a maximalist when it comes to things because my way of looking at them are that really you just want one system that they're all based on that has you know principles behind it and everyone is in the same network right so if we're monero people and we want to transact with some other guy out there but he likes bitcoin cash okay that's an issue whereas um if we're all on the same page i mean that's the point of currency currency is useful because you expect other people will will take it in so there's an inherent purpose of there being one chain to rule them all right so right now now i did say as well that you can of course write software on top of things like bitcoin and ethereum um you can also not really write software on top of monero monero doesn't really have smart contracting abilities it might have something super simple but it doesn't even have what bitcoin has and now that's for a reason of course that's because when as monero began um there was no private way to do uh smart contracting whatsoever it's something that compromises privacy but i think again with the you know now that we have there's more complex uh cryptocurrency or crypto technology which can feasibly have smart contracting um in a private fashion and if that is the case i think it's really mandatory in effect that once we can vet that technology it really needs to be built into monero or whatever currency is going to be used because in that case we can have a private currency and we can have a private currency that you can build complex programs and applications on top of layer two's that of course are not doing the basic currency function that's not what i'm saying uh monero still does the basic currency function but you can write things on top of that that do things that are far more complex if you need it so that that is something that i so ideally i would like us to be in a place where we only need one chain um but there with a couple caveats one is i don't necessarily think that will happen i think that we will have multiple chains i expect bitcoin to persist right um and additionally i do not want digital things to be mandatory um i would like i do not want to live in a world where i have to pay with everything even with monero i want to be able to pay with something physical i want to be able to pay with something where i know that there is not going to be any metadata leakage because there is no metadata i want to be able to give someone a silver coin so i i do want us to always have that ability to not use technology that is actually most important for me um but you know in the realm of digital technology we got to do it right and that's what yeah but why would why would it be so important you know if it's possible to i mean to to exchange with digital cryptocurrencies because when you think about it you know like silver and gold in the universe there are ubiquitous you know like uh they're everywhere so when the when humans you know they are going to start to go on Mars and on the universe so basically gold and silver it will be everywhere so personally i think that having digital scarcity is uh it is a milestone and that in the future it will become the norm you know well i i don't know how much i buy the whole ass asteroid mining thing i mean maybe that's a thing i mean okay if it okay i'm skeptical of the extent to which it could be feasible in either way the point is not gold or silver or whatever themselves but some kind of physical non-digital currency i think that's mandatory and the reason i say that is let's say when you use some great let's say Monero is the greatest thing ever it's perfect one thing breaking news breaking news one day i will build like a company with some money or you know i will fund the company that is going to mine some some asteroids okay all right good to know just yes but you know you know yeah but the reason i say you have to have something non-digital okay absolutely 1000 percent you have to have that um is because i when i look at why i endorse Monero it is primarily because of dystopia avoidance i do not want to live in a dystopia okay so let's say Monero is the greatest currency ever it's it's perfectly scalable it's perfectly private everything's fantastic about it well here's the thing i want to be able to buy something without taking my freaking phone to the store or without getting microchipped with my Monero wallet and some you know fancy transaction i don't care how perfect it is i do not want to have to use so i do not want to have to use some kind of digital technology where i could just give someone a coin yeah i see what you mean but um the way things go you know i think like everything is going to become digital you know so for me um yeah i think like the the cash and the coins they will disappear with time you know so this is why having digital cash is so important um well i definitely do not think no i don't think that everything is going to be digital like they're inherent i mean okay they're inherent difficulties even if you don't care about privacy now firstly carrying a cell phone on you is necessarily a privacy liability even if you are running Monero and stuff like that so that in itself i think is questionable but even aside from that i want to be able to try to transact value um where there's no metadata leakage where i might not necessarily have internet connection where i can physically hold things because there are times that you need to physically hold something um and like there are many reasons to use a physical um physical currency and i absolutely don't think that everything is going to be digital i think the worst thing in the world is the fact when people are digitizing things that don't need to be digitized like there are many reasons to use digital technology there's of course many reasons to use digital currency but i don't think that it's going to be the only standard and i think it's very dangerous i mean any any of this metaverse stuff i think is probably a great example of things that i i mean people are literally create trying to create this universe to replace the real universe um i i view that as inherently questionable and um you always have to have that real like and if i were given a choice mind you if i were given a choice of us using all physical coins or using manero i would absolutely choose physical points because you have to have that i mean you you have to not be able to use technology i don't want to force people into using extra layers of complexity that's actually the whole point of me making the argument as for why we don't need layer two we should have good digital technology in the same way i do not want to force people to have to use this technology to transact value and that's in essence what you're doing if you're saying everything is going to be digital yeah i mean i don't buy into the metaverse thing you know between comes to like money i think like it will be like impossible to have uh something material that will store value because on the universe everything is ubiquitous you know and um in the coming years i think like humans they're going to go into the universe so what will happen that well everything let's say like you think like everything that is scarce on earth is going to be there are going to be plenty on the universe so once people start to go on the universe i think like the only scarcity that will be left is a digital scarcity you know uh i am just less i have less faith in our technological so i don't really even think i at this point i doubt that people are even going to put a man on mars frankly so that's possible i i just don't i think that requires a whole lot of faith in the technology to say that oh we're going to be able to asteroid mine things and stuff in very soon in the future i think that's kind of a big leap and if if that does happen if it comes out in the next years that we're going to be imminently doing that kind of stuff i mean i'll make adjustments i just find out very very unlikely i think there's a tendency to say oh in principle we can do this with technology therefore it could happen like space is a very big place you might say there's a lot of gold and silver in the universe and that's very true i'm sure um but space is also an astronomically large place it's hard to move places it's hard to do everything doing everything in space i mean it sort of reminds me of the people who the kind of nutters who are like well man we're killing the planet with global warming so let's just move to mars and terraform it because that'll be easier and that's insane uh dealing with like an increase in the earth's temperature of a couple degrees is infinitely easier than going to mars and terraforming a planet and i think a lot of people when they're talking about space futurism they have this tendency to omit a lot of the zeros i think they underestimate how difficult a lot of things are going to be um and that's just like given the things we know given the things we don't know a lot of this stuff is probably going to be impossible a physically impossible given physics and the way that we understand it so but all of this is immaterial i mean there is probably just some i just want to buy stuff with physical stuff i mean that that's what i want and i might use i mean in real like right now i i don't have any cash in my wallet right now i use uh you know credit cards or whatever to transact most of my stuff however i still want that right to use cash and i might in the future be using and i fully expect 99% of transactions in a hundred years from now barring you know uh some kind of huge technological collapse i expect 99% of transactions to be digital but we always have to write the right have to have the right to not do digital transactions okay i see what you mean yeah if only an existing possibility like an option yeah i see what you mean this way i agree yes like if there is only the digital thing and like you cannot do something else like it does have to be mandatory you know but i think it will be like the main thing yeah well i mean another possibility i'm i'm surprised you didn't say this before but um another possibility for physical currency let's say that your disaster scenario or maybe you don't consider a disaster but the scenario of let's say gold and silver are just falling from the sky now we have so much of it well you can do a physical currency based on a digital currency right so you could have a trusted bank that says okay we have reserves we have one million minero in our vaults and you can deposit your minero and we will give we will give you paper minero all right so and we can verify cryptographically that your paper minero corresponds to minero that we actually have we're not doing fractional reserve banking you could do something like that and then you could use your paper minero without your your cell phone or anything that would work fine so that's a possibility as well um but again i just i just have to you have to have the ability to give someone directly something without the internet or any of that crap that's all i'm saying yeah yeah very interesting and what you said i think you just made the picture you know for what will potentially happen in the future which is like cryptocurrencies from governments that are cryptographically linked to a store value like minero you know and when when we talked about it like we said that a government they don't necessarily really want minero for their population because they cannot track everything and all this but maybe like they will have minero as store or value and a fiat currency but linked to their store value cryptographically so that they cannot inflate the money i think that this is a very possible way you know and likely future you know the way governments are doing well i think if you're linking a fiat currency to a digital asset it ceases being a fiat currency yes it's it's not a fiat currency right you know so yeah from one government yeah um what was that i didn't you know yeah it would be like have money but from the government you know it's um it should be like a possibility you know yeah and you know one thing about it is that hopefully i think what will happen is a kind of peaceful revolution or transfer over to cryptocurrency more because as i said there are some governments not all governments are necessarily antithetical to bitcoin um obviously i mentioned a bunch of us states have thought about accepting bitcoin or minero or other cryptocurrencies so a lot of basically everyone out there except for the fed has some reason to use this stuff it's only the fed and it's beneficiaries that are going to be like oh i don't know about this like this is a little we won't we won't have the power we used to have um and i think that mass adoption is something that can happen happen gradually i mean i i hope that it um you know i guess it's kind of our job to help make things a little easier for people um that's why you know when i recommend people to get into cryptocurrency i never do it because i want them to expect to make money because that's literally not what it's about um the way you know if i'm trying to sell minera to someone i will just say it's a nice way of exchanging value digitally you don't have to rely on paypal you don't have to pay all these massive transaction fees you don't have to do all this other silliness uh you don't have to have a platform it and you know i recommend people just to get into it buy a couple hundred couple thousand dollars of it just to and tell your friends to do it too and when you owe each other money send money back or if you want to buy something from the other do that and then once you have a small community of people doing that you move on to oh can we get the businesses in our town to accept minero or something like that like that's how adoption really happens it doesn't happen by people making money and then posting on social media how much money they made you know yeah yeah really like um making sure you know that people use it you know this is where everything happens yeah okay and that's one of the reasons that i think bitcoin is going to be lagging in respects to minero um you know minero i forget the exact metric right now but i think it's around a tenth of bitcoin's transactions which is like way more than you expect considering like the market cap and everything you expect you to be far less minero is actually used like like people actually use minero whereas if you look a couple years back you know it was like two percent of bitcoin's transactions so it's it's much more significant and it's not like one spike it's a pretty consistent you know usage pattern so i think that it's definitely a slow burn and again i don't i don't recommend it to people because i want you know i do want them to make money but that's not the reason i recommend using this stuff it's really just the way people should look at it is it's software it is software that does something that no other software does and it's something that can be very very useful for you and your friends and businesses around you and everyone else yeah and as governments you know they are going to become crazier and crazier you know we have seen this with the recent events with wish we are with everything and what i believe is that now it will become mandatory to have a protection against the actions of governments because we have seen like they can inflate the money and then they can over tax people so i truly believe that right now the situation is going to become more and more extreme because just like two or three years ago like nobody even knew what a central bank is you know and right now like central banks everyone knows about it and the central bankers everyone know them so the situation is completely changing and if you remember like at one point there was this this woman i think it's Oma Rova like a communism a communist that tried to take the lead of an agency of the United States and basically she proposed some communist measures for the world country and to completely like erase banks and make them like replace banks with a central bank and what i think is uh it was like a test to test people of what is possible uh before they actually do something like this you know and in the coming years it's not coming right now but like in coming years they will propose measures that are so crazy that if you're not protected you will be like a completely rubbed you know yeah the issue particularly with the american government is that it's really i don't want to say it's overplayed its hand because it might still work out for it but i mean a lot of people look at governments and have this idea that there are there are nice governments and then there are totalitarian governments and there are these two boxes right and during the fifties and sixties and seventies eighties a lot of americans are like oh well we definitely have a nice government but in reality when you have a system that big a nice government is just a government that doesn't feel threatened and the american government feels threatened now and this is why we've had this expansion i mean of course we have inflation like that's been happening but it's continuing but we've had these massive lockdowns this massive attempt to persecute protesters and things like this here and in canada and in europe in australia all of these countries are are kind of panicking because they can see that they are they're in a threat i mean in the united states the the starting starting point of this was sort of donald trump who's a doofus but like he kind of he they realized that he the fact that he can get so many people behind him and a lot of people are so upset with the system right they are just you know there's a reason for them to actually clamp down on people that's when things kind of began here people started getting deplatformed by stuff uh by different platforms and now it's expanded beyond particular politics it's getting wider and wider and wider and the american government and really the governmental system where we shouldn't really just talk about the american government but you know the american government the fed kind of the media and university class of people who are all kind of on the same page all of them are panicked not just about the money but now you know the new thing is russia right so russia of course is no threat to the united states militarily but it's it's kind of become become this new impetus for people to jump off i mean they're applying the new next level of censorship to russia now financial censures censorship all the kind of thing the president of the united states came out and said well you know it's on the table we might just start expropriating russians living in america we might just take their property oh those oligarchs we've got to stop them i mean that's something that the united states would accuse venezuela of doing oh my god this is like third world behavior i can't you're just you you just want to take people's property and so what all of this has to do with cryptocurrency is not just the inflation aspect that is definitely like you if you take away the ability to inflate the currency that takes away a lot of their power but additionally cryptocurrency is the first kind of money that is is so magical you can store it in your brain if you memorize your seed phrase it's not something that's sitting in a bank account that the american government has control over or they can say oh well you better stop working with this bank or we'll take your money or we'll freeze your account or something like that so now we see all these reasons just to use i mean to use if we're using a digital technology we have to have a private one and one that where a person has custodianship over his own money yeah completely completely this is like i mean the the difference you know between having your own money and letting your money to the government or any other institution you know this is a difference between being truly free and to be like a sovereign citizen you know and being a slave you know because i have to use the the words i think the current system we have it's more and more a slavery system you know where we are the the debt system we have talked about inflation and it comes with the debt of people you know who you know they they have to work for money so it means that if people can inflate money then it makes them slaves you know and for me i think like cryptocurrency and especially monero it's giving to the people a way to escape from this crazy system and yes yeah um i think like incoming years there will be a government you know that will say that it is illegal to have monero and i will try to to to go all against monero but it would be impossible to do anything you know so right now we are seeing like all the leaders of countries that are showing exactly all the points why cryptocurrency is important and also why bitcoin is not relevant it is not up to the job compared to monero you know because if some people from canada in for instance you know if they use bitcoin they can be tracked so it means that it's useless you know for the use case so right now i think like we are at a very critical moment where every cryptocurrency is like tested you know on its fundamentals so that's why the the price doesn't matter because right now every cryptocurrency is tested on the fundamentals and what will arrive in coming years is that the properties of monero will make it emerge from from the dark the dark spot where it is right now yeah yeah definitely and that's one of the reasons why monero is so much more important than bitcoin because monero does everything right on the base layer it is right by default you don't have to add stuff on top of it and as we mentioned earlier in the stream um bitcoin as it's being implemented in el salvador is exactly the opposite of what it's supposed to be it's supposed to be peer-to-peer it's supposed to be non-custodial it's supposed to be pseudo-anonymous and again what's the el salvadorian government doing well you log on to their app you give your name your address and all this kind of stuff you take a picture of yourself humiliating i've always found that humiliating but then they give you a custodial wallet ultimately that the government controls this is i mean it's more absurd than the banking system as it is right now i mean i trust a bank more with my money than i do the government i don't want them to have my money and say oh my goodness that anytime we want we could take it away and of course in el salvador it's even worse than that but wait there's more because the el salvadorian government you might know uses this kind of custodianship service for their private keys there's actually an american company that allegedly i mean this has been partially verified but there's an american company that has custodianship that does their custodianship for the bitcoin that the el salvadorian government has from its people so people are now logging into this panopticon program program where all their transactions are watched their transactions can be easily monitored and censored um they their personal they are kyc'd up the wazoo this is the exact opposite of what a cryptocurrency is supposed to be and again this is bitcoin's first appearance on the global stage and it's a freaking disaster and this is why minero is so important important because you don't have to build layer two on top of minero you don't have to build this other crap it just works even if you have no clue how it works it works you get an app on your phone you hide your seed phrase in a nice and secure place you put money on minero and it you can transact it you don't have to worry about anything it's uncensorable it's unmonitorable it does what a currency is supposed to do and again it's an issue of do you want to build your house on the sand or do you want to build your house on a rock and minero is built on that rock bitcoin maybe the house on sand can last for a while maybe it'll last forever but i don't want to live in a house there i would rather rather live on a rock you know yeah because if you know if we have to when when you i mean what you just said you know about the private keys in the fact that the government of El Salvador they don't even have their own private keys i mean that's so crazy and i didn't i didn't even know about it you know and well go ahead and say it's not even totally sure like they might have some multi-signature wallet or something like that either way some american company which is beholden to the american government has at least partial control over the money so okay so i think you know in the coming uh yes what will happen the debate it will also be like custodial against non-custodial and the fact that bitcoin right now it is creating an ecosystem where it becomes more and more custodial you know and there was also this new norm i think it's called aop something like this and i don't know if you i don't know if you know but like the wallet um like i think it was treasure wallet and all the major wallets like they have implemented this without telling anybody so basically what he did is like he linked the identity of the owner to addresses and he tracked the transactions and everything and well nobody knew about it but then it was linked and they decided to stop it but i think it is just a question of time before they they go back and implement such a things and right now i think like monero with abno it is creating like a decentralized ecosystem and this is extremely important you know like it will not only be privacy against uh transparent money but it will also be like a decentralized ecosystem against custodial with rules and governments ecosystem yeah and i said earlier that regulation although i don't want cryptocurrency to be regulated but i do think regulation is going to work in our benefit because yeah yeah yeah what what is happening is like people are being nudged more and more to just using cryptocurrency in the way that it's intended using a peer-to-peer exchange like havano or which i don't think is out yet but you know bisque or something like that for bitcoin which of course you can get the name monero on too so like that is going to push people in the right way and the the other thing you have to remember as i said before having holding monero or using monero or having a monero ecosystem is not about caching in and caching out that's one of the big hurdles that normies have when they get in the cryptocurrency the thing you have to emphasize to them is that you are buying into a system that is going to be inherently valuable you are going to be able to transact that value on the system and yes in american dollars your your money's going up but the important thing to remember is you don't catch out you want to be in this new economy that has you know doesn't have very much now you can't do that i mean you can do lots of things with monero and stuff but realistically speaking you can't you know do everything you do daily right um but we we want to move to a place where there are networking effects such that people want to accept this currency and it has all of these benefits that that is the goal like people need to stop thinking about making money off of it and need to start thinking of using this network for what it's supposed to be oh yeah okay it's back so yeah just a few questions you know about like it's not directly related to to monero you know because um yeah on your channel no i saw that uh you're willing to latin and also you were talking about a book you know and it seemed very interesting it's from avis total uh secret of secret secret a room oh yeah secret of secret a room yeah i mean if people don't know i seen those who watch my channel will know but uh what one thing that i've always been interested in is republishing out of print books so i started that last year i have a little business that's lindypress.net uh which actually does not accept monero yet that's my goal this year it there was a period actually let me let's talk about monero being used there was a period where i started my website when i did accept cryptocurrency payments i'm actually trying to use btc pay and more non custodial stuff doing things the right way now but uh there was a period where i did accept cryptocurrency payments and i accepted bitcoin bitcoin over the lightning network ethereum and monero and i will go ahead and tell you i just had that for a week or two but more than 50 of the payments that i got were from monero okay one or two from ethereum i think there was maybe one or two from bitcoin and zero over the lightning network so that'll just tell you you know in terms of usage where usage is that um either way so i have a little site called lindypress.net and what i do is i take books that have been out of print and and reprint them um and it it's all using you know this printing service and it's print on demand basically so yeah i i liked taking books especially from uh i have five books that are up there as we're recording this and i have a couple of others that's working on that one included you know so i just make books that have you know not been in print put things in them um is there anything specifically about that book that you wanted to talk about or no because when you i mean it seemed like uh you were talking about avis total and isander was a great and he seemed what you said about it seemed very interesting you know yeah yeah so the book the secret of secrets firstly modern scholars will say oh it wasn't actually written by Aristotle like that's unlikely or something like that either way people at the period uh definitely believe that Aristotle did write this book it was massively influential in the middle ages and it's an interesting book just as a casual reading thing that's one of the it was very influential but it also is a good casual read because it's really Aristotle giving alexander the great all of this kind of life advice right so a lot of it is specifically political um so it's telling him how to how to choose ministers how to run a society how to win wars but it also has things like well you know what how do you wake up in the morning what's a good morning routine what should you eat what seasons should you eat different things in if you feel like this you know all this kind of dietary stuff and it even has things that are are more like um herbal remedies and and even some kind of esoteric stuff there's a there's a recipe for the philosopher's stone so it's just an interesting book culturally speaking and it's one of those books that again was massively important at the time and and uh affected a lot of thinking but modern people actually don't know that it exists anymore because i think the modern tendency is to say well they say Aristotle didn't actually write this so let's just kind of ignore it so it's not not it's not a real book and in reality it was probably more important than a lot of other stuff that Aristotle had written um but okay so another one i'll actually i think i have a copy right here um that i did um that kind of reminds me of it but another book that was massively influential that i reprinted was the book of etymologies now this book is actually in latin yeah so when you print it like you put uh all this uh i mean you put like it's like it's professional like you have all the equipment and all of this to do that so i use a print on demand company which is something that's similar to and you know amazon does this if you want to publish your own book you know you can send a pdf of it to amazon and they'll print it okay so it's not me that does the printing or tipping it's actually a company called lulu i i'm anti amazon i'm not going to use them i could probably make more money using amazon but um either way so what i do specifically is um well one thing that i've done on my channel for a while um is uh typeset documents so you know it's making a book of course it's way more complicated than people think i don't use like microsoft word i use a technology that's called la tech or or ze la tech which is a way of basically automatically form formatting documents and it can add images and other things in it'll number all your pages it'll cross reference everything um so that's the software that i use to write this stuff and it basically has templates for creating in books and stuff and it's all on the command line and and and you know i use on my computer i don't know if you've seen my screen yeah so either way what you get is a very nice looking book um you know in terms of like if you open it up it is it is very well formatted and uh you know i spend a good bit of time you know dealing with the sizes and stuff like that so that's that's one way i have that's the kind of business i've had that i actually i've always wanted to do just for myself but yeah okay it looks uh very interesting you know very interesting okay and um well i think yeah we have we have done a lot you know uh just not just out of curiosity you know uh i don't know if you know but i'm working right now in on a production project you know for open source medical research uh with that intellectual property you know and uh well it's a hk project and um i want it you know to because i know that you're not into web3 and all of this personally i'm not in web3 as well but like i think uh there is a necessity you know for production that will enable us to have a open source medical research so i wanted to know you know if uh you already know something about it or what is your point of view you know about that um i'm not familiar with that particular project um of course i am i mean the main problem with pretty much anything academic is of course the copyrights at this point like there are a bunch of really absurd hoops you have to jump through to read certain documents and documents that would actually benefit everyone out there um and to me it's always been kind of sick that copyrights even exist right um like there's kind of a greedy justification for them but i've always had like i'm a i'm an efficiency man and when i write software i want things to be free and open source and the reason i want that is because my view is like i do not want to um extract money from the software itself i want to live in an environment where you have interacting software that is collaboratively written and people can build stuff on top of right and that's actually what manero is that's what bitcoin is that's what they're trying to do if it wouldn't be worth anything if it were a proprietary you know closed source program um so i'm a big you know i'm the big proponent of copy left and uh just in general the the idea that copyright should be subverted so i mean that that that's a good um i mean i consider that good i don't know how necessary it is to do it over the blockchain uh there has been a move in academia just out of the sheer annoyance of it there have been you know many open source open access journals that have arisen or places where you can just publish scientific papers and i am very much anti the university system and a lot of the research systems out there are fundamentally and radically corrupt um they're they are focused on so much else other than what they are nominally supposed to be doing and one of the reasons is they are trying to squeeze money out of something which should inherently be done for either academic interest or for you know wanting to do good and i feel like a lot of people are less focused on that and more focused on being functionaries within academia unfortunately but nonetheless i think there is somewhat of a movement to have more open access journals um now i i don't know what your project is on or what the blockchain there does but i don't know is there some particular reason a blockchain has to be used or or something like that yeah actually you know um when you talk about the open journals this is exactly you know about this but like um the blockchain i think is necessary to create the incentive because right now like the reason why there is nobody making like open source medical research is because like there is no incentive to do that and when i say this i mean an economic incentive and with blockchain we can create a protocol that can reward people that make open source medical research and that's that's why you know i think a blockchain is necessary so yeah if you if you want you can check out no the hcar project um i i think the potential no it's absolutely huge and i've been working on this you know for for years now and is going to launch uh like in coming days so and yeah i mean i i'll just say i'm kind of an idealist about things like that because um i mean yeah the economic incentive i'm sure that's great and i i hope it works out but you know in it you know working in the world of free and open source software right we've written entire operating systems ground up multiple times with um a panoply of sweet of software all without that economic motivation so i'm saying i'm my idealist in the sense that i think in a lot of cases um or maybe this is just how i am like i really feel that um i don't know like i just i feel like it's not real if it's not free and open source you know what i mean not just in the case of software but um yeah just like in research you know you have to find the research like you need some tools you need some equipments so this is why you know you have to have some rewards to fund the research and with uh the edgecar project the goal you know is to create a system where basically everything is open source and free to access you know like when people make research they can post on a blockchain and then there is a mechanism that is going to reward them so the difference with the current system you know it relies on intellectual property so it means that when you when you want to benefit on the current system you know and you actually find something you have to rely on the fact that you will create a patent with your intellectual property so not only you have to wait like years maybe five ten years you have to fund all the research in advance but also you never you never share the results with anybody because you want to protect it for yourself and to protect your intellectual property but imagine what will happen you know when we will have like um potentially a blockchain where we will be able to to share all the information and that you would not have to add anything you know you have to to share with people I think it will accelerate the path of discovery and also it will change the subjects of the research because there are lots of diseases that not nobody's working on them because like there is not big enough market for huge companies you know so I'll just ask how specifically does the it's coming back yeah okay so in that system how exactly does a project or a research venture be funded like how is that decided I mean how how does that happen is this is this like planned by committee or is this something automatic on the blockchain yeah so it's a kind of both but mostly automatic production so hard and basically you can write a proposal so it's a any kind of files you know it can be a pdf anything you know that describes what you have found okay and then you're going to submit this in the blockchain and then there is there is like a voting mechanism that the proposals they will be voted on for three weeks and basically people can say they will they vote for a proposal against a proposal and then depending on the results of the votes after these three weeks it will really be rewarded because the protocol it issues a currency and like every like every week it issues a fixed amount of currency and with this inflation of currency it funds the research system you know so if you make the proposal then when people will vote on your proposal depending on the amount that they are voting on your proposal you get the parts of the weekly reward you know so if your proposal it gathers a lot of votes have i mean it will be in proportion you know to the amount of votes it has gathered so it's um it's like a cryptocurrency it's a half asset that people can own and i mean there is so much to talk about you know like but um so yeah so when you vote token i mean so if someone has like lots of token they could have a lot more sway you know if they uh i'm just trying to figure out or it's not like one person one vote no it's it's not one person one vote but it's like one token one vote to some extent so i see what i see what you're going you know like yes if someone has a lot of the tokens they can control the system so that's why you know the issuance of this cryptocurrency it's planned like to last for 10 years 10 years and to have like a fixed amount during the 10 years you know and then in 10 years you will arrive at like a 21 million of this cryptocurrency and after there will be like an inflation of about 2 dot 6 percent inflation yearly and with this inflation it will finance the system so you know i think if the distribution the initial distribution is is done is such a way that it is really owned by a lot of people and truly people from with good intentions i think then um yeah like uh if if let's say someone has like a five even like one percent of the world's supply which i think it will never happen but like say well they cannot like uh they cannot control the voting system and the reward system with only one percent you know so i think yeah potentially uh i think yes the the potential is huge to to to give to give this to to to humanity you know and for instance uh when i was talking about the incentive there was a project called open source malaria and uh it is a project that is aiming to find a cure for malaria with open source way and like it is very very not active you know and uh back in the days you know like three three years ago i tried to reach out to them to see what was going on but like it wasn't active and the reason why it's not active is because i think they they were liking the funding and also to some extent the incentive to really participate and to to do everything necessary you know so if there is a cryptocurrency that i can truly you know exist and to incentive people to make open source research i think it can change a lot of things because right now like nobody nobody is making open source research you know and uh unfortunately you know i think the reason why is because we do not have like uh incentive to do that for instance right now like a lot of people they have become like experts of uh chart analysis like uh five years ago like nobody nobody knew how to read the charts and all of this the but uh right now like uh everybody uh knows exactly how the charts works they they make comments you know the lines and all these like experts and i think why is because there was an economic incentive to do that nice guy yeah you know i think yeah there is an incentive economic incentive to do that so that's why you know i mean when you think about it like uh reading lines of the charts it is useless and it brings nothing to humanity you know and but people do that and then do not do open source research why because there is no economic incentive so when there will be a cryptocurrency that will incentive people to take part in research and i think it will be a positive momentum you know where not only uh there will be more research but the data will be shared and i think that the the path of a discovery will accelerate you know i truly believe that because right now like there are specifically for medical research or is it supposed to take the place of universities in general no it's specifically for medical research you know because right now like there are too many new technologies that are coming and the current system you know where you have to have a small team like of 10 15 people and you have to put like billions of dollars to create one a medicine or one treatment i think this is this system is going to become obsolete you know because it is not optimal and like with um there are too many possibilities so that like few people cannot take full advantage of all the technologies that are coming and i feel that we need a lot a lot of people thinking about it making research with open source way to really benefit from the new technologies that are coming you so i'll ask the maximalist question is there any reason that the system is not built on bitcoin or some pre-existing network that's you know larger well uh it could have been built on ethereum but the reason why i mean that's a very interesting question because i think like ethereum and other blockchain like i don't know i believe like they are not really useful because i think that instead of focusing on the infrastructure they should have focused on the content you know because what they are trying to do is to build a huge infrastructure so that anyone can do any kind of project on this you know so basically what happens is that they are putting a lot of efforts to build something extremely scalable and at the end of the day what do you have you have things that for me personally i think are useless uh you have let's say you know you have sheet coins on you know on these platforms you know that's my point of view personally but uh on the contrary i think like the the the way you know uh i tried with etika was like to have one specific use case one blockchain for one specific use case and do that you know so basically it is a fork of ethereum with one smart contract the etika smart contract and it does do that you know so it's a blockchain that benefits from all the properties of decentralization of ethereum but just for one use case so like we have uh the possibility you know to program the cryptocurrency with very specific rules for one specific use case but like it's not it doesn't have the goal to have all the economic aspect of ethereum into it you know like just one use case so this way there's no problem of scalability because with for just this specific use case the current scalability of the ethereum blockchain is definitely enough so it is ready from day one you know like right now when it will be launched it will be ready to do everything that it is supposed to do and we will see what will happen you know but yeah the idea was to create you know like a new asset a new cryptocurrency asset for this specific problem i think we have of intellectual property right now you know like personally i believe that beyond bitcoin and monero the next big thing for cryptocurrency will be decentralized science and the fact that we can create a new system for research with that integral property that is decentralized and we can share everything you know so yeah okay yeah uh yeah i'm trying to think uh i mean did you want to talk about intellectual property generally or you know just no i mean uh just you know to yeah to um so yeah uh yeah i think it was a it was a great chat you know we uh we changed a lot of thoughts mm-hmm very cool yeah well it was nice talking to you yeah yeah so yeah so yeah thank you you know for for for coming on the channel and uh very you know very great to to speak with you you know i i mean i really enjoyed it and uh yeah you know i really really appreciate you know you being there and uh also you know everything you have done for for monero you know with your videos and all these really really appreciate you oh no problem well you too i mean so uh well anyway if uh any other time you just uh you called me maybe we can do something um but uh if any big events come up in monero world or whatever oh by the way um maybe i ask you this off of recording but uh are you going to the thing in my where is it miami or yeah monero topia yeah yeah when is that exactly it's uh 7th april okay i guess i can still get a ticket i don't know are you speaking of that or um yeah no so anything else before we go or no i mean that's uh again very very glad not to to meet you and i hope yeah we'll be able not to have other chat you know and um maybe we'll meet at monero topia yeah maybe so all right see you around okay thank you mm-hmm right i'm going to to stop the recording okay