 to the creative life of collaborative production between the American Creativity Association, Austin Global, and Think Tech Hawaii. I'm your host, Darlene Boyd, and co-hosting with me today is Kelly Odo. Kelly is CEO and founder of Unitis International. Kelly and our guest, Moko Mar. Moko is Executive Director of Japanese American Memorial Pilgrimages and the honorable Judge Glenn Yabuno, all are descendants of camp internees. This is part two. Part one can be also viewed and it could be viewed as a separate entity or flows nicely, hopefully, as we go into production with part two with you today, with our viewers today. In the first part, we focused on the camp pilgrimages and their importance in keeping history of Japanese internment alive. And today, we'll be talking about some of the legalities that necessitated internment or played a role in the history of the development of internment camps. And our goal in doing so is to get the meaning across of the importance, the extreme importance to keep history alive. And the pilgrimages are certainly one way. And we'll be talking a little bit about the implications that were historically there for Hawaii. And just for your information, this all came about with the conversation that I had had with Kelly. And Kelly was talking to me and telling me how moved she was as she visited the Japanese Cultural Museum in Los Angeles. And she had signed the book as a descendant indicating and looking for her father. But more importantly to me or what touched me so importantly was that Kelly was beginning to become emotional. And she had talked and said, I think I'm going to visit my father's grave as a result of visiting the museum. Now there are cultural museums elsewhere, some are more elaborate than others, but we know that there is a cultural center in Hawaii. We'll be referencing and talking about that a little bit later in the show. So with that, thank you Kelly for making this all happen. Serving as a host and producer in a way, you put this team together for us and I agree. And then Judge Glenn offered to start us off and I'll be turning this over to Judge Glenn to take us through the acts that were behind this whole process and he'll take it from there. So thank you, Judge. Well, thank you very much, Darlene, and welcome everybody. It's my pleasure once again to be part of this particular show. We talked about last time the internment camps in the United States, in the continental United States, and we also talked about the pilgrimages and why it's important to continue to visit those camps to remember what happened and to try to ensure that it doesn't happen again. So what I'd like to do is give a little bit of a history as to how all that came about. Following the bombing of Pearl Harbor in December of 1941, the United States declared war against Japan and in the spring of 1942, actually, I believe it was February 1942, Executive Order 1990, 9066 was signed by President Roosevelt. And well, many people believe that it was specifically targeting the Japanese Americans. This text of the order itself makes no reference to any particular race. It's a military exclusion order, giving the authorities the authorization to exclude any and all individuals from certain areas. It was used primarily, if not only, against the Japanese Americans. But the language of the order itself does not specifically reference that. It references the right for the military to declare exclusion zones and then to move people out of those zones. So that's what happened as a result of that order is that General DeWitt, as the commanding general at the time in charge of that effort posted notices throughout California and the western areas of that state and declaring certain areas off limits and designating what you needed to do to go to the initial assembly centers. Well, they awaited building of the relocation centers. There ultimately were 10 relocation centers built throughout the United States and we discussed those last time. And there were a number of assembly centers where people were taken awaiting the completion of those buildings. Shortly thereafter, a number of lawsuits were filed. One of the ones that most people have heard of is Korematsu. Fred Korematsu was an individual who refused to relocate and challenge the law. Another individual was Mitsui Endo. And she was specifically chosen as a plaintiff in a lawsuit because of her particular set of circumstances. Mr. Korematsu simply said that it was not legal to enforce the order and enforce the relocation. Ms. Endos was a little bit different in that she was an employee of the state of California and she was forced to leave her job working for the Department of Transportation, I believe it was at the time, now known as Caltrans. And she was taken to an assembly center and ultimately taken to a relocation center. I believe it was in Topaz and correct me if I'm wrong, Kimiko, but I believe she was sent to Topaz, which is in Utah. And even though she was relocated out of state, she was still designated as the plaintiff in that particular suit and her complaint or her legal theory was that she was a loyal American and you cannot indefinitely confine loyal Americans. And they specifically chose Ms. Endo because even though she had a Japanese American last name and she was in fact Japanese American, she didn't speak Japanese at all. So it was not like they could point to her as being a particular risk, so to speak. So both those cases ultimately ended up in the United States Supreme Court and they were actually decided on the same day with different results realistically in the Korematsu case, the lower courts upheld the military necessity of excluding the certain segment of the population. And they said because of military necessity, they upheld the law without going specifically into the race of the individuals or anything else. They just said the facts and circumstances of that time justified the military necessity of excluding individuals contrary to their constitutional rights. And that was upheld in a split decision by the United States Supreme Court. There was a very strong dissent, but the majority upheld it. In the Endo matter, it was a little bit different because what they ended up coming to the decision is that you cannot indefinitely confine Americans who were obviously loyal to the United States. I believe they used the word concededly loyal, so it was obvious that they were loyal Americans and you couldn't indefinitely confine them just because. And that is the case that ultimately led to the relocation centers being closed. Both cases were decided in December 1944 and the relocation centers began closing in 1945 and were ultimately shut down towards the I believe September, October of 1945 is when almost all of them were formally closed down. So those are two of the most significant cases. There were a couple of others, but those are the ones most people know about and one upheld the war relocations authority and the other basically said the war relocation authority exceeded its authority by indefinitely confining individuals who were loyal to the United States. So that's a brief summary of how we got to where we are with the internment camps. I know Darlene wanted me to highlight the fact that internment camps weren't limited to the continental United States. There were relocation centers in Hawaii and in fact every island had a relocation center. Sand Island on a Uli Uli and I know I pronounced that probably incorrectly, Kimiko's indicating I was probably pretty close. There was Sand Island, Maui County Jail, Wailua County Jail. Often those locations were utilized and again there was something on every island. Some held a number of people, some held only a few individuals as few as three or four individuals, but they were used as internment centers during the course of the war. So it wasn't limited to just the 10 camps in the United States that everybody is familiar with. So with that I'm going to turn it back over to Darlene real quick and unless there's any question. Thank you, Glen. That's very helpful. It was very helpful to me in trying to organize my remembrance or what I've read regarding the history. I have a couple of questions before I ask Kelly to spin off on this too as well. Was it true that there were also Italians and Germans that were interned? Yes, they were but not in the numbers that we're talking about for Japanese Americans. There were also prisoner war camps here in the United States, but 9066 was used almost exclusively towards the Japanese American. Kelly, you have a question for Glen? Well, I find it, you spoke at the last show about how so many of our ancestors or those that were in camp did not speak about the camps or did not want to speak about the camps and why now generations moving forward that there are so many that are attending these pilgrimages. And so, Kimiko, you mentioned before about rewriting history or what was in the history books then was probably propaganda. And can you chat a little bit about that and the importance of why these pilgrimages and focusing on history and what actually did happen is important today? Yeah, I think that I kind of look at history different now than I used to when I was like in school. In school you kind of think of it like here's what's in the history book, this is history and that's it, but as I've gotten older I realized that our understanding of history is constantly evolving. What we think was perfectly fine to do 80 years ago now people would be horrified. And even the language that we use to talk about it, there's a whole thing about this on the Densho, Densho.org website that talks about words and what the words that we use. So, technically speaking, the use of the word internment only applies to non-citizens, technically speaking. So, when we say internment you can say that for the first generation, you know, the people who immigrated from Japan but for anyone born in the United States, it does not apply technically. So, we have started to shift the language and call it incarceration or instead of internment sites, incarceration sites or detainment centers or things because they it doesn't, if you look at the definition in the dictionary, a concentration camp is closer to what actually happened and because of the sensitivities with the Holocaust, a lot of people feel very uncomfortable using the word, a lot of Japanese-Americans feel uncomfortable using the word concentration camp because of the Holocaust, but in my opinion what happened in Germany is those are not concentration camps, those are death camps, those are beyond a concentration camp. So, we all kind of need to level up one and to talk the truth about what it was that happened and so there's like assembly, even though the words that Glenn was using to describe which are the words that were used, you know, assembly center, relocation, they're all very benign sounding, right? Like we're relocating you, of course it was against your will and you didn't get to pick where you went and you didn't have a choice. So, that was all part of like family. Yeah, so that was all part of the wording and so now as we move farther away from the actual events, I think people can take a more critical look at what happened and actually use words that really do describe what was happening to folks and not use euphemisms that are just, you know, very almost pleasant sounding, you know, camp and things like that, where, you know, now we would say concentration camp and a lot of people don't feel comfortable with that, but I think as time goes on we just have to become comfortable with it because that is what a concentration camp is. And what was the part of the part of your question, Kelly? I forgot. Do you think that we are attempting to not rewrite history, but present history as it should have been presented? I think that that there is a movement happening now where people really are trying to have somebody from that community tell the story, tell the history rather than having somebody outside of a community interpret because it's really hard for, if you're not Japanese American, there's just so many things that, you know, you don't understand about the culture and about how people do things, why they do things a certain way, why things happen, why people are quiet, why people didn't talk about it, you know. So I think there is more of a push now for Japanese Americans themselves to be telling these stories because there are Japanese American historians, archaeologists, filmmakers, there are artists, everything, right? So why not have somebody that represents the community also be telling that history? So I think it's not necessarily rewriting, it might just be refocusing from a different perspective. And I also think that, as Kimiko was saying, that we're trying to get away and tell the truth about what was the euphemisms that were popular at the time, an assembly center in most cases was the fairground. And in most cases, in those cases, they were the racetrack horse stalls that had been cleaned up. That was what the assembly center was, it wasn't, you know, a nice friendly place. And then the relocation centers themselves, even though they refer to as the barracks in the mess hall and things like that, you know, it gives the connotation that they were, you know, decent places to live. You know, they were pretty much hastily put together structures with no insulation. Quite often the only insulation was tarpaper on the side wall. There was nothing akin to what we would call or become used to as a habitable building with, you know, sheetrock now with insulation and stucco or something like that. No, these were literally wooden buildings that were put together with a frame and then black tarpaper put on the outside with windows and doors. So there was very little insulation. The elements got in very easily, especially dust and the wind. So, you know, we're trying to now come to grips with what was really happening and what it was really like. And then as was pointed out in the ENDO case that I cited, there was information withheld that the Japanese Americans were loyal. And there were FBI records and documentation that that was the case, but that wasn't brought forth. Instead, they allowed the hysteria of the times to take precedence instead of having everything come to light. And now, you know, we're bringing all that to light. And, you know, some of the cases even recognized it back then, but we want to make sure that people now know it because it's not in the history books. You only get a very, very half a page in a history book in most cases, unless you do a deep dive into the internment. My, you hear so much about the 442nd Regiment with the Japanese Americans. You also, I don't think that many people realize that young men, Japanese Americans that were interned were actually recruited from camp. And so my father was recruited from camp and to serve in the American Army. And he served in Japan. This photo is a photo of Hilo River where he was intern. This was in 1971. I just found this photo, but he took me as a little child there. And so Kimiko, you were just saying that it hasn't changed much since 1971. Looks the same. Looks the same. And that's unfortunate. You hate to see that history wiped away right there, but that's what happens over time. But it makes me wonder how, because we're talking about the Japanese American experience, but also how can this inspire action or promote social justice or a better understanding of those others it marginalized within society? That's a larger question. And one very applicable today, I believe. I would agree. I also wonder, or perhaps we haven't really talked about this, when we describe the situations at the camps. And I suspect, rather I'm certain that it is discussed among your families and also on the pilgrimages. And that would be the loyalty of the Japanese Americans as you, Glenn and Kelly and Kimiko, you've highlighted in the discussion actually serving and promoting Americanism. But then the paranoia that came about must have a ripple effect in the family. And also the fact that each of you have mentioned that you really haven't had much discussion unless you do see people attending these pilgrimages. So we're here to tell the story. And Kelly's inching in and telling a bit of her story. And in part one, Glenn and Kimiko, you did. But Kimiko, what is your story? You're a descendant. Was your family together when they went to camp, separated? No, well, I should say, so on my grandmother's side, my grandmother's father, so my great grandfather, was taken by the FBI. So he and his oldest son were taken and separated from the family. Everybody else in the family went to Topaz, Utah. But that's where they were during the war. Eventually my great-grandfather and his son returned, were reunited with the family. They called it being paroled, but they're paroled to another camp. So they were not free. They were just put into another, back to the camp with the rest of the family. So that's kind of the story there. But I kind of wanted to touch a little bit on what Kelly was saying and why this is important to talk about and to talk about it in a more realistic way instead of using euphemisms. Glenn, I'd be interested to hear your reaction to this, but freedom and civil liberties are fragile, just like our democracy is fragile. And this could happen again. I don't think that I'm being hysterical by saying that it could happen again to another group of people given the correct circumstances. And I think the reason why we want to share these stories is to make sure that people are aware that this happens and can happen and to guard against it, against allowing it to happen to anybody else. We talk about the loyalty of the Japanese Americans to the extreme of serving in a military capacity. But it would seem to me that it's important in telling this history that we mentioned it wasn't just hopping on a bus and being taken to a camp but was leaving everything behind. And then what do you do? Is your property confiscated? Is your property present day? We talk about squatters being as relevant as this week with stories that we're hearing. Being able to see someone's property just by the mere fact of going in and when someone's on vacation and taking over. So what were some of the experiences that you've learned from folks talking about where their property is there when they came back? Were they able to have someone shepherd? And if they had someone that was close to them, were they able to protect their property or were things confiscated along those lines? All kinds of stories, 120,000 people, 120,000 stories. But I think the majority of people lost something. Some people lost everything. Some people lost the property or a brand new car or when they had to get rid of their belongings. I heard the story of a man who said that his sister had just gotten a brand new piano right before and then they ended up having to sell it for like five dollars or something like that. But there are other stories of people who had neighbors, white neighbors, black neighbors, neighbors of all different kinds who were very instrumental in saving the property, saving or storing possessions like cars and things like that. So I do know a family whose African-American neighbors saved all of that for them and they didn't lose anything during the war, which I think is pretty rare to not have lost anything. So they were very lucky to have had that family as their friends who protected their thing. And Glenn, what was your story? Well, my mother's family had a similar situation to what Kimiko just talked about. They had neighbors who did take care of the farmland. They were in farmland country in an area known as French Camp, which is adjacent to Stockton now. And they were able to come back to the property. They did lose some things that were in a storage shed that was broken into and things were taken, but they did come back to the land and the property and the house and some of their possessions were still taken care of. My dad's family did not fare as well because he lived in the city. Fresno at the time, he ran a grocery store. So basically, he lost everything and had to start from scratch. But he ultimately did reopen the store. The whole family relocated back to Fresno in the same area. And that's what he did. He continued on after the war. But as far as retaining things, they did not fare as well as my mother's family. Well, with that, we're winding down here. But I do think it's important just to quickly summarize that the whole purpose of doing this series of part one and part two was to do what we've been trying to reinforce in the last few minutes of our discussion. And that is that we can't let this history go. And things could take a turn for the worst with any population if these stories are not brought forth and shared. And I'm sure I speak for a number of people when we say that we really have those of us who live in communities and have the honor and luxury to live in communities with Japanese Americans. We really do admire the valor that everyone has and the stories that people have, recognizing that we're not apt to talk to those people that even our neighbors don't always share those stories unless we really push and crowd them. So I'm very grateful to all three of you for doing so. And with that, it is time for us to say, well, let's just say at this point, it's time for us to close our discussion and hope that we'll have an opportunity in the future to do so. And with that in mind, you have been watching our program on the history of Japanese American descendants. And they've been, I guess, have been sharing their stories. And we look forward to the relationships that we have with the three of you and hope to keep in touch with you. And with that, I will say aloha. Aloha. We want to announce that think tech Hawaii is moving into a new phase and will not be producing regular talk shows after April 30. We will retain our website and YouTube channel and will accept new content on an ad hoc basis. We are also developing a legacy archive program to provide continuing public access to our content. If you can help us cover the costs of the transition and the development of our legacy archive program, please make a donation on think tech away.com. Thanks so much. Aloha.