 Yeah, one one quick thing. So I do go to a lot of dev-out stays and I'll show you how many in a little bit This is actually I'll tell you right now my 30th But and actually there was a bunch that wasn't counted in the early days, but it's the local organizers They they work their brains off. That's all my core organizer, and I watch all this chaos turn into these amazing events So when you see, you know, you're here you're gonna eat for free. You're gonna hear some amazing speakers and They do a lot of work to make these things turn out like so magical and sparkly princesses This is the dev-out state of union. I've I've done a lot of these kind of quasi keynotes If you want the presentation is there So you got about eight seconds the type of down if you want I'll put it out on so I started a slide share I'll obviously tweet it later. I am botch a galoupe. That's a hard one to shut down I will say if you have any questions and there's anything on a slide I recommend a lot of books and things like that So I've created actually a little shortcut Twitter because nobody gets the botch galoupe one right on the first try So BGLP so and it's on most of the slide so quickly 35 years an IT started out in Exxon. I actually was one of the early cloud evangelists at canonical I was the ninth person in it chef help develop the customer-facing business there and in the last three years, so I'm a Mind a chef. I'm a failed startup guy for 35 years, but the last three years been very nice to me I had a company that I work with we sold to Del Conestratius and six months ago today I sold a company called soccer playing to Docker. So So I'm at Docker now. This is my 30th DevOps. I'm actually one of DevOps core organizers I was at the original Ghent. I actually bought the first dev-up stays to US and iTunes and blah blah blah so the agenda for this presentation is I Was asked to kind of Capture what's going on in DevOps and because I go to a lot of DevOps days. I spent a lot of time with DevOps people So I figured this is the best story to tell I'm going to talk a little about taxonomy It's kind of loose taxonomies and that that'll make sense in a minute I'll talk about something called the DevOps survey that's actually the fourth year that it's done We'll talk about DevOps in the enterprise. What's going on there? And if we have time we'll talk about technology Actually be Q&A or technology and so I got a lot to cover. I'm going to talk fast So in 2009 I went to the first dev-up stays in Ghent. There was about 40 people. It was amazing Damon Edwards and myself a couple other people Andrew Schaefer Markinkel we organized the first dev-up stays in Silicon Valley Me and Damon had already been doing a step-ups cafe podcast and after that session though There's two days that we've actually it was a one day. I think the first one it was at LinkedIn and We were so blown away because we had 300 people show up so we had gone from from basically about 40 people actually Chris was there I got that's where I met Chris and And there was about 40 to like 300 and it was just crazy I mean it was this renaissance of people that were like Screaming to get out of the box about this thing and and and Damon I just did a whole podcast where we tried to explain what happened and We accidentally came up with a loose taxonomy called cams culture automation measurement and sharing and And really we were just trying to explain what what was this thing we saw and and it has kind of stuck now It like total loose taxonomy, you know culture It's about I always say that you know without the sea forget everything else Some people say cams not ams automation measurement and sharing so we did that And and I wrote I was at Opscode at the time chef now. I'll always called Opscode. Sorry. I wrote this blog article But again kind of stands the time I always get a little kick when I see somebody tweet Hey, have you seen this blog post? It's what Davos? It's where I kind of described cams So but what I learned over the last year and a half or so I mean, you know I become a kind of I I'm like a junkie of different things like complexity is something I'm very interested in complexity and infrastructure and So I think a lot about loops, you know Oota loops and cyber feedback loops and all those kind of things and I've got a lot of books if That you'll see if you want to learn more about those things But I realized that something that Damon and I missed early on is cams was really a feedback loop And and so, you know, what am I telling you that if you hear cams? I would say I'm gonna redescribe it now it it is culture, which is really improvement So continuous improvement it is delivery, which we you know You're gonna hear a lot about continuous delivery or you already have continuous learning is measurement Continuous collaboration and it is a cybernetic feedback in loop in that your culture truly feeds your automation Don't bother if you don't understand your culture your measurement is the measurement of how successful How are you measuring? What are you doing? And then what you do is you share the results you share them externally You come to dev ops days and you talk about them Or you share them internally where you're trying to build more people into or bringing people into the fold actually target Is a very interesting company? They are to me one of the most advanced and a large-scale what would be considered legacy enterprises They're doing incredible things with dev ops and and they have this dev ops dojo and they literally think in fact their quote is we have a culture and Sharing sandwich here Actually, you know taking the cams idea But as acronyms go or taxonomies a good friend of mine Dave Zwieback Recently actually beginning a year did this blog article and what I did when I said this presentation I sent out to a whole bunch of people said hey Tell me your top three things and I have a slide for all those people in the end Tell me your top three things that you think is important in dev ops and and Dave reminded me of this presentation He did which this ice and I think it's brilliant because I like this Taxonomy loose taxonomy again Inclusivity complexity and empathy and he explains that in his blog when I'm gonna walk you through You know in other words We're getting better at our craft You know me and Damon were a bunch of just you know drunk not really but you know on a podcast Hey, what happened last week? You know and and but you know let's come out with this thing called cams You know and now you got guys like Dave Zwieback and lots of other people that are actually pinpointing a lot Finer of what we're doing here, and we're learning we're in a feedback loop ourselves, right? and so inclusion Do not make fun of that graph. I'm learning are and that's my first attempt at a cool graph and are so Screw you if you make fun of it. It took me a lot of work to get the two sides and normalize the data So I'm pretty proud of myself But anyway the data So if you look at I took the the amount of dev ops days we have per year And I took the the dev ops survey which I'll talk about a little bit And so we started off at one in Ghent. We had about three or four in 2010 and then in 2012 2013 we took off We went up to like 16 or 19. I think and now this year. There's gonna be 25 So we are building a bigger audience in fact It heartens me when I hear at these dev ops days in the early days, you know around 2000 to 2010 2011 you'd ask how many people this is your first dev ops days And you'd you'd see about a third less than a third of people raise their hand About a year and a half ago. You started seeing about 50 50 now I'm seeing 80 90 first timers in almost every dev ops stage, right? So we are definitely do we're building inclusivity here and then the The dev ops survey it's in its fourth year, so I had to have a couple of zeros, but in 2013 It was actually a thousand respondents and it was the first real interesting one I thought the no disrespect to puppet and my good friend Jean Kim, but the first couple I was like, yeah All right, you know you surveyed like fit 500 people you serve right now, but then in 2014 last year it got real They brought in a data scientist The data really started showing there were 10,000 respondents in this year 20,000 people responded so you know in the early days of dev ops We had these kind of guesses like no ice or dev ops I started my career in the enterprise right and when I early days that I'm like oh my god This is gonna be great for the enterprise next year. Oh, it's gonna be great next year It's gonna be great and and I couldn't really do I can walk in large enterprise I'm saying you're doing it wrong. I don't say really doing it wrong But you know there's a better way, but I had no data and in 2014 was the first time There were two data points there that another one. I'll show you later Which is something called the dev ops enterprise summit But where we actually could say people are doing it and let me show you the results of what they're doing Diversity we in the beginning it was an all boys club and not by design It just was that way and then for many years I there was a Domenica D. Agonis She's brilliant woman. I love her. She's the the can band princess if you will she would be that I mean there were other people but literally I would always think that poor Domenica around all these dopey men And and what we've seen is diversity in lots of ways and now we've got core organizers like Bridget Comerot We've got Jennifer Davis who they reference her book. She runs the silicon fact I've handed off my silicon valley. It was hard for me to give it away, but she runs it brilliantly now Just a lot of Sasha here, you know locally We've got just we're really getting better at this diversity thing the code of conduct the first time We had code of conduct was last year 2014 in Pittsburgh I'm pretty sure that was the first one Andrew Schaefer. God bless him He basically was the first one, you know, somebody can correct me, but that's the first one I remember and now it's everyone and we're serious Annie harassment And I'm gonna talk a little about security now how we've we've been able to bring in other groups security network So the how many people are rugged that was rugged, right? So some of the hardcore security people on the planet and and Jean Kim is the maven here So Jean is part of both communities Jean likes to say or he does say that I'm the one that finally convinced them that DevOps wasn't a sham And once he figured that out he actually took that to the security community and primarily gentlemen They Josh Corman who I think is amazing and and when he put the night ball went off when Josh says this This thing he says he told Jean when he finally figured out DevOps is real that this is the end of security as we know it Right and you have to follow I don't have time to go into the details We had Josh Corman on our podcast just recently hasn't gone up It'll be up in a few days, but they created the rugged manifesto And it's you know rugged org and you know here I recognize that my code will be attacked by talent and persistent adversaries who threaten our physical economic and national security One last thing about Josh Corman. He I'm passionate. He's passionate about saving lives So he sees security and security in the war so it's a software eat in the world as a life-and-death problem There's something called gauntlet shout out to James Wicket local organizer in Hey, the hand went up and out in the Austin gang and It's using cucumber for security. I mean basically Figuring out heart bleed with cucumber right like like that's cool All right, Josh Corman who I mentioned is on this mission me and him have given a presentation together at DevOps The DevOps Enterprise Summit and we're gonna do good guy bad guy. I'm gonna do why why container is awesome for Immutable delivery immutable infrastructure if you want to talk about that later We I can and and that's gonna say wait a minute John That's a black hole and and and and he's gonna talk about something called supply chain and it's really interesting It comes from Deming. I'm a big Deming fan. He's a big Deming fan and we're talking about how do you? The problem is you got open source is awesome But the unawesomeness of open source is this is a supply chain nightmare Right, you think you write 300 lines of code There's really a million lines of code behind that and so there's things like heart bleed and there's basically shell shock And there's there's really nasty things effect Verizon that the Verizon does a report every year on vulnerabilities in 95 what do you hear this I got this from Josh 95 percent of all the compromises in 2014 We're basically Ten known CVEs vulnerabilities Here's where it gets you worse eight of those ten. We're over ten years old Right so Josh is trying to save the world From open source and supply chain is about minimizing Minimizing your vendors and quality control. It's pure Deming So he's thinking about like if you're gonna use the logging framework and open source pick one Stabilize on a particular version and more importantly and they will dig that we're gonna really talk about about is a bill of materials And everything you built so in other words my saving grace for immutable delivery is that if you have a bill of material in that artifact that Is delivered as immutable in the if you have no idea what I'm talking about please get me later But when you deliver it in the infrastructure, it has a bill of material very much like what Toyota did and if you read this book You'll realize why the white Toyota just beat the hell out of Chevy vault So that was the I inclusivity The C is complexity How many people have so here's the thing right a few years ago You had a couple of companies that were massively scalable extremely complex infrastructures You have Google you have Facebook. There's a short list Today, there's hundreds. I will argue by the end of this decade. There'll be thousands Right. So so we need to look for who's dealing with complexity in the right way. How many people have heard of chaos monkey? So yeah, just about everybody good good. So I don't have to explain it. I say like a minute the But you don't get to chaos my I had Adrian Cockruff on a Dallas podcast. You don't get to Basically killing live production servers Unless you have a resilient infrastructure And I've talked a lot to Adrian about this like how do you get the chaos monkey from zero? How do you go zero six zero to chaos monkey Adrian likes to said so you're cockroach is the person who is most credit for the architecture of Netflix and Netflix Well, you hate him a lot of them They have built probably the most premier architecture for scalable infrastructure as we know it today I will take any arguments for somebody who's doing it better not saying there isn't but What he did he said, you know, when he when you try to congratulate him He'll say you know John what I did is I took the right book and gave it to the right person and So if you've ever read Mike Nagar it's release it Like that's not here. Is he he's from this area? Oh, I'd love if he's here. Nope darn it The there's something called circle breaker patterns in there And it's a really interesting idea of how to do infrastructure at scale If you know just like we do circuit breakers in our house We don't like blow up everything and turn it off when this thing gets overloaded So it's a pattern what you how you develop infrastructure such that when this circuit breaker, this is just the only thing that gets isolated All the other transactions and you model how that that allows you to get to an environment where you can do things like Chaos monkey the other book that he recommends to people and he says that this was in another book He passed to somebody is Sydney Decker's drift into failure. I I you know if anybody how many people follow John Osbach Right, you know a fair amount like you should all follow John Osbach. All right find out who he is start following him John is a big fan of Sydney Decker and a lot of people who talk about About human safety human factors the Sydney Decker is not a computer scientist He's the one that gets called in when a baby dies at a hospital to find out what the human factors were that caused that He's the one when they're in fact his first gig was that airline fatality in South America that had an Airbus and it act And it actually Autopilot recorrected the pilot's directions to come back hit him out. That was that's how he got into writing these books How many people heard Mark Burgess? Not a whole lot. How many people heard a chef? And puppet Right, so there would be no chef or puppet without Mark Burgess He he designed and developed this this idea He's a physicist who turned into a computer scientist Who basically had to solve a problem because they asked him to take care of the computer systems at a university he was at and And he thinks a lot about complexity that book is a hard book to read I am telling you let me say this if you know what a plank constant is You'll have a blast if you don't know what a plank constant is You are going to be googling that shit out of every other word in that book, but either way It's a fantastic book and I told him that should be a college Curriculum that book. It's an amazing book if you want to understand complexity and then the last book I read is This gentleman Jeff Susna. This is a really really good book short read. You don't need to Google everything He explains it really well. I just finished reading it. I love it I mean, I I think he put he explained cybernetics to me. I didn't really understand it fully It I can't tell you so there are a lot more books But and if you say John, I ain't reading any of those you're out of your mind. Go ahead redesigning delivery Another thing since now you're saying oh my god, please get this guy at the stage. He's killing me Can Evan and don't you love the spelling can Evan the Dave Snowden a Welsh from well Spelling I'm gonna spend too much time. It's really interesting. I'm seeing some really smart people implement this There's great discussions. I'm still trying to find a place for it. I get it. It's how it's a framework for dealing with complexity The short version is there are four quadrants. There are things like known-known things that you can look at Categorize and react other things that are basically kind of known unknowns You sense then you had allies. You can't really categorize. They're not really categorizable In fact, maybe they turn into obvious after repeated you move into complex, which is Where they're these are emergent things emergent patterns again We're all talking about complexity here varmints where they start getting up to servers that are unmanageable by people And then finally chaotic, which is your kind of black swan your you know Metaphorically your ten sigmas those kind of things. It's a very interesting pattern and framework for complexity and then finally the e in ice is empathy Michael talked about just a little bit. He talked about the Inclusion and empathy So it's funny, you know going back to me and Damon trying to figure out what DevOps was and in fact all that the original people who were involved in the discussion early on we knew culture was a big part of it, but But the like dev and ops right that's an empathy story But it took Jeff Susna the author that I described he wrote a blog article at the beginning. I think in 2014 Yeah, and and he said that the essence of DevOps is his empathy and it was a brilliant article in fact Tim O'Reilly retreat I'm like, man, I just read a blog article at Tim O'Reilly retreats You know that just that's the thing that you can do that. You've made it right the But it was a great articles like really be honest with I was a little jealous like you know Why didn't I think of that? Right? But um, but but it was brilliant and and again back to Zwiebrak They've we back turning this into an acronym because this is important It's how we think about you know again Michael's discussion this morning about how we think about what we're doing here today You know, are we listening and learning? Right? You know, you know early on we you know, we talked about like how do we? Preach to how do we build prescriptive models for DevOps or B gene? Damon jazz a bunch of people talked a lot. I learned a lot actually from from you Chris Some of the things in an upcoming book are finally gonna come out that you that I like I directly learned from you The Chris has been my mentor for many years. We also use he's one of the unsung heroes in this in this space that doesn't get as much credit as some other people do but Embedded engineers he is one of the guys invented this The idea of putting somebody from you know just whatever but the model most commonly known once you you took an ops person And you just put them in the devs team. They become part of the stand-up routine. That was a forced form of empathy I mean one of the early stories Chris told me like somebody raised their hand and say they'd say well Let's put the file directories like this and the one guy go. Yeah, you know, you can do that But it's gonna piss those guys off Right like whoa whoa and they didn't really care, right? This is somebody pointing out to them like if you did it this way. Oh, okay, we did it that way Blameless post mortems another hour-long subject days. We back does a three-day course on it It's a very important Okay, but I had 35 but we're good safety culture This is important to safety culture. There's a lot. We're talking about this it goes back to Sydney Decker What John Osborne is talking about Dr. Woods is a if you look at some of the velocity Presentations over the last couple years. We've they've injected some really interesting again Not it people talking about other interest sheet industries that have successfully built a mindset of this safety culture I got some slides on it a little bit But the end is that empathy is not this is not really a feedback loop But empathy is a core part of inclusion and complexity right in fact that you know in terms of collusion It's about listening and learning right. It's about Complexity it's about cybernetics or feedback loops and learning Let's get this kind of learning thing. The Western model is pretty interesting. I'm getting tight on time. This is in the DevOps survey It's kind of rephrased this Ron Westroom. I learned this actually from Jez Humble. Actually It's it's the three types of organizations pathological bureaucratic and generative you can see I think like you know The messenger is shot in a pathological messengers are tolerated messengers are trained in fact I think failure is another interesting failure is covered up Bureaucratic is organization is just a merciful in fact Sydney Decker talks a lot about just culture like we as human beings are Like so stuck in this just culture mindset that everything has to be weighed And it's so hard for us to get into kind of blameless post-mortem and thinking about Justice has no part of this. It's about learning and understanding. So when things go wrong Our human nature is to go blame somebody even though we say they never absolutely don't blame anybody We're all like the truth of the matter. We still kind of navigate to there And and we need to like just punch and punch our brains to think about what in this way I think Decker is so important Hey The Phoenix project how many people have heard of Phoenix project excellent great For four years three and a half years Jean myself Patrick the bar Jez Humble and John Have been working on his book. We've had some full starts October. It's finally coming out Right. So it's always been designed as the prescriptive guide for this book people always ask well. I read the book Jean It's awesome. How do I do it? And it's empathy because that's a novel right that is also a novel right so we in there We were seeing a perspective of characters in a data center that looks very much like ours You know like hey, I know that guy. I know that person right then everybody who reads the book It's like they tell Jean like did you sneak into my company? You know Interesting enough. It's actually a rewrite of somebody called Ellie go rat who years ago. Everybody would say the same thing Ellie go rat Burnout, I don't have a whole lot of time. I we maybe we can have an own session on this I wrote a blog article the beginning of this year About a suicide in the LA DevOps community that just hit me off-guard. I Almost cry now when I even explain it. I don't have time to explain it It and all I did is write an article about it And it just can't open a severe sore that we have in our industry and I got hundreds and hundreds of letters and it now the good news is velocity runs a burnout panel because of that We might actually do a burnout survey We're talking about things that might save lives. I think it's pretty cool All right onto the doubt survey The in 2014 I said that was the most in my opinion most significant first a different one We prove things we already knew job satisfaction is key indicated organizational performance I think performance is a better advantage organizational culture is one of the strongest indicators IT performance I love that right and here are things that we found in high performance right high trust cross-functional share in 2014 we also found some interesting things that people who deploy 30 times So what the comparison was is some genes been doing for years is high performance versus low performance And and so one of the things that the results of the survey and you have to take it with a grain of salt But I'll take those grains that that high performance did 30x more time Deployments than low performance And so the thing that always and for those you knew the DevOps the thing that people think about is these counter-intuitive Monuments like if I if I do like 30 deploys a day or 50 boys the guarantee is gonna break and what we have and we knew That wasn't true and Eric Reese stated this years ago the lean startup dude But we found in the 2014 that you were basically if you you were third people who were 30 times more deploys Then low performers were 3x more successful in those changes and Their mean time the repair which is a key indicator of how could you are at complexity or 48 times better? But this was this is where it goes nuts in 2015 The the frequency and the deployment lead time didn't change those are constants But the organ that the change success rate went up to 60x and the meantime there is a hundred sixty eight percent So we are getting really good at this stuff And this is some other slides. It's in the report. I have all links to this Blameless post-mortem share responsibilities. These are what we found in high performers are ending up with the devops Enterprise so another topic I want to talk about so I told you early on when I first saw this devops thing in Ghent And then we ran it in and LinkedIn in 2010 I you know, I said to myself be coming from an enterprise background that oh my god This has to happen in the enterprise and I waited and I waited and then You know, this is my first milestone which was Heather McMillan and Ross Clayton from Target This last year at Minnesota gave this presentation Devon meets up So Ross's ops and Heather is dev and they showed they wasn't like pretty and perfect. It was hard It was broken. It was messy, but they were doing devops in a basic, you know massive legacy infrastructure Right and they would do in it like they were moving the ball and then later that year You know the big argument that you have a lot of people is yeah enterprise can do devops on but they're gonna have to do it Different and I like bullshit You know and I get into large arguments with people in fact Damon I think it's in more arguments than I do I've stopped arguing but I knew I told Jean I said when we do this devops enterprise summit. We did the first one last year We were asking for a CFP for only people who did enterprise and had enterprise devops stories And we got 200 respondents. I would say about 50 of them were vendors But a hundred well, let's say about a hundred were vendors the first year and a hundred or like hardcore You know Macy's Barclays a Pittsburgh National Bank Target Nordstrom Disney and they were real stories and they weren't doing it different We had we had the 2015 in fact target runs internal DevOps days. They're running a fourth one now They weren't for they have to throttle it now. They've had 400 the last one They could easily have a thousand people in an internal DevOps days So they would basically have 3x what we have in an internal DevOps days So this is the enterprise summit and then 2015 which is gonna happen this November. We got about 250 respondents I would say 200 are We're serious enterprise devops stories and here's the thing like literally Me and Jean kind of virtually blinked at each other when we saw this the two respondents one was Sherman Williams And the other one was Western Union. My heart was like like it doesn't get any more to me No, no disrespect to anybody who might work for those companies But when those two companies show up at a DevOps enterprise You know and they're telling their DevOps story and Sherman Williams That's the paint company that's down the road for me or or a Western Union. Does anybody I'm not I'm getting nasty. Does anybody even use them anymore, right? I'm getting really close to the end Jean did an amazing thing in April He invited 30 people to Portland to do a two-day working session a lot of them were the speakers at last year's DevOps Enterprise Summit The idea is to create Impact for change for the enterprise We set up five working groups. I was part of wanted I was party actually demystifying DevOps Industry industry leaders. We're gonna publish this information at the DevOps Enterprise Summit It's all gonna be open for everybody if you want to know more about it. It's still the reason why it's not public right now It's still work in progress. So it's really really interesting stuff and you know metrics security test automation Cameron hate been just an amazing work for Gartner. This is the Gartner hype cycle You know, I'm usually not a great fan of Gartner But Cameron hate was at the 2010 DevOps days is one of the pure souls when it comes to DevOps from Gartner He's been involved with it He's actually taken a lot of information from people like Patrick myself Jean Damon and used it in his presentation So he's asked for guidance Classically not how Gartner does things He sent me this. This is the July 2015. Guess where we're at folks. Yeah, the peak of inflated expectation So if you know the hype cycle and I asked them, you know, are there any examples of technologies that miss the trough of this illusion it? You know, maybe oh Yeah, technology I Do a lot of presentations on immutable delivery immutable infrastructure I think it's an interesting way to think in fact Netflix kind of you know, I don't say invented But the first time I ever saw it we see some really interesting companies like guilt and Yelp are doing this model The short version is developers can build immutable stacks and infrastructure on their laptop Which are binary immutable and push them through the chain green if they go green all the way They're actually immutable. They're the same bits and bytes that it's a different way of thinking about infrastructure May not it definitely not a one-size-fits-all But I will argue that there is this convergence So I've been doing this guns some of the keynotes I've done early this year guns germs and steel if you have read that book It's awesome book But I did the I do it as containers grab their gravity microservices We've got this idea that this is a this is a beautiful convergence what we're seeing is microservices Technology and data gravity real shortly probably people saying what the hell is data gravity Dave? Dave McQuarrie he basically coined this term a couple years ago in IT. We tend to move data To compute we're moving into a world with data. It's too big The IOT we need to start thinking about how do we move compute to data the reason why? Containerization the instantian time is milliseconds right we can start thinking about swarming data around I mean swarming compute around data It gets really interesting Adrian Cole Adrian cock off. Sorry. I would definitely recommend going seeing any presentation. He's done in the last two years I'm stealing a slide from him. You know faster cheaper safer. That's what I'm talking about here, right? It's about safer The you know you build it you run it change one thing at a time These are the core principles in DevOps. These are the people that I want to give a shout out when I set out Hey, I'm gonna give a presentation on the State of Union. Do you got any input? So what I've just done is taking a lot of their input a lot of people said security security security So Adrian Cole Cole brilliant man He's he Jay clouds. Anyway, I love everybody on that screen and here's all the links that I'm done. Thank you very much So when you're talking about the state of DevOps today What are your kind of thoughts on these approaches towards DevOps certification or a governing board or the right way to do the DevOps? You know, I have some good friends that are part of that certification. I think certifications shite You know be honest with you I don't you know, I didn't get to talk about network and what's going on network or on DevOps, right? Like there are companies now they look for they look at your Cisco certification And they think I don't want you to come in or do our network stuff because you probably don't know Ruby You probably don't know DevOps principles, right? So Certifications are pouring at times. I'm not a big fan of it. The group that's doing this are genuine They think about Deming and itms. So in general my opinion, it's a waste of people's time So thank you. That's a great question