 That's why I have her friend say it was blow blotcher and see. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I love this. I want to concentrate on the neighbor. Okay. What I want you to notice is even when he's controlling the TV, his eyes are actually on what's and you'll see his eye movement in his head movement is following what's his movement. So I would suggest the neighbor already knows this is odd behavior. Okay. This is a rhythm that's either odd for what's or very likely as well, just odd to have in his space. Because my guess is he will be able to smell the fear. I mean, literally, he will be having an old factory response to the molecules that the lactic acid and the uric acid that is a byproduct of that fact leaving because of the adrenaline that's running around there. He'll literally be able to smell that. But you'll see his eyes are watching him even as he's doing some other operation there. So the neighbor is onto him around that, really special to see, I think. And I just want to pick up on the end of, again, another redirect at the end around the medical issue, a potential medical issue. It's just like, like somebody's ill, look over there. Again, classic redirect on that one. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so you guys have hit a lot of this. Mark, I'm going to go back and talk for a minute about that smell. Because having worked with prisoners most of my life, I can tell you that there was a smell you can't mistake. I have no sense of smell left these days, but I could still smell that because it's more than a smell. It's a heavy feeling at the back of your sinuses, the back of your throat when you're around people who are in the heightened fight or flight enough that they're starting to produce all those chemicals. Interestingly, when people go through ketosis and they go through starvation and all this stuff, a person's biology makes the smell. So some people would smell like perfume. Some people smell like alcohol. Some people smell like flowers. It's just a different smell depending on who you're around. While that might seem stupid to you, somebody on here who's a scientist who knows all that biology, tell us down below what causes all that because I'm telling you it does. I've had plenty of people under high duress, and I've seen enough of them to know that the smell is there. But that heavy fear smell is certainly there. So mark your dead on with that. The other one, this guy who's his neighbor said he never did this thing. I watched an interview with him. He said he never did this thing. So yeah, of course, he knows this guy is turned. This guy's turned and is running, and the dogs are about to go after him. And so it'll be interesting to watch. He's doing a ton of adapters. He's doing whatever it takes. He's dancing around and trying to get rid of all that nervous energy. That phone again, for him, is that nervous energy. He can touch that. And that phone is bigger. Guys, in our culture, you can't miss how powerful this mark kids you're dead on that you see them touching this thing constantly. It's a reason there's screen time. It's addictive to people. It's that powerful reason you track screen time and know how much you've done it. So all of that energy has to go somewhere. And quite candidly, I've not weighed in on this guy, but his level of scumbaggery is off the scale. This guy, I'm certain he choked his wife. We know he choked his wife to death. He said how he did it. I think then he went about killing his children. He knew he had to kill his children and say that his wife had killed the children. He killed her. That was his story. And then only later does he come out and say, no, I killed my wife, then took my children alive to a place and killed him. This guy is among some of the worst. And I think that's why you see Chase is very frustrated talking about him and Scott and Mark. I mean, guys, this is a level you don't usually see. And these people know that this guy's done that. This is one of the worst body language things we've seen because it's one of the worst guys and one of the worst crimes you'll see. Okay, were you guys just friends or anything else? Yeah, we were good friends. Yeah. Was there ever any relationship or anything that developed between you guys? Yeah, I mean, we dated, you know, I mean, what's this all about? It's relating to his wife. Okay. Okay, did you know her? Not really. I mean, I knew that he married years ago. Did you ever meet her? God, I don't know. Do you know who she was or anything? Well, I think it's been a long time ago. I may have met her. Geez, you know. Yeah, I think there's a lot of distancing language here. So there's a lot of not really, then again, not really. It was years ago. Did you ever meet her? She says, God, I don't know. They're more distancing. It's been such a long time ago. More distancing. I may have met her more distancing. And I want to tell you that there's in my training, I teach there's four things that guilty people go through that after the crime has been committed, they go through gravity of just a realization of what's going on. They go through rationalization. Well, I did it because of this. I had to do it. Then they go through projection. And it's somebody else's fault because or it's this environment or parents, whatever. Then they go through stage four, which is denial planning, planning some kind of a story on what's going on. And here's a cool tip that no matter if you're talking to your kids or somebody at work, that suspects will typically reveal a few things right away in the interrogation, not just their baseline. One, they're going to show you their denial strategy because they've been going through this denial strategy. And they'll typically reveal the theme of how they processed guilt psychologically. And here we're seeing and hearing her use time as a cleanser of sins and memory. So we're seeing a lot of distancing right off the bats, which is her denial strategy. And time has cleansed so many things. So this is what she's gone through as she's starting to have this conversation. Keep in mind, she was tricked into coming into this building and then kind of got this thing dropped on her. So we're seeing a whole lot of stress right off the beginning. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm a little bit different than you guys and what the arms mean, but we'll get that in just a second or what the flailing around the table means. But we're hearing a lot of stress. This is like you said, she's been surprised. So here she's realizing what's happening to her and the distancing we're hearing and the denial stuff that Chase is talking about. She's she's structuring her story at that point. She's she doesn't know what kind of information they have. She doesn't know how much they have. So she's staying back and she's looking at the field and seeing what's coming. And she's grabbing these parts and she's taking them over here and she's backing them off while she collects this information because that's how she's got to construct her story that works for her. That doesn't make her get in trouble with these guys, right? These and the greatest questions where he says, did you know, did you know who she was or anything? How open-ended can you get? That's that's perfect. I think that that's awesome. And so she has to say something. She's trying not to say anything when she tries, but she has to say something. This and what we're hearing when she when she hits her hand on the table, it's not an illustrator. It's it's an adapter because that's as she she has at this point she has nothing. She's really far up. She's right in the face and stuff. She starts flailing on her hands. We're going to see this throughout here. So think of it as an adapter, not as much an illustrator or and Mark could be right. Maybe it's a territorial thing, but I think it's an adapter because when she hits those things, she feels it and that releases some of that pent up stress or energy and she's got tons of it because she's she's not quite in a panic state yet because it's just hitting her. She's like, oh no, she's deciding. She's about to figure out what's going on with her. She opens her thing. No solid denials. She doesn't say no to anything and we hear the word think for the first time here and we'll hear throughout this because I think that's what happened. I'm not sure. Oh yeah, that that could see saving these. She's saying think so she can have room to to backpedal and go back and save herself. Oh yeah, you're right. I remember now. So she's collecting all this information. That's her goal right now is to get all the information she can so she can structure a story that goes with what they're talking about so she won't get get in as much trouble. And I think that I think they knew they they had her right out of the gate. They they had the DNA so they knew it was her. But when when this started, I think it's it all well. We got it out. I bet you the first break they took where they went out. He said, dude, we got this one. This is where this is this is simple. And I'm sure if she had listened, she could hear him giggling in the next room. That's how that's how that's how much that's how confident I think they probably were with this. And the ransom note was already written. I believe it was. I mean, it's very unusual for a ransom to be this long. From what we understand from professionals we've talked with that after someone commits such a crime as this thing, you know, get the heck out of there. We have another great case of the missing perpetrator. Everyone here has talked to somebody who's done some stupid or bad stuff. And in nine out of 10 of those cases, those people don't want to talk about the one who committed it. They don't want to talk about the perpetrator who did this. And as the video starts or as this clip starts, we see some false confusion, but it's confusion for agreement. It's looking confused with my face in hopes that it becomes contagious to the other person. And when she says someone did this, not kidnapper, not murderer, not potential rapist, it's someone. And when she says such a crime as this, it's not any of the harsh words, kill or murder or whatever else we could, we could be saying. If that happens to a person's family member, there is a 99.9% chance they have no problem. And they're even very vocal about using that word to evoke emotion out of the person listening to them. If you think about the phrase, I did not have sexual relations with that woman. The same thing happens. Instead of saying sex, we change it to sexual relations. And when she says at the very end, get the heck out of here, she actually does with her eyes. She escapes the conversation as fast as she possibly can in hopes for a subject change. Pardon me? Are they still there? The people? What happened? What happened? Who shot who? You came home and found who shot? People that did the shooting. Let me talk to Eric. Who was the person that did the shot? My mom and dad? Hold on a second. Yeah, so let me give you a little hand about one of the ways that I go about working out where the red flags might be, how to read body language in general. I'm just looking for big changes, like what I would call significant change. Now, who decides what significant is? I do. I just think, well, that's a big difference. And there's a massive difference between, as Scott was saying, that yes, police at the start, which is kind of the way I go. Hello, Mark Bowden, expert in human behavior and body language. It's very cool. And then suddenly, as Scott said, it ramps up into what the other person on the line says is hysteria, it's hysterical. So it goes from very calm to hysterical. I would suggest that is significant. Now, what do I do when there's this moment of significant change? Because what I'm doing there is consciously trying to do what our instinct does, which our instinct is just trained to look out for significant change. Something happens in your peripheral vision, significant, you'll jump away or your eyes will be drawn towards it. Significant change in volume happens around you. Your head will turn. Check out what it is. What I'm doing is looking through this recording and going, where is the most significant change? And that's it for me, going from hello, police to hysteria. Now, what does it mean? I never know what it means. I just think, well, something's up there and that's what I need to investigate. That's what we need to talk about. Why are we so calm at the start? What happened during that that got you so hysterical? I want to know why the significant change happens there. That's a way of starting to ask people questions. So when you see body language, when you see non-verbal communication and you see this moment of significant change, that's the bit you want to go into. You don't know why it's happening. You're going to find out from people by just asking questions. So significant change. That's what I've got for you there. Hey, and Mark Bowden just defined baseline for you. Okay. That's perfect. She says she killed to protect herself. You say you are not a serial killer. I'm not a serial killer and I'm not a murderer. I know that when I die, I'm going to heaven and I'm going to have Jesus right beside me. And I'm going to have them on Judgement Day in front of me and they're going to pay for their wrongdoing. I am innocent. It was self-defense. The legal system didn't believe you. I do not regret it. Do not regret it. They were going to kill me. I killed them. That is a normal thing to do because a human thing. I did the right thing or I wouldn't be here today. Okay. Chase, what do you got? I think her level of conviction here is very common in serial killers, but rarely in women. And we're going to talk about that a little bit later. Why women become serial killers and what the beliefs are and how they've changed since the 1970s to today. The blink rate which indicates how focused she is or how focused any person is on something that's in front of them and increasing blink rate would mean that someone's becoming stressed. Lower blink rate typically indicates focus. Her blink rate is nearly zero. So she is hyper-focused because the person in front of her is not a threat. The violating that person or violating that person's trust on camera where everybody's going to see it is probably the threat that is making her become this focused. So we see her doing two things here which are common with criminals. The first one is socializing, which is this is a normal thing. Anyone would have done this in the same situation. And the second is distancing. So we see a lot of distancing language in here, but I'm just going to focus on one word. If she was the victim of a horrific crime and she's trying to tell her story, what she is clearly right here, she's using the word wrongdoing instead of the name of the crime. She doesn't use torture or hurt or rape or any of these horrific words that she could be using to help paint this picture. She uses the word wrongdoing, which we typically were more likely to see in people who are being deceptive. And I think this is a perfect example of lying versus deception versus delusion versus something that many experts might call a false memory. And I think we're going to get a little deeper into this as we go deeper into these videos, but that's all I got for this one. Do you ever met his wife? I may have. Do you remember her name or anything? Or what she did for a living or where she worked or anything about her? Well, I think she, I'm going to say that. I think she was a nurse. Man, I can't even remember how he said he met her. I mean, it's been so long ago. Well, let me ask you, did you go to their wedding? No, I didn't go to their wedding. No, I did not go to their wedding. Couldn't even tell you what year he got married. I mean, it's been a million years ago. Do you ever remember if you ever talked to her? Because it seems like a lot of you who were at the school at UCLA, you guys kind of were friends during and after school. So I'll give you a tip here from an interrogator standpoint. Any interrogation school you go to, I don't care what it is. They're going to tell you the more officers are in the room, the less likely your chances of confession are. I don't think so in this case. She's used to being a senior officer, and she would automatically feel superior to one person. So they teach you in police interrogation school, don't wear your gun, don't wear your badge, don't be in a uniform. It's your better off to go in there and civilian clothes. But I don't think that's true in this case. One thing we're doing or that we're seeing here is a fight-or-flight response called threat tracking. And these are the rapid head turns that you're seeing in the room. When she responds to one interrogator, then back to the other one, rapidly tracking of potential threats in the room. And we see this constant eyebrow flash. When you're up trying to communicate, I'm extremely cooperative and innocent. But we see some rapid blinking, almost an eye flutter during this question response when she's starting to speak. And I think this is one of those times when that's the equivalent of you shutting off all the apps, taking up space in your phone and trying to just focus on the one thing. And when she says, I didn't go to the wedding, I think that was a truthful response. But when she says it was a million years ago, she's calling back to her strategy of time being a cleanser here. And when the interrogator asks, did you ever talk to her, there's a fear micro expression and Chen boss movement at the same time, which you very rarely see. I'm sorry, I'll speak for myself. I have very rarely seen in just about every interrogation video. And I think these exaggerated facial expressions and kind of this artificial recall is what I'll call it. They're like pretending to look down to think about something, what you see here. There are mitigation strategy that I think she has unconscious. A lot of the stuff we say when they're thinking about doing this, this and this, we're talking about unconscious processes, stuff that's not in our, within our awareness. So I think these false facial expressions are, I need to appear genuine, friendly, cooperative, and I am an expressive person. So I must be truthful. My face is all over the place. I'm expressing myself. It has to be truthful. Scott, what do you think about that? Did you tell your mother-in-law that she went to a friend's today? Yeah. Who's what friend? Who was she supposed to go to? When did she tell you that? All right, I'll go first on this one. In this one, we see him trying his best to read the room. He's trying hard because he's looking at everybody. And if you'll pay attention to that woman, which is that, which is his wife's one of his, her best friends, apparently, she knows he did it. She knows he did it just as sure as he's standing right there next to her. And when she looks at him, it's briefly, she just shoots over the looks back. She tries as hard as she can not to make eye contact with him. And when he does start looking over, you just see your arm go up and she starts goofing down with her. And she's also, she's not quite touching the superstar in the lodge. Which is something we know that people do when they're under an enormous amount of stress or something scares them or that type of thing, especially women, but she's really close. She's got her hand on her chest. She's really close with that. My favorite person this whole video is that detective in the purple shirt because man, that is the last thing you wanted. Somebody stand that close to you. Who's the cop? Not even looking at you, not paying attention, not doing anything. He's locked onto everything happening. But it's like, at this point, he's starting to, I'm getting the giggles because he's starting to feel the threat right there. It's the cop that was right and the one that asked him the questions that are putting it on him because there's so much space in there, so much time, so much time. And his grip on himself has tightened up so much. It's starting to look almost comical when he's doing that. Now, again, look at the one that's his wife's friend. She's got disgust on her face. Look at her face a couple of times. You'll see that the expression of disgust that the upper parts of her lip, or filthrum, comes up on this side of her nose and you can see that go up a little bit. And then when he's asked him the questions, he gives a short, curt, and fading facts questions. Not a whole lot of information there, really short. And I'll leave the other stuff for you guys because there's a whole lot in here. But you'll see as his grip goes tighter, that head starts coming down, almost like you're in pre-confession at that point. His head starts going down. He's tight like this and he looks like he's thinking about it. Because a lot of times you'll see him start rocking back and forth. That head will go down and then just they'll give you it all. He's not about to, but that sure does look like he's got that on his mind. Like I think it's too late. So he's feeling the threat. Again, his limbic system is just he's freaking out. I think at this point and he doesn't know what to do because he feels everybody in there. Look at him. She's leaning away from him and the other and the other detectives leaning away from him. Not he's not even giving him a look. Now he's looking over and just like, watch him. When we replay this, watch that detective. He's just standing there like he's waiting for something in a store or waiting for you to finish paying for something. That's how cool this guy is. And this team of cops, man, they're good. They're so good. Yeah. So I love the detective here because go back and take a look at him. The way his body is positioned, he should just fall over because his spine's twisted up his waist on one side. He's like, he'll bring his hands up. And he should just fall over, but he doesn't. He's perfectly still. He's got enough twists in the spine that if you're observing him, your brain goes, what on earth is going on in his head right now? In fact, when I used to work with models, we would work on poses in order to put as many twists as you could in the body because when the viewer looks at that, they think something psychological is going on. So he's kind of intriguing to look at. We see him do lip compression, which I think is withheld opinion there. He's thinking, he knows there's some complexity going on. We see that complexity in his body, but he has locked himself down because he doesn't want to give anything away. And I want you to look at him looking at what's out of the corner of his eye. He's picking up in his peripheral vision, I would say, the movement that's going on, the rhythm. Just to let you know something about the eye. You've got these cones in the center, which pick up color and definition. And then you've got rods, I think, on the outside, which are just doing black and white vision. And they really like to see movement. And they're looking for surprises. They're looking for something new to happen out the corner of the eye. And they pick up rhythm really, really well. That's why when you see a predator above or predator below, you're going to see it out your peripheral vision, first of all, and your brain's going to pick up a flash of movement. And if it's the right kind of rhythm, it'll trigger your fight-and-flight system and you'll jump out the way and then realize it's just a paper bag blowing in the wind. Because better to be safe than sorry, your brain is designed to pick up these rhythms of threat. I think he's picking up that rhythm out of the corner of his eye there. And then at the end, the officer who's talking, I want you to notice what I would call the cadence of his. So for me, musically, there's something different from rhythm and cadence or beat and cadence. For me in music, cadence is the distance between notes, rather than the rhythm or the pace or the beat of something. Listen to the notes of when did she tell you that? It goes all the way down. Instead of a question, when did she tell you that? Or a statement, when did she tell you that? Because he doesn't end on a straight cadence there, a straight, primal cadence, I suspect he doesn't believe this at all. Because if he believed it, he'd just be going, when did she tell you that? But he goes, when did she tell you that? He's not buying it at all. I think you've got three people in the room at the moment who don't buy any of this that's going on. And it's really early days, because I think the act, the crime was done just that morning. He's already dealt with the bodies, and now he's into this. I don't think he expected it to escalate this quickly. And I think it's showing up badly for him. He's panicked right from moment one, and people can see it, they can smell it, they can taste it. It's heavy and prescient in the room. He was arrested two days after he murdered his family. Right. So, Mark, you said you work with models. Did you work with Chase on his Vogue shoot? I will never give you the names of any of my clients. So I just can't answer. It's a what? It's a non-disclosure deal. But as to this specific phone call when you first made contact with the police, did you plan out what you were going to say to them? No. And I really don't remember exactly what I said other than reading this, but I know that I wasn't going to say that we were involved. Great stuff. I totally agree. There's a severe lack of emotion here. You see that there's no emotion on the face, which I'm going to talk about in just a couple of videos. I'm going to explain exactly what I think is going on without making a diagnosis. And I think the way that he pauses, when people say he paused, you know, this guy's being deceptive, this I think this pause was a display of deference to the opposing counsel for the interruption that had happened there for him saying right. And then he paused a little bit longer than he normally would. And that's what I think that was. This is mostly truthful. Scores A6 on the behavioral table of elements. This is the, I think the lowest score. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I saw truthful, too. I mean, he's got low blink rate. Here's the problem, guys. It's not like they're trying to hide. They premeditatedly murdered their parents with shotguns. So he's casually talking about a 911 call, of course. I mean, if you watch this entire thing, it's gritty. There's a lot of horrific stuff going on, not the least of which is murdering your parents with a shotgun. I mean, I was talking to somebody earlier, I was talking to Eric and he said, you know, it's not easy to go and call your brother and say, hey, what are you doing Friday night? You know, this is not a normal thing. And they just admitted among the most horrific things on earth to murdering their parents in premeditated fashion, going out buying shotguns with the intent. So he's not trying to hide the fact he called 911 and he didn't tell the truth. So there's no pressure. That's what we're seeing is low pressure. Even though it's a cross, even there on him, you see pretty good eye contact, not a high blink rate, open. The one thing that I would say is either raise your hands or sit on your hands, but don't do both because you get that false shrug because he's sitting on his hands and his arms would want to move. So his illustrators illustrating his points and thoughts are not there, but he certainly has good eye contact. He certainly looks like he's being honest and like you chase. I don't have your BTOE in front of me, but I would say the same thing. Low, low, low deception. Then Warno says she turned the table. He untied her. She got her gun and shot him four times. Well, let me ask you, in your opinion, did Richard Mallory deserve to die? Okay. For what he did to me, the way he tortured me and everything, yes, yes, he did. But how can I explain this? Yes, he did deserve to die, but the way I left him was so kind because the way he was going to leave me, I'm sure would not have been this way. He would have left me probably dismembered, scattered out in the woods. So you feel I left him with a rug over him so the vultures wouldn't get him. But you left him dead. That's right. Yeah, there's some larger head movement here while she's talking. There's more head movement, which is kind of a sales pitch here. Wanting some agreement. There's some lip licking going on here, which many would tell you is deceptive in its own, but we're looking for changes in behavior. We're looking for clusters of things that are unusual. And I agree, Mark, completely that there is a new narrative here that if I would have killed you, but then I stuck an ice cream cone in your hand, that's a whole different deal. That makes me a better person than Jeffrey Dahmer because I did the ice cream cone thing. He'd never did that. He cut people up. So there's a different level. And I think that's a different way that this person's seeing the world. And when people suffer abuse at a young age, they get very good from a psychological perspective at something called dissociation. And people, this is not a negative thing. People in the military are very good at this. People who are Olympic athletes are very good at dissociating from discomfort during training. But as a child going through these traumatic experiences, this dissociative process becomes a habit. And the habit of dissociation becomes a place where I'm going to retreat. Anything stressful happening to me, I can retreat into a place where I am separated from my normal self. And this normal self doesn't have to feel pain, guilt, shame, regret, or anything like that, or disgust about something that the other me is participating in. And I think that this is what we're seeing right here. We're starting to see the illustration of her dissociative process at work here. And now I'd like you to notice in this video, when we play this again, she's now using her left side to present positive information. She's talking about the rug and being rolled up in the rug and how what she did versus what he would have done to her. So if I'm seeing somebody always gesture one way to talk about negative things, and they look over here and they're gesturing this way when they're talking about how good they are or something that they enjoyed as the interrogator, I'm going to scoot over into the positive direction when I'm going to start talking to them about confessing. I'm going to lean that direction when I'm preparing to get them to confess to something. But that's it. So take note of that. If somebody looks or gestures a certain way when they're talking about negative stuff, you want to start scooting or leaning over in the opposite direction of that when you want to persuade them to do something, especially something that's not in their best interests, like confessing to a crime. Good luck out, Mrs. Ramsey. Your child's been killed brutally, and then someone writes out this way and says no. Why do you think that that's not feasible? Why do you think it was written before? Because I have been told by people who are experienced in this field that that is usually the way it happens. I have no previous knowledge about these kind of things, but we have been in conversation. We think about this every day. Every day. And we've sought out the top people in the field that know about how the criminal line works. And this is what we're going on. The profile that's in the book, all that information is not from John and from me. This is from people that know what they're doing. All right, Chase, what do you got? If you're watching this, do me the biggest favor of all time and watch this clip and only listen to her responses and see if somebody offered you a million dollars to figure out what she's talking about if you could figure it out. This is the most generalized, un-non-specific, non-committal answer I've ever heard in any interview, I think in my lifetime. It's those people, these people, these techniques, this agency, those agencies, these people, all arguments are arguments from authority or an argument on authority. So if you told me, oh, I think she's on drugs and my response would be, oh, where did you graduate pharmacology school? That's the argument of authority. And what they're doing is something called borrowing authority. So I am borrowing the authority of another agency or another group of people in order to make my story more believable or more palatable for people to like me more, which certainly lead to maybe an innocent claim at the end, but it would certainly lead to where I want somebody to start believing I'm going to wind up. Greg. Yeah, what you call borrowing authority, I call authority by association. And she doesn't just borrow it, she paid for it. She tells you, we have the experts. There's a status claim here and there's a resume statement of sorts there. I would say I paid for this expertise and I know. So I agree with you. There's that certainly up front. She swallows really hard at the beginning of this. Did you all see that? Just awkward. Now it's probably from the question before, but it's still there. She smiles awkwardly in the middle of this thing. I don't get that of all the things. It's kind of that condescending spot. Some of this is her baseline of snarkiness. I mean, it's just how she's wired, I think, but she is in the middle of a rambling to your point. I mean, there are not many questions and answers that are quite this messy, but she's rambling and running off into the quicksand and he rescues her. You see that when she said we. She has a word pattern about this every day. She has a word pattern shift that says we have been. And she's not said that up to now. Any weird word pattern like that. Not just non-committal, not just rambling, but it's a weird word pattern for her. Remember, she was a beauty queen. She was a pageant person. And presentation is everything to your point earlier. Even if you don't answer a question, you probably have a long, rhythmic process to it. So I would say, what are you talking about here? And I would probably be a little snarky back and push her a little bit and be critical. And I'd get what she's got. I guarantee you, she would go at me to tell me how dumb I am and go from there. During that time that you were seeing John, you know, was he acting kind of, kind of squirrely or kind of sneaking around when he'd hook up with you or anything like that to make you think, hey, you made it. He probably was. I mean, I mean, because from the impression I guess you've known him a long time. Well, let's see. From what? I met him in 78. No, I met him in school. I started UCLA in 78. So you know him well during that period of time. Yeah. I mean, was he acting squirrely? You know, I don't even remember where he was living then. You know, I. Okay. Chase, what do you got? So we see a chin boss movement and eyebrow flash to the extremes here combined. So weird. And it's that duality that you guys have been talking about the whole time. There's gross turtling movement, like a large gross movement. She instantly recalls the year that she met him. And some people might say, well, this is, you know, she has no trouble recalling the past, but it's also the year she started college. So I would discount that as some, some big data point. But she went from how he was acting to where he was living. For no reason. And this is a mitigation strategy that, that psychologists refer to as terror management theory. This is when we have an awareness of a potential catastrophic in injury that causes some unusual behavior for us as humans and some heightens our anxiety a whole lot. But within this, very quickly, we have a repetition of question, which is a four on the behavioral table of elements, a non answer statement, which is a four, a confirmation glance twice to both interrogators after the statement, not before, but after she made a statement, which is an eight and then ambiguity, which is another four. So she gets a score of 20 when 11 is a high chance of deception. So she's well into the ballpark there. She knows the guy was sneaking around. She knows that the other person didn't know. And I think we're seeing in the difference in facial tone there, Mark, as we can watch that difference at this point, it's noted as we go along, she flushes more and more. And at one point it's just plain flushing like you're talking about. But I think at this point, she's growing angry. And this type of personality, that's what happens to them. They get mad. They get all red faced. And if you look at her eyes, when someone's angry and they do the squint and I'm mad at you, that's one thing. When they look at that, but when you see those eyes, when you see the whites of their eyes, when they're acting angry, they're not acting. They're angry. She's angry at this point. And we're seeing, like Chase was saying earlier, when they ask you that question, her chin goes down and totally covers her neck. She's holding back information. She's a lot of stuff she wants to say and she wants to go off, but she can't because this is one of those times she can't because she's in trouble. And she's in an interrogation room and she's got to try to be cool and she's not pulling it off. That's what she's trying to do. So I think that's what a lot of the red faces is about, is from being angry. Then we see her eyes glazed over because she's dropping back into that personality. She's used her whole life when she gets in this spot and she's been in it a thousand times where she's trying to defend herself for something she's done from her anger. And that's, and so she's used to being here. And so her eyes glazed over and she just drops back into that and the animal part of her starts taking over and she just starts yapping at that point. Well, all these things she's telling these guys at that point. The lip compression that I, again, that lets us know she's holding back information that she wants, that she has, that she's not going to give and she's panicking. And we're seeing her get mad and we're seeing all these expressions of all these feelings that we're talking about these emotions we're talking about coming out on her face in blended expressions. Like Greg was saying, we're seeing, we're seeing, and Mark is saying, shoot, we all said it. We're seeing anger, happiness and frustration all blended together. Be happiness up here and anger down here, then anger up here or surprise up here and anger down here, all of these different things. That tells you a lot about a personality like that. That's why she's getting so mad. That's how she ended up killing that girl because she was mad. And she may not have gone over there to kill her, but I'll bet that's what ended up, especially if she ended up biting her because they had that DNA there that they talked about later on. So there was a big fight going on there too. And I bet you she went back out to the car and got that thing and tagged her, came back in the house and tagged her. I don't know what the details of it are, but I'll bet you that's what happened. I'll stop right there. Do you remember your earliest recollection of being frightened by one of your parents? Which parent? Your father? Yes. And what were the circumstances of this earliest memory of being frightened by your father? I was swimming. Do you remember where you were swimming? I was swimming at the, I believe it was called Ramapo. I'm not quite sure of the name. It was a lap pool. And what happened? Well, when I was in Muncie, I couldn't quite swim the 25-yard pool without breathing. And he wanted me to do it straight without breathing because that way you swim faster. And I couldn't do it. So he would train me to do it without breathing. And how would you do that? By grabbing my hair and dunking me under the water and then lifting me up and dunking me under the water again. Okay, Chase, what do you got? I think this is truthful. We have emotional recall right at the question. There's body narration. He's moving his hands. He's illustrating as Scott will put it. There's eyebrow flash, which I think is, I think both of them showing this eyebrow flash is trained submission or conditioned submission, especially to someone who is in a position of authority, like an attorney, a doctor, those types of people. So they, I'll talk about it in a second, but the suggestibility of an adult who was abused as a child is way increased. And it's his memory of the event. This brings the behaviors to the present moment. And this technique, what asking about these events brings the memories into the present. So the chemicals that were there, the feelings that were there are still very palpable and they're easier to bring in. And this is a technique a lot of times that attorneys can use on the stand to get someone in a vulnerable state by asking questions about something completely different. And then asking something challenging because I've accessed that vulnerable state first. And so this brings that up. And he used the word trained instead of abused. He never said abused. He used the word trained, which I think speaks to his dysfunctional upbringing and how he was taught to view the world as this is natural, this is normal, and this is something that everybody else endures. Mostly truthful behavior here. Scott? Yeah, I'm going to agree with you. I'm seeing all of this. We're seeing the same stuff. His illness stairs are good. He's loping along. Just telling that like he's, you know, like it could happen this morning. However, we do see an adapter when he says, when he talks about, I couldn't do it. We see him go like that. And when he says he couldn't do it, I think he's reliving that moment. Then when his dad held him underwater and he saw it coming, he's like, I can't do it. And he's going to get, I think he was worried about it all the way up to that point where he grabbed and stick him under. This is a violent thing that's going on here. This isn't just something where he would grab, he'd hold me into it. The kids flailing around, probably screaming, making noise. Apparently, nobody else is around. It's just he and his father or his brother and his mother to do that and let that happen without running over there. Are you guys going to be able to let that happen out right over there? And you know what? That's going to be tough, man. So I think he's reliving that. That's what we're seeing, that little grimace he's got, as he, again, biting down on his mouth, on his bottom lip. And then when he's illustrating those moves of his father doing it, all these things are very smooth. Everything he's going along is very smooth. Nothing is, he's not stopping and it's all jerky and short little words and separated. Everything's just flowing right along there. His cadence, in other words, as Greg always relates to it as or talks about it as. Everything's just fine. Going along there. He's telling like it's, like it was no big thing. I think this guy got so far in their heads from since they were little, he's ruined them up to this point. You know, they don't know what's normal behavior, I think. So for him, that could have been happened to everybody. You know, it wouldn't have bothered him. If you said it happens, my dad did the same thing and said, yeah, that's terrible, isn't it? He wouldn't go, what are you kidding me? Because to him, that's normal. And to us, you know, most people, that that kind of behavior isn't normal. So yeah, we're seeing the same kind of stuff there. I think my husband's been shot. My house has been burglarized. I just watched him. I don't, I've been appalled upon him. I just came in from the deer. All right. Greg, you want to go first? Yeah, I'd love to go first on this one. So I, we cover this one in the True Crime Workshop at truecrimeworkshop.com at thetruecrimeworkshop.com. This is a great example of a person trying to tell a story when they call 911. I'm not going to, I'm not going to spill my candy here and just go on and on and on. But when a person calls 911, they want help. They're trying to solve a problem. They're not starting their alibi. She's starting her alibi. She's starting to tell a story. Listen to the consistency. People are panicked. I'll say this. I once had a really bad horse accident. My wife could barely finish the call to get a helicopter here to pick me up. And in fact, she, she, her native language is Greek and she was shifting back and forth in languages. And this is not a panicked woman. It's not in her nature. When you're calling for somebody you love, you're certainly going to be even more panicked because you're more engaged. Listen to the story. She's going to tell you a story in this and it's going to sound outlandish. Then go listen to a real call where somebody's calling for help for someone they love and listen to the effect of fight or flight on their brain. As they turn into a cat, they respond. They answer questions. They ask for help. They ask for help. They ask for help. They ask for help. They don't tell you what color shoes they're wearing or what they were doing before they found them. That's storytelling. Mark, what do you get? Yeah. So this is, this is kind of like burying the lead. You know, why not just open with, look, before I ask for help, I'd just like you to know, just came in from the gym. Because, you know, that might be some vital information that you need. And the responder would go, oh, thank you for telling me that because what you want to do is get some of that gym equipment and it's like, no. Like nobody needs to know that you've just come in from the gym. Well, yeah. You might want them to know if you wanted to lay the alibi down on tape right from moment one. And again, this for me kind of signals something of the intelligence going on here. The forethought that might be going into this that somebody might go, you know what, if I make a first responder call, maybe lay down my alibi right from moment one. There is no logical reason why you need to say that you've come in from the gym. I can't think of a psychological one either where it would be resonant that you came in. And your psyche, your unconscious would bring up that you like, you've just come in from the gym. It's just plain odd and a huge red flag. I'll leave it at that. Let me add one comment. Go back to the first video and listen to what she says. There was more blood than I have ever seen. And I found my husband in a pool of blood. I've never seen so much blood in my life. Pay attention to these 911 calls. Does anybody hear her talking about blood? Wait, throughout this video, these clips were playing. Listen for her to talk about blood. The first time you see someone shot and there's a lot of blood, it's a lot of blood, especially if you've been shot five times. And it leaves an impression. For me, if that was the number one thing that she noticed, there's more blood than she's ever seen, I would expect that to come up in a frantic 911 call. Just do. And then she left Arizona on Friday and got back last night. And she had the kids with her last night? Yes. How did you have the kids? Oh, I had the kids like all weekend. Okay. They went to a birthday party yesterday. And then someone's sleeping in the basement? I did a three times the separation thing. How recently? Probably about two nights ago, three nights ago, when she was here. So by last time on Thursday night, Friday. And then your kids, do they sleep in their own beds? Or do they sleep with you? Those two adjacent rooms, they connected that bathroom. You're lucky. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah. So one of my favorites and Chase, this ties back to something you were talking about earlier about apprehension and quick movement. He does something I would call robo-copping. His head turns and then body. It's almost like a really bad science fiction thing. He goes back to that. His voice is frying, which we all know is, oh, she's got the voice fry. He starts to BS. He starts to make up something about when he slept in the basement. And this is, I got his baseline. I'm all over his eye movement because then he goes to fact and he goes up and remembers when she was last home. So now I've got an accessing cue for his visuals and what he puts facts together. When I'm talking to this guy in the interrogation room, I'm going to get him to deviate and go to the right side and go, okay, now I got something. So what we're doing is establishing a baseline. This guy's, he's a squirrel on the road. He doesn't know what to do at this point. You can hear him breathing. You hear Chase's hand slaps. His mouth actually is hanging open at this point, not just from breathing heavily, but when people are apprehensive, there's that in him. It's amazing to see. You don't see that very often. And then they give him the opportunity and there's the chaff and redirect. The birthday party down the road, Tuesday. It's just, he's all over the place. I don't know how he could think he had a chance. And guys, we're big fans of these guys. This is Weld County, Weld County, Colorado. We're big fans of you guys as police officers. You got to, you got our thumbs up from this end. I'm going to, I'm going to read you what happens in the first 10 seconds. All right. From the behavioral table of benefits. Not my discoveries, but my creation. Rocking back and forth, hands concealed, eyebrow flash, increased blink rate to 66, mouth open, and hyperventilation. He would have scored a 31. But then being deception, he would have scored a 31 in the first 10 seconds. And his head nodding lingers on after he finishes talking because the officer's not providing him any nonverbal feedback. I've seen this so rarely, but I see it mostly in children who are being questioned. And this is insane. This is the most perfect illustration of idiot body language of morons that we could get. But these guys did an excellent job of yanking that out of him and getting him to display a lot of these things. Because a lot of what he's doing is, is attributable to the behavior of the police in the room. And he's overselling, over-delivering. And it's not necessarily deceptive. This is kind of a submissive behavior. Right? Right, guys? So I'm just... You just did it, yeah. Yeah, I'm just gonna pull it. I just did it. Like, I want to pull it out of you guys. And you can see it again. His head rapidly turns to address the officer as soon as he starts speaking. More overly relaxed. And the police officer says, you're lucky, everyone. When you watch this again, listen, the officer says, you're lucky. He is so far, he's running a program right now called Protect Myself that is taking up so much of his computer's hardware in his head that the program for how to talk to humans isn't running. It's not capable of running. So what we're seeing is him just kind of staring and trying to maybe process that, but it's almost like it didn't get absorbed at all. He didn't hear it. Because that statement didn't threaten him. His brain says, okay, that's not gonna hurt me. And he didn't understand the statement. That is a remarkable thing here. Let me ask, when you were seeing John, would you... I think if you would pick you up in his car, you'd go in your car, things of that nature, when you guys would go out? Yeah, I mean... Do you remember what he drove? Well, I know at one time he drove either a 240 or a 260Z. Any other cars that stand out in your mind? I don't know how long you drove that 240 or 260Z for. And the only reason I say that is, because I think I may have a picture of it with him in it. What kind of car did you have back then? Let's see. What year? Or are you like one of those young cops that like, oh, I got a paycheck and bought a new car? Oh, no, no, no. I've only had like a few cars in my whole life. So what did you have when you came on the job? Okay, well my first car was a 68 Chevelle. Why didn't all that, though, is what I'm thinking. The only thing I think she's doing here is, they're giving her the chance to blow off a little steam, because there's nothing pertinent. She's like, why asking this? Look at her face. Why asking that? She knows where they're headed, but she can't figure out this is a transition move, I don't think. And you guys may see something else, but to me, this looks, I'll just go ahead and do my piece then. She goes to romance her. She locks eyes from the Liars Loop from the true crime workshop we did. Her blink rate goes up. And then they make a supposition, and she's kind of shocked by it. She does a goofy face. And then she starts all that lip movement stuff. And when people are thinking, we move our mouths, some of us more demonstrably than others. I think all they're doing is transitioning into, did you ever lose a car? Did you ever lose a firearm? But she can't see it. And I think she's got confusion and she's doing whatever that craziness is. That's all I see. This first time we've seen this lip thing, I think if I'm a police interrogator and I'm being interrogated, I'm trying to figure out what's coming next. I think she's starting to fry a circuit right here, figuring out what the hell are they talking about? What's next? And then she goes back to, she was going to hit that anchor. Well, I remember his car, I got a picture of him in the car. She tries the anchor again, anchor and redirect. They don't let her have it. Now she's got to answer the question. She just jumps tracks and answers whatever she wants to. That's what I see. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I mean, it's hard for me to watch anything because there's a moment in there which is one of the most bizarre facial expressions movements I've ever seen in my life on this show. Outside of Jim Carrey doing the Grinch that stole Christmas. That is Jim Carrey doing the Grinch who stole Christmas. It's the same thing. I would love to put that in the show but we get held in copyright prison for too long on that. So just go and search that out and make up a meme and stick it out there for us. It is rather like, it's like Jim Carrey doing Andy Kaufman doing Tony Clifton as well. It's the same, it's the same. She's doing, what she's doing is she's doing, she's trying to entertain, I think, at this point the interrogators by going, I know what I'll do. I'll do my impersonation of Jim Carrey doing Andy Kaufman doing Tony Clifton. That's what she does. I don't know what else is going on in this clip because I couldn't pay attention to it. I could only focus on that. Chase, is there anything else going on in this clip at all? I think that's good. So I have to come clean and tell the world the lies that went on through my mouth. I mean now prosecutors and cops and that you killed seven men. That you killed those men in cold blood. Yeah, and I got to come clean that I killed those seven men in first degree murder and robbery. As they said, they had it right. A serial killer. Not so much like a thrill kill. I was into the robin biz. I mean, you know, serial killers are in this thrill killing jazz. I was into the robbing, just to eliminate a witness. But still then again, I got a number. So it's a serial killer. But I'm coming clean before I go in that execution chamber and be executed. That I killed them. And so when you met them from the beginning, did you know that you were going to kill them when they picked you up in that cause? I pretty much, I have pretty much had them selected that they were going to die. There's this licking lips right before she pronounced serial killer was a big data point for me. And I thought that this was going to be a thing until I started watching the rest. The other videos that we're going to talk about in a minute. So I do think the dry mouth plays a part. I think I read a report by the Department of Justice recently that over the last 20 years, Trasadone is the most commonly prescribed drug in American correctional facilities. Don't quote me on that. I think that was in the last 20 years. And when she says coming clean, there's a little grief muscle. It's very, very tiny. I had to zoom. I had to put it up on the giant TV here and then zoom in on it to make sure because I don't want to say it and then look like an idiot in the YouTube comments. So when the interviewer asked, did you know that you were going to kill them? This is when we see some activity here. There's lip licking, which could be dry mouth, lip retraction. There's lip compression. Then there's chin boss movement here. For the first time, we see a little bit of what could be shame or guilt. And this is the muscle we know and that a lot of peer reviewed research by people way smarter than me have proven that this is a common muscle used in shame and guilt. I think it's very interesting towards the end here. She uses the word selected to die. She selects the people. This implies power, control, and choice, which are, like I said a few videos ago, these are all the things, our control and choice, all the things that she lacked in her childhood. And now she's been able to reestablish that by selecting who was going to die before they did. Like I said, we were looking at the case and we had read the notes as far as from Sherry's friend saying you guys had problems or words and they got heated. You know, the reason we're asking you is they had mentioned that an incident at her work had occurred and they've also told us that an incident at her house occurred. You know what? And this is at her house during the period of time that they're married. That's just not sound familiar at all. I mean, I, you know what? That's just not, again, if someone says that I was at her house and I had an incident with her, you know, I, that just doesn't sound, you know, was John there? Did John say this happened? Because, and other people were there, I just, I don't recall. I mean, it just doesn't sound, you know, familiar. Chase, what do you got? We see, we see a lot going on here that didn't happen versus that doesn't sound familiar. There's just, this is just the same exact thing she's been doing the whole time. That doesn't sound familiar, which is common in police who are also guilty suspects. Training interrogation, because that is very hard for an interrogator to do anything about. And it sounds great in the deposition after you're going through the trial process, going through the deposition. Did you say such and such on this date to the interrogator? You say, no, I said, I don't recall. Show me the transcript. It says I don't recall. And remember it doesn't sound familiar. So it's just kind of like this case body armor. It's deposition body armor is kind of what she's planning for here at this point. We see another postural retreat here. She's leaning back in her chair. So now she's getting into this more desperate information seeking behavior and dropping information with repetitive confirmation glasses to see if someone's going to nod. Someone's going to say, oh yeah, such and such said this or it's from a written statement from a neighbor. And this is where maybe a bait question could come in or we could throw in something with an incorrect detail. So like, well, is there any reason one of the neighbors would say that you were holding a baseball bat? And that's a little bit extreme. Was there any reason the neighbors would have said you punched Sherry in the face during this interaction? She's like, no, no, that didn't happen. So you want them to have, you want to trigger their need to correct the record as much as possible. And you only want to do that when they're in the extreme mindset of saving face. So you see extreme face saving behavior. You trigger the need to correct the record with one of those false information questions. Not a leading question, kind of a bait question. Yeah, same thing. Compare her. First of all, compare her posture here, that wall plate behind her. Go back and look at video one. Her head is fully below that. Now you can see the plate up above her head. She's way below it. And if you notice, she has real eye lock and no facial expression, except for that quick nod when he's talking about having words with you, Mark. That means something. And then she is just in a place. She raises forward and then she figuratively, and I think also internally, she literally, and I think also figuratively, just kind of slumps back in her chair. I think that's the beginning of the end for her. And she's drowning. And then she does chase your dead on. She does what she knows best. I don't recall. I don't recall. I don't recall. She knows that's worked a million times. If you go back and watch the entire video of this thing, you'll see this guy do an artful thing later where he starts to say, would you recall that as a police officer? Yes, I would. And he gets her into some cognitive dissonance about why she doesn't recall about something like that happened. But I think she here is at the end of her rope. And I think it's over. It's just a matter of how long it takes to close. And what was the conversation this morning you guys had? It was about selling the house in separation. And how'd she take that? We were both pretty emotional. Both crying. And then did you see her before you went to work? Did you say anything to her? She went back, like, well, she told me she was going to go to her friend's house and be with the kids. Take kids with her. Oh, she told you she was taking the kids to your friend's house. She didn't say, hey, though. Oh, no, no. No, but she was still in bed when that happened. And this was after the conversation? Yeah. It was between, like, 4 or 5 a.m. I woke up about 4 o'clock. What time did she get home? 1.48. So did you get to sleep for a little while? And then? Oh, yeah. Like, I was passed out when she got home. And then did you wake her up? Yeah, when I got up. And that's when you discussed that issue? I didn't want to do it, like, over a text or over a phone call. I wanted to be face-to-face with her. How long did that conversation last? I left 30, 45 minutes. And then you went to work? I left about 5.15, 5.30 in that time frame. And she said she was going to her friend's house with kids? But she was still here when I left. We have some chained elephant stuff going on here. But I think he stops recalling his story because it's taxing. Everything that's going on is taxing his mental resources right here. And again, watch how fast his head snaps to the other officer when the other officer starts asking him a question. That's another key factor in human trafficking victims, when they're being interviewed, is this fear submission to authority figures who could potentially hurt them or discover that they're in the country illegally, stuff like that. And for police, doing these interviews, taking the entire thing as a mosaic, and was the focus of that person on their innocence and their story, or was it on finding their family or getting help or solving the case, figuring things out and getting data to the surface? So as a mosaic, this entire thing is about his innocence. There's nothing else. And every question that he answers, the data inside of it has nothing to do with finding them, locating them, or even concern for them. He hasn't even mentioned their names throughout this entire thing, which is a distancing all on its own. And when he says she was still here when I left, I think what he should have said was they were still here when I left. And I think that's an important, let's just call it a mispronown. I don't know the word for it. Greg? Yeah, so a couple of things. I'm going to hit a few that you've already hit. That head bobble is out of character. He's swaying and then head bobbles. Something happened. I think that's the moment of the act. I agree with you. The 911 call, we typically think of 911 calls. Scott and I referenced this in the true crime workshop. There's a thing called the caller is the killer. If a person doesn't tell you they need help, if they're not about getting a solution, if they're telling you a story that later becomes an alibi, often they're the killer. I think the number was 28% of the time, that if you didn't do this, they were the killer. That's number one. Number two, I'm going to tell you something you probably can't even believe because you've never seen it. If I put enough pressure on you, your brain will eliminate your ability to listen to me. It will. Your brain, and I've seen it many times, I've talked to stress lab folks at Emory, and they said, we theorize that we've never seen it, but I have seen it. You crank up the heat so much on a person that their brain, through all the chemicals and everything it drops in starts to say, I can't take any more of this and backs out. And when it does, a person's hands draw and they ball up in the floor. It happens. I've seen it, caused it myself in real life once, and then learned to see it coming and stopped. But if that's possible, this guy is one of the people I've seen who is getting close. A little more pressure and a pointing at him and telling him would probably indicate that he would go into that next phase. And I think it's called adrenal fatigue. One of you guys who is a scientist down below, tell me what I got wrong there. But I've seen it. I know it works. This guy's trying to start, and I think you hit it dead on Chase. He's not trying. His brain is starting to say self-preservation mode, and it's starting to shut off listening and paying attention to details. He's trying to control, release whatever story he has and trying to get the information out. He does it. Now some basic body language. He does it when he says she was here when I left. So look at that. This is again where he's got all those numbers that are jumbled. Some are very distinct. This is the point I was talking about earlier if you go back and listen. 1.48, this happened. 4 or 5, 30 to 45 minutes. He's got requests for approval in there. His brain is frying circuits right now. He's trying to figure out what to do next. And we'll see him later. If you go back now, go back and watch the video that we did two weeks ago of him standing on the front porch. That's after this. Go watch. Now you'll understand all the squirming and doing this. So watch them in succession. You'll see something very different. He's in trouble. He's in real trouble right here. All right. Well, that's it. Go ahead and fellas and I'll see you next time. Subscribe. Yeah. Be sure and I forget every time. Be sure and subscribe.