 You've probably heard my story about the jack-in-the-box thing. I was only overweight for a short period of my life, like three years, two, three years, but it was like my weekly thing to go to jack-in-the-box and get those jack-in-the-box tacos, like those like translucent things. When I was overweight, I would go and get like six or seven of them or whatever. And at my heaviest, when I was just about 300 pounds, I had pulled out of the drive-thru, parked in a stall and I was eating these tacos, and this is like the important part of the story. He was just an acquaintance, it wasn't a close friend, but he drove by and he acknowledged that I was there just eating these tacos, and at that moment, I realized that I wasn't really hiding from anybody. It was like this weird epiphany that came over me where this dude that wasn't a close friend, just a random guy that I kind of knew, nonchalantly waving, like, oh, this is what I would expect this 300-pound Thomas to do. And it clicked with me all of a sudden, be like, this, I'm that guy. Like, I'm the guy that they expect me to be here. So that was my call to action. I was like, I don't wanna fucking be the jack-in-the-box guy. Like, I don't wanna be that dude. Oh boy, today's episode, I'm sure you already know who this person is. Thomas the Lauer, huge presence here on YouTube. He's a fitness influencer. One of the smarter people that's out there, this guy's got an incredible story. Initially got his exposure, because he lost 100 pounds, told people how he did it. Again, he's a very intelligent person. One of the most growth-minded people we found in the space. We really enjoyed talking to him. You probably already follow him, but we know that I think in this episode, you're gonna hear him say stuff that he's never said anywhere else. All right, today's giveaway, the RGB Bundle. Here's how you can win that bundle of programs. Leave a comment below this video in the first 24 hours that we drop it, subscribe to this channel, and turn on notifications. If you win, we'll let you know in the comment section. Also, we got a sale going on this month with some workout programs. Maps Prime, Maps Prime Pro, and the Prime Bundle. All of them, 50% off. Huge discount. If you're interested, just click on the link at the top of the description below. Again, it's a great episode. Thomas the Lauer, here you go. Was it your YouTube channel that you started first? Were you like on Facebook and things like that first? What were you on first? Facebook was kind of first, but YouTube kind of went at the same time. Yeah, I mean, it's, I just kind of got, I think I just got lucky with the timing with YouTube. I mean, it's just like sometimes a little bit, it is just luck. It was just talking about my kind of transformation. I hate that word, honestly, but it's so overused. Well, I know, but I mean, you lost 100 pounds. It's good. That's a transformation for sure. I think that just kind of happened at the right time along with like some magazine coverage at the right time where it was like a little bit of mainstream plus a little bit of what I was doing on. So it just was like a perfect recipe for that. Did you get like the like hockey stick feeling or have you been just like? It was definitely, there was definitely a hockey stick for sure. Like 2018-ish or so was like, you know, I think the channel grew like a million subs that year. Wow. Yeah, what was that like? Yeah, it was cool. I mean, it was because this is, I'll probably talk about this. I mean, this was never what I intended to do. Like I'm such an introverted person. Like it was never what I planned to do. So it was, so for me, it was like, oh crap. All right. I guess I'll take this and run with it. You know what's funny to me is we've met so many people that have like big YouTube channels. I mean, you got over 3 million subs on yours. And a lot of them are introverts, but kill it on camera, on YouTube. Was not ready for that. See, I'm the opposite. I think all of us are kind of the opposite. We do better in person. And it was a struggle to make this transition of in the camera. Totally. And some of the most successful YouTubers or people that we've met online, we meet them and they're like, yeah, no, I'm totally introverted person. And I'm like, that's so wild to me. That's easy to connect to a camera. When you're looking just at a lens, it's nice. Cause it's like a one-on-one. You know, if you can really connect that way. But I mean, which don't get me wrong. I mean, I love being in a group and discussing and talking, but it's yeah, I just never had, if you had asked me 10 years ago, if this is what I was going to be doing. Yeah. What was the intention then when you first went on YouTube? I mean, it was definitely like putting the information out there, but I came out of the private equity world. So it was like for me, it was I had like a little liquidation event and I got out and I was like, okay, I want to do something different. So it wasn't like I want to get huge and popular. It was more so I had an ebook at the time and let's just market the ebook and let's talk about it and see what happened. And then once it started to work and I started to realize that what I was good at was kind of articulating more complex subject matter. I'm like, you know, I'm good at this. Like maybe I can use this for good and that's kind of where it all started. So then once I realized that I actually, and I actually really liked production. That was the thing. So for me, like I built the studio and hired my team just out of the sake of like, I want to make a production company. I really want to do that. And I was super into the gear and super into all that. So for me, it was like, okay, where this goes, you know, nobody knows. Maybe it'll be more entertainment value. Maybe it'll be more, but I realized that I was decent at what I did. So let's just kind of roll with it. So then like the reason I think the channel took off the way it did early on is we were really pretty early when it came down to adding production value to health content. Like we were like, let's elevate this. So we were like the first ones to really be thinking about that, I don't wanna say the first ones, but it was definitely, there was nothing else on YouTube in like 2017, 2016, 2017, where they were actually focusing on production value, you know, to talk about just general health topics. You know, we've been doing this for eight years now. And I think we all said before you came today, like, man, we know we've made it once we have the V Shred guy on our show. Exactly. Yeah. How did that happen? This is huge for us. I saw you do a poster like, I'm not V Shred. What the hell is going on here? It's so ridiculous. What? It's fucking amazing. Where did that come from? I mean, it started with like, I started with like a few comments where people were like saying something like, oh, this is, I don't know, I don't understand how you can be telling us not to do cardio. And then here you're talking about all these benefits of this. And I'm just like, what the fuck is going on? I never said that. Like contradicting stuff. And then I would just see other ones be like, you're so gimmicky. I'm like, I'm actually like, maybe I am. Am I gimmicky? Am I asking my wife, like, is my stuff gimmicky? Like I really try to be like not gimmicky. I really try. And then I started like realizing and I started connecting the dots. I'm like, wait a minute. Like what the heck? I replied to one comment and was like, do you by any chance think that I'm V Shred? And the person was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. Yes, I do. And then it was like a flood of comments underneath it. They're like, I thought that too, I thought that too. So then like eight months ago, I posted a video similar to one I just did. It's talking about like, guys, I am not V Shred. Just like, and I put it out there kind of dispelling the whole cardio thing. Just cause like that was, that's a big thing for me. I'm a runner, like I love cardio. I'm not going to like tell people not to do it. And then I think it got out there and that was where like all the comments came in. Like, I'm like, holy shit, have my fucking audience thinks I'm V Shred. I'm like, no, it's all time. Yeah. And so then it got to a point where I'm like, I really thought about it and I was like, how is this actually affecting my brand? Like I'm just like thinking about it on the surface. Like I'm sure once people watch my content, they know. But the way the YouTube algorithm works, I mean, it's serving our content out to, you know, our audience, but probably a lion's share, not to our audience, just to try to test to see where it wants to serve it. And I'm like, there's probably so many people that just like look at a thumb and think that I'm V Shred and they don't click on the video because they think I'm V Shred. So it's, and then, yeah, each time I do a video about it, it's amazing the people that come out of the woodwork and that are just like, yeah, I'm embarrassed, but I did think this and- Has he contacted you? Has it become like a thing? No, but I mean, I was thinking, I was, I thought for a minute that maybe I should do some kind of like collaboration with them, but I just don't necessarily want to be associated. Yeah, I don't think so. If I did that, it would just backfire. I don't think anybody has really. Isn't he kind of like- He's an actor. I mean, he just does these commercials and then he's probably out. So I would imagine they're looking for more of his content and then they probably find that you actually have like videos and podcasts. Who was it that we met that actually told us like his kind of his story? Like he was hired like that as like, there's somebody else's behind the scenes, they're behind the business and hired him is actually just like that. Yeah, they hired him. Do you know anything about that? Do you know his story at all? I know, I mean, just about that, right? He's definitely not the brand. Like he is just the face of it. I met him once at like some event before his brand ever exploded or did anything before I shouldn't say his brand, but his, you know, the whole V shred thing. And he seemed like just like a regular dude. Like it didn't seem knowledgeable or anything like that. In fact, if anything, I don't know, off record, like I mean, he seemed pretty dumb. Well, that's what I've heard. So I mean, I definitely don't think that he had any ability to articulate anything at all. I think it was just, you know, who knows? Like I don't think he's reading off of a prompt or anything, but I think that it's straight up just. Tom, welcome to the fitness industry. Yeah, exactly. That's what we're working with. Yeah, so I mean, we, you know, getting into the space, getting popular, you came from private equity, okay? Private equity, actually we had this conversation when we first started the business. There's certain industries where the top people, they're all smart. Like you go to private equity and you're talking with a lot of influential people. They're really smart people. Tech, really smart people. Fitness, there's not a lot of really smart people. There's some, but a lot of the people you're competing with, I mean, this is just true. A lot of people you're competing with, these look good. And you hear what they say and you meet them in person and, you know, I saw it as an opportunity. Like, oh, this is not going to be too hard, but what's sad about it is the average consumer is getting information from people that they shouldn't be getting information from. When you got into the space, were you like surprised by this or were you, cause you were a consumer of fitness for a long time or were you not so surprised by this? It's a good question. I wasn't really surprised, you know, cause I also looked at it in a similar fashion and be like, oh my gosh, like, but I looked at it sort of from the aspect of like there's fitness and then there's health. And I saw this huge like divergence between the two. And I'm like, what, first of all, that was really confusing to me. As someone that came from like sort of the outside in, I'm like, wait a minute, isn't fitness healthy? Yeah. No, that's not. There's fitness and then there's health. But then kind of getting into it and realizing, well, this is like shooting fish in a barrel. Like, what the hell? This is like, these people just will say anything that they can say to get a click and get a view and there's no actual depth, but I don't think it's malicious. I mean, I think it's actually somewhat the opposite. I think it's insecure. And it's just, it's another attention grab, right? It's the same way that someone wants to have, subconsciously wants to have a six pack or look a certain way. It's some coping mechanism insecurity. And they kind of translates into how they operate their business in a very superficial way where it's just, how can I get attention, attention, attention, constantly seeking that validation? So I saw that really quick. And I'm like, shit, if I just have depth, I don't even have to be fucking smart. If I just have depth, then there's something here. Yeah, it's challenging because fitness is, well, like most things are sold visually and what tends to sell fitness to the average consumer, it's changing a little bit now, but it's still very true, is how good do you look? Oh, you're jacked. I'm gonna listen to you versus this person over here, maybe not be so jacked. And so it's hard to overcome in this, in the space because the most fit, hot-looking person, they're gonna get more attention faster. And so you have to beat their message. And how do you beat it? Well, that's the challenge. The challenge is to beat it with the right information. So that's what we've been trying to do this whole time. So. Totally mad. Tell us a little bit about your start. What got you into fitness personally? And then we could talk about it how it happened professionally. You started working out quite young, right? Yeah, yeah, I started out really young. I don't know if you've recently heard my podcast with Chris Williamson. Unfortunately, it was titled in a way that's not gonna get the attention and it probably needs, because like the first 30 minutes I went like deep, like deeper than I've ever gone where people are just like, what the hell? I had no idea like, you know, coming from like eating disorder when I was a kid and I ran my first marathon when I was 11 years old and just kind of talked all about my mommy issues, you know, really, like it talked about, so it gave a lot of context. But, you know, I found lifting when I was about 13 and it candidly saved my life. I mean, I think that I probably would have been in drugs. I probably would have been in really bad shape. Came from kind of a little bit of a broken childhood. I mean, who doesn't, but in the moment, nothing seemed, as a kid, you only know what you know, right? So it's not until you become an adult and you kind of look back and you're like realizing, wow, that was a little twisted, especially as a dad now, I'm like, wow, okay, things are a little odd. You know, so I was kind of exposed to pretty extreme things at a young age just because my mom was just kind of wired that way. So, you know, I ran my first 10K when I was, I guess five or six. I think I was, I think I might have been six. Yeah, so. Now, did your parents put you into it or were you like, I want to do this? No, my mom was just not like she forced me into it, but what I've reverse engineered out of my life now is I understand now that like the reason I run, the reason I'm so into exercises, you know, if I wanted to earn my mother's love, it was like that's what you gotta do, right? So it's like deeply rooted for me, but I loved it. It wasn't like I didn't enjoy it as a kid. It wasn't like my mom was like, hey, you need to go run this marathon. You know, I ran my first marathon when I was 11 and it was like something I enjoyed, right? We backed back to the John Muir trail when I was 12 years old, you know, from Yosemite to Mount Whitney is like 230 miles. Like people were just like, they thought my mom was insane, right? And I hated school. Like I just repeatedly would get, you know, either suspended or I got expelled from preschool. It's literally like I was, I know, I was like, literally I was eating all the Play-Doh. I just would not have it. I would not stay there. I escaped, I escaped twice and I would repeatedly try to escape because I wanted to fucking go home. I didn't as like it wasn't like, I knew from age like four that I'm just like, no, like don't lock me in a space. Like I don't want to be here. Fuck this. So anyway, I guess I give that context because it helps people understand sort of the disordered way of eating that I also developed as a kid too. So I went through when I was like 13, 14 years old, my parents went through a divorce. I had just a ton of anxiety at that point in time, like a really bad bout of anxiety to the point where I was pulling my hair out. So I had like massive bald spots and all I was made fun of at school because of that. Just a weird thing. So with that, I started developing these weird little coping mechanisms. So I used to, I was really skinny anyway, but I used to like measure my wrist with my fingers. And if I could sort of like rattle my wrist around in my fingers, then that was a win for me. It was like, these little coping mechanisms were like, oh, I can control this, right? Like little, little eating disorder behaviors. And I was pretty OCD as a kid anyway. Like I was always, talked about this on some other shows, but it was like, we had this hardwood floor in my house where it was like these, what's the name of the place where the Celtics play where they're like, they have- No, not Madison. I always get it confused. Boston Garden. Yeah, Boston Garden. Yeah, and you know how the floor there is like those squares and some grains run that way and some grains run that way. So I could only jump a step on the grains that would face forward. Otherwise, in my mind, my mom was gonna die, right? Like, so there's always, there's a deeply rooted OCD that I had. And anyway, so by the time I'm like 13, 14 years old, full-blown eating disorder and running my ass off like a maniac and my mom was going through some mental stuff after the divorce. So I ended up going through homeschool and was independent studied from pretty much all of high school and was working full-time to help support my mom. So I kind of had just like a weird teenage years. Were you working as a teenager? So I got my workers permit when I was 14 and I was doing independent study, which means that I wasn't going to normal school. I was still working through the school because independent study was a way for you to basically homeschool, but through your own school. And at the time, this just worked well for me mentally because that's how my brain worked. But then what I was really doing was, I mean, I was working close to full-time and that was some of the kids that were doing independent study were doing that. Like they were also working because we could actually get elective credits to be working. So for me, I was working between 30 and 50 hours a week when I was 14 and 15 years old and helping support my mom. And it was just, so at a young age, I kind of just developed this work ethic anyway, but it was like a totally unconventional childhood. Tom, let me pause you for a second because you said a lot and this is, there's a lot of people listening right now that might relate to some of the stuff that you're saying. And you mentioned a few things about your eating disorders as a kid where it was something you could control. Looking back, and this is common with people who have eating disorders, especially kids, it sometimes isn't related to body image issues. Sometimes it's just something I can control in an environment that seems out of control. Is that how it felt for you? Absolutely. There was no, nothing felt out of control as that kid. But now in retrospect, I'm like, wow, that was a very dysfunctional thing. And that's not throwing my mom or dad under the bus, right? Like I don't talk about that stuff publicly, like they were good parents. But the bottom line is, there were things there that were definitely messing with my head to a point where I really felt like the only thing I could control was my running was a level of fitness, but also what I put in my body. It had nothing to do with body composition. It wasn't like, I wasn't a 14 year old kid being like, I need to be super shredded. It was a 14 year old kid being like, I get satisfaction out of abstaining from this or I get satisfaction out of the control that I can have by eating only this or at this time or by running at this time. So it wasn't an actual relationship with food that was distorted. It was much more just what I was getting out of the sensation of abstaining from food. I'm so glad we're talking about this because there's a huge misconception with eating disorders to where they all come from body image issues, but that's not the case at all. Oftentimes they come from just needing to feel a sense of control. You also started working at a young age to support your mom. So you were essentially parentified at a young age, which that basically means that you now have this tremendous responsibility and sense of value for this responsibility that most kids don't have. And you probably at the time, you weren't aware of it looking back, are you like, oh yeah, that's, I was parentified. I was almost like a parent, like I had to take care of things. Yeah, no, it definitely developed that very, very quick. And it's not until I was an adult that I realized that wow, that's not very normal. And not that normal is good or not normal is bad or good, it's nothing like that. It's just that that was very unconventional. And I try to reverse engineer like why I am the way that I am today, because people think, oh, this guy's just online creates content, whatever. Oh, he's got money, he's got a beautiful wife, he's got kids, whatever. They don't realize like, no, that's the price that you kind of pay. You have these weird experiences growing up and you have these things that expose you to different things and frame who you are. There's the nature versus nurture, right? So for me in retrospect, when I look back at that, I'm like, wow, I had to grow up really damn quick. And I met my wife when I was 16 and she was 14 and we just kind of like glommed on to each other because we both came from pretty broken homes and we just found each other and like I've been with her since, right? So there was just a level of having to mature very fast. And when I was in middle school and I dropped acid when I was like in seventh or eighth grade, I was fucked up. And I'm so glad that I got through that stuff when I was in middle school because by the time that I was 13, 14, had to grow up really quick. I pretty much haven't touched alcohol since. And it's like, I got that shit all out of my system and grew up really fast. So the whole aspect of being parentified and having to look after somebody and help out mom and be able to support our house, like that was a huge piece for me just developing who I am as a person. And unfortunately, well, maybe it's fortunate, but I mean, I didn't realize it until really having my son. So I got parentified to some respect and that makes it hard for me to ask for help now. As an adult, one of the hardest things for me to do is to ask for help. I can go through all kinds of crazy challenges and people around me won't even know. Or if they do, I don't say, hey, I need help. It's very hard for me to do that. Is that similar for you? Do you do it? Totally, totally. And it reflects in my business and it even reflects at home too. Especially after having kids, you realize you kind of have to ask for help. It's like the village mentality of raising kids. And so how hard do I go? How far do I push it before I'm just running myself into the ground? And you've probably experienced this. I mean, I will just go until I die. So if it wasn't for my wife being able to step in and recognize the signs of knowing me for 18 years be like, I know you're pushing it. Like you're not sleeping. You haven't slept in four days. Like you're insomnia is bad. Because I'll just go. And there's no real... And that's not trying to toot my horn saying like, I work harder than anybody else. It's actually to my detriment. It's not something I'm proud of per se. It reflects in my fitness, sure. But how it manifests in my regular life can be a huge detriment. Like I will not put the oxygen mask on myself first, in other words. Yeah, I get that. Okay, so you got into lifting weights a little bit later. You said like 13 years old? About 13, 14, right? When my parents were going through the divorce it was kind of a thing that brought me some sanity. Okay, so what got you? Cause you were already exercising. So it wasn't like you just discovered exercise or activity. What was it about the weight training that attracted you? And then why did you end up liking it? Or, you know, like running? For example, I've thought about this a lot. So for with running, you know that you're going to encounter pain, right? Like that's the kind of... I've talked about this even with therapy before. It's like, I chose running because it was like, you can't go for a run without knowing that you're gonna encounter some level of pain. Like it's just like being able to endure. I really liked weight training because I was able to reach that point of failure and pain faster. Oh, wow. So I've likened it to like doing a drug. I was just gonna say, it's like fast acting drug versus... Yep, totally. So I'm just like, I can get myself there and get to that pain level that I need for that weird twisted masochistic mentality that I kind of had. I could get there really quick. I could get there in seconds rather than minutes. And for me, it was like, didn't think about that. But I'm like, oh, I'm reaching this point really quick and it's great. And then I can be done. Did you have any physique goals or was it just, I'm just gonna go beat myself up every day? No, I didn't really have much physique goals. I mean, I did get in really good shape when I was in high school. I mean, there's no doubt about it, but that wasn't really a goal of mine. I mean, I didn't really care. But because I was so skinny from running, like when I did put on muscle, I looked super, super ripped. I was just tiny, you know? Okay, so how do you reconcile that with your approach today with exercise? Cause you still run, you still train probably hard, obviously stay tight on your diet. Is there a point when you recognize in yourself that this is not coming from a good place and you start to tip over into old behaviors or like, how do you manage that and how often does that reoccur for you? Yeah, it occurs a lot where I recognize patterns. But I think the biggest piece with that is understanding what is a coping mechanism and understanding what is real life. And with that, I've been able to have an element of control over it that helps me just understand why I'm doing something so that that doesn't define me, so that it just becomes an action. I am still well aware to this day, if I take breaks from running, I start not feeling whole anymore, right? And that's the mommy issues coming back, right? That's the me not feeling like I'm earning love. And I've talked about this so much with my wife where it's like, okay, if I have an injury and I can't run, I start getting depressed. I start getting like, well, you could do so many other things. You can go ride your bike, you can go do this, you can do other things to cardio. Yeah, I'll do it, but it doesn't check that box the same way. So with that, I was able to really recognize, be like, okay, this is something that my brain just craves. But understanding that and being able to have sort of a high level view of it helps me maintain control over that where it's like, it's okay for me to still like running. Like it doesn't have to leave my life. But I need to also understand that I'm going for a little bit of a fix when I do that. And by leaning into that and understanding like, I'm not gonna let this control me and own me. I'm gonna own it. Has allowed me to do it with peace, right? Where if I do need to take a break from running, I can look at things in a different angle and say, okay, I'm going to work in a constructive fashion that's gonna help me maybe run better later when I can run again. Now, as far as nutrition is concerned, I find it somewhat ironic that I end up being kind of the fasting guy as the guy that was like abstaining from food, right? And people kind of pick on that a little bit. Like, don't you think that you've just kind of have this adult version of your childhood eating disorder? And in some ways I'm like, you know, I probably do, but it's also an iteration of the types of people that respond so well to fasting. Like a lot of times they are very one track minded people, people that, you know, if we look at different diet types and we look at, okay, let's say they're all the same, they all amount in the same results, they all end up at caloric restriction at the end of the day. If we just keep it very simple like that, then it's like, why does some people respond so good at fasting and some people not? Well, probably just how their brain ticks at that point. Totally, the benefits of fasting, we've said this many times on the show, which can also be the opposite for some people is the psychological aspect of it. This is why fasting is found in almost every religious practice. It has nothing to do with fat loss. Totally. It has everything to do with abstaining from an essential need, which is food. By the way, you can practice fasting with technology, sex, you know, exercise, whatever you feel attached to, you can practice fasting. I wanna ask you a question because there's a lot of, I'm connecting a lot with what you're saying. Did you find your growth or did you find a lot of growth, personal growth in relationship to nutrition and fitness through teaching others? Because for me, I didn't become as aware as I am now of my relationship with those things until I started treating other people. It was easier for me to care about other people than it was to care for myself. Did you find like some leaps in that as you started to become like, oh, I'm this fitness guy. I gotta talk about this. I'm teaching people. Oh, for sure. Yeah, no, it's the more that you explain something, there's something happening in your psyche where you're also teaching yourself. You know, and I've definitely found that as I help people, I'm helping myself. And does that sound like a self-fulfilling prophecy where am I just doing this to ultimately help myself? I mean, I'd be lying if maybe that's the case. Like maybe subconsciously that is happening. Maybe I want to help people because it also is solving some of my problems, right? But once you're stepping out of your element, it's like you're stepping out of yourself and being able to help people, you can take a look back at yourself and realize, wow, I also can't be hypocritical. I can't look at this person and instruct and delegate and explain without taking a cold, hard look at myself. And you have to do that. Otherwise you're completely inauthentic and your content wouldn't go anywhere anyway because people are gonna see that. Yeah, if you have integrity. Yeah, true. If you have integrity. Do you shred so? Do you intentionally abstain though then from some of these practices just so you can challenge yourself psychologically? For example, if you know you have this kind of relationship with running, do you ever go like, you know what, I'm not gonna run this whole month because I need to be able to not run for a month and be okay for the foreseeable future in case I do get an injury or something happens and I can't, do you practice things like that? Yep, 100%, 100%. And that has come as being a tool in my toolbox so that I know I can be comfortable with that because just like I don't wanna be dependent on a drug or I don't wanna be dependent on something, I don't wanna be dependent on running. I don't want that to own me. So I absolutely, yeah. I mean, in fact, I really just picked running back up a lot within the last maybe year and a half or so. Okay, cool. Wow, interesting. Now back to when you were a kid and a teenager, you're obviously different than most kids. You're working full-time, supporting mom, working out a lot. Most kids don't do any of that stuff. Did you have a lot of friends? Were you a loner? Did you get picked on? Were you, would you have a tough time fitting in when you were that age? I definitely had a tough time fitting in. I was the short shorts and hiking boots kid. So, I mean, yes, right? That's enough right there? Yeah, so I was that kid. Yeah, everyone knows that kid, right? I told me, did you have a mullet too? Did you have a mullet too? No, it wasn't that bad. These high-tech boots look great with these short shorts. Yeah, it's totally that. I could do karate with them. And the best thing is, is like my wife, I met my wife when I was 16, she was 14. And she's like, we both grew up with horses and she was like a rodeo girl. So she was like, you know, skirt and like cowboy boots or skirt and hiking boots. So like, we saw each other and were like, ah, we're meant for each other, you know? And it's, so I mean, with that it's kind of funny because no, I mean, I really had like the same two or three friends from kindergarten, through the rest all the way through high school, but I definitely didn't fit in in school. I was very, I wasn't picked on at the point where like I was bullied, but I always felt like I just didn't fit in. There was just an element where I felt uncomfortable. I didn't really like being in school. I remember just like when I would have to go to high school because I would have elective classes on campus occasionally. So like, you know, maybe one elective. So I'd have to go like two days a week to school or something. I'd still have to go and report to my independent study teacher. And I just remember like walking up and down the aisles like during break and just literally just like doing 180s, like walking all the way in, walking back. And it wasn't like I was a total, total weirdo. I could have had friends, but I just didn't. I just like kind of, so I don't understand why I was that way, except for the fact that I felt I just had bigger fish to fry and like social relationships at that point in time just seemed like a waste of time. So maybe it was just an act of maturing super fast because when I was younger, before I had to take on responsibility, I had no problem just mingling and hanging out with friends. But by the time I was like 14, it just, it literally felt like a waste of time, which it's not, obviously I know as an adult now that relationships are probably the most important thing, but it's just a weird experience. Yeah, it wasn't in your world. In your world it was, you know, helping provide food on the table and worry about your home life. Totally. Hanging out with your buddies, making spit wads or whatever it is. Fair point. So how does someone like you then, what was the transition then like for you to have grown up like that and be kind of this loner personality to the fame and attention that you get now? Like, was there this weird kind of awkward transition of like this is really weird from, I went from the kind of loner kid to now I'm like millions of people paying attention to me. Yeah, I mean, it's still weird. Because it's not necessarily what I ever would have thought I'd be. And I never would have thought that people would not give two craps about what I have to say, right? So, but I also make sure that I don't abuse that because I could see how that could turn into something where it's like, you never listened to me and now you're gonna listen to me. But now it's something more like, this is cool. Like, maybe I am being rewarded for my hard work. I'm being rewarded. So I try to view it like that. And it's definitely odd. Like it still feels weird. I still, what's the term, like imposter syndrome, right? Where you just kind of feel like this isn't really real. Like people don't actually give a crap, but they do. And it's really cool. And it's a really fulfilling feeling. Yeah. As a kid, I read that you studied art history in Italy. Yeah. So that was another crazy thing that my mom did, right? It was like- So she just flew you over there together? We just, my mom, my sister and I, when I was 13, we, yeah, we went over, we studied and we lived there for like six months. And she was like, you guys are gonna homeschool? I was in eighth grade. And we went over to Italy and like just studied abroad. And it was just a cool experience. And a part of it, I talked about this on Chris Williams' podcast too, part of the issue there was, I was a 13 year old boy with a bunch of like 19 year old college kids. And they thought that it would just be so fun to like give me drugs and like alcohol. And like- This is where like, I got a lot of that shit out of my system fast. And it was so, that's kind of a comical side of it. But yeah, I mean, there was just an example. And I come, I think about it later on. And that's right when things with my mom and dad were getting rocky. And I think my mom was just like, let's just remove ourselves from this situation. And, you know, cause on the outside looking in, people were like, what about dad? Like, how come you and your mom and sister are going to Italy, like your dad's staying back? And I didn't really think anything of it at that time. I'm just kind of like, no, this is cool. It's a cool experience. I was taking us to Italy and we're doing this. And now I look back and I'm like, oh shit, you know what? That was like right in line. That's right when the divorce was starting. So there's a lot of other pieces to unpack there, but it was a crazy cool experience. Now does your sister have similar experience in terms of like, do you guys, do you have a good relationship where you guys have talked about, you know, how this has affected you in terms of like, now as an adult and is she a parent as well or? Yeah, my sister is a classic overachiever as well. She was, you know, went to the Air Force Academy as the Air Force captain, got out. She's, she works for, you know, Team Rubicon now. So she's, yeah, she's definitely an overachiever. And she and I have talked about this like, anosium. Like definitely we have really tried to analyze why we are the way that we are. My sister is a, you know, professional Ironman triathlete for a number of years. Now she's an insane mountaineer. Like she just climbs the most insane crap. Like she just did the Matterhorn. She's like just always, she's just extreme in a completely different way. Whereas I went extreme in this route, she just went extreme in a way that's just totally different. And it's both, in both of our case, it's our significant others that kind of are the guardrails for us a little bit because I think without them, we might be a little too extreme. And my sister, she and I have kind of, you know, she's four years older. So she went to the Air Force Academy right when I was just kind of getting into this point where I was working and I was helping my mom. And I could never figure out for the life of me why she was always super worried about me. So like when she first went off to school, she was like freaking out all the time, like, what's Thomas gonna do? What about Thomas? And I'm just like, I'm totally fine. Like, what are you thinking? Like, and now I look back and I'm like, ah, okay, I get it. Like she was four years older, you know, from the peanut gallery looking at this stuff, like my poor little brother, like is he gonna be okay? Like through the divorce and through all this weird stuff that's going on. And so we've unpacked that a lot because there was a lot of weird animosity between my sister and I for a long time because I had a lot of resentment because of how she kind of helicoptered over me and like, let me live my life. Let me live my life. And now I understand, you know, she just, and she, I became a security blanket for her. So through all these coping mechanisms that I developed, she developed somewhat of a codependency on taking care of me because it made her feel this level of parental control that she didn't really have otherwise. At least that's how I unpack it. Well, that's well. So I wanna hear a either 13, 14 or 15 year old story of your experiences with Drose because I imagine if you can recall something back then, it was probably either really funny, really crazy, really scary. Totally. Yeah. Well, I mean, when I was like 13, I was stoned all the time. I mean, I was just like that. So that's like, that just became normal. I was just, I mean, I grew up in Sonoma. And if anyone's familiar with like Sonoma County, it's just like what you do for sport. Like it's just like, I mean, there's like, if you've ever been through that County, I mean, there's fucking weed trucks driving by with like shit flying out of them, you know, like full on rain cloud, grams of butts just like fucking flying out. It's nuts. Like it's just normal life, you know, go up and then like, you know, all the way up to Humboldt County, the whole one-to-one corridors. Just like, so I mean, as a kid, like, and in Sonoma, it's like, you've got winery. So you've got that culture. It's like all there is for kids to do. And I'm fortunate that I did it when I was really young. So that was just a functioning part of my like 13 year old life. And then, you know, yeah, did acid a couple of times when I was like 13 years old. And I remember it was always with like the same close couple of friends. So I was never like by myself doing it in a creepy room or anything like that. But I just remember, I remember vividly, like being under this, going under this bridge afterwards, that was like down the street from my house. And it was where we had built a tree fort when we were kids. So there was like a tree fort. That was maybe like a hundred yards up. And I just remember this tree fort always being like symbolic in my life. Because as we built it when I was like seven and it was there through high school and stuff like that. And I just remember being there and just seeing like crazy amounts of like bushes and stuff enveloping this thing like in real time. It's like probably my most vivid memories as I got 13 year old was basically taking acid and seeing my tree fort enveloped by like vines and bushes and not really understanding. You know, and now as an adult, like who knows what else I was really experiencing. All I was, you know, out of control kid trying to experience something. Yeah. Felt like you were being enveloped by the world. Probably. Yeah, something like that. Wow, so okay, so what got you into, I mean, private equity, I couldn't think of a more different space than the fitness space. Why'd you go there? Yeah, so I mean, if we take a look at, basically I went through a period where obviously I gained a lot of weight, right? So I think to end up how I, or talk about how I ended up there, we have to kind of look at that. So when I was like 17, 18 years old is when I decided I wanna start putting on some muscle. I wanna actually do this seriously. And it became a little bit of a body dysmorphic thing where it was like, okay, now I got the bug and like this was cool and I wanted to get big. So I tried to put on as much weight as I possibly could, right? So I did, I did pretty good like my, when I was like 18, 19 years old, I put on like probably 40 or 50 pounds. Just like eating like a madman and lifting and really trying and really working hard. And then essentially what happened is like how I ended up overweight over the next couple of years is I went from taking this bulk and then not really lifting anymore as I got into my work life. And I was kind of lifting like one day a week but still eating probably if I had to guess like 5,000 calories a day trying to gain weight. So it was legitimately like a bulk gone wrong and I've likened it to, it's like Eric Cartman in the beefcake episode. I'm really starting to feel out nicely. You're not spilling out nicely, you're better than ever. I'm not, right? I'm getting insane. I just totally that, it was legitimately. So it wasn't like, and I always am making sure that people know that I wasn't like this obese kid or obese guy that was just a total slob, right? I came rooted in fitness and my one track mind kind of took me another direction. And again, as I've talked through this, I've realized that it was probably like an element of weird self sabotage in my life because I went where I wanted to gain a bunch of weight. I wanted to kind of revolt against my previous self. But then it's almost like I wanted to become overweight. It was like a weird, it felt good to just binge and it felt good to just overeat and it felt good to do that because I felt like I was almost revolting against mom in a way. It was really bizarre. Cause I look back at it and I'm like, why, why did I do that? I wasn't a stupid kid. I knew that like, if I ate that much food and wasn't working out, it would all turn to crap. So I ended up like convincing myself that I was like a power lifter cause I would go to the gym like once every week or once every two weeks, lift some heavy stuff and then just eat like a maniac. So I ended up crazy overweight. I ended up close to 300 pounds by the time I was like, you know, 20, 21 and realize, you know at that, so I got into the private equity world because I was in the healthcare recruiting space first. So I got into like a healthcare recruiting space where I was recruiting physicians, recruiting healthcare executives. So I developed an understanding for how the healthcare system worked and how that whole process worked. After that, I got into what is called an ancillary lab services company where we were basically providing like salivary cortisol testing and stuff to fee for service physicians. So basically I was ultimately in medical sales, right? That company got acquired by a private equity firm and that's how I ended up in that world. But with that, it was very interesting because that's how I learned to essentially sell to physicians and sell to these healthcare administrative systems basically understood how to sell biochemistry because that's what we were talking about all the time. It was like, we were some of the early ones implementing what are called MDDC campaigns where it was like taking physicians and putting them in practice with like chiropractors so that chiropractors could also prescribe or not legally prescribe but have a doctor in their office that they could prescribe. And it was a really interesting business and that's how I learned how to like articulate this biochemistry. I'm like, I'm really good at this. So long story long, that's at a point where I'm realizing, okay, like you've probably heard my story about the Jack in the Box thing that was floating around. Okay, so that's how I ultimately decided I needed to lose weight. It's really kind of a funny story. So I was only overweight for a short period of my life, like three years, two, three years. But it was like my weekly thing to go to Jack in the Box and get those Jack in the Box tacos, like those like translucent things that I still crave to this day. 20 of those for 10 bucks. What is it about those things? They put drugs in those things. Dude, they're insanely good. And it's not like that was just a thing I did when I was overweight. Like when I was running cross country in high school, I would go eat those after running. So it was like a childhood thing that I always loved those. But anyway, when I was overweight, I would go and get like six or seven of them or whatever. And I'd eat them usually in the parking lot and I'd go through the drive-thru and then I'd sit in the parking lot and eat. And at my heaviest, when I was just about 300 pounds, I had pulled out of the drive-thru, parked in a stall and I was eating these tacos and a friend of mine that's kind of more of a quaintance drove by. And this is like the important part of the story, how much I've like analyzed it. He was just in a quaintance. It wasn't a close friend, but he drove by and he acknowledged that I was there just eating these tacos. And at that moment, I realized that I wasn't really hiding from anybody. It was like this weird epiphany that came over me where this dude that wasn't a close friend, just a random guy that I kind of knew, nonchalantly waving like, oh, this is what I would expect this 300 pound Thomas to do. Like this is life. And it clicked with me all of a sudden to be like, this, I'm that guy. Like I'm the guy that they expect me to be here. So that was my call to action. I was like, I don't want to fucking be the Jack in the Box guy. Like I don't want to be that dude. Hot sauce just drippin' down. Yeah. And I mean, I have had Jack in the Box tacos since like, and I haven't relapsed as a result, but I guess the point is is that it was that, it wasn't someone coming to me and saying, you're going to die if you don't lose weight. And I've talked about this before too, but I made myself type 2 diabetic in that period of time, by as far as fast blood sugar is. So I mean, I remember being at like a 144 in my fasting glucose. So it just goes to show from like a biochemical side of things. We have that discussion for a second, how quickly you can fuck your metabolism. Totally. Like massive over-overfeeding for a short period of time and inactivity, you absolutely can make yourself insulin resistant. So it took me like five or six years to really get rid of that even after losing weight. Like the damage that was done there took a long time to unravel. Anyhow, that's how the weight loss cascade started. And because of the industry that I was in, I really was privy to some pretty cool stuff. Like in the world of healthcare, what's called FIFA service is it's much more of what is commonly known today as concierge medicine. You have doctors that for lack of a better term are kind of performance based. Okay, like if you look at the traditional healthcare continuum. Because they get paid privately, right? Yep, doctors aren't really incentivized for outcome. And it's a broken system in that way, right? They get patients no matter what. They get patients totally, man. And it doesn't matter because they're getting reimbursed no matter what. But with concierge medicine, I think it's a great thing because these doctors are actually like, no, we need to get a result. I mean, there's still insurance involved on part of the side. But as far as them actually wanting to keep you on, or you have them on retainer, you wanna have a result. So interestingly enough, this was 12 years ago or so where physicians were like, hey, actually fasting might be something you wanna try. And it was just me being like, hey, I'm gonna lose some weight. Like, do you recommend anything? Like, yeah, you might wanna try fasting. I did it and do the weight really did just fall off of me. Like it wasn't hard for me to lose weight with fasting because that's how my brain was. And this is- It was very black and white. Like you, it's easy. Like, oh cool, just do this and then done. Yeah, especially with how I was wired. Like I was such like a just laser focused person. So I mean, I lost like 50 pounds in like the first three or four months. I mean, it was really impressive how fast the weight came off. Granted, I wasn't super overweight for very long. So it probably was easier to come off. And I'm very honest about that. But this was all happening as there was like a liquidation event going off the company that I was in. And that's what kind of slingshoted me into what I do now. You know, I had some interstitial stuff there that I did for work in between after that liquidation event. How did you get shares in the company? Did they just give them to you by working for them or did you buy a share? Yeah, so basically just the sales position that I was in, I earned some shares. So I basically took options and basically was able to exercise those options. Wow, very cool. Now here's a, this is, I always find this challenging but you don't seem to be in this category. I always find it challenging when I talk to high performers like you who have that laser focused mind where you could just turn on a light switch. Like this is what I'm gonna do and I'm gonna do it. And oftentimes I get challenged because they communicate health and fitness as if they're talking to a bunch of them. Like, oh, this is what you do. Oh, why can't you do it? You just do it. Just turn it on, turn it off and that's what you gotta do. You don't necessarily do that. You don't talk about it that way. Was it, did you identify like, oh, wait a minute, average person doesn't respond? Or did you start off? Or did you start off that way and have to figure it out? Yeah, I did start off that way. So if you look back and I think I, I'm having to undo a lot of the damage that I did even like seven, eight years ago with my brand. And I say damage and like, I think I helped a ton of people but man, did I live in an echo chamber for what worked for me? And I think I messed a lot of stuff up, right? Like I think, I wouldn't undo anything. Like I think I'm becoming known as the guy that was like, hey, I like Thomas because he's willing to change his mind and willing to change his views on things for things that, you know, make more sense or at least are legitimately backed up. So yes, I absolutely lived in that echo chamber but that's sort of a discussion about my way of thinking and my nutritional views, perhaps being more dogmatic. That's somewhat of a different discussion than what you're articulating here. For me, yeah, we call those the optimized bros, right? The people that are just like, you're talking such fine-tuned stuff. You're like, no, just flip the switch and just do this. Like what, well, not everyone is wired like that but I think having that period of time when I was overweight and also having somewhat of a sales background, like you have to be able to mirror, you have to be able to have that, you know, as Chris Voss would put it, that tactical empathy that happens just as being in a sales position. And I don't wanna say that my content was created because of that, but I think my skill set with that allowed me to take a look and be like, well, who's viewing my content? Like people were viewing my content because I was talking about intermittent fasting and stuff early on, because that's what worked for me. And especially at that time, intermittent fasting really was used more so for people wanting to lose weight. Now it's more of a hack and a tool for people and you see a lot of the fitness community kind of adopting it, but really I'm like, well, who's watching my content? You just gotta know your avatar. So I think for me, it was being able to know, okay, well, it works for me because I'm a freak and understanding that I might be a little bit of a freak and a little bit obsessive but I am an anomaly and most of the people here just they need to understand why this works, how this works and you need to bring it down to a basic level. They're not experienced, they're not living in this world. Yeah, I mean, look. It's our path, same thing. It's all that we were training people in gyms. I think that's your integrity speaking because we all started the same way. Most people who get into fitness have a different relationship with fitness than the average person. I mean, it took me five years to figure that out. At least five years where I wasn't talking to me, where I would think, why don't you just do it? Just follow this, just do that. That's what I do. But eventually I had to be like, okay, why is this not working for most people? And it's because most people don't view fitness and diet the same way. For them, it's just the way to enjoy their lives and improve their lives. For me, it was life. So it was very different. And so you saying you can go back and say I was wrong and here's how I view things now, that's your integrity speaking, I think. It sounds like you really care about helping people. Is that, would you say that's true? Yeah, I mean, I get off on it, man. I mean, that's what drives me. It's being able to, and really since having my son, like I have a son and a daughter, but my son, it's five and a half. After having him, it changed everything with how I looked at how I created content. Because now I look at my son as a five-year-old boy and I look at an adult that's struggling with something and I can't help but look at that, even angry, frustrated, 40-year-old man and look at him as a five-year-old boy. That's someone's son. That person has a mom, a person has a dad. And even though their shell might be this angry, frustrated person, I can't help but be like, I'm looking at my son and he's gonna be a grown-up one day and it just changed everything. So now, I don't wanna say I talk to everyone like a five-year-old, but I understand that when I'm talking to someone and I'm talking to them about health and fitness, that is a place where they have massive insecurities more than likely. So their shell's gonna go up, their guard is gonna go up, they're gonna be defensive, whether they want to be or not, because subconsciously, they're hurting. I'm like, I gotta break through that and talk to the five-year-old in there and help them understand that like, dude, I get why this is going on, but let me explain what's happening in your body so that you can actually get excited about this. And that's just, it changed everything, man. I do think that the content prior to me having my son was good, but it was just so dense. And I think, I look back at that content and it's crazy, there was nothing malicious about it obviously, but there was something missing in even how I connection. And I'm like, man, like, it's so different now. Now was this, would you say like, as you were creating and developing content initially, were you more conscious that other coaches would be looking on and sort of that imposter kind of thing where you're trying to over-educate on some level like your audience? Or were you just more focused on the audience and then had interactions with the coaches later? Yeah, that's a really good question. I haven't thought so much about that, but I realized a few years into it that, wow, my content is actually just helping other people create content from my content. And in a weird defensive way, it actually kind of made me change my content. I'm like, all people are doing is they're just ripping off my stuff. And that's kind of like, I was looking at it in like a mouse protecting my cheese sort of thing. So in a lot of ways it changed my content as a defensive strategy, but it ended up changing it for the better. Because I was like, I don't wanna necessarily just be out here helping, I mean, this is gonna sound bad, but I've always had like a distrust and a disgust towards the fitness industry where I'm just like, guys are just like, gonna just rip off my shit and pawn it off as your own. So let me go direct. So I started realizing I need to talk to the audience directly. And where I was really good was sort of getting that passion across and being able to explain things in a way that were so passionate that the viewer would get excited about it. And other coaches would be like, okay, well, I'm not like getting as much out of this. And then now, I mean, now it's at a point where I can do a little bit of both, where I even try to have like a thumbnail strategy where it's like people understand like, this is gonna be more optimized like high level content and this is gonna be more basic content. So now I can have like a little segments and how it's broken up. But that's a really good question. Cause I mean, other than like the superficial level that I've looked at it, it was almost a frustration. Like I still am frustrated with the fitness industry. Oh, it's the most frustrating industry in the world. You tell us what we're talking about. They're 99% of the shit troll comments. You realize that? Yeah, I know. Of course. You've had to have had interactions with other coaches. Dude, they're fucking horrible. Yeah. And it's like, it's the people that like, and obviously there's good ones. There's tons of good ones. And the good ones are, we're starting to get to a point now in the industry where the good ones are actually floating to the top. Finally. It's awesome because it's, yeah, like you look at the comments, you look at like who's actually talking smack. And if you go and you click on them, you're like, oh, of course you're, you know, 6% body fat Bob, let's, you know, or you're Jared or Chad, you know, that you're here. And yeah, you're, of course you're gonna talk shit because, oh yeah, look at your profile. Yep. Oh, you're, you know, nutrition coach. You know, it's always that guy, right? It's frustrating because you never get shit comments from people that you're actually helping. You know, the irony in that is, I try and help other fitness content creators when they're putting their stuff together is to learn how to ignore that because the irony is that person or those people represent such a small percentage of the client. Like we, and this was easy for us because we came from the gym culture first. We actually were training people in person. And when I, when we got introduced to the social media space and now we're on YouTube and all this shit and we're reading and seeing these comments and I'm seeing who's responding. I'm like, that guy never bought training from me. That girl would never buy, like, I don't even care about them. They're not even my customer. So why am I giving that, giving that any sort of energy? I'm not gonna focus on that. I'm gonna continue to ignore my peers that are criticizing the way we communicate or we say something. Cause I'm focused on helping the other 85% that all these people in the fitness space are missing because they're all trying to impress each other and get into a pissing contest of who's more right about this nuance thing. Meanwhile, missing the majority of people that really, truly need your help. I wanna talk a little bit about, we're all dads, we're all fathers here and you said some stuff that I think we can all relate to. When you had, so your son's your oldest and then you have a three year old daughter. At what point did you realize, cause I can't, it's hard. I think it's almost impossible to explain to somebody who doesn't have kids because it's such a profound, unexplainable, I think, experience. If you care, right? I guess there's people who have kids that don't give a shit, but if you really care to be a good parent, you can't help but have this like crazy, like when did it hit you when you had your kid where you were like, oh, this is way, this is crazy, this is different than more different than anything I ever thought and nothing's ever gonna be the same. When did that hit you? Yeah, there's, okay, there's the obvious one is like right when he was born. That's not the big, the big hit. The big hit kinda comes later. That's a big hit. Your son's born, you're holding him, you're like, holy shit, I remember vividly leaving the hospital with my wife and my wife and I being like, they're sending us home with this thing. It's harder to adopt the fucking dog. Isn't that weird? I have to say thought. Like I have to go, they have to come do a home check if I adopt the dog, they have to like make sure my backyard doesn't have like holes in the fence and like they're letting me leave with this damn thing. And so we're just like, holy crap. So I mean that was a, I think when we actually brought him home versus when he was just born and popped out, like that was when it really hit but it was when my son was able to start communicating with me. And there's all these different moments. There's all these different moments. And I'm gonna, this is fresh in my mind. So I'm gonna say that something hit me so hard literally last night. My son was having a bit of a meltdown. He hit his sister, did something, but he really wanted me to come outside and play a specific game with him that he was playing. Okay. And we said, okay, no, I can't go out and play with you. Nick, you just hit your sister. We need to deal with this issue and whatever kind of a, you know, reprimand him, however you need to be reprimanded and discipline him, however that situation looked. And he starts breaking down and he cries and he looks at me and he's like, I just want you to come play. I just want you to come play. And then he looked at me dead in the face. He says, you can come play with me and then you don't have to play with me anymore. And it was like, like he was saying it like, and I'm like, it's like how he's interpreting things. He's internalizing this as you don't wanna play with me. And don't worry, dad, like I'm just asking you to come play with me. Then you don't have to play with me anymore. I was, my wife and I look, we like teared up. We're like gutted. It just hit us like it makes you really realize how like you think someone is thinking a certain thing and just what their actual operating system is teaching them. Totally. And like this whole situation on the surface, my wife and I are like, we're just dealing with the fact that you hit your sister. Right, right. Like we, we're not. But he may interpret it totally different. And he interpreted it as dad really doesn't wanna play with me. I'm bad or something like that. Yeah, don't worry, dad. I just want you to play with me for a minute and then you don't have to play with me anymore. And I just like hugged him and I was just like, dude, I love you so much. I want nothing more than to play with you. I would like to spend my entire day playing with you. And it's like, you know, and being, when you try to explain things to a five-year-old, it just, so I mean, that's just an example, right? It's life is full of these moments like that where they're teaching moments for us, but the teaching moments for our kids and how we internalize that. And we have a choice to grow from that and be a better human from that or we can completely discard it. And unfortunately, a lot of people would probably just discard that even said that, but I internalized that. And I'm like, wow, how do I become a better human out of this? Not just for my kid, but also in how I create content. And, you know, like people's different states of mind that they're in at a certain point in time might be that of a five-year-old just because they're emotionally broken or whatever. And you got to be able to do that. But I would say back to your original question. Okay, there's all these little moments, but when he could finally communicate with me and when he could finally articulate his emotions better, that was a huge thing. I'm like, this is actually a real human being that isn't just whining and screaming and crying when he's upset. He can explain that something's wrong. I'm like, I am actually driving this human to help him become what he's gonna be. With my daughter, it was a little bit different though. It's just kind of different with boys and girls. Like with my daughter, there was like this very pivotal moment because she was all about mom for like the first two years of her life. All mom wanted like a stiff arm to dad and kind of hurt me as dad. I'm like, I just want this bond with my daughter. And you know, it was just very simple where one day my wife was holding her kind of on her hip and my daughter reaches for me. And she's like, I want dad to hold me. She's like, reaches for me. And it was like amazing, just the difference like holding my daughter and just feeling that embrace. It was that moment where everything kind of changed for me and just the relationship with a girl versus a boy. I know this is long-winded, but you've probably noticed this too. You have boys and girls. I got two and two. He's the only one with both. Two boys, two girls. He's got two. I've got one. He's got both boys and girls. With girls, I notice I understand what makes my wife tick now. Because you see it broken down at such a core level. And I'm like, all these things that are masqueraded by various defense mechanisms that we put on as adults. And like, I understand like my daughter would just have these like outbursts and want to go beat by herself. And I'm like, wow, when I have conflict with my wife, that's how she is as an adult. Like she might have an outburst and then she just wants privacy. She just wants to be alone. And like I'm the, I'm the fix it, fix it. So like all of a sudden. Chaser. Chaser. No, no, let's fix this. And she's just like, no, fucking leave me alone. Like, and like never could really understand that. And then with my daughter, it's like, I see this at a such a simple core level. And then my wife has said in separate occasions when looking at my son, she understands how I tick now. So I don't know, man. There's so many pieces. I could talk about this stuff forever. Oh, it's a hundred percent. So I, so I've been telling these guys, you know, I'm really deep into learning about young. So I have two, I have four kids, two are older and two are younger, it's a big age gap in between them. And I look at my, you know, I'm learning a lot about raising little ones, a toddler and infant. And through the process, I'm learning a lot about like adults. And I think it's because with kids, with kids, you, especially your own kids, when your daughter's young and she's acting a particular way, you're more likely to be like, well, okay, honey, I understand, but you know, what your wife does, you're like, you're an adult, you should be acting this way or whatever. So with your kid, it's more pure. I guess the emotions come out more pure. And so it helps you understand, I think adult emotions in your own. I don't think you could become a better dad without becoming a better person. I think it's impossible. You have to become a better person. They go hand in hand for sure. Now you guys have been together since you're 16. Did you at one point go through a phase where maybe you weren't gonna have kids? And what made you wait this long? Yeah, we weren't even gonna have, like we went a lot of our relationship and like we're never gonna have kids. You're never gonna have kids. Wow. And then... Some more story. Yeah, we just like where, as a matter of fact, you know, we, this is crazy, like the amount of like density that happened with this. But we found out we were pregnant on, I guess it was Valentine's Day 2017. And my wife presented me with a Valentine's Day card with the pregnancy test in it. She had just found out that morning too. And the sneaky bastard videoed my reaction. You know, we weren't planning, right? So she gives me this Valentine's Day card. I'm like getting ready to go to the gym and like I've got my gym bag and like I opened this. I'm like, oh, sweet Valentine's Day card and like it turned white as a ghost. And this video is just hilarious. Like I think like my eyes kind of rolled back into my head for a minute, like total shock. And I'm just like, I don't know, like 15 seconds of just being frozen. And then I remember thinking like, well, shit, like, okay, this is happening. So like force a smile for a minute, because otherwise she's going to get really mad and just compartmentalize and think about it later. And yeah, I mean, it took me a few minutes before. I was like, you know what, I'm excited about this. I'm excited about this. But we had never, I wouldn't say at that point we were opposed to having kids. We were just going throughout our lives. But we had a lot of stuff going on. Like our dog had just died four days or three or four days earlier. My dad was on his deathbed and ended up dying two weeks later. So it was like so much stuff happening all at once. Or it's like dog dies, find out we're pregnant and then dad dies. That was that whole thing was just a life changing experience right then and there. But yeah, a lot of our life we're just like, we're good, we don't need to have this. So I have a similar story too, right? So it ended up having my son so much later in life, almost 40 years old when I finally did. Now I have my own reasons why we used to talk why, oh, maybe we won't have kids. And that was a common conversation in our house. So leading up before that even, right? Before that situation happened, was there a reason that you both were like, hey, we could have no kids and I'm fine with that? Was there anything in particular like how you each were raised or your thoughts on where you are currently at in your life? Like what made you potentially not want to have kids back then? I think at that point my wife and I had realized how disturbed our childhoods were and we're like, we don't necessarily want to do that again. We don't want to bring kids into that. And then something changed after she got pregnant where we're like, this is an opportunity to not do that. Totally. So once you're presented with the opportunity or presented with the reality of it, you're like, well, we ain't going back. So let's just not do that. Cause we, and also, I think there's a lot of selfish reasons, right? Like, oh, we just want to be able to, we've got four dogs, we've got horses, like let's just enjoy our life with our animals. And it's just crazy how the vantage point that it gives you on life once you do have kids. Oh yeah, especially late. So my wife and I, we play this game where that's, and you can do this too, because you've been together for a long time. We were too. What would 25 year old you be as a dad? What are the things, when you know your 25 year old self pretend you had the five year old and the three year old, what mistakes would you see yourself making as a father? I mean, it's easy to say there wouldn't be the concessions of the sacrifices. Like it would be, I would even go so far as saying my wife and I would probably have split up. We'd probably, you know what I mean? It's like, probably like, it just, things get hard now and like have the maturity to understand like, we are, no, we're a unit. Like we don't, now when we have conflict, it's constructive conflict to drive the family forward as a team. If I disagree with her, she disagrees with me, it's not an attack on our identity. It's, no, how do we apply these two things together? Where can there be concessions to ultimately make this family move forward? Because we are a team, we are a unit. I think when you're 25, you don't have that mentality yet. You're still thinking about yourself. So anything that threatened me as an identity as a 25 year old was already a struggle. And it kind of, I kind of felt like my wife and I, there were periods, you know, when we were in our twenties where we maybe had one foot out the door all the time where we're just like protecting ourselves, you know, protecting like, how do we, how do we make sure if like you do something wrong, like I'm still protected and I'm still okay on my own. Where now it's like both feet in, like, and if shit got really, really bad, I'll deal with it when I deal with it then because right now, like it's all about being all in. It's not, it's not having one foot partially out. Whereas not to say at 25, we were a weak relationship at all. We were really strong, but having kids really puts pressure on wherever there are those little fragmented joints, you know? On your profile, you have like father on there. So this is obviously something, I mean, you think what does it have to do with fitness, but I think it has a lot to do with just, I guess, growth and being a better person, which is kind of part of your brand. Do you ever communicate to young men about this? Cause I feel like media makes fatherhood look like it sucks or like it's terrible or you lose a lot, you lose your freedom, you can't do this, you can't do that. Dads look like idiots on TV. Do you ever talk to that at all or? To a certain degree, I do. Sometimes I get algorithmically pigeonholed and I think to my, I need to probably be stronger about just speaking about those kinds of things, even if they don't get the viewership because eventually they will, right? That's just an algorithmic thing. But sometimes that's something that I have pledged to myself to do. Like even if the content doesn't perform, if it feels good and it feels like it's helping even a few people, I'm gonna put it out there. I don't care. Because yes, you are absolutely right. Like fatherhood is put in a really weird light. You're either like the cheesy father that is super dopey and super, you know, like, what's his name? Family guy. Flanders from... Yeah, I was gonna say Flanders, I was gonna say even, forgot his name, just died recently, Full House. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The Full House version, not the stand-up. Not the actual stand-up. Danny Tanner. Yeah, Danny Tanner, yeah, exactly. So, you know, where it's just like, oh my gosh, that was such a, like a stick in the mud, you know, like just. So you see that and like, I don't really wanna be that, but that's not what fatherhood is at all. It's the most eye-opening experience. And it's so interesting. And you guys, I'm sure you see this, you can just tell someone that doesn't have kids versus someone that does, like as a man. And we also, like now I just wanna shout it from the rooftops even more because I feel like families are threatened. Like this entire societal movement right now is like, don't have kids, don't have families. Like population collapse is a very real thing. And it's like, it is our biological inherent need to like grow and, you know, procreate and have this. And I don't wanna sound like a cheesy person saying that, but it's like family values are threatened. And it's like not cool to have family values in some people, younger people's eyes now. But that means that our generation is left in this weird gray area where we have half the world viewing us as you guys are awesome fathers and half the world viewing you as like, why would you guys ever have kids? And being able to explain and teach people that this is something that not only is good for the world and good for your family, but it really is good for you. It's not just sacrifice. Like I've grown, yes, there are sacrifices, but I've grown exponentially in the last five years of having my son much more than I did in the previous 30 years being alive. Nothing meaningful is easy. It's just bottom line. Everything meaningful is hard. And I think when you choose to not raise a child, you lose the opportunity to develop quite possibly the deepest relationship you could ever develop because where else can you raise someone from birth to adulthood and that depth, like that connection, you really can't, I mean, I don't know how you could find it anywhere else. And why would you wanna give that up? It's great, but I mean, it makes sense from a consumer standpoint to tell people not to have kids and to tell people to stay single or just be Peter Pan because you buy more shit and you're easier to manipulate and you always want the shiny new thing. Cause I don't know about you, but when I became a dad, like all that stuff became way less important. Like I do not care nearly as much about buying stuff and being a consumer than I did when I didn't have kids. It just, it changes all that in a big bit, almost instantly I found for me at least. Yeah, no, you just like utility. That's like what it comes down to. Like I care about utility now. I'm like, what is gonna make our family function smoother and like nothing bright and shiny. Like I don't care about that. Like it's not, that's not even, even cool things that you would ordinarily buy to feel good about yourself. It's like, my son was to look at something that I bought. Like he would question like, why did you get that? And I'd have to answer that question. He's like, well, you see there's this like gap in my manhood. That's such a cool lens though. I share that all the time when people ask me, like what's one of the biggest differences now, now that I have a son. And I was like, I look at things through that lens now that I would have never looked at. Yeah, what would my son say? Or what would he ask if he caught me doing that or saw me do that? And he asked me about it. And then I had to respond to him. Like looking through that lens really gives you this unique perspective on like, oh, wow, geez, how would I communicate that of blowing that money or doing that or acting that way or talking about something like that? Like, that's such a unique thing about fatherhood that I didn't see coming. And then afterwards it was a big change for me. What do you, when you, when you see your five year old and three year old, we were kind of talking about the society right now and how different the landscape is to just already in this generation compared to our generation. What are you concerned about most and or what do you think about most like with their, like their upbringing and how it's gonna be different? And like, what do you see as one of the most concerning things? Yeah, I mean, I would be lying if I didn't address kind of the elephant in the room that's probably related to my brand too, is like, what's gonna happen? I guess he's just gonna be like super sedentary. Everything's gonna go to tech and like there's nothing I can do about this because it's just the way the world is gonna be. And it's like, is he gonna be dependent on your technology and pharmaceuticals just to keep them alive? Like I really do think about that. Like that's like, what kind of quality of life is that? Then there's the selfish things. Like, is he going to get to experience the cool things that I got to experience with, you know, being outdoors and backpacking and is that stuff even gonna exist? You know, is he going to even have a desire to have a family? Is he going to enjoy the thrills of like getting a driver's license and driving a car? Or is it all gonna be like self driving things? Like, is he gonna, these like visceral things that like I enjoy, but I also try not to look at it from a selfish perspective with that is to be like, you know, there is a season for everything. And if he's gonna grow up in a season where things are different, that might be the way it is. I don't want him just to share the same experiences I had. Like, I just want him to be happy. But I don't want, and I say him because I'm speaking about my son, but in my daughter, it's going to be this similar situation, but I think there's gonna be different challenges for men and women as we go forward. And, you know, with my son, it's like just, is there gonna be, is this gonna be a world of just anxiety and depression? Like our younger generations are kind of experiencing now. Like, is he just gonna be stressed out all the time? Like, how can I give him the tools to be confident in himself and be able to find happiness with himself? And I explain this to him now, and I'm gonna continue to iterate as he gets older that I always say, and I say it to other people too. If you cannot be happy in a room with nothing in it, then you have work to do. Like, and what I mean by that is like, you need to be able to be happy with just absolutely nothing and sitting happy with yourself, right? And hopefully I can instill that in him where he just kind of learns, okay, I need to look inside and I need to feel happy with what I'm accomplishing because that's where like that true dopamine hit comes from your satisfaction with yourself. And then with my daughter, I look at the situation like, well, is like, I don't even know what to think there because like things are just so bizarre. So I guess she like, does she need to become stronger? Does she need to like, does she need to take on the roles of that my son would normally take on more is just to survive and just to defend. It's bizarre and I can relate with my son more because as a man, I look at him like, what's gonna happen to you as a man? My daughter, I'm like dumbfounded. I don't even, and I don't wanna sound totally pessimistic about the way the world is going. It's not like my intent. I think there's positive attributes to things that are happening, but it's just a bizarre time to be growing up. Oh yeah, 100%. It's hard to be prepared for it because it changes so damn quickly. You choose the homeschool, how come? Well, I mean, there's the logistical reasons that we travel a lot, right? There's, that's a simple logistical reason, but I also am a firm believer that I think my kids are gonna learn a lot more traveling with us and seeing the world than they ever would in a conventional school system. You know, and we're in the process of finding like hybrid school options where they can still go to school a couple of days per week, but they're not gonna be truent if we take them out and we go somewhere, right? So I really think that I wanna teach my kids how to care for themselves, how to be entrepreneurs, how to make money while providing value to people, but also just have real world experiences. I look back and I might shoot myself on the foot for saying this, but I mean, the conventional school system is just kind of busted. Like I feel like we were just talking about it before. It just doesn't make sense to me. It's just like, I'm just like, I spent so much, and then I look back at my childhood, like escaping from preschool and shit, like I'm like, I've been like, my mom did teach me from day one that like if everyone's going this way, go that way. You know, and that was like just how I've grown up. So I look at, I mean, more and more people are homeschooling now. Like obviously we're finding it difficult to even be able to get our son into like hybrid charter school options because there's wait lists. We're not the only ones thinking this. So it's a real thing. And the good side of that is I think there's going to be a lot more options available for people that are homeschooling. Cause when we were kids, the homeschool kids were kind of the weirdos. You know, I don't think that's the case anymore. I think homeschool kids are like, oh, your parents are out of the box thinkers, cool. Yeah, and there's a million and one different ways to do it. I used to think that you like, you stayed at home and your mom that gave you books and acted like the teacher did in the classroom. But I had some clients years ago that homeschooled and they totally educated me and they're like, no, it's like you facilitate and you organize it and you make it, you can make it look so many different ways. And I said, well, what if your kid hates math? Like how are they gonna learn math if they hate it? So well, you know, our son hates math, but he loves cars. So we teach him about the ratios of the gears and the engine and the pressure and this and that. I'm like, you know, blight bulbs going off for me. I'm like, holy cow, like, of course, like if you love cars, you're gonna learn math that way, way better than you would sitting down with somebody trying to force something, you know, down your throat, which, you know, so I mean, my younger ones, we're probably gonna do the same thing. That's why I ask you that. Do you guys, so you're looking at hybrid systems and what do you guys do on those off days? Do you take them out and try to, you know, like do you pick a topic or do they lead it? Like, hey, they're into this. So let's go look at this thing over here. Like, how does that work? Yeah, so I mean, we're fortunate enough, you know, we live in Carmel, it's a beautiful area. My son's super into the water, super into the ocean. So, you know, a lot of times like once a week we'll go down and like tide pool and like teach him about, you know, animals in the ocean, teach him about sea life, teach him about tide pools. And he's a super into that. The kid's probably gonna be a marine biologist. Like he's just so into it. So we also leverage where we live to try to like give him experiences that other kids might not have. You know, my daughter's three, so she's not really, she's into anything right now. So, you know, my son also, you know, we have horses. So we just like teach them a lot about animals and teach them a lot of that. And at five years old, it's just teaching them about life right now. You know, we still have a fair share of, yes, there's some really cool programs like ABC mouse and stuff like that that are interesting things where, you know, for 15, 20 minutes, yeah, he can go on a tablet and learn some stuff that's a little more fundamental, like basics. But we also, you know, we spend a lot of time up in Tahoe. So I mean, learns a lot of different things up there. So the kid is just gonna be very, very well versed in different experiences. And, you know, we travel a lot. So it's like, you know, some goals, like we say, well, okay, once a year we wanna do an international trip where we spend three or four weeks and really like immerse them. Like you wanna learn about the pyramids, let's actually go to Egypt. Now granted, I mean, that's not necessarily realistic for everybody, but you know, if we take one solid trip and we say this is gonna be the one international trip, I mean, that's not that economically out of reach if you really think about it. Like you're not going on multiple vacations. Most people when they say, okay, I'm gonna go on vacation for spring break, go on a vacation over summer and winter break, like, okay, well, if we pick one good destination we actually immerse ourselves there for like three weeks and let them learn. So that's kind of a goal that we have right now. How do you guys manage the tablet? I always liked talking to fathers that got young kids right now and have been around now, obviously tech. How do you guys manage that right now? You know, I don't wanna say we're loose with it because we're not, but we do come from the school of thought that the more that you fight against something, the more they're gonna really try to get it and want it. So I think the tablet is something that it needs to constructively be put in place. I think, and Peter Atia talked about this, like anything with screen time, it was a really interesting study that he pulled. It was like anything with screen time as long as you are doing it with them and you are lifting them up through the process and it is a learning experience and it's a bonding experience, it's different than giving to them to babysit. Right, it's a tool rather than distraction. So we really are careful about that. We don't just throw games willy-nilly. The one time that we will let them play on their tablet is if we're on a long flight and we try to preserve it. It's just so that if it's like white noise, right? It's such a hack, just by the way what you just said. Oh my God, try flying with two little kids. It's how, because I think we use it in a similar fashion, it's a very powerful tool when you need it like that because we don't abuse it and he doesn't get to just watch cartoons on it whatever he wants. It's normally educational or interacting with us and we have small windows, but then when we also get on a four and a half hour flight like we just did just recently and a little bit of that time, if he gets restless, we can put that and then now he's good. And I think that when you use it judiciously like that, it has that powerful effect. Where I have my other friends, their kids, they can use it at car, I mean, whenever they want and they're on it all the time and then they get over it on the plane flight within a half hour hour because it's something that's usual in their life. So I think that's a smart strategy. Any plans on another one? No, we're done. My wife actually had his direct to me last year anyway because she's got some autoimmune issues. She wouldn't care about me saying that, she's public about it. But yeah, so that's definitely out of the equation for us. But we've talked about, maybe in a few years, we don't know if we really do miss the baby stage considered adopting. But I think we're good with two. We got the boy, the girl, we're... Yeah, and you just got out of the woods. I mean, three years old, still hard, but the first year and two was like, ugh. It's nuts. What's your favorite spots in Carmel? Where do you like to eat and go down there? We go down boys all the time. It's a place, a simple place called the Village Corner. You know that place in Carmel? I love that place because they will just modify anything and they don't care. So like I can like pick things, I can be that total pain in the ass and just be like, can you give me that with that on it? And that, and they're super cool. So that place is great. There was a great place called, they got rid of their gluten-free pancakes now. So like my wife with her autoimmune issues can't have gluten, it really flares her up. So there was a place called Katie's Place that had amazing gluten-free pancakes. But just in the last couple of months, they stopped serving them. Whack! Yeah. Tuckhouse is really good. Was it Porge in the Forest? Or Forge in the Forest? Couple I haven't had yet, okay. Yeah, that one's really good. Vesuvio's good if you like pizza. Yeah. Man, this is like, I mean, it's like a hot spot. So good, so good down there. And then there's a grocery store in Monterey called Elroy's. You've been to Elroy's? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, that place is like, like their hot bar is unreal. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Well, this has been great, man. I really appreciate you coming on the show and opening up a great conversation. I think we all have a lot in common. And you definitely seem to be one of the good people in the fitness space. It's not a lot, but I think you're definitely one of them. So appreciate what you do, man. Thank you. Thanks for coming on the show. Likewise. Thank you. Today, we're going to teach you everything you need to know to build a strong, well-developed chest. When I think of weak points and areas that I struggled with developing for a really long time, the chest was up there with the work. Yeah, it was for me. It was for me for sure. I got more caught up in the weight I could lift versus how I was developing my body. I think it's one of the most challenging muscles to develop for most people because the form and technique.