 You're listening to Barbell Logic, brought to you by Barbell Logic Online Coaching, where each week we take a systematic walk through strength training and the refining power of voluntary hardship. Welcome back to Barbell Logic. This is producer Trent. Matt is not here today because he is out on vacation and celebrating his 20th anniversary. So first of all, congrats to Matt and Miss Rachel Reynolds for 20 years. And since Matt is out, today what we're going to do is hear from some of the rest of the Barbell Logic staff. Nikki Sims and Andrew Jackson got on Zoom and recorded a discussion about coaching and specifically what they get out of coaching. So this is a little bit different spin on things. We've talked about the benefits of coaching here as a new lifter and it's kind of obvious, right? A coach can help you get started with excellent technique. A coach can make sure that that technique stays good and stays consistent over time. A coach can help you navigate programming, can even help you with nutrition, all sorts of stuff. So a coach is a wonderful thing for a new lifter, but coaches are also useful for people that have been lifting for a long time. As we've talked about many times in the programming episodes and on the MED master class, programming gets kind of complicated when you're an advanced lifter. But even beyond that, coaching can also serve as a source of accountability to make sure that you're staying on top of your training and also a way to keep things fresh. You know, working with a coach that has different experiences than you that has a different knowledge base can introduce you to some training methods and help you push your fitness in a direction that you may have ever considered before. So in short, coaches need coaches and advanced lifters need coaches. And that's what Andrew and Nikki are going to talk about today. Now, please bear in mind that with all the COVID stuff going on right now, it's very difficult to get audio equipment and create the same kind of recording environment that you're used to with Matt and Scott. So what you're going to hear today is from Andrew and Nikki's Zoom feed. And we did the best we could with it, but the audio is not quite up to the same standard that you're used to here at Barbell Logic. But we're doing the best we can with the circumstances being what they are. So without further ado, let's listen to what Andrew and Nikki have to say about coaching. Welcome to the Barbell Logic podcast. And I was also going to welcome you to the Barbell Logic podcast. We're officially hijacking this from Matt, who's both of our coaches. That's right. Yeah, it feels like we're being sneaky, although I think he'll be totally okay with us. Yeah. He's on vacation, so ask us to record a podcast. Yeah. It was interesting because we were talking the other day, totally unrelated. Hold on there, Mr. People need to know who I'm listening to. So of course, I am going to introduce my co-host here. This is Andrew Jackson. I'd be surprised if most of you don't know who he is, but he is Barbell Logic's vice president of, what is it again? Operations. It's been a hard time. He's our vice president of operations, which involves a lot of processes and spreadsheets and workflow stuff and things that he's really good at and things that I'm not very good at. So if that works really well. He's also an Instagram celebrity for lifting in the forest, which he doesn't do anymore. Now he's got like a normal person garage, but he's like one of just, he's just a cool neat dad who lifts. Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And I am here with Nikki Sims. Of course, everyone on this podcast knows who that is. Our vice president of human resources and a coach with Barbell Logic for over three years now. It's the very beginning of time. December 2016. In fact, we were one of, we were both two of the initial 16. Yeah. That's true. We've been working together for a while and I'm excited to do this podcast. Yeah. Likewise. We have, we get, we actually have a lot of interesting stuff in common because like Andrew said, we are both coached by Matt. We're both coaches. So we have kind of an interesting perspective. Being coaches and getting coached and talking about our coach behind his back. Yeah. And I think that was kind of how the idea for this podcast got started is that we were chatting. And I just started feeling curious about as an advanced lifter yourself and an experienced coach, what you feel like you get the most value out of coaching or having a coach, I guess I should say. And so I'm kind of interested in getting to ask you a bunch of questions about your experience with being coached and what it is that you like about having a coach. Okay. That's, that's sort of like the theme, I think. Yeah. I kind of like that since I think a lot of our listeners are getting coached or want to be coaches or think about lifting all the bloody time like we do. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think sometimes people wonder like, well, if I've been doing this for a while, do I really need a coach? Yeah. You've been, you've been lifting for over 10 years now, right? I think so. If you count my CrossFit days as lifting, but yeah, I've been doing things in the gym for a long time. And yet still find value in having a coach. Yeah. Even more so over the last couple of years. So I worked with, I've actually worked with Matt twice. I worked with him probably three years ago, closer to when Barbell Logic first started and then I fired him. I don't know if I remember why and I wasn't even working with him for that long, which I know is a problem is that it really takes a minute, especially as an advanced lifter to get used to things. Yeah. How did that conversation go? Gosh, let's see if I remember the medium. I probably did something shady like break up over text. It's the one liner we're done. It's not you. It's definitely me. Oh, always, always. I have definitely been ghosting, attention, everybody in the world better than ghosting. It is funny though how whenever somebody, a client leaves, it always feels like a breakup. Oh my God. Every email or text or message I've ever gotten, I could copy, paste that into a breakup message. Yeah. So do you feel like he was there any emotional tension there, especially because you were working for him at the time? Yeah. I think it felt okay to me and honestly I don't really remember anything negative about it. So I think it felt okay. I think it was just like me just needing to like explore and figure things out. And so you went to go coach yourself for a period of time? Yeah. How'd that go? I coached myself not very well. I notice there's like a phase of lifters where they start lifting and then they get a coach for a little while and then they start to get enough knowledge to be danged with programming them like, okay, I'm going to program for myself. I don't think programming for yourself is a great idea because you were the worst. Maybe some people are better at this, but like it's so hard to be biased when you coach yourself. Like so easy to think like, oh, that squat didn't go well, time to pivot. www.powerliftingprograms.com, what can I do now? Right. So easy to lose sight of the bigger picture and just make like more emotional reactions or I think I was running off of like RPE program. So it's just like that completely opened the door for just like, well, how do you feel about that? What do you feel you should do next? And oh, was that too hard? There's like just like, no, not go well. Right. A lot of variables that you're all having to try to evaluate while reacting to it also physically, emotionally, psychologically. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So you rehired Matt out of that as well. Yeah. Yeah. And that went pretty well, although it still took us a long time to get into a pretty good kind of beat and I know we have like a really difficult meet together where I like totally had a terrible meet and you probably have some perspective on this. But like, man, when you have a client who's competing, that is a gut wrenching day. Oh, yeah. Way worse than being a competitor in my experience. You just feel everything and you know how hard your client works. So like, you know, online for them. And you also know that things can be a bit unpredictable on meet day. Not everything is unpredictable, but like you can't have as much control over it as you want. And so, you know, if they don't have a good meet day, it's just like, shit. Yeah. In their hearts. So coming out of that, though, you stayed with him. Yeah. And have since had good meets. Yeah. Then we felt really good meets. So how did you go about that? Like when you're kind of debriefing or evaluating the programming up to the meet, the performance of the meet, how do you know whether to stay or how did you decide to stay working with him until the I think what's been really important for me is to give myself a cooling off period after a competition or after a big day has I know I'll get really worked up about competitions. No, I'm not. And so if it doesn't go how I want it to go, or even if it goes well, I still have to have like a cooling off period. And I'll usually share some of that information with my coach or with Matt and just be like, I think this went really well. That kind of stuff. And thank you. I just always try to be really grateful. But I think it's good to have like a week or so cooling off period before you like make a huge shift because, you know, you have so much on the line, but like after that, or maybe during that time frame, I think it's good to ask some hard questions. Like why did why do you think this happened? Was it because of this? And maybe it's not sometimes it's really productive for what is going to happen with the programming next time, but I think it's really productive just to like get some shit off your chest. Because like you might have some things where like you went a certain way during a part of your programming cycle. And that's happened to me where she's like, why did we do that? Like, this wasn't how we did it before. Like, but then, you know, you're, you're trusting. You're trying to be in that relationship where you're trusting your coach, but then, you know, when you're looking at it from, you know, that after your third deadlift, like things look different. I think it's good to actually have those conversations. And it's good to have a coach who you can have those conversations with so that you can go into the next few months or whatever programming knowing that you can be listened to. And that you actually can analyze what didn't work well. Right. So you have a collaborative kind of a relationship with your coach and like you ask or you suggest things that you'd like to try and program and kind of dialogue about where to go next or how to change things going forward. Yeah. And sometimes I just do it. Yeah. Sometimes those squeaky wheel. Sometimes I'm just like, I'm just going to start doing walking lunges and glute bridges. And then I'll let him know about it. But I think the interesting thing for you and I is that we've been coaching for a long and then we coach. So it's like, am I going to try and be a know-it-all? Or am I going to listen? Right. Right. Yeah. That's a tough line to walk. And then even for Matt, like as him as our coach, I imagine he's like, well, I won't have to explain this because she probably already knows because she's a coach. When I'm coaching people who are advanced, like I have to make sure that I'm not taking for granted things that I should be explaining to them. Right. Right. Yeah. So that's your current state. What's back up a bit to the beginning? Like what how did you what was your first coach? Like what was that? Do you remember your first coach and what that experience was like? Like what thing or just anything? Or in general, yeah. Like how you weren't in sports or growing up. I'm curious like your kind of the evolution of your experience with coaching from as far back as you can remember along the way. There's anybody that's I remember playing soccer when I was in, like I think I was in elementary school. I hated it, but you played soccer. What did you hate about it? I hated the running. I just like I hate the pressure is like because I'm not very good. And so but if I mess it up, like all the parents are just like they're a disappointment. Not my parents, but like parents of the kids who are actually good. Like and I don't know if they should that, but man, I felt that. I got it. I got it. And like, you know, if you like miss a pass or whatever, he's like miss a goal, like. Well, yeah, so not a huge like not a major life impact if a coach kind of experience. Was there a first coach where you. I mean, because you've not made coaching your career, your profession. And maybe maybe it hasn't happened. It certainly did for me. But I'm curious if there was a coach along the way somewhere that maybe it was in sports, maybe it was just in life or somebody that you considered a coach that stood out to you in a way that made it seem like something that. That you want to pursue or that you really appreciated the influence that a good coach could have. Or maybe not. Maybe you just didn't experience that until you became a coach yourself. Well, yeah, I think when I started getting into CrossFit, I joined a CrossFit gym. It was a two coach there. OK, the names and, you know, that's it was shortly after I started doing that, that I totally switched careers from being an estimator in sort of general contracting firm to being a CrossFit coach. And it came with a huge pay raise, I imagine. So yeah, I think the impact that they provided was, I know that you could have really you can have a lot of fun with it. And there are lots of things that you could do with it. And I don't know, I think it's more of the community. So I'm curious with all the experiences that you've had with coaches along the way, what are the things that stand out to you as what makes them the great coaches, at least, what makes them good? Like, what is it that they they do for you or how they work with you that that you think makes it worthwhile to have a coach makes your experience better as a lifter? Yeah, that's definitely something that's changed over the course of lifting for so long. But, you know, when it's when it's early on, like, you want them to help you fix everything, like fix my back flexion or like, why are my knees always caving? And like, why haven't I hit a PR on forever? And it's just like, fix everything to fix everything for me. And then I think it shifts where you start to learn how to take more responsibility for things. And then being more advanced, I like having I've actually liked having the same coach for a long amount of time because the same cues that I hear over and over again, I still get the same cues over and over again on some things. Yeah, yeah. Elbow flair. Yeah, I've never heard that one before. Elbow flair too? Every single bench session. I actually get my favorite now is he calls it on like rep one. He'll say that it was good, but he'll be like, I'm waiting for it or like waiting for three or something like that. Like here comes the elbow flair because he gives me video feedback like real time. So he's like, he's like the color commenting the reps for a set of five and calls the elbow flair shot, like three reps ahead. Yep. And even like while I'm benching, I'm like, and I just know I'm like, okay, well, he's going to tell me about my elbow flair. Even though I can't feel it, I can't feel elbow flair. Can anybody feel elbow flair? And if you can, please let me know. Please call in right now. You need elbow flair and an honest or something like that. But honestly, even that has made me, and I'm maybe I've just adapted to it. And I was like, well, I'm going to figure out a way to fix it. Yeah. And so it makes me kind of explore ways to, but he lets me know that that's important. And I'm just like, okay, well, that cue doesn't work, but I'm going to fix it. Yeah. I mean, I think it's, for me, having Matt as a coach, even though like I joke about the elbow flair situation, but having somebody who's got that experience and attention to detail and just kind of relentless expectation that things need to get better. And he keeps focusing on smaller and smaller and smaller points. And some of them are really chronic patterns that are difficult to change. But that processes has made my lifting significantly better in the time that I've worked with him. And I don't, you know, if I, even though I made some progress when I was coaching myself, I let myself get away with a lot of those things, right? I wouldn't quite hold that same standard. And that's one of the things you get away with. Oh, well, my bench in particular was super sloppy. And you was like, didn't bench, right? I, well, yeah. First of all, I just would not program it because I didn't appreciate it. Well, what, and that's actually another thing that I found is that I would not do things because I didn't appreciate the complexity of it or I didn't see all those details. And it was actually a combination of working with Jordan Stanton at a bench press camp and also Matt Reynolds as a coach that I was able to start seeing some of the finer points of even something like the bench, which, you know, typically is sort of like the bro lift that people just kind of. Much great stuff for the bench. There is. And well, and you actually at some of the seminars, you've, there's been a couple of times where you've pointed out a detail or you've used a cue and it just shifts my perspective on, on the lift. And I'm able to see that level of detail. And I think that's true anytime you, you talk to somebody or you meet somebody who understands something at the level of depth that you don't see and you're able to step into that perspective. And, and then you can appreciate something at a level that, that you didn't before. So that definitely changed for me with something like the bench, which I enjoy a lot more now. Yeah. Do you think that that also applies to like programming? So working with the coach will be like, okay, well, I will get to learn about programming now from another. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that the more advanced you are in your career having that insight from a coach who's done more programming options or programming, use different tools or different exercises or variations that I didn't have experience with. And, you know, as a lifter, you build comfort and experience with, with different programs or different exercises and having somebody program stuff that's outside of your comfort zone. And maybe you don't have experience with, I think helps add that to your, your toolkit, not only as a lifter, but then also as a coach there's things that I'm more confident using for my clients because I've had that involved in my program. So he's definitely brought in different rep schemes, you know, different variations. I bought chains recently. I hadn't really, I'd used them a few times in my past, but I definitely think that makes a difference. Yeah. It's like a, it's like cooking and baking. It's just like you learn to get like more confident with trying something or you just know like, oh, that combination doesn't work well with each other. Right. This is a time when we need to be really precise and exact versus this is a time when we can be a little more fluid and change things and the more, it gives you more confidence to kind of explore that. Right. And also different, different experiences with problems or sticking points. I think it's something that is a huge value is a huge value of that, of having a coach that somebody who's encountered those, those problems or sticking points or encounter them with different people or more people. So instead of what I, what I experienced personally is that and where I think a coach no matter what level you are can make a difference is that you can figure a lot of this stuff out on your own, I think, or you could program for yourself or you could try to fix technical issues. But the time that it takes is orders of magnitude longer to figure it out. If you're trying to do your first program by yourself you're going to run into almost weekly you're going to run into problems that you're trying to figure out for the first time that somebody else has coached people through hundreds of times and they're simple problems to fix. So you might figure it out in three to six months whereas the coach can get you through in a week or session and the same is true even at the advanced level. It's more complex, there's more variables, there's different problems, but I think having coached there enables you to get through those, those sticking points faster. That I've equated and I've equated like coaching to like learning a language or even lifting to learning a language. Even used to lifting like the very basic like Banished 101 where it's just like, how do you say shoes? How do you say hair? How do you say student? And it's like, of course that you've never really used. Right, right. And that's also you could even equate it just lifting on your own or just like, oh I'm going to download an app and try and learn a language. It's like, I'll just walk around my house and say this is bread and this is water. You actually start to need to have a conversation then you start to learn about like, oh now I need to figure out how to use this word and now I need to put this sentence together and then the longer and longer you learn it and study it and interact with it, like it just is like becomes part of your, you think in that language. And I think that's a really cool thing that happens to like a more advanced coach is that it's not just like seeing something and regurgitating something. It's just like, you'll see something and you can predict something and also know like all the other branches of where that might be coming from and it's coming from talking about it and having coach and actually being curious and like making a lot of connections. Right. And then for the rest of your life, you can say don't be a starlet babyloteca. It's just like cemented in place. Good. So one of the other questions I think I asked you that got me thinking about this also was I was curious actually, I think we were talking about the elbow flare and it got me curious like because we get feedback on every single session and you know, do you even as an advanced lefter, do you find value in getting feedback on all three lifts every session? Yes, I do. Tell me about that. Yeah, I was thinking that and I mean, maybe I just like someone paying attention to me. I think that's probably a big thing that a lot of us, maybe not all of us will admit. But most of my lists and depending on where I am in the program, most of my lists are going to look fine. It's just like okay, this is just like kind of volume work like you know what you're doing. But maybe there's something, it makes me stay accountable even during those phases where it's just like if I know that someone's going to be looking at this and like I better not take a round, I better do what I'm supposed to be doing. So I find that helpful even if it's just like, yeah, that looks good. But it also provides, and this works for online coaching, there's going to be a mechanism of communication. So if I do have a question, I'm not sure of anything, that's where I know I can ask it and I will get an answer. So like the portal is open. So I find it really helpful. And I honestly think that it makes the coach pay attention more. Like if you're only getting a couple workouts looked at every month or even every week, like they just don't get to see as much. And so when programming does change and when things get a little more important, like as the weight on the bar goes up and things get more meaningful like towards a competition or something, they know where you've come from. Yeah, I think it's hugely important as a coach to watch all the videos in every single session. I build, and I don't even know if I do it intentionally, but I feel like I develop an eye for the lifters bar speed, their kind of emotional state. I can start to read their body language, how they react to the lift or just how they, whether they're attacking the lift or whether it looks like there's something going on. There's been many, many times where the day itself, there's nothing in particular really special about it. It might need to just be a light day. And there's something about the way they're moving or the way they're behaving that I pick up on and maybe I make a comment on. And oh, it turns out there's this big other thing happening in their life. And they wouldn't have said anything about it. Like they would have just kind of posted the numbers and moved on. But because we are paying attention to every single day, every single lift, I think it builds that relationship like you're talking about. There's a communication there that goes beyond just the sets, reps and the weight that you did and whether you got it done or not. I don't even know if I could program very well. I mean, I could, but I don't, I wouldn't be as confident about my program. And I really hate when I have to program without seeing videos. It feels good because I'm like, well, I'm done in like four minutes, but it's also just like, well, I just viewed out stuff. I don't really know if it's going to work. It's like just drive by and I don't like it. Yeah. And the margin of error or buffer that you have to like build into the program is significantly greater. I think so you can get a, I think the program can be more, a lot more effective. Also when you're following along with their kind of, with their evolution. Yeah. Because it's interesting too that you don't necessarily know how they're going to respond to some changes. And then when you see that the bars flying, the bar speeds flying, when you thought it was going to be a grinder, it can, you know, it could definitely change the direction. I think for me it's like, I need my coach to have a lot of faith in what's coming up for me today. Like I need to just be like, you've, I need, and I will do everything that I can in my power so that I can say, I have done everything that I can to get ready for this competition. I like being able to go into a meeting thinking that. Yeah. And so then if my coach is always just can agree with that, then I feel really good going into me. And if they give me like a couple of cues to think about, not, I don't need to freaking hear, keep your knees out on your squat. Like I, that is the last thing I need to hear. Like I need them to know what happens to me when I'm lifting super heavy weight so that they can prepare me for that, not to have the textbook lifts. Right. Right. Yeah. And you know, like there are some points where it's really nice when a coach matches your level of care, you know, and that's why it's good. And I have had a lot of dialogue with Matt about this stuff too. And she'd like, you know what, Matt, for my squat and meet day, I just want to go three for three. I don't care about it. That's fine. So there, you know what, they're going to get there. He's going to help me get three for three on my squat. That's cool. And it's like, Bench, you know what, I really want to, I really want to hit a PR, like what do we have to do to hit a PR? And then it's just like, you know what, I want to go all out for my deadlift. What do I have to do for that? Right. And so I tell them how important certain things are, and then they like reaffirm, reaffirm the importance of that. Yeah, that's, that's really interesting that it's, it's not just that the coach cares, it's the matched care that I think was what you called it. Like they need to be on the same page as you about what's important at that particular time. And I think that actually connects also to that having that relationship and that kind of constant communication, because those things change all the time, right? Like maybe right now it's lunges and glubridges that matters. Maybe right now it's the, the, the deadlift or the bench or the total, you know, and different, that can totally change the program and priorities. The thing that's interesting there though is you can't, coaches can't get taken advantage of by their lifters. I see that with a lot of newer coaches where it's just like, well, my client really wants to do this now. So then they like flip-flop over to this and just like there, there has to be, the coach has to really, you know, have a stake in the ground and be like, you know what, I can, I'm hearing that you want this. It seems like this is actually what's important to you. Is that still corresponding to what you told me three weeks ago? Like if there's a lot of flip-flopping, like if it's a flip-flop every month, something else is going on. And I found that the more coaches cater to those kind of wins, the sooner the client leaves because it ends up having to have a backbone. Interesting. And you see that across the, like you have that perspective of seeing every client, well, not anymore for a long time. You were seeing every cancellation and interacting with them. That's something you picked up from, from watching that. Yeah. And from like, from, you know, maybe like difficult client interactions where it's like, and this, I know I've done this before. And I'm not saying anything that I've never done, like I'm totally done there. It's like, well, my client wants to do this and I feel like they need to do what they want. These are their goals and here I am to support them with their goals, but they just keep moving around all over the time, all over the place. Like how can I still be the professional that I'm supposed to be for them, but also not get walked all over, you know? And maybe it's just that they want something that you can't give them as their strength coach. Right. Yeah. You have to like actually dig in like, where's, where's this coming from? Kind of. Yeah. Yeah. What do you do like when you try to find out what the client actually needs? I try to ask them as many questions as I can to get them talking about what they care about. It kind of goes back to your like, what, what do you care about match? That's the starting point. And I think from there it's, I mean, I'm a strength coach. So I'm always going to perceive and funnel things through how can I work with what they want and what they say they have the capacity to do and steer that towards getting stronger. Otherwise, it's not a match for me because my job is to help people get stronger. Yeah. So I mean, there's, I guess you could argue that there's an agenda that I have. But it's your job to have that. But that's my job, right? Like they hired me ostensibly to get stronger. And so I try to look at what they have. And this goes for both my nutrition clients and my lifting clients. What I'll see is along with bar speed, a lot of what I'm monitoring is compliance. And compliance changes over time. And I, that was something that changed with, that I picked up on really early on with online coaching is I would have these clients that would quit. And I think, well, wow, they were getting PRs, they were making all this progress. And I started reflecting on, you know, what was leading up to them quitting and nine times out of 10, I saw the compliance drop off. And it wasn't necessarily low compliance because some people just have consistently low compliance. But it was a, it was a change in compliance. So if somebody went from 100% day after day, a week after week, month after month, and then all of a sudden they dropped down to like 80 or 70. And they were just kind of like bouncing around. I used to just kind of think, Oh, maybe that was just a bad week. Somebody starts fluctuating compliance. Now I'm immediately asking like, what's going on? Everything okay with work, like everything okay with life. And behind that, what I'm really trying to understand is not only what they care about, but what they have the capacity to do. Because a lot of times with our programming, we get wrapped around the axle about like, well, what's the optimal volume or intensity? Yeah, we like how it looks on the computer. Right. And we've got these frameworks of three days a week or four days a week or X and number of slots. But if the client doesn't have capacity to do it because it's a two hour workout, right? Or because it's a 90% effort at the end of a day that they just don't have the energy to do it, or they open up the app and they see they've got a 90% single. They just shut it down and they don't even do it, you know? So like an effective program and what the client quote unquote needs, I'm listening for a combination of what they care about, what's motivating them, and what they have capacity to do with an aim towards getting stronger or as strong as I can get them. Because some people do come back and say, you know what? Sometimes they say, I really don't want to be maximally strong right now. I don't want to be grinding on 1RMs or PR right now. Some people just go through phases where I want to go on a two-day bike ride in the mountains, mountain bike ride. Or I've got one guy who's a swimmer and competes regularly in the pool and he's not going to be setting lifetime squat PRs necessarily like the week or two before. Sometimes he can, but anyway, priorities and capacity I think are the big things that I'm listening for. Well, this is a bit of a non sequitur, but it goes back to some of the early questions on the good coaching. Like, do you have an idea in your mind of like who you want to be as a coach or like what the best version of yourself as a coach is? Like as a lifter, we have a model. We look at ourselves and say, okay, yeah, we're squatting well. How do you do that for yourself as a coach? Man, that's tough. And I feel like I'm going to answer this and all my clients are going to be like, wow, it doesn't do that at all. I think I want to always be someone who they can trust with for programming, but I also really want to make sure that I'm honest because it's like I'm not the best programmer in the world. I don't know who is. It's not entirely predictable, but I always want to be honest with like what I think is going to work and what I think I did wrong and but still I don't want to when I open that door, I don't want to lose my my position of being the person that they hired that they could trust. Who's the expert? You know, I think that's always a line that I'm trying to make sure I walk carefully, like acknowledging my mistakes, but also being the one who should know what the hell they're doing. But I like, I would like to be that kind of coach and I also would like to be the coach who stays curious and creative with how I communicate with them. Like I, you know, I have, I've had some clients who I've just had with me for years and I love getting to see their videos, but I know that I might say the same things over and over and over again and I want to be like really careful that I don't do that because that bothers me. And so I've found that I have to make sure that I get really present to watching their their lift and I'll start to explain things. Like if I feel like I'm starting to say the same thing over and over again, I'll like explain why something goes a certain way and then I'll try and come up with a new cue for it. Like I try to be creative with how I'm trying to get my point across. Yeah, and I always want to match their level of care. You're like, oh, this is important to you? Okay, I want to make this important to you. What about you? So I see my role as a coach and what I strive to do as a coach is a combination of what I mentioned earlier, being able to see somebody for who they could become and be able to help them also see themselves in that way. I think of a client being on sort of their own personal strength journey. This might sound a little bit cheesy, but you know, they have some goal that they're aiming at, something that they're trying to accomplish, maybe it's health, maybe it's just absolute strength, maybe it's preparing for competition, whatever it might be, they're trying to get somewhere. And I see my role as a coach as a guide to help them. Somebody who's been on similar journeys before or similar paths, I have experience going towards those goals. And so I can help them kind of navigate that along the way. I can help them see themselves in that future state. Because I think oftentimes when, especially with something as transformative as strength, when you first start working with somebody, their concept of what they're capable of love is nowhere near what they actually are. When you first start lifting, 300 pounds sounds like a lot or 400 pounds or 500 pounds sounds insane when it can be for many people a normal amount of weight. And it's all obviously going to be specific to that individual. But whatever that number is, so people starting out can seem unattainable and just like mythical. And so I think one of the things that you can really help people with as a coach is to normalize that, to make it seem achievable and give that individual confidence and belief in their ability to get there. Sometimes I think that's half the battle is just believing that you can get there. And you hear that folks, you got to believe in yourself. Gotta believe. And then obviously there's the technical aspect of providing feedback to movements lifts, but importantly doing that in a way that the client can hear. There's I think it's a John Wooden quote that says a good coach is somebody who can provide feedback without creating a sense of resentment. So you can get out and post your videos on Instagram or the internet and get tons of feedback. But it's not going to be effective for you as a lifter if you can't hear it or if you can't accept it. And I think that's a skill of coaching that goes along with building a relationship and being a good communicator. And it's certainly in my experience throughout my life that the best coaches that I've had are the ones that are able to understand me enough and communicate in a way that's simple and effective in that most importantly I can actually hear. And that changes over time. Like you said, that changes on depending on the context, depending on your experience level. And I think that's part of the skill that I strive to do or that I strive to constantly improve is make sure that I'm communicating at the right level with my client. So yeah, I think that's kind of like the model that I approach and that I think underpinning a lot of that is that it's the lifter's path, not mine. So I am a strength coach and I'm always going to steer that direction, but it's their their journey. Which I think is important because I think there's been a lot of times I've seen or I've felt that either I in my sports or lifting career lost track of what it was that I was doing myself and I started doing things because it was important to somebody else. Yeah. This happened more when I was younger, I think, like getting caught up in caring what somebody else thought was important. But I think it's important for the client or the lifter to own their own training. Absolutely, absolutely. Feel that. That's big. Or else they'll be thinking like, oh, well, this lifter does this, so I need to lift that much or I need to lift this way or you know, I want this for Instagram. And then it's just like, it's not going to go anywhere. It doesn't really. Right. And I mean, the whole purpose that we're doing this to like in my the going back to the guide perspective is that, you know, there is going to be a time probably for every single client where they're going to move on to either a different coach or they're going to coach themselves. Like, I don't want them dependent on me. Like it's like the they are a capable independent human that wants us to work with me because I can help them. Yeah, that's an interesting thing, actually. Like when a client like they need to ask you for every single thing, you're not doing their job right. Right. They're not doing their job right. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's not a what's the there's probably some psychological term like codependent or there's some like it needs to it needs to be a healthier relationship with good boundaries. Each person's kind of owning their part. Yes. Yeah, the B word. Do we need to talk about that? That's a whole another 19 podcast episodes. Yeah. But yeah, I think the important things we talked about were like, understanding how things are going to shift over the lifespan of a client or of a lifter and of a client coach relationship, making sure there's like a pathway for communication to stay open. Just speaking so that what they're saying can be heard. Yeah. You know, matching care like that one a lot. Yeah. So that's two people talking about coaching. Yeah. That makes a podcast. And to wrap up, Andrew, where can people find you? What's your home? Yes. Well, I can be found on Instagram at Andrew Barbender and at BarbellLogic.com. Yeah, great. How about you, Nikki? Any more openings for coaching? But I am on the grams at there and I, there's a winner score in there between Vera and Mass. And that's the only place anybody else needs to know about boundaries. Yes. Good, healthy boundaries to be covered in the next next episode of Nikki and Andrew hijacking BarbellLogic podcast.