 Okay, we're back. It's five o'clock rock, and I'm here with Ray Tsuchiyama our old friend a may I say a citizen journalist? He writes for civil beings you got a ton of stuff on civil be and so we saw We as the editorial we of course we saw the article about about Raised last article a few days ago, and we called Ray and asked him to come down and explain himself This was this was about rail and it was about TOD and it was about Public-private partnerships for the development of rail here in Honolulu, and that is really an important discussion That we truly really have not yet had so good for you for writing the article Ray well Thank you very much because I see the development of the line with rail stations as Michael destinations. I will result in a Stimulus for the economy for the Hawaii economy creating new jobs, and that's the reason I wrote the article. Yeah, well But I guess there's another reason it hasn't happened yet We are not we're not you wouldn't suggest it if we were already doing it. That's correct That's right. Correct, and this conversation should have been happening 20 years ago or Back in the 80s when I did represent a Japanese consortium that proposed to build rail For essentially for free in exchange for the right for development of the rail stations in terms of mixed-use new condominiums apartments Restaurants all kinds of a retail. Yeah, let me let me just add a digressionary point Which you may or may not agree with you know This is not a state or for that matter a city that is heavily involved in good city planning As a matter of fact, I would say if you looked at it from that point of view it is unplanned it is it is Rows by itself like topsy. I mean a good example of the university topsy and a lot of these neighborhoods You couldn't even call them neighborhoods We used to have neighborhoods, you know along the way on colonial highway and the on the east and On Kamehameha highway on the west from town to town neighborhood, but you know with it post statehood With all the development so it all sort of blends in and there's no real defined neighborhood And we've lost something in the process neighborhoods are good and rail can be made You know to create neighborhoods and that's good Because neighborhoods are good for everybody will agree neighborhoods good for society But you know the problem with with with the whole thing is that what we conceived of rail See if you agree without thinking about this sure there were you know shibbolets about TOD transit or it was an aspirational thing but not a real plan and with no there's no flesh on those bones and So it really hasn't happened. So we have zero planning We have rail that is for the benefit of those Organizations who'd like to make a buck building things like you know contractors and unions They'd like to make them but nobody thought about exactly how it would change our city how we wanted to change our city How would change our quality of community life? We haven't thought about them Just think about it's like that that library in Kapole, you know the library without the books Everybody's really interested in building a library, but no books the same thing here But I just didn't building the rail and and spending 10-12 billion dollars on it and somehow make squeezing us to we pay But nobody's thinking about exactly how you plan around it plan the city So I commend you on raising the issue You know and let's discuss public-private partnerships Let's discuss how you actually put flesh on the bones and make TOD and Plan and build a new community because when you put rail down it's going to change the community You can either plan that or let it happen again topsy-turvy I'm finished. Well, that's a long Prologue digression every point if I can go back in time There was a electric trolley system in the early 20th century that ran up to the war and it's lighting beyond Ironically the Western most station for the trolley system was for chapter. There was limits of the city right near Middle Street And then it went down all the way by the Elks Club by Diamond Head It had another spur going on Wiley Avenue It used to be a vibrant down to London downtown in that area and it went up Oahu Avenue and The reason why they went up from From downtown all the way to university was that they needed a way to sell lots For people who to get to downtown from the university early on so it was and it is Analogist to having a transportation system to selling lots and and developing a suburb It was Manoa was a what one of the early suburbs when you think about it and new on and also And then comes a statehood and all the electric trolleys are shut down and and then we lose You know what while I have new kind of kids a vibrant business center and We lose the whole trolley system and by the early 60s We thought that we we could transform the city by what we now call H1 and that of course divided Monalua Gardens to industrial areas divided the city of Liliha Kalihi many areas and then And then other things that happened with a very tiny on King Street becoming one way and so forth and and but you're correct that if we had in 30 40 years ago planned out a more denser Inner core with a lot more people living it with with a transit line We could have a solved issue of a island with nine hundred fifty thousand people and six hundred thousand cars There's something bad about this and that we would not have used up as agriculture Was was was phased out with the sugar plantations But people believe that it would go on much longer, but as they would Come into play then housing the sprawling But if we had thought of it before and had a line going out there before the development and having people train And and not have cars and and you know live out there. This would be a very from Red Hill onwards it would have been a very verdant very Green area with like country homes and and agriculture and we wouldn't be able to be Self-sufficient in food and people would go out in day trips and children who go out and see real nature That's this and then we would have a dense but core but yet with with a rail line In that yeah, that would be a different home over. Yeah, it would have been and we weren't thinking of that because we were static You know we we think of well Let's hold the whole thing like it is we're gonna change anything and then we'll stamp rail right on top And then we'll deal with the effects later That's wrong you have to plan these things and you have to recognize that when you build rail it changes things and it can change it for the better it can change it for the worse and You can control that you can do good planning and control that the problem is that you know the politics got in the way as usual And we didn't do that and we're not doing that now and that's why your article is so important But I have to raise one one thing Okay, I've always you know I oppose real I still oppose real Although I recognize the reality. We're probably gonna have it one way or the other way too far down the track But hmm, you know problem is my daughter who is 11 Takes violin lessons At a home on Sierra Drive now you may say that's not a good, you know that breaks the zoning But let's not worry about it. So she has to go up there Okay, and I don't want to drive her if we have all this money that's in a rail I want her to be able to get to that violin teacher up Sierra Drive rail doesn't solve that problem now what you're suggesting Okay, is that we bring the violin teacher down? We bring all the businesses down from where they are we bring them closer to the rail We recreate the city around the TOD areas at the stops on the rail But what happens to the violin teacher? Well Purpose of rail or transportation systems, of course is to for ridership you have to be where riders are dense places So in sparsely areas and so forth. It doesn't work as as well But you know in terms of again going back to urban core Under the Honolulu the bus the one route That's the most lucrative and 24-7 and runs is a waki-ki alamona. That is a very very heavily used route now The issue is again going back to planning and I'm gonna switch Topics a little bit is that when you look at the line there is one downtown You know and then people say why are you saying this? Well in other places there are two or three Downtowns and you go from one downtown to the other now I'm gonna go back to what Did not happen as an employment center in couple day See if we had another downtown That's the impetus for people to go there and they would say oh it's hard to get there by car I would like to rail and they'll be controversial There'll be people going back and forth in the morning back and forth in the evenings And as a micro destination as you're correct We have to develop some kind of different Attraction for the stations especially on the west side because in a weekend nobody's thinking of going out there There's no reason to go, but if there's an attraction like a museum aquarium a zoo great food You know all kinds of retail something that draws people out. They're not gonna use the car Okay, okay, so we're in with a how question now we agree absolutely I think any reasonable person listening or otherwise would agree with us that You know you can do amazing things if you can build destinations on all parts of their on all the stations and the extremities Build things so people will go will use the rail the rail become useful The city will change and the violin teacher will open an office down alongside instead and you know We'll have a new city We'll have us a city with new vitality right because these areas around the rail You know will be new and they'll be capital flowing in and they'll be you know It'll be useful and in fact it doesn't matter exactly where the rail is Because the rail will attract business to it That's the way it works and I mean I mentioned before the show that it reminds me of the American Railway the American Railroad crossing the planes. They gave the I guess it was the federal government gave a Right a right-of-way of miles five or ten miles on either side To the railroad to incentivize them to take that path and then the railroad would sell that land that create essentially To D so you know there's this we've seen this before and it does work It settled the American West But problem is here. We are in Honolulu with all the troubles and the bureaucracy in the you know the Delays that we experience and there's a lot of obstacles and challenges to developing anything How are we going to develop these businesses? How are we going to have real to do D? We haven't had it yet It's not running parallel. It's you know, it's like everybody's waiting for the for the rail to be finished It's a bad way to plan How do we make this happen bring the capital in have these things developed have? Have progress How do you know if I was running it? I would have a staff In the city that really knows about development it really knows about MBA types young people were coming in and investment bankers those that kind of people can package package Real estate retail a mix use plus affordable housing all the things in packaging then we go out to the top 50 developers in Honolulu and the mainland and in Japan and then any globally also and say you know we have these stations and This is some of our ideas. What do you think that you know, and this is what we think are costs and and to develop these The housing or retail or mix use or you can put in something that will be a kind of a branding thing for a Japanese company or Chinese company or An American company to brand themselves to put in something that would really be a something to highlight Like you know, there'll be people who want who may be in from Silicon Valley who want to put in a server museum Or or a computer museum. He's a problem. Let me I throw a problem at you China town our China town You know just a few blocks away from where we are right now a lot of owners and trusts You know old-fashioned old-fashioned landowners are holding China town At ransom for a better day Their land banking these properties and as a result China town's growth has been severely limited We could have had a modern bustling, you know forward-looking China town decades ago even back to statehood never had it Because nobody wanted to sell the land it would hold on wait for the big appreciation Okay, now there are people who know everybody knows where the rails going they know the pathway So if you're lucky enough to own land on the side good And if he was smart guy, you would have bought that land as soon as you found out where the pathway was going now A lot of those guys are gonna hold that land waiting to make a killing on the spin They have no intention of developing it. They're just waiting for a killing on the spin just like in China town What can we do is there a way to motivate them to either develop or sell to a developer? Can we should we do that? What's the experience on that the experience is? To get them in as partners to share in the revenue stream and then they will put in their property But they see a stream, you know next 10 20 30 years And this is what you're gonna see in terms of a check coming to you every year But it's a risk, but everybody has to take that risk. That's the carrot. What about the stick? Well, I don't say don't answer okay because we're gonna take a break now And I think the stick is such a provocative question that will make you wait until after the break to you You can find out what Ray is gonna tell us about the stick. We'll be right back. We're talking about a new heart for Hawaii Hello, I'm Marianne Sasaki. Welcome to think tech Hawaii where some of the most interesting conversations in Honolulu go on I have a show on Wednesdays from one to two called life in the law where we discuss legal issues Politics governmental topics and a whole host of issues. I hope you'll join me Aloha, how you doing? Welcome to you bought you talk. I'm here guard. Oh the techs are on think tech, Hawaii I'm here with my good old buddy Andrew the security guy. Hey everybody. How you doing a lot? Good to have Andrew here in the house Please join us every Friday from one to one thirty and follow us up on YouTube and remember as we say at the end of every show Aloha, I'm kawi Lucas host of Hawaii is my mainland every Friday here on think tech Hawaii I also have a blog of the same game at kawi Lucas calm where you can see all of my past shows Join me this Friday and every Friday at 3 p.m. Aloha bingo. We're back I told you we'd come back and we came back and guess what we're gonna discuss now We're gonna discuss the stick The stick is how you make landowners on the side of the path of the rail actually develop or sell to developers We got to get it going. How do we do that? Well? I talked about a current which is to share in in the proceeds over over time But you're correct that you know, you know, it's it's a it's a world where a stick is very hard in a democracy because Landowners should be able to develop their land According to you know land use laws and so forth. So I don't have much of a stick in terms of Getting people putting a gun to their head and said, you know, you have to develop a land for the greater good of society Which is the mass people don't respond to that Return where we turn on that was a that's a very difficult thing now in the old days Before, you know citizens rights and so forth. There was a whole category called eminent domain We're the city or higher government agencies. Oh, we got we have to take it over You have to sell it to us at this, you know, we're gonna negotiate but the end you have to sell because We have to create the line which was voted in by the by the rate. This is the land of consensus. That's right That's right. And I remember when I first came here. I was in the Coast Guard We were trying to condemn a piece of land for federal benefit and we went to Herman Lum who was then Oh, yes, it's attorney and we said mr.. United States attorney We'd like to do condemn some land for a federal benefit and he said condemn You know, we don't do that here. We're friendly. This is the aloha state. We never condemn We negotiate we talk we see we can reach agreement consensus whatnot And I think that's still true today. Look at the problems They've had and even getting the pass wave for the rail That's true. No, they haven't really it's challenging. Yeah, yeah, and and but it's even more challenging Coming be eastward from Middle Street All this was kind of taking place on the west side and it disrupted many many Pearl city and white part of our businesses and this is a story that fortunately is not out, but I've talked to many people out there and and They they you know, they've had severe disruption in businesses. We're talking about I imagine my violin teacher Yes, and we have a severe imagine Chinatown imagine kakako imagine, you know, alamona. It is again that last five or six miles is the most you know, I don't know what the challenges and even in the in the engineering area where where You know parts of isn't is part of our 19th century century city where a lot of trash and a reclaim land is Happening out there. I say to them I mean all of them I say if you want to do disruptive things, you know The rail is not just ten billion dollars or twelve billion dollars The rail is going to disrupt everything including a lot of businesses. That's right And they're gonna go out of business and you have to be fair with them You have to compensate them when necessary by inverse condemnation or something like that Well, you pay them off and sorry for the problem including my violin teacher, you know But but the reality is this is going to remake our city is going to change the the location of commerce and Recreation for that matter and we have all got to get used to that and understand we're going to pay a price Well going back to what I said earlier all those businesses along King Street in Baritania While I have you before it went one way. There was a thriving area. It's all gone. It's all gone And and Alamona is it now and then but that's the city that we now live in all roads lead to Alamona for for Christmas and Thanksgiving but But you're absolutely right and but going back to you know talking about a consensus It had has to be a dialogue that has had to begin many decades ago The problem is having a dialogue that began You know whenever it began and then you spend 10 years or 20 years doing that We'll never enjoy it you and me will never enjoy it and I want to enjoy it. So I give you a possibility I want to do a suggestion. Okay, I say look you you know you landowner you you you bought this to spin You're going to hold on to it until it really gets valuable in yourself or somebody else Maybe from Asia or something that I want you to develop it. I want you to develop now I don't care if it's you or your successor. You can't hold on to this and stop our progress You must develop it or get someone and and if you don't do that if this isn't developed within a certain period We are going to condemn it and we're going to buy it from you at you know today's fair value And we're going to sell it like so often the case around the world for somebody who will develop will sell development rights That means you know going back to Condemnation again means we're going to actually take action and we're afraid to do that But I think if we did do that then we'd you know just this just the sound of it We'd get things going right what you'd have to do is say this is the plan and everybody would start developing That's what we should do. I think what do you think well again? Rail transit or any transistors from also operates the best with a vibrant economy and a rising population because as services writers And but you're absolutely right that if it's part of a plan that each station has a theme This is Chinatown food Asian Markets Wow, this is going to be really a tourist destination local residents come It's going to be a blockbuster kind of economic vitality. You're absolutely right. I have another one. I have another one Tax holiday he who develops this land Okay in accordance with our plan that is our theme. We're not taking anything away from you We're not doing an inverse condemnation on you by by rezoning after the fact or anything like that But we're saying that if you do this in accordance with our plan We are going to give you know your project a five-year tax holiday You'll make a fortune and it's not going to cost us that much After that we'll make out fine You know and so the tax holiday way is a way You know to get people on board to get the landowners on board developers on board and investors on board To have them do it not only do it but do it in accordance with the theme that we like that we selected You know at the planning level again, that's a Instead of looking at disincentives we had a look at our whole list of incentives and Why does it wow that this is really great? Why why would I put in money in this project when I can have a tax holiday on this project? And you're correct the more that we can offer as a magnet for to draw the right type of Investor right type of developer it could be a golden opportunity right now, you know I've told the story of stopping a ministry to friends on the mainland or Asian and this is this this is the most strangest story the most bizarre story They've ever heard in their lives where because they look at remember 6768 Neil Blaisdale Had a map of Manhattan and he turned it east west and that's Honolulu This is 6768 already. They were thinking about my strength. You know, this isn't new. This isn't really new and It's a way to revitalize a city to really create new jobs And and get cars out. We're gonna look at a million Maybe a million people 1.2 million within the next 10 years maybe 1.3. We're gonna increase cars Why don't we say no from you to says no There's a lot of people in the world a lot of jurisdictions in the world that say no It's an island. You can't have a million cars on an island You can't have one point some odd cars for a man woman and child on the island No, you know your license to deal in cars is limited to this many like hunting, you know, you can't is hunting isn't it? You you really have to stop now And furthermore as in Singapore when the car is more than say five years old or whatever it is five years old You have to retire in Japan the same thing Yeah, and that way we keep the old cars off the street and we only allow X new cars on the street And there'll be you can think of also distant centers of cars in downtown like in Singapore If your license plate has a odd number You can't come in on a Monday, for example, you have to buy a spurs of Another way Yeah, you take the rail or you pay for a ticket to for the right to a park. So again We are in a scenario where there's a wave of people coming in the morning and the wave people going out and Real it by itself. We're not address that you see what I It's not gonna address that wave of it's what's at the end of the line Yes, that's right And then we have to get people out and that's what I said in my article In Belle South and Atlanta shifting 10,000 people to be on three Rail stops and they go to meetings within the rail stops and live in the rail stops Wow, that kind of ensuring the success of rail and ridership is the larger Hawaii business 250 Decision-making that has to occur also Bangkok seen the rail in Bangkok. It's got you in. Yes Really incredible, but you know it has changed the way things develop it has changed where commerce and the big shopping centers Are all right there a stone stone throw away from rail. That's right. That's okay Somebody has to pay a price for it. Let me add this one thought on a challenge. It's one other thing. Okay You know, we have had we have had TMT TMT is a profound black eye for us and Even now it continues to be a black eye for us. It may be a permanent black eye for us 4.3 billion dollars from next era another black eye from us We have a way of not being able to deal with foreign investment. We don't like it We like it too much in any event. We can't manage it. I mean, it's a real problem going back to captain cook No, we have to find out how to deal with it But for the moment, you know, if you're I make you a banker. I'm making you a banker in Wall Street, Ray Are you going to invest hundreds of millions of billions of dollars around a project that has been controversial for at least 10 years? Where everybody's fighting with everybody else when nobody knows it's really going to be completed when nobody knows of a mandate election It's going to stop at any time. Would you invest a billion dollars in in TOD around? No, it wouldn't would you? Where's the money going to come from in the environment? We have created for our own image our own black eyes around the capital world. I Rest my case Well from the beginning of the sandalwood age in the early 19th century and so forth I keep coming out We have failed really to go out and market ourselves and promoted ourselves and and really make a place that really Makes a business and investors feel comfortable and but going back in history King Kamehameha relied on on his American and English advisors. He adopted the rifle. He had navigation King Kalakawa had electric lights At Yolani Palace before Buckingham Palace in the White House. They were all early adopters of technology Western all kinds of Western culture and We we have not we're part of America. We're part of the globe. We're part of the 21st century So so we have to have a 21st century city in effect and and we just can't Be isolated but rather be a place where people say when you go to Seattle or Tokyo says wow Hawaii That's where the future is that's where the 21st century is happening That's where high-tech is being used and your education system is the best of world and and I would you know invest tomorrow because You have a environment. What do you have a lunch? It's safer. That's what I want people to okay say It's not happening now, but you're correct that that We're we're always on the bottom of the Forbes, you know best places of business and so forth and And I think it hurts people in Kalihi when you think about the trenches if we had rail if we had this train size if we had Mixed use development. It would employ local people. They don't have to go anywhere by car They don't have to go to make that trek on the bus to Waikiki every day. They can have great jobs in Kalihi Paloma okay, we only have a minute left here Ray and That camera over there is yours. Okay, I'd like you to address the address the state address the county anyway What do you want people to do here to implement the idea that you wrote about in the civil beat? we need a talented group in the city to really make investors Comfortable that they are dealing with people who understand development or understand retail who understand condo and apartment development that they can talk the talk of these investors and developers if You do that then they have the sense that we are for real that we are going to Build a rail line with rail stations that will be magnets That will stimulate the economy and create jobs But we have to address the return on investment ROI and that is the first step if we can understand How to create the best kind of package and proposal and go out the bid we would have developers and investment backers from around the globe New York London, Hong Kong Tokyo Amsterdam and La just knocking on the doors to be part of this project the most wonderful project in the world And what they're going to want to see is unanimity around the community or at least leadership and a big following I'm reminded of a documentary last night on PBS about John F. Kennedy when he was he was always like an underdog in His early years and what he did is he would have a big campaign headquarters You know John F. Kennedy running for Congress, whatever it is and then big signs Come here and volunteer to help me and they did they came by the droves They helped they volunteered to help him and it really did help him So I think if we if we see you know if we cure the disconnect between government and people made people have more Confidence in the system Participate in the system instead of making a big controversy about everything all the time We go a full step and if I were down on Wall Street. I would be impressed with that Okay, thank you Ray. Thank you