 What does it take to be a successful engineering project manager? In this episode, I'm going to interview Ann Tomalavich. Ann is an engineer who has spent the last 20 plus years training engineers on how to become great project managers. And she's going to give us an interesting angle on this topic. Ann is going to talk about the difference between what your company wants to see in you as a great project manager versus what your clients want to see. They're not the same, but if you understand both, that is how you can become the best project manager that you can be. Let's do it. All right, now I'd like to welcome our guest onto the Civil Engineering podcast today, Ann Tomalavich. Ann, welcome to the Civil Engineering podcast. Thank you, Anthony. It's my pleasure to be here. I'm really looking forward to talking with you. So Ann, we know that by background you're an engineer and you've spent a lot of time as a recently doing project management training. We're excited that you're going to be doing some training for us at the Engineering Management Institute. Talk a little bit about kind of your career journey and how you got into project management and why you became so interested and passionate about it. Okay, well, I graduated from the University of Delaware and my very first job was with DuPont. You know, if you live in Delaware, you work for DuPont, at least back then. I designed textile wastewater treatment plants and I left there, worked on my masters and then I went to work for EPA for a very short period of time. And then I worked for a company that had a contract to have me take a look at sludge, sewage treatment sludge. And the goal was to try different temperatures, different acid concentrations and see if we could remove heavy metals from that sludge so that they could apply it to farmland, let's say, to cropland. Needless to say, nobody would come back to my lab because I worked there by myself. Then I moved on to consulting engineering and I really liked that because there was a variety of work that I did. Now, I was there for seven years and what I did was I worked as a project engineer on industrial wastewater treatment for all kinds of industry. So I've been to steel mills, textile mills, chemical plants, oil refineries, you name it. I was fascinated by that because I understand how things are made, which I've always thought was really cool. I left there and went with a chemical firm for three years, not to pump, but a different one. I worked there on permitting startup operator training for a couple of wastewater treatment plants at a brand new plant in New Jersey. And then after we got that started up, I became the corporate hazardous waste engineer. But you know what, I really missed consulting. So I went back to that firm that I had been with for seven years, came back as a project manager. Now, when I was at that chemical firm for three years, that was the first time I had the title of project manager, but I pretty much was a project engineer. I didn't have to manage schedule or budget. I just had to kind of get the work done. But when I came back to the consulting firm, I knew that I had really missed consulting. I was still doing industrial wastewater treatment, but now added on the hazardous waste because that was a big thing back then. And at that point, we had about 3,000 employees internationally. And I did have the opportunity to work in Egypt on a project for two months. But this was really the first time that I had to be budget conscious. I had to understand accounts receivable. I had to understand multipliers, getting invoices out, all those things. I also priced proposals, and then I had to live with them. And I was the one, like all project managers in that firm, I was the one that was on the front lines with the client and also with my project team. So I really had to understand what the client wanted and needed and then come back and communicate that very clearly to my project teams. And motivate them to stay on budget and on schedule as well. So I had to bring in my team leadership capabilities and communications, keeping everyone informed. And I have a little story about keeping everyone informed. I had a huge contract to do some soil sampling for a company, and they were under consent order. And our job was to do this sampling, get the soil samples analyzed, and then write a report, send it into Department of Environmental Protection here in Pennsylvania, and then they would review it and we'd take the next step if we needed to in sampling. Well, I did not, I only did this once. I did not read the report before it went out the door. I didn't look at the analytical results. And the first time that I saw them and that my client saw them, my client was sitting right next to me and the DEP chair was sitting across the table from us and he said, do you want to tell me about this 250,000 parts per million result? And I just, I didn't know what to say. And luckily that client didn't say anything in the meeting. He didn't say anything to me. He just said, you know, to the DEP, we'll, you know, we'll address that. And then when we went out into the hallway, I fully expected him to dress me down. And he didn't. But he did say, every now and then, I think it's important for you to look out the window and think about what's important. So that was a big lesson to me about keeping everybody in the loop. Wow, that was interesting. Yeah. One of the things you said there, I just want to go back for a minute because, you know, one of the reasons that we reached out to Ann and we're going to be putting on the project management accelerator PM skills courses, because this transition, Ann, from project engineer to project manager that you referenced a few minutes ago, is one that is, you know, critical in terms of an engineer's career, in terms of engineering companies, you know, firms that have a lot of engineers that need to make this transition. And for our listeners, who are a lot of engineers who probably are going to have to make that transition or they have, and they're still kind of, you know, trying to get their footing, what would you say is kind of the biggest difference? And you went through some of it there, but if there is an engineer out there saying, you know, I'm striving to be a project manager, what would they expect in terms of the difference between a project engineer and a project manager? I think what I see in a lot of companies is that they look, they say, oh, you know, Bob is our best engineer, so we'll make him a project manager. And Bob may or may not have the skills that he needs to be a good project manager. He may also feel very uncomfortable. And what I see is that Bob says, well, I do have to become a project manager if I want to move up in this company, which is unfortunate because it, you know, Bob may become kind of miserable or dissatisfied or, you know, feel unprepared. And you know us engineers, Anthony, we like to be prepared. We think we can do anything and, you know, and that engineer, that really, I'm not saying that a good project manager can't be a good engineer. Don't get me wrong, but I think that sometimes if someone becomes a project manager because, only because he's a very, very good engineer or she, or because they think that they have to become a project manager, that actually puts the company at a lot of risk, I think, because if that person doesn't have the communication skills that they need, if they don't feel comfortable managing conflict, and I'm not talking about, you know, getting out there in the parking lot and, you know, putting your dukes up or anything, I'm talking about delivering bad news to a client, like I didn't with that client that was, you know, at the DEP with me, had I known about that bad news, had I taken the time to understand that, I certainly would have delivered. So it sounds and like really, because I know a lot of civil engineers, you know, engineers in all disciplines, like you said, they do feel like they have to become a manager, a lot of them, just because it's kind of like the way it goes most of the time unless you're staying on a purely technical track. And it does often happen that, you know, when you become really good at engineering, you then go into maybe project management, and if that goes well, then you end up with a couple projects or a couple of people that you end up managing. And so, you know, it sounds like all of the things that you've talked about here so far in terms of invoicing and reviewing reports and being able to give bad news to clients and getting into the meeting with a client and maybe an agency, you know, all of these skills are things that you're not going to be comfortable with until you actually do experience them. And you can't really be expected, any company that expects an engineer to be comfortable with these skills, they're thrown right into management. It's not a good business strategy. It's not a good business move. You're not putting people in a position to succeed, which I assume is one of the reasons that ultimately led you to the project management training that you've done for so many years. To answer your question, I had this burning desire to mentor people about this. And I thought that the best way to do that would be to, when I was given the opportunity to do this project management training, that I, you know, I thought, yeah, this is a great opportunity. Plus, we, you know, like I said, we had three about 3000 employees offices all over the place. And at that time I loved to travel. It's not so much fun getting on a plane anymore, but back then it was and I, you know, I've always liked to travel. So that was part of it. So this was with one of the companies that you worked for, they asked you to do some training for them? Yes, yes. That was before I went out on my own 22 years ago to do, you know, what I'm doing now, which is project management training and consulting. But I was part of an internal training team. And, you know, and plus I wanted our company to continue to do better. You know, we were very good technically and very well respected and we, you know, we were profitable. But the, you know, my cohort of project managers and the folks who were on this project management training team, we knew that the company could be even more profitable. But not only that, some of the folks who were becoming project managers, they didn't get it and they got very frustrated. And I mean, I did too when I came back to this company as a project manager. I really had no idea that my job was to review what we called pre-bills. It was like a pre-invoice and then give them, we were lucky enough to have financial analysts who would help us out with that. But, you know, I had to go through my pre-bills and make sure that, you know, so-and-so wasn't charging to my project. Maybe they charged the wrong number or something like that. But, and then to give them to my financial analysts to make sure that the invoices got out. And I remember the head of the financial analysts in my division came into my office and she said, where are your pre-bills? You've got to do that. And I said to her, I can't believe I'm admitting this. But I said, that's not my job. And she said, yes, it is your project manager. Yes, it is your job. So, you know, I wanted other people to not make the same mistakes that I made. You know, I wanted to get their path to be a little smoother than mine was. And, you know, I put the company at risk too, because I didn't understand this stuff. And so, you know, I've always been kind of like a mentor, sort of person, encourager, teacher. So it was perfect fit for me. That's great. And the rest is history. You've been doing it now for a long time. And a lot of engineers on how to be great project managers. So let's talk a little bit about, you recently gave a talk at an ACC event on project management. I think it was related to the role of a project manager and consulting. Yes. Talk to us a little bit about that and some of the feedback that you got from the audience in that session. Okay. Well, my main objective was to get my audience to kind of see the, you know, my opener remarks had to do with the fact that as engineers, we don't learn this stuff. We don't learn, you know, we may learn how to design bridges, wastewater treatment plants, whatever our expertise happens to be. But we generally don't learn anything about business. We generally don't learn about leadership, things like that. So I, we put two flip charts up in the front of the room, one that said what the firm, in other words, what you principles of engineering firms, because that's what ACC consists of. So what is it that you want in your project managers? And then the other flip chart was what is it that our clients want in our project managers? So I'll just read, I'll just read these real quickly. Sure. So, and these are in no particular order, but what the firm wants is leadership, integrity, vision, communication, organization, technical expertise, sense of urgency. And I love this one from, from one of my clients, one of my long-term clients, he said, I want my project managers to learn how to be a capitalist. I love that. And they also want their PMs to be good with people, to have a good attitude, be a team player and a negotiator. Now, what this group thought their clients wanted in their project managers make me look good. Responsiveness, no surprises. And I gave you that example. Yeah, no surprises. Reliable, technical knowledge, trust, and problem solver. Now, I know I read through these very quickly, but the two, the only two that are common to the two lists are technical expertise, technical knowledge. Everything else, and it's not that they're not the same, but it was the technical knowledge, technical expertise that we, so that the second part of what I did after we made this list was we went through and said, all right, what are the things that we definitely learned in college? So on the, what the firm wants their PMs to do, certainly technical expertise, sense of urgency, and team player. And kind of learned, depending on, you know, what the person's role was in college, leadership and integrity and communication organization. Okay. And there wasn't anything on the what our clients want, other than technical knowledge that we typically learn in college in engineering school. That's interesting. In fact, you know, looking at the list, and we're going to share this list. So if you, the end of the episode, I'll give you the link to the show notes page, and we will post the list there. And also, if you're watching this on YouTube, we'll put a link to the show notes as well. But what if you're listening to this, and you either aspire to be a project manager, or you're a developing project manager, this list that kind of, and has accumulated for just from her audience collected from her audience is basically what, in theory, what your firm or your supervisor wants to see in you as a project manager, and what your client wants to see in you as a project manager. And again, I'll read them quickly, but leadership, integrity, vision, communication, organization, technical expertise, sense of urgency, how to be a capitalist, good with people, attitude, team player, and negotiator, and from the client side, make me look good, responsiveness, no surprises, reliable, technical knowledge, trust, and a problem solver. And I say those again, and because, you know, if you want to become a great project manager, you obviously want to be the great project manager in the eyes of your company and in the eyes of your clients. And so all of these kind of traits and characteristics that we have here will help you to do that. And, you know, that must have made for an interesting conversation there in. Oh, yeah, it was, it definitely was. And something interesting that I was reflecting on while I was, you know, preparing some ideas for our talk today, when I was at the consulting firm and on that project management training team, we invited a client to come in at the beginning of every single one of the training sessions and, you know, several hundred over a few years. Every single time, every single one of the clients said to us, to the project managers, you know, about what they expect, what they like about the project managers that they work with, not just our company, but any consultants. They said, the number one thing, you said, I invite you to the table because you are, you have technical expertise. That's a given. You wouldn't even be invited to the table if you didn't have technical expertise. You said, the number one thing, every, and every client said this, the number one thing is my chemistry with the project manager that you're proposing. It's amazing. It just, yeah, it just. Again, it shows how your ability to relate with people sometimes in engineering is the most important, you know, one of the most important skill sets because, you know, you and I have talked about this before, you know, engineers and project managers don't work alone. Exactly. Yeah. We never work alone. You know, even, I mean, if you think about any one of the NASA projects, you know, there's gigantic teams, but even in some of our smaller projects, you know, we've, we've got to work together with other people and, and the client and our boss, you know, so, yeah, you're always, I mean, you may feel like a team of one sometimes, but you've got to get input from other people and, you know, we're not, we're not an island. And yet, I think for some engineers, that's really what attracts us to engineering is that we, you know, we're very introverted generally. And we, you know, we like to keep our head down. And I know there aren't drawing tables anymore, but, you know, keep our head down and, and do our work. And things that, you know, we like to have kind of like black, and I don't want to say black and white thinking, but, you know, we can write an equation about everything, except when people come into the mix, you don't know what the equation is going to tell you, because there's no equation, you know, right? Yeah, you just, you just never, you never know if you can rely on somebody who may not know what their work ethic is, or what their experience is. So yeah, I do think that that's why in terms of being a successful, let's say engineering leader overall, it's so important that of course you need your technical knowledge. I mean, that was obvious in both when you asked about what your firm is looking for and what your clients looking for and project managers, the technical expertise was the one that showed up on both lists, showed up two times. So that's obvious that you need that component to be a successful engineering leader. But you also need, and which I think is the reason that, you know, Anne and I work together well is because you need the project management skills as well, which Anne has done a lot of work on. You need the people skills, you know, which I've done a lot of coaching and training on, you need to put all those three things together, the technical, the project, the people. And then you can really, in my opinion, have a lot of success in the engineering world, because you're going to be able to deal with different things. Now, you know, it's almost like, you know, a hard and soft side of it. So for example, a lot of stuff that Anne talked about earlier on, in terms of things that might be eye-opening to you as a project manager that you weren't prepared for might be some of the cost estimating, some of the scheduling that you'd have to prepare, the project plan, the invoicing, things of that nature, right? Those are like hard skills that you need to learn in terms of how to prepare an invoice, how to prepare a schedule, right? And then you have on the other side, the soft skills, which Anne always says are hard to learn, but the soft skills are, you know, the communication with people, the going into a meeting and being able to run a meeting effectively, the having that conversation with a client that's very difficult to have, so that, you know, you don't end up giving them bad news when it's too late. And so I think that what's really what we're trying to get out in this conversation is that, you know, you will need some people skills and believe me, you can develop them, because we've helped a lot of engineers develop them. But at the same time, you need those fundamental skill sets of project management, like being able to know how to put together a project plan, being able to do a cost estimation that when you're out there in construction, worked. And it's not you're trying to catch up on costs and things that you missed. It's about it's about kind of a mix of those things. So that you're kind of a, I don't know, well rounded engineer, if you will, Anne. You're absolutely right. Yeah. And so that's something that, you know, we wanted to kind of capture in this conversation. And one of the other things that I wanted to ask you, because in a few minutes here, we're going to, we are going to put in on the civil engineering hot seat. But before we do that, you've worked with a lot of engineering firms and engineering professionals in terms of, you know, becoming project manager and helping them with some of these skills that we're talking about. What would you say is one of the biggest challenges for engineers or, you know, maybe other technical professionals that you might have worked with or that you've seen in terms of making the transition to project manager? Like for example, is there one aspect of project management, like the invoicing or the scheduling that people tend to get stuck on? Is there one surprise or one thing that people are more surprised about in terms of their experience as a project manager? Is there one or a couple of things that jump out that you would just, you know, tell people when they're making the transition to be very aware of? Well, I think it depends on the person's personality and what they're comfortable with. You know, some people really are not very comfortable, let's say, public speaking. And I know this is something that you work on, Anthony, in your engineering management accelerator, say that fast three times. But, you know, if you happen to be the engineer of record for, let's say, a township or a city or something, you have to go to evening meetings and make presentations and be able to speak in non-engineering terms so that, let's say, the board members, the mayor, whoever it happens to be, and the public understands what it is that you're saying, what it is that you're trying to do, how it's going to save them money. So, you know, those kinds of things. Some people are very uncomfortable speaking in public. Others are very, very uncomfortable giving feedback to people that work on their project teams. You know, they may just say, oh, well, you know, Anthony's not doing so well, but I'll just kind of let them slide. Not picking on you, but. Sure. No, no, I understand. Yeah. You have to be flexible. So, you have to basically be flexible in terms of, you know, you have to identify kind of what your needs are in these different skill sets and then, you know, focus on those needs, which I think is another important message, quite frankly, because, you know, which is one of the things we're trying to do with the project management accelerator training that Anne's going to be giving for EMI is we're building an assignments and some case studies to it, because let's be honest, you may need more work on the cost estimating side of project management as opposed to, you know, the project planning side of it. It depends on your experiences. It depends on where you're at. And so if you need help in something, seek help in it, right? So in our course, for example, you'll work more on the assignment for that session than the other one. And I think that's something to keep in mind just in your career and life in general is that, you know, kind of like what Anne said in terms of an equation, like there isn't any way that I can tell you to go and get trained on all these different skill sets as an engineer. There's no blanket recipe for you to be a successful, well-rounded engineer. You kind of have to move and flex in with your personality, with your surroundings, with your atmosphere, with the type of projects that you work on. And I think that's important because I do think that some companies tend to enroll people in the same program. Let's take 40 or 50 of our people and put them through the same program. And that program may be a good program and it may work well, but you just might have to grab onto certain parts of that program more than others. You may need to put more time and energy into one aspect of the program than others. And don't be afraid to really focus on the areas where you feel you either are strong and you want to get stronger or there's a bit of a challenge for you there. So with that, what I want to do here, because I want to really pick Anne's brain a little bit on her own career, I'm going to transition us into the hot seat. We'll be back in just a minute and we'll put Anne on the hot seat for a few last questions. I hope you are enjoying this episode of the Civil Engineering Podcast, which is produced by the Engineering Management Institute. Please be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel here for more podcast episodes and for all of our Engineering Manager ED20 shorts videos that we publish weekly where we interview successful Engineering Managers. Now it's time to jump into our Civil Engineering Hot Seat segment. All right, we're back with Anne Tomalavage. We're going to jump in now and put Anne on the hot seat. Anne, you ready for this? I am. All right. So here we go. Are there any specific rituals that you practice every day? For example, do you have a morning routine or a lunchtime routine, something that you do consistently on a daily basis that has contributed to your success as a professional? I meditate just about every day, not every single day, but I do meditate. There are a couple of apps that I like to use and they really help me to clear my mind and get the day started off right. And one of the things that I've noticed, if I, you know, there are some guided meditations which are very helpful for relaxing and relaxing first thing in the day is really is a very good thing. But if I just do a timed meditation where I'm thinking or whatever, it's interesting because I always get an idea for a proposal that I'm working on or how to present a certain thing. The idea is just flow right in and it's so, so helpful. Interesting. So when you create that space in your mind, something comes into it that maybe didn't have the space to come into it. Is there a specific app that you recall that you could share? Yes. One is Insight Timer and the other one is called Calm, C-A-L-M. And they, you know, they both have guided meditations. I have to admit what I like, the thing that I use most on Calm is they have these sleep stories and it's almost like somebody reading you a story, you know, like when you were a kid, they have different actors, the guy that was in Game of Thrones, Jerome Flynn, you know, there's a couple of them. Yeah. So it's, you know, that's very relaxing and it's a nice way to fall asleep. And, oh, and on, in Calm, there's a 30-day, like how to meditate kind of thing and each day is maybe 10 minutes. The guy who does it is really good. And LeBron James, they just started having, he has, I think, eight or 10 sessions, again, maybe 10, 15 minutes each, about how he trains his mind. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's really interesting. I'm going to have to check that out. And the reason I was asking is because I think in maybe like three of the last five episodes on this hot seat segment, we've had three people say that they meditate in terms of a ritual for them on the civil engineer podcast here and another, one of our last guests, she mentioned the app Wake. So it's another app Wake. So a couple of different apps for us to check out. All right. Next question. And what is one book that you might recommend for engineers or just one book that's been helpful for you and your career that you can share with our listeners? Okay. As a consulting engineer, I, anything by, God, what's his name? David Meister, M-A-I-S-T-E-R. Yes, David Meister. Yeah. He's written true professionalism, managing the professional services firm, et cetera. He's retired now, but he had been a professor at Harvard Business School. And he, he has consulted with, he doesn't, it's not just engineers. He consults with general types of businesses, but primarily professional services, like law firms, accounting firms, et cetera. And to, you know, I, I have this philosophy that the approach to project management, regardless of your career is the same, you know, there's the same mindset. Project management Institute, PMI.org has what they call the guide to the project management body of knowledge, and they have 10 knowledge areas. I won't list all of them, because I'm not sure I'll remember all of them, but they, I, I like, no matter what kind of project I'm about to embark on, I like to address each one of these 10 knowledge areas in my project planning. Okay. So things like scope management, time, cost, human resource, and in other words, the team that you're going to use, communication, stakeholders, you know, who are some of the people who can impact your project positively or negatively, procurement, if that applies to your project, and risk, risk is a really big one, you know, that a lot of us say, well, oh, I've done this 1,000 times before, but were you able to access the site every single time? What if we don't? What if we can't access the site? You know, what if stuff comes in too late? All that, all those kinds of things. So that's great. And all good stuff there. And one other, one author out there with David Meister, I know that there's a popular book, a lot of engineers where you called the trusted advisor by David Meister. That's another big one. And you I know he is retired because I tried to reach out to him to come on the podcast, and he's not really available, but all his stuff is out there and available for you to check out. All right, and two more questions. First one, in your career as an engineer, you've had, I'm sure, several different managers. If you can think back for a minute, and you don't have to name anyone, but if you think of some of your favorite managers or your favorite manager, what made him or her your favorite? What were some of the characteristics of those really good managers that you had in your career? Okay. Probably my favorite was when I was at that consulting firm the first time, he was my project manager for a couple of projects that I worked on. I liked him best because I mean, he was very organized, very good communicator, etc. But during the seven years that I was at this firm the first time, he was the only project manager that ever held a kickoff meeting. Yeah. So I decided that when I became a project manager, I would always hold a kickoff meeting. It's the most important meeting in a project. So that's why. That's great. That's memorable for sure. And kickoff meetings just by the way is one of the things that Anne's going to be covering in the project management accelerator course that we're excited is going to be launching soon. All right, I've got one final question for you, Anne. We call this the civil engineering career elevator advice question. So if you got into an elevator with a civil engineer, no, they're working in their career, they're working their way to wherever they want to go. From your experience, what is one piece of advice if you had about 30 seconds with him or her that you would share with them in terms of career advice? Okay, this is something that another boss said to me years ago, you don't have to know all the answers, you just have to know where to find them. Very interesting advice. You have to know where to find them. Okay. Yeah, it's true. I mean, and I see that a lot actually with younger engineers that are out on a project site and they get asked a question by a client or a contractor. And, you know, they feel kind of ashamed or embarrassed not to have the answer. So they might throw answers out there, which can be very dangerous, especially when you're dealing with construction projects and, you know, the safety of people, of course. So it's a good point. You might not have the answer, but you're sure have the capabilities to find it. And if you can figure out where you'll be able to extract that answer. So once again, and thank you so much for spending some time with us here on the civil engineering podcast. As I mentioned, we launching our project management accelerator PM skills course coming up in March. And we'll be our trainer. She's been conducting these trainings for many years now. And we're really thrilled to be able to, you know, put her content together with the same delivery process we've used for our accelerator courses. We're thrilled. So Ann, thank you so much for spending some time with us. You're welcome. Thanks for asking. I hope you enjoyed this episode of the civil engineering podcast on YouTube produced by the Engineering Management Institute. We're always looking for new ways to help engineers become effective managers and leaders. You can view all of our content on our website at engineeringmanagementinstitute.org and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel here for our weekly videos. Until next time, please continue to engineer your own success.