 Welcome, everyone. It is two o'clock here in Washington, DC, and I want to welcome you all to the latest in the series of our 20th anniversary webinar shows for the 2010 anniversary of public knowledge. I'm Chris Lewis. I'm the president CEO of public knowledge. We really appreciate everyone joining us via the zoom webinar or those of you who are watching with the live stream or perhaps a recorded stream of us on YouTube. We have a wonderful YouTube channel where you can find the entire catalog of not only public knowledge videos over the years, but this specific series of our 20th anniversary public knowledge webinar so please check those out. But for the next hour we're going to be talking about a really fun topic in the history of public knowledge. And we have a really expert panel of public knowledge alums joining us for it as well. The topic is emerging tech through the years at public knowledge. And you know, one of the things I love about working here is that public knowledge, not only does great advocacy work, deep policy analysis work. But when we're at our best, we are thinking ahead and talking about the issues of innovation and new technology in a way that really can shape the debate for the future. Public knowledge always supports the development of innovation. And, but when we talk about innovation, we want to make sure that innovation technology is open and inclusive, especially for independent voices and marginalized communities. And this has been true about the, the development of our emerging technology series emerging technology conferences and topics over time. And so let me introduce our wonderful panel that's joining us. We're going to talk to them in order and then as a group. But first, our oldest PK alum joining us is Michael Weinberg, who is currently the executive director of the Engelberg Center on innovation law and policy and why you law school he is a former vice president of public knowledge. And also with us is Courtney Duffy, who is currently serving as the head of creator policy engagement at Patreon, a wonderful technology company. Courtney served as a, an arts and technology fellow at public knowledge a few years back. And last but not least, we have joining us, Alisa Valentin. Alisa is currently serving as the special advisor to FCC chairman, I see FCC commissioner, he's going to love that I said that CC Commissioner, Jeffrey Starks, where she's been serving the last couple years, but Alisa was our very first communications fellow at public knowledge so welcome one and all. We're glad to have you and I'm going to start off the conversation by talking with Michael, first of all, Michael, you preceded me at public knowledge, you wrote about multiple emerging technology topics. And, and you also developed and co founded one of what became emerging tech DC, but was founded as 3D DC. Can you tell us a bit about how you got the idea to create that conference and what sort of work went involved to thinking about that specific type of emerging technology. Yeah, absolutely. And thank you so much for having me I'll have to get my, my public knowledge Walker and your horn ready for the, for the oldest for the old. Yeah, I mean, so, so a lot of that work came out of this idea that public knowledge, public knowledge is a special place. One of the things that makes PK special is that it is at that intersection of really understanding law, really understanding what policymakers understand and don't understand. And then also being really connected to the public interest into what's happening out in the world. And so, while PK is always good at sort of fighting the current fight. It also has the capacity to anticipate things that are happening or going to happen in the future. And so one of the roles one of the ideas behind that conference was to say, Okay, well what can we do to say to anticipate a potential set of issues that might be relevant in the future. And what can we do to frame that for policymakers and begin to connect people in the community who are involved in that thing with policymakers, excuse me. Because we used to say to people look, you don't want your first meeting with a policymaker to be there's a huge problem and I need to spend the first half hour of this meeting just explaining to you what this technology is. You want to make sure that when there is a problem, you've already had that first, hey, this is what's going on conversation. And so we did the first 3D DC which then was followed actually by an open hardware DC and then back to 3D DC. All of those were designed just familiarizing people in the DC policy world with all of these different emerging technologies, so they can begin to think about them and understand them in context before there was some crisis that talked about them. Great. And so the technology at that time, you know, 3D printing may have been new to folks in Washington, but the technology itself wasn't new. What was so innovative and emerging that you felt like it was important to introduce that specific technology. Yeah, I mean the thing that was happening in 3D printing at that time was that the initial patents were expiring. And so a technology that had been very expensive and business focused was suddenly becoming open and cheap and available to all sorts of people. And so there was a sort of sea change happening with the technology where all of a sudden it was being much more democratized. And so people begin to think, well, what does it mean if you have this little factory in your house or in your office or in your maker space, and what impacts could that have on different kinds of policy. And the sort of first step in that examination is to just say, look, this is what this technology is right now. These are the people who are involved with it. Here's what it can do. Here's what it can't do. And so if you want to be thinking about it, have a nuanced understanding of what that technology really is. So we can have a starting point that makes sense and is grounded in reality, not in sort of fears about what could be or what, you know, what was possible, but actually isn't happening anytime soon. And so I think that really helped people on both on the community side, and on the policymaker side, just begin to understand the technology outside of a crisis, and to really understand a more nuanced set of the context surrounding what's happening. One more, Michael, before we turn to Courtney and then Lisa, you mentioned open hardware DC, which came after the first 3D DC event for folks who may follow public knowledge for other topics but not necessarily these topics. How do you explain the difference and also the interconnection between the 3D printing maker space community and the open hardware community that I know you're passionate about? Yeah, I mean, they're very in some ways they're very closely related right that democratization of 3D printing technology basically happened because as I said those patents expired and an open community of people said, Okay, let's work together to make this technology cheaper and more effective and better and then share openly and coordinate. And so 3D printing world is a really good example of what happens when open technology works. But open technology is much broader than that and it's very much related to the open source software ethos and this idea that people all over the world can collaborate and improve and really make and localize hardware, just as they've done with software. And that that openness really fuels a quality and helps identify all sorts of new applications for either new technology for existing technology that hasn't been brought to specific communities. Fantastic. So Courtney, I want to turn to you next because you had a big task when you came on as an arts fellow with us. And in doing so you picked up the reins from Michael and and also shout out to Martin Griffin who's not here, but was also a big part of working with Michael and I know overlapped with you Courtney. But how did you end up picking up the reins on this conference and this work, tell us how you came introduced to it. Well thanks for having me Chris and Michael and Lisa it's great to be with you both. Yes, indeed Michael and I really were ships passing I think he had just departed PK when I came aboard. And so it was into his considerable shoes that I was stepping to lead 3DDC for in the year that would have been its fifth anniversary, which is a big deal So it was really important to me to kind of build on Michael's original vision, rather than scrap it and start anew. But whereas Michael was an expert when it came to 3D printing a wonk really. I was brand new to it so I sort of charted this crash course for myself where I mean it like if you had ever sneezed in the direction of a 3D printer I was at your doorstep and wanted to hear everything you could possibly tell me, and then ask you who else you could So it was along that journey that I met past panelists and attendees but also, you know folks who ran maker spaces professors artists, you name it and I just remember thinking you know I'm not a member of Congress and I'm not a member of the 3D printing But I found myself really caring about this stuff so it occurred to me that an additional target audience that we could kind of look into and adjust the event to in this next step of its journey was others like me who are generally optimistic towards technology and believe in the free exchange of ideas over the internet so In my two years at the helm, my vision really was to demonstrate this this wide ranging set of applications and implications that this emerging technology sort of offered and so the panels span from 3D printing in the human body. We had 3D print the future of the maker movement in the new Trump administration extreme applications of 3D printing and 3D printing and the arts, which was my bread and butter and of course the the topic of my fellowship so Michael, despite being in the throes of a new role. He was then at Shapeways was so generous with his time and and it really helped me shepherd his event forward without compromising, you know the magic that made it what it was. Great. And, and, and I know you got to you just described you got to meet so many folks we have a hardcore 3D printing following that I hope is watching today and still reads public knowledge is work, but they showed up every year. And we all got to meet them young and old from around the country and especially here in the Washington DC area, folks who could drive and show up really interesting people. For folks who are watching I will encourage you to start to put some of your questions if you have questions for our panelists about the work, both in the past and in the future. We'd love to open it up to you guys as the as the hour goes on so please use the Q&A function. I believe we have the chat disabled but the Q&A function at the bottom of the zoom can be used to write a question and we can select from any of the questions that you write in but but to keep the conversation going Courtney. So 3D DC really grew. You know you brought artists to the table you brought more diverse topics to the table. We also had a very robust Hill Advocacy Day or Hill Day while you were running 3D DC. I think we started that with Michael but it got fairly comprehensive while during your two years. What can you tell us about that experience and what are some of the challenges of bringing people to Washington and talk about new technology. Yes, I learned pretty quickly in my fellowship at PK that it's one thing for me or someone on the government affairs team to sit in a congressional office and make a case for XYZ legislation no matter how important it may be. But it's a whole other ballgame when you have creators or makers themselves in that room telling their authentic stories. So indeed the day before our main 3D DC event. We held an advocacy workshop for members of the 3D printing community and hosted them at the PK office that morning and really focused on arming them with the communication skills that they would need to tell that compelling authentic story, not just in the halls of Congress where we brought them later that afternoon, but also back home in their own, you know constituencies speaking with their own, you know, elected officials. So it was a logistical challenge for sure. It certainly helped immensely that we had the backing of Representative Mark Takano and his then deputy chief of staff, Yuri Beckleman who together ran the congressional maker caucus. You know, I recall vividly to how every person on PK staff really stepped up that day, whether it was to train advocates guide them around the hill, moderate a panel for me Chris I think you did that once or twice for me. So it was one of my favorite examples, I think, of how little old PK can really punch way above its weight class it took all hands on deck, and it's not something I'll soon forget. Yeah, and definitely thank you to Congressman Takano. I believe, if I recall the maker caucus was a combination of Yuri and Martin Griffin's idea. Martin on Ark of Affairs team and we really were able to build some some allies from folks who understood the technology and wanted us to continue to share new technology with with other members of Congress so Courtney you left public knowledge. Oh gosh, I want to say 2016 2017. Yes, 2017. Okay. And so when you moved on. We had to we wanted, and we did keep the 3D printing event going but you know after a few years 3D printing was a bit better known in Washington. Other events had popped up. I think there was a DC maker caucus I think the White House had a maker event as well. And so while we had the first 3D printing event in Washington, we were not alone anymore and so you know, one mission accomplished we help bring awareness of the technology to policymakers in Washington. And so we shifted emerging to emerging tech. The combination of 3D printing yes, our hardcore audience but also three other emerging technologies that were new on the scene, or developing in a way that presented challenges and appropriate questions for the public interest community so we're thinking of artificial intelligence and algorithmic decision making that goes with it. We think of virtual reality which was definitely a fun technology to add and the Internet of Things and with that, we created, or we shifted 3D DC to emerging tech DC. And I believe that's about the point the year after we first did that was when Alyssa joined our team so Alyssa we're going to turn the story to you. You came on as our first communications justice fellow. Which I know I was really excited about because folks don't know Alyssa she really helped the public knowledge team to start to think and incorporate the importance of communities of color into our work in a way that you have to be fair I don't think we had been doing as well as we should have. And it's something we continue to work on today. Alyssa, you did in your writing you did in your advocacy, but you also did it with this event tell us about how you transformed emerging tech DC. Thanks so much for having me here today Chris and thanks to the PK team I know Michelle's and in the background and Meredith Meredith helps out a lot with all these events you guys have been doing a lot of virtual events during the pandemic. But to answer your question, you know just like Courtney said you know I built on the foundation that Michael and Courtney created and borrowed a lot from their list but it was in late 2018 beginning of 2019 and I was having conversations down the hall with Chris about doing some events that were more inclusive because I felt like, you know the general space was not as inclusive as it should be and Chris was like, well, we have emerging tech, that would be the perfect opportunity for you to do this so you know just really also came from when I would attend various meetings in the public interest space or like meetings on the hill at the FCC or you know events that corporations were having I noticed a lot of times that like I was one of two or one of three people were in the room and oftentimes there were conversations that people were having about you know broadband access and adoption algorithmic bias, you know misinformation and disinformation and that relates to communities of color but those voices were not in the room so in late 20 or beginning of 2019, I published a blog on PK's website called hashtag tech policy so white, and I talked about the lack of diversity in a tech policy space and the ways that we can change that one of those ways being through the fellowship program at PK I was hoping that you know I know that other organizations have started to do that and that's great and it's fellowships with meaningful pay right not paying someone $20,000 a year to be a fellow. And also having you know various panels that have people of color represented. And so from there again I went ahead and took the reins of emerging tech called it emerging tech for social change. And we had various panels throughout the day like Chris mentioned, panel related to IOT and cybersecurity, AI and data privacy and communities of color, 3D printing and virtual reality, but we also had an HBCU logo design competition, and we gave that prize to a Howard University communications student. We had a professor that taught at Norfolk State University she now is at Texas Southern University Dr. Morgan Kirby, that came there and talked to us about the importance of recruiting from HBCUs Virginia Lam Abrams was there and sorry she talked about broadband access and adoption and urban communities. And we also had Lindsay Parker, she's the chief technology officer for Washington DC there as well because despite the fact that a lot of folks live and work in DC we don't talk a lot about you know DC policy issues and DC politics so I'm excited to hear from her as well and later we had a great reception at Google shout out to Chanel Hardy, head of civil rights at Google for hosting as they are people were actually able to, you know, see the technology in person and it was a great time those are the before COVID times and I'm excited for us to be able to do this again in person one day. Wonderful, wonderful. And so, you know, you talked about you dropped just a few names of what was, I think, definitely the most diverse, but also one of the most interesting group of panelists, participants, you know, our hardcore 3D DC and tech audience was represented showed up but we had a fantastic crowd at at your event. Tell us a bit about the change you made on the change made before the event. You know, I know you did some interviews in advance. All as a way of centering voices that couldn't always show up and attend to the event. Yeah, so we actually went up to New York and we were at the YouTube studios there in New York and interviewed a lot of amazing people I think Michelle just put the video in the chat. It was just great to, you know, have diverse perspectives, and a lot of times in the tech space we do focus a lot on the doom and bloom which is, you know, rightfully so, but it's also great to see the way that these technologies, you know, can be used to transform such as with, you know, like 3D printing like Courtney said I also didn't know anything about 3D printing before this but being able to see the way that this can be used for like prosthetics for people with disabilities was amazing to see and to be able to see that in person was great as well. Wonderful, wonderful. Yes, please. If you're, if you're on the zoom. There are wonderful links about the history of 3D printing emerging tech years of work that this group and others have done. And also if you're watching, please send us any questions you have, use the Q&A function, and we can select questions from there. Going forward here, but I'll keep the conversation going with this group. Before I open it up to everybody. So, you know, you were there during the heart of the broader emerging tech folks, it wasn't just 3D printing, and you did multi day event, you did recordings at a time, and you got to dive into the technology of artificial technology and she got to talk about how it impacts communities of color. How do you see that that issue evolving over time because it feels like it's very in vogue now, but folks were just really starting to bring that topic to Washington. Yeah, so yeah, that was one of my favorite panels of the day, and you know during that time, you know, specifically related to yeah privacy and you know AI. A lot of times, you know, various panels and events that were taking place in DC and there's a lot of the privacy was taking up all the oxygen I feel like during that time rightfully so. Again, a lot of those conversations didn't specifically focus on communities of color, even if there were people of color present on the panel, I don't think that those questions are being asked as much as they need it to be and so this was kind of my way of censoring voices at the margins, and I do believe that now you know due to you know advocacy from you know organizations like PK incredible work of academics and even you know folks in the media it's now widely understood you know the various harms associated with data practices and AI systems whether that be related to what jobs people can see what you know housing opportunities you can see you know voter suppression think of that sort and I would say a lot of elected officials from, you know, federal, state and even local level are a lot smarter, you know, around these issues and they understand these issues a lot more. And we see that with legislation as being introduced or various hearings that take place or even you know like the banning of facial recognition technology and localities so I think that we have come a long way it's definitely more, you know, mainstream but I do think that you know in order for us to kind of, you know, solve the problem we all have to first understand the problem beyond the same page right come to a consensus in order for us to you know mitigate harm harms with these technologies. Fantastic. So, over time from Michael's early work all the way through the wonderful groups that Lisa was bringing together and organize this. We really enjoyed I know as a staff getting to know the community that would turn out for the event that would advocate on their own behalf in Washington by coming. And, and it was a group that came from different walks of life. So, tell me about the crowd. You know, maybe there's a specific participants that you remember finally. What do you and what do you think people got out of attending the conference. I got a third question. What did you get out of attending and getting to know this audience that we don't interact with every day in Washington. Any of you can answer that yeah. I can jump in and I do want to say before answering your question I just I'm really, it's really exciting to see how this this program at PK runs has evolved in and moved this place where it's sort of really focusing on emerging tech for the purpose of emerging like no technology remains emerging forever. And so it makes sense to think about it as a place to identify what's coming next and public knowledge is not a trade association right it doesn't really have anything invested in in anyone technology. And so it's really well positioned as an organization to say hey, there's this new technology coming. There's some reasons to be interested in it and do some upsides, but also here's some downsides here's some potential problems where there's no reason for PK to kind of hide those things. And so it's a really fantastic opportunity to present those, these new technologies and emerging technologies on terms that really helps you in the community and policymakers think through it. But anyway, to answer your actual question. Right, but we want to center the people and their needs and there's pluses and minuses for for the average tech user so yeah, talk about those people. Yeah, so I mean the people the people were great right so these are people who are generally speaking we're working on we're working in emerging technologies and so for a lot of them. This was a real sense of validation for them they were sort of surprised, they're surprised that people in Washington would care right they'd go to the hill and talk to members of Congress. We did a couple White House meetings, and for them it was really satisfying because they felt like they were being taken seriously, and that people were really interested in what was going on I mean I remember one year for 3d dc. You know, whenever there's there's stuff going on in the hill. You're always competing with other events. And one year 3d dc was competing with both the craft brewers Association annual meeting. And I don't know, it was like the giveaway puppies for free association or something it was maybe the humane society. So there's like, yeah yeah I was like free beer one place and like a bunch of puppies running around another place. I feel really coming and excited about 3d dc, because they wanted to understand these technologies. And so, for the attendees who were from the community. It was a real eye opening experience for them to, to feel like the kinds of things they were working on really were did have the potential to make an impact. And for the policymakers who came, it was their chance to ask questions of people who were knowledgeable and who didn't necessarily have a kind of additional agenda and who were willing to answer especially early in this in the development of the technology, who are really happy to answer questions, kind of as they saw it. Because they, you know they hadn't, they hadn't have talking points they didn't have kind of an agenda they were pushing they were just excited about the technology, and excited to explain all the different ways that it could be used. It's a really worthwhile experience for everyone. I think that's why we saw that the communities grew up around it. And as you sort of shift that into the emerging technology more broadly. It's just that is that is that that system that allows you to bring new technologies in and connect them with everyone and give everyone a chance to just sort of get to know each other in a in an environment where questions are really welcome. They're really willing to explain what they see coming in the future without necessarily knowing all of the policy implications of those visions. Yes, for sure I think at a high level. There was absolutely this sense of camaraderie that 3D DC gave its participants a feeling of, yes you can reach out to a legislator and sit down and share your story about the implications of certain tech policies or technologies on your work and your craft and your community. And jump ahead to what I learned that that was something I was learning right alongside those members the 3D printing community, who we were hosting. And, you know, specifically, I, I always think about this brother sister duo Chris I'm sure you remember them well their names were Becky and john button, and they were maybe 13 and nine. They were in a 3D printing and they'd attended events in the past and so on. And in getting to know them I realized that they really had something compelling to say so I put them on panels. Like why not, like if we are going to talk about 3D printing and steam education. I think Chris you might have moderated that one was my yeah yeah like why not hear from a student or two, you know so it was just being able to kind of insert this really valuable and diverse perspectives in getting them all in the same room and you hear how the conversation is elevated as a result. And so for Becky and john, you know for them I think, and hope that they got out of the event in understanding that their points of view matter and can be viewed by powerful adults as legitimate and impactful. Yeah, the buttons. It was so cool to see, you know, in their own just words and their own emotions, you know what it's like to discover and that's what they were doing by going to their makerspace that they had access to in their community was really cool. Alyssa, any thoughts on on the people that showed up. Yeah, you know I think PK always has a good job of bringing out, you know, great crowd because you all are a well respected, you know, tech policy advocacy organization but you know having the event on the hill was great, you know for us to be able to even interact with others who may find it difficult to go to an event that's you know in Dupont Circle or whatever the case may be so I know I was able to meet a lot of great hill staffers that day. And it was also really cool to see after Lindsay Parker the DC CTO spoke the amount of people that were outside waiting to talk to her afterwards right like that's just not someone that we would typically include in these conversations for whatever they did about DC despite living in DC. And so that was it was really cool to see that and also it was great to see even the, you know, amount of people that were talking to Dr. Morgan Kirby after she was talking about the importance of recruiting from HBCU so seeing that it kind of like, you know validated my thinking about the importance of like bringing those people into the conversation so it was great. Yeah, the first impression that I had of 3D DC the first time I went to it I think it was the second one that you ran Michael, or the second one after open hardware and and I'll never forget you know we did the traditional panels we did the traditional reception kind of post work reception. If you've never been to a 3D DC or emerging tech event, it's like a little science where we can come up and touch the technology, which is really fun when you're talking about virtual reality or talking about 3D printed objects. I'll never forget. I didn't know he was a member of Congress but he there's a member of Congress who used to be a science teacher and he was walking past didn't know the event was going on, but just scrolled in because he said oh, I always wanted one of these devices in in my office Fantastic, we're so glad you came and, and that was the great thing about being on Capitol Hill, the congressional staff but even members of Congress would stop by because it was fun, and it was interesting and they could learn about the technology so very very cool. Chris I think that tact having that tactile dimension was really valuable and I remember meeting with an a professor of archaeology who actually scanned fossils and would make files out of them that you could print and I just like think of the experience that his students have where they're able to have that tactile dimension to the learning experience. So not to mention the fact that the professor could then share the files with other academic institutions and democratize access to this, which is often inaccessible to many so he really represented the tip of the iceberg. Absolutely. Yeah. Great educational opportunities there, the museum community, always an active participant in our, especially the 3d printing part of emerging tech events. Let me ask Michael you a question, because there was a controversy. It was a couple years in to the 3d printing discussion. And it was probably the time we got most involved with legislation because of an emerging tech or 3d print event and that was around 3d printed guns. So let's just talk about a head on. Where did that come from. And what became of public knowledge is affiliation to gun issues, not something we usually talk about. No, it definitely was not something that I ever thought I would do any professional connection with. You know, I think it was an issue that came out and depending on who you talk to. It was either it was it was some combination of concern that people could be making manufacturing guns at home. And this idea at the moment with you know at that moment where 3d printing was getting a lot of attention that this would be a way that somebody could download files from the internet and then print out a gun and you know go do horrible things with it. And so there was sort of that concern. And then that concern was also a timing standpoint was matching a moment where members of Congress were looking to renew existing legislation about undetectable firearms, which itself had actually grown out of as far as anyone could tell me had grown out of that Clint Eastwood, John Malkovich movie in the line of fire where he like smuggled in a plastic gun essentially. And so they're looking I think it was it was a little bit of a kind of you know the meeting of these two trends to try and push this legislation forward. And at the time I mean public knowledge as an organization has no position on control. It's not what we do. And so we we sat down with the members of Congress and their staff were pushing it and we said, look, you know, we don't, we don't do we don't have a dog in the larger fight, but you should really think about how you're crafting this legislation. And how much you want to single out, not just 3d printing but any technology for this bill because you should know, because we've, you know, we as an organization have now been working with the maker community and with the open source hardware community. There's actually, there's a lot of technologies that you can use to manufacture products at home. And a lot of technology you could use to make a plastic firearm potentially at home. So what we really did was was work to educate those members and their staff and to say, if your concern is an undetectable firearm really focused the bill language on the undetectability, and you really shouldn't care about how the, how the weapon was made so much as you're because the thing that you're worried about right now is that it's undetectable. And so if you set up these kind of technology specific triggers. First of all, from we had a concern that it was kind of unnecessarily single out one technology. But I think the other probably more important problem is if you if you define the problem in a technology specific way. If someone comes along and reproduces a way to create undetectable firearms, without using a 3d printer, you've missed, you've missed the problem, you're trying to push back on. And so I think they were open to that conversation and ultimately because we had not just sort of in organizing them but because as an organization we had, we'd been talking to them and we understood some of the nuances. We ultimately were able to convince the policymakers to members of Congress, sort of pull that 3d printing out and instead focus on the primary part of the bill. And so I think it was a it was a win from the standpoint of and it validated the idea that as an organization, especially for technology that was really emerging, public knowledge is well positioned to stand that technology and to work as an advocate and a broker in some ways between the emerging community and policymakers with it with the knowledge that that technology is probably going to graduate out of the world of pk right I mean, there there is no reason that public knowledge, you know, needs to continue to be the only representative of any of the technologies in the emerging tech for social change portfolio or anything like that. There's kind of a moment in that technologies rise that it's really important for a public interest organization to be able to say, we have familiarity with it, but that's not the same as saying, we are now going to represent this one technology or advocate even for or against this one technology for its entire life cycle. I mean that's not the role of pk. Lisa Courtney, I'm trying to remember were there any pieces of legislation you felt like we're really connected to the emerging tech events while you were running them. There wasn't anything that specific during 2016 and 2017. The big thing for us was that most, if not all of our advocates had not done this before so they weren't part of the earlier groups in earlier years. So, the way we sort of approaches these are skills that they can replicate at the local level. So helping them hone in on what their story is and thinking through how you maybe tweak your story a little bit depending on whose office you're sitting in and researching ahead of time. The point is that this member really cares about and what is what are the demographics of their constituency that sort of thing, whether it's putting it in terms of, you know the conversation in terms of jobs created or, you know really you name it so it was a really interesting kind of developmental skills based initiative I think, at least in 2016 and 2017. At least I know you already mentioned how the privacy debate was really ramping up in Washington when you ran 3d or excuse me emerging tech DC or emerging tech for social change. How do you view where the conversation around. The decision making and AI is going these days. Do you get to deal with that in your current job or. So, I'm mostly focused on you know broadband access and adoption as well as prison phone rates and my current job. I would say, you know, just like kind of holistically that it's, it's, it's great to see but I guess like unfortunately it took, you know, a pandemic and you know the murder of George Floyd for us to, you know, well people as a whole and majority are focused on issues of, you know, equity injustice, right. But I think that, you know, some of the things I didn't even think necessarily were possible, like in 2019, such as like the emergency broadband benefit fact that people can get a $50 discount on broadband. I didn't, I did not see that in 2019 so seeing that people are on board and there are you know bipartisan efforts to make sure that people have access to broadband you know that's great to see but I think that we all have to be like committed to long term efforts of equity injustice and not just when it's trendy so I do think that there are efforts were were making our way I think last year definitely accelerate these efforts. So I have a question for you. Oh, sorry. No, please. What can I answer? I have a question for you and probably a little bit Lisa as well, is that, you know, I mean, there, we think about emerging tech for social change. There's plenty of places in Washington on the internet, wherever, where you can kind of get exposed to emerging technology for the sake of exposing yourself to emerging technology. But as a public interest organization, one of PK strength and abilities is to be able to link these ideas of emerging technologies that have so much potential and potential downsides with the importance of social change and social good. And I'm sure, you know, probably Chris as a thinking about it in the context of PK more broadly, at least probably in your specific experience of organizing the event. How have you found, how do you think about the process of tying those two things together of tying not just, you know, whiz bang stuff for the purpose of talking about whiz bang stuff, but really trying to tie it to a more substantive agenda and a more socially productive agenda. First of all, we should call it whiz bang stuff. It's always bad. No, at least I'm curious what you would say because I'm very interested in the idea of making, you know, we tried to make the technology understandable and relatable as part of the driving force of the original event. But I think we're at our strongest when we can also connect its importance to folks everyday lives and that can be positive that can be negative. And so, you know, it's very popular in Washington these days to talk about how every kind of policy is technology policy. So, because technology is infused into so many different parts of our lives and so you know that can be cliche but but people say it because the adoption rate of new technologies, including the four that we focused on in emerging tech really is penetrated. Many, many communities, it's not everywhere. And so it really allows for a broader conversation where folks who may not have been open hardware geeks or makerspace members, you know, are now talking about these technologies because they're using them. And they may not even know that those terms, you know, hacking and makerspace and internet of things, but they have internet of things devices in their home, you know, they wear them on their body. And so, so the more that we can connect how people are actually living with them and using them, I think, and, and make that connection both ways for folks outside Washington and for folks inside Washington and be that bridge. I think that's where we can have the greatest impact. At least I don't know how do you answer that question. I would say, you know, even like connecting these, you know, emerging or emergent technologies to, you know, how it impacts, you know, health outcomes, you know, how they can, you know, impact economic opportunity. That's sort of a thing I feel like that's truly important. Again, I just go back to the panelists that we had that had the prosthetics that that was that was being used for like a small child. I just had never seen something like that and to know that that was made from a 3D printer was amazing. So yeah. Great question. Great question. Okay, I'm going to challenge each one of you now to share, you know, we talked about how we have the science fair type of that and I think every 3D DC or emerging tech event had that portion of it. What was the coolest, the most interesting use of one of the emerging technology, technology topics that you hadn't seen before at our event or that you hadn't gotten to see or touch up close, which one really was unforgettable to you. Anyone. I think I already answered I keep talking about the prosthetics. You did say that. Yeah. So maybe Courtney and Michael. Yeah, the prosthetics was up there for me too. We ended up inviting this designer named Francis Batanti who had designed this famous 3D printed dress for Dita Vontis that she wore on a red carpet. And he ended up really leaning into 3D printing design and created back braces for people with scoliosis and that were kind of fashionable or at least, you know, devices that the folks who use the device would feel was more conducive to their daily lives. So he really had this kind of person first approach to design and marrying the arts side of it, which was of course right at my alley with the technology itself. I just think it he struck me as one of those people like no one else really thinks like him. You know, so it was just really wonderful. I think we had him both years. I've been following his work since and he's just doing really wonderful things. So his work in that space, I would say was a highlight for me. Yeah, I mean, there's like a million things about it. Two things that I that are worth mentioning. One is we had a professor named Jordan Miller is now at rice. He was just bio printing. And so what he was showing off and this is, you know, Jordan, if you're watching this, I'm sorry, but basically, you know, it is it is if you are a science person. It is pretty easy to grow in a lab, a super thin layer of human skin and human tissue. If you're a thicker, you have this problem where you can't get blood, which is all the nutrients and oxygen to the cells that are in the middle layer of your strip of tissue. And so this is what this is what blood vessels are for. And so he was using a modified 3d printer to build these really complex vasculatures out of sugar, where it looked like a kind of a web. So he could print this the vasculature out of sugar and put it in an auger where all the cells would grow around the vasculature, and then he could pull it out and like clear out the 3d printed bits. And it was then the voids for the blood vessels so then you could pump blood through these these like much thicker pieces of synthetic human tissue and keep them alive and it was just like every step of that from, you know, modifying a 3d printer to be able to print sugar, which you could then also use it to print like cake toppers and all sorts of things because you could just print crystal, like these like glass looking crystal things. But then like thinking about really addressing these complex problems with the technology that basically the reason he could do it is because the technology had become cheap enough that when he if he broke the first couple it wasn't it wouldn't like blow his budget for the whole year. And that was that was one that I think is was really interesting and really changed the breath of how I thought about the technology. The other one was the team from the Smithsonian right and they were doing this incredible work of 3d scanning things and then at the time you know printing them. Also they've done they've been real leaders in open access, which is another you know which is you think about the kind of tree of issues that come out of these emerging technologies that you know it's like a whole world of PK stuff. But they've been real leaders on open access on making those files available to people and making letting you know you can 3d print your own version at home you can explore them and 3d viewers and just make them all much more accessible I remember at one time. They were showing me they had 3d scanned a mummy, you know, in like a cat scan machine or something like giant thing. And there was still wrapped up in the mummy. There was like a necklace and a pendant that had been wrapped up in the mummy for whatever 3000 years, and they were able to extract the geometry of the necklace of the pendant and 3d prints it. And so this thing that had never and then put it like make it totally available. And it's like this thing that had existed and continues to exist but had not been seen by people for thousands of years was suddenly like very tactile and very there. Thanks to the work that they were doing and that was another example of just taking the technology and applying it in directions that I certainly would not have not have occurred to me, but they're really fantastic and that really had a broader application. One of the great ones I will never forget the sugar vascular system as well. I was going to mention the, the combination of two of our emerging technologies and the potential for them and it'd be interesting to follow up with one of our participants but folks, we had a panelist and an exhibition member that did pull dual duty from historic Jamestown, Virginia. They were scanning and 3d printing artifacts, like Courtney described, but I'll never forget, you know, because we had the virtual reality folks there and, and the digital imaging that is consistent between the two technologies. I was talking about in the future how they'd love to not just scan artifacts, but, but to build scans of what Jamestown was like back at the time of the founding of Jamestown, you know, the founding of the colonists there, so that you could then transport those into virtual reality designs. And again, just another way of broadening the educational and historical documenting possibilities of the technology. I don't know if they ever got there, but it was the sort of thing that they were imagining doing with the technology so fantastic, a great participant. I think that might have been Courtney second year that she was there. Yeah. I should say that that's one thing that we've actually seen, you know, nothing good come to covert but one thing that has happened is as these s3 scanning has been used in more and more institutions, and there's been more and more interest in creating virtual spaces to get together. We have seen an acceleration in those 3D artifacts those 3D environments, being like that dream basically coming true, and making it easier for people to experience those spaces, whether it's in virtual reality wearing goggles and everything, or just in our browser, and be able to see the open off artifacts or the buildings or whatever it is, but see them in context in historical context, the way that you can experience it, you know, kind of firsthand, which is really amazing and I think that that flows from public knowledge issues right this like 3D scanning part of it, and the open access part of it and using you know using the technology to bring more information to more people. Right. I also want to shout out the the VR lab folks and probably getting the name wrong but from up in the Boston area, who were trying to and did create a public access virtual reality studio and the way that we had public access television in the past. So that, you know, you could lower the barrier of entry to create your own community TV show. It doesn't matter you didn't need to be rich, you could just use the community resource they were doing the same thing for virtual reality so very cool to make sure that all parts of the community got to participate and create virtual media. Fantastic work. Well, we're almost out of time folks. I could nerd out on this all day long. You guys know that about me I, I love these topics I really appreciate the three of you coming back to help us look backward. And each of you, please share for our audience, what you know remind them I gave your titles but tell them what you're actually doing and where they can follow you online. Let's start with Alyssa and then go on our first order. Yeah. I'm the special advisor to FCC Commissioner Jeffrey starts today actually marks my two years of working in his office. But you can follow me online at Alyssa valentine everywhere linked in Twitter, everything, but I again work on broadband access and adoption issues and I am kind of our event planner by accident in our office and so I've organized the first agency presidents roundtables future work events Latinx digital divide black mental health also helped him get started with his early career staff diversity initiative so there's definitely a line from my work at PK to the work I'm doing Commissioner starts office but as always it's great to be with the PK family, great to meet Courtney and Michael haven't met you all before and great to see you again Chris. Yeah, well we love that using those event skills Courtney. Sure. So I am at a company called Patreon I'm on their policy team. Patreon's a creator founded membership platform and really a pioneer of the creative economy. So we're getting creators paid in short creators on Patreon earned a billion dollars last year alone and right now where they're getting like 100 million on a monthly basis which is feels like so far away from where things were when I was running in DC this idea that creators are finally valued for the value that they bring is really a wonderful time to be at a place like Patreon so we've taken sort of an unorthodox approach to policy development that reflects. You know the fact that it's 2021 and creators are rightfully and finally in the driver's seat so that informs what we do every day. Chris I really appreciate the chance to be on a panel with Alisa and Michael and echo Alisa's thanks for the whole PK team. My handle on Twitter is at sea Duffy 90 Michael 30 seconds. Engelberg Center on innovation law and policy NYU it's we do it was doesn't attend we do law stuff for innovation law and policy. Come on up where New York I will say if I only have 10 seconds left, we are hiring fellows who were it's not fellowship is designed to complement your full time job. So check that out and we're also hiring a program manager full time job so this PK crowd should fit in for both of those things so come on down my Twitter is M Weinberg 2D because unlike 3D printing Twitter is a 2D medium. It's so good to see all of you. The hour is wrapping up we got to close it out but we do want to remind folks that you can check out the series online on our YouTube channel so please subscribe to the public knowledge YouTube channel. Check out all of our historical videos they're fantastic stuff you can find young Michael Weinberg and some of those from like 10 years ago. Sorry, Michael. Michael Weinberg with hair is on those videos. And coming up we have more to do in our 20th anniversary. We have our annual IP three awards, please check it out. Come participate help us celebrate wonderful people that we're honoring at the IP three awards in September, and we also have still open our nominations for our 20 leaders in technology, emerging that we'll be doing towards the end of the year so a lot of great 20th anniversary stuff still to come. Thank you all for joining us today and we'll