 Welcome to Kwak Tuk, I'm Crystal here. So on sensitive women's issues or sensitive gender issues, can't get much more sensitive than today's topic. We're talking about transgenderism and because it's become such a huge political issue out there, we need to talk about this. And there's a supporting film that's just made in Tonga that has all these issues unraveled. We need to kind of engage in this conversation to talk about how we can understand more and be a little more respectful and figure out how we can do things to support their campaign. And just to understand people as people. So on that note, I'm going to introduce two people, guess who are part of the production of Ladies in Waitings, which is a film in Tonga. Now let me introduce my two guests. My first one is the co-producer and co-director of Ladies in Waitings, Joe Wilson. Joe Wilson, welcome. Thank you very much, Crystal. It's great to be here. Thank you, Joe. Tell us a quick something about yourself that we need to know. Well, I'm from small town America for a long time in northwestern Pennsylvania, a small town called Oil City, Pennsylvania. Oil City. Don't get it. Oil City. Okay. Yeah. And I got into filmmaking just by chance. So I was living and working in Washington D.C. for 20 years, focusing on human rights advocacy and grant making, et cetera, when an issue of bullying arose in the small town that I come from. And my partner, Dean Hamer, and I were drawn into that story and decided the best way that we could help is to help tell that story so people could come to understand this on a personal level and think about how we work for change in the context of small town America. Yeah. As much as a small town, I think, our other guest here I'm going to introduce to you is, you know, bullying is not a foreign subject, I'm sure, growing up in Tonga, a very, I would say, masculine place. If you beg to differ, I would love to hear. Let's introduce the star of Ladies in Waiting, who is an advocate, actually the co-founder of the Pacific, what is it called? Sorry, Pacific. Sexual and gender diversity. Sorry. Jolie, Joel, Jolene, Mattael, welcome. Thank you very much, Crystal, and thank you for having us. Thank you. I mentioned bullying. Actually, Joe mentioned bullying. You want to start from there and talk about your position and your experience growing up in Tonga as transgendered? Well, bullying in Tonga was something that was never mentioned, you know, and as you grow up, they thought in the culture that I grew up in, I think they thought that bullying was just something that is used to teach your children how to behave, you know, and sometimes they don't realize that it actually ruins someone's life, you know. Maybe you can teach and teach your children to behave properly, you know, like my grandmother will always teach me how to sit on the table, how to eat properly, how to talk when you're supposed to be talking and all those things, you know, typical English way of doing things. But when you go out of your comfort zone from your home to school and your other relatives and because of your gender, that's when the other bullying, you know, that nobody noticed. They all think that it's a good thing, like when my brother had to force me to speak in a man's voice and act like a man and all that. That was the bullying that hurts me personally. From people from loved ones? Yes. And they didn't realize that, that it was actually ruining my life at the same time. What age do you think that your family, I don't want to say officially, but when did they really kind of acknowledge that your identity is what you are and how they had to kind of approach it from a different way and accept you for who you are? I think it came in a later year, but when I grew up, I was the way I am. Because on my first birthday, I had a kink and dress and, you know, corsage and my hair was in ringlets and all that, you know. And everybody knew that there was something different about me, you know, even my grandmother who raised me. But until I grew up a bit older, when I started wearing a dress, you know, when I was 14 years old, to church, that's when everything started banging on me. That's quite bold of you yet, 14 to do that. Especially to a Catholic church. Ah. I was more or less the star of the day. I'm sure, in so many ways. I mean, how did the priest react? He's a small town, right? I mean, relatively small community. Well, he couldn't do anything. He had to continue preaching. But that was the actual talk of the town that day. But I was taking my grandmother to where she always sits at the church. And then I just sit next to her and nobody said anything. But of course, after, you know, we're like... That's the problem all over the world. Now, to take it onto a bigger cultural context, do you think these issues are similar in different places? I mean, what are the similarities and why your film actually is applicable to a lot of other places who are experiencing the same kind of issues? I think so. I mean, just briefly what the film is about is what it is like to be transgender or any kind of gender or sexual minority in a community anywhere, really. But through Jolene's experience, who was based on her pioneering efforts to raise visibility, just based on who she is, she was one of the co-founders of the Tongan Ladies' Association, which is a community group that came together to provide support to young people who were being kicked out of their homes, bullied and abused by family and other people in society. So the film really follows a year in the life of Jolene and several other ladies in the community there just to show what it's like and ultimately something really important happened during the year that we were filming that it took their advocacy work to a whole other level. What happened? Well, it started in 1992, but the thought of starting the association started from 1987 when our first AIDS person came to Tonga, was brought by the family to die in Tonga. And then after that, just because that person was a gay or trans person, then they started calling us names. Instead of calling out our proper names, they started calling us AIDS, you know, you walk down the road and everybody will just turn around and say, hey, AIDS, you know. And that's how everything started. So when we formed the association, it was to not only just to challenge the people, but to actually taught the HIV awareness to all our community, our trans, our LGBT community, and of course to educate the people that we are not the cause of this disease. We had to fight for the rights of our trans community that were at the forefront of doing the work. So something in you kind of just motivated you to have to do something about this? Yes. I was always a fighter, even though I had the abuse and the stigma and discrimination when I was a kid, but I was always standing up to fight, fight back. I was not much of a swearing person, you know, someone would say the F word and all those things back, you know. I don't do that. I fight. I get up and fight, you know. And I'm talking about fist fight. I'm glad you clarified that. I thought you were going to say, I'm going to fight with my words. I don't waste time talking about words, you know, then, okay, get over here. This is really a common story that, you know, communities everywhere that are under attack, LGBT communities in particular in the US, Tonga, wherever, have had to rally together to protect themselves, to advocate for themselves, to provide services in cases when, you know, in the 80s and 90s, when HIV and AIDS was ravaging our communities, hospitals, health care providers weren't treating us, et cetera. So the Tonga Ladies Association is a great example of how do we rally to support and protect our own community. And then, as Jolene was talking about, eventually, how are we going to advocate for ourselves? Because we need to address protections, rights, access to education, all of these things that everybody else takes for granted. It seems like you're on a very strong path because you got the support from the royalty, right? Can you want to talk a little bit about how even your first premier was for the royal family? So Jolene is probably too modest and humble to say. Yeah, please. Sharon. Yes. One of the reasons she's such an important pioneer in this work in Tonga is because she grew up in a relatively prominent family in Tonga. Her father was a parliamentary and her mother was a very loved and respected musician. The singer in you and the political activist in you was already there. So she grew up in quite an amazing environment. Her family was friends with the royal family and close friends with Queen Salote, one of the most beloved figures in Tonga. We have a photo, I believe, with you and the, tell me who that is. That's the Princess Royal in the Princess Region of Tonga. Her name is Princess Royal. And this was at the premiere of your film? That was at the premiere of a film in Tonga at the International Tanua Hotel. But that's interesting. So you have the support of the royal family, obviously, because of your connections. But still, it's not something light to support an issue like this on behalf of the government. And yet, you have all this adversity with the religious movement within your culture. So how do you balance that? I mean, I'm sure you have your respect for the church and yet you have the challenge of them going against who you are. Well, instead of, you know, as I said, I was a fighter, but I was, you know, I changed my way of fighting now. You know, as the year goes by, we intend to learn other things from just not just by talking on Facebook and all those things. We decided to change our method of doing things to bring in our oppositions to sit down on the same table and start talking. And when we say start talking, we use the methodology, the talanua methodology. And the tala means telling, and no means someone's death who would sit there and listen, you know? So using the talanua methodology is like, it's a more peaceful way of doing things, you know? Instead of rallying banners. Yes, rallying posters. Rallying posters, you know, and shouting and all that, and fistfights. But this is really interesting, would you call this a specific way of approaching? Because indigenous theory, you know, a lot of times, they're advocating, you know, peace, advocating through peace and healing processes, which for the Western kind of way of doing it is just kind of going out there and fighting, very binary. And so is that, because when I first met you at the HIF, you said, I want to do this for my people, and it was interesting that you wanted to focus on that first and why that differentiates from a different approach. It was more, I think it was a more peaceful way of doing it, not only that, but it gave us a piece of space, you know, and at the same time, at the end of the day, you don't get tired, you don't get frustrated out of, you know, after talking to them in a consultation for eight hours right throughout the day, you know? Of course there'll be arguments, but at the same time, at the end of the day, there's something that's been solved on the table, right there and then, you know, and not only that, but even if you don't disagree, if you still disagree with, you know, both parties, parties will both disagree, but we shake hands afterwards and we say good greetings to you, you know? And it makes you feel good, feel proud that you're able to bring your opposition to face to face. And you know, with that note on peace, I would like to maybe take this opportunity to show the trailer because we've been talking it up and it's like, what is this about? Why don't we go and watch the trailer and we'll come back and we'll continue and I'd love to hear more about Joe and the filmmaking process of entering this world and how you were included or, you know, how this family all came to be. So let's watch the trailer of Ladies and Waiters. Tonga is the last remaining Kingdom in the Pacific and we're very proud of who we are. Joe in Matale is a man, even if he changed the way he dressed, even if he changed the way he speaks. They shouldn't be arrested because it's illegal here in Tonga. One of my eldest brothers put a rope on my neck and pulled it to try and get me to speak in a man's voice. It got to the point that I almost took my life away. My brother told me, how many year now you were joining the Virgin? How many year now you're joining together with the Tonga Ladies Association? You should change now. We're known as chefs, decorators, do the dirty errands, clean up the house, help the mothers. And they don't know that it's her, right? Because of the feeling like I'm a lady, I had to stand and tell the people who am I? I will never bend my life to anyone's policy. I will be somebody. Wow, you have to see this film. Ladies and Waitings in Tonga, starring our guest today, Joey and our co-producer and director, Joe Wilson here. Thank you again for joining us on Quok Talk. Now we're talking about transgender and the challenges of it in a place like Tonga and how it's relevant to the world. In the film, you approach so many sensitive issues. The concept of how religion has played its role in kind of suppressing and really making it an ugly issue. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and how that's come? Because, traditionally, this gender issue wasn't even an issue, was it? Well, it's often said that in the Pacific there has been a more welcoming and accepting, you know, cultural approach to these issues. But as we see in more modern times now, there are many different forces that are at play. People who use LGBT people and other marginalized communities as political wedges. What has been happening in Tonga as elsewhere and what happened during the year of our filming was those who are using religion, evangelical, fundamentalist types, particularly televangelists who use that platform to preach against certain people in the community, in Tonga, this televangelist, Pastor Barry Talcolo, by the Trinity Broadcasting Network, which is an international televangelism conglomerate based in California. He was targeting and essentially harassing and bullying transgender people in Tonga on the air and creating a real air of terror, I would have to say. How did that work during the filming process? I mean, he knew your position on this issue. So why this was essential during the year we were filming is as Jolene and the Tonga Ladies Association for years had an annual event called the Miss Galaxy Pageant, which is a big community event that raised money for their work and also served as a way to entertain the community but also to advocate and educate people. But during the year that we were filming this right-wing religious agitation was getting so extreme that Joey and her colleagues decided to cancel the annual Miss Galaxy Pageant and hold a national consultation on these issues. And it really, I think, changed the dynamic. And you covered that in the film? Yes. Okay. Right. Joey, I wanted to ask you as a filmmaker, going into a culture that's not your own and in a very close-knit community, how did that affect, I mean, how did you work together or how did the community embrace Joe and Dean? Do you want to share anything? How do you get into, because it's a very personal, lots of issues they have to trust you to be able to tell their stories. Well, we were introduced to Jolene and her colleagues by a close mutual friend of ours, Kumuhina Le Mwantawangkulu, who we made a film about here in Hawaii. And I think it was initially that introduction, which created opportunities for us to get to know each other. And then, for Dean and I, our style is we're just two people with cameras that try to gain that kind of trust that allows the people who are inviting us into their lives and their homes to tell their stories to just allow us to be there and to capture their real lives in real time. And your friends and family were comfortable doing that with the cameras in your faces? I think they were. Well, at first, but especially when we're dealing with the church leaders, one of them would say, well, I got them off guard. They weren't sure what it was all about and all that. But then it did really... But because of the relationship that I have with some of these church leaders, it made things a lot easier. And I just had to explain to them exactly what the document is all about. And then I lead the rest for Joe and Dean to do the interview. And I was never there. I was never there during all those interviews with the church leaders. It's really all based on your relationships with people. I mean, Joey is one of the most highly respected people in Tonga. So that made it easier for us. And we didn't even go to Tonga thinking we're going to make a film. We went to show Kumohina. But when we met Joe Lean, and I think when she got to know us a little bit, she said, you know, it's actually been a long dream of mine to tell our story so that we can advance our cause. I think if you had the funding and support, I think you should do a feature film on Joe Lean's story because she, at a meeting at the school, was talking about her life and how she stole the mic while she was working in the custodian. You have so many stories. I mean, it is movie material. I'm serious. You are just drama queen by nature, I guess. That's why you have the power. Right. But you need that to be able to be an activist in a way. You need to have the power to attract attention to proceed with this campaign. So with this campaign, what type of impact do you both hope to attain with this film? Joe, you go ahead. Well, we have already started this petition that it's online and it's on our website that everybody can go in and... Yeah. Yes. With this map, what does that mean? You want to tell us a little bit about that? Those are the seven countries that still criminalize homosexuality. In the Asia-Pacific region. When you say criminalize, what is the extent of that? If you're found or, you know, to be acting in a sexual, social sexual activity. In public. In public or if anybody reports you to the police that you molested a child or something like that. The law doesn't really stand or doesn't really describe the actual activity as for social partner activity. But it really directs on rape cases, you know? Many of these laws actually hold over colonial-era laws. There were anti-sotomy laws, same-sex relations. Sometimes cross-dressing. Yeah. But the cross-dressing, definitely. It's illegal in certain countries. It can be. And, you know, these have largely gone unenforced. But the problem that's arising now and what we witnessed and we were working with the community during the year of filming was these people now who have these strong religious, very conservative religious ways. It's not the mainline churches at Tonga that have historically been quite welcoming and accepting. And these more radical churches are now using the existence of these old laws to say, see, these people don't belong here. Yeah, but that's what I meant, you know? Because they're using that. They're using that law to actually put us into jail, you know? Put us to jail. Or justification for discrimination and all kinds of things. And it's hardening, because, you know, with all the comfort that you grew up in and all that, it's been raised in parliament a few times, you know? And especially when AIDS came into the, you know, as a topic during parliament, sorry. Someone just turned around and said, oh, maybe we should send those people to one of the islands called Makonai or Makonai or whatever. Well, it's excluded here. They think that by isolating you, you might change and go back to what you're supposed to be. But the idea behind the campaign is like a film, as you know, it gives people like personal stories. You can see people as human beings, as family, as relatives, as people. And so the idea behind the campaign, Jolene and her colleagues are saying, let's use this film to go to islands across the Pacific to bring people together, to see the stories, to feel the emotions, to challenge people's hearts and minds, and then tell a know-it-together, as Jolene said. You know, like how are we going to work together to overcome the stigma and the discrimination and the threats that these laws pose to people's lives. But that takes a lot of advocacy, a lot of outreach and individual talks with small groups. I mean, Joey, you haven't, I don't know how much you mentioned about your personal life. I believe you said you have three children, three adopted children. As a mother, how do you feel about educating the younger generation about the inclusivity and the importance of understanding and respecting people for who they are? I think it will really start from home, because I, when the kids, when I raised them, I never hid anything from them. You know, I never hid anything about the work that I do, my personal life. And even my condom campaign, I never hid that from them. They grew up in my house seeing all the, you know, because our office was, yeah. I mean, especially when we do campaigns, we'll have dispensers of condoms everywhere to be distributed to all the hotels, the bars, you know, and everything. And, you know, my youngest one was the only one who actually asked me how, I mean, what is condom, what is it about? That's the thing, we need to ask questions. So people have questions, we have a very limited time left. How can people ask questions of how to learn more about the film and advocacy? We would love it if people would go to the website ladiesandwaiting.com and in particular to look at the petition that Jolene and a number of her colleagues have started to get support to challenge these laws and even more support to advocate for the protection and the promotion of basic human rights for LGBTI people. So schools, organizations, everybody can go and take this film and use it as a form of discussion to further your campaign. Well thank you so much and I'm so sorry that we don't have enough time. I would love to talk to you for hours and hours on end. But thank you so much for your time and good luck with the film and the movement. Thank you very much.