 We are nine minutes into the build OGM column Tuesday, June 22nd, 2021. Phil, thanks for reminding me about recording. So let me pause for a second and sort of see, I think one of the things OGM can do is be a champion for the visualization, the use of powerful tools that are beyond Wikipedia and beyond a simple database to make sense of the world and to integrate a lot of what's going on. Different movements around the world. So that makes sense. Did I phrase that wrong? I think that makes sense. I wonder, I wonder how that superpower kind of accrues to OGM rather than to, for instance, Trove or, you know, So I think, so I think OGM is the meeting spot for the variety of different tools where each of the efforts is specialized and really expert in the particular thing that they're doing. And the OGM's emphasis is in the clicking together of the tinker toys to build something larger a collaborative sense making space, which is not something we're actually doing yet. This is on the aspirational wish list. But I think that I think that the connection of capacities and databases and in particular the motivation of the tool makers to connect their tools so that so that it isn't just that gosh isn't it good that the data is linked, but that so a conversation that involves a variety of different visualizations becomes a power tool for sense making, as opposed to, hey, hey, I've got a picture of this somewhere off in Kumuland with a proprietary like like that is sort of interesting, but not really the connected conversation we're sort of we're looking for here in the middle. And I think that OGM can be the cauldron, the container, the attractor for a variety of different efforts that are that are busy trying to move toward that kind of world. What the last point was about the technical connection and that's my bill, you know, my focus of interest and I absolutely approve. But I think from the social angle right a lot of people in OGM are social connectors. The problem that we all have is that social connect social connectors or idea connector like, but human idea connectors humans connection makers are very much working in isolation. And what is a social. I almost want to say not an IP structure but a social alignment of incentive. So connection makers can work together and work as teams and connect not just their data but then their work. And, and I think it's the same for the more generic issue of all the elements of solutions with are not necessarily solution based but how to create incentives for collaboration. And the question, but it's especially salient for us, because we're the we're the primary beneficiaries of connection, because we're the connection makers, but yeah. I don't have a quick answer there but I don't know what that sounds like. Okay. But I say hi. I can. John, your voice is completely breaking up we're not actually hearing you properly. See if I can prove it. Thanks. I am in a car but I have hands free. Okay, good. Good. Don't hit anything. I won't hit anything. Let me let me try this. Well, yes, very, very on point comments the last, you know, four or five comments like oh yes absolutely absolutely that's that's true that's an issue. So there's two parts to this one is how do you create the motivation among the, the more typically idiosyncratic thinker connector makers like us some of me anyway I'll say that motivation to coalesce. And to how do you create a representation of your, your product that both says, Oh, hey, you know, it's not just a bunch of disconnected ideas, but neither is it a forced consensus or the kind of shoe horning that often happens with some models finger and I don't have a super answer to that. But this used to come up in scenario planning. And there we said, Well, we got four scenarios to have five, you know, and yeah, we actually did six points. But that was one of our tricks. We said, Well, we have important things that unify us and important things that divide us. And they're both important and we got to somehow capture it. And, and we got generally for and unlike cheap. We, where they said, Well, we got the two axes. Okay, we're done structurally. We got a lot of nuance to fill in but we're done structurally. And what we used to say was no we're not done. We got to make sure that we have represented the diversity in ways the diversity of thought and the diversity of framework in ways that don't. In some way disadvantage one that is perhaps an unconventional enough to be unpopular. So we in fact used to somewhat engineer the scenarios so that the weirder idea would look more normal. And so that the normal idea we made sure that we, we said well and by the way when we do that we're going to run into this. This is the explosion in this brick wall in this brick wall. So our scenarios were never, it was never like good to bad. No, no, no, no. In fact, people when they first read the scenarios they would get frustrated they would say, Oh, well, I see you did this thing it's really great you know how did why did you put it all this other stuff. While we were trying to make each we're trying to quote unquote balance them. So that and the other thing we did was, we said they were unfinished. We answered a whole bunch of questions and we specifically did not answer various questions in the scenario. And that meant that it wasn't a closed tool, it was a tool that you had to finish. So therefore, it almost by definition said, you need to come in on this and input and add more to it. That makes it sound like it's a wonderful solution and I'm sure not saying that I'm saying, like something like that we might like something that would, you know, it would be good if something we come up with work that way. I can imagine it being a hybrid of visual tools and other kind of tools. But I think the an important idea to keep is that the representation doesn't contain a conclusion. That it represents the controversy as well as it representing the partial or the significant consensus around those assumptions that are worth asserting as collaboratively sound. Okay, so I'm John and I've spoken. Thanks. Thanks, John. And I want to pick up a couple of things there. One of which is that. I think you stated early on that, and I'm going to paraphrase it but so there's not an intention here to homogenize centralized or suddenly turn all this stuff into one great model, or one great platform or one great thing to win them all. There's a sovereign sort of self sovereignty of points of view that's really important here. There's a lot of tools and tool use in some sense, but there's a desire to connect them and unify them. So as you described scenarios and scenario logics and I've been involved in a couple months of multiple scenario workshops. Wouldn't it be great. If all the scenario logics were available publicly, wouldn't it be great it's just a little bit like you know research projects that didn't turn into a PhD disappear from view instead of being shared into, you know the failed research database and the sharing of data and whatever else but but wouldn't it be interesting if that happened and then one of the weaknesses of scenario planning is that you wind up with a bunch of scenarios that are what people in the room know at hand. What if it was easier for them to connect to actual research and actual sort of insights about the different forces they're playing with in the scenarios what if what if as they built out scenarios they could plug into much wiser sort of scenarios of how things work and what might be happening in the scenarios, for example. And there's a bunch of other things I can just this is just scenario planning as one of many different kinds of group group process and futurism tools, but I can think sort of tool by tool of ways in which we could enrich the tool the process the memory of the event. The things and all of that sounds very OGM me to me. And I had this vision of sort of a dendritic patch panel behind the scenes of the scenario workshop, where, where you could plug. Oh, okay this one says there's going to be energy to cheap to meter, and we're going to be happy so let's plug that into what is energy to mean in public discourse, and what are the insights and implications that are already available on that. And, and then there's this other piece of you don't want the puzzle to complete which you also just said john. So, in some cases you want deep access out to what other people have done on these smart and different issues. In other cases you don't you just want people to be inventing as much as they can locally and that makes sense and those are these are all I think design things that would be at hand for everybody. And market one you weren't quite done with what you wanted to say and then I've got Pete Stacey class and Scott. Let them go ahead. Dr. Kaminsky. Thank you. It's a, it's, it's interesting. So, I, maybe I wanted to relate a little bit about flotilla, because flotilla seems to be kind of a solution in the same vein that that we're thinking about. Maybe Vincent and I are kind of outliers. So we both are interested in outreach from our sovereign to other sovereigns and we're also passionately interested in interoperability. So it was easy for us to say we should be talking together. One of the, one of the interesting things was that in talking together we essentially formed more, more or less a new sovereign a new quest or whatever you want to call flotilla. It seemed important to both of us, selfishly in a way, maybe selfishly in a good way, I hope. I think that, you know, from my point of view is like, you know, Vincent, I've got things to say about the space that trove is in, but I don't want to have it that happening in the in a trove container. And I think Vincent, the same thing you know he's like I really appreciate what massive is doing I appreciate the kinds of things you're talking about with directories and matchmaking. And I'm not I don't want to join your, your, your deal either. So we specifically created something that was in the middle that was a separate sovereign. And as, as time has has passed, you know, Charles is in there to Michael and Michael and filler in there with factor. It feels like that place in the middle was was really important to do. Another thing that was interesting as flotilla came together was that each of us brought like what felt like a fairly big asset and an asset that was directly aligned with the problem statement. So the problem statement for flotilla is something like we want to have tools for connectors. So massive is a tool for connecting factors a tool for connecting keek lab is is a tech set of technologies for connecting trove is for connecting. So, maybe there were two things one of them is that instead of kind of a generic thing he wouldn't be good about talking about interoperability or something like that, more in the abstract. We were talking in fairly focused kinds of things, you know, what would a, what would a organizational directory look like, and if, if matchmakers were using it. What would you know what would they do with it so I think the focus of maybe maybe kind of more quest oriented rather than generic oriented might be good. Although now that I think about it flotilla has turned into something where it's a much more like it feels like a an industry association more than and we cover, you know, serially different things that are important around interoperability and things like that. So just just some thinking about kind of, you know, how to how to do things and maybe the kinds of OGM may be able to help the kinds of people who wouldn't found them wouldn't have found themselves. You know, pushing to be together the way flotilla the flotilla folks have. And that's kind of what I wanted to reflect on what you just said which is, you know, all that behavior just described was really OGM me. It was an instinct to work together to connect the tools to build something in between to share assets, a whole bunch of things that feel to me like really really OGM me. And that which I would, which I would love to encourage and I think OGM, and so far as it exists as something between us wants to promote, and even just, you know, awareness that we all exist near each other. And then when something gets really nice and specific because we have a particular database implemented a particular tool next to another one and some other tool and interoperability is a conversation that gets that you get to be really specific. And this is for a very special case and the conversation can then like move to completion and then lather rinse repeat for everybody else. And this should influence other people and their tool choices and how you know, everybody's kind of jockeying to figure out what role do they play what's their secret sauce or special sauce and how do they how do they plug it into the broader thing. So all that feels very OGM me. Stacy then Klaus and Scott and Phil. Yeah, I'll be very brief but regarding that structure for alignment. One of the reasons I was excited about that email chain about the videos is because I see a possible experiment regarding creation of videos as being structured in a way that it could really make everything I hear all of you talking about. And if anybody wants to have a call specifically about how that would work. I would really be up for that. Do you mean a provoking challenging inviting a bunch of people to create meaningful short videos or find or create meaningful short videos to continue improving that, but also figuring out a way to instrument each of the videos so that they're more easily linked and contextualized and found or something like that I'm making this up as I go but I think that's what you're saying in part. I have all of the above I mean I started writing notes it was almost like an experiment offering different opportunities but the umbrella is that we were going to either empower certain projects that were coming to have whoever we have making the videos. So you'd have the people that like making the videos that's where the diversity comes from. So you'd have the people that want their projects highlighted, but then it could be tied in with all the different tools and the choices and I mean it's a it's a complicated ideas I couldn't just say it in five minutes but I've been thinking about it for years. And I'd love to know what everybody else thinks about that and I, it lights up in my head really nicely because I love making videos like that. I'm not an expert at it but I love making short videos to try to put a shiny nugget of an idea in the world. And I like the interconnections between them so I was using Prezi a whole bunch until they lobotomized Prezi, but I would create like six different presentations that use the same Prezi, and I'd be working through it and then I would link the presentations on YouTube in a playlist which is like the linking mechanism of YouTube. I could point to them in my brain and hook them up in my brain connected to what each of the videos was trying to say and do. And that's obscure as well. But I was trying to like do some of the embroidery myself with the primitive tools at hand and wouldn't it be great if we had more powerful tools more people doing this, etc etc. Well, and I think an important part that gets left out is the social networking that gets weaved in a long way. So, you knew Michael, do you knew Michael Giuseppowitz? I'm not sure I did. Oh, I don't know if anybody here knew him but he was, he was very beloved in the different conversational communities and one of the legacies he left he has a bunch of people in different places in Africa that he had really like mentored and when he passed away. He was another man in the ecology of systems bankers, Klaus must know him. Peter Jones took over his work. My point is some of the projects they're working on have to do with solar. Some of the projects have to do with education. And yet they're in Africa. And this man was like just as one possible idea like if I were just throwing something out. I know so many people around to, you know, make a video of his work, because so many, you know, of the different people wherever their interest was. This is just a small piece of what I'm talking about. But I'm saying this because I know so many people that have all these different skills, some of you are very familiar with at least some of them. I couldn't tell you who knows who but I know, you know, from the Facebook, you know, and from the social networks that you guys would know each other, not necessarily agree with everything politically, but it would be a common, you know, the umbrella would be storytelling, and connecting and well being and, you know, all the things that we talk about here. And I'm going to shut up now. That's okay is Michael than a medic sky. Okay, he's in my brain but I've never met him so I ran across his work at some point. And I just put a link to him in the chat here. Thanks Stacy and, and I just want to say, I would love to get together with anybody who feels like it to throw small video making parties and figure out what this looks like and how to do it and move it forward that that would, I would be thrilled to participate in that. Let's go to class Scott Phil. What, what comes to mind is, I mean, we're all looking for open doors, and oftentimes we run into a door that just doesn't want to open. And so then you step back and you say so what happened here. So this morning. Ken and I are participating in this training course for the hosted by the Institute for evolutionary leadership. And this week we have no beta send on, and we're actually going to get the meter on Friday and so we have this two hour session to prepare and then we have a one hour work session this nor herself. And what what cut my attention can post it something this morning. And what cut my attention is this is this statement here systems change is not about fixing the system. It's about sense making right. If we can make sense to people that will change their behavior, you know if some if I have an aha moment on whatever it is. It changes the way I think about what I just learned. This is a hierarchy in in sense making and understanding. And then I then we look at our own journey. I think everyone here and you're over when you look back over the last year. We have been feeling and sensing our way into knowing right into understanding the interdependencies that are in the system. The nature of systems thinking is to understand interdependencies and connections. And what I've what I'm noticing because I've been doing this now for 10 years. The point is that the system itself has moved on into further and further understanding of our relationship with nature, the threat that we are posing to the ecosystem to our own survival and so on and so on. I really like the the way that don't know a meadows has positioned us with hierarchy, you know, places to intervene in a system, starting with narrative narrative is sense making if we have a story that makes sense. But then from there, the system starts flowing into self organizing, because that knowing flows down, that's not a good word, but it flows through the system, and then, and then it creates responses at every, at every space, you know within the economy within society. So I think, when we are when we are thinking when we are talking about this knowledge base and the, the way to communicate and developing an archive and so on. We should take put in keep in mind the need for hierarchy. You know so with with with an elite in statements. Yesterday I was watching Bill Maher, and he was talking about water in California. You know so so he decided several examples about the idiocy of going almonds that take 1900 gallons of water per pound of almonds in a desert that has no natural water source. So once you once you come to understand, you know the the macro sense of our water supply is threatened, then you start looking you know at what does this mean and how does this all fit together and how do we respond to this. So, so that's that's. I think that was that was sort of that that's really is sort of my aha moment right so don't don't push for things that that just don't want to happen for whatever reason but find the doors that are open, and there are plenty of open doors. Thank you very much for that. And I've heard Nora before she's really brilliant. And she's got something. It's funny, it's something sort of like Dave Snowden has which is a different perspective on how things work. And that comes out, you know, kind of more poetically than than than Snowden Snowden is more of a dry Welsh guy who's very clear when he speaks but. But there's a piece of this is counterintuitive to people who just want to map the whole system and try to plan to fix it. This is like it happens by happen chance got that. And only when and I love only when the interdependencies come into view I think that's crucial. One of the things that are kind of invisible are our interdependencies one of the things that we've snipped away over time are interdependencies we've institutionalized the repair of those interdependencies in many ways we've offloaded. You know those interdependencies to to to group to somebody else that somebody else's job not mine that takes away some of our responsibilities and mutual assistance and so forth. So this and as Mark I'm trying to say that's very sort of very Dallas like finding the way the water is trying to go. So, so in discovering our interdependencies are getting bringing them into view is really lovely poetic language for us because it feels like it feels in some sense like the mixing of the pot on Thursdays is a way of seeing our interdependencies and seeing who's who in the room and starting connections and when three people decide to go have their own meeting and do something. So my heart is really really happy, like that to me feels like like great progress on on all these things. So thank you for that. Michael Doug. Excellent. Welcome to the call. And I wanted to pause for a second and see if anybody else wanted to add something to what Stacy had put in the conversation earlier, because I was like really happy to talk about it but I didn't make room for everybody else so any thoughts on on Stacy's initiative. I was going to talk towards it but I figured we can let Scott speak first. I'm happy to hear from you Phil just because I wanted to be complete on Stacy's idea. So go ahead. Well, I think quickly kind of tying Stacy and, and Peter's points together. I'm part of flotilla flotilla is this great standing meeting we have every fighter to discuss interoperability. And I think Stacy's idea as well. And, and to mark Antoine's point in the chat. The video end of things is a great, great way to start. One of our kind of missions is to make wisdom more accessible so maybe as part of our project project outcomes we look at video text audio as different ways to kind of disseminate information and wisdom, and they can all work together. I have as a question in terms of, of starting up a group like Stacy's is, what do we need, how first how can OGM support, and what do we need from the project owner or the group owner to get it up and running basically so I think I know Pete did a bit of work on sovereigns but I was just curious, it was just a simple, someone willing to be a project owner outside of, outside of ourselves basic outside of Jerry and myself. And then, it can even just be a question that we raised the group is anyone interested in exploring how we can use video to do x, or is anyone, and we can have a kind of initial call and then from there kind of create that sovereign entity that that Pete outlined, I'm just kind of curious that makes that question really. I like that question, and I'm wondering how formal or informal, does it need to be, and could it be kind of different from some of the sovereigns we're talking about here could it just be like, Hey, there's a party schedule. And here's a page where we've described what it means to be part of this party and we whatever wisdom we derive from how to make the videos how to tag them up where to put them what to do, how to find other people who'd like to make videos. And so we put the songs on a page on our website, or and the channel on matter most, and maybe that's the convening and what happens is randomly on on their own schedule, small subsets of people pop up and say, Hey, let's the four of us get together and make a video about this subject that we have in common, and they go do that and they put that in the mix and they throw that on our on our media on our channels. We then like help me get some attention to it but it maybe it becomes an informal. So these sort of let's have a party where small subsets get together to make things and put them put them in, as opposed to another standing call for all of us every week that has like a project manager kind of thing I don't know. It feels like that would make happy work out of it and still get the tasks done but I could be could be off on it. Stacy any strong feelings one way or the other. I'd love to have a smaller meeting I get uncomfortable talking right now. Thank you. I'd be happy to meet later on to talk about how we can kind of help help that project at launch that that works. Yeah, I would like it. I'll reach out on matter most sounds great thank you out in the chat. I'm not. Can you give me your email or something. Yeah, yeah, I'll do that now. Thank you. Any other thoughts on that. Please Scott. A simple one on the area of video creation. I like making content. I like picking subjects. I like distilling it down to a couple minutes. I hate all of the videos I've ever made, because I don't present well. And what I'm trying to say is that breaking apart video creation into people that create content people that select subjects, people that distill things down to here's the Bible. People to make visuals, people that like to speak and have voices that are less and people want to listen to. That's kind of just a thought how do you how do you split those roles out so that there's an opportunity at the end. There's one video, but it wasn't Jerry makes a video Scott makes a video Mark makes a video clouds makes a video you know it. Yeah, we're right. So I want to amplify what you just said Scott because, because a piece of what I think OGM could do a part of our promise is to push the tools a bit forward. So, Pete has like gotten me to start loving descript and I haven't used it yet but it's like this sort of video author tool that automatically creates a transcript and several, like, like, we've been using order dot AI because zoom has a deal with the automatic transcript of our calls. We don't have it for all of our calls we have it only for a few, because the collective next zoom room pays for that feature, but so we have an auto transcript of a bunch of things. The script creates an auto transcript just like that except that it lets you edit the transcript to move things around. That's a feature. I'm really interested in annotating the transcript so that it has links out into the world of our collective imaginations and what we've discovered so that the videos as they play might have. Hey, show me the track of Pete's annotations to the video, or Pete's and Scott's or anybody in OGM's annotations to this video, enhancing the video and sending me off into investigations to the soil fertility or whatever else it might be. And I think that's, and then, like, going back and forth because descript has this interesting ability to get a print of your voice, and then you can change the script, say, make this happen and then it will simulate using Liar Bird, which it has a deal with it'll simulate your voice and then create a new video that goes back in. That's kind of weird and interesting, but but how might we play with these tools in an OGM to create a richer different experience than YouTube videos that live on YouTube and might be collected up as a playlist, or that we point to, and the best we do is we point to an offset of the number of seconds into the video to start playing, and that's like the richness of tools that YouTube gives us, what else might we do. And I think that that's a fun exploration. I like that a lot, and that feels, I've been searching for a way to actually work collaboratively, because I find that I work by myself, and for better or worse tend to prefer that. And when I try to work with others, what I feel like is we're trying to do all do the same roles at the same time. It just is, it's hard. But if, if my thought was well all I'm trying to do is to listen to this meeting, and, and pull out a subject that sound really good for a five minute university, and then make a little couple bullet point and then someone else says great, here's the stack of, of all the bullet point outlines of subjects that have been have been pre pulled and then pre voted like we want to do this. And then, then there's a, you know, here's the videos that are ready to be annotated, you know, whatever. So, Descript is also apparently a happy group project platform where lots of people can help make a video only editors have to pay for an account people who are sort of browsing and commenting don't have to which is interesting, but their paid model is relatively expensive. It's not a cheap platform. But there was also, there's a platform that vanished from view it was an open source project that just disappeared I don't remember its name it was something like crayon, but it wasn't create your own newspaper that was another crayon, or mouse or it had a name it had an acronymic name, and it was basically compose your video together so imagine a video editing tool that's that's a group tool on with a complete web interface, where I put up a script, would anybody like to shoot some video rabbit, anybody could add a soundtrack to it, and then do fades and cuts on the soundtrack, and then anybody could then turn on and off any of the contributions, record that version of it and say what do you think, here's a version of that this video, right. And so collectively you could then somebody could say hey here's a better, here's a better visualization of that point that's being made in the script that this part of the narrative. And then you include that and swap out the old one cut a new video and shoving Shabang, and the damn thing vanished and I don't know what it was called anymore. But it, but in my mind wouldn't it be great if we had that kind of a tool that merged some of these capacities with descript for this kind of work. And right now that's outside of our grasp it's not something we can do, but I think, but I think holding ideas like that in front of us and seeing if that shows up or who's already doing it, and inspiring them to move toward the middle is a is an og me thing to do. And because because because we're, it feels to me like we're stuck with books have become Kindle, e pub books or books haven't really progressed very much, and I use a, I use a, an app called, oh gosh I'm forgetting what's called right now read right now. Well, I'll rediscover it, but this, when I highlight a pass a passage in Kindle. I connected to this app, and I get to use those highlights because it talks to the Kindle note the kind of the Kindle highlights. Those become sort of artifacts I can use a little bit outside but I don't really use them outside. It's, it's kind of a wimpy tool but it does a little something that's interesting. The best thing I got to mark up all the wisdom in the books I'm reading. It's like, sad. So, how do we, how do we like improve the art, how do we, how do we move this forward so that we can integrate the wisdom that's in the best videos in the best books in the best blog posts and all that kind of thing. One thing quickly is, I know you to me and course Sarah some of the online kind of universities have shared bookmarks so that if you go into a course you can see people have highlighted this section for this reason or highlighted, so maybe digging into some of the existing knowledge tools, or community knowledge tools and just seeing what works. And also the Scott's point I think it would be great to identify topics you want to cover, as well as what kind of skill sets we need for each like creating each video so like, once we get to the point of saying like, well we want to we need someone to edit we need someone to do a transcript, who's who's strong in these areas just making sure we have kind of teams to dedicate to each video. And none of this is anything that OGM can offer somebody today, which means we're sort of off track of the, what is OGM me now that that we might then bring in an outreach program so I apologize because I'm realizing that I sort of sort of taken us a bit off the track of what's doable now what can we offer other groups Scott. I was reading a post that was talking about how an artist can make a needs to make a body of work. Because having one great piece is not enough. There has to be a set of things and I wonder if that's maybe the I mean we've already there's already been a lot of work on that but if there's a body of work of little snippets of these tools then we can start pointing to them and saying well here's here's a set of 10 tools and I here's a set of 20 tools and maybe that's because it might my challenge has been trying to create the tools before you have the project, because you're always going to be a little off or waiting until you have the project to try to figure out the tools and it's like, well, yeah, I don't know and so we're stuck here, once later, and and we're still trying to get that balance right when it's like well, let's just build some tools, then when people ask us we can point to them, and if we see one that's missing. That's the next subject. Right, right. Agreed, and just folding that with your comment right now in the chat. And then I'll go to your class. In my mind it would be really cool if there was like a little bookmark button that people watching or listening to a live event could press when they when something is said that like memorable interesting whatever to them. And then someone could go look at the clusters of these bookmarks find the beginning and end marks of that little stretch, and then produce that little stretch out, you know, basically call that quote that wrap that in some love and make that a nugget. In some sense, wouldn't it be great if there were simple tools to do that, because right now that means downloading the whole video finding that segment again, editing it and then editing it all by your little lonesome and then all you know all this other so we don't do it. But but if the collective acts of behaving together in the medium made it really simple to do, because there was some collective bookmarking and a God's eye view of the collective bookmarks and ability then to find how to tag the segment and then to collectively edit and improve that segment. All of those things would would make this like a simple, simple task. Yeah, maybe just another way to look at it. The Institute for evolutionary leadership, and we have been in this course now for like 10 weeks or so each week they're introducing like a major thinker, like Scott Snowden, and so they make us read the material that make us discuss it in quick moving codes so every 20 minutes the cope changes. And you're in a different 16 of us so it's 444. We report out and the report out is going to the author. I mean it's so we will have a discussion about what we think about nor beta sense work and what are the highlights and here are some questions that we have for you and it's really quite impressive. Some of the questions that come out of this scope and so the, you know, very lively discussion then this the author. So maybe another way of looking at these these videos would be to highlight someone, you know, who has something profound to say about a topic and give that topic exposure. And then and then stimulate the discussion around around that exposure because it's just an enormous challenge to consolidate knowledge right I mean there's just so much stuff out there and to try to keep track is is is enormously time consuming. So I mean that's basically what we are doing when the other groups that I'm working with like CCL and BCL and so on. Now we are looking at like the directors of the case to ground movie and then we invite them to a discussion and everybody is supposed to watch the film beforehand and read up and then. Now we have a Q&A where the audience is invited in, but it's not us presenting knowledge is us presenting and knowledge. Take a knowledge person. It's just a different way to think on how to structure these these videos. It reminds me of the old joke of how do you eat an elephant. The answer is one bite at a time. Right. Except how do you distribute that task so that there's lots and lots and lots of us busy nibbling away at different parts of the elephant because it is it is huge and complicated. And class what you described is a really nice feeder mechanism, I think to some of the videos that Stacey would have us make. Hey, some of these videos could easily be inspired by thinkers and doers that are out in the world that feel like a great avenue. And then the last thought I have is, I would love for the materials that you and your, your colleagues in the pod in the group that you're in right now. If you would share publicly those feedbacks to the authors and the questions you have, wouldn't that be like a huge contribution to the world. You know, smart people who've actually done the homework and listened in with care, and then offered feedback to the author and if the author answers that is that is that is a highly synthesized interesting conversation. And wouldn't it be great if that were in the in the full public view and remixable reusable filled in Mark Antoine. I think Mark was first. Okay, Mark, sorry. I'm a bit puzzled by this whole conversation and I'm going to be the contrarian curmudgeon. Okay, I don't see anything in this conversation that is specific to videos as opposed to documents. When we're speaking about extracting ideas extracting bullet points. We have the problem that there's too many documents there's too many videos, we'll get tons of and videos are even take longer to bars and documents it's easy to scan a document as opposed to a video. It's very hard to scan a video and that's why I love transcripts. And, okay, we'll find these key ideas but we'll find them in thousands of videos we already have. If you ask Google to look keywords and search and videos it will look in the transcripts, and it will look in. And, and so I see all these social networks reinventing the wheel and trying to make a small community, so that things become manageable again until the communities big enough and then it stops being manageable. Or you're looking at the whole world like Google and it's guess what it's, you get algorithmic detection. The one thing that I sympathized with was the narration versus more rational argumentation that was at the very beginning of the call. And, but narration, like the more you know warm data thing could be written or video doesn't matter. The video versus text is a false dichotomy and yes there are people who are more oral oriented are people like me who are more text oriented. But the whole point of, we have tons of data and searching for highlights still gives us tons of data unless we make artificial small community and that's only last so long. It was just restricting us from the diversity of the world for no good reason. Again, it's worth working on video because some people prefer that modality sure but it will not solve the information overwhelm problem. It will not solve the, how do we get the right people connected to the right solution it does not solve the problem. How do we understand this claim is made in that document and here including video text doesn't matter. And what is where are the contrarian views where are the counter claims where are the diversity of approaches where are the, and how do you not get overwhelmed by all of this how do you cluster them so they are usable, and so on and so forth. That is an information organization problem. And the question of video and text is orthogonal to that narrative versus rational is a germane and perfectly interesting question. Sorry, my being, as I said, can imagine you about this, I have to leave in four minutes. Yeah, so don't don't be sorry and I don't, I don't. I don't think what you said is an objection to what we're talking about except in the sense that we're seen to be fascinated by video and that we're like talking too much by video in the middle. But I'm thrilled that there's easy transcripts made from videos and the transcripts are much easier to work with video is this crazy time consuming temporal medium damn it. And part of what we're talking about is making it more tractable in different ways in which text is already more tractable. So, Oley. And then there's things like hypothesis and a bunch of other projects that are trying to create shadow, I call them shadow internets, so that you can work look on any web page at any body of work and say hey here's what I think about this, this stretch, etc, etc. And I don't know years of interpretation are important, whether again text or video and both need it. Yes. And I don't know why hypothesis isn't a bigger thing. Why didn't turn into Reddit or why what like like why is hypothesis still a small sort of side thing it's open source. We know the, I know the founder we can bring them in, etc, but but like how might we help provoke that to happen, and how might we be less more indifferent to what the what the manifestation of the medium was. So video, like it or not, like the one minute to three minute video is the lingua franca of the modern era, the tick tock video the whatever, lots of people just absorb these things. And it's also a gateway drug so people easily watch videos and then suddenly they're down a rat hole. Some of which is terrible and takes them into Q and on territory, and some of which could help us maybe get them involved in projects that really matter. So my observation is, I love, like a five minute video that explains someone's point of view is my favorite way to learn about some new person. And I could read a couple of posts of theirs, but all the texts look alike. I don't get a sense of their personality I don't get to hear the timbre of their voice, whether they're warm or cold whether they make sense when they speak or not. And the texts to me are sort of this homogenizing force that's cool because we've all civilized ourselves and figured out texts, but there's something about seeing the video. In addition, there's this other dimensionality of a good visualization like any lenders the story of stuff, or that you put a story about the farms or whatever, where the visual is hard to communicate with plain text. So there's something about some of those videos that I think is very powerful. And then let's consider wrapping at the top of the hour here. And thanks everyone for your input. I don't want to throw anything into this at the last minute but I just, I'm just, as I'm sitting here. I'm trying to work through as we talked about the beginning how OGM approaches other organizations and the core of what OGM is. So, this seems like a potential product or working group that OGM could facilitate this. This conversation seems like it should be a working group. And I think at the current in terms of what we can offer projects like Stacy's projects like closest food systems. Projects like that are what OGM flotilla are what OGM is it's projects that OGM is helping connect thinkers and inviting people to join in those conversations might be what we are at the, at the, at the moment. And I think that that that could be enough to go out and say, listen, like, our goal is to connect people who want to work on on the world's wicked issues. This is what's going on currently, if you're interested come and join us. And, and here's our calendar here's our schedule. I think that could be how we move OGM forward at the current time. I agree Phil, and I think that that's our baseline is like we're convening that where people mix and meet and where things get sparked and spawned and that's interesting. And then we've had a couple of experiments that have turned into some code and some some work, and hopefully we'll do more of that but we don't have a lot of that right now. But at least this is a place where you can meet other people interested in the same set of problems so there's like a radar array and there's a bunch of people talking about the stuff that's on that map. That's what we got so far. Thanks Judy. Anybody last word. Let's wrap the call sounds great. There's a couple of speakers in the chat. We cannot like being a nice people night being a group of nice people who congregate around this is nice, but if we want to work together, we need to have a clear idea about shared ownership of work and how to. Well, which is a piece of what we're trying to do on the generative commons calls which is tomorrow morning is called that that's a that's an important partners. Yeah. Now see. Bye bye. Hi everyone.