 So we have a table here saying why aren't you vegan and it's a debate table. You said that you agree with veganism actually, but then you said you don't agree with animals having rights. Yeah. Okay, so let's unpack that because for me it's entailed by veganism that animals have rights. It's an animal rights movement. Well I guess there's two ways you can conceive of veganism. You can conceive of veganism more kind of like a diet which is you know abstention from animal products, but you can also conceive of it as I guess more broadly as a kind of philosophy about the reduction of harm towards animals. But the neither of those two things necessarily entails the existence of animal rights as these kinds of moral entities. Yeah, that's what I'd say. Okay, I would disagree that veganism is about the reduction of harm. I wouldn't even know what that meant. The original definition of veganism was the doctrine that man should live without exploiting animals essentially. Yes. The word exploitation has some weird implications because like there's many things you can consider exploitation, but I would say that humans should live without violating the negative rights of sentient animals. So your veganism isn't from a kind of utilitarian perspective, rather from a kind of idea of animals have certain rights that humans must not have to violate. Yes, negative rights. So yeah, obviously I don't want to vote and drive cars and things like that. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I would say that human rights are based on inherent value. Yeah. We share sentience in common and that's why we don't want to to be interfered with because it matters to us. What happens to us matters to us. I would say animals share that property with us. Therefore they, that we should extend basic fundamental rights to it as well. And why does sentience entail certain rights being given to bearers of sentience? Because that's the only reason that that are being experienced matter. I mean, because they're having experience, what happens to them matters to them. Therefore, it would be a direct contradiction of us expecting those rights respected to not extend those to other beings who, although they're a different species, share that property with us. Why would a non-sentience being need rights that don't exist in the conscious space? But you said something like animals have rights because they have sentience. That sentience means they matter. Yeah, morally, yeah. Yes, okay. But where does that matter? Or why is it the sentience has an inherent kind of moral value that say non-sentience forms of existence don't. Also, we do implicitly accept in conventional morality that non-sentience things can have a moral status. For example, building an extreme example, like necrophilia, we accept that you can't have sex with corpses, even though corpses don't. Sorry? Why does that matter? Why does that matter? Well, I would just say it's just disgusting. I don't like it. Yeah, but exactly because you're a sentient being and it matters to you. Only sentient beings can be disgusted that someone's committing an act of necrophilia. Without sentience, it wouldn't matter. Do you see how suffering can maybe entail by sentience? Yeah, obviously, yeah. Yeah, the fact that someone does something to an object that's not sentient or a body that was sentient, that offends people who are sentient. You know, it's still sentient. That is sentience. That's a metric there for that morality. But now you're saying, okay, so the reason why we disgust is because we have sentience. That disgust does not necessarily entail just because, you know, I feel, I do genuinely feel disgusted of actually farming and I think you're eating meat is pretty gross and so that's why I would support veganism. But at the same time, I don't necessarily think that justifying it in terms of rights because these really rights are just kind of, it seems to me, the very spooky kind of metaphysical concept. I think it's better to base it in a, sorry. Why is it metaphysical and spooky? Anytime sort of normative, so like ought statement is not something that exists in, you can't justify on the basis, it's not something that materially exists. Sorry. So, but the rights are very important to function in society. You have human rights. Yeah, I agree. Do you believe that we shouldn't have human rights? No, no, no. I think we should have like, they're obviously a society. We need to have some kind of like contracts just so that Sounds like a normative. Sorry. We should have rights, human rights. I'm saying the reason why I want to have human rights is because not having human rights leads to a society that I don't think is that I find intuitively just kind of gross, like I don't live in China where I'm having like cameras watching me all the time. Well, I'm talking about negative rights being violated. I'm talking about you being enslaved and killed for a burger. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. So if you didn't have human rights, I mean, I could basically do that to you. Yeah. If I was big enough gun and you didn't have one. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so rights are important, even though there's some, and they don't exist in metaphysical, they're not, they're not, you can't grab a right. Yes. You can't tangibly hold a right. But these right, but these rights are a kind of social, I'm talking about rights as a kind of social relation that, you know, the government does give me the rights not to be slaughtered and turned into a burger. Why do you deserve rights? There's not like an objective reason why I deserve rights, but I just, I just want to have them. Why? Why do you want to have them? Why do I want to have them? Because I'm just have like these kind of desires have been instilled in me by evolution. You know, evolution sort of tends towards, you know, survival and reproduction. And obviously being turned into a burger is not very, it's just because of my, the way I've been programmed by evolution just kind of don't like it. You wouldn't want something bad to happen to you for a burger for me? Yeah. Okay. So now if we, if we replace the animals in animal agriculture with human beings, would you think that's morally abhorrent? I think it's morally abhorrent. Abhorrents, like I said, that we use animals in the first place. Oh yeah, you do. So, but why, so, so you believe it's morally abhorrent? We should stop animal agriculture, stop farming animals for burgers? I think if like, if you're like a, like I say, a Masai farmer in Kenya, and you know, you're, you're, you've, you're herding cows in like a natural way. It's what you've done for millennia. And I don't, I don't receive much, that much of an issue with that intuitively. You know, obviously I think the way that we do it in the Western world with factory farming and the kind of modern industrialized agriculture is pretty gross. I'm not gonna, but obviously I'm not, I'm not gonna apply to like traditional forms of agriculture, but yeah. Well, let's talk about traditional then. Because you're, you're opposed to factory farming? Yeah, I am. Yeah. So great. You're opposed to 98% of farming? Yeah, I am. Yes. Is your, yeah, I do, I do try to, as much as I can to avoid meat although I'm not always successful. But yeah, like that, if I'm being, to be honest, yeah. I mean, there are other industries like eggs and dairy and stuff like. Oh yeah, I do. I do, I don't drink milk and stuff. Okay, okay. So let's talk about the, the idealist farm. And I would can, you know, when people say idealist farm in this country, I mean, it's a lot to do with marketing. So whether or not they exist like that. I mean, it's a different story. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like I, yes. We can talk about your hypothetical farm if you like. Okay, cool. So what, what, what is the idealist farm that you wouldn't oppose? Well, I don't oppose, let's say traditionalist kind of communities. I mean, these places most exist in like third world. The traditional means of agriculture, as you know, they read, they rear cattle and they slaughter them for food. And then they generally eat the entire, the entire cow. They don't like, I mean. So no, no, no, no, no to tell kind of eating, no, to tell kind of eating. Like to me that, I can't really, like obviously the, I think I, if I had to kill a cow, I'd be a bit sad, even if I was, even if the cow has been raised in like pre-industrial kind of states, but at the same time though, I don't really see a reason to morally condemn these people because fundamentally, like if you're a, if you're like a Masai farmer and I think they're from Kenya, you can't, like you can't just go- What does it matter where they're from? Basically, what does it matter if they're Masai from Kenya? Why does it matter? Why does it matter? Because you can't just like go and go to Tesco's and get like, and get like beans. Oh, I get what you mean. Yeah, you get what I mean. I'm not going to like morally, blanketly condemn every area of single instance of animal agriculture, but I will, I do always, I think, in just, in just, modern industrialized animal agriculture is deeply gross and we should stop it. Yeah. Okay. So we'd factor factory farming, but like I'm just saying at what point would you support animal agriculture if they were employing practices that the Masai employees to their house? Well, I mean, it's not really sustainable in like a, in the modern Britain, like you can't- Okay, okay. So I don't support like- I don't care about what's sustainable, but it's sustainable for me to kill human beings. Yeah, true. Yeah, it's better for the environment. I mean, I'm concerned with human rights in that case. Yes, yeah. I mean, we're having animal rights discussion here because you oppose animal, the idea of animal rights. So I'm trying to figure out here, basically, I'm trying to figure out this idyllic scenario and I believe that in that idyllic scenario, the animals are still having their rights violated. Okay. So- And I want to know why you believe that's justified. Like, so the Masai are decapitating cows. Yeah? Yeah, they are, yeah. I think that ought to still happen. If, say, we could stop it by, say, importing food over there- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Why not? Yeah. You think we ought to stop that practice? I don't want to, like, advocate any particular policy that's, because I didn't actually know how it would, if we did import food. Like, I would, ideally, yeah, we wouldn't be killing anyone, anything for food. But in principle- In principle, yeah. I mean, you might not- I'm not asking you to build a framework in practicality to how to solve this issue. Yeah. I'm just trying to figure out, because veganism is a principle. Yes. And that principle, we should, basically, it logically follows our practices in accordance with that principle. Yes. Okay? So I'm trying to figure out, in principle, why don't you believe animals deserve rights, fundamental rights, similar to human beings? Firstly, the way that us humans have rights is we're kind of like implicit contracts between, like, us and the states, and we say to the states, I'm going to, like, not kill you and turn you into a burger, you're not going to kill me and not going to kick time being into a burger. It's a reciprocal contract, you mean? It's a reciprocal contract. We can't really have contracts with animals in that kind of way, but at the same time, just because we can't have those kinds of contracts doesn't mean that we should, like, I think it's right to torture animals in factory farms on that basis. But the reason why I don't believe in animal rights is because it's just a very spooky kind of concept, I think, philosophically, the idea that, you know, the pigeon over there has some kind of rights that are, like, objectively bad to violate. I think that there is... Subjectively bad. So you don't believe that these rights are objective? No, I don't think they're objective. I don't think they exist in objective reality. I mean, I don't think morality is objective either. OK. All right, we're on the same page, yeah. Morality is clearly subjective. I mean, you need a subject to perceive it and to create it and to uphold these things. And of course, I'm saying that our subjective morality is contradicting itself. Yes. And so it's not consistent. That moral framework is not consistent. I'm saying if humans deserve rights because we share inherent value, yes, it doesn't matter if a human being can reciprocate a social contract or not. Because there are human beings who cannot, children, yeah, people who are born with some type of disability, cannot reciprocate a social contract. We still give them human rights. You cannot violate their human rights. You go to prison. Yes. It's based on inherent value. It doesn't matter if you're a different race, if you're a different... Yes. Where you're from, what social economic status you're at, we have human rights for universal, yeah? Yes. People violate them. Countries violate them. True, but they're there. They seem to be well established as well. Well... Well, I mean, okay, you know, in the UK we can talk... In, like, they're not... But you just said in different countries they get violated. So it doesn't really show that they're universal. Well, they're supposed... There was a human rights, what is it, 1950s? So there was a universal declaration on human rights? Yes, there was. And it was a promise to... There was only, like, three countries that didn't sign it or something like that. I think Russia was one. There was an A.S.S.S.S.R. back then or U.S.S.S.SR. back then. But most countries followed from this principle that human beings have inherent value, therefore we ought to strive to respect human rights. Yes. You know what I mean? Yeah. So what I'm saying is it's based on inherent value and what is that based on? Why would humans matter if we weren't conscious? Obviously, a brain-dead human doesn't matter unless they're... The only reason a brain-dead human matters is because of their family and things like that. Yes. So people switch to switch off people that are on life support all the time because they realize they're not becoming back, they're not there anymore. Yeah. Animals share this property with us, right? Yes. So can you please, for me, I want to ask you... I want to write down these traits too. So basically, I want you to justify why human beings should have these rights and animals should not. And is there some type of trait or characteristic that separates us from animals and what that is? Well, so why should humans have rights when animals should not? Yeah, these fundamental rights I'm talking about here. Well, I think that... What's the trait? It's not necessarily... My argument isn't necessarily that humans should have rights because they do have rights via the social contract and that in the sense that I don't think we should kill animals we should have the right not to be killed for foods that humans... I don't think there's a morally relevant characteristic that necessarily excludes animals from having that rights. So in that sense, I think I'm in agreement with you. Yeah. Okay. You agree with me then? Sorry? You do agree with animal rights then? Yes, but just not as this objective thing. I think... Okay, so maybe we're missing on the idea of what rights we were talking about. Yeah, I think so, yeah. Okay, okay, because I thought that was easy. No, no, no, no, no. We'll have to go through them because basically I was looking for a morally relevant difference as to why humans should have these basic fundamental rights not to be interfered with and enslaved and killed and tortured. Yeah. And why animals should not. Yes. Separating factor was and you basically said I think animals should have those rights as well. We should give them rights in the sense that we should treat them with respect and not torture them in factory farms. Well, not torture them. I'm just saying treat them as property, not respect their... Yeah, so basically animals are considered property even if they're not tortured. And also I can do... If I'm a farmer, I can do what I want to these sheep, isn't it? So I mean, would you be against dog ownership as well then on that basis? No, well, ownership, yes. I think we should change ownership to not the dogs being considered our property. I think we should be considered guardians like we are with children. Yeah, I would agree with that, yes. So obviously animals, you can't just let dogs run around and give them all freedom because that wouldn't be in the animal's best interest. But right now, if I have a dog, I can take them to go get put down or drop them off at the shelter and whatever. Their interests are not... Dogs and cats are difficult because their interests are actually respected more than farmed animals. They have more sort of legal protection than farmed animals, but they're still considered property. Yes. And I think I should change to guardianship and have their interests actually... Yeah, my overall point was that rights aren't these like objective things. And I think the one I most agree with is virtue ethics. I kind of think that we should try and cultivate character traits within ourselves that are inherently kind of have normative concepts built into them. So, example, like being courageous or being kind or being charitable. These are all kind of concepts that have got normative concepts built into them. They are already a value of concepts and we should try and cultivate those dispositions. And I think we should... I think by treating animals with respect, not necessarily the kingdom is kind of a way of cultivating that. So I do... I'm not 100% in any ethical camp, but I do think that's the one I have the most sympathies for. Okay, I'll get you. Like, I'm more in the camp of some deontology but with a certain threshold, I would say that that threshold of utility overridden the rights of that individual. So I'm not saying that like just one person, if you did like... Because you can create some pretty hilarious hypotheticals that make deontology look crazy. You can create really easy hypotheticals that make negative utilitarian look insane too, like five rapers getting pleasure from raping one individual with the utility gain. So, yeah, I'm more of a rights person, but there's a threshold of which I go, well, that's just crazy, you've got to like... So you'd be willing to, let's say, kill someone if it meant that a million people didn't get mutilated? I wouldn't say a million, because then you can sort of justify human testing for medication and things like that. I would probably say it would have to scale up into billions before I would sincerely violate the rights of a billion, maybe, or hundreds of millions. I don't know where that line is, but I know there's definitely a line. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, this is why I like virtue ethics because you don't really have to have structure that's just moral rule, you have to always apply. You do have a kind of disposition that you try to follow and you try to balance the various kind of practical considerations within a given ethical situation. My ethics is very much inspired by Aristotle, because Aristotle does say, it is in a way kind of, in a certain sense, egoists, Aristotle's virtue ethics. What's an egoist? I guess it's the real highest value is yourself and your own kind of well-being, however you define that. I do think that is kind of, I mean, I don't want to like get into like, I'm basically saying that we should be virtuous because virtue does, being virtuous does benefit humans. And that's kind of like the primary reason because that's the only real thing we have access to that can kind of give us rights and role. Do you think that would give a good framework for society? Sorry? What do you think gives a better framework for us in society, virtue ethics or rights? Or virtue ethics, I think, because if we kind of, if we cultivate, if we cultivate virtues, then we don't have a reason to have these rights in the sense of, you know, we don't have to, like no one would, no one would like unnecessarily kill animals if everyone was virtuous. Oh yeah, if you can, yeah, but, yeah. Yeah, yeah, but you, that's like, that's talking about, you're talking about brainwashing people into, or not brainwashing them, but you're talking about changing the consciousness and preferences of people into virtuous humans. Yeah. I don't wanna like clockwork orange people into being virtuous. No, yeah, of course. So basically, essentially that's what you'd have to do. You'd have to cultivate virtue within people and hope that they subjectively act in that way. But rights, you can protect people with the rights in law so that it doesn't matter what your preferences are whether you're virtuous or not, you're protected from me from enslaving you. Yes. Let's just say one day on virtuous, one day I wanna enslave you for a burger. You have rights protecting you no matter what. Well, yeah, well, I mean, hopefully you would have like virtuous people in charge who would like obviously try to enforce a certain minimal kind of... Wouldn't you have to violate some type of thing of some type of protection a human has for them to even start coming after you with... Sorry? Wouldn't you have to violate a human in some way? Like you could... Yeah. Like I think rights are a good framework for that. If they violate a human's rights, then we should step in. You know, I think that's why I think rights are good too, legal rights. And I think like if we extend those to animals... Yes. Then it doesn't matter if you wanna eat them or not, if you have some ethic that says, ah, as long as they're having living net positive lives, I can kill them on some Messiah farm. You know? Yeah. You know, it doesn't matter. They have rights and you're gonna get in trouble. You're gonna get someone to step in. Obviously there is a society that's gonna be vicious people. And I do think, ideally we would have virtuous people in charge who will be able to get to some way sort of stop those vicious people. Like let's say, like obviously if someone wants to go, if there is a mass murder on the loose, I would want the state to step in and stop them. Yeah. And I do think on that basis, yes, maybe obviously there should be some kind of legal sort of prohibition on killing people and on like, and killing animals. What about this? It's killing or violating the negative rights of sentient beings. Yes. Cause that's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about. Yeah. Like if you believe, you obviously don't believe in, I mean, you have a problem with the rights. So let's just say because we have this, we share this property, we share sentience. Sentient beings is what I'm concerned of not necessarily animals or people that we're sentient. That's the thing I'm tracking. Yes. So if we had some law in place that meant we can't violate these sentient beings, that would protect us all. I mean, I wouldn't care if it was virtue or what you called it. If you called it, not called it a right, you called it a virtue, not to do that, but it was encoded into law. That would fulfill the same function as a right. Yeah. So I mean, as long as these sentient beings are protected from this type of slavery or whatever, then I would be on board with that. I mean, you've changed your word right to virtue or whatever. Yeah, I mean, I do think we ultimately... Applied virtue? I do think we ultimately don't disagree. Like I do think that obviously there should be, in society should enforce certain standards against humans, whether you put them in terms of like subjective rights or like objective rights, it doesn't really matter. But I think, but yeah, I think we basically just do, do we do agree? We agree, semantics differences, maybe a little bit of ethical, I'm just saying this could be laws protecting both animals and humans. Yeah, I mean, I agree. There should be legislation to protect laws and animals. In that sense, yeah, I agree with animal rights. In the sense, I don't think animal should have the right not to be tortured in factory farms. Oh. Sorry. Because I'm not always just concerned with torture. Yeah. Actually, if I wouldn't want you to be tortured, I wouldn't want you to be... I mean, I think like obviously... Other things to happen that don't involve torture. Obviously, my ideal like utopia, there would be a complete injunction against like unjustified killing of animals. I mean, obviously it's going to be some people in society, like let's say, if you feel like a soy in the nut allergy, then you're kind of, you can't really become a vegan. You have to, you are going to have to rely on animal products. Unfortunately. That sounds like an empirical claim. That sounds like an empirical claim like that. If you have an allergy, then you can't become vegan. I mean, then only in the future, we might invent some way of being able to feed, like feed people who... Is it okay to feed people to those people who have a nut allergy? I mean, no, but feeding a person is to me a lot more intuitively horrible than like feeding, let's say a pigeon. But... So, can you name the trait? Sorry? Can you name the trait between that separates? So... I have more affinity for humans than I do for pigeons. Okay. So intuitively, so it's not some type of... Well, yeah, I mean, like for fundamentally, there is... What I'm trying to say is that just if I... In evolutionary psychology, there is kin selection. Like you're going to prefer people, like things that are more genetically... I get you. Of course. It's intuitive, it's not like a... Yeah, it's not like, it's not like, I've got, obviously I don't want, I wouldn't want the pigeon, ideally, to have to be killed in the first place. But if there's, but like... Who's saying we should violate these animals' rights or have a loophole for a soy and nut allergy where we can cut animals' heads off for this person? If there was someone who literally just couldn't eat, who could not eat vegan products, I would be willing to sacrifice some pigeons for them. Who could you choose to kill to help those people? I was going to say, ideally, we would find a way such that they could follow a, have a healthy diet and also not necessarily kill animals. Yeah, so we would create some... We would create a way to feed them that wouldn't involve violating human rights. Yeah, yeah, but my point, the reason why I said, because I mean, how do we get onto this point? I mean, you said, I said I didn't want to torture animals, and you said, I think you said that you... I said I didn't... We should ban the fact that we're farming, basically. I wouldn't just use the word torture, because there are ways you can raise animals for food that don't involve torture. I mean, yeah, obviously, yeah. Like, I wouldn't describe, like, pre-industrial, like, farming processes in, like, Africa as being kind of, as being torture, even though they do involve animal dying, which obviously makes me sad, but yeah. Murdered not dying. Sorry. Animals die, but they are murdered against their preference to live, which is... Well, I mean, murder, what is murder? It's unjustified killing, and I do think, like I said, it's not that hard for these people, it is hard for these people to just go to the shops and buy a kind of chickpeas. They are kind of... I still think it's a violation of animal rights, whether you're in a situation... Like, it's me and you are in a survival situation right now, and I've cut your head off. I've still violated your rights. Yeah, you did, but it wouldn't be like... If, let's say, you and I... Did you say it's justified that I did that? If you and I were stuck on a desert island, there was literally no other, like, there was literally no other nothing that we could eat, and we eventually had to resort to, like, fighting each other to the death, and the loser gets eaten. No, no, not each other. You were a victim. You didn't want to kill me. I just decided to cut your head off and eat you. You were vulnerable against me. I had a knife, you didn't, and I thought, you know what? He's vulnerable. I don't care. I'm gonna cut his head off. Well, at that point, like, we don't really... We're kind of in a very, very different kind of moral situation. It's just as if it's justified in your eyes as the victim. Is it just... Well, is it just... It is? Well, at that point, like, the only justification is just, might makes rights. Exactly, and it doesn't, does it? Sorry? And it doesn't, does it? Well, in that situation, it does. I wouldn't say so. I'd say one of us got to die first. Maybe we should just let each other... See, he dies first, you know what I mean? Really? I'd prefer... Yeah, like, see, he dies first. I think, obviously, ethics and morality, they go out the window when civilization breaks down and there's a zombie apocalypse and things like this. But, like, I just think we allow too much for people to murder animals, actually. We allow a little too much and we say, oh, yeah, it's okay if they're in some situation. But I would say they ought to still respect animal rights. They ought to still have the... The... So you think, like, people... They still still strive to... But, obviously, this in, like, in the far, far north of, let's say, Alaska, there's not actually... They can't really get anything else to eat. Like, well, what else are they going to eat, like, fruit? Well, in the future, let's just say, you know, we have animal rights and we're really trying to change a food system and then people shouldn't live in places that have no way of getting their food other than murdering animals. You know, I think that we should either get food to them or get the people out of there into somewhere where they can get access to food that isn't murdering animals. Because all I would say to you is, would it be justified if you put humans in place of the animals and human beings that are in a place where they can't get plant food are actually enslaving and killing other people? And I would ask you, what would you do in that situation? Well, yeah, I mean, obviously, yes, if it was humans. I mean, I am still saying it, yeah, it's not ideal that they're having to kill seals in Wales. Yeah, you see that there's a more of a... They're in a bit more different circumstance to the average person. So, are you a vegan? Sorry? I agree with the principle of animals. I don't... Wherever I follow a plant-based diet, I do genuinely... I have a thing around, on average, like, one meal that involves meat a day. I do generally... If there is a vegan option, I will have it. That is my... It's something I need to improve on, but that is my... So, you agree with the principle of veganism? I agree, yes. But in practice, you don't follow it, so... In practice, I don't follow a completely plant-based diet, yes. Okay, how do you morally justify not being vegan? Yes, I don't... I am unjustified. I accept I'm unjustified in eating meat. So, why do you do it? Why do you do it? Let's analyze why we do it. Okay, cool. Because it's easy. It's easy. It's convenient. It's easier than it's convenient, and everyone else does it. And I just... I can't... Let's say I lived in India, I'd obviously have... It'd be a lot easier to be a vegetarian in India. It'd be a lot easier for me, or to be a vegan in India. But just in the current... The way things are, if there is meat available, I will sometimes, given the temptation, I'll eat it, yeah. So, you accept it's unjustified, but you put convenience. Convenience, and you put easy... Oh, easy is convenient. You said it... Well, it's basically just convenience argument, isn't it? Oh, no, no. I mean, it's also to be honest, taste. Like, I won't lie, like, a lot of... There is a lot of vegan food that does not taste the best, but... Convenience, taste, and what about habit? Yeah, it's just a habit as well. I mean, it's culture as well. I know you said everyone else does it. Sorry? So, social norm. Social norm. Well, I mean, that just makes... That is basically just like a subset of convenience, isn't it? Social norms allow you to do this for convenience. Because if I had an underground dog boiling basement where I'm torturing dogs and boiling them, and someone found out that you were buying meat, keeping me in business, you were the only one, it's not a social norm. So, you would be chastised by people, wouldn't you? Well, yeah, obviously, people apply double standards to dogs. They apply different standards to dogs that use accounts. Yeah, I agree. So, now, let's just say that the dog tastes really good. Yeah. So, we've got taste. Tastes good. Dog. It's still unjustified. I agree, yeah. Yeah. It's a habit to eat dogs. It's a social norm to eat dogs. Yeah. Well, you'd probably be eating dogs, though, wouldn't you? I probably wouldn't. I'd probably be a lot more intuitively disgusted by that. And I would be by accounts just because it's so normal. Even though it is, I do find intuitively disgusting that accounts are raised in factory farms and killed. And, yeah. So, I would... Obviously, if you did go to the local Sainsbury's in Cambridge and replace all the meat with dogs, then, yeah, I'd be a lot more... I would probably be a lot easier for me to go vegan because I do have a lot... Just based on my own, like I said, proximity to dogs, I would always find that a lot more into, like, just viscerally objectionable than I do account, just because accounts have just been like normal food my entire life. Even though I do accept that, yes, it is disgusting, I would like to stop, but it's just not... It's just difficult. So, I'm trying to find... I'm just trying to find... Because now you've got this line here, like, okay, you wouldn't choose the dog. No, I wouldn't choose the dog. So, what animals here? You've got cows. Yeah, cows, fish, chicken, whatever, yeah. The normal... So, would you avoid pork? Um, pork, I actually really like pork, because that's like a taste thing, but I do sometimes eat pork, yeah. Okay, so you went... Okay, so we've got cows, you can probably have a lamb here and there. On this side here, you've got, basically, all of these animals that are culturally normal to eat. Yes. But you agree, like, let's just put dogs in here, we'll put elephants here. On this side. Let's put monkeys on this side. What other animal would you find morally repulsive to eat? I mean, it... Not morally repulsive, let's do this. An animal that is kind of normal to eat, I don't eat its duck just because it's... Oh, you don't eat duck? It's quite, yeah, it's quite easy to refuse to eat duck, and I just don't, yeah. You don't eat duckies? I don't eat ducks, no. Is it something with something? It's just, I mean, I find eating ducks like intuitively grossly eating cows for some reason. It's just like, I don't know why, it's just something in my psychology. Okay, and then we've got dog, elephants, monkeys, ducks, humans. Yes. So you're in the shop, one side you've got cow, one side you've got human. Yes. Let's go to humans. Okay, cool, yeah. You understand that by buying these products, right, you're essentially creating the demand for... Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'm raising demand for factory farming. I fully admit that, yes. Not even factory farming. I'm just talking about, let's just say it's a free range cow. Okay, cool. A lot of cows in the UK are free range, they go indoors, say, in the winter. But a lot of cows, let's just say it's a free range cow. They go to a slaughterhouse to be bolt gunned in the head and decapitated. Yes. Yeah. So when you purchase this product, you're putting that into demand. Yes. And you're using these justifications, convenience, taste habits. You said it's unjustified, but you still do it. Yeah, I still do it, yes. At what point? So obviously if it was a human being, you can imagine a human being going to be decapitated in the slaughterhouse. You could even say it's a human child or something, just sort of make it sort of equalized to the cow in terms of their consciousness, mentality, intelligence. Yes. You wouldn't purchase that knowing that the human was killed for that, mate? Well, yeah, it would just be a lot more intuitive, easier for me to not buy this human because I would find that immediately viscerally more disgusting than I would if I saw minced beef. But... If it was minced human. If it was minced human, yeah. I would obviously find that intrinsically just more disgusting, partially because I am kind of biased by evolution, which is that I don't I am kind of evolved to see humans as being more being more morally valuable than I am a cow, just as like a brute fact of my psychology. So all of these beings here, right? Like all of these beings here, that are eggs and dairy cows also, they're all sentient beings. Yes. So when you lump them all in together, right? We are all sentient. Yeah, that's true, yes. So basically there's not much difference between a cow and a dog and a chicken. A monkey and a... We all share this. We're all having a subjective experience. Yes. Human beings, we might have a little bit more of a... You know, we can... We got voice boxes. We might have a more abstract the war patterns things. Yes. But if you... But really we are all... What matters is not like whether we're super intelligent because we still protect humans that are not super intelligent. Yes, I agree, yeah. So we're all sentient beings. So you basically, you have a clear double... You know you have a double standard here. I have a double standard. Well, I mean like in terms of my actions, I have a double standard in terms, but I do recognize that it is unjustified no matter the animal. Like I do have a kind of... Like I said, I do act... I am contradictory in the sense that my actions do contradict my beliefs, which I do accept, yes. Yeah, you accept it, but you wouldn't ever... I don't think you would ever purchase chopped up human being from the supermarket, right? Yes. And that's because of society and this and that, but you honestly have an ethical problem with that. Like... I have more of a problem with eating human than I do with eating cow. Throughout civilization... Let's just say throughout civilization there's been cannibalism throughout civilization. Let's just say it become a social norm. It was a social norm to eat humans, right? But then you recognized, hey, I'm actually killing someone who's like me. Yes. Sentient like me. Would you not wake up from that and go, wait a second, I want to participate in a social norm? I mean... Wouldn't you just go, wait a second. Like a vegan has gone, wait a second, I want to participate in a social norm. Yeah. And you would just boycott it. You'd go, I'm not paying for that. That's horrible. But then it would be still pretty difficult though. If I were to be raised in cannibal city and all the meat that's available is human, every single meal I've ever eaten has involved some kind of human product. Let's just say I had to walk an extra five minutes to get the plant-based food. Yeah. And to avoid the human food. Would you do it? Yeah. Yeah. So even that convenience wouldn't stop you from avoiding humans. Human flesh. Yes. I mean, what if it tastes 20% better? If we're talking about like if I've been raised in cannibal city my whole life. And yeah, maybe the convenience might be a little bit of an issue. But obviously if it's- But you've woken up now. You've woken up cannibal city. You're like, oh my god, I'm walking through a f***ing murder section in the supermarket. There's murder in animals. I murdered humans everywhere. What am I doing? You're starting to freak out. Obviously I would be a lot more. Like just the kind of psychological shock of the situation would obviously make me want to walk an extra five minutes to get the chickpeas or whatever. But why aren't you having this shock? Obviously like a cow experiences their life and they're being murdered in the same way that like a human would be. There's not much difference. It's marginal. It's marginal. Like a cow doesn't want to die almost as much as a human doesn't want to die. Especially if you talk about a human child or something like this. Like I don't see how you're getting- I'm going to boycott this. I'm going to walk five minutes from getting this human flesh to- You know what? It's a bit hard to remove from the cow section into the plant based section in the supermarket. So you agree in principle. But I don't think the practical sort of pans out for you. It still seems like it's only like- Think about it. It's probably like a five to ten percent increase in inconvenience for you. We're not talking about a lot because you live in the UK. We've got many apps and many ways to help. There's vegan sections all throughout the supermarket. You know, it's pretty easy. So you're talking about a five to ten percent in inconvenience. Yes. Well, I mean, I think firstly I don't really cook for myself that often. I usually eat in halls because it's just convenience. I'm a student. But generally, if I do see the- Let's say I've got two options. So they've got a kind of vegetable stew on offer and then they have turkey. I'm going to pick the turkey just because- Does it taste better? It tastes better. And also, I don't really- Vegetables shouldn't taste that nice. To turkey, I'm more able to get my macros in more easily and stuff like that. And then I might eat vegetables. You're concerned with macronutrients? I'm concerned about things like protein and stuff. And I do accept on a vegan diet. So a vegan diet is perfectly capable of getting- You're perfectly capable of getting like vegan bodybuilders exist and stuff. But at the same time though, when you go vegan, you have to plan your diet. You have to make sure you're getting things that you'd normally get from meat like B12, iodine, stuff like that. Micronutrients like that. And also- Yeah, there's some health things. Yeah, I like that. Do you track your nutrients and protein at the moment? I do sometimes, yes. You do use chronometers? So how much protein do you get a day? I use chronometers. I used to get like around 130 grams a day, I try to aim for. Not always successful. That's a lot, that's a lot. More than what you would need, I think. But I think that's- I work out a lot, so I need- Okay, that's fine. Okay, if you work out, if you're an athlete, yeah, it's good to shoot for about that. But yeah, you can get that easily on plant-based diet. So obviously not a justification anyway. You don't think that these are justified anyway, but I'm just wondering why they haven't moved your needle to- Like, because the taste, you're talking about like, okay, so vegan food, right? Yeah. When you talk about taste, and you talk about like an animal being decapitated, yeah. You're talking about like a vegan food taste good. I prefer tofu curry to chicken curry. I agree. So there are, there is like, there will, if there is, if I go to let's say, if I go to a restaurant, they've got tofu curry, and they've got chicken curry, I'll pick the tofu curry. Because, but both because I think it's, I actually prefer the taste of tofu. Okay, well, so you're letting, so you're basically thinking, when you're going to eat, you're thinking of your preferences. You're not thinking of morality, it doesn't think like, because you haven't facted reality into it. So you agree with the proven vegan principle, but you haven't facted in morality to your, to your choice there. Like, like I said, it's just difficult when I've got, when you have moral principles to balance that with your kind of, firstly, your kind of more, yours like, based desires to eat meat, because meat tastes good, and your desires too. And I guess also it's a little bit like anxiety. You don't really want to be like, you don't want to be the gut of the vegan on the table. It's a bit, yeah. Okay, so you've got social anxiety here too? I mean, that is a factor. Social anxiety? It really shouldn't be for me, but. Okay, so because you don't seem very anxious, you sat here and talked to me. You seem pretty confident. I mean, I saw like, I saw like, I saw like fit. I do start to have a little bit. You're debating animal rights with me? I know, I know. He was animal rights activist. He was just like, she seemed pretty confident. No, no, no, no, no. I mean, I mean, like, it's just like, I don't want to like conform to like, the stereotype of like the, the long hair. It's like hippy vegan. Well, I mean, you're talking to a vegan of 10 years here, bro. You're talking to someone who's, Anish and who was, I did much of an education. I left education at 14. I was in prison. I had a drug addiction. I wasn't, I didn't have, I didn't have a step up in my, you know, when I first went vegan, I was definitely, had a step down from your average person. You know, so I still managed to do this man. I know this was 10 years ago, 2013. And I didn't live in the UK where veganism was founded and where they have most of the soup fast food places who have vegan options here. And you're talking about in a country that is like one of the easiest places on earth to be vegan by far. The only country that comes close, I think maybe might be Israel, but like the UK. Yeah. So now we've got convenience here. Seems like we should almost strike this off the list. I mean, maybe I would say that you haven't tried. I need, I should probably try to like, because if you tried, maybe you would realize that you didn't have to try it all that hard. Yeah. I mean, it's just like, it's just a matter of find like it being, well, I think if I were to go vegan, I would have to probably start cooking for myself a lot more because I didn't really trust my, I go to the most shit college in this university and the canteen's usually got like one vegan option that's not correct for you. You just recently put on plant-based meals, dude. I did hear about that, yes. So it's convenient. It's convenient. Well, I mean, it's like, you're not waiting for me to say that, are you? That hasn't been like, that hasn't been like. The Cambridge cafes are going full vegan soon. It hasn't been in comments yet. The cafes, yeah, is it? But I mean, does that apply to the colleges though? As well. I think you're working on good, okay. But like, yeah. But you have to walk. I'm Lucy Kev. Let me just, let me just put this into... Okay, cool. Let's do it. Okay. So I'm you. Yeah. You are the cow now. Yes, I'm the cow, yeah. You are going to be decapitated. Yes. And I just used all your excuses that you just delivered to me to do. Yeah. Is, what do you think of that? I obviously think it's unjustified. There's no debate about that, but yeah. It's not justice, is it? Yeah. So you agree with animal rights? Yes, I do. But you oppose animal rights in your practice? Well, yeah, like I said, I do have mental cognitive dissonance in the sense that I do, yeah, I do affirm. Whenever I do get the, whenever I do get the turkey or the chicken, like, yeah, this is, this is kind of up, but at the same time. Does it taste good enough? But at the same time though, it's convenient and tastes good. And it's just like, yeah. So basically, what do you think the animals would care more about the victims here, would care more about whether you say you care about animal rights or whether you actually apply that out in reality? Well, yeah, they obviously like practice only matters, yeah. So then, because they're given the knife in their throat when you demand knives in their throat. Yeah, I agree. Like obviously, like it doesn't really matter what my intentions are, yeah. Yeah, yeah, because I can say I agree with human rights, but then I can go out and just punch people and slay people and be like, you know, but in principle I agree with it, you know, like, and I could eat human burgers and be like, you know. But I think that you've, you've raised a bunch of social cultural things that are the reasons people eat me, actually. I don't think any of them are justified, by the way, but yeah. Well, yeah, I don't think anyone needs to meet out like a genuine like sadism towards animals, yeah. No, but it is, yeah. I think the animals, the victim wouldn't care why you're doing it, really. The victim just wants to be liberated and have some type of protection. Yes. Mm-hmm. Um, your, your demand matters, what you do matters. Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, I would implore you to make maybe a change. All right. Well, I'm, like I said, I am trying, although it, well, although I'm not very successful, I do think I could be, I could definitely be putting in more efforts. You are very smart. Yes. You sat here and held a very high level conversation here with me and you definitely, you can't use, I can't do it because you know how capable you are. There are people in, in situations where they would need a lot more help and some people's countries don't allow for this ease of access to food. So you're in a very, we are in a privileged position here. I agree that I probably could do it very easy, but just I don't want to, I mean another thing that is like, if I'm offered me, I don't want to turn it down. Like if, if I offered you a human burger, would you turn it down? Yes, but that's because like I said, it's just like. What's the trait difference? What, what's the difference? I, I just have like an intuitively more like visceral reaction to that, you know. But ethically why would you, if you didn't have the visceral reaction, so I gave you a, a Xanax or something and you didn't feel that disgust. Yeah. Would you see a moral issue with you accepting the human burger? I would, yes, obviously. Yeah. Yeah. So you would turn down the human burger? Yeah, I would, yeah. So, but you wouldn't turn down the cow burger? You have a problem with turning down a cow burger? I would struggle to turn down the cow burger just because it is so normalized and automatic. So accept the cow burger, yeah. But ethically you would have no issue with accepting the cow burger because you wouldn't want to make it like a social, socially access situation by turning it down. Yes. Hmm. So, so in that regard, you've trumped human emotion over animal rights. Yeah, that's unjustified. So on, yeah, on the, yeah, obviously. Yes. It's like, I don't want to make you feel bad, but I'm going to decapitate this animal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Yeah. I'll, I'll try and put more effort in for you then, yeah. Not for me. For the animals, I know. For the animals, I know. For the cows, I'd say yes. Yeah, for like, oh yeah. But I know I do need to apply. It's something you do when no one's watching, I suppose. Yes. It's up to you because what you do matters in an eminent to cross the world. Yeah. You can be the change you want to see or you can just be part of the problem. It's just like a habit I have to get into of avoiding animal products. That's not that hard because it might seem hard right now, but it's really easy because I would say you're more intelligent than me just holding this conversation and I can tell that you've been, you've got more education, you know. So, but I'm saying I could do it when I just got out of jail, facing addiction, like I had no money addiction and I did it because it was the right thing to do because I was trying to change my life around, I wanted to do better, you know what I mean? So, if I can do it, then you've spoken to me.