 So, hello everyone. For people who are joining late before the announcement, today's class is entirely crowdsourced. By crowdsourced, I mean I don't really have anything to say and you would have to tell me what I have to speak about. If we run out of questions here, we all get back home early, but that never really happened. In any case, if you have a phone or any internet connecting device, please open your browser and go to Slido at slido.com and enter today's date with zero before it, so it's a 0101201012 and once you're in there, this is a chat room that is anonymous. Although I do see people actually identifying themselves like very consistently, we also see very interesting question like this one, which is probably anonymous for a very good reason. So by keeping it up in venue, people can ask very challenging questions using anonymous accounts as well as if you want to identify yourself, so it's an option that everybody can use and if you see a question that you would also like to see me answer, you just press like and the idea is that a question with more like will flow to the top and I will just answer the ones based on the order of the likes here and if you don't have a phone or if you don't have internet connecting device, you have two options. One is that you can ask the people sitting next to you to enter your question for you or you can raise your hand at any given time and maybe not raise your hand just start speaking, it is fine, it's a free flowing conversation and after an hour or so, we will have a 10 or 15 minutes break and afterwards everyone's to 9.30. I hope that's okay with everybody. So Jessica would like to know if today's class could be lectured in a virtual reality environment, we would not have to rush here to sign in in such a poor raining day. It is true, I arrived late myself as a terrible traffic jam and I actually have all the VR gears, the HoloLens, the Oculus, the Vive gear everything in the administration building, so if we had an immersive environment it doesn't even have to be a headset VR, it could just be a 180 projection screen here or three square projectors and people could just watch me having this lecture at the Executive Yuan and the administration and in fact we are setting something like that up already. One of my staff member at the moment is in Tokyo and she's joining in all our meetings using this HoloPolis research project which is HoloPolis.pedis.tw and HoloPolis is basically our current manifesto in innocence that talks about the possibilities of many immersive environments set up in something like this that brings people in many different rooms together and to have a sensible conversation and we already produced a lot of content inside this open-source virtual reality environment. I would like to show you a glimpse of it, it's a very very short film, like this one. So instead of playing the full film, we're still on a draft stage it will be published on the Executive Yuan channel with a social innovation lab at the Taiwan Air Force actually opens with the Prime Minister and so on visiting later this month. But the idea is that we can do a lot of video a lot of meetings a lot of conferences in such an immersive environment and responding instead of just you know a two-dimensional image we can have people modeled as their avatars as you have seen there and have them transition very seamlessly between the recorded environment and the live environment just by audio alone. So we're experimenting with a lot of designers on bringing this kind of conversation in. One part we think this will be very useful is that for example early November we will be visiting Penghu and one of the e-petitions at the time and maybe you have read on the newspaper is about the Marine the Marine National Park called the Four South Islands Marine National Park and there's this very interesting public servant Mr. Xiao Zaiquan there who is actually very vocal on the social media and who is a proponent of banning fishing in that particular Marine Park area. So we need to bring in the perspective of the divers the fissures people and all the people who depend on that Marine Park for their livelihood and so on and for which we think the perspectives of those first-person views is very useful for people who have never visited Penghu. We have already impart something like this as a demonstration back when we did a e-petition case about a two times left turn role Liang Duan Shi Zuo for motorcycles. If people here have rode motorcycles you know that it is a very peculiar role in Taiwan that it's sometimes even in two lane roads you still have to to turn it in a L-shaped turn and many people especially young people would like to have a left hand lane with a direct turn and so on an option of doing that but for people who have never drove a motorcycle it's actually very hard to picture in our head what is it like to have a different options and so on so what during that e-petition one of the petitioners brought with him the virtual reality recording based on a GoPro wide angle camera just weld on his helmet when he tries various different turns and even on highways and so on and they're really improved the discussion quality because even people who have not rode a motorcycle before and now has something substantial to talk about so I think this kind of immersive conversations before we enter a deliberation if we can see from each other's perspective it's actually pretty helpful it doesn't have to take in a very full-fledged asset point of view even this kind of surrounding projection is really helpful already. Charlton would like to know far Eastern Bank was hacked how to avoid being hacked or you can't if you have an internet-facing service you will get hacked period the thing is that who is the first person who hacks you right once we entered the web was I become the digital minister we set up a collaborative workspace so this is literally my workspace and people can see the everything that we've worked on the transcripts and everything now this platform is actually a free software platform we didn't pay anyone anything it's open source is maintained by the community but the Department of Cybersecurity would of course like to know is this secure enough so instead of just you know relying on some some ISO certification or whatever what we did is much more proactive we asked two different teams to try to hack the system so we set it up in the administration we put in some random content we didn't really start using it and then we asked the deaf core people who one of them actually a few of them just won the second place on the international deafcom captured a flag competition and got a audience with President Tsai and the idea is that we asked the best hackers the ones who are most qualified to penetrate such systems to hack us before we even start using it and they did not disappoint they find a very very circumvent way to to get into the system and wrote a very long suggestion and then we fed it back to the community and the community fixed the problem that they have identified and afterwards after deaf core and the other team get you know a second review and audit of those modifications we're now reasonably sure that any hacker you know lower than their skill is probably not going to find a security flaws that intrudes into our day-to-day working system so the point here is to be proactive instead of relying on individual components being individually verified we need to set up a end-to-end system and really ask professional penetration testers so-called white hat hackers to try to give a go at it and give them a long enough time to explore and to try all the different angles and only then can you be reasonably sure that once intrusion happens you can notify and so on there's sufficient depth of prevention and before you get this kind of professional security review there really is no way to be sure just by certifications of it and anonymous person who likes to say if I met in China the tax I want you think the United States of America would protect us I have no idea really this is not my department when I enter the cabinet I have with me a few working conditions during the negotiation with the Prime Minister in China that's fine and mostly there's three working conditions one many of you may maybe know is that I get the option to work from anywhere right I get to telecommute so for example every Wednesday starting from early November I will work in a Taiwan Air Force in Kongzong so that that becomes my mobile office so every Wednesday you can just find me there anybody can find me then talk about such an enterprise and such a innovation I was able to do that because there was a ruling in the Ren Shixin Deng Zong in the HR department that says any public servant who has their job relevant to the internet to respond on internet can actually main at their directors approval may work at any time and at any place and it's a pretty obscure ruling not many people know about this but it's actually there so so when I got the Prime Minister's approval I then apply it to my team as well to be this so that everybody can also work from anywhere from Tokyo or from anywhere so that's my first working condition and my second working condition is that everything that I see is by default okay to be published in the open so in our freedom of information act there is actually one clause that says before a decision is made any draft is not public information you cannot really publish it unless it's for the public interest and with the director's approval and then again I get a Prime Minister saying everything that I see everything that I hear is for the public interest and I can actually publish it without seeking further approval but as a exchange I cannot really look at any confidential information so anything that's stamped secret medium or top secret I can't even look in at it so when there was a drill that I won't drill I actually have to take a day off because I cannot know where the bunkers are and things like that so I really don't know the National Security Council perhaps have a very detailed plot during the drill that all the ministers are supposed to know or whatever but I'm in the ministry that has completely no idea what they have in mind so yeah this is just what it is and a third working condition I would also like to do saying is this idea that instead of using the existing infrastructure for work I get to deploy my own working environment and this means of course introducing secure workplace software such as this instead of the normal system but this also means not just that but also using Slido using real-time board using good notes using all those digital tools to enhance so basically the Prime Minister trust my judgment in bringing all those free software and open source tools as long as they get a sufficient security audit or review that also changes the relationship between us and the vendors because now we're not really reliant on the vendors to procure information systems we become a developer a like a small vendor inside the administration with coders with designers and so on that can create our own information system and deploy it for the general public public servant workforce so for example this EY.pdist.tw it's not really just just with our team actually we have every ministry's people on it because if your email ends with GOV.tw you automatically get an account and you can just use it for for any purpose right so so I think this is really for the entire public service and not just for for our team so we actually have a lot of different shared folders with a lot of different ministries and passports and so on so that's the three written conditions. Hwang Chiming would like to know you encourage civil servants to solve problems of public affairs through internet do you think that it really incons efficiency and does it have side effects well for one if I answer this question I answer not only Hwang Chiming's question but also three other people right so it's it's much more efficient in the sense that I answer essentially four people's questions in one go so a digital tools like this is what we call cheap and cheerful it's cheap meaning that you don't really have to learn a new system just because of it because everything on this platform the typing in the present like and things like that you already know probably from Facebook or from line or from other software so when we introduce tools like this we don't exclude that much people so it's it's cheap but it's cheerful in a sense that it doesn't really take my attention away from you nor your attention away from me instead it serves as a reminder of what the current topic is so it's just that it's not intrusive it doesn't really beat all the time like the line app tend to do right and so it doesn't really interfere with the normal flow of work and when something that stays outside of the flow of the work and enhance the attention the focus of people involved we call this ambient technology or calm technology that comes everybody down so it does incons efficiency but I think more importantly it increases the psychological healthiness of public service so instead of like instant misengers beeping all the time we have this very calm topic indicator here that people can just take a little bit of look and then go back and hear me speak and so on so we try to introduce technologies like this that improves but without taking or excluding anyone does it have side effects well it does I think one of the things that this really creates is this power balance during a long meeting for example we have this quarterly meetings with every ministry's deputy ministry about the open government plan as well as the participation officers in each ministry now without Slido and without any way to anonymously post the comments usually it's just the chair right setting the agenda and nobody really has anything to say and to explicitly cute by the chair but that creates a lot of power imbalance because maybe somebody really have something very good to say but because the chair or her or his minister or deputy minister is speaking about something they're long-winded and they don't really want to interrupt but with Slido they can anonymously interrupt and then provide pertinent information that alerts everybody of what's going on and the people's attention get to focus on the things instead of other people because in public service really we focus on people too much we will try to you know put accountability putting credit and blame and assignment and whatever on people which is great I mean if it's getting done but during the flow of work sometimes we don't really need you know cancellation or resetting of the course we just know a little bit of reminder and in things like this it's too heavy handed if you have to go through the approval process if you have to write a formal email if you have to do anything that's that formal that means it's just like raising your hand to speak it really is a threshold in which people would have to climb over psychologically but by introducing cheap and cheerful technologies like this people get to participate in setting the agenda of what the group thinks what the direction the meeting is heading and generally we find it has the side effect of really making meetings more interesting because people have a say in where the meeting is going instead of just zoning out and not listening and I think it also has another good side effect is that it takes over your phone if your phone is on Slido your phone is not on you know Facebook or line or email or some other apps right so the idea is that it also makes distraction less time consuming free audience involved that's the side effects that we have found so far how can we use new technologies in e-learning like augmented reality virtual reality or mixed reality that's a great question first of all we really need to look at technologies from what we ask of the technology instead of what a technology demands of us right so as a technologist I think when I just look at meetings and I see a problem of people you know zoning out distracting and so on then I introduced to this kind of technology we never introduced technology without a reason so for augmented and virtual reality obviously it solves one of the issues that when people look at power points and look at you know general descriptions without first-hand experience people generally don't know what we're talking about about diving or fishing or riding a motorcycle and to solve this you know first-hand experience issue we can introduce virtual reality and immersive experience for the purpose of informing people in the same room and that's so far one of the more solid way of introducing it also has a good effect in a sense that it requires very little technological intervention in a sense that if you have one 360 camera it's really cheap nowadays it's not even 10,000 K so it's well within the budget of people to just take a 360 recording of whatever they're experiencing and then once you play it in a immersive environment in the AR and VR or just on YouTube or Facebook with this in a rotatable view and so on it really does enhance people's knowledge of them for some experiences now aside from this kind of just informed based use one of the things that we're solving now is whether we can also use it for the output like for two rooms to overlap with each other so if I put on the Holo lens those chairs that's empty gets replaced by avatars of people who are actually at home and then we get to participate in this meeting as one room even though we're physically into our three different rooms at the moment the main technological problem is first it's bandwidth because it's a lot of bandwidth to transmit the body language the finer expressions and so on but also on the viewing experience but those I think can be solved within a year or so do you think that let people talk about policy on the web just as our government pushing currently can make deliberative democracy well no it doesn't really make deliberative democracy but it does enable people to care about policies I think it is one of the cheaper way to get people in mood for deliberative democracy but it's not in itself deliberative democracy because to be deliberative one need to to listen right and online there's too much people who just want to speak want to post things without actually listening and in that kind of environment it's not really deliberative it's a lot of people shouting out their ideas which is really useful in itself already we call it dissent as data meaning that if you go to the joint platform there's really a lot of very interesting petitions going on and within classified as cigarettes as class 2 drug who would have thought about that so within all those petitions we can actually see a lot of people who are out there criticizing specific policy issues nevertheless when we provide this kind of discussion area actually has a very good input on the left-hand side of this environment and for and this is not actually that controversial so let's get some more controversial issues like the nuclear power plant right in here we actually have pretty reasonable discussions both sides and I think one of the reason why people can participate in this kind of dissent as data platform instead of escalating into name calling and shouting at each other is that we designed this forum without the option to reply just as slido is so maybe you can see in slide on really there is no way to reply to somebody else you can just propose your own opinion and it's the same here you can't really if you disagree with this person the only thing you can do is press like or dislike or propose a better counter argument on the other side of the things and just because this very simple design decision people actually compete for consensus on both sides of the aisle instead of attacking each other and this enables us to very quickly get a glance of the top like five comments and get a overview of what the current best arguments are without going into the very lower level of things so again it is using the crowd as the moderation in itself so this is what we call by space design one of the early versions of this website had this bar the green and red bar proportional to the comments being posted so in this example you will go all over here in the 32 would be much shorter but we found that it encouraged spamming behavior where people would just post the same thing again and again just to get your bar longer and this is really meaningless right this is not a useful use of anybody's time so which is why I have requested the design to be exactly in the middle no matter how many comments get posted so some very small details design details like this really has a really large effect on how people turn their descent into data that we can use still is not deliberative we we don't think people generally listen to each other side very deeply on this so for the really deliberative side we actually have to turn to face-to-face meetings and when we run face-to-face meetings like for example lemon car we make sure that it's not just one-sided instead we get all the stakeholders and I think one of the things that often gets overlooked when the public service runs deliberations is that internal stakeholders that is to say all the local governments all the different agencies who have a stake in this kind of agenda setting and one of the points that we try to make is because we have a participation officer in every ministry they only vote the things that they are interested in talking about so if they are not interested in a issue or the opposition case can be under by one ministry alone we don't actually go to this kind of collaborative meetings if they are interested then they have a stake in it and they're much more willing to find people within their ministry or within their agency that actually cares about this kind of issues so I think one of the key points here is that we run those deliberative meetings on Friday or during the parliamentary inquiry session on Wednesday but it's always on a business day and it's always on office hour it's usually from 10 to 2 so for the public service people it also counts as educational hours so so there's really nothing to lose right even you have to travel to Taipei it's just like attending a workshop and although the petitioners really suffers a little bit because they first they have to ask for a leave hour and so on but if they really care about it that much and there's five thousand of them usually we we get three or five of the petitioners so this is especially useful when the petitioner itself is an organized group such as the Gong Dou who like the translator the workers struggle the workers struggle recently proposed on the opposition platform to add back seven days of holidays but not just for the people working as workers but also for everybody including here and people here right so it's an interesting petition that gets thousands of counter signatures but maybe within that five thousand people who countryside for it not everybody agrees with the angle that a worker struggle is going with it so by enlisting assembling from those five thousand people we get a much more multi-angled perspective than the classical public hearing scene where the one group just stands five people or ten people and takes over one side of the conversation so it's not a negotiation it's more like okay we all care about this policy issue let's take a look at it at in every angle possible kind of collaboration and that is the seat of deliberative democracy because that means everybody ends up learning something even if it doesn't really go all the way to your origin of arts that's the basic idea where engine would like to know do you think AI may eventually destroy human beings in the future well that's a very good question well I think I think human beings may destroy itself in the future it really doesn't need my ass help so before we actually have full machine intelligence or artificial intelligence we already have more than sufficient arsenals to destroy ourselves so if it really doesn't take AI to destroy human beings that's that's the first thing the second thing is that the current generation of machine learning of artificial intelligence is actually very limited it is basically there's a rule of thumb that says if anything you can't think or you can do in one second then the current generation of AI can do it so this is a very quick heuristic it's like looking at somebody's face and remembering who that person is AI can do it very well and if you hear a bunch a sentence of English and translate it in your mind to mender that takes less than one second so may I can do it so the idea is that we have a lot of processing in our brain that is very compartmentized and for each compartmentized function that takes human being less than one second currently we have the technology to move it out from our brain to some external way to outsource it but if this is a thought process that requires a synthesized understanding a common sense of things that requires more than one second of serious thought actually if it's deliberative meaning that if you have to deeply think about it that at the moment we actually don't have any evidence that the current generation of AI technology can take over that so even for the best driverless cars that also means that when we're driving we're not thinking very deeply about driving where we're mostly relying on trained instinct and so on for for driving to happen so with the current generation of AI technology I don't think it will destroy human beings by any means it's mostly just an outsourcing of the cognitive functions that we have in our brain now hypothetically of course if we integrate sufficient number of this kind of technology with ourselves then human beings gets upgraded we become bionic meaning that we become some other species that evolves with the machines and this has happened before for example during the early human evolution we discovered this interesting species called wolves and the wolves co-domesticated with humans by co-evolving on the same neural circuit that controls what we call gays so I think humans are dogs are shared the same protocol the same way of looking and following where the other's eyes are looking and bring out a similar emotional experience just by following people's gaze alone and this this is not a trait of very early hominoids and this is not a trait for wolves there's sufficient evidence to support a hypothesis that maybe human beings in communities and dogs co-evolve this as a way to communicate so it's co-domestication it's not just us domesticating the dogs it's also dogs domesticing humans by forming a symbolic relationship so this is very much like the situation with driverless car if there's a driverless car on the road it is like a new species on the road it still has to learn the ways to communicate effectively with humans and also for humans to understand what a signal are and our driving behavior will change because of this kind of new species so there will be a period of co-domestication but there's a limit in which we treat it as something other than us with its own autonomy its own individuality versus it is part of us if we think AI is part of us and we extend the idea or our self to include the the external brain or whatever then essentially it will destroy the idea of human beings because we become some other species but it is not in the literal sense of just killing everybody you know it's basically us merging with our phones or something so that may happen but it doesn't happen in the you know terminator scenario or the Skynet scenario or many other scenario that especially not a matrix scenario Arnaud would like to know do you know what is the actual fact about the satellite? Can the problem be solved? Actually no I don't have more information than you do I also just read from the newspapers about the CMOS calibration about the angles the blurring spas and things like that because CM the digital minister I'm not the minister for science and technology that would be minister with a portfolio so so I'm not overseeing directly the Fuyuhaha team but I'm hoping the best Joyce would like to know do you think HTC so mobile section for developing VR section is a right decision that's a very good question actually tomorrow we'll go in HTC are going to come to my office and talk about this very thing so and as with any other public visits we will make a radically transparent record of every single word that we have said and published it somewhere here right so many of you perhaps already know that ever since I joined the government I record every single meeting that I have met with the interviewers with lobbyists with even internal ones internal meetings and for the external visits the interviewers and so on get 10 days to modify this transcript before it gets published and for the civil servants people get 10 working days which is usually two weeks so because of today's visit is classified as an external visit so within seven calendar days you will see the transcript of my conversation with Google Taiwan's CEO and the HTC team so yeah I look forward to learn more about this question and you will see this question answered in 10 days I currently have no idea but tomorrow I expect to have some idea Jamie would like to ask I believe you must know the mass killing in Las Vegas do you think it has something to do with people nowadays spending too much time on electronic devices no not at all I think it has something to do with other accessibility of rifles I think it's it's really it's easy to to confuse correlation with causation just because people are spending a lot of time online like this doesn't really mean that any incident that happens like this is a causation of that it doesn't really make sense right and from what I know of course it is a deeply contested subject of whether extended exposure to social media like Facebook or so on makes people more lonely or makes people more anti-social and so on but so far I haven't seen any conclusive study that points from here to killing people like this is this farm we have some evidence that says it causes some mild depression we have some evidence that says you know it tends to reinforce conservative ideas about politics it tends to isolate people from people too different from each other this we have pretty solid social science support but from here to killing people no I don't think so I haven't seen any study that points even slightly toward that direction she would like you know do you think how to encourage the younger generation especially the girls to participate in the new technology research such as VR or IT well I think especially for for information technology really the machine doesn't care about your gender or for that matter your age or your race or your height or whatever right so I think that's one of the areas where we really see a lot of participation from from people I just attended last night a conference well a show and tell workshop by the data for social good people and I'm very happy to see that not only the presenters but the communities that they work with are extremely good in a diversity kind of way it's very gendered by the balance and there's existing communities such as the our ladies and so on for data scientists that are just created around the idea that to make girls feel safe and have very easy access to role models and mentors and so on so I think with communities like this this really is the key because when learning a new technology and especially programming programming language is a lot like natural language if you don't have a community to speak you can't really learn this language which is I presume why we have this class right so the idea is that you get to use English in a real world scenario instead of just answering something from the textbooks so the same with computer languages if you don't if you don't have something interesting for you not the social or personal motivation to solve some problem together with a bunch of friends then there's very little motivation to to learn just for the sake of learning it so I think programs like the gov zero or data for social good is very good because there are really people who care about the society very much they care about the pollution they care about the population asymmetry they care about equal access for for over-region indigenous people for new migrants for for equality for digital inclusion for a lot of things and this pairs people who have interesting problems to solve to people who have the skill or want to learn the skill to solve it and so this kind of social innovation and social enterprise arrangements I think are the perfect way for the young people and especially young girls to infuse with the community not just reinforces the skill but also reinforces the idea of the skill for the common good and I think that's the one of the more sure way to encourage the younger generation to get into technology not just to solve their personal problem but also to solve the wider society's problem this this question by me I've kind of already answered the current government agencies use VR for demonstration purposes there are many museums there are many exhibitions at a moment where if you just step into it and put on the glasses and so on it brings you to to don't want where it brings you to some other place that's very far away and basically get people the first time experience and people use that for journalism for reporting as well and this is something that especially local government and agencies are very interested in for cultural or for purpose preservation reasons but VR for what we call social VR or shared reality that still requires some technological and design work so which is what we're working on and where we're looking to have a more collaborative many people in the VR experience maybe in a year or so based on our current research efforts Brian would like to know 99% computers on the market cannot handle the high-end space that you need for true virtual reality experience so should the government spend a lot of money no not at all so by the end of this year or early next year the entry level very good VR experience called Oculus go will be costing maybe $6,090 or so and that's already a very good experience level so what we're seeing is that the price is shrinking like this and there is one key technology in VR code foveated rendering is a technical term it means that like dogs it tracks your gaze in those where your eyes are looking at so once the the headset knows where you're looking at it only need to paint that area with detail and everything else can be blurry and that reduces the use of the CPU and the graphical processing unit to like 110s or something so after the white deployment of this technology any tablet any phone can run VR just fine so I think that's still have a year a year away but we're we're just seeing the device plummeting like this so no I am not I'm certainly not ordering like all the agencies to spend tens of thousands of $80 just to get VR viewing equipment because they're shrinking like this in price but for VR authoring environment of course we need really high-end VR but that's just fine because just like professional movie producing equipments like that one it's okay to be a little bit costly because you only buy it once and you can use it many times so no this is not a very good time to spend a lot of money like giving every child a VR viewing device. Jenny would like to ask can you tell us will VR lead us somewhere in terms of human value it's just a game of fashion finally end up in the middle of nowhere well it will do both certainly I think one of the key here is what we call the shared reality if through VR we get to meet real people in their real habitat sharing their authentic first-hand experience then we get to know each other more and that's just I think a very good use of VR because otherwise it's very hard to step into each other's shoes but if all we are using VR is just for you know in fantasy land and basically just for one cell very exclusive on the rest of humanity first of all I don't think that's very interesting I don't know many people who immerse themselves in VR just for that kind of purpose and second of all you can get that kind of thing much easier just with a you know room of one cell and stockpile with the things they want and with some large screen TVs people already do that and it's much more convenient anyway so I think one of the longer lasting values of VR will be just to transmit first-hand experience whether it's the masters in a vocational skill transferring how to cook how to fix a motorcycle how to do any of those things that requires the whole body or to for educational purposes to transmit to a large number of students what exactly is the teacher thinking and looking for and things like that that the social value I think is the lasting value of VR and everything else is pretty much a gimmick just for for advertisements or stock prices purposes Julia I would like you know would you like to share some thoughts on how to get along with the use for the middle-aged person like me this is a great question I remember from my own experience I call my grandma and my mom like every Sunday and I visit them every month in Danshui all my four grandparents are in Danshui and my oldest grandpa is like 99 years old or something about to turn 110 a few months so all along the way we we try to have all sorts of different conversations and I think if there is you know problems of not getting along it's usually because one side knows too much about something and the other side knows nothing about that thing and because there's no first-hand experience right so and there's no VR so so it is very it's very hard to get into the same thought space because one can say a lot of things but it really means nothing to the other side but what what we have seen in the community for example when Pokemon Go came out what we what we saw is that the grandparents in the community actually get along very well with their grandchildren even and their children just to roam around the park and catching Pokemons and whatever but that's because nobody knows anything about this this is something entirely new nobody has any first experience about capturing Pokemons in the park because the human species have never captured Pokemons in the park right so so that creates a situation where intergenerational in all the different generations have something new to look at but every part of them brings something to the table right they can share their own stories relating to this whole game without getting trapped into okay I know a lot of things but how do I get a message across so I think my suggestion would be simply to find something that you know the young generation and your generation both knows nothing about and then and then just learn learning together or experiment together because then there nobody is in the you know in trench position to talk about something that one knows very well because if you know something too well you tend to use the words that means very little to other people unless you consciously correct your own words about it but if it's something entirely new well there's no problems about that the anonymous would like to know the PSMC's chairperson Morris is about to return next year what do I think about his impact on Taiwan well first I think he is a living proof that you know age is not a concern when it comes to innovation and when it comes to connecting and explaining his thoughts to younger people he is something like 80 something 86 and now and he obviously has no problem at all contributing not just to our board of science and technology into the TSMC but to the general public about what he thinks what books he's reading and things like that so I think it is a really good symbol in the sense that the older aged people can look to Morris and I think well it's the spirit of young and they're really ages not a problem when talking about cutting-edge technology and things like that so that that's one impact by being a living proof and the other thing is that I think he really started out the TSMC's values and communicated really well with the general society so that the same values probably still carries on and still the relationship between TSMC and Taiwan remains pretty stable with their latest investments and their latest recruitment plans and things like that so I think that he really thought about it really carefully and really put out a lot of very to me very sensible plans for his successors to make so I think that's also a idea of your responsibility the idea of how they cooperate what governance person like he obviously is can be as a model to other like both cross-national and national companies when it comes to communicating with the public and the stakeholders involved so I think that's a pretty positive model generally they will lie to us how do you know that our computer systems is secure I don't I know I know many things about the lack of security and security vulnerabilities but I don't know much about proven security there really is no absolute security in any computer systems and that's because it's operated by humans if the computer system is entirely automated then we have some way to mathematically prove the properties of the system so that we know they will not get out of bounds but as long as there is human beings in the system we're very complicated creatures we don't even know what what makes us stick right so there is always the chance through social engineering through a lot of you know human skills to influence people in the system so that the system because insecure because of the operator involved in fact that is how the death court which I mentioned earlier during the penetration testing is finally able to to get into the system the sandstorm system that we have set it's not because the programming did anything wrong it's the administrator during the configuration did something a human mistake so time after time we see that the weakest link is human beings and as long as you have humans in the system you can account for the the accident you can make fallback plans you can make a lot of preventions and so on but there's no 100% security you just need you have a long set of plant bees J from the National Audit Office would like to say this is our latest topic about childcare okay so there's a link and I'm supposed to open it so we open it just that work yeah it works all right so but this is pretty nice it explains the issues really well and there's interestingly a lot of responses I don't really think question seven need to be asked like this 300 yes and no no's and people basically are saying we agree with whatever you're saying well I think it's still good right it builds report and then lets because see you know I agree with it along with 300 other people which is pretty good feeling I guess but but otherwise there's substantial replies and there's very good materials and I think it really I use the DC why the correct if you an example during the monthly and quarterly meeting to our participation officer and my point using see why is a example is that it is harmless it doesn't the ministry tend to think if we put out something for public consultation it must be something very large very controversial that gets a lot of people talking and so on but that's because they mostly look at the petition cases the petition cases are of course controversial because people have been able to mobilize it so that you can actually look at those 5000 people because it's called survivorship bias rather they're really harmless topics doesn't even get the attention to get to five thousand people but that's for that's for the citizen lab petitions for the agency themselves it's entirely okay to have relative harmless topics like this where people can only add to something without you know debating over whether it is actually needed or not and the people still appreciate it I mean if you are a stakeholder and you have a way to improve the how the corrective UN or how the executive union does things well why not it's just as long as they know that they get sufficient attention that the administrator puts in at least the same amount of time to the people who type in those very thoughtful words at the time well then they can tell the other people that they want to contribute especially now the joint platform out of the 23 million people in Taiwan I think about 4 million unique people is using the joint platform so it really captures a lot of attention from the general public of the topic we put on so even if it's relatively regional is relatively harmless we still get some pretty good insights from the public participation Arnold would like to know Zuckerberg apologized yes I see I saw that for FB was used to divide people rather than bring human together how do you comment on this is our world going to be better without a Facebook well in the spirit of radical transparency I have to say I just came off a meeting with Facebook they they visited us in an administration and we were talking about Marx social commitment and I joked saying that so Facebook is now having a solid social mission and of bringing people together in the community values and it's coding it like into the the company's documents that all the employees are required to follow and it's reinvesting a significant amount of its profit to further the social mission and as does that make Facebook a social enterprise and people from Facebook said yeah Marx certainly want to take Facebook toward their direction now whether this is just because this turn is just beginning well we don't really know whether Facebook actually imparts on the social mission or whether you know is what we don't actually know as a fact whether they divide people together is because they're malicious they're bad guys or if they're incompetent meaning that they can't really do things well even if they in the places they should and this is not my harsh words it's their VP when I visit the Facebook he said it himself saying that please attributed to our incompetence rather than our lives for this kind of things and I think this is a pretty healthy attitude for a company to take and actually something that the public service in Taiwan also can learn from there's many times when the public criticizes the additional minister or the public service for not doing things right enough I think I usually just came and said you know thank you for your contribution we know there are limits and it's not for the lack of trying we did try but we're just getting good at it this is especially important given the message about this administration being the administration that is most proficient on communicating so we go to Jennifer we all know that we don't get to a to go to Jennifer without actually communicating quite a few times so usually now I say we're so you go to Jennifer the administration who most would like to communicate but it really takes a lot of practice a lot of training to get to the point where you can communicate authentically and without fearing without uncertainty without doubt when facing demands from random people and the same was with Facebook so but I'm not saying this to their defense or their excuse they really have to come clean about a lot of the different decision they're they're making and a lot of the ways that your systems working before the public can see it as an ally instead of a adversary in democracy so we're still working with them but I'm willing to because I am a optimist myself so so I'm pretty optimistic that we can find someone or some people or some group within Facebook that is willing to work toward this direction and if not well we can work on better alternatives in other private sector partnerships but it is a fact of life that the majority of Taiwan is people is on Facebook in one way or another so I think it is very important for us to have a good direct bi-directional relationship with this leadership what should I would like to know do you feel optimistic or pessimistic about our future relationship with mainland China and do you have any suggestion well as I said I am an optimist and at this very strange condition especially around mainland China I think began when I was 15 or so as some of you know I dropped out of junior high school that year in 1996 because I discovered this thing called World Wide Web and on the World Wide Web there's people who give out their knowledge their papers for free and I saw that those things are like ten years ahead of the textbook that I have in the junior high school or even in universities and I think at that time I really have a hard time going to the principle of the junior high school and say you know the principle I want to drop out but we both know it's mandatory education so you have to tell the Ministry of Education that I am still going to class otherwise I get fined so but the principle actually agreed much to my surprise because she also saw the importance of the World Wide Web and also the free sharing of the knowledge that I try to describe to her and she's very enlightened and she basically agreed I think from that point onwards because I was raised in this community of people freely given their their knowledge their culture their first and experiences and many of them at the time really doesn't care about the location or the country or where the place you're coming from so we all build the internet together regardless of where geographically we are located so I think that the strain condition of optimism was kind of just set around that time so so very factually speaking even after I become the additional Minister I still taught classes in Hangzhou actually I set up a virtual reality classroom with Hangzhou and Wisconsin at the same time and few steps to classrooms together and taught how to do deliberations in virtual reality and I'm also recording a video to talk about Sandstorm to talk about how we run this secure doesn't need internet connection intranet workspace and recording it as a video for the open source community in Chongqing a couple weeks after this so I mean for education for culture for science there really is no no reason to specifically exclude people just because they're from any geographic location now of course I try not to physically travel to China it's a lot of hassle for a minister to do that nowadays if not impossible but I think with virtual reality with telepresence robots and things like that there really is a lot of room for dialogue with people whatever geographic location they are at now all this is my personal opinion I don't really represent the Minister of Foreign Affairs or whatever that but I'm pretty optimistic about the prospect of communication can you share about Christine I would like to know could you share us about the privacy of big data well this is a very big question and I think it's I would say it is very easy for us to think of privacy as a arm or off you have it or you don't have it equation while in reality privacy is a like a gray area any piece about you actually is a kind of a privacy loss in the technical sense but the current privacy going Taiwan at a moment although written and enforced in a pretty clear fashion by the Ministry of Justice doesn't designate one data protection authority to get all the regional governments and all the national ministries the same set of interpretation on the privacy and that causes a kind of split even within the same regional city different burials may think of the privacy impacts of the same data and the same algorithm and interpreted very differently and many of them still haven't caught up on the processing of data for for example for anonymity and things like that so I think what we need at a moment is a baseline of education a baseline of literacy and a baseline of consistency of what actually do we mean by privacy and how do we apply it consistently on the big data issue so the National Development Council actually issued a document to all the agencies saying they are setting up a platform for deliberation data right so the private data deliberation platform within the national council is our attempt before we have a dedicated data protection authority we will eventually get there before we have that we will at least have the interpretation of those privacy issues and loss not be a relationship just between one department sometimes with the stakeholders directly sometimes with the Ministry of Justice we try to have the Minister of Justice interpretations to be widely known widely applicable for the National Development Council to take this interpretation and try to translate it into something that the civil servants can all understand and publish it on a platform where all the different civil service parts have access to so once we have sufficient cases on this platform at least we can start to have intelligent conversation about whether your case looks like this previous case or whether this gets applied consistently so we're not taking power away from the Ministry of Justice for their interpretation of the privacy law but we're trying to streamline it and also make it more publicly known and also make it much more consistent by having all this stakeholder to look at the same set of things on the platform so that's the basic idea there's also another related very technical idea called open algorithms sometimes people get a piece of database say the National Health Insurance database and say you know this very valuable if we just open this up you can create a lot of uses and abuses apparently and previously people also thought it as a either or you have to open the data or you close the data if you close the data you don't get the social good applications when you open the data you're in violation of privacy but that is not a very useful way to think about things so at the moment what we're trying to do is that we're taking the concept open data a part of private data if you see open data is never private data it's something that's just statistics and if you see private data it is not going to be just randomly opened and violating people's privacy instead we're working with the case where we asked the research community what would be a better way to run statistics that will help their research and they publish their algorithm their way to handle the data their programs and then for the deliberation platform and for the agency to look at it and for the data owner for the agency itself to run the code locally and making sure that it doesn't really violate privacy and publish only the statistics that's the output of those data to the research community and so in this way what's open is the algorithm is the code it's not the data the data always stays within the data controller the data owner but it may be run in novel statistical ways if it was widely seen by the research community it's not privacy violating so this is where we're going we're supposed to have a break around this time or it's a lot of fun okay right so do we take a break okay so let's take a 15 minute break and and people are free to just submit more questions during the 15 minutes break thank you thank you mr. 10 we will have 10 we will have 15 minutes break please come back in 15 minutes thank you also remind you if you have post the question on the slide oh calm so please come to our assistant counselor to write on your name and your office if you are late for class please join us at slido.com thank you oh yeah please please I like the microphone will be like video for a while thank you my question is do you think our country can develop AI industry well well great question yes AI is one of the few things that does not require as much as a upfront investment in any given field rather AI requires a cross-discipline work in this regard AI is very much like virtual reality to design a virtual reality not device but experience well you need people who study language you need people who study choreography meaning like the art of theater and dancing you need people who study psychology you need people who study philosophy you need people who study all those very soft skills in order to make a experience that feel immersive and authentic and the same is with AI there are some of course very technical parts with the AI for the semiconductor manufacturing for the sensors for things like that which coincidentally is also Taiwan where Taiwan is very good at right but aside from those very basic hardware part of the AI all the application of AI requires essentially thinking what kind of cognitive functions from our brain is better if we move it outside and give it's its own personality to interact with the rest of the world and this is a very imaginative work this is not some hard work just by one or two people specializing in what given field it requires working much closer to human beings than to machines and I think Taiwan's unique advantage is because we have absolute speech freedom right any time the government tries to pass something even if it touches a little bit about the freedom of speech everybody just goes in opposite so as a result in Asia and I would say in the world where one of the places if not the place with the the most free press and the free thinking really all sort of very unorthodox ideas such as a ministry that advocates for anarchy right so it really is a place with utmost freedom of thought and so because of that we see a lot of people working across disciplines across different fields novel applications of AI so I think that is our unfair advantage when developing AI in the sense that we first have people who specialize in very different fields and we are a collaborative culture where people are now seeing especially people younger than me that are what are used to working together even with complete strangers trusting strangers online to do work which is the other part of AI it's about building a relationship with users even you haven't met them before and basically have the AI trust humanity and for every man you trust back and I think this is something that I want really has a very good culture at that's my mind as any other thoughts yes it's a the emerging preference of the electrical cars will provide a Taiwan a golden chance to outstrip others our company or or I'll have a while to have a chance to surpass other country in the in the sales or manufacturers of cars or cars and also it's the same question is also related to electrical cars what you are opinion if the if in the in the period of the emerge emergence emergence of the electrical cars or where the traditional car company like the master base of EMW will still be developing those outstrips there's a counter pass or or eventually some some Taiwan electrical car company like the Sunderpower and already said the and manufacturers company in the many China we'll have a golden chance to us who are outstrips with their games of EMWs I think yeah electric cars I think well even if not Taiwan branded even if Tesla right many of the core parts are actually innovated and still produced in Taiwan so I think it's a multi layer question right first is within the car industry itself with electric cars and next step was driverless cars obviously we're seeing the car itself becoming as I said already a animal of sorts right that can make its own decisions in many different cases like for example in Tesla in many of the roses already on autopilot and that of course requires a lot of very interesting innovations in peripherals and sensing and so on that how I really has a pretty strong position in so I think it really is a golden opportunity as you put it for innovators in Taiwan's electronic and peripheral space because the car becomes a computer and just like computers car are going to be personalized and to be evolving very different directions and all this provides a golden chance for people who are good at innovating a leg of electronics if not the entire car of course for the form factor of buses like electric buses and things like that we also have pretty good Taiwan teams working on that but I'm not a industry analyst I don't really know if like three years from now in which form factor will Taiwan company thrive in which form factor it will be overtaken I am not I rely on industry analysts to provide me that opinion but I think from where I stand Taiwan is really embracing this kind of opportunities there are many regional governments already like the Taipei City and the Gaussian City and now in Shaolin right people really have go all in demonstrating that electric cars electric scooters electric buses self-driving buses and things like that on the bus lane in the midnight in Taipei right all integrating in one way or another into the regional government I think as somewhere in the national government I think our role is not to point to specific industries and say these things should thrive because we're not better innovators than people in the private sector what we should do is that we should become learners it's like what I said about Pokemon it's the older generation and the younger generation both facing something unexpected surprising that nobody has any experience about which is why next week in the parliament we will be talking about a financial sandbox law that is finally being deliberated by the parliament where we ask people who are into the blockchain into Bitcoin and so on to invent ways new ways to do banking new ways to do insurance and so on to declare their experiments and for the government to work with the private sector innovators for six months or 12 months without putting a fine on them for violating the current regulations now if their experiments prove successful then we will change the regulation because we know the society is ready for it on the other hand if it's unsuccessful the society find it's a bad idea at least it paid the you know expense of research for everybody else so like Thomas Edison the other experimenter will now start from where they failed and make better ideas for the society so in this way instead of being regulators we're now more like co-learners with the private sector of this kind of fintech and if that hast and we see some good experiments we're now looking to apply this also to driverless vehicles it may be drones it may be flying you know quadcopters that carries the shipments right like Amazon or Google is already testing using this kind of drones to carry basically to serve as shipment carriers or as the regional CD are experimenting with electric automated cars in selected regions but the point is that instead of to say you know the entire society need to work with this company or that company we have a company proposing an experiment from their research lab they said you're ready to work with the society and we work on them on a smaller zone and with the regional government support and we look at it for a while and see whether it's a good idea it is a good idea we can change the regulation without fearing the society's rejection because society is already ready for it so I think the whole idea is for the governments to co-create regulation with the private sector and I think once we adopt this then maybe it still takes four years or five years for the electric driverless industry to mature but at least the government will be seen as a fellow as a partner on its way to maturity instead of being blamed sometimes was a very good reason as a blocker to their maturity I think really the public service position is changing in relation to the industry and I think that's my my take so far but thank you that's a really good question any other questions thank you can be certain my question is about AR application and VR application sorry I'm wondering if any VR has been used in medical science or medical treatment are there some doctors use VR to practice their skill and also my another question is a lot of you want how can we treat VR and also artificial intelligence we can treat it as a product or machine or people that's a great question I actually have a ready answer for that in the form of a prayer just just before I entered the cabinet I was in New Zealand at that time and so that that's my my prayer it should come up in a minute or so yeah here so it's basically saying that technology need to be social it need to be working for the social goods instead of demanding the society to work according to technology because that's what we call technocracy meaning the technology dictating how the society need to operate and this is basically almost always leaving people behind so to your second question instead of treating specific technologies as people we can treat them as what we call social objects meaning that it's something around which the society can have a conversation I usually use the metaphor of law for example not many people need to be lawmakers or MPs but we do have professional lawyers professional judges who work on law for a time but much more interestingly and importantly is for everybody in the society to know something about law something about the basic rights and their law something about the equality of treatment the human rights and things like that and gradually have the paralegals have people who know a little bit more to disseminate the knowledge and all the way on the literacy chain all the way to the Supreme Court judges and it is a healthy society if with any technology or law instead of just people knowing nothing about it and a small crop of people knowing too much about it we have this slope where people every place on the ladder can ask people upper level what this really means so it forms a learning relationship so it's the same with artificial intelligence why why why do I consider AI something that is code domesticating the human society it's because algorithm or code is really not something that's magical but just like law many people at the moment think it's something that's very hard to understand but the basic concepts are really simple so which is why we're integrating this literacy into the new K-12 curriculum for the primary and secondary education level because we think only with the idea of people knowing something and knowing people who know a little bit more can we treat this as a social object that the whole society can have an intelligent conversation on and also use sometimes the metaphor of fire because fire was one of the original technologies right it was invented to solve also instead of taking part of our brain cognitive function out it's taking something from our stomach our digestive function right it breaks food down to smaller molecules it makes people healthier because instead of just digesting one meal at a time you can cook many meal and then you know get those foods moved instead of having to finish it off one meal and but fire is also very dangerous if in a society only a few people know how to use fire everybody can misuse fire and destroy a whole series really it's a dangerous technology but instead of saying you know we have to put protections around fire we built a culture where we learn to cook basically to use fire very early on and along with it the cautionary tales about fire and so on ever since when we were children so I think to have a general literacy about AI and about related technologies is important but even more important is the society stays at a place where there's always unafraid of asking somebody who knows just a little bit more than you and to get a supportive group so this is what we mean by collaborative learning and about the human experience instead of user experience and so where people think the technology is leading the humanity to one single destination I always try to remind people that we actually each of us is a different dimension on a possible future and this is what we mean by plurality is basically meaning we treat all those new technologies just as excuses for us to know each other more and I think that's a much more healthier attitude and we're facing with new technology and medically I might add instead of just surgeons and so on there's psychological uses as well I think it's called wise money or something it's one of those ER companies that's started by I think someone from Taiwan as well and it's basically doing therapy for people who are paralyzed for example from the waist down or from the left side or whatever and so say if you suffer from a slight I don't know struggle whatever that disabled one side of the body and I tried it myself in VR it's basically putting on the helmet and asking you to use your right hand side to manipulate those objects but in the VR on the mirror mode you see your left hand moving and then once I do that I feel it single in my left hand because it's the brain trying to rebuild the neural pathway to the now disabled a left hand and they've been working pretty well with the hospitals and so on to try to make this to not just fighting paralyzation but also depression and other mental or what we call somatic as well as psychological issues and so that's one of the things that really only can be done in VR because otherwise you can't convince a person's brain that their left hand or their feet paralyzed is now working well and for the brain to rebuild the neural pathways so I think that's also one of very promising uses for medical technology in VR any other thoughts there's two excuse me as we know if we take airplane frequently it will suffer more radiant explosion and if we use AI in a wrong way such as hacker it will be it will be risk for human and is it possible that we use we use VR in the wrong way and brain risk for human and how long is it safe for human to wear VR device and is it possible to suffer powerful element by wearing VR device VR actually was invented many many years ago I think it was already available in the 80s and the main reason why it did not get popular was exactly as you said it's called VR sickness people use VR for a while and then they feel that their body is not moving with what the brain thinks they are in and the people guess they're really sick so one of the reason why VR is taking off right now is because there's some very fundamental theoretical problems that's being solved to make people feel better but it was a current generation of technology usually we just sit on a chair preferably a rotating chair and without moving too much and if you are moving the VR world but not in the real world it helps in the VR world to paint a car or some other vehicle so that the brain doesn't feel it is connectedness and the other thing is that sometime it helps to paint a nose in the VR that if you look down you see your nose instead of nothing which also tend to make some people feel sick there's some very interesting research going on the safe uses of VR but usually we don't use it like for stepping into each other's shoes or for store first experience we don't use it for more than at most half an hour and at that point and without a lot of moving we consider it generally safe but if inside VR at any point you feel you know as well or so on just take the helmet off it's not worth it to ruin your own experience in VR because then afterwards you will tend to associate this bad VR feeling with the VR experience so I think this health hazard really is one of the issues why VR hasn't taken off like completely at the moment and it's also why for production use of like face to face meeting and so on mixed reality classes where you still see the classroom but with additional people right so that's kind of idea like what we call that in young I here right instead of one going I don't even know how to translate that like visiting the afterworld yeah so so basically as long as you still have some connection to reality that actually makes the sickness situation much better which is also why personally I insist in VR only visit or to have experiences that I conceivably can also have in reality so it's okay to put on helmet and go to the moon because physically it's possible for me to go to the moon it's okay to put on my then visit some remote island like home or whatever because physically it's okay for me to go there it's just much more expensive but I draw the line at not actually go to somewhere that's entirely imagined that has no connection to reality but that's my personal view I am not trying to enforce it to any other people and there was a question my question is how to read out the education of AI or in preschool or for children and the other question is how to understand what is so-called the system of democracy is very easy thank you sir sorry but I didn't quite get the first is that how to make AI education more accessible for students okay and second was about really didn't quite get that the system of democratic deliberation easily that's the word that I missed okay so for preschool children I think one of the easiest way to get some idea of how how AI works is through toys really through interactive forms there's a generation of young people at the moment brought up with Siri which I also work with when I work with Apple and it gives a pretty good idea of what the limitation as well as the inner workings of AI the children growing up with Siri very quickly discovered that it's not human but but then it's not stupid either it's a different kind of intelligence that knows a lot of factual things but pretty shallow about anything that requires long-term thinking basically the one-second rule so this kind of first-hand experience with a agent of course helps the other thing that I would recommend if one is interested in working AI in a visual perspective is a lot of visualization courses there's many different visualization courses that is done by various AI teams that tries to make the inner working of the AI very easily explained by people to to understand it I don't really have time to go into the detail but the idea is that people can much easier understand AI if one first has a direct training experience with it and then flip to its inner working and see how it works so there is a experiment which I think is really helpful called teachable machine and so it uses a analogy where the AI is like a student and then you are a teacher and you can teach the student to pick the right color like red or green or yellow by you using your webcam on the front of the camera making faces like when you're smiling it's green when you're pouting it's red or something it only takes like five minutes or so but it takes the idea of reinforcement learning and supervised learning and so on those very basic aspect of AI in a very quick way so if you have a laptop or desktop computer I would encourage you to play this game and very quickly get an idea of how like AI training actually works in a very easy way the second question was about how to easily learn the basic idea of deliberative democracy well first really it's like programming the only way to really understand it is to participate in one but to participate in one doesn't really take much it just take a bunch of time a bunch of people with different viewing angles and a facilitator who can capture people's ideas and draw them somewhere I usually play a very quick like two and a half minutes film at this point so we may as well deal with now can I play films here oh I actually can I just need the microphone set up so here we go it's called shawarma and it illustrates the basic elements you need to set up in order to have a deliberative meeting and let's go with it and it's a petition case an actual case on the e-petition platform somebody actually petitioned it but the national development council kind of just rejected it but we brought it back and make a film out of it I don't want you to know what we're going to be talking about today is a small one I don't want you to know what we're going to be talking about today is a small one Then it will then meet all the客铭 Hi everyone, I'm Di An Hi everybody, I'm the BTT 프로的空母 Qi Ling Hello everyone, I'm Qi Ling I'm very into selling There is a problem here. We have already said that it is his first solution. Do you want to increase it? Actually, there is also a contribution to the development of this project. The future will be strengthened in the promotion of this project. Do you want to re-enact it? You can actually do it. Do you think it will be possible to re-enact it? If there is really a kind of non-smoking thing, if there is a kind of non-smoking thing, if there is a kind of non-smoking thing, is there enough to protect this kind of non-smoking thing? Today, we will discuss the issue of non-smoking. So we can prepare for it. So, under the assistance of all of you, we are actually very happy that we have been able to learn about the benefits of non-smoking. If we discuss these problems together with you, then we will also be able to solve these problems with the help of the public. Today, we will be able to re-enact the problem of non-smoking. Today, we will be able to re-enact the problem of non-smoking. So, when we will be able to re-enact the problem of non-smoking, then we can discuss it very well. Thank you. So that's the basic elements of the deliberation that we run practically every Friday up to this point. We've run 20-something collaboration meetings now. And collaboration here is different from cooperation here. In a sense that in a cooperation, usually people need to know each other first, and then we work on something. But collaboration means people who have never met before. And then, nevertheless, work on something that everybody can live with. So, maybe nobody is perfectly happy with the result, but everybody has learned something and contributed something that they can bring back to the wider community. And for those cases, actually the car, the Taiwan NCAP, is actually now a national policy. It wasn't like that when the petition was first proposed. The long-term project management bill is also now something that NDC is very actively working with the petitioner community. The atropine is actually now being manufactured in Taiwan. So, we really did something. And for the text filing software, oh, and the fifth one, the ACE class about the junior high schools and the senior high schools is actually ruled by the Ministry of Education that the school cannot force the students to go there on the ACE class. And so, the seventh, actually, the petitioners know much more about the design of experience of filing text on a Mac or on non-Windows computers than we do. So, we end up working with them for like five different workshops and finally redesigning the text filing system for next year. We will actually have a much better text filing software. So, the whole point is that instead of seeing people who have something to protest as mobs or as people who don't understand policy, we see them as collaborators, like the idea is that for us to translate the policy into something they understand, but we trust them to bring something to the table that we don't understand. We get to learn about this together. So, this is how we do things. The whole methodology and so on is documented in po.pdc.tw which is this book that we give for all the POs and let them know how exactly to run this kind of meetings. So, yeah, feel free to consult po.pdc.tw for the methodology and stuff. Any other questions? Yes. The question is, the mayor of the Pacific City government, Mr. Kerl, he said that if you give the parameters, you just can hire the non-prisoners. Do you think whether the salary of our primary servant is reasonable or not? Thank you. That's a great question. I think he said that in the context of the director of the department of information technology, right, DOIT, Dr. Lee, and I think at the time here, you really, I would say, really put this comparison kind of out of context because for us, for people who specialize in IT to work in the government, including me, I'm taking like one-third of the salary that I get to get as a consultant. So, for us it's all a massive reduction in payment. But on the other hand, what we get paid is impact, right? When I work with Apple, of course, my thoughts, my inventions and whatever, they do get impact, but it's not direct, right? We invent something. It gets adopted maybe by the market, maybe many years afterwards with a lot of different adjustments and iterations. But when working in public service or public policy, you get to using these kind of collaborative methods, meet with stakeholders and really solve their problem through direct way. There really is nothing that prevents you from solving their problem when you're working in a public service. And so this kind of social impact, I think, is what draws people like me from the IT world to the public service. We're not in it for money. If we're in it for money, we'll never be here, right? So I think sometimes paying to put salaries or comparison or whatever really isn't a very good indicator. What I think is a good indicator is working condition, is work satisfaction and so on. And to be fair, my parents were very worried when I entered the cabinet because they thought a minister's working condition is really, really bad because the MPs, the media and so on, the people don't really give the ministers a break, right? Anything that we do is kind of magnified by the media for everybody to see. But even in this kind of environment, still I count myself as a friend with the media because I have all those meetings transcribed and I videotape pretty much everything and so on. So the media all have a lot of raw material to work with and they learn to build on each other's work instead of trying to get exclusive interviews. And once I change the media relationship like this, generally I think the media really gives me a pretty good working condition and generally trust the words I say. And when they occasionally get my messages wrong, well, I just go to the discussion board under their web page and just put a reply there myself, right? So I think this kind of bidirectional trust with the media, with the civil society, with the stakeholders is the key to make our own working condition better because then people tend not to mistrust you but think, okay, although you're working in the government, you're still speaking human language, right? So I think this is something that really improves the human condition for me personally and also for all the public, certainly you're stalling the film, who are seen by the petitioners as really friends who solve their problems, who teach them something, who bring their vague ideas into actually working policy ideas. So instead of the leadership getting all the credit, the hard work in public service through collaboration also get a lot of credit by the people who participate in this kind of collaborative meetings. So I think these are the kind of spiritual, I would even say cultural rewards that we get by working in the public service instead of bananas, instead of salaries and money and whatever. So I think for recruitment, especially now after the pension reform, we need to focus on how this amplifies the impact and amplifies the whole working condition and appeal for people's basically altruistic charitable impulse to work in the public service. I really believe that. Other questions? Yes. Maybe it's cherry or I enjoy your English speech so much. I feel so honored to have this opportunity to listen to your wonderful English speech tonight. I have two questions about your private thinking. Have you ever feel sad during your life? Would you please share with us? Sorry, have I ever felt sadness? Or was that the emotion you describe? My English is so poor. I don't know how to say. Sorry. It's okay. So did I ever feel what? It's okay, take your time. I see you every time I show you. I think you are a happy man. I think your professional field is so, it's famous for us. I'm curious about your private thinking. So I want to know, have you ever feel sad during your life? How would you deal with your sadness? Sadness? Yes. Sorry. But you had two questions. So what was the second question? The first question is, have you ever feel sad? How to deal with it? Yes. Sorry. That's great. That's great. That's two questions in one sentence. Yeah, I actually also had a video about it. I had a video about everything. Just a second. Let's see if I can find it. Okay. So yeah, when I was eight years old, I was really, really sad. I actually cry every day and refuse to go to school because there's a lot of bullying going on and I was bullied pretty hard at school and such that I quit school at the second semester. And I actually haven't left in maybe the next two years after that until I was 10 years old or something. So I was very depressed for two years. But on the other hand, I think that really gives me some perspective and which is what this video is about. So let's play it. Yes. Maybe I was hit or broken. Before that, I felt that the world was somehow like this. But because of this kind of trauma, in fact, your soul has to get to some places that you didn't get to before. After that, if you come back, the process of coming back and you meet other suffering friends in the future, even if you have completely different reasons to suffer, you have completely different reasons to suffer, you have increased the ability to communicate with them. You're not just thinking, oh, this person is so pitiful. Instead, you have some experiences that you've experienced and you can share how you came out and then you can also talk to him and talk about what his situation is and what's different about you. It's like you're in the same feeling, but everyone has different ways to come out. But this method is to give him a name in all the different feelings in this process. When you come back, the most important thing is that you can think back and say, what was the feeling when you were a few years old? As long as you can feel a name, slowly, slowly, you can use these names to help other friends. So I think this is what's important when you grow up. At any time, if you have a feeling like this, of course, first of all, don't blow up your computer. The computer is very expensive. But in addition to this, don't replace it as a tool for people. Instead, you can listen to music or prepare tea, calm down your mind and then you can choose something to interact with. What's important here is that when you come back, in the future, when you remember such a word or such a formula, you can even think of very comfortable music. So the same words won't make you blow up your computer. This feeling will appear one time. So I think slowly, slowly, I can say that no matter what word I see on the Internet, I think they are all pretty good. So this is really basic psychology. But if you keep practicing it, you actually get very good at feeling happy. Because whenever you saw any words, any personal attacks, any bad news or whatever, that makes you feel sad. You can stay a little bit distance from it and then take a break and then to get some tea, put on some music and whatever. And now your brain is now conditioned to associate with this with some good feeling. So the next time, you become calm. Relaxed feeling. And so the next time you see the same words, you see the same situation. You become calm and can process it without much fear. And I think really anytime people feel sad or sad it is a signal that body is sending you. It's about time to take a break. It's about time to sit from a distance, watch the situation and come to terms. Understand what things are like. And so it is actually a luxury in many people's lives to take such an extended break like this. But in my own experience it gets better once you practice. When I was like eight years old or nine years old, I used to have to take the entire day just to get a perspective of what my emotions are. But now it's maybe just five minutes or so and you can get into this really relaxed state. So it gets better with practice and VR incidentally also helps in a VR world when I put on the goggles and go to the moon and look at the earth from the moon. Suddenly it's, you know, there's no geographic boundaries. Everything seems so small and so trivial. And so it's like watching at yourself but from a large distance away to help a VR instead of five minutes maybe I will just take, you know, five seconds to get into a state of a proper distance from the emotion. So basically just take a break when your body tells you to because if you delay too much then that feeling becomes a trauma. But once you have a trauma it's also important to put every state of trauma put a name on it so that once you get out it's like walking out of a maze or a labyrinth. You still remember the part of it. And the thing as I said in the video is that you can then use this knowledge this wisdom really to help people who are trapped in similar pathways in the labyrinth. I hope that helps. Yeah. There's one there and there's one here. So two more questions then we will go back to slide up. According to today's news the Fair Trade Commission imposed five approximately 33.4 billion of outcome. How do you think about this decision and its possible impact? I have no idea. I just learned it from the news also. I haven't talked to the analysts nor the Fair Trade Commission about it. So at this point I know exactly the same as you. I just know of the ruling and I intend on reading it but I currently don't even know the reason why it gets fine. I just read it on the news a couple of hours ago. So sorry that I can't provide more and more answer but I think it's generally a pretty good idea for the society to have a discussion like this in public instead of treating it as something so when I look at the media's angle on it I'm actually pretty happy with the media's coverage. People generally analyze it from the mainstream news not as a us versus them but an actual portrayal of Qualcomm's income, this market conditions and so on. So I'm pretty happy with the media's treatment on that but I haven't read up very deeply on this. Sorry about that. So there was a question here. My question is so short. First, are you a hiker? Yes. If hikers were legally encouraged to do something for the government what's your point of view? Sure. I mean a hiker in its original sense is just somebody who is very good and immerse themselves into a field. So if one say is a legal hacker or a law hacker somebody is really really good at very fine details of the law somebody may say they're a physics hacker or chemistry hacker or a and so on but nowadays we associate hacker with cybersecurity hacker and it is of course also a valid use of the term hacker because to be a cybersecurity hacker means that you immerse yourself with the domain of knowledge of cybersecurity and you know the system so well you see what's wrong with the system and the weakness in the system and how to use the weakness. Now in a hacker, a cybersecurity hacker scene, there's so called white hat hacker which I already referred to. We hired those white hat hackers to work on our system and let us know where it's vulnerable. There's also black hackers who are generally people who are selfish and use those weakness for their own personal benefit instead for the social good. But I'm not actually a cybersecurity hacker. I understand basic cybersecurity but I'm not that good to call myself or to be called by the cybersecurity community as a community as the cybersecurity hacker. I am however a hacker in its original sense in the sense that I when I go into the public service system I tend to see the public service system as a system of communications and how it's hierarchical organization, how it's communicating with the outside, how the inside is collaborating or not collaborating for the matter across agencies and so on. So I see that as a system of public administration. But because I'm not a black hat or a white hat hacker I'm not trying to repair the system and I'm not trying to exploit the system for my own gain. What I'm doing is I'm trying to create a new system, a parallel system that works with the government but it's not work inside the government. It's basically a new communication methodology for the government to communicate with the people, with the cybersecurity that is based not on top down or bottom up which is very hierarchical peer-to-peer governance. So this is the system I'm trying to create along with the help of people in front of the public service in the cyber space that it really has nothing to do with cybersecurity except in so far that we depend on a secure system as our technological fundamentals to run those systems. So I think Dr. Tseng-wen, our president said no matter which field the hacker is, there's one commonality. Hackers like free sharing of information and dislike hierarchical systems where people have to listen to somebody else without a very good reason. So I think what I'm trying to bring to the public service is just for the public service to treat the citizens as equals. And I think that's the main contribution I can make but I also understand that this belief or this system may not work for cases like the Ministry of Defense or the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in some parts, right, and so on. So I'm not trying to blindly say, you know, everybody be friends and we know the real world doesn't work like this but for specific cases like the ones I show in the film it is possible for all the stakeholders to be friends at the end of it. So that's my contribution as a hacker to try to not use hierarchies when it doesn't make sense. I hope that has your question. All right. Well, there's many more questions. So how do we balance let's see. Why don't I just handle the questions that more than one likes here like quickly and then we go back to the okay. And I will be quick. So Eddie asks, is Facebook really more effective for more likes? No. If you want to get your messages across, the metric to look at is the metric of shares. That's the primary indicator and then comments and then likes. Likes really doesn't mean much, right? But how to make a message go viral meaning that people want to share it. It all depends on whether in the initial six seconds you can engage them emotionally and let them think, oh this has something to do with me. And that's the basis of the message. So that's the basic idea to get people sharing your message. Is long distance learning better than traditional class or not? I think it's not either or. Long distance learning is great if you need time for yourself to absorb the message. For example, someone who founded Khan Academy, said he tried to teach his cousin's mathematics, but his cousin prefers the YouTube version of his teaching because in real life they cannot pause or rewind their cousin. But with their recording they can pause and rewind many times over. So for that kind of knowledge transfer, obviously long distance is much better because they can learn at their own pace. But if they want to create something together as a team, then at some point face-to-face team building will be useful or virtual reality face-to-face team building will be useful. So there is a time for collaboration and there is a time for long distance collaboration. Many young people complain about low salary, but they're not working harder or learning more. How can we help them? Well, for one maybe in many fields it doesn't really pay to work harder because the really difficult hard work, like manual work and some redundant work, is more and more being automated. So for young people it actually pays more to work smarter and try to offload the work, crowdsource the work or have the machine do the work. But all this requires learning. For me, I think what really for an adult is to learn together with the young people. As I said in the Pokémon case, whenever there is something new and they don't feel alone in exploring and learning when they feel there is someone who learns alongside them to explore different angles of looking at the same thing, that encourages learning very much so. And also because if one is learning alone it's very hard to make a commitment to oneself that we follow a day by day, but when we have people along the way, then anytime I slide over something you can remind me by just working on this some more. So to have the same direction and learn together I think that is the most effective way. Do you think there is little international news on TV in Taiwan and how to solve it? I think one of the least qualified person because for more than 10 years I have not watched TV. I don't even know what the TV is playing at the moment or a few years ago. I have completely tuned out of TV so I am not qualified to answer this question. I get all my news from my friends, from curated internal websites like Hacker News and so on by people sharing interesting information and having a conversation about it. For me internet is this large conversation where I can join any time and TV being very one-directional and I cannot have a conversation with people in the screen. For me this really doesn't work as a medium of learning so I really don't know. And for that matter, the people I have a conversation with are pretty international in nature. Most of my best friends are not in Taiwan so I really don't have a good perspective to answer that question. I'm sorry. Yubana would like to know how to use communication at this point most as a point to inform the participants. But in the next maybe one year or two years also as a way to communicate over long distance. So it's pretty practical. I really use it every time. Tan Yen said what about soft skill? This is actually a great question. I'm afraid I don't have a lot of time to go into the details but I found that in VR it's very easy to take somebody else's point of view. And this is great for management purposes. If you can see a situation from every participant's point of view, it builds a kind of emotional bound, binding to everybody in the room by seeing the same situation but from different perspectives. And this kind of empathy I think is the core of soft skill. And VR really helps to do this kind of skill. Do you think the government's infrastructure plan is a good plan? What's your opinion for this plan? I reviewed part of the digital part of the infrastructure plan. I have no involvement in the other parts. I think the communication really could have done better during the initial phase of planning. But afterwards we did get some frequently asked questions and so on. There's a website for that at www.pdist.tv. And I think the communication strategy around this Q&A system is one of the main things that I learned because all the different ministries can use this system to collaboratively answer questions that they had to answer individually to each and every MP. But now with this system they can just answer it once and have it quoted everywhere online on the internet and so on. And so I think this is one of the lessons we learned is that the earlier the better and the initial version of this used very professional language. But we have learned that if you have a frequently asked question it's best to just have the people on the streets language as the questions because that creates the relation for them to feel, oh yes I asked that and then they will want to click through and to read what we have to say on this regard. So it's called infra.pdist.tv that's one of the projects that we have worked on during the infrastructure planning period. What's the next core industry of Taiwan? I expect to be surprised. As I said the whole point of having the sandbox laws and so on is to have innovations happen without us predicting it. So I expect to be surprised by people who feel entirely different fields together to create new fields or to invent things that beyond our imaginations and become Taiwan's next core industry. We're not in a position to point at a private sector and say hey you become the next core industry. We do know of course that Taiwan needs something to solve the aging population issue, to solve the energy issue, to solve a lot of environmental issues and so on but that is the core opportunities as of what industry actually solved these issues better we're open to the private sector and the civil society to decide. According to your experience what's the biggest difference between the private enterprise and working in the governmental sectors? Well, I think I feel liberated by not having to think about my employer's profit and the social good in the same time. When I work in the private sector I of course work with companies who have a very solid corporate social responsibility plan, a social mission event and so on but still it is a balance between the profit motive and the social good motive even for the best social enterprises. But now in the public sector it's entirely for the social good. So all my behaviors for example when I work in the private sector I abandon all my copyright and allow people to just freely use my work because I want my work to be in the commons for people to use but for my employers this seems very strange. But now I'm in the public service this is the default. Everybody expect the government agencies to allow the people to use our work and so I think culturally it is a much better fit for me anyway to work in the public service. So we did actually discuss about the harmfulness. I have no idea about the North Korea and the USA situation. I do know that it doesn't seem to be escalating too much if you just look at the social media but again if there is confidential information I really don't have access to it. I just you know as you are read from the internet news. So what about the harmful like the AI robots designed to be a killing machine who can stop it other killing machines obviously and if it is designed to be a safe partner can it get married is of a great impact agrees of a great impact and again I think as long as the whole society have a first hand or second hand experience about it we can come to a collective conclusion of what is society to do with new technology. It's not the point for the ministry to decide but for the ministry to make sure the society have a informed discussion. Can you introduce how do you Slido.com? It's actually really simple just go to Slido.com and then click this new create event is a green button the plus here and then sign in with your Gmail account or whatever and then pick a date so that's it it's really this simple and it's free of charge for the matter so I think it's really easy just to choose a date to enter an event name and then now you have an event where you can share with your audience it's really easy I have no experience about television sorry about that so depriving human jobs so this is one of the core questions people are asking about AI and all this depends on how democratic AI is if everybody including students have access to fast internet and AI technology it will be used to enrich to improve their working condition of everybody but on the other hand if it's not open and it's only controlled by a small amount of people and many people don't have connection either in internet or in technology then it will be used as a way to essentially enhance slavery and in Taiwan I think we're one of the very fortunate places where we get to say internet is a basic human right and even have the infrastructure plan pay for the last few percentage of people who don't have broadband access and who have access to AI computing so I really think we are one of the places who can really democratize AI and see its effect on society as a whole instead of concentrating on one or two people learning code is better according to Tim Cook than learning English is the second language but I think a lot of the code is in English anyway so this is kind of a good point if you learn programming language you will pick up English along the way so I think maybe it's because of that that Tim Cook says it I think it is a good excuse to learn English as an excuse on the topic of languages do you think we should pay attention to the proportion of vernacular speech and classical text on our children's textbooks I used to work in the curriculum development committee actually of K-12 on this very regard and because of radical transparency everything I said about this matter when we're debating it is online the only thing I said about this is that I think when Yan actually doesn't have to mean classical Wu Tian it just means something that cannot be pronounced is right written only language and I think a lot of the symbols at this point of the emojis like this or whatever are actually right only language that are not expected to be pronounced so I think they are when Yan in today's state and I do think they should count toward the curriculum to elicit students interest my suggestion I think did not make it to the curriculum but it is the only thing that I've ever said about this particular topic white juker is not as popular as line that makes me feel upset well I'm sorry maybe you would like to put on some music and some tea but at the end this is about user experience it's about the design whether it makes people feel comfortable, safe and happy using it really now for all the shortcoming of line it really is a better experience than juker have used both extensively so if juker works on user experience at some point maybe it will get people migrating from line but that's really the core issue here it is not something that government can point and say it really needs a proper number of designers to make the user experience better we did talk about VR technology and about the global and localization at the same time there really is no difference of global and local once you are in the open source community in the internet community in the commons so I think it really requires a change of perspective like even people who are very physically far away get to be felt like neighbors in this kind of community I would encourage people to participate in perhaps the wikipedia community or many of those international communities that embodies I think the spirit of globalization how do you think about the policy of labor leave I have no idea about the policy of labor leave I do think then when I talk deliberated the national travel card the issue the name of the national travel car really in my personal opinion need to be better described as a forced taking labor leave and partially compensating for either specific purpose card but I think that particular poll did not really go over 50% among all public servants so we are still calling it national travel card next year but maybe with some organized work we can improve the experience of using the national travel card what kind of jobs will be replaced by AI in the future basically all the jobs that humans don't want to do that's the answer because as human beings sometimes we take pride we find joy in our creative work and sometimes we feel like machines just doing the work other people require us to do and for those work for those what we call machine this kind of people you can't really compete with real machines doing chores like this right so others will eventually get automated somehow so about safety there is a if you want to read out on it it's called value alignment problem how do we make sure that this new intelligence is aligned with us on the values but in order to work on value alignment we need to be very sure about our own values first we need to put into words the ethical concerns that we have for each other so it is an ongoing discussion but I think we are making critical progress on solving this problem what about the agriculture about speeding up the process of informative environment in agriculture I think in a lot of agriculture communities at the moment they really use internet for a very good effect from sharing how to use drones to take care of crop fields how to do selections how to do logistics how to make it a second level processing instead of just the primary level and so on we see a lot of communities by social enterprises and co-ops and so on working in agriculture so I think they really already have pretty good information knowledge communities but I think for the older people or people who are more separated from the information communities this is why I tour around Taiwan really every two weeks to all the different corners in Taiwan to work with social enterprises to try to get the latest social innovations anywhere in the world into the social enterprises that take care of agricultural communities in Taiwan that's part of my work as minister taking care of social enterprise policies there's no auditor for the ministry of audits how do we make sure that ministry to work there in the right manner I have no idea I work in executive union I'm not working in a corrective union I have no idea how the auditing system itself is audited so if you have suggestions I would encourage you to come to the CY join platform and let the people on the join platform now I'm sure there is one topic somewhere where you can propose suggestions or ask questions but no matter how do you think do you think AI will replace mankind to take care of the elderly in the future certainly you will automate away all the parts that humans find it difficult to do but for the emotional being there for elderly people I think still think elderly people prefer people they know rather than virtual people that they don't know but the virtual people still can serve as assistants for things like really manual work that doesn't really require an emotional connection I think if the bed can flip itself if the sheets can flip itself and so on of course there is a lot of assistive technology that we can use thanks to machine learning to simplify work and also make the elderly more autonomous more in control of their own life instead of requiring people to help and so the people are seeing more and more not as physical assistive helpers but as emotional just being there for the elders and then the elders can make more contributions to the society with the help of such assistive technologies so that's all the questions with more than one likes and now we still have six minutes so maybe we have room for maybe two questions there was one there right and what's the other one okay so let's as we know more and more younger generation always sleep the phone in the classroom what's your opinion or suggest to our student right so it's about students using phones in the classroom which is exactly why you slide though is to take over their phones right so so it's impossible to compete against the apps like line or Facebook or get the games for attention because these are designed by really professional designers to want people's attention with these people's attention because they're used to work on that and when we design this kind of thing we kind of just design for it to be the only attention seeking application what we did not expect is that if you have more than three messengers or whatever apps that send notifications it creates a cocktail effect in which the brain never finishes processing one thing and then it gets interrupted and then the context gets fused into the next notification and so the mind enters a place where it's not quite doing this and it's not quite doing that in a state of betweenness and that makes the attention very partial very thin and very hard to relate to real people so really it is a mental health issue that's being caused by mobile phones so of course turning notifications off and turning it to silent not even vibrating is my default mode so if you call me I never hear about it I will listen to voice messages and call you back but on the other hand I think it really requires a lot of self-discipline that we cannot trust even the teachers to have in the classroom so it helps to have a more a working protocol of using the phone for something that contributes to the classroom now Slido is an obvious form but there are many Q&As and forums and other technologies like the Khan Academy that I described that can use the students phones to good effect for letting the teacher know where the student is working on and so on so I think it's essential for the teacher to think of the students phones as an extension of their wire board and if the teacher can get into the state then the phone is there to help otherwise I will really recommend the teacher to take into account the time for all the students to turn off notifications, switch to airplane mode or whatever to minimize distraction because otherwise it really degrades the quality but students never like that so which is why I use Slido most of the time alright we still have three minutes last question then yeah please I would like to know your opinion about Taiwan's open government report in the report one of the key function is to talking about this our government is sure of digital power so could you explain digital power more for us okay sure thank you very much yeah the Taiwan open government report is something that's done by the community but because there's a public review report period I actually also work on it as a commentator so chapter 1 chapter 2 in open government data one of the key findings is that the civil service is short of digital power and the system reform is much needed due to reach a PRR policy and obsolete information system lack of coordination between government bodies open data has been prevented from improving efficiency and become a heavy workload for civil servants so I actually completely agree with this problem statement open data in many other countries is designed to improve communication and actually make the civil servants work less tedious but in Taiwan because of our KBI culture when open data was first introduced is introduced as something that the civil service need to do in addition to the original work that we need to do so usually the open data is done in a track but those data is just for the outside people to use and it's not really used for cross departmental communication it's not used for evidence based decision making it's not really used to do something that simplifies the civil service own work so for many civil servants open data becomes the synonym of more work whereas it could be actually the synonym of less work or at least smarter work so I think it really is a strategy of our KPI orientation when open data policy was first done so one of the first moves as a digital minister is just to take out all the quantified KPI's about data sets in the open data portal I think that's really it may have served an educational purpose when it was first introduced but we grew more and more harmful as time goes by and I think I put a stop to it but it's a little bit late so I think for many people when they think about open data they don't think about it improving their workflow or simplifying their workflow they think about oh there's one more KPI to fill so I think once we can get this healing away from the public service then we can talk about how to use data but not as open data but as a way to simplify our work by having people enter their information on one and have all the different departments and all the different ministries able to access it in a useful manner so the citizen doesn't have to fill in five forms and the civil service doesn't have to manually copy numbers from like five different Excel spreadsheets into a presentation as many people are doing day after day to simplify and automate the work is the main idea so which is why I don't really talk about open data much anymore this is what we call data governance or data driven policy making if it works well and if we have a good data protection authority set up the NDEC is working on that then it incidentally becomes open data but open data should be a byproduct it should not be something that you work specifically for but you don't use yourself because otherwise it just gets what we call bit rotten that even bits, even information gets rotten after like it's like flowers if you don't water it, if you don't actually look at it everyday it just withers so I think that's the main attitude we're taking about and so by digital power I think this is not something mysterious or very abstract it just means if something that is digital, something is data instead of a piece of paper you can use it to power your work instead of you know it's being part of your deliverables while part of your KPIs then that digital is not powering you it's actually depriving you of time and depriving you of power I think that's the main idea that I'm going with here so that's it so there was, sorry one question if it's a short one I'm sure we can still take that how do you think about VR shopping oh yeah VR shopping I think e-commerce in general benefits a lot if you can try it on so now we are looking at VR about trying out new buildings or new houses but now we're also seeing like trying on new shoes or new apparels or whatever but I think a lot of experience will go to the purchasing of experiences in itself so it's not in VR you look at some real consumer goods before buying it although of course that will happen I think what we will look at is that people will pay for experience in VR itself curated and made specifically for them it's like tourism but in a virtual planet or in a virtual place instead of on earth but for that matter I still prefer if the experience content comes from somewhere that's real somewhere you can still visit afterwards instead of somewhere entirely synthetic but that's what I think will happen alright so that's it and I'm sorry about the people everybody else who asked on Slido I did not get in on those that's life and thank you for making it such a ringy day thank you so much