 Fawr. Refoli, ganonwch i gyrdd. Mae newydd o'n ei ddweud o'r bobl o'r ystafell. Mae cynno i bywyd yn ystafell arnynno, daeth gynnwysau ei ddweud. Mae'n gwybod i gynnwys ystafell ar gyfer Andy McGregor a Tim Keach. Mae'r ddweud o maen nhw. Fawr yn ddoch yn ei wneud. Fawr. Cysylltiad. Fawr. Fawr yn cael. Mae'n hawdd yma. Mae eu ddwy o'r llwg yma, a ben yw ddych yn cyfnogaeth. Cymru. Rydyn ni'n gofyn i, yw'n dweud o fewn o blaen o'r ffordd. Mae'n fod yn gwybod, mae'n gweithio iawn i'r dweud o fewn o'r ffordd. Rydyn ni'n gweithio bwysig o'r ffordd, mae'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio i'n gweithio'r ffordd. Ond yn hynny mae'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio i'n gweithio i'r ddaf, ond mae'n gweithio i'r ffordd ac mae'n gweithio i'r ffordd. ond rwy'n mynd i'r gwneud yn ffordd i gael rhan o'r ffordd i amlio gydag i'r ddafyn i'r ddau. Mae unrhyw am y ddiweddio'r wneud yn ystod yn gweithio'i gydag i'r ddau, yn gweithio'r 2012 o 2013. Rwy'n ffordd i'r ddau, erbyn y cyfnodau'r cyfnodol yn gweithio'r ddafyn a'i eisiau'r ffordd i'r ffordd i'r ffordd i'r ffordd i'r ddafyn i'r beth. Oedwch chi'n gweithio'r algorydm a dwi'n gweithio'r ddiweddwch hwnnw i cefnodd arnyntion. Dwi'n gweithio'r algorydm o'r ddau. Mae'r ddod o'r ddawwch i gweithio'r ddawwch a dwi'n gweithio'r ddawwch i gweithio'r cyffredinol. Oedwch chi'n gweithio'r ddawwch i gweithio'r ddawwch i gweithio'r gweithio'r ddawwch, oherwydd mae'n ddim yn ogylchedd i'r ddawwch chi. Gwylwch chi, ein bod ei fod yn yma. Fy oed yn ffwrdd, gyda chi'n ffwrdd y tu'r ysgol y byddai'n gweithio? Efallai, mae'n gwaith yn ymdweud, mae'n gwybod yw'r gwaith i'w bach yn ymddangos i'r cyfnod, mae'r Laiton Banes, mae'n gwybod i'n meddwl i'r bloddol ar y Laiton Banes i gael i ddweud ymddangos i gael i'w golygu. maen nhw'n ddweud am ddweud o'r golygu i fynd i gael a'r cyfwyrd yma, yn wahanol i fynd i gael adegau a'r cyfrifyddiadau, a'r cyfrifyddiadau o'r cyfrifyddiadau, yn ymgyrch i'r ffordd. Wrth gwrs, mae'r ffordd eisiau hefyd yn ymweld bod maen nhw'n ddweud, mae'n ddweud i'r cyfrifyddiad, mae'n ddweud i'r cyfrifyddiadau. Ond e'n ddweud i'r cyfrifyddiadau efallai ddweud o'r cyfrifyddiadau, ac roeddwn i'n credu bod mae'n meddwl y gallan eich gwasanaeth oherwydd mae'n gweithio a'r golygu yma. Felly, rydw i'n meddwl i'w gweithio, rydw i'n meddwl i wneud hynny yng Ngheilwyr, yn eu cyflwyno'r gweithiau i'r hynny, a'r hyfforddau a phoesau i wneud, a rydw i'n meddwl i gweithio'r gweithiau. Rydw i'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r hawdd, ac roeddwn i'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r hawdd, Felly mae'r cyfnod radachol iawn i ddod y ddefnyddio gael hyffordd. Mae'r gweithio amser o ddim yn ffordd. Felly mae'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod. Felly mae'n gwybod bod iawn ei fyddech chi'n wneud o'r cyfnod a chymdech chi fyddwn. A oherwydd o'i roedd ychydig o'r gyfnod o'r llwydden a'r ffordd ar gyfer oedau a'r cyfnod o'r cyfnod. a dyna yw'n rhan o'n fwyaf'r hynny yn ymweld i'r ynchwynhau gyda'r cynnig i'w cynnigol. A phas be oeddwn i'n gweld eu gael o'n gweld e'r cynnigol, o'r gwybod o'r cyfried recreation 5-10 yno. mae hynny'n rhoi'n gwneud i'r modd y cyfrifol yw'r bydd y cynnig i ddechrau i'r gael arno'r sut. Rwy'n amgenon o��r ar rydyn ni'n gwybod i yw'n imrodd yn dyma ac mae gennym y dydfod tai dyfod Paul Riley wneud yn dweud i'r ffordd o'r Ffordd Y Everton yma, a ydych yn gwneud yn gweithio'n gwneud. Mae'n dweud i'r ffordd iawn, a mae'n wneud hyn i'n gweithio'n gwneud y ffordd iawn. Rydyn ni'n amser ychydig, a i'w rydyn ni'n ffondi i chi i'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio. Yn gyllid o'r gyllid Gilffey Sigerson yw'r syniadau a wneud yn gweithio'n gweithio. so we suddenly yeah I found a small network of people who were probably a bit geeky in terms of football and wanted to look a bit below the kind of surface depths about whether it scored goals to whether it was actually he was the right fit for the right club at the time and so on. I think that's where Andy and I first met was talking about that type of thing on Twitter and went from there really. Andy you I mean the us seems saying there the whilst that Felly mae'r gwneud o ysgol o'i gweithio, a yw'n ddigonwch yмlwg, gan hwnnw i'n Gweithio i'r reisist o'r Gweithio, lle ddim yn fwy oherwydd gwn i ddweud i mi, a phabulau'r gwreidio, ac mae'r Bigwyr Fyra, gyda Fyra'r gwahaniaeth, a wnaeth yn ei gwybod hynny o'r Gweithio i gwybod, fel Ion Nesaf, dwi nhw'n golygu fawr i'r ddweud i'u cyffredinol, ac roedd o arno'r Gweithio i'r Bigwyr! Efallai yw'n adegu yw'n gweithio gyda'r cyffin? Fe wnaeth yw'n gweld yn fwy ar dod i'w ddechrau'r cyffin a wrth gwrs, eich bod ni'n rheswedd i'r ffynion. Wrth gwrs, yn gyfer eu gwneud yng nghymru, rydych chi'n meddwl i'w ddweud yw'n meddwl i'r ddechrau'u gweithio. Fe wnaeth efallai efallai eich bod ni'n meddwl i'w ddechrau'u dweud, eich bod ni'n meddwl i'r ffeithio. Ac ydych chi'n gweld lle, erbyn y dyfodol yng Ngorffod Ffwrdd yw'r ffordd yn safi'r ymlaen. Mae'n dweud ond y ffordd yw'r ffordd, y ffordd i'r ffordd. Ac mae yna, mae'n meddwl i ddim yn oed yn ystafellol ymlaenol. Mae'n meddwl ymlaenol, y bwysig, yw'r ffascol, ychydig sydd wedi'u cefnogi. Mae'n meddwl i'r ffordd. Ac mae oedda i'r gweithio o'n cyffredinol, ac yn ystyried y Llywodraeth Cymru'r gwahodd yn ymwlych, ac yn mych yn ymwysig, cynnydd y Llywodraeth Cymru yn ymwysig ac yn ymwysig, a'r sefydliadau cymryd i'r newyddion fawr. A dwi'n rwy'n ysgrifennu i'w ddod, oherwydd i'w gwybod i'w'r ddweud ymwysig, ac i'w'r ddweud ymwysig? A'r ddweud ymwysig'n ddweud ymwysig? A'r ddweud ymwysig eich ddweud ymwysig eich ddweud? Cymru, mae called du a ddwy ar gyflwr yw堵raeth, fasterthau'r scariestmail yn amlwgboryni, ac mae gyladwyr y brosparthlaethu'r cosbl, ar y beth latwyr sydd wedi bod ein cyfn紹. Yn y�만 arna dweogwch, na pa hynny'n gwerth bellach bys i'namesyn ni wedi bod nhw'n mynd yn anodd lle nhw. Yn gwrs nawr, nid yw'r tynnu, ry'w'n mynd i'r rôl yw yr anodd lle yn ddweud am ysgrifiannol, ond yn teimlo i'r rhaglen effaith yn rhan fath oedd y llyfridd. Rwyf adael o'r cyflodyniad yma Ieswyr obsama ar gyfer Ynfynd, wrth fynd yn roi amser o'n cyfan yr annan nid, Mae'r ddod o'r gwerth gwrthu i gael ychwanegol ydym ni'n gwrthu. Mae ffawr oedd ychydig i gael gwrthu, ac oherwydd mae'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r cyflwyng. Mae'n gwrthu o'r cyflwyng ynghylch yn ddechrau. Mae'r gwrthu o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r log, a'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud. Jo, mae gwrthu o'n arbennig ymlaen o gyflwyno fawr. Dwi'n credu i ni'n cyfrifiadu i ddechrau am gyffredig mewn Sighgwyr Diolch o ddechrau, ymhellwch wrth cyflawnol. Mae rydych wedi'u wanth o bwysig i fynd i ddechrau fech Coedig, cyffredig fod ymheil gŵr. Ac ychwaneg i ychwaneg i ddechrau ar gael. Yn hoffi'r dda i eisiau i ddechrau, mae'n gweld i eisiau gweld i ddechrau i ddechrau. A fi, mae'n cyfrifiad. Mae yw raddod di ymhellwch sydd i amlwy i ddod o reserddio ar gyfer eu gwahanol, Ond yw'r cyfnoddau cyfnoddau y ffordd o'r blwysig a'r gwrddau yr gwrddau'r ffawr yma, ond oes y gallai'r gwaith, rydych chi'n gweithio'r cyfloddau, rydych chi'n gweithio'r llyfr, rydych chi'n gweithio'r llyfr. Ond yw'r cyfloddau er mwyn o'r ffordd o'r ddweud i'n gweithio'r ffordd, mae'r ddefnyddio'n gyfnoddau. Mae'r dweud o'r ddweud i gwaith yn dwych, ond rwy'n gweithio'n gyfan. o'r eisiau a'r coulu iawn o'r cymdeithasol, a'r cydwys i? A'nstream cydwys i fod yn ymweld ar y cyfflygu. Am bobl eich gwlad yn gwahanol i ddim yn ymddangos y fataith. Éch awr iawn, mae'r rhan o'r cydwys i'ch fath. Mae'r cydwys i'ch gael yn ymwyaf i ddim yn ei gwaith a'r cof份 o'r polm. Yna y byw yw i'ch cydwys i, yw ei ddim yn ymweld. Ychaf, mae'n holl i, efallai'n meddwl. eich mor hwn ymmwrdd. Rydyn ni'n gwybodaeth o'r hyd adrwysu. Rydyn ni'n mynd i'r adrwysu. Rydyn ni'n gwybodaeth o'r hyn ar gyfan. Rydyn ni'n gwybodaeth o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r gwirionedd o'r mynd i phas o gwrthu'r maen nhw. Rydyn ni'n gwybodaeth o'r hyn o'r cyffredin Fawn i ddim yn ymarll assistance o'r maen nhw o feithio. Rydyn ni'n meddwl i'r hyn oedd yn ffordd o'r hwn, rym ni'n ddiddiad i gynnalodd-o ar gyfer y gynnal? Byddwn i'n rhan o'r ffordd o'n gweld. Lywodd wedi cydmänn i gyfaf sydd wedi'u dreidio i gyd o popeth y clynyddi, Felly, mae'r cyflwb iawn er sgwrs ydw i'r llwg nhw ar y clynyddiad ac oedd eich gwleidio yn ôl mi dyna, sydd gyda gael eu bod nhw ar ôl ym mfau sydd ei wneud, amser mae'r例 i gael'r llefair, mae'r llefair mae genius unig. a'n ddwy'n ddweudais cy tearsy'r cyfamilych i mi am cerddwnaeth. Mae'n rhaid i dda i'ch ddeithasio am rhan cyhoedd unrhyw gweithio'r unrhyw yn y ddechrau. Mae'n ddweud i'n sefyllfa'n spir eich gweld oed. Dyna chi eich mewn ddweud gyda'r cael ei wneud i'r cyfweydd yn ddweudcussol. Dych chi wedi gweld, rydyn ni'n deudonol, mae'n prif, mae'n rhaid i gael i fynd i'r byw i'r gweith. Byddwch, aíw'n byd, gan erbyn hwn. gweithio'n gymoedd hwnnw i ymddianzi ac'n mynd i ddiwedd yn ymwyno gweithio i'r sięg. Mae gwn i'n cael ddyntaf i gynnwys ymrwysig, dd wedi bod nef yn gwneud i'r ddigwydd a'r cwrwt i ddylch yn eu falch fel y cymhwysig. Llyfr oherwydd, mae'n ffordd yn bwysig o gywyddon Cymru a chyfodd yn gwneud yn cwnderddol i'r ddweud nad oedd yn yn wyf i dda noll, a Grem Potter yn gynchon adnodd pan unrhyw i'r newydd a new manager, ac tynnu'n cyffredinio hanfod ar y cael gyfer y fanydd o'r cyfrifod. Felly, yw'r cyfrifod, yn gwneud hynny. Felly mae'r cyfrifod yn ei gweithio i fod i'r 50 o 60 page o documentau yn ymdrych ymdrych â hyn yn ymdrych â hyn. A'r cyfrifod yw ddweud hynny yn ei gweithio ar y cyfrifod, yn ddiddordeb i'r cyfrifod. Mae'n gweithio'r cyfrifod yw'r cyfrifod yw wlad cyfnod ar gyfer y maen nhw, Felly mae'n meddwl gyda'n mimgol mi gyda'r newydd gan rhagor a Andie Scott ar milli ac mae'r meddwl i gwahanol er sgolodd. Bydd ydy'r meddwl gyda'n meddwl gyda'i ei fednig o'r documentau ar y llyfr gyda'n meddwl, ac mae'n meddwl i'r meddwl gyda'r Arlheiddiadau mewn efwyrraedd byd yn y staan AM 25, ac yn ysgrifennu ient i hyn i'w iawn ar y cyflwch, ac roedd iawn i'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'n meddwl. Felly, dwi'n gweithio ar y mynd, ac rydyn ni'n fyddwyd, roedd yn ymddangos. Felly, rydyn ni'n gweithio'r iawn ar gyfer, a fyddwyd yn ymddiadau. Felly, rydyn ni'n gweithio ar gyfer, oherwydd mae'r gweithio gydaeth. Felly, nad yna'n cael ei gael. Felly, rydyn ni'n gweithio ar draws fynd yn Yrwynt Cymru. Rydyn ni'n gweithio ar gyfer, a'i gweithio ar gyfer, a'u cynyddiadau a'u cyfechthigau. a rydyn ni i'n ddig balloonwyd ei gynnaeth i mewn. Rydyn ni'n hyn, a rydym i'n meddwl i ddim yn gwneud Andy i'w Jay i'w ddim yn effeithio. Rydyn ni'n hyn, ac rydyn ni'n namu 5 o'r parw fydd o'r gwaith a 5 o'n credu'r sultans na maen nhw. Gweithio i arddangos adnod o adeg y traddoriaeth cheihaeth gyda'n gweithio, a gallwn ymddangos wedi bod yn gyrwch yn ychydig. relatively fel fanio. A adlewyddan yn het yn ffrif, adlewyddan yn ffrif, adlewyddan yn ffrif, maen nhw'n ganddfa y bydd ychydig yn ychydig am hael ac yn siarad ac rhaid sicrhau gwiyn nhw. Meddwl y ffordd gyda'r hynny mae'r amser yn ychydig. Ond yw'r mynd i gyfnodaeth, yn ysgrifennu am y ffordd a chi ddweud, ond mae'r afael yn y ffordd yn ffydd, ac mae'r ffordd yn fwyafrwyddol meddwl mewn hollu. Dych chi i wych yn bwysig i ddaf ni'r ffordd yn eich garfod, ond mae'n go largerio, dwy'n fyddigio'r gweithio'ch ffordd, eich cofnodg. Rwy'n dweud hi'n meddwl gan osi Addie, yn yna cael digon yw'r ffordd wedi eu gwaith yn swyddau, Byddwn i gyfnodwch fod maen nhw, ddim yn wahanol y byddai yn ôl. Dyna dwi'n mynd i, a mynd i ddim yn edrych a fyddwn i'r cyfoeddu sydd nesaf o sgwytau eu bod yn gweithio yn swythher a ddweud o hynny. Dyna efallai. Dw i'n edrych i'n gwybod meddwl yn yr hyn, byddwch ymyrnedd eich cyhoeddiol yn gwybod yr eich cyfnodwch yn gyfuddio'u oddydd i'r cyfeutio. Ond ydych chi'n gyffredig o'r anferddai wyliadol o'r cyfryd wedi gyfrannu, Merdo you just the case of John Parrott, because this is what I really want to get into? I didn't like this, so at the time I was doing work for an agency, and I've still found friends with the agency was working with them and he's done a big help to me since it started, so basically I was doing a lot of reports on Twitter about different European players. At the time I didn't want to do the job I was doing anymore. Yorkshire and financial consultant for 10 years and I wasn't enjoying it anymore so I left. I was sort of looking around at what to do next. I also felt that in personal life that I didn't have ... I wasn't able to have the conversations I wanted to have about football, my friends were interested in football and are level the same as me. Not that everyone is. People got different levels of interest in football of course. My arm was a deep analytical thinking level of football so I wanted to sort of branch On dwi'n hefyd ein bod rhywbeth nhw. Mae'n gorfod o'i ddaf i. Rwy'n hoffi'n gwych arall. Mae gwych arlafod yr hynna oherwydd a gwych arall. Udych chi'n myfyrdd yr unrhyw tai, byddwn i'r awaith i'r blaenau. Byddwn i'n gwell yn defnyddig, byddwn i'n gwych arall, byddwn i'n meddwl gyddfa och yn gallu gwahanol i'r blaenau i'r hanes. Not yna rhoi fynd i'n myfyrdd. Ac yna'n gw pastam i'n gwahanol, that those websites that have been around, such as Cusco, and un-stapt, to try and find those next players. And I think I think quite well at the time. And then I joined the agency. I spent a bit of some of wood, laid out mandates, which is where spy clubs or players from abroad give agencies in the UK the mandate to sell them to clubs here. So he was looking for players that he could sort of sell to Premier League clubs. And then Tim Callerlong, who was telling me he'd gone off and from Swansea City. Rwy'n ei wneud, ac yn ymwneud o'i'r rai ddweud am yr oed, wrth gwrs, rydyn ni'n rai'n fawr i'n fawr i'r gweithio'r llyfr yng nghymru. A rydyn ni'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r team yn ymgyrchol o'r gwahanol. Rydyn ni'n meddwl, rydyn ni'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r llyfr yng Nghyrchol, a'r gyfnodd yn ddych chi i ymwneud. Rydyn ni'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r yn ymgyrchol, And I didn't really know Kevin and Jay that well but I certainly spoke to them on Twitter. So now it all came together really well and it's been a wonderful ride so far and I can't comment. I have a south-hand for them and taking them home. That is what a story, brilliant isn't it. Brilliant that something you love, something you want to do. You're at the right time being your career. I ddim y bedir. Rydw i ddim yn ym mangodd, yn mynd i'r delectrofiol, yn llwyddiol, yn lŵi, yn bryd, yn swydd. Dwi'n ddelirau am y blaen nhw. Mae'r bynnag, byddai'n cael ei haf sy'n ffeirio datblygu'n gweithio a ddweud. Mae'r cyffin sydd yn rhoi ei gwneud i chi'n cael ei bod yn wneud. Mi trafnodd, hanes? I apologise for that mate but you know, you've been the same don't you it's not all one way don't start all that. Yours is nine o'clock in the morning when I'm doing 15 things. Yeah. Tim so obviously that you know swans you came up, you got involved with that so how did that work? How was that with your first club and trying to impress them and you know Can you talk us through what that was like? Yes, so the club at the time was in a situation where they had been relegated from the Premier League. They still had a hangover of quite a few high value contracts from that time. So it wasn't a club you're going to go into and they've got millions of pounds to spend. It was one where we were having to look at the structure of the club. So they had hired Steve Cooper then as the head coach who had only previously worked with England youth teams and in Liverpool's reserve youth teams. So we looked at it with Andy's. This wasn't just us of course, it was the whole club. But Andy would say like, what can we do to make this? What can we do to maximise the quality of players we have on the pitch? So we quickly felt that using Steve's ability to work with young players was going to be the right way to go. And using his contacts within the FA and within the youth systems of the big clubs. So they bought in Mark Gray, Ryan Brewster, Connor Gallagher and players like that, who had worked with the England youth teams who all did really well and filled that gap where they were getting rid of the expensive contracts and bringing in the wage bill down to a sustainable level. And what we did in the background as well is try and build up a scouting database so that when there was money to spend or they in the future had the ability to spend money, we would at least be on top of all the players with reports logged in their scouting system. So they like most clubs have a paid for scouting system, which we would file reports in for them. And yeah, we literally probably put hundreds of reports over the nine or 10 months that we were there on the contract with Swansea to do. So yeah, we built up a huge scouting database with them. And the way that works is generally you're watching video and you're filling in almost like each player's attributes and you give them a rating on the system and then that gives you a total point score for the player. And I think that's probably industry standard to do things along those lines. Sometimes it's letter grade, sometimes it's numbers, but at the end of the day, you're watching players, you're looking at the attributes, trying to find the ones who best fit the club. And yeah, I'd say with Swansea, I think we were probably very enthusiastic and we were probably a bit naive at the time about the reality of where clubs would shop for players. The majority of transfers are domestic in the UK, the vast majority are domestic. So it's great that on Twitter we were saying, oh, this 18-year-old in Slovenia is brilliant, but the reality is most clubs won't touch him. You're far better looking at the 26-year-old playing in the championship who's consistent and is already at that level and is proven. So I think, yeah, we went into it with a bit of an idea, but a lot of enthusiasm and I think the work was definitely appreciated. And yeah, from there, other clubs, because Swansea were kind enough to let us publicise the fact that they're taking us on, other clubs picked it up. And yeah, we ended up with quite a wide client base, not just in the UK, but like around the world. And yeah, the process is always fairly similar regardless of the level. It's like use data to find the interesting players, watch them, find the best match for the club you're working for, and really like going to that granular detail like Andy was talking about the levels of it. You can't just say he's a good, good striker like what's he do specifically and how does that fit in with like how you create chances and all that level of information that probably fans to a certain extent don't care about. You just want the goal to be scored, but if you're spending millions of pounds on the players contract, it's got to be the best match of the available players. So yeah, we had a chance for Andy to go into the geekier, super detailed granular stuff. So yeah, that's basically why I'd say most clubs operate like. And certainly I think there's ways you can make it run efficiently and effectively. But at the end of the day, it's always a combination of data and video and a bit of live scouting at the end of the process. But I mean, Andy will tell you that me with my strikers, I look at everything with stripes. The other, not so much the others, he'll have me off with midfielders, defenders and all that, but he's not pulling, he's never, he's not pulled the wall of my eyes with forwards because that was the position I played. I love it and I look at everything and you're absolutely righteous because someone knocks some goals, it's what else they can do and I guess that's where data comes in. Andy, obviously Tim's just said there, that was Swansea, that was the first, you know, your first, brought you duck with Swansea and it's grown since then. Obviously because you've done good work, things like that don't grow unless you're doing good work. So how has it been for you in terms of managing? Like how would you go for and say a Swansea level side to say a league two side? Are there needs different, I'm quite your budget wise, the difference and maybe level of play. So how do you factor that in when you're looking for players? Well that's, yeah, so we do have a range of different clients across the different levels like we saw, we worked with Swansea at the time, it was a good championship side, they made the playoffs under Steve Cooper, they were certainly a good side and we thought we've done work with league two sides in different capacities. Obviously we're probably most known, you know, I guess in UK circles for our work in league one in terms of our work with Plymouth, Argyll and MK Donson. I guess that there's some other big clubs that I won't mention because obviously client confidentiality, our roles are different between the two so with some of our bigger clients, we're probably on the outside of the process contributing in terms of names and different projects that we can help the club with with people like a Plymouth or an MK Donson, we're involved in the process all round in every way where speaking to, I speak to the head of recruitment Jimmy Dickinson at Plymouth every single day above different players, we do projects for them every single day, I speak to Neil Duesnick who's the technical director. So every different project that we undertake has different elements. Obviously at the core of it, certainly with my work with clubs it is generally recruitment that is my specialty in terms of helping players. And you're right there, it is different, your horses of course as I always say, you have different players at different levels and that's when I first started on Twitter I was fairly European and South America and Japan or wherever I could find players because that's where I find it exciting and I had to sort of adapt to the FL and the level between league one, league two, championship even though they're really separated by a league, one league difference is vastly different so that involved a lot of watching for me in terms of what was required in those leagues, understanding the levels, understanding the level of physicality, how quick the game is, the level of players that you need to find. So that's not just data, because again, data can help you to identify good players at the FL level. But there's a lot of contextualisation about watching players, the physical attributes that you need for teams. So with the teams that we work with, at the FL level, a lot of it is watching as well as using data and the matter together as Tim said, the process for me is always use data to identify, then add that context around level, physical attributes, technical ability within that you're watching and then obviously, as Tim said again, the evidence and on the end, you have to evidence why that player fits that club. And we've had some good success with those league one clubs. So yes, it's gone well in terms of that. I think as I always say to people about football, watch football at every different level you can because obviously I grew up watching that in the Premier League, that's the highest level of football you can get. It's vastly different at league one. You know, you can't expect players to do the same things. It can be quite frustrating. But you know, that is how you improve. You don't understand different levels. And obviously, again, when you understand the levels, it makes it easier for you to make judgement on players because you can say, well, that player is not a league one, is a league one player, but he has a ceiling of a league one. Or you can look at a player and say, he's a league one player now, maybe 18 months, you can see him as a championship player with the improved improvements. Plymouth, our guy, especially, who I work with closely, our club wants to bring players and improve them. So that is part of our remit in looking at players that we can improve and kick off. It's mad, isn't it? Because you see people, some people will look at players in the championship and they might be scoring goals and they go, buy him. He's got loads of goals, he'd be fine for ever, you know, other clubs. And you know, as you go down the leagues, you're saying there, there'll be lads in league two who are putting the ball in the net, maybe regularly or a centre back who looks like he's comfortable. And but then when you look in, you can actually step up. And in some cases, people can improve, you can never stop improving. You can work, work, work, but it is difficult to guess with levels as well with ceilings, like you're saying, isn't it? Some, I think the ceiling will be quite obvious. You can tell that, although they're effective at that level, would they be effective higher up? We see this, we've, I always call it the Dwight Gael, the Dwight Gael scale. You know, it's all Timu Pukie. You know, we know it's an international footballer, but it's very, very good at the championship level. Premier League. Right, again, this is this is this is this is where it comes in. Timu Pukie is a good Premier League striker when he plays. He's like, I think just under one and two. No, no, honestly, for this one time, this is this is the difference. No for me. No for me. He's had two cracks. He's had two cracks, Harry. He's not done it either. No, no, sorry. And Dwight Gael is the same. What you're talking about is. No, but what you're talking about is someone who can who can play in the Premier League. Well, yeah, well, I can name you. Yw mae ni allu play in the Premier League, but I wouldn't say. No, but I agree with that. But what we point out, I don't think it's a lie. No, I told you, midfielders had a back the way immediately. That's a good point, really, in terms of Dwight Gael's skill. Yeah, you go from like, you know, like, you know, Timu Pukie will use other examples where they've gone from as a top championship side and promoted into the Premier League. And then they're not one of the big fish anymore. And the chances come less and less. I think that's why I do back Pukie because he has taken chances when he's got them, even though, you know, Norwich obviously found it difficult when they played in the Premier League. But I think that's another thing. If you look at other players who've come up, you know, Neil Mawr, Pais Scott, 25, Brentford, 8 or 10 goals strike for Brighton. Obviously, he's come to that, but I hope he can kick on. It's just that there's a change, obviously, in the fact that you're going from clubs to create multiples of chances to clubs that are struggling to make chances because there's so many dominant big teams in the Premier League. Obviously, we've talked about leagues and leagues. You know, you play 12 games a season. I think it was the third of your games against monster teams. We had Uber budgets bigger than yours. So it's the ability to identify those players. You can take chances in the limit of six core goals and the limited number of opportunities that they get. But no, you know, I certainly understand that the Dwight Gare scale. Obviously, people have seen him. We've got multiple goals at the championship level. And obviously, I've been able to do it for Newcastle at the Premier League level. Yeah, and obviously, you know, you're right, of course. You know, I've been in terms of the playing against better centrebacks as well. They were quicker and stronger. So that's going to cut your chances down if your team isn't creating a lot of chances. I'm just looking at the other bits around, like say Pukie. He's not got a real turn of pace. Is he physically strong enough to keep the ball? He's OK. He's not too bad that way. But while I'll equate that if ever I'm going after him. But then for every team who Pukie, there's obviously Ivan Tone. He's now in the England squad. He's a player who was played in League One, didn't he? Was he? Where was he at in League? Was he in England? He's in Borough, wasn't he? And then obviously, Brentford, he's been fantastic at Brentford and he's stepped up. And they are a strong side anyway now just from their recruitment, which is happening just nicely back to your recruitment. And they've done it a lot of people would say, or more and more people now would say, yeah, that's the way you should be doing it. And now Andy, listen, you've banged on about this for years. You know, we've had many, many a video out there of us going on. I'm sure Tim, I've seen Tim's tweets when he's trying to he's trying to throw things in a bat set, a certain club. Absolutely, absolutely. He does it, yeah, he does it. But it must be... It's all not funny every time I say it. I know, but it must be so frustrating because you're obviously within the game and can see how it works. But that's just for now. Let's stay away from that. We can have a conversation off-camera about our club and things like that. How does a transfer market work for you, then, Tim? What was... Cos obviously, transfer windows is what fans now have been led to believe is better than football. If you actually look at the excitement level while a transfer window is open. Once the 40 starts again, the levels drop a little bit and it's still be ramped up again. But how does a transfer window work for you? So obviously, we've just had one closed. Are you already thinking about January or how does it work? Yeah, I'd say the players that clubs sign will be very unusual. It should be very unusual for them to be signing players that haven't been on the radar for them for quite a long time. So if you're talking about us with our league one clients, I imagine every single player that we end up putting forward to be signed has been extensively looked at for months before that, unless they are a suddenly emerging talent you've got a chance of getting. And then, yeah, you can blitz that player and find out everything you can in a short amount of time. And that's where people like Brighton have probably had luck, is not luck, but they've done well because they've looked at those players and they've been really good at forecasting who's only just emerging, got them in early and then given them like a year to develop like Casado and Yakov Mordor and people, they've done that process really well. But with us, we would have a, we'd also always have looked at the players before, well before the window. It might be two or three windows before you actually end up signing that player after they've gone in the database, just because I think what people probably don't understand or really maybe they would understand it, but they don't really think about it, is that you're not acting in isolation, is not like you want a player and you can get them, is like you want a player, five other clubs want them, you've got a list of probably like 10 players that you would consider for that position and you work your way through the priority list. Other people are coming in, other people are bidding for your players, someone breaks up with their girlfriend and wants to move area, all these type of things that you don't really think about happen all the time. They're human beings you're dealing with at the end of the day and they can say yes or no to transfers. And I know with some of our league one players we've signed there's been six, seven, eight, nine clubs in for the same player. And then it's a question of how can you best persuade them that you've done the work, the most work on them and your system and your manager and your club is right for that player. So there's a lot of like a seduction of players, I think you'd call it where you're trying to get them to join you over the many other options they will have. And a lot of the time at league one level that comes down to geography. And they'll be like, I love what you've said, but I live in Manchester and I'm not going to move to Plymouth or I'm not going to move to Milton Keynes. So the wages aren't that high that it's worth it for most players at that level. You're talking a few thousand pounds a week, not tens of thousands of pounds a week. So it's not bad money by any means, but it's not like uproot your family, buy a new house off your first couple of weeks wages, type of money. So we would always say you go into it really prepared, you've got long list of options for every position and then it's a case of your director of football being able to persuade those players to join you and the manager at that stage would get really involved in speaking to the players and persuading them that their club is the best fit. So, yeah, there's probably a lot more, yeah, a lot more kind of talking about transfers before they happen. And I'm pleased to say like all the clubs we're at is very rare at Leakes who we're speaking to or anything. If it does, it's normally the agent trying to drum up interest in their player, but within clubs, nothing really leaks out to the press. So quite a lot of the time you'll hear fans saying, well, I know we're talking to this guy and it's like it's either complete rubbish or it was something that was mentioned maybe six weeks earlier and the agent is now trying to drum up interest because it's fallen through, but live transfers very rarely do people hear anything about. I mean, that might be different at different levels, but certainly for the frag clubs it's been really tight in terms of public information. So I've definitely gone off transfer speculation because even if, I always say, even if they had our lists and they had like 100 players on our lists, we're going to sign to those. So they gave you 100 names, 98 would be wrong, even if they had our actual list of players we were going to sign over what we signed. So yeah, it's still a bit of fun. I still enjoy it. I still get annoyed by the players to get linked with and that type of thing, but I know it's not, say, I'm not as bothered as I am. Andy, for you, so I suppose, obviously you're already, will already be looking ahead to January for the possible recruitment and stuff. And it is that, like Tim just said, is this going to involve players you've been looking at for months rather than someone just popping up an opportunity? Yes, there's different ways to, there's new players who pop up all the time, players who come out of academies, people who are signed in from different places like Ireland or Scotland or wherever. They probably have, you know, you'd have knowledge of, but you don't have that contextuality, that knowledge of them playing in the FL, I suppose, sometimes that, you know, when players come over from Ireland there's a league that is not the same level as a league here. So you're sometimes seeing them, you're seeing them do well in a league. Obviously they can obviously add cost to it because obviously if they do well in the FL, the value's more than when they do well in Ireland. But those, there's different levels of players. So yes, there's often is that we are, we have been looking at players for a while, whether they've been up with you at Premier League under 21 level, they've got a low move to league too, they've done well there, they've shown us they can play men's football, then it's time to come to a league, one group, things of that nature. Yes, so there's usually players, you know, players who are 21st on the list, you know, that's quite a lot of players, but 21st on the list last season, Brendan and Halley staff of the season, what the current situation is for them, they may have moved with the list. So it can happen obviously, players develop at different ages, you know, when we talk oppositional, sometimes strikers take a little bit longer because obviously the physical side of the game is quite tough or defenders who tend to develop a bit later as well, because obviously they have to experience all the different types of environment that they're going to play in, obviously playing to much more physical men as well as to come out of the youth level. So there's different, there's different factors in how we end up coming to fine players and recruit players. But certainly, as Tim said, it's very rare nowadays because of the access that people have that you wouldn't know a player at all. You know, a big back to 15 years ago, obviously Euthanasia, you were very famous in having thousands of DVDs from all around the world to look at players. I would, I would definitely, I would probably struggle in those times, that would require going to matches and being in the right place at the right time often. You know, just find that Alexis Sanchez or whoever, people like Euthanasia's fans, so it'd be very difficult to find those players without the massive amount of information, whether it be data or video that we have now. So, you know, for January now, we build up by watching players in the current teams they're in. We obviously have reports on them from the past. We carry five years of previous data as well to look at players' development curves. So it's just about looking at the needs of the team. We use data, obviously, to identify what the team's missing, whether that be, for example, someone who can, you know, clearly do well to defend and set pieces or that, obviously, set pieces have become much more concentrated on area of football and teams who can't defend set pieces tend not to do as well in leagues as, you know, Everton and Leicester, obviously saw last season the issues with set pieces. So, yeah, it's just about identifying the weaknesses or the needs of a team and then finding players who now fit that need. And that can change the previous season of play. I might have not been suit of the role, but now because of the different roles or the involvement tactics of the manager, whether the manager changes, you need a different type of players. Is it frustrating when you've identified the player and you're leaving it like Tim just said, you're leaving it in the hands of the, you know, sporting director at the club and you're thinking, we've got him, he's going to be perfect for what we've picked up and then an agent does the dirty or an agent says, you know, I can get you another 200 quid at this club and that goes, that goes. It is frustrating, yeah, it is. And I'm, you know, I still say I'm quite a cool freak out. Really? Really? I hadn't noticed. No, no, I haven't, you know, I wanted, obviously, because obviously it's handing it off to other people to do, and I don't mean wrong, but you know, people are Plymouth, you know, Preston and other people that, you know, agree to what they do. So I trust them complicitly, but it's just that that's the nearest part because you've done all the work that you want to do. But then again, for us as well, it's a real test of us as well, because often you don't get your first choice. I'll be honest, there's just plenty of times we've got and, you know, even if we've ended up with a third choice, but because of the, the, the, the, the work we've done, we feel confident that third choice will still improve us. So it's about the quality of your history. I think, you know, obviously it's famous that Liverpool wanted to sign, you know, Mark O'Royce or Julian Branson, and the days on the recruitment department convinced the Indian Club that actually, Mo Sal was the right choice. And, you know, history tells us that that was the right choice. So, you know, it's not the quality of your choice. Am you Mark O'Royce? Go on. Yeah, I'm Mark O'Royce, yeah, exactly. So it's about the depth and quality of your scouting. And having to find the most players who fit, obviously, sometimes it can be one or two players, and that is the most frustrating part that you do sometimes have to look around for something maybe not as good as you had, because obviously in the FL there's not many clubs who have money or, you know, vast, vast wage bills. So trying to find players who fit in within your budget who will also come to the club, it can be very difficult, there's not a variable that's involved as well. Tym, dos e, an o mor ym môr a i yswn e, but it'll just surprise you that some Premier League clubs haven't seen in the past to have kind of used what is to me is a sensible metric to see where the players fit. I mean, we can talk about our own club, which seems now to be doing things in the right way. Manchester United is one for me where I look at and I just think with all them resources, how do you still keep getting things wrong? You know, they should be better. And there's loads of, it seems like there's quite a few other clubs who just don't work at the same level. So does that surprise you given, obviously you're interested in dating, you're interested in statistics and stuff and how you're applying it at lower level? Does it surprise you that, you know, you've mentioned Brighton, I've mentioned Brentford as well, who seem to be two clubs with lower budgets who are doing it? Does it surprise you that others haven't went? I think Liverpool certainly do it and have done well with it. I imagine Manchester City do similar, maybe. So does it surprise you? Yes and no, yes. I think probably every club will have a really good data department in it at Premier League level. They'll have staffed, they'll have all the access to the systems, they'll have built their own data systems, but it all comes down to the ownership and the leadership in the club. If your owner is going to get excited because they've seen a player score a goal in the Champions League on telly and says, I want him, then that's going to overall every bit of data analysis or any list that has been put together because at the end of the day they're the one signing the check, they're the ones deciding which players are signed in. Likewise, if you get a manager who, and probably to reach a certain level, you need a certain personality and that personality is very sure in what they're doing and they will think they know players better than anyone else that fit their system. And even though you might go in there armed with your reams of statistics and video clips and scouting reports, if they've watched that player have an absolutely brilliant game and they've heard great things from their friends in the industry, that will all be information that is used as a bounce to decision. Then it comes down to how strong your processes are in your club and that's something that we push to a load of clubs now in addition to the scouting work is the kind of processes that you need behind that to get the value from it. Because as I said, I know that lots of the clubs you've mentioned have really good people out there who produce really good work, but haven't necessarily had that unified direction of what do we want this football club to be playing like. And that we use the word alignment far too much, but it's basically does your owner and your sporting director and your coach and your players all make sense in the way that you say you want to play football? Because if the manager doesn't agree with the other three people, then it won't work and the manager can be sacked or replaced. If the sporting director doesn't disagree, it doesn't have the same vision as the owners, he'll be sacked. But if the owner themselves doesn't know what they want, then that's probably a really dangerous situation because they'll just react passionately to things rather than looking at the underlying performance. We lost four-nil in the derby, get rid of the head coach. Well, the opposition might have a team that's cost five times as much to assemble and is a world-class team that's been built up over years and you might be six months into a five-year rebuild. And that's the thing that I think we've noticed most of all. It doesn't happen overnight, like especially at Premier League level, you give a player a bad contract over five years. As soon as that player will be with you for the full five years, you won't be able to get rid of them. If you're not willing to play, they're not giving you 120 grand a week's worth of value. There's no other league in the world who will take them on for 120 grand a week. They will just loan them out until the contract goes. And we've seen that a lot at some clubs over the last few years. And I'm sure Turkish Airlines have made a lot of money to shipping players to and from Merseyside over the last few years as well. But it's generally the case that, yeah, your owner determines how good your club will be. So Brentford and Brighton, very stats-driven, both the owners are professional gamblers basically. They run bookies or they've made their money through fine margins and looking for those little arbitrage opportunities. And I think sometimes your owners who have made money in other ways see it as like a trophy asset, where I want to buy the best player I can get and I will keep putting money in until we're good. And that used to work. Used to be able to be a Jack Walker and go in and win the championship with Blackburn by just buying the best players. But now the gap between an income of a mid-table team and a top Champions League team is 200 million a year. No one can afford to bridge that gap by even if they, even the spree that some clubs in Everton, for example, have been on over the last 10 years. You see Liverpool fans saying like, oh, you've spent more than us. If you ignore wages, yes. If you take wages into account, there's still half a billion pounds gap between the spending of the two clubs. You're not going to bridge that on your own. So you have to be clever and you have to build things up slowly. And all those kind of, oh, we want the 27-year-old so we win now type conversations. You're better off buying the 21-year-old and having them for five years, Rashalysen style and selling them for the 60 million quid and reinvesting that money again in your next generation of younger players rather than just constantly buying your ready-made players at vast expense who don't really last that long. Yes, we've seen quite a few players over the years. You know what? This is something that I'll hold my hands up and say when it's just from my club, obviously from my club, when everything was taken over and we bought a series of players who were kind of mid-20s, well, you know, coming into what do you describe it as peak? Not quite post-peak, but in peak. At the time, you're thinking, oh, I understand this thinking we're going to jump up. But I think that, so I first, I remember there was criticism when everything, just using evidence as an example, when everything brought in, not so much Ghana because he's still unbelievable now. But you know, when he was excellent, selling seven million quid, there's what, and he was, you know. But other players, you know, Janach Balasi and Ashley Williams and these kind of players, you were all that age and even the year later, you are thinking, I think people were still thinking of we can get a quick run on it. But my thinking is totally, I'm probably influenced heavily by Andy as well, to be fair, is that you do have to look at it slightly differently. I think a lot of us, I might be wrong, but I'll use me. I can't speak for people, can I? So I'll use me. I think you still were looking at the Chelsea stroke Manchester City era where heaven investments got it wrong, heavily investments, that's a bit better, heavily invested, now we're all right, we've bridged it. Manchester City were obviously the last one before they pulled the ladder up with, you know, profit and sustainability and FFP call it what you want. They were able, don't forget, a lot of people forget with Manchester City that we're on the second takeover, the first takeovers place, the hell of a lot of money and got hardly anyone out of it of any worth. Other than, other than, well, I know, yeah, I'm buzzing off on those. Vincent Company was the one, wasn't he? I was going to say, Vincent Company was the one who was unbelievable. The second one brought in unbelievable footballers like Iguero, David Silver and took it to a next level. But City were able to jump up eight stairs, weren't they? By just going bang, bang, bang, bang. Everton's done it totally the other way and because the rules have changed and it's why I look at Newcastle now when I hear people I had quite a good discussion with Paul Scholes on the overlap about how Newcastle waiting just going to be able to keep going. He was saying they'll just keep spending 300 million a year, 400 and it's like he can't really because of the rules. So you have to do it differently and Newcastle, I think, I think they are trying to do it a little bit differently and other clubs do it, but it has changed so much. Just one thing. Can I just say, can I get going on the call? No, no, I think this is where it's become really important now. I think, as you say, people, you know, looked at the Man City, the Chelsea way. And I think now you have to sort of pre-plan completely. If you own your own now, your investment, whatever it may be, you have to pre-plan and strategise how you're going to spend that money because we've seen, you know, Aston Villa, you know, we've spent money, they're probably up against coming up against the FFP. Obviously, luckily, they're jack realish to sell, but then you get down the line, you're going to still need the jail and rams or whatever to sell. So, and that's an issue for clubs trying to maintain that as you go on up. You can have to lose players to keep spending. And it's high and we're wrong. You know, people can make good recruitment decisions year after year, but you don't. Sometimes you have fallow periods. Every club has, you know, Liverpool might have one coming up, you know. Some say God willing to. No, but that's what happens. So, the strategic plan on how to spend the money is massive. Now, obviously Newcastle, but using Newcastle as a quick example and going too long on this, they obviously had a real-time situation, the fact that they could have got relegates. So, they had to probably front-load a bit of that money on maybe some older players, Chris Wood, Ciaran Trippier and others. So, that's circumstance, but I think if there are any new owners coming up against the strategising, how are you going to get around the FFP situation and we'll call them a Leicester, because obviously Leicester, even though we know now they are up against FFP themselves, Leicester to compete in a Leicester or a Westam style way, where you get me 70, you get into Europe, or maybe like a Leicester, you know, I know they won the league, but that was a sort of different period for them, winning their thing up under Brendan Rodgers. That's probably the new way of competing, unfortunately. There is probably a way and there will be some luck on day where teams do become a top and get and break into that big number of teams. But that initial strategisation, having the right people and the right departments and the right resources in place, is massive for clubs now. Unfortunately, do you have owners coming into the league now, but who wants to show that they acknowledge you're spending money? And I think caution's required, because I think if you want to be a top Premier League club or a top seven or top eight club, you need to think about heavily before you start spending. Yeah, and I'll think you're right then. It can be done, but it's planning. And you've got to try and bridge that gap like what you've both said, Tim said as well. The budgets between the two playing-wise, how do you bridge that gap when they got Champions League and £100 million to spend next year and all of that? So there has got to be other ways. Just Tim, I want to just come back to something you did say there about when you're talking about management as well. Is that something that you've looked at? I think I've seen you put out a few times like a club structure and talking about management. So can your analytics what you do at Market Insights can that help with the recruitment of managers as well? What do you say? Yeah, so we've done a few projects. One with a really, really big club some abroad in Serie A in Italy. We've helped to recruit and also within EFL a couple of times now as well. And yeah, so we always say like, again, look at the raw statistics of a manager, win percentage, all that type of thing. Yes, you can do that, but what's the context and what's the coaching style? What's the personality style? And at that alignment I mentioned earlier, who's going to work well with the owner? Who's going to work well with the squad they've got? So yeah, you can look at how coaches have set their teams up in the past. You can watch the games that they've coached. But I think everyone would probably agree that if you took Pep Guardiola and put him in charge of Oldham Athletic, it's not going to instantly transform them overnight. It's going to take several years of... Yeah, he would do a really good job, I'm sure. And he would set them up, but they wouldn't be beating Manchester City just because the playing staff is completely different. So a bit like the Dwight Gale thing you had earlier, where you're coaching in the championship and you get promoted to the Premier League and say you've been a really full dominant team in the championship. You've had 70% possession. You've 10 chances a game. You come into the Premier League. You're not going to have that. So if you compare the championship season to the Premier League season, it's going to be like you're looking at two completely different teams. So what we always say to clubs is you've got to consider the whole circumstances, the personality, the types of coach the guy does. And he's certainly in terms of when you're looking at a sporting director and a head coach versus a manager model, you might look at maybe David Moyes when he was at Everson was the main man by far and he was in charge and he had full control over every aspect of that club. And then maybe when Roberto came in, he was more of a head coach and was happy to delegate some of the other stuff to other people, which in some ways is good and in some ways because as a club, if you're looking at it, you don't want to give full control to someone to take over and run your whole club. But then on the other hand, it makes it hard when you have a personality of a coach he then blames. So maybe when a more recent Everton manager would have had problems with the medical department, for example. And you see these fallouts and it just then creates a terrible atmosphere within the club because people are pointing fingers and it's not collaborative. So I think that's where people like Graham Potter have developed really good reputations because they've gone in, they've said, I'm the coach, I will work with the director of football, we'll be collaborative, we'll work together to get this club as good as it can be. I don't want full control over recruitment, but I want my say on the players. I don't want full control over medical, but I'll be part of a, almost like a managing board of the club that comes together regularly. And someone like Dan Ashworth, who was the Brighton, is now at Newcastle, is very good at managing people. So we've also done work recruiting sporting directors for clubs as well. So it's always like finding those people in the industry who work in the way that clubs want to work nowadays, which is far more collaborative. And they're huge. I mean, a Premier League football club can have hundreds of people working for it and real specialists in those departments. And the idea that one guy, a manager, is also a medical expert is ridiculous when you've got fully qualified doctors, several doctors, several like fully qualified physios working in the medical department. I don't think a manager who walks in and says, no, he's fit, I've seen him running, should be able to overrule the medical department. Advice, and likewise, I don't think they should be able to go into recruitment and say, I really like this player, he was brilliant against us. And that kind of trumps the work of done by 20 people in the department who have watched every single player and spent months grading them and ranking them appropriately. So you need personalities who fit in with the way the club works. And some do still want an autocratic manager who's the main man and in charge. And I certainly think if you look at Liverpool, Klop is definitely the front man. Michael Edwards was a sporting director. Do you ever see or hear anything of him in the press? Never. So kind of behind the scenes, but obviously what he does behind the scenes is brilliant. But he's happy for Klop to have the limelight and be the face of the club. And so you just need people who blend together. And if Klop was maybe less of a personality, you'd need your sporting director to be more of the leader at the club. But you just got to find the right balance. So, yeah, we spent a lot of time looking just beyond the basic performance stats and into the personalities. Fantastic. Andy, just very quickly, tell me why a manager shouldn't have... Tim's just touched on it, but in your opinion, why a manager? Because if I'm a head coach and you're recommending players and I don't think... I don't think that I'm going to use them, you do get a situation, you've just seen it. We've seen it at Bournemouth, say, early on. Scott Parker was like, yeah, we brought people in, but we've got to spend more money if you want to survive in the Premier League or whatever. So why shouldn't a manager have full control? And, sorry, just two parts of it. And if they don't, can they really be blamed if the team doesn't do well? Well, that's about it again. The second part of the answer is that comes back to collaborative process. And I think for people like myself, it's about buying and often managers have to trust people against themselves about relationships, the relationship between the recruitment departments, the decision makers and the recruitment departments and their coach and staff has to be good because they have to have that trust that you understand their way of thinking, how they want to play and what type of personalities they want to bring in. So it's about getting buy-in, don't be wrong. Sometimes buying is quite easy because say managers are really open. Sometimes you need successful transfers to get buy-in. So you need a player to come in and do really when they go, actually, data really does work for me and these guys know what they're doing. So sometimes it takes time. In terms of managers, I'm in total control. The reason I don't believe it works like that is because managers much like players leave. And if you build a team, now, don't be wrong. I understand why Liverpool, I understand why Manchester City have built their clubs in their managers' image. They both end it really. You know, Clop, you know, we took a little bit more time at Liverpool about 18 months, two seasons to get going. Manchester City, if you think about it, it starts built for Pep in 2012 when it changed the academy when Tizigie Bergastien came in. They changed all of how they worked and the academy and eventually you produced players like Fulfo, who knew already to play in Pep system and Colp Armour and people like that. But no, I think that's the main crux of it really, is that, you know, the club should not be beholden to a manager. They should be able to continue to work to do and post the manager. And I think that's why some clubs have made the mistakes. You know, we obviously know one that's done that way. It's been heavily set around the manager's decision making and keeping that manager happy rather than the club having their own identity and find the managers who fit in with that. Much like players do, but then once they move on, sacks, resign, whatever it may be, you can bring someone else in. It may tweaks things slightly, of course. Not every manager is the same. It's hard to find managers who are exactly the same. But finding someone who can continue that way and use the players that they have. You know, obviously, when Pep first came to Manchester City, we didn't have fullbacks. We spent about £200 million on fullbacks. Not only teams got that luxury, so identifying a manager who fits with the team and the players you've got and obviously you're also going to recruit, but you're not going to be able to recruit a whole new team, a whole new style. So it's about that fit. But now, for me, the reasons managers shouldn't have full control is because of that. I think if you... I think also managers don't have the time anymore. I think there's a lot more that goes into being a manager now than maybe under David Moyes' era. There's probably, obviously, there's so much more information on hand that, you know. You know, managers often look at players they've seen play against them. Managers have a lot of time to go and look at video day in and day out and go to watch players in Europe. I know some of them are more used to the times, but it's very hard to be able to do all of that and find them the right players. So it's a relationship with the recruitment department that allows them to find players they want them around. Managers should still have a major input in recruitment, of course they should, because it's their team. As someone once said, you never sign a player that only a manager wants. You never sign a player the manager doesn't want. So that's the philosophy really, but as long as everyone's happy with signing a player, then signing a player has to be within the confines of the club structure and where they're heading. I think in the past clubs have tended to sign players who are managers players and then when they've left, you're sending them to take, as people have said, or you stuck with them for that five-year contract. So it's about making the right decisions overall for a club and what's in the club's best interests, not just individuals' best interests. Excellent, excellent. Well, we'll see the big test and I will see a bright moment. We were obviously, Roberto, there's a bees coming and it's going to be interesting to see whether he can do well. Have they planned properly? They took the time over it. So, and you imagine Brighton will have done their homework and he had Sasio Olo playing some excellent stuff. So it'll be interesting to see what he does. Finally then, I'll come to you first, Tim. What do you think the future of data in football is and have you seen a change in the small, well, I say the small time, a few years in football already? Have you seen a change? So have you seen changes in football since you've been involved and where do you think the future is for data within it? Yes, there's definitely been a change. I'd say pretty much every club now has access to data platforms. There's YSCAT, there's Statsbun, there's OPTA. There's the process data that the likes of us provide, which has got another kind of bit of processing done to it to make it more relevant to them. So everyone has access to it. I think there's definitely things like tracking data and things coming into football, which is far more than just like counting how many shots a player's had, which was the first step, second step was where they took those shots from on a kind of coordinates and then working out. And that's been really good for finding players. Like talent identification would call it is really been stepped up a lot by that. And I'd say you could look at most players now anywhere in the world and you could get good data for them. It's then how you use that and how you interpret it. I think that's the next level and that's where I think the gap in the market still is. It's the interpretation and the making sure that all your processes and the things line up so you know what a good player looks like in data for your system. So not just are this one's got all the green bars or green and this one's looks worse. Like a really good example of the context is Alex O'Wobee this season. So we would look and say he's gone up a level. If you look at his basic data profiles on some systems he looks worse. It looks like he's not anywhere near as good as he was last season. And so Andy and I were looking at the other day thinking this is odd because to our eyes he's obviously gone up levels. The thing is his role has changed, he's playing deeper. So he's not picking up the ball as high up the pitch in his threatening areas. He's putting in, he was in a team last year that couldn't retain the ball. So he was having to have lots of opportunities to turn the ball over more so than this season. Even though his success rate are turning over the ball this season, it's higher. Last season he was just involved in more changes of possession. So that made inflated the data. It was more of that last season as well. It's more of a team that he was picking up the ball and driving at players. And this time he's probably passing into the forward players. So again his kind of breaks from the central areas look worse. So you've got to take the data, yes, and use it, but you've got to apply the context of it and you do that by advanced data. So we've got things that pick that up that probably aren't available to the general public. But you've also then got the watching of the player and it was always going to be involved in the process to do it. But yeah, so I'd say the availability of data is higher than ever. But I still think there's very few clubs who I would say have a full kind of data informed processes within their clubs. So they might have access to all the information and they might do great stuff in the background with it. But when it comes to which player shall we sign and what should we do in training this week and how do we decide whether we're doing well or not, I think that type of thing is still missing at quite a few clubs that you'd expect to have that type of thinking involved. And that always comes down to ownership and it comes down to just making sure the long-term interests of the club are always the main thought of everyone involved and not just career advancement in the next year or two. Because as Andy says, managers go, sporting directors go, owners go, the only people who are with Cubs for Life are the fans. So if anyone should be thinking long-term about their football clubs and demanding that things are put in place and not worrying about, it's all about next season, it should be us, we should be the ones thinking. For better or worse, obviously, still be supporting this club in 20 years' time, hopefully. I want us to be winning stuff over those 20 years, not just next season. So if anyone's pushing for long-term strategic thinking, it should be the fans. Whilst often it's probably the perception that we're the short termists and we're the ones who want everything now. But I think we need to reset our thinking and be swaying our clubs that we don't worry so much as long as we stay up. By all means, take three or four years to build what you're going to build because we're still going to be here and we want it to be as good as possible. Andy, I'll have to leave the last word to you then. Same for you and only what do you think the future of data and football is and what next for marketing sites you can have the final say. Go on. OK, I'll quickly go with the future data. I think models have become more advanced I think there'll be a lot more granular detail. I think a lot of people work on using both event data with physical data. I think the amalgamation of those is where it's headed. I think basketball did a lot of this really through massive amounts of information at models. But they realised they probably put too much information. So I think there's going to be... We'll have another level, I think, of going up in terms of the use of data. But I also think there'll be a step back situation as well coming in a couple of years where we will, like Tim said, the interpretation and how we use it may change slightly as well. So I think that's going... I think also that the people of clubs who are making these decisions and the people who drive the data will change. You look at baseball now, I think, 29 of the 32, you know, and non-ex players. I think that will evolve in football. I think you'll get more Michael Edwards, who obviously came out of the play for a certain period. We came through a pro zone, for example, which was an early analytics company and a performance company. So I think that will change. The people making the decisions within football will change. In terms of marketing insights, there's a lot going on really in terms of working with investment groups. We've got projects we're looking to do in Africa. I think that's another future of data will be. I think people will want more data in Africa at the moment. Africa is a bit of a black hole in terms of there's not a lot of data for the leagues. I think clubs will want to invest in that. I think that a company that does do that will certainly make money because I think that's where a lot of the next big players are coming from is that, you know, the Senegalge, Ivory Coast, the Cameroon, the Nigerias. And, you know, your Mali's is obviously Salisbury of Sears. So I think that, you know, I think for us, we're looking to expand, you know, we're obviously still looking to work with clubs in terms of recruitment, but we're also looking to work with investors and do strategic planning for clubs and help them build as well. We're also looking to do other projects like our African projects. Outstanding. Outstanding. Well, I think, to be honest, we could probably have another hour doing this and maybe we will, well, maybe we'll be back. Oh, God, absolutely, cos it is fascinating, I love all of this stuff. But for now, a huge thank you to you, Andy, and to you, Tim, for joining me. That was really, really interesting, I loved it. And like I said, it could have gone on for another hour. But thanks very much, Gents, for joining me. No worries. There you go. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. Really interesting and insight there, intermarket insight and an insight to how data is being used in football and the progression of it. So check out Market Insight. Keep looking on Twitter to these two very knowledgeable gentlemen giving you lots of stuff around data. So check it all out. Thanks for watching. We'll see you later.