 In this episode of the Engineering Career Coach podcast, Tony Munson, author of People Skills for Engineers, is going to tell us how we can make a great first impression, how we can impress our manager, and how we can deal with difficult people as engineers. And in our Take Action Today segment at the end, he's going to talk about the difference between giving criticism and correcting others. You're going to love this episode. Let's do it. And now I'm excited to welcome our guest onto the Engineering Career Coach podcast today, Tony Munson. Tony is the author of People Skills for Engineers. Tony, welcome to the podcast. Hey, great to be here. So, Tony, before we dive in and talk about People Skills for Engineers, which you and I both know is critically important for the success of engineers and technical professionals, tell our listeners and viewers a little bit about your career. OK, yeah, this is great. Before I went to the Washington State University, I graduated with a BS in computer science. I spent four years in the Army, which is an interesting environment to be in, almost absent of People Skills, which is kind of funny how I ended up kind of being where I'm at now. But I graduated in 2002 after I did an internship at Agilent Technologies. That was in Fort Collins, Colorado, great place, by the way. Then I took a job at Hewlett Packard here in Boise, Idaho, working as kind of a performance engineer. And then I just gradually over the next 18 years, I worked in developing custom ASICs with firmware engineers, high level, front end development. I worked at Hewlett Packard for 13 years. Now I'm working at, as you can see, I've got some company swag going here. I'm working for Cradle Point now here in Boise, Idaho. And I'm doing a lot of same stuff. They're a SaaS organization, so that's software as a service. We have management software that lives up in the cloud. But I don't want to say I've done it all because there's so much. But I've spent my entire career in a cube working with technical people, mechanical engineers, electrical engineers, computer engineers, computer science. And so I'm keenly aware of the difficulties of working with technical individuals. And that's what kind of drove me to where I'm at now. I guess that's what drove you to write the book, People's Skills for Engineers. Yeah, about seven or eight years ago, I became almost obsessively interested in how humans behave and specifically how we behave to each other. And as I was learning more, I would go to work and I'd be in meetings with other developers, engineers, with management. And think to myself, wow, we could have just sidestepped all of those problems, tore down some of the sandbags, people have drawn battle lines. People just adhered to what I would classify as just common best practices. The problem is is in our field, nobody's getting it. It just doesn't drop out of the sky on us. So we have to go seek it out. And if we don't, we end up just bogged down and a lot of relational, collateral damage that we cause for ourselves. And I looked at it and said, you know what, I think I can help. That's what kind of led me into writing the book. That's great. And what I love about your story is that you are, as you mentioned earlier, you and I were talking offline, you're still in the trenches, you're working as a technical individual, professional with other engineers, technical, professional software developers, whatever the case may be. And you're seeing these problems that arise from the lack of people skills. And you took some action and like you just said, you tried to slow it down yourself a little bit and say, I see this happening. If we just would have done something different, something would have changed. And you know, I appreciate you taking action to write the book and really dive into this a little bit more because quite frankly, you could have just said, you know, this kind of sucks. This is how technical people are. We don't have the training, you know, we have to deal with these situations and it is what it is, but you didn't. So to that point, we're going to go through like some of the different themes that you talk about in the book. And one situation that I thought was pretty interesting from the book is you talk about joining an existing engineering team. You know, it is a situation that a lot of people deal with, whether they are hired onto a new company or they're in a large engineering firm or company and they get moved to a different team or organization. Maybe you could talk about how somebody can approach that situation. Sure. Yeah. Great. I would love to. To me, the way I look at joining an existing team is this is one of those rare opportunities you get in your life to completely reboot your career. You get to dictate how people perceive you. It's kind of like when you graduate high school or graduate college, while you're there, you built up this way that people view you. And then when it's over, you get to start fresh again and say, hey, you know what? What didn't work last time? What did work? I'm going to use what did work, the things that didn't work. I'm going to try to make better. And so one of the very first things, and this may seem obvious to some, is be keenly aware of first impressions. As technical people, we can get super lazy in our social interactions. And I think it's because we've bought into this whole, oh, well, I'm a technical person. So the only thing that really matters is my technical ability. All, you know, wear my, my Torah shorts and Star Wars shirts with, I don't have anything wrong with that spine. But when we're trying, when we're trying to make first impressions, this is the opportunity to recalibrate the next three, four, five years. And so I go through the book. I'm like, you know, typically when you join a team, especially if you join a new company for the first week or two, you're meeting with a bunch of new people. These could be directors. These could be vice presidents. And you're not going to have a whole lot of interaction with these individuals after this first round. So you need to make sure that you look the part. You talk the part. You present yourself in a professional manner. That you, you're really, you're allowing them to basically see, and I don't want to say it like a canned way, but you're, you're aware of the implications of these very small segments of time. One time somebody told me this and it stuck with me is that people will take what they do know about you and map it out to other areas of your life. This is why it's so important to pay attention to how you speak, how you dress, you know, what you say when you don't think people are listening is because people will take that small slice of your life, what they, what they do know and go, oh, well, they must be this way in other areas. So, you know, I'm a father. I have a 13 to 16 year old. That's why I tell them you really need to pay attention to what you say because people will judge other areas of you. And it's that way joining a new team. The very first thing they see about you is your first batch of work is sloppy, not well thought out. You're just trying to go fast to impress people. They'll just assume that, oh, OK, well, this is the kind of person that we've hired on and and now you've lost a little ability, a little bit of control of your situation. So obviously first and foremost is first impressions. And then quickly have a couple of other things. You know, be in listen mode. I know as technical people, we like to come in even if we we know, you know, how to do things. We need to think about the team that we're coming in there, right? So you have a maybe existing team of six people. There's this new guy and this new guy's coming in or gal and saying, oh, OK, this is how we should do it. It's like, well, who are you? I don't know you. And yes, it's it's we want to come in and quickly establish ourselves. But there are dynamics and teams that you would be wise to observe. And my book, I call it like that the nerd ladder or the technical pecking order is some people that their position is very, very valuable to them. And it means a lot to them. And you have someone coming in challenging that. I think in my book, I use an analogy of a chicken getting stomped out in the corner of a pen because there's a there's a hierarchy, apparently, in chicken world. And so just being aware of that laying back, surveying the landscape, and especially if you've been brought in as a technical lead, first and foremost, is connect with your people, get to know them before you try to lead them, because you will save yourself much anguish and much grief. Been there, done that, learn from my mistakes, avoid the minefield. Just don't do it. Yeah, that's that's great stuff. And and and I get what you're saying. It's like, you know, as you become part of a team and you become more comfortable with people, sure, you might, you know, kind of, you know, with the way you talk and the way you dress, you know, you may get a little bit more comfortable, quote, unquote, or wherever the case may be. But, you know, when you go in, people are looking at you and saying, you know, this person, I'm judging them right now. I'm based on what I see because I know nothing else. Right. And so I can see how critically important that is. So one of the other things, Tony, that you talk about in your book, that I'm sure our listeners and viewers would love to hear about is impressing your manager, right? Everyone has managers and they're always, you know, interested in, of course, looking good in front of them and pressing them because it probably is tied to their development. Talk about impressing your manager a little bit. Yeah, there's a few things that come come to mind specifically when it comes to impressing your manager. I think first and foremost is to take personal responsibility for your failures. One thing I've noticed in my 18 years is managers don't expect perfection. They expect refinement and predictability. So, you know, if we mess up as as technical resources, as individual contributors, just own it, don't blame other people because that makes us look bad to blame, especially if we've missed it in some way. I've been in meetings where it almost turns into like a courtroom with people, you know, presenting their facts over here and presenting their facts over here of why it wasn't their fault. And in the end, man, it can be refreshing for someone to just stand up and be like, hey, you know what, I blew it. Like, I should have known better. I did it this way. It didn't work out. However, this is what I've learned and it will not happen again in the future. That is very impressive to management. Be honest and forthcoming with information. And what I mean by that is. Always keep your manager up to date, even if it kind of makes you look better, that you've dropped the ball somehow is that matter. I mean, as technical resources, we're kind of the eyes and the ears for the managers and if they don't know anything's wrong because we're not telling them, they won't know anything is wrong. And if we own the 11th hour, say, hey, we're not going to be able to deliver because of this, they will not be happy. A quote that one of my managers uses is the only thing worse than bad news is bad news late. So I always even even if it turns out of maybe crying wolf is keep my manager informed and say, hey, you know, I see some storm clouds rolling in on the horizon here, that gives them the ability to make a contingency plan and maybe get at the root of that problem. So I don't deliver late. They don't deliver late and they don't look bad. So thirdly here, I got a couple small things. We need to drive our own work. That's super impressive to managers. I think categorically, everyone says that they dislike to be micromanaged. But that means we need to drive our own work. We need to show that we don't need to be micromanaged. So I mean, scheduling all the necessary meetings, following up on the details, putting design documents together. If we have to, whatever your discipline is, but really saying, this is my deliverable, I own this. And if I need help, I'm going to bring in the necessary help, including management. So that's very impressive to managers. And then lastly, managers like to see it when you positively contribute to team morale. The morale of your team is super valuable. I've seen people leave companies because of problems with their team and problems with morale. And so it's impressive to management when you positively contribute to that. When they openly see you appreciate people or call out things that they've done well. That creates more of a cohesive, just even fun environment. Managers love that. That's like manager crack. So so remember, those are those are just a handful of things that you can do to impress your manager. That's great. And it's funny. Some of those points when listening to you, I feel like it's they can be in terms of impressing your manager. And also some of the conversations that I have with my young kids, which is, you know, if you do something wrong, it's not the end of the world unless I find out about it from somebody else. Right. It's the same idea. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, managers, their career is contingent on the performance of the people they manage. So when we're missing it, they miss it. And that makes everyone look bad. And you do not want to make your manager look bad. So I'd like to think that every manager is mature enough to handle situations in mature ways, but we're not. Yeah, no, it's it's I mean, everyone's human. And, you know, you have to deal with with things that come up and different people, which kind of leads right into the next question that I have for you, which is another topic that you touched on in your book, People, Skills for Engineers, which is everyone's different. And some people are more difficult to deal with than others, for sure. Right. There's no engineering equation for how to deal with people. So what advice can you share with if someone does have a difficult person on their team or that they have to deal with on a regular basis to help them to deal with that person or navigate that relationship? OK, yeah, that's a really good question. Now that I'm 43, as you probably can tell with the gray in my beard now. I've there's some things that I've experienced that allow me to just get a little perspective on dealing with others. Yes, there's a lot of sort of training and investigating I've done, but just practically walking it out in my life is learned first and foremost, dealing with difficult people is just learn to cut people slack. You know, give them some grace. A perfect example of this would would be, I think my son might have been in first grade and his teacher was just not a pleasant person to be around. And I would sit there and be like, how can how can she even be a teacher behaving like this? Well, it turns out her mom had terminal cancer and the stress of dealing that was just bleeding over into into her work environment, which the exact same thing can happen to us as technical people. And so I've learned, you know, I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. And while it's not necessarily my best or my responsibility to to dig out a scab and try to figure that out, but there's a lot that goes into what makes up a person. And so there's individuals dealing with some pretty hard stuff and we may be just dealing with the symptoms of it. So that's one of them. I just try to view it more of let me give a little more grace here. Second is just learn to forgive people. And that's not some newfangled religious or spiritual concept at all. What it does is allows us to keep from carrying baggage around every single interaction. You know, sometimes we just flat out will never even know why people behave the way they do. They could maybe they're out to get us. I don't know. But we always get a choice in how we respond to that. And so forgiveness is I kind of look at it like water off a duck's back. It's like, you know what? Who knows? Yeah, if I let it, that probably could be hurtful. But guess what? I forgive them. I'm moving on. I got other things. I'm not going to let this person rent space in my brain. We're done. Just that alone allows us to just carry less of a load. You know, analogy that's used is every time you don't forgive someone or take offense, it's like throwing a rock in your backpack. And so a few of those rocks is fine. But man, there's people I know currently in my life that are not only carrying a backpack full of rocks, they're pulling around a trailer with rocks in it as well. That just slows you down and that contributes to just frustration and anger and stress and sickness. It's just not worth it. So that's that's another key principle. I touched on a little, just refused to be offended. Just refused to let people get to you. Like some people are going to say offensive things. I'm just not going to receive it. I'm just moving on. I got bigger things I'm trying to do in my life than get bogged down in the mud. And lastly here, this is a good reminder for all of us is you do reap what you sow. Or sometimes you refer to as karma or what goes around comes around and make sure that you're not behaving in the exact same way you're accusing others of behaving. It's very easy to look at someone else and just go down the laundry list of deficiencies, not realizing like, oh, wait a second, I just described myself and I'm only getting returned to me what I'm putting out there. So those are a few things that can help us deal with difficult people. That's great. And really what I what I kind of hear from from all the answers to that question is it's a lot about, you know, your mindset and approach and response to these types of people, right? Because you get in a situation where you have I mean, you're always going to have to deal with difficult people. There's really no way around it. I mean, it's just part of it's kind of part of life, not just engineering. The way you respond to them is really critical. I remember like when I was going through coaching school, executive coaching school, one of the trainers told us when you think about these situations with difficult people or somebody who might be angry, it's kind of like your response to them is almost like a magnet, right? So like if you get back angry at them, then anger is coming back. If you try to take a different approach, like you said, and be a little forgiving, then, you know, they may be kind of a little bit more forgiving. And so it's almost like a mirror. And so that's I think a really important part of that dynamic because the kind of the instinctive response is let me go back at them, right? So we have to like hone that in a little bit. Well, let me just point out quickly on what you said to your audience members listening right now, you know, speaking directly to them. I know every single one of you has a difficult person or multiple difficult people in your life. And my question to you would be, you know, using the the sewing and reaping analogy, what seeds are you planting with them? Are you planting seeds that you would expect to get back what you want? Are we just stoking the flames and making it worse? It's just totally unrealistic to sew one particular type of seed. You're sewing in anger, gossip, criticism, frustration, like all this stuff into them. And just all of a sudden expect them to take the high road and go, you know what, I now see the error of my ways. I apologize. It's like, no, at some point, somebody in that relationship has to put on the big boy pants and be an adult. And the way I look at it is it may as well be me, it may as well be you to be the one that just is like extends the proverbial olive branch. So just remember that. Think what I'm not what I think I'm saying, but like, what am I actually saying and doing that would make this better? Because if we're not doing anything that would make it better, we shouldn't expect it to get better. Yeah, no, for sure. That's that's definitely solid advice. All right. So we covered some interesting points here from Tony's book, People, Skills for Engineers. We've talked about, you know, making first impressions when joining a new team, talked about some different things that you can do to impress your manager as an engineer, specifically, you know, giving them bad news, ASAP, as opposed to trying to avoid it and it can just get worse. And we also just talked about kind of dealing with difficult people and, you know, your response to them is a really important aspect of that. So what we're going to do now is we're going to come back in a minute and in our take action today segment, I'm going to ask Tony to help us think about ways that we can give constructive criticism or correct someone on an engineering project, which happens a lot and is not an easy thing to do. So we'll be right back with that. All right, we're back with Tony Munson, author of People, Skills for Engineers. So, Tony, we've been talking a lot about kind of interacting with people as an engineer or technical professional and one of the interactions that you'll have to have at some point in your career as an engineer, most likely as a manager, but maybe even just as a team member is, you know, providing constructive criticism when someone doesn't meet your expectations or correcting someone. And we know that some people don't take well to that. So what are some pieces of advice that you can share on kind of that tricky situation? OK, that's a great question. First, I like to delineate between criticism and correction. Criticism, its main objective is to just inflict pain and potentially to get someone to the line, which is way different than correction, which is to effectively is to help someone maybe see a way that they they could do something better and to kind of guide and mentor them. So my first question I like to ask myself when approaching someone when I think that I need to correct them is what's my end game here? What's my goal? Is is is my goal here to actually help? Because if so, that's the right motive. If my goal is to just point out deficiencies for the sake of making myself look better, making myself look better in a team environment. That is not the right way to do it. So I like to I typically like to sit back and just ask myself, can I help? What are my motives? And more importantly, does does the person really need to be corrected? I work with technical people all day long and the amount of time we will spend talking about things that make no difference just because they need to be perfectly correct or they think they need to be perfectly correct. You know, it's like, oh, yeah, I went to this place and it was 110 miles away. Well, actually, it was 109.87. It's like, oh, my gosh, I mean, just so that that right there can set a lot of people free. Do I really need to correct someone? Is something at stake? And if so, what's my motive? Is it to help? And if it is to help, then there's different ways that you can do it. And those are pretty common as far as, you know, do it in private, correct? In private, you know, ask questions to lead people to the problem areas. You've heard, everyone's probably heard of the sandwich approach, you know, where you put, you know, you sandwich a correction in between kind of two positive things. I like my bread thick. So when someone's correcting me, I like thick Texas toast size bread on the side of mine. But yeah, a lot of times you don't even get in the details of the correction itself. It's more of just high level. What's my end game? And what do I want to be the result of this correction? Because you can correct someone and come out looking much stronger than you did going in. Sometimes we look at correction as a bad thing, but done correctly. Man, you can gain a lot of interpersonal capital with the people around you. That's great. And really what it sounds like a little bit based on your kind of your answer there is there may be situations where you have to decide between criticism and correcting, because I know that for managers that I've had as an engineer, they might look at a plan that I worked on and they very simply could have corrected me. But instead they, you know, criticized me and then eventually corrected me. So maybe it's like, you know, using those two actions in the right way, so to speak. Yeah, it's just it's to be aware that there's more than just this specific situation happening right now. There's this whole relational soup of you, that person, everyone on the team and to rise above that and to be able to look down on it and say, what course of action is going to set me up better next week, next month, next year? Yeah, you can get your super quick fix of putting someone in their place, which criticism will usually do that for you. But what does it look like tomorrow and next week? I mean, as we grow and mature as people, these are the types of questions we need to ask ourselves. Awesome. So once again, we're speaking with Tony Munson, author of People Skills for Engineers, and we went through quite a bit here in this episode with Tony, a lot of really good kind of actions that you can take, whether it's, you know, impressing your manager, making first impressions, dealing with difficult people. And now in the take action segment here, we talked about, you know, the difference between criticism and correction and, you know, just how to think ahead before you start to do these things and what the consequences of your actions may be. Tony, this has all been great information. We're so happy that you took some time to come on the podcast and, you know, just share this information with us. And you're I believe your book is available on Amazon. If people want to check it out, is that right? Yeah, absolutely. It I wrote it first and foremost for myself to remind myself, but I wrote it for the people closest to me that I work with. And I knew if it could help me and help them, it could help everyone else. And it's not specific to any type of engineering, discipline or technical discipline in there. There's lots in there for everyone. If you think it could help, pick it up. Awesome. Tony Monson, author of People's Skills for Engineers. Thank you for spending some time on the Engineering Career Coach podcast. Yes, sir. Happy to be here. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please leave your comments and or questions in the comments section below this video. Also, if you'd like to view the full show notes for this episode, visit Engineering Management Institute dot org or see the link in the video description. There you will find the key points discussed in today's episode, as well as links to any of the resources, websites or books mentioned during the episode. Until next time, I wish you the best in all your engineering career endeavors.