 everyone and welcome back to our R3 stage in Monheim. The next talk is a really interesting one. Stefania Maurizzi will let us know why we must save Julian Assange and WikiLeaks. And as an intro, let me quickly start with a high level recap. So as you know, Julian Assange founded WikiLeaks in 2006 and starting April 2010, WikiLeaks published a series of war crimes committed by the US government. And that same government then launched a criminal investigation into WikiLeaks. As a result, Mr. Julian Assange is currently being held at a high security present in the UK on the basis of a US extradition request on charges that directly stem from his work with WikiLeaks. In other words, he's incarcerated for simply doing his job. Investigative journalist Stefania Maurizzi and her colleague Nikki Hager are our speakers today. And Stefania is not only a firsthand witness working with Mr. Assange within the Ecuadorian embassy, but also a witness before the UK court. Stefania and Nikki will not only detail their work by documenting some of the most obscure aspects of the long-term campaign of attacks against WikiLeaks, but also give us a wake-up call. What does it actually mean to all of us when democracies declare criminal behavior as state secret and then let journalists who reveal these crimes end up with severe human rights violations with torture or even murder? And what about the freedom of speech as the foundation of a democracy? Stefania, I hope you're online now. Yes, thank you. So I would like to give you a very warm welcome and I think we are all looking forward to your talk and also to you and Nikki to give us some answers to how far journalism can actually go in Western democracies today. I'll turn my mic off now and the stage is yours. Welcome back. Thank you, Patricia. And thank you to the Chaos Computer Club. I wonder whether Nikki is already connected because they wanted to go first. So I'm checking with you whether he is online. Can you see him? You're still on your own. I would suggest that I give you a hint as soon as he joins, but at the moment it's you. Okay, fine. I'm happy with this and I hope he will join because he's a very good journalist and he can tell many things about WikiLeaks. So first of all, thank you. And let me introduce myself because your introduction was really good, but I want to explain what kind of work I have done in the last 11 years. So basically I'm an Italian journalist. I'm an investigative journalist working for the major Italian daily Fatto Quotidiano. And I work for the Italian newspaper, La Repubblica and the Italian news magazine, Les Presso. And the reason why I'm here is to discuss with you this work as a media partner of WikiLeaks from the very beginning. Basically back in 2009 when very few had even heard about WikiLeaks because WikiLeaks had not published its bombshells like the collateral murder or the gun war logs and the cables. So throughout the last 11 years, I have worked not just on the WikiLeaks case on the Julian Assange case, but also on all that documents. And one of the first things I want to explain you is why this work is crucial, why these revelations have been so important. You have to realize that the first time I look at WikiLeaks was back in 2008, and it immediately impressed me. Why? Because they had published the Guantanamo manual. And you have to realize that the ACLU, the American Civil Liberties Union, had tried to get a copy of that manual using the Freedom of Information Act. They didn't succeed. There was no way to get a copy of it. But fortunately, thanks to a bold whistleblower, that document was leaked to WikiLeaks and Julian Assange WikiLeaks published it. So it was amazing for me to realize that they were able to get a document that even a prominent organization like the American Civil Liberties Union had been unable to get. And not only that, they were able to publish it, even if the Pentagon had basically asked them to remove that copy from their website. I'm not sure if you realize what it means to say no to the Pentagon. I mean, I have been in this business. I have been in the business of journalism. I have been a journalist for the last 19 years. I had never heard of a single media organization saying no to the Pentagon. So for the first time, I looked at the WikiLeaks website back in 2008 and I saw how they were not just able to get the Guantanamo manual, but also to say no to the Pentagon. For me, it was really pretty incredible. I mean, I couldn't believe it. You need to be very bold to say no to the Pentagon. Because you realize there are legal and extra legal power all around the world. And really, actually, and I had never heard of a single media organization saying no to the Pentagon. So for me, it was really refreshing to see that you have such media organization willing to say no to the Pentagon and to get this kind of documents. And it was especially important in those days. I'm not sure if you realize those were the years where the New York Times and the Washington Post published a lot of lies which basically helped to justify the Iraq war or they published, they refused to use the term torture for the CIA torture and they were using enhanced interrogation techniques. So I mean, the media was really, really timid in those days. So the fact that they were so bold and they were able to get those documents was really important and really refreshing to me. So you have to realize that after those publications back at the very early days of 2009, 2010 when I started publishing, the documents as media partner, it was amazing to see the kind of documents that were able to publish like the Afghan war logs, like the Iraq war logs, the cables and the Guantanamo files which are the very same documents for which now in these days, Julian Assange is ending up in prison for life, 175 years. He's indicted and the US is asking his extradition precisely for these publications and these publications have been so important. I'm not sure if people realize how important we journalists who spend our day looking for this kind of information shared by secrecy, we can understand the full importance of these documents. Let me give you an example. Let me take the cables. So the cables, for example, published back in 2008 allowed to reveal among other things how the US authorities, how the US diplomacy had put pressure on the Italian authorities, on the Italian politicians in order not to have the arrest warrant for the CIA agents involved in the extraordinary rendition of a Buomar and then I will explain to you who is a Buomar and thanks to this pressure, unfortunately due to these pressures, basically the Italian politicians refuse to forward the arrest warrant to send the arrest warrant to the US and this basically ended up in having the CIA agents granted impunity. So even if Italy was able to nail the CIA agents involved in the extraordinary rendition of this guy, a Buomar who was a Milan cleric, he was kidnapped in the middle of the day in Milan, basically. Even if our prosecutor was amazing, they were able to use phone metadata in order to nail the CIA agents, they were able to put them on trial in absentia, they were able to get the final sentence. Even if our prosecutors have been amazing in getting all these and we were the only count, we are the only country in the world, Italy is the only country in the world which basically got the final sentence for the CIA 26 US nationals, most of them, almost all of them CIA agents. However, six justice ministers refused to send the arrest warrant to the US and basically we could guess that basically the US put pressure on Italian politicians but without the cables, we would have been unable to get the evidence, solid evidence of these pressures by the US authorities on the Italian authorities. Only thanks to the cables it was possible to get this evidence, only thanks to the cables it was possible to reveal how the Italian authority was spying on the pacifist, activist, trying to stop the trains bringing weapons for the Iraq war. Only thanks to the cables it was possible to reveal how they stop our precedent stopping the troops from Italy to Iraq. So it was only thanks to these documents that we got evidence, evidence of state criminality we could guess, we could imagine of course but we had no evidence, we had no evidence whatsoever because everything was shielded by secrecy. So when I got these documents I was so excited for the first time I could have solid evidence of the state criminality and this all around the world not just about Italy or about France, about the UK but countries all around the world. These documents have been amazing and 10 years after I keep using each time I need information to acquire some classified information I still access this database. It's not just me but look at the Washington Post journalist when Khashoggi was killed by the Saudi authorities. The first thing they did, they just accessed the WikiLeaks website looking for information. So this information has proved to be so valuable, so important that virtually there is no journalist that is not using this information. So I mean for me it's really, you know it's really upsetting to see that just for publishing these documents today Julian Assange and actually not just Julian Assange risk ending up in prison for life, in a maximum security prison for life just for revealing this, just for revealing these abuses, torture, extraordinary rendition and extrajudicial killings by drone. So how can I accept this? I have worked on the very same revelations for the last 10 years. I have published the very same revelations not just me that hundreds of journalists all around the world from the Washington Post to the Guardian to the Hindu, all people, reporters, investigative journalists have been using these documents for a decade. None of us have been in trouble. None of us had any problem whatsoever. I mean none of us was not even questioned or arrested but whereas Julian Assange has never known freedom again you have to realize that I have worked on these documents and I have worked as a media partner for the last 11 years and you have to realize that in these 11 years I was able to meet Julian Assange as a free man for the last time the 28th of September, 2010 we met in Alexanderplatz in Berlin with Christine Rafson, the current editor of Wikileaks. We met to work on the Afghan war logs. I left him in Alexanderplatz. That was the last time I met Julian Assange as a free man. After that meeting I have always worked with Julian Assange confined somewhere initially under house arrest then seven years in the Ecuadorian embassy then now in prison. So 10 years always confined. 10 years in such serious situation where his health collapsed. For me it has been really not just upsetting but also painful to realize how he has been treated how he had been denied proper medical treatment inside the embassy. How he had been denied one hour outdoors per day which basically we Italian give even to mafia killers and some of the worst people in our country. So the treatment of Julian Assange really upset me. The treatment of his journalist how the doc for example how their communication were secretly provided by Google to the US authorities. I'm talking about Sarah Harrison, Christine Rafson and Joseph Farrell whose emails were secretly provided by Google to the US authorities. I'm talking how all of them and actually even me have been spied inside the embassy the Ecuadorian embassy with all our devices and conversations and meetings recorded and spied on. So I mean this has been so upsetting. This has been so upsetting. Not just because, you know, it's upsetting. You have to realize what has been like to work in this condition. I mean, I have been always safe. I was never, as I said, I have never been arrested. I have never been questioned. I have never been put in prison. I experienced tailing. I experienced I was physically attacked and stolen very important information, very important documents which never surfaced again. I was spied inside the Ecuadorian embassy but at the end of the day, I have been safe. I have done this work safely. If you compare my situation with the situation of Julian Assange and the situation of the weekly journalist, I have been safe. And what terrified me about this work is not what I have experienced because I have not experienced any scary things apart from these minor things. What terrified me is basically the fact that I have seen how he has been treated, how his sources have been treated, how his journalists have been treated. He basically tried to find a place to be protected. He not a place to hide. He wasn't trying to get a place to hide. He was trying to get a place to be protected. He went to Sweden, which is famous for his freedom of speech and it didn't work. He went to the embassy, tried to take refuge in the embassy, didn't work. It worked, actually it worked for seven years at a very high price. He was confined with no proper medical treatment. He felt was collapsing, but at least for seven years he was protected in a certain sense. But at the end, he was put out of the, he was basically denied asylum at the end. His asylum was revoked and now he's in prison for life. So he tried to get protection somehow. He tried to get a place to hide. He tried to with the UN. And again, it worked. The UN working group on arbitrary detention established that he had been arbitrary detained by Sweden and by the UK since 2010. But the UK completely ignored this decision. Then he tried with the UN special rapporteur on torture, Nils Melzer. And again, it worked. Nils Melzer established that he has been psychologically tortured. But again, the UK and the US authorities keep ignoring this decision by the UN special rapporteur. So at the end of the day, there is no place to be protected for him. And this is the most terrifying things for me. I have seen that after all this state criminality, after all this impunity, none of the CIA people put in prison. None of the torturers put in prison. None of the people involved in drone killings and killings of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, none of them put in prison. Who are those put in prison? Who are those who are paying the highest price? Those who reveal this crime, this state criminality. For me, this has been terrifying. It has been terrifying to realize this because this is not happening in North Korea. This is happening in our democracies. So this is why we must save Julian Assange and WikiLeaks. We must save them because he must be possible in our democracy to reveal war crimes, to reveal the crimes behind extraordinary conditions, behind the drone killings, behind the war in Afghanistan and Iraq and to be completely safe. This is what freedom of the press in our democracy is to me. Thank you. Yes, indeed. Thank you, Stefan. I mean, this was really impressive. And I think you can guess the first question already, which we get from the audience. And that of course is, what does the Brexit mean for Julian's situation? What, sorry, what? What does the Brexit? So the UK leaving the European Union mean for Julian's situation? Well, it's hard to say at this stage because of course, we don't know what is going to happen. At the same day, we are lucky enough that even if Britain leaves the European Union, at the same time it remains in the Council of Europe. And so Julian Assange can at least appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. The problem is that basically he has spent so many years confined that this legal process will require us here and he cannot, you know, his health is collapsing. His health is collapsing. Can he go ahead for two or three years considering his condition, he's in prison, in a high security prison during a pandemic. He can get COVID anytime. His health is already seriously compromised. So will it be able to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights or it will be too late? That's what terrifies me, you know? Yeah, so I'm now personally interpreting but I think this question is also maybe related to the fact that what you alluded before, I mean, Sweden, UK, we're not talking about autocratic banana republics. We are talking about, you know, EU members and solid democracies and still they did what they did. So I think the question is more related if you think it could get even worse for him. Not sure this is applicable if it can get worse at all but could it get worse for Julian when the UK leaves the European Union next year? As I said, it's hard to assess what is going to happen. I don't think there is anyone who knows what is going to happen. Of course it can be worse but the real problem is whether his health will collapse in prison is completely isolated due to COVID and this comes after 10 years he has been isolated, confined without access to proper medical treatment, without access to sunlight. So his situation was already difficult enough, you know? And now he's in a high security prison in the middle of a pandemic, completely isolated. And we're terrified about the risk that he can be extradited anytime because look, I have spent the last five years trying to get the documents about this case from using Freedom of Information Act. And what was clear, what is clear thanks to this litigation is that the UK authorities have no problem at all about extraditing a publisher, a journalist, who it is, were crying, like if they are extraditing a mafia killer or a drug dealer or also kind of worst of the worst criminal. So they don't care at all about the fact that they are dealing with the extradition of a journalist who revealed tremendously important information and this is the scandal, you know? This is a complete scandal. This extradition case should have never ever started. Should have never never started, you know? We have not extradited and we published the very same documents. So why they do extradite him, you know? And they are crushing him physically and mentally. And the UN Special Rapporteur, who is a very serious person who is called to evaluate this kind of torture and human rights abuses, not someone whose judgment is like mine. I'm not an expert on torture. He visited him, he assessed him with two doctors specializing in torture. So it's someone who did solid work and no one cares. I mean, the UK keep ignoring and the British press is doing very little about this case, which is of extreme concern. Yeah, I think at least in the audience, we have a lot of, we have a lot more questions. So people do care, at least a few here at our C3. So the next question is, how is his defense currently organized? What are his lawyer's strategies? Do you know? Yeah, I mean, his lawyers are, some of them are top expert on extradition, on human rights and so on. So I mean, I'm confident in his lawyers and some of them are top notch professionals. So the problem is this kind of laws, extradition laws and the UK approach to extradition, as I said, because you know, this is a political case. There is no doubt. And the fact that we are not, we have not arrested and indicted and no one asked for our extradition, provide you evidence that this is a political case. Is it about Julian Assarch, they want to crush him to set an example and they don't start doing this with the New York Times and powerful institutions like the Washington Post. They always use these techniques. They always do, even with the Islamic terrorists, they always use these techniques in order to have you, okay, who cares about these terrorists? I won't be involved. I won't be touched by these laws or these extraordinary majors like indefinite detention. But once they are able to have these laws approved, these laws will impact on you, will impact on every journalist. So if Julian Assarch gets extradited, ordinary mainstream journalists will be the next. So the fact that they don't keep picking out, they don't condemn loudly this extradition. Well, it would be something really problematic. They will be the next. We will be the next. They will start with Julian Assarch. They will start with someone who is not establishment, is not media establishment. They go after a small media organization after 10 years of smearing campaign and they hope to be able to extradite him and to put him in prison, so they set the precedent and then we will be the next. Yeah, and I think that is probably a question a lot of people out there ask themselves too. So the next question for you actually is what can we do? Well, I think we have to speak out. We have to talk with our politicians. We have to talk with our newspapers and TVs and trying to get press coverage and try to get all sorts of people taking to the streets and protest. I think they are concerned about pressure. They look at these kind of pressures by the public. So we should try all we can, I mean. So, right, stand up, be loud, demonstrate any kind of protest is super important, is that what you're saying? Absolutely, and unite because so far it has been all about divide, you know? Yes, I like publications but I don't like Julian Assarch. I don't like this or I don't like that one. And this divide and rule has done a lot of damage. They have extradited him for the 2010 publication, which means the Afghan war logs, Iraq war logs, cables, Guantanamo documents. These are amazing documents about extremely serious war crimes, folding serious war crimes and we cannot allow this. We have to speak up and we have to take to the street and say we want to allow you to extradite a journalist for revealing war crimes and tortures, you know? Yeah, and it feels like maybe the first waves or I can feel the first waves of a resistance here among our audience because the next question is, and that's a really good one, are other people allowed to reach out to the European Court of Human Rights on Julian's behalf? Are our people, sorry, could you say that again? Are other people allowed to reach out to the European Court of Human Rights on Julian's behalf? Well, yes, I think, well, actually, it is quite a formal structure process. He has to appeal, his lawyers have to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights certainly any kind of protest, even emailing the European Court of Human Rights, the European Parliament, which have been quite silent about this case. Every morning they wake up and speak out for Russian dissidents, which I agree. I mean, I absolutely agree. They have to speak out for Chinese, for Russian, for North Korea, for whatever. For all sorts of people under pressure by state authorities, but they are very silent on the Julian Assange case, which is pretty of concern, you know? Do you have any hope? I mean, we all know that on January 4th, there will be a new administration in the US. Do you think that this new administration kind of implies any hope for Julian's case? Well, I hope so. I'm not optimistic because the persecution, I would say not prosecution, the persecution of Julian Assange weekly started during the Obama administration. You know, they could have just closed the grand jury investigation. They kept open for two Obama administration that they never stop this blood investigation. Let me tell you, I never heard of a media organization which has been kept under investigation for a decade. I mean, this is the first time I hear a media organization under continuous investigation for 10 years, which means under investigation for alleged violation of the Expionage Act, means that they can intercept you, they can get secret warrants like in the case of the emails of Sarah Harrison, Joseph Farrell, and Christine Rasmussen, and they can do all sorts of very intrusive and secret investigative steps. They can take all sorts of secret investigative steps because Expionage Act is supposed to be about spies. So it's the first time they use the Expionage Act about the journalists. And this is also another, you know, never before you had a publisher, a journalist ending up in prison for alleged violations of the Expionage Act. It's the first time in US history, the first time US history that the publisher end up in prison for publishing truthful information in the public interest. So this is a wake up call to everyone, don't divide about whether you like, you don't like, whether Julian Assange is perfect or he's not perfect. It's look, look at what's happening, something unprecedented. For the first time US history, a journalist who will end up in prison for publishing truthful information in the public interest. This is something you have to look for. And the next question is maybe even a call to action rather than a traditional question. And that is why not writing down a text to share with people that want to write to the European or whatever court. So I think, or I guess this is kind of the request for a petition type of thing. Yes, I mean petitions certainly is a good idea. The problem is to take the street to be physically so that they can not ignore because petitions can be easily ignored. Whereas if people take the street, if people email newsrooms, if people emails TV and media and editors in chess, because I mean we see how little coverage there is about this case. There is very little coverage. And there is people asking me why so little coverage? You know, I don't know. I mean, I'm doing all I can. And you know, I'm fighting hard doing all I can and other colleagues are doing the same trying to get press coverage on this case. But I think more public pressure is necessary from the public sending emails, contacting the editors, contacting the local politicians and get this case discussed at political and media level. Yeah, indeed. So again, in essence to sum it up, so that was the last question so far. It obviously is again, stand up, do the best you can, unite another important topic you mentioned and yeah, I mean, right to courts, right to press rooms, right to the European Parliament, keep nagging. Just make sure that the silence around the Assange case gets squared away. There are other important topics in this world besides the virus. Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, we cannot look, we cannot afford to lose this case. Seriously, we cannot afford to have them putting in prison a journalist for revealing war crimes and torture. This is what the state, we cannot afford to lose this case. Because if we lose this case, they will go after to everyone. And of course, if we lose this case, it is also about a human being. It's not just about journalism, but also human being. Look at how they have treated them. It's horrific, absolutely horrific. I've been there from the very beginning. It has been painful as a journalist to look at how they have been crashing him for the last decade. Yeah, I think this is really a great, on the other hand, also a sad statement, but I will leave it as is. Oh, hold on. There is one last question for you. Is it known of the US negotiate with the UK regarding the surrender of Julian? Do we know Biden's point on this? We don't know. I mean, we know, as I said, we know that the Obama administration, so the Democrats have been, you know, after Julian Assange, which leaks from the very beginning, and Biden called him a high tech terrorist and things like that. So, you know, I'm not really optimistic, but at the same time, at the same time, we have to hope they will, at the end of the day, they will say, okay, we cannot cross the Rubicon and put in prison a journalist who revealed war crimes, you know, for the first time in our history. So we have to hope for this, and we have to fight for this. I'm telling this as a journalist, you know, I'm not telling this as an activist. I'm telling this as a journalist because I care about freedom of the press because if you cannot reveal war crimes safely in a democracy, I mean, what's the purpose of journalism? You know, if you cannot reveal state criminality as a journalist safely in a democracy, what's the purpose of journalism, revealing minor crimes or minor scandals about politics? No, we are supposed to fight and get the highest level of the power, those level where intelligent services, diplomacy, and the states operate. Yeah, indeed, and also a very important control function. Stefania, unfortunately, the next speakers are already waiting, and we need a couple of minutes to prepare. I can only say thank you very much for being here again, for sharing these great insights. And yeah, I'm pretty sure that... Let me tell you one thing, that this discussion will continue in the whistleblower village in the art C3 world. Exactly, so call to action for everyone who wants to hear more. Go to the whistleblower village in the RC3 world. Stefania will be there and a lot of other experts too. Thank you very much, everyone, for joining us here on the R3S stage. Thank you very much, Stefania, and have a great day. Thank you.