 Good morning, everyone. Welcome to Stanford University and a workshop, first of a series of five workshops on decarbonizing the grid. My name is Charlie Colstead. I'm a professor here at Stanford and co-faculty director of Bits and Watts Initiative. And I'll introduce the others as we go along. We should have a very interesting workshop. This will last two hours and we'll have time for question and answers in the second half of the set of presentations. This is our schedule for the spring series of workshops and then we'll talk about today's workshop. Each of these is two hours. My wife asked me this morning, have we learned anything from a year of zooming? And I think one thing we have is that Zoom fatigue sets in pretty quickly. So these are two hour workshops. We hope to cover a lot of material over the next couple of months. But today we're scoping things, looking at the challenges of decarbonizing the grid. And of course what we mean by decarbonizing the grid is the electric power system, getting the grid to work properly with decarbonization supply and high levels of reliability. On March 3rd, which is two weeks from today, we'll start to drill into some of the issues of doing that. And one of those is the role of a grid interconnection for decarbonization. And then at a date, a couple of weeks, two, three weeks later, we'll talk about public policies to facilitate decarbonization. As we all know, at least those countries that have heavy coal dependence or at least moderate coal dependence, turning off the coal is not quite so easy. And public policies can certainly facilitate that. And then a little bit later, we'll talk about storage, very important part of this. And batteries, of course, but beyond batteries as well. And then we'll also be talking about, in the last of these, talking about coordinating demand side flexibility. Then I don't have it listed, but we'll close out with something like today, the end of April, April 28th, I believe it is, a view of what it takes to bring the decarbonize the grid down to 80% down by 80% by the year 2030, which the Biden administration has announced as a goal. And we know goals are to be broken, but they're also there to provide some push. Other countries have similar goals. Today's workshop, first hour, we're gonna have series of speakers talking about different perspectives in just what the, it's the meaning of grid decarbonization and what are some dimensions of the challenge. And then in the last 45 minutes or so, we'll have a Q and A session. I'll ask them questions to start with and the audience as well. Now, if you have any questions, please direct them to the Q and A button at the bottom of your screen. And we'll get to them. If they're clarifying questions, we'll try to address them during the individual talks, but if they're general questions, we'll hold them for the Q and A. And I should add finally that if you have any problems, Wahila Wilkie, who's one of our gurus in the office, will be able to fix any problem you have and her email is listed. But the first thing is, why is electricity is a target? Now, many of us who work in this sector and know full well why it is, it's where the low hanging fruit is. But it's easy to understand if you look at where the greenhouse gases are coming, this is a global sources of greenhouse gas emissions. Now, electricity is just the intermediate good, so it doesn't show up here, but energy is where three quarters of the greenhouse gas emissions come from. And if you look at the outer ring or the next outer ring, you'll see it's either in buildings in transportation or energy use. And this to me explains why you can summarize most greenhouse gas policies countries have by two steps. One is electrify energy demand, get most of the fossil demand that's in this three quarter red slice of pie, move it into electricity explains why electric vehicles such a push on them. And then once that's been done or simultaneously with that, get the carbon content of electricity down, decarbonize the electricity sector. And as you could see, if you're successful in that you've eliminated a very large percentage of the greenhouse gases globally. So some of my data is gonna be a US focused pardon, pardon me for doing that. It's a little joke about the, why are you looking for your keys and the lamp post? The data is readily available on this. This is a interesting graph that shows time along the bottom. And this shows when all of the currently existing electric generating capacity in the United States was built. So this is the current capacity by vintage. And if you look at the scale, it paints a picture of a coal being the popular source in the sixties, particularly the seventies and the eighties after the OPEC action in 73 raised the price of oil. And it sort of died down to a large extent, the lease, the initial building of coal plants in the early eighties. Natural gas also went through a price crisis in North America anyway, in the concurrently with coal or concurrently with oil. And it wasn't so popular in the seventies, eighties and nineties. But then in the this century, natural gas all of a sudden became everybody's friend. And fracking was largely responsible for that but not entirely. And then as we moved to around 2008 or eight or nine, we saw see renewables really start to kick in and this only goes to 2016. But you see renewables are really taking a big step forward as being the leading new source of electric generation along with gas. This is where the generation fuel of choice up to the present 2020 and then where the U.S. Department of Energy post-Trump, I should say the forecast during the Trump administration are somewhat different. This is the, we came out earlier this month. Renewables are obviously in everyone's eye as picking up a lot of the slag from fossil sources particularly coal. But we know that problems, reliability make that not so easy. So let me talk about just a couple of the problems associated with the decarbonizing the grid and mostly it's reliability. I mean, with energy electricity is kilowatt hours plus reliability, two things together. And the renewables provide the energy but the reliability is sometimes sacrificed. There's a lot of, as we move forward, a lot of massive unpredictable fluctuations in renewable supply over a day obviously in the solar and wind and over seasons. Solar on my house and I've noticed the generation dropped to nearly zero in January to because of the angle of the sun and the length of the day. This is particularly problematic if you have a high penetration of solar wind and EVs. This curve which most of the audience I'm sure is familiar with is the famous duck curve. It does look like a duck. And what you see, this is a mixture of actual and forecast is you see that during the daytime hours, particularly in the afternoon, solar and wind are really reducing the net demand. It's a typical spring day and this is for California. Reducing the net demand. And as you see as that duck's belly starts to drag on the ground, curtailments are obviously needed. And in fact, unique curtailment is far before that to preserve reliability. And then when the sun starts to set, you need a dramatic ramp needed to satisfy demand. That's the late afternoon, early evening ramp. And as it also says, this is not purely hypothetical, the actual ramps are California and bottom of the load, net load are actual numbers from the year in question. And then to top this off, we have electric vehicles which I'll talk about next, which create a lot of randomness and stochasticity and demand. So here we have a simulation from one of our faculty around Rajagopal of what happens with 50% electric vehicle penetration in California in the Bay Area. And what we have here is graphs of, I'll look at a series of these with home charging taking 80% of the charging, office 20% and stationary stations, distributed stations, nothing. And you see, of course, there are a lot of assumptions here. We have incentives could be provided to move demand around. This is making a lot of assumptions of that sort. And as we go along by tweaking the fraction in the office and the fraction at home, we get changes in the demand from electric vehicles and we have the grid peak power increasing between 22, 27% in this simulation. And these results result in significant transformer overloading, local transformer overloading. Just think about your block where you may live if you live in city or suburbia with everybody plugging their electric vehicles and level two or level three electric vehicles when they get home. So that's beyond grid stability that's talking about distribution of stability. Okay, so there's solutions, at least as we've conceptualized it here. A big problem is the randomness, the stochasticity of both supply and demand. And this could be usually often as daily stochasticity, not knowing if the cloud cover actually will be, but it could also be seasonal as we've seen during the storm in parts of the United States that have surprised in quotes the grid and caused a real problem with reliability. But so one way of dealing with stochasticity it's basically what insurance markets do is expand the interconnection between regions in order to buffer or uncorrelated shocks, long distance transmission, a lot further than we have now. Somewhat something like China's building in Mongolia and Beijing. But transmission lines in Europe and North America are notoriously difficult to permit and construct. So everything here has a rosy side and not so rosy side. Enhancing storage, batteries. Batteries are everybody's hope for savior in this reliability issue, but costs are high and the interface with generation may be difficult. But better coordinating demand side flexibility. Now I'm an economist, so I think all problems have price solutions, but prices may not be a perfect way of shifting demand quickly within a day. Maybe other mechanisms may be needed. And then finally, policies to facilitate decarbonization of supplies, which I've talked about. Politics can make logical steps difficult to undertake. I hate to say that, but it's true. So with that introduction, let me introduce our guest speakers today and we'll take them in this order. Larry Beckendahl will speak first. Larry is the vice president of grid and architecture and systems operation at Portland General Electric in Portland, Oregon. And we're really pleased to have him and all the others here with us today. Heidi Westlake, who gets a blue ribbon for getting up the earliest of anywhere. She's calling from Melbourne, Australia. She's with Origin Energy as the group manager for sustainability strategy. Thank you very much for being with us. Everybody, but particularly Heidi. And then finally, Patrick Pansy has teaching. Sorry, Patrick, for not getting all the syllables there, but he's from RTE in France, grid operator in France, a senior scientific advisor and we're really pleased to have him with us. He's sacrificing his dinner hour for us. Great, and good morning. Thank you, Dr. Colstead. Appreciate the introduction, appreciate being here. And for your thoughts as you bring us together and thinking about this clean energy future, which presenting challenges. So Larry Beckadal, Vice President of Grid, Architecture, Integration and System Operations here at Portland General Electric. And along with being here, I'll just mention that we're right in the middle and trying to work our way through an ice storm that started this weekend and has been a real challenge to putting ice on wires and adding a little wind is by far the worst thing you can do to an electric grid. And so we've had our challenges with over an inch of radial ice on our wires and putting all the pieces together. So this is a one in 40, almost 50 year. I think they go back to 1962 being a comparison with the Columbus day storm here in the Portland area. We haven't seen anything quite like it since then. So I guess my apologies if I am maybe not quite as sharp. There's been a lot of long nights here. We'll just say as we walk through. But thanks and appreciate being here. And we'll just say mother nature is changing. And as we think about a clean energy future and what the impacts are, whether it's wildfires or it's extreme weather conditions like ice storms, these are things that we all need to be considering when we think about resiliency and a system of the future. Portland General Electric, who are we? We were established here in 1889 in Portland, Oregon. We serve roughly 75% of the commercial industrial and about 50% of the population here in the greater Portland area and a little bit of information about us. I like to always remind that the first high voltage AC transmission line was built from Atlantic Falls to Portland, Oregon downtown. And it was built here right after the Chicago's World Fair in which there was the battle over AC versus DC. And the AC won out at the Chicago World Fair and then they built the line over here. And I debate that sometimes whether we were pioneers and innovators or they just wanted to build it somewhere remote in case it didn't work, they could bury it. So either way, we think of ourselves as being innovative in the start of our industry. I do like quotes. This is one that I really appreciate thinking about where are we going in that future? And we've got to get ahead of it here. So let's meet the future together and what does that really look like? And as we think about the power supply, I think Dr. Cole said give us that sense of what our power supply might look like. The vehicles we might drive, the materials we purchase and the buildings we operate and work in all plays into this future that we think about. For Portland General Electric, we've put a goal out there that we will be net zero on greenhouse gas emissions by 2040. And we will reach an 80% by 2030. So we have coal plants, we just shut down the Boardman plant here in October. And in the future, we have a coal strip plant ownership that we see as well. But those are large plants being taken out of the system. And as we're adding renewables, how is that impacting us across the region? So I see a future that is much like we're building a wheat ridge facility right now. The wind turbines are up. We're now adding battery storage and we're adding solar as well. And so we want to see the combination of them working together. And hopefully gaining additional capacity and resiliency out of a system that works there together in that way. I also see a future of electric vehicles. And not that this particular brand, but the number of electric vehicles and where they're going to be stationed. And I would say that fleet service is going to be coming faster than even the, I'll say the individual consumers vehicles. Very, very popular right now and very cost effective for fleets, such as an Amazon or a Federal Express or even you heard President Biden referring to the US Postal Service and changing its whole fleet over into electric. So we're going to see a huge impact due to electric vehicles and this whole transformation of transportation. Also the future, we talk about batteries. And so as Dr. Colsted brought up that issue, it's going to be in substations, it's going to be a generating sites, it's going to be in neighborhoods, it's going to be in homes. And we will think and act and look to how do we operate those batteries across our grid. And here's just a quick example. We started a pilot project here. We have what we call the smart grid test beds. We have three different communities that our customers are involved with us and developing what we think is the energy supply of the future. And in part of that, we have residential customers that now we're selling and working with installing residential batteries in their homes. And with that in mind, we can actually control those batteries. So we can influence when they charge and or de-charge if you will and feedback to the grid. And so we've been doing that as a demand response type program. And this is just a quick chart to show you the testing of some of that. And so we see a future with a lot of homes that have flexible load as well as storage and as well as influencing of charging times as well as affordable takes on the rooftop. So all of those critical elements will make a real difference. Here's another chart. This is our system. This particular day peak out at just under 3,300 megawatts across Portland. And what you're seeing in the blue line is that we triggered right around 7 p.m. to call for demand response. And so it's only 50 megawatts or actually it was about 70 megawatts or 55 megawatts on that particular day. And this is in the wintertime peak. Summertime right now a program we have about 80 megawatts but to be able to show how demand response can really start to make a difference on our systems and that we all need to be making that visible in our systems and how we operate to try to optimize when we have that flexible load to help us balance with the renewables that are being placed on the generation side. So here's what that future looks like. And if you have that demand response and whether it's batteries and homes or the vehicles, et cetera, we would like to call it the virtual power plant. And so you can see here a future with wind, solar, hydro in the West and the Northwest we have about 50% of the capacity is provided by hydro. But as we remove the carbon emitting generation out what are we injecting? And one of the critical elements is going to have to be that virtual power plant and in order to maintain reliability, to maintain the system when the wind's not blowing or the sun's not shining. And so all of these elements come into play. Now, something that I didn't show on here and I think there's a real conversation right now and Dr. Colston didn't have it in his slides either is hydrogen. How does hydrogen play into this? Again, as another resource that when we have excess wind or solar or hydro that we could actually generate hydrogen and store it and then use it as a generating source as we go into the future. So in the Northwest, this is kind of a quick snapshot of what our typical generation looks like. And you can see where I mentioned the hydro is about 54%. You see the coal, you see the natural gas you see the other wind, small nuclear and biomass, but to take 22% for us of coal and or natural gas out of the system to decarbonize is a huge impact in terms of reliability and how we operate the system when it's not when wind's not blowing or the sun's not shining. And so that's the challenge before us. And again, here's another view as we think about the this is an actual look for us here in Oregon and the transformation and what it's going to take to inject other types of generation into the system by 2050. So one of the things that we really do as we mentioned we talk about what is the reliability and also from a adequacy perspective what do we have coming and what do we have for reserves? And so this is a snapshot from the Northwest Power Pool. You can see kind of what the Northwest is there. 73,000 megawatts shown that particular day. This was a couple of weeks ago that pie chart represents the amount of load compared to a forecast. And so here in the wintertime you're about 95% shown in this pie chart. But on the right hand side is a little those two little bars and the purple represents we require 3% of our load at all times for spinning reserves and 3% for contingency reserves. So we have to have a margin of 6% available at all times. And then the green bar next to it is a forecast of what reserves might be out there. And so to represent to say, you really have the adequate reserves to standing by. And so when it gets really tricky as we all think about it is you're getting close to a peak load like 95% but if you didn't have reserves, what would you do? And so we think about that and you can see how California stands this particular day. You can see how the desert Southwest looks this particular day. But we impacted each other across the West when an outage takes place in California. We have both the California, Oregon intertie. We also have the DC intertie that is between the Northwest and California. Huge impacts and flows. And so as Dr. Colsted showed that duck curve and what happens during the day is there is excess generation and it's coming our way to the North and we appreciate it because we have low cost energy coming our way. But then in the evening time when that duck curve takes place and the solar in California goes away, there's this huge sucking sound that you can hear coming from the Northwest feeding back into California to make up that difference. So we do interact very closely across these regions and we all influence each other. And so we've got to think about the impacts across because the electrons traveling at the speed of light really don't pay attention to the state borders. So with that and thinking about this grid of the future I might entice you to take a look if you were to go onto YouTube and look back at President John F. Kennedy's speech at Rice University where he talks about going to the moon and he talks about building this spaceship that's over 300 feet long and it's made out of metal alloys that haven't even been discovered yet. It's got control systems that haven't even been designed yet and we're gonna take this ship or we're gonna put people in it and we're gonna go up to the moon. Took us 10 years to do that but I think about our grid in a similar way. We have a challenge in front of us. We don't have the answers on how we're going to do reliability but we have some fundamentals. We have some thoughts and we're going to continue to develop and this is our chance and our time to really make the difference. And if we're going to achieve the greenhouse gas goals and creating an environment that's better then we need to be thinking about this aspirationally. We need to be thinking about how we're going to make the difference here. And so it's a challenge. I would say for the Northwest right now we're probably more concerned between now and 2030 as we transition than as the new technologies come about and 2030 and beyond. But this is a real challenge for us all as we think about going into the future. So I leave you with just a couple of thoughts. I call it words from Burt because Burt was a Uber driver that I had and when I jumped into his car he began to talk and I told him I was involved in this grid architecture and what's happening with the electric utilities. And he said, well there's just a couple of things in advice. He said one, creativity takes focus time. So are you spending focus time to do this? He also said if you can see it, it'll happen. And then his last word of advice was if you're excited about it it'll even happen sooner. And so I leave you with those words of wisdom from Burt, my Uber driver that really this is all a great challenge to us. And I really look forward to being a part of this for our industry. So thank you. Larry, thank you very much. And thanks to Burt too. He's probably president of Uber by now. We do have one question which actually we have several questions but one clarifying questions. You talked about demand response and this is from Enric Menka. Is there an incentive for customers to participate in the demand response program? Obviously there is but maybe just briefly describe that. Yeah, there's two things. One, all of our customers it's available for and there is an incentive program for them to participate. But if you're in the smart grid test beds it's an opt out feature. So everybody's included but you can opt out. It started out as I'll say the non-firm meaning that text messages or email notes came and if you performed and changed then you got the credits. And now it's become a control of your thermostat a control of your hot water tank that you can participate in and that's really making a big difference. So yes, it is an incentive. It should be shared. It should be a win-win for both utility and for the customer. Thank you very much. So we better move along and turn to Heidi Westlake from Origin. I already introduced Heidi but I'll turn over the controls to her now and thank you again Heidi for joining us from down on there. So yeah, it's really great to be here. Appreciate you having me from Australia. And today I was just gonna talk to you a little bit about how we are approaching our decarbonisation journey here at Origin Energy. So a little bit about Origin for those of you who probably are not familiar with us where one of Australia's leading integrated energy companies we provide a diverse range of products and service offerings and that includes electricity, natural gas, LPG, liquefied petroleum, grass, LPG, rural band and that's to over form in customer base. We own, operate and contract electricity generation portfolio of over 7000 megawatts and that's from a range of energy sources from traditional fuels like coal and our only coal-fired power station, Araring, is Australia's largest coal-fired power station, natural gas and renewables and storage. We're also one of Australia's largest installers of solar panels and we've helped around 80,000 homes use solar energy and we're Australia's largest buyer of utility-scale solar. We also have an integrated gas business and we are the upstream operator of and have 37.5 shareholder in Australia Pacific LNG and they supply natural gas to domestic markets and export liquefied natural gas under long-term contracts internationally. So at Origin our purpose of getting energy right for our customers, our communities and our planet really does underpin everything we do. Decapitisation and action on climate change is really central to our purpose. As a large energy company, we play a critical role in a lower emissions future and for us that lower emissions future is really critical but we also have to ensure that customers have reliability which we've addressed in a couple of other slides but also affordability which has been a challenge here in Australia today being able to hit what we call the trilemma. So emissions reduction, reliability and affordability and so we've been taking action on climate change for some time. So our position on, we frame the way we think about climate change by four real, four commitments. We unequivocally support Paris Agreement and measures to progressively reduce global emissions. We believe our sector and our company should be at the forefront of reducing emissions and we are committed to lead the effort to decarbonise the Australian economy. We believe the electricity sector needs to deliver more than its proportional share to enable the economy to addition to a low carbon future. And a lot of that is around the role that electricity can play in decarbonising not just our portfolios but our customers as well. And we've long advocated for clear government policies to achieve Australia's 2030 emission reduction targets and a goal of net zero emissions for the electricity sector by 2050. And we also have an aim to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. For those of you who aren't familiar with the politics of climate change in Australia, it's quite fraught. We've lost a number of prime ministers who've tried to take action on climate change. We used to have a carbon price and that has been removed. So it's been and coal is a very big part of our national electricity market here makes up about 75%. So it's been an area that's been quite fraught from a political sense and as a result of that the policy environment ability to have a national approach to addressing this has been quite challenging. We have however recently had our prime minister seem like he's trying to move his messaging towards trying to agree to net zero 2050 target for Australia. But we'll see how that goes in the party room. We also have validated and approved science based emissions reduction targets and that's to reduce our scope one, scope two and scope three emissions. And we plant update those for a 1.5 degree pathway. I'm sure you would have seen in the press and elsewhere that climate change is receiving increased focus. And this includes from investors and analysts. There is also increased consumer and community awareness around environmental considerations. And we are seeing an increasing number of shareholder resolutions focused on climate change. I guess we had thought that with COVID that the rate of the transition and expectations in regards to this might fall off a bit. But what we've seen is actually opposite that it seems to be accelerating. By way of example, there is a shareholder group Climate Action 100, which maybe other members of the panel are familiar with as well. They're an investor coalition of over 500 investors, 52 trillion of assets under management. And their main goal is to ensure the words largest corporate greenhouse gas emitters take necessary action on climate change. For us, Climate Action 100 represents about 20% of our shareholder registry. So in other words, 20% of the company. And we engage directly with this group and other stakeholders to ensure that they understand how we're thinking about and approaching climate change and decarbonisation. So in order to support our decarbonisation journey, we have a decarbonisation strategy that's summed up by what we call our five pillars of decarbonisation. So part of that previously mentioned, we have a coal-fired power station, a Rarring. So we have committed to exiting coal-fired power generation by 2032. Prior to the retirement of our Rarring, it will continue to play a really valuable and quite critical role as one of Australia's most flexible and efficient coal plants. Given its flexibility, it basically has the ability to be able to cycle up and down more efficiently than other plants, which allows us to respond to market conditions and address some of those issues. We've had previous speakers speak about that happen when we have renewables coming into the system. It also allows us to ensure that the reliability of our energy supply to our customers at a lower cost. Our next pillar is around growing renewables in our portfolio. At the moment, we are targeting 25% of our owned and contracted generation capacity to be made up of renewables and storage. We currently have a 530 megawatt wind generation project called Stockard Hill, which is under construction and that is expected to be finalised this calendar year. The third pillar is around utilising our strong gas position as a lower emission fuel. As we've highlighted before, potentially gas-fired generation is really a perfect partner for the increase in the intermittency associated with renewable generation in the national electricity market and given its ability to be quickly switched on to meet demand and even out the supply of energy when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't blowing. It's quite critical to the transition, particularly here in Australia, where we have such a large capacity of coal to replace. Third one is around our customers. So not only are we trying to decarbonise our business, but we're also working with our customers to how we can help them decarbonise as well. So we can continue to support our customers with solar products. We have an ongoing programme of assessing and trialling a number of new technologies and business models. We have a future energy arm as part of the business that will give customers more control over their energy usage. So some of those things are things like a petrol power plant. So that allows us to orchestrate a range of distributed assets, a behavioural demand response product, Spike, and so quite similar to some of the things that Larry has already mentioned. We're also running a smart EV charging trial and transitioning our fleet up to EVs where possible. In integrated gas, integrated gas business, we're exploring the development of zero and low carbon fuels, including green hydrogen and green ammonia. Probably the other key pillar, which is really important to us here in Australia, is also the demonstrating leadership and climate change advocacy. So we have for a long time been advocating for climate change action, including the progressive decarbonisation of our energy sector and ensuring that the policy settings enable this to happen in an orderly manager manner. So we have our strategy and then we have some targets which support how we progress towards our strategy. As a leading energy company, we've long recognised we have responsibility to address climate change and we have taken some quite ambitious steps that very few in our sector of Australia have taken. In 2015, we were the first energy company in the world to sign up to the first seven women business commitments to accelerate action on climate change. And in 2017, we were the first Australian company to have emissions reduction targets independently validated and approved by the science-based targets initiative. So those targets commit us to reducing a scope one and two greenhouse gas emissions by 50% by 2032. A large portion of that will be achieved by the retirement of our RRing. And we also have a scope three target to reduce emissions across our value chain by 25% by 2032. Last year, we also put in place a new short-term target to reduce scope one emissions by 10%. And that's over a three-year period and is linked to executive remuneration as well. And as mentioned previously to support our and significantly growing renewables in our portfolio decarbonisation pillar, we're targeting for renewables and storage to make up more than 25% of our generation mix. So while it's important to make these commitments and have targets and strategies, it's equally important to be able to progress actions that support those targets. And this is just a snapshot of some of the actions that we're taking. Our solar business continues to grow. It was up 22% and FYI 20. We're working to decarbonise our existing business and scope one and two emissions were down by 9% last financial year. We have over 1200 megawatts of renewable PPAs in place and that will continue to grow. We're using artificial intelligence to run our assets including a RRing power station and our production wells that are APLNG facilities more efficiently. Our virtual power plant now has more than 85 megawatts from over 11,000 customers and Spike, our demand response trial is continuing to grow with now more than 25,000 customers signed up. We're also undertaking electric vehicle smart charging trial with the Australian Renewable Energy Agency. And the purpose of that is to manage and reduce the cost of EV charging which will create value for EV drivers as well as the energy markets. And for our RRing power station we've recently announced an expression of interest for a 700 megawatt battery storage project for them. So that is also kicking off. We're investing in opportunities to run more of our assets on renewable energy. Our LPG business has been installing solar panels on terminals where possible and we're also pursuing opportunities in green hydrogen and ammonia and carbon capture storage opportunities. So that's my brief overview of our approach to decarbonisation. Well, Heidi, thank you very much. We do have two brief questions if you could address the one from Aaron Craig asking why the coal plant isn't coming down for another decade and the second question is whether you are origin is tying decarbonisation, sorry, are you pursuing linked customer solar and customer electrification requiring, for instance, EV charger or electric heat pump in order to qualify for rooftop solar? So if you just briefly answer those two that'd be great. Sure, so let me just see if I can find the coal question. So the reason origin isn't coming down for 2032 is because it's quite critical to the grid over here. We have a number of, as I mentioned before, our national electricity market is about 75% coal and we have a number of assets, coal fire power stations that are coming out over the next decade. So maintaining capacity in the grid will be, or how we replace that capacity in the grid will be quite challenging and ariring will be critical to ensuring that we maintain that stability through that process. So yeah, we're constantly evaluating, things are changing rapidly, but yeah, so ariring is pretty critical to ensuring that we maintain the reliability and stability in the grid as we go forward. Yep, so does our agency link to customer solar and customer electrification? We have, so if I understand the question correctly, we have like a solar battery program you can sign up to. There's also the virtual power plant. I think the question is, you force them to electrify their demand at the same time they're getting the benefits of the solar that a lot of questions here, but I think that addresses what we have. So thank you very much. We'll come back to things in the group Q&A session. Thank you very much, Heidi. I'm much appreciated. Next speaker is Patrick Pansy Adici and he is from RTE, France. Hi everyone. Yes, I am from France and I am from RTE, so it's a French TES. So perhaps my title or my presentation is Evolution or perhaps Revolution of Power System. I believe that we are living a very big transformation of power system and decarbonisation in one of the target, but perhaps not the only one. So I am from R&B and I am French. So perhaps I will give something a bit more conceptual. I don't know. I choose to be a bit more high level concept rather than to dig in some detail, but let's see if it's interesting for you with my pleasure to share that. So this is a map of Europe and we know that this launch power system is the most complex machine ever built by humankind and this system are becoming more and more complex and we are part of this big interconnection. So it's a very much great in the middle and there is some connection through DC for UK or for the Nordic country, for example, and no connection with Russia, but some small connection with North Africa and Turkey. And RTE is managing the French network. So it's managing the transmission system operator. So we own, we develop, we maintain and we operate just great. We don't have any generation asset. We just transmit power and we operate in the very big market. It's more in European market than the French market and then we have a lot of coordination of the TSI in Europe to deal with. So the question of climate change, of course, is a big question and it's a part of R&B's vision to try to be part of that and of course we are very aggressive target in Europe and France about that. And in France, the problem is not so much to decarbonize electricity thanks to nuclear power plants that we have now. So it's not a big problem for now, but we need to understand what will happen in the future and if we have more, we have a switch from fossil fuel to electricity in some applications and plus we need more electricity and of course nuclear power plant is also a question mark but we are very advanced flexible nuclear power plant that are able to follow the load. It's very, very unique and our predecessor in the business did that. It's very impressive. So the question of climate change is also a global question for sure and it's quite easy to push the problem in other country or in the manufacturing process. So the problem is huge and here I put some numbers about what the problem we have that we don't have to use existing carbon reserve and it could be very difficult for us to resist because if we burn all the known reserve of coal oil and natural gas that we need to handle around 3,000 billion tons of CO2 and we know that to keep the global warming below two degrees C we must burn only around 600 billion tons of CO2. Until 2050. So we need to fight against this temptation to burn this coal oil and natural gas and nowhere in the planet. And it's very easy to buy PV panels in France and then to forget how the manufacturing process was done in China. So we must be aware of that. But climate change is just a part of the problem or just a piece of the problem. We believe that we have other problems that could be very challenging or so. And one could be the accelerating of the resource extraction and it could be the case for example for sand and even if we think that we have a lot of sand it could be very critical in some country to have access to that. And if we don't pay attention we can have some problem about that. And of course all the raw material and all the rough for example we need to pay attention to this extraction process. So we have something also about equity and yes this idea of that for sure it could be possible to do something but we need to keep the society quite possible to live in and it process not a good idea to increase inequality in society and of course we have this problem in transformation. So the government put a carbon tax and it was perhaps a good idea to reduce the carbon emission but then the people that are living in the countryside with no public transportation nothing was trapped with this carbon tax and they were very against and we have some problem and disorder to deal with that and then the government stopped this idea of taxing carbon for all the people. So we need to pay attention to that and also we have an impact on the biodiversity with all the industrial processes and we must pay attention to that if we, it's not a good idea if we decarbonize if we increase the collapse of biodiversity it's not a good idea perhaps we must pay attention to that and then also we can have very some kind of effect of global warming but perhaps something else we can have this migration that could be also a kind of problem for our society so we need to understand how to do that and also to help all the country and not to be selfish and to have a very advanced society and then to forget about people that will be very impact by the climate change and then will be a problem even for us so and all these are very well documented very different reports from every one association so it's not, so it's a very big problem with these interdependent trends that must be taken into account together of course we can have many ideas about science and technology and collaborative opportunity to try to find some solution and of course digitalization is something that could help and for example the cyber physical system as a concept to put more and more digital solution in the system to address the complexity is certainly a good thing and we need to understand how to do that we have of course this digital twin also that is very it's a bit of a buzz word but anyways we can do a lot of yes, high performance computing using high performance computing you can do very advanced simulation of objects before the design and in silico before doing something for real and to put them in the field so we can optimize yes, the operation of system or even the maintenance of system using digital twins and for sure we need to develop more of that for industrial system and we can have a source of inspiration but it was a natural so there is a lot of biomemitism that could help and we are looking at some solution to try to mimic some some natural process even for the assignment of the foundation of the tower for example we can find some example yes, you see for example what to do with this foundation is it possible to use something that is unconcrete to do that robotics is also a big thing that could help to monitor everything or to have access to very insecure environment and to be able to have a better assessment of the infrastructure and to be able to do a better maintenance and to be more efficient of course we have this artificial intelligence that is a big big thing and we believe that that could help for sure to tackle the complexity but for critical infrastructure and for critical mission we still have some challenge to face and explainability and interaction with human that leads to the neuroscience thing that what is the human in the loop and how the human understand things and how they interact with very complex algorithm or decision making process is also a question mark and the interaction between complex algorithm and human in the decision making process is for sure a big challenge for us and then we have the connectivity and sociology for of course this social network that are very important now for information and for sharing information for transparency and so it's very important to understand how to use that to promote yes a good solution and not fake news so it's a very difficult problem and to explain very complex thing to a general public and then we have the sociology and of course we must be aware of the need of society and if the people want to have local solution perhaps it's not a good idea but if they really want to have that rather than to have this large interconnection and to be a kind of to have this to be more or less a bit autistic and to be able to do everything locally we need to understand that and to explain that perhaps it's not a good idea or perhaps we can do a part of that but not everything locally so yes we must understand that what we are doing since the very beginning of power system to try to have this technical, economical performances of course we must continue to do that to optimize the security of surprise the quality of surprise of course for the community for the consumer and of course also to ensure the safety around the equipment and everything so this is what we are doing since the very beginning of power system we need to continue that but perhaps it's not enough and of course this would change because we can have some incentive but we believe that we must anticipate and to be proactive to integrate more dimension in this problem so we believe that we on top of this classical dimension we need to add four other ones something on solidarity about yes equity and promotion of social inclusion health and well-being we must be aware of that and to be for example if people are afraid of electromagnetic field we must understand that and we must try to assess if there is impact or not we believe not but anyways the process is not enough to believe we need to demonstrate and also to mitigate perhaps these kind of things of course we have the ecologies the climate change is one part of that but also to protect, regenerate the biodiversity around asset and of course we have to prevent the pollution and destruction of the habitat of the animals of vegetation and everything so we need to understand that and we have something that is very European perhaps and not very clear for in US we have this idea of frugality that was okay perhaps it's a good idea to try to minimize the things that we need so perhaps some people are maybe a stream but anyway perhaps it's not a bad idea to have a look and to try to chase a waste to chase a waste and to question the necessity and the level of of services we need for example we must understand that we must design the building to be more efficient in cooling and heating and to put more thermal insulation rather than to a very poorly designed building and then to try to optimize how to provide energy to perform this cooling and heating in buildings that are not very well insulated so we need to think about that and of course it's not easy because our business is to transmit electricity so perhaps and then we need to understand the use of electricity and perhaps to reduce the use of energy when it's possible and then of course we have to take into account the resilience of the system and of course it's impossible to avoid the impact but we need to can mitigate the impact we can limit the impact and we are afraid to have more and more extreme disturbances and the climate change could also lead to this variability of weather not only a global warming but also locally some very strange weather that the things that you have in Texas for example this very strange yes cold weather in Texas and it will be very difficult to do something that avoid that but at least to mitigate the impact could be a good yes a good fit and of course it's a very complex system to do yeah so okay so of course and for me one conceptual question is to find the right balance between local and global solutions of course we need to take advantage of distributed energy ESP panel on the rooftop the endometer battery, flexible demand but some people think that it could be perhaps a good idea to go to something that is more or less a night and night microgrid perhaps it's not impossible but perhaps it's more for rich people in a rich country or for not so rich country for low energy usage just from lighting we played a show on the reading, the coding and the cooking and to make a joke I say okay of course it's possible and we have this international space station that is absolutely a night in microgrid and of course it's possible but perhaps it's not a good idea on Earth but that space is of course mandatory and then on the contrary we can have this global this global connection yes and of course we know that this global interconnection could take advantage of diversity of behavior and this kind of smoothing of stochasticity and of course we can have economy of scale if we have some large wind farm we can reduce this large windmill we can of course reduce the cost and we have to think that we still have to deliver electricity to large industrial cost and to the consumer and data center for example and of course the best spot to take energy hydrogeothermal or forshore are sometimes far away from the lot center so we need some great in between and I took this example very interesting that this project in Australia that they plan to I don't know if it's fully serious but I think it's a serious source that they want to be a very big solar plan with some battery to send energy to Singapore so it's you know with a 3000 km of submarine cable so it's just impressive but some people are thinking of global grid to interconnect the planet and there is a working group in Cigarette that is working or studies this possibility to understand if it's possible or not so the question to find the right balance between local and global to perhaps to find the glue between yes local and global and I believe that digitalization is the glue to do that and then we are moving to a more cyber physical system so the keyword decentralization, aggregation, decentralized solution, edge computing and for me it's an efficient way perhaps to integrate local solution in large energy market we have this blockchain that all the people are speaking way but it could be an interesting asset for this peer-to-peer connection but also we can think once again of all these cybernetics that we can put local feedback local control, that idea complexity and literal physics so it's also a part of the solution so I can go very quickly on the more classical challenges of forced electron mobility but all the people think about that but I want to say that of course location matters and of course we need to upgrade the grid and also fast dynamics matters so it's not only something that is less than 10 seconds could have an impact on the stability of the system so we need to think about that it's not only about balancing and market design it's also about grid and fast dynamics yes hydrogen is also a big question mark in Europe and then also the competition between perhaps hydrogen and electricity as energy storage or carriers so of course we can think of synthetic gas or hydrogen or ammonia to transport or transmit and of course for us the big question mark is the location of the electronics or do we have to put the electricity near the generation of hydrogen or near the consumption of hydrogen and to find a good integration between electricity and hydrogen is a big question and in France yes of course we have a lot of nuclear power plan and for us the big question mark is about this nuclear energy so we plan to have a slow shutdown of this nuclear power plan but to be a big question for the carbon because now we are the electricity is not out of carbon in it because we are out of nuclear power plan so if we stop them then what we can do so it's a big question mark for us so we try to have a new version of this nuclear power plan it's called EPR and 1.6 GW but it's very expensive now of course of this first one we observe it's also going to be less expensive but this one is 19 billion euro and it's delayed now for around 10 years or so but I think that perhaps some other nuclear technology could emerge and there is a lot of project about this more modular reactors and there is a report from the International Agency of Energy that give a full report on that and of course sometimes they are not so small and for example I took an example of this very disruptive solution that is a very small one and they think that they will have a prototype in 2026 and then perhaps if this solution emerge then the landscape could change a lot so this is what I have so thank you for your attention so I think for me the big question is balance between local and global solution and digitization could be a way to glue both local and global solution thank you very much Patrick we do have one question which for you which I wonder if you could expand briefly on and that's the issue of inequality and the question is this is from Robert Rowe paraphrased here should wealthy customers for example pay more of the cost for developing installing renewable equipment or how do you how is pricing of your products can be useful to address this yes so it's a big question and at the end very political so it's very depending on what the society want and of course in Europe and France the people are not against for sharing the cost and to have a socialization of the cost so I'm not fully against that so so we believe that that of course now there is a lot of public money involved in all this wind and solar things and now there is a tax that is by all the people yes to support this green energy but perhaps it's not very fair and and we need to think about that because sometimes you know they are not you know they are not using that for themselves or I don't know how to say that but of course now we have some incentive to put PV panel for everyone but once again we need to make the investment and perhaps only the rich people can do that so you have some public money but that go to the people that are able to buy some PV panel and then they are really worse but you need to have the money to buy the PV panel so we need to understand that because at the end the people will be very against that they have to pay taxes just to give money to the rich people that are building PV panel on the rooftop so I don't know the difficult question although it's also the economic question and you have a lot of fixed costs and whether you should convert those fixed costs into a variable price is not always clear what the best way is to recover those fixed costs but anyway that is a debate that will continue for a long time I think let's turn now to the group question and answer also continue you can continue to pose I'm talking to the audience now you can continue to pose question to any of the panelists as we move to this session and I'd like to start this off by introducing Leon Min who has spent quite a bit of time in Texas and has a question about reliability in Texas at the moment Leon are you prepared to chime in with the question yes thank you Charlie I think this is also we received couple questions from the audience as well regarding what are your thoughts on the current situation in Texas where is a lot of generation lost because of the natural gas supply issues or also because of the wind and the icing issue on the wind turbine or because of the transmission icing issues as Larry described so what's the perspective of the current situation in Texas and what are the challenges do you think that Texas is facing for instance they don't have enough connection even they have connection but they don't import or export electricity from Mexico in the state so what's the perspective on that not everybody has to answer this but if anybody would like to tackle this question among the four panelists I can say something very quickly so I think the question is more what is the reliability level we want so depending on the reliability level we want we have to pay for that so if the people never want to have any blackouts of course we can be the citizen for that but it would be very costly so at the end we need to address that and of course it's a probability of extreme events increase perhaps we need to change something but then it's how to assess that but if this event happens only once each I don't know 100 years so nobody cares so I don't know so this is a reliability level that we want and we have to pay for I would point out that if your loss of low probability is one in 10,000 then every 100 years you can expect to lose a day or two anybody else have any additions on this yeah this is Larry and I that's a big question is it one in every 100 years is it now one in every 50 is it now one in every 10 or is it every year just think about the migration of California wildfires and how that changed over the last decade from what seemed to be seasonal to what was and those seasons and then all of a sudden it was every summer and now this last year it was every month of the year so you have to ask is it different and talking with the counterpart from Auburn grid with wind generators that are in Texas they're not designed for that thermal characteristics that you would put something in Minnesota or Wisconsin are you going to put the added cost into that for that three days or this type of event same with their generation plants that their natural gas plants are not designed for cool seasons as well so to get back to Patrick's comment is it worth spending the funds for that and from a regional adequacy perspective how are you planning for that how are you designing for that so I think it is a big question and starting with is this should they be planning for an annual event the last comment I would make is that ERCOT being separated the WEC region being separated you know at what point do we start to consider some sort of planning that might put DC intertized in between of some of these regions to be able to take advantage of some of the renewables that might be in Central US or Texas the same way so is the DC intertized in the northern plains is that at capacity for the most part yeah and that's just thinking about how we plan we keep to our own regions we don't think about crossing over and should we should that be a consideration going into the future that will be the subject of the March 3rd session on expanding introducing more long distance transmission so obviously it's an important question let me let me ask another actually does anyone else have anything to add to that before we move on to another question we have about 20 minutes left no okay that's fine so this is a different kind of question I have to let me ask this the easy one first this is for Elizabeth and some some people it's not coming from me but some of the participants have said that there's an elephant in the room of associated with shell decarbonizing and that's of course the main product it sells how do you handle that question in terms of talking about decarbonizing shell while specializing in the sale of liquid carbon thank you no appreciate the question the short answer is that we address the emissions from all the energy that we sell so we look at scope one and two for our own operational emissions we look at scope three of emissions from use of energy sold by shell from our own production and we also look at scope three full life cycle emissions from energy sold by shell that is produced by others also so we have targets not just for our own operations but for all of the energy that we sell and that is part of the net zero ambition that I talked about that's a good answer okay let me turn to another question and this has come up with firms wanting to take the initiative on decarbonizing their electricity consumption and this is primarily for the utilities on the panelists would you be able to market I mean establish a tariff for electricity with a maximum content per kilowatt hour averaged on a daily basis or some other time period I'll be happy to start that and then maybe Heidi wants to jump in as well and I would say right now today 25% of our customers will pay for renewable credits to offset and signals to us that there definitely is a desire by customers to be able to do something of that nature and so as you're describing this percentage or an average on a daily etc we as utilities do need to figure that out we need to be able to publish it they're looking for that information communities themselves are asking for that if they've passed ordinances for instance to be 100% green well how are you providing that information to them to be able to demonstrate that so so that is absolutely an effort that all of us are moving in that direction but is that just reshuffling the generation you know half the people don't care half the people do care no well that's and you're right by buying credits that's what most people would look at it that way and as we move to being able to show what the real is and and again it's thinking about it from a real-time perspective so can I get that information at any time during the day as a customer is a desire that we're hearing and again communities want to see that as well so there is definitely I'll use a number of our industrial customers who actually are paying for and helping us to build renewable facilities so that they have a direct link and again to your point the electrons really won't go to their building necessarily they're going to go into the system so what percentage and how that's shared but to get to a net zero by 2040 we're going to have to solve these issues but we need that reporting to drive I should remind the audience that they should feel free to submit their own questions and we'll provide the answer from Mark perhaps I can add something on that I don't know so just to remind that of course you can control the flow of money and you can pay for green energy but it's not what we are consuming for example if you consume what more I'm sure that the wind and the sun will not change I'm sure that then of course you can pay some green company and the money will flow to this green company but electricity will not come from that so and of course we don't have to mix the flow of money, the flow of electricity and the flow of information and we need to understand that it's not the same and of course we can have some contracts but depending on the time scale and you know the economics for example is always a marginal cost and you know it's a very marginal and marginally so people have to understand that it's the flow of money it's not the flow of electricity let me pose a question for Patrick when I was in Norway in the historic period of pre-March pre-March 2020 there was excuse me a lot of debate over whether Norway should be the battery for Europe it has a lot of hydro of course and it's they use it for their own consumption but they were considering basically switching roles and putting in plenty of power lines down to Netherlands and the continent being a battery for Europe and if you look around the globe you have the Pacific Northwest or the Pacific Southwest if you're in Canada who could play a similar role and if you go to the Asia you have the Himalayas the hydro resources is that a viable sort of national or long distance way of decarbonizing or using storage without really inventing anything yes for sure we are pushing a lot of this large interconnection long distance interconnection but then politically there is some issue about that and of course sometimes it will be the people from Norway are using yes as they are selling gas and then they are using green electricity and of course with selling gas they can invest in some green equipment so perhaps it's not bad for the future but we need to be aware that of course they have a lot of money because they have this oil and gas industry that bring a lot of money in their society and then perhaps so we need to be aware of that when they do this kind of big dam and everything they will use perhaps some energy that is not so clean so one question we have that not to move the CO2 on the manufacturing process and we have to pay attention of that because it's so easy to move the CO2 yes more on the manufacturing process rather than the operation and we might find it's a balance between the two but for sure it's a good idea they have a lot of hydro and they are not so far away so they are far away but not so far away and of course politically also it's easier depending on North Africa or that would be easier for us Norway is not too happy about it I don't think some of them anyway or to depend too much on Russia so of course those will be easier for us to depend of Norway but on Russia or North Africa I already think that you are part of the country would favorably on that maybe they already are serving that role in California because they didn't they are already sending a lot of they are filling in the duck hydro of course but they are not very efficient but anyway so you are losing a lot of energy but if you have a lot of energy you don't know what to do with this is a question from Edison Larry what is your what's cutting Edison on this idea of storing storage that is a big question Mark and what to do it's interesting that again we kind of look at the history of what took place here in the West and if you go back to the 1960s and 70s when the California Oregon Enterty the AC systems were built and the DC was built from Oregon here down to LA again the fourth site at the time was that in California in the summertime and so energy from the northwest would flow during the summertime and then during the winter time when the peaks were in the north the energy would flow from California up into the north and that went on for quite a few years and now recently things have really changed with the daily shifting with solar flash hydro and the movement back and forth again I think if Patrick pointed out the electrons are going to flow where the electrons are going to flow the basics of physics will drive that but there is the opportunity to continue to think and how we operate the systems and how we do impact each other and I know Elliot Mainzer who now is the director of over the California ISO was over Bonneville and so we can think more regionally we have to think that way and I'm sure that's true as you were pointing out in Europe as it crosses over and political issues can get in the way at times but really we as industry need to really help and think through what is resource adequacy what is efficiency at the time how are you measuring those things and how do we make sure that we have a reliable system that is cost effective so lots of tough discussions that are going on right now as we try to plan and build out the season but I would say that the technology and information has become so much more important to us to be able to understand what is happening in the real time and so our planning is much much better than it ever has been in the past but getting that visibility into our systems is really making the difference okay any other comments from anyone can I have a question for Heidi at origin you know you're looking to phase out your coal plant in the next decade or so where do you see the greatest opportunity to maintain reliability while expanding the winter solar to substantial fraction of your generating capacity do you see it in the storage domain do you see it in manipulating demand do you see it on some other margin can you eliminate that where you see the greatest opportunity to maintain reliability while decarbonizing so all of those will come into play so how we relate to our customers so things like the virtual power plant which you know Larry and myself have spoken about the how we our spike program the demand response program in Australia rooftop solar uptake is one of the highest in the world so we in terms of energy literacy and customers engaging with this space and then being able to also educate them about how they can manage their demand to manage peak demand instances as well is quite critical to this space in terms of how we digitalize things and how we move forward and then there's also what do we replace a capacity with and how do we ensure that reliability and stability of the grid is maintained and that's where things like storage come into play for that space I can't remember as you or someone else was talking about installing household levels batteries and owning them and using them is that play a role or are customers expected to shell out for a battery backup so customers can also buy like a solar and battery kit but that does they definitely do feed into the demand management response side of things in terms of how we manage that I think sounds like Larry is they're right getting at the moment we are in the space where we have what we call a spike hour so we message your customers you know we're having a spike hour now to manage a you know can you turn off you know a pump your air conditioner those types of things and it sounds like Larry has gone the next step further there and they're you know actually getting into people's you know being able to control people's devices okay yeah Heidi is spot on that you know the demand response and think about it from a transportation perspective too you know the truck chargers that are coming that are a megawatt to a megawatt and a half have a significant impact on a distribution feeder you have batteries in there to buffer all of that comes to play here very quickly in helping the grid and where you have constraints on the system we call it the non-wire solutions at times but you know being able to plan for that is really important and to be able to see it and operate it or influence it sometimes you don't have to have the direct operations but if you can influence it and when it's charging that makes a real difference so yes we're doing that and the home battery also with vehicle charging times because if you have a time of use and a lot of utilities jump very quickly to a time of use program and so at 10 p.m. every night you have this reduced rate well if all I'll just say six houses with electric vehicles all charged at 10 p.m. well you just overloaded the transformer that serves those six houses so effectively you're not using the capacity in the system the right way so we've got to get smarter about charging batteries how they play here in the flexible mode good point so here's the last last question I'll direct this to Elizabeth this is from Zeno Swidge think and this is how does transporting electrons via hydrogen versus power lines compare and I'm not sure this is something you feel comfortable answering but anyway there it is economically policy-wise in a modern memory so I think the question does an excellent job of raising the various dimensions that have to be considered in making those trade-offs because the when you look at things strictly from an efficiency perspective the paradigm shift that I mentioned moving from a fuel basis to a much more direct electron type of basis system really changes how we think about things because electricity has historically been the highest quality most precious form of energy that gets used directly on things and so we're just not used to thinking about it as the starting point as is now the case when you have solar and wind producing those high quality electrons directly and so when you've got those electrons efficiency-wise the most effective thing is to use them directly with what you're doing because usage of electricity when you say look at electric motor and things like that just the ability to do work out of that system is very very high thermodynamically it's just a very high quality energy carrier and so when you start talking about conversions and you start especially when you start talking about going up the ladder of molecular conversions that efficiency profile just gets really really challenging very very quickly particularly when you then have to come back to electricity if you're coming back to electricity if you're using converting electrons to heat that's a fairly efficient process and so if you're using heat as your end use great if you're using hydrogen as a feed stock again great because you need that for its molecular characteristic when you're coming back to electricity it just it becomes about optimizing that option space and so when you start talking about you know again the cost the environmental pieces the just space just dimensionality that is in that calculation that's part of the reason why we look at these very integrated systems I talked about that energy hub because it starts to help you frame up what for a given situation what is the usage profile for starting with those electrons great thank you very much we have reached the end of our two hours very quickly I do want to give the panelists a brief opportunity for any final words if they have them perfectly okay to say I've already I don't have anything to say so let's just go around and we might as well start with Elizabeth since she's right here thank you just very much appreciate the opportunity and really look forward to the rest of the sessions thank you thank you how about Larry again yes I'll chime in by saying thank you as well great discussion love to hear it this international Australia Europe US shall be kind of spread all over great to kind of have this variety and I guess I would just challenge us all take a look at Kennedy's Rice University speech and think about what should inspire us if we're going to the moon we're going to solve the greenhouse gas issue what is it but we all need to be moving that direction thank you thank you Larry Patrick yes yes thank you for the invitation yes it was interesting to share this idea to share some idea with you and I still believe that the title beats and what is very relevant so digitalization we play a big role in the transformation of the system so I believe that some part of the clues that we need between local solution and global solution so I think that it's still a very good title thank you for that thank you Patrick and Heidi who's already way ahead of us she's on Thursday I am it's early Thursday morning here no I'd just like to say thank you for the opportunity it's been really great the discussion's been really great fantastic questions and really interesting to see the perspective from all the speakers so thank you thank you very much so I'd like to thank you all for joining us and on behalf of Leon Min who's our executive director Ram Dar Ram Rajagopal thank you so much for joining us and we look forward to hosting something on the grid similar to this in two weeks time and I'd also like to thank Wahila Wilkie who's the woman behind all of this so thank you very much well you've done for this way thank you very much have a great day and Heidi have a good morning