 They would last for as much as an hour and we'd have to go sometimes, several times a week. Thank you, Nathan. I was muted. Really? That's funny. Somebody's TV was coming through. So the YouTube live stream is now up. Just as a note, there is a chat on the live stream page as well. So when we get to the discussion and QA, we can just keep an eye on the Zoom chat and the YouTube chat to see if people have questions. But with that, take it away, David. Thanks very much to all of you who are attending the talk either here with us on Zoom or on YouTube. We are collectively the media and entertainment special interest group at Hyperledia. I will turn off my email. And for those of you who haven't met us before, what we do is regularly bring together people from academic and creative and industry venues in order that we can work together on some shared solutions to applications of blockchain technology in, as you might guess, both media and entertainment spheres. So what we are very lucky to have tonight, excuse me, is two very special guests. We have Roshan Joseph and Brendan Cooper, who will speak to us about one of the hottest topics in NFT and you certainly have the last couple of weeks once we'd all forgotten about people's $79 million aggregated fine artwork. A lot of attention has turned almost simultaneously to blockchain and NFT technology with regard to collectibles in the sports world. I'll hand it over to Brendan and Roshan. All right, thank you very much, David. We're excited to be participating in this SIG and yeah, this time is really, really exciting for us. The mainstreaming of the NFT technologies and it's a rival. It's its rapid arrival into the public consciousness and, and, you know, showing up on major talk radio and news shows all over the world. It's just really exciting. For Penini. Well, actually, first let's start off with some introductions. I'm Brendan Cooper. I lead digital transformation on the director of digital systems and blockchain for Penini America. I'm operating with Penini Group. And we'll talk a little bit about the company, but I'll let Roshan introduce himself. My name is Roshan and I'm with XQ Labs. And I head up the, you know, the digital practice for customer experience at XQ Labs and we've been working very closely with Brendan and his team at Penini on curating the blockchain marketplace at Penini. So yeah, really excited to be here and looking forward to this conversation. Okay. So let's, let's jump in. I'll start off talking about Penini a little bit. We're going to take about 30 minutes. We're going to charge through this slides. It's going to start out and we're going to talk a little bit about what we were trying to achieve with our hopper ledger sawtooth instance. And then we're going to pivot and actually show you what's deployed and in production. Just a quick show and tell so you can see all the cool stuff that we're doing. And then we'll dive in and talk about the technical implementation, the architecture, how it's configured and, and why we made the choices that we did. So Penini is the world leader in collectibles. We're a multi-billion global organization. We're a 60-year-old company. We're based out of Modena, Italy. They entered the North American market in 2009. We are the leader in trading cards and sticker albums and every four years, the FIFA World Cup is a global cultural phenomenon. And everyone in Europe and South America is well familiar with it. But it's it's huge. And of course, the trading card categories exploded in the last few years. And we're the official officially life's collectibles in that category with NFL, FIFA, MLB PA and lots of other licenses. We're charged with taking care of and being stewards of 120-year-old category and protecting a 60-year-old brand and some of the most globally recognized brands in the world. And so we feel like we've been really conservative in how we've approached our implementation of NFTs. Our number one focus has been on collectibility and we'll talk about that a little bit more, but I'll hand it off to Rosh and let him talk a little bit about XQ Labs. Sure. Thank you. So, I mean, we are a company based out of Dallas and what we do is help our clients create digital solutions for problems that they have. So, we've started working with Panini on the blockchain platform that Coop was mentioning. It's been about a year and a half. And I think some of the technology choices that we made on the blockchain side is really paying off now in terms of Panini has always been a market leader on the physical trading card side. And with the choices that have been made on the technology side, I think we've been able to help Panini with transforming that side also on the digital side, mainly with the NFTs and the way it's been exploding now. So I think Panini is in the position now, poised to just go upwards from here. And we've been happy to be a part of that journey. And yeah, like Coop said, some of the following slides we're going to be talking about the architecture of the way we structured in terms of the blockchain itself. And yeah, so that's a quick introduction about me and the company. I let Coop take you all through a little bit of the business side and the legal side and then we'll jump in on the technical side a little later. Okay, so when we started evaluating what was possible with blockchain technology, we knew that scarcity was key. And in the collectible industry, scarcity is the game scarcity is what we're trying to achieve. We don't have to create real time complex game experiences. We need to deliver scarcity. And so creating the most collectible officially licensed NFT. That's possible. It was our objective. And we strongly believe that the thing you experience is the thing you collect and owning only a token isn't really a collectible. And because we deployed the hyper ledger sawtooth, and we're running a private network, we can make strong representations legal representations about what you get, and about the customer experience whereas lots of other competitors in this space aren't able to do that because we're using public infrastructure as their primary blockchain and they're also they can't make the same legal representations about claims of the asset. And we'll talk about that a little bit more in a bit, but the our technical implementation, we're taking a tokenized hashed asset, and we're actually able to grant rights in the actual digital asset in the property itself. And that's unusual in the world of NFTs where most of the terms of service require you to indemnify the technology provider that the experienced provider. And it also forces them to create an NFT where you only have ownership of a token, and a token in itself is pretty weak. I've got a wallet from with lots of digital collectibles that have expired and gone away or they lost the license and they're gone. So we're doing it a different way and we can make really strong claims. So let's go to the next slide. Okay, so right now our community blockchain products. We're basically have three variations we're selling a digital NFT collectible. And that's a digital only product. We have a digital NFT collectible with a physical trading card as a gift. And then finally we have a physical bonus card, which is a physical card that can be redeemed with the scratch off on the back and and so you can actually redeem it for the digital NFT collectible it looks kind of like this. This is an example of one that back would include a scratch off QR code and barcode that can be redeemed at our site. Let's go to the next slide. So we're representing a lot of the brands that I talked about earlier. And I think this is our, our jump off point. It's really exciting to represent these brands they have, you know, we're capturing some of the most transcendent moments in sports with our instant products where these are products that come out in the day after a major sporting event. We have some of the leading brands, our brands are collectible brands. These are Penini brands. We use to carry these licenses and their subjects the athletes, we're doing several thousand individual contracts a year with athletes and entertainers all over the world to create our products. Let's go to the next slide, Russian. Okay, so I'm about to show you the Penini blockchain platform. We're going to go to the site and we'll review it. There's a few things you should know we have the blockchain store, and we have a Dutch auction, a flash auction, and just a direct buy or a straight buy. And we have an auction marketplace. And then we have this unique code that can be redeemed that we're talking about on the physical cards, which we're calling bonus cards. So I think from there we can jump in the point is there's lots of different ways to actually purchase these collectibles and there's different ways to actually for users once they purchase them to auction them to each other. And it's a pretty exciting game to play where scarcity is the game. So here we're at the landing page of the Penini America site. And if we you can see we can click through and we can look at what's available by license. Right here we have featured blockchain cards you go down Russian. Yeah, so here we have a Maradona card. And these are set up on a Dutch auction. You see it's trending down over time normally these are set up at five days at a time. I'm sorry for a five day span. And then the value will decrement over time until someone claims the card and actually purchases it. Now this is a Penini blockchain card with the gift. So we have a contractually guaranteed NFT, which is here. And we have a physical card that'll actually accompany this and we'll ship it to you wherever you are in the world. And we'll ship that card to you. We're using a Dutch auction. We have flash auctions, which are time and create lots of excitement energy around the competition of auction that's going up. And then we have the declining auctions or the Dutch auction. So you can see those were currently priced at about $16,000 we've had products that have individual cards that have been selling for $65,000. And that's really exciting price point for some of the some of these are going to be the earliest officially licensed NFTs ever ever issued. And we're excited about that. Of course, they have a life right now on the closed Penini platform. And, you know, there's every expectation that they can take on and enter a broader world as the technology matures. So really, really excited about the experience that we're creating. You can see here. We're looking at the public auction facility. And this is where users have cards in their collection and they can put them up for auction and auction them themselves. And they can set it up. Just like other public auction sites where they have a buy now price or and then they'll accept different bids and they'll evaluate those and reject them as they see fit. You can see that there's a timer on everything that creating scarcity regimes in the context of collectibles is really important. And these scarcity regimes apply to the products themselves, but also the point of sale where we see here, auctions really benefit from focusing on the time dimension and the scarcity of time in which to acquire these assets. And so it's really, really exciting, high energy, got a lot of participation. And at this point, the biggest challenge we have is that the price point on our products is moved is really high. There's a lot of demand. And it, as far as being up for a mass market, we need lower price points and we're really excited about our next steps. And I can't talk about what that looks like, but there's a lot of new stuff coming in the future. And we think we've got some of the best NFTs in the world right here. Let's see. So this is a look, a brief look at what we've got the cards that are acquired going to your penini wallet. And what you're looking at is the Penini America e-commerce platform. Everything that you've seen has a mobile companion and we've got a mobile app that is gives you the same experience and access to the full site. And we're really excited because we got Penini has a unified customer experience, both for its physical trading cards. NFTs and as well as all of the other products that we sell like sticker and albums. And of course they're organized and we got memorabilia and they're also organized across different years and brands. Because we have some of the leading collectible brands in the world. Let's see. Russian, could you drill down one more time on one of these cards? Let's have a look at it. Look at the detail. So you can see here we have a description and everything that you see that's part of the detail, the name, the skew, the photo, the description, all of this is being hashed and put on the blockchain. And we were really excited about that because what it means is the consumer has an immutable record and they've got ownership of that record. That gives them a claim on the assets themselves. So both the images and the metadata that represents it. And so that makes a really, really strong collectible. In the future there's a way and the technology is emerging to let us create a fully encapsulated digital collectible in NFT that can actually go into your wallet, your cold storage, or it can be placed elsewhere in the public infrastructure. And so that technology is developing very rapidly. As I mentioned earlier, Sebastian Post at lyceum.app and with the ISEC and the OCCP is really doing a lot of work that most of the industry doesn't know about yet. But I sure he's going to be extremely critical to the future of NFTs in general and NFT collectibles very especially. So let's, I think from there, I think we're back to the presentation. Let's see, let's mark time here. Roshan, I think I took about four minutes of your time. But I think that's okay. I think we're good. We're shooting for about 30, 35 minutes here on the presentation. Hopefully we can open up for questions. And I guess if you have questions, jump in or we can take them at the at the end of the presentation. Just jumping off from where you left off to showing all an example of what's on the website. So some of the key elements that go on to the blockchain itself. The key part being the product, the art of the card that's created which are beautiful cards that go on to the chain. So that group mentioned we hash those the metadata on the card is, you know, stored on the chain. The other information of course is of the customer. You know, the, the private keys of companies, those are stored on. And like you all saw that we have a public auction marketplace. So anytime there's a transfer of ownership that takes place from Panini to a user and we buy the card first time, or once the transfer happens in the public auction, there's always a change of ownership that's also recorded on the on the chain. So some of the key information there that goes on to the chain. And in terms of the technology itself that we're using. You know, when cooking, when the Panini team approached us about a year and a half ago to build this private blockchain network. Some of the key requirements they had was, you know, one was to have a distributed ledger architecture, which is an enterprise grade blockchain system. And also to have a private blockchain system which probably at a later point in time can be bridged or have a gateway to some of the public networks out there. So a user that currently has a card or maybe the Panini network may have an option at a later point to choose to move the card from the Panini network over to any of the public networks that Panini chooses as well. So that's something that we had to keep in mind while, while, you know, making a technology choice. And of course, we agreed to have a ledger, which is publicly visible at a time that Panini decides to make that visible as well. So those were some of the key constraints or key challenges that we had in terms of picking the network. And during our concept that we were working with the sort of hyper ledger was a clear winner in that sense. And so that's the reason why we chose the sort of network and then built our framework and our back end, you know, based on this, this technology. And I just want to quickly take you all through two journeys. One is that of the, the back office or the admin who helps mint these cards, as mentioned, there's a, there's a rarity aspect that goes into it. And then there's also the front end user, which is the customer himself when he buys these products and then decides to transfer it out. So just, just the admin journey when, once, once the team at Panini has decided the rarity of what goes into a collection what kind of cards go into the collection that's when the minting of the card actually starts on our, on our back office tool, where there's a meeting service that then talks to the hyper ledger sort of framework. This is where we build all our business rules, where, you know, some of the card validations of the card matter property that and goes as a part of the product itself need to be available, and this is where any duplication of data is checked and deleted or eliminated. And from there, you know, these, these are written onto the blockchain, and then, in turn, your, your transactions and completed as an admin that's when the, the birth of the card play takes place or that's a Genesis point. So where the journey shifts hands, that's when you have the, the, either the Dutch auction, like who showed us a little while ago, fixing, or we have a flash option or buy now concept where users can then decide to buy these products. And, you know, once they buy it at a decent price point they can then decide to put it on a public auction and then trade it out or decide to keep it in their wallets and then preserve it for forever right so so that's kind of like the journey that the user has in an architectural standpoint and how we're leveraging the, the sort of network to accomplish this, this part. And we have several nodes that are running on the AWS cloud so once these nodes come together, you know, they sink in and every time there's a request that passes through either for a user making a purchase or maybe the admin making a new card. And then it all passes through these services and they come together, and that's when the, the entire network kind of comes together. So, yeah, in a nutshell, that's, that's the flow on the, on the architecture side that I had to showcase the old. Yeah, back to you. Okay. Yeah, I think, Russia, I think we can go to the, the next slides I mean I think we're ready to go. We finally had, you know, a few things, few more things on the, on the kind of an architecture itself on this slide so. Okay, this is just getting into more detail in case we need to but I guess our previous slide in terms of that journey, kind of, you know, narrates the whole story about how that journey happened so I think we can open it up to any questions or anything else that you have to do. Okay. So, we'll rest there for a minute and let, we're excited to hear from everyone. I'm watching I'm reading some of the chats right now. Yeah. Pretty awesome. It's such early days right I mean it's exciting to see where it's all going to go. It is really early days, and I have to tell you. When we first stood up our hopper ledger saw two instance, our first node, we were really excited there was. And again this this would have been what the summer of 2019 fall of 2019 and our teams. You know the documentation's gotten stronger things are but you know I was really pleased at how fast we were able to stand it up. And, and that was that really was very reassuring to me because we're operating at the frontier. I've got to go to my company leadership I've got to, you know, communicate set expectations to the enterprise and they're trusting me to make the right call and I'm working with Roshan his team to to get there and, you know, as a veteran in the custom development, you know, going through that process, you're looking for different signs that maybe you over represented what you could actually pull off and when you're operating at the frontier, you know there's always the surprise moments and I can tell you that this one we felt really confident going into and of course, one of the exciting things and great things about Penini is that the company takes a really long view of the market and when they decided to enter this they made a really strong commitment to this to the space. It wasn't the kind of thing where, okay Brendan you have to go discover the market and find it and you know it needs to work in 2020. And of course it did it worked immediately. It was well received. We were when we launched we really just focused on our existing collector base, we didn't reach out to the larger community. We felt like that was kind of like boiling the ocean. We're happy that everyone else has been able to do that for us. I mean, honestly, that's been it's fantastic for us because that can be really difficult, and you don't know how long that's going to take. And now the NFTs are in the common vernacular we can. We're really excited about that it really is makes everything from here on out easier but working, living with this technology and using it day in and day out has proven to be better and easier and faster than I certainly expected I stepped into this space with several years of watching it and you know it's difficult it's a difficult technology it's punishing when you're wrong. And I mean it requires you to. It's just different I mean it's a lot different than you're not just failing fast and going forward with this technology. You know that that doesn't fly with this kind of technology and so about that as a rights holder right like in this is so as a rights holder and this is a new palette this is new real estate this is a new technology it's just like getting the camera for the first time or getting the film. You know whatever a new technology like how are how is panini approaching that I mean are you approaching it strategically or is it just you know we're going to put our or in the water because everybody knows this is a big deal and this is a no brainer. Yeah, I like to think that I mean we had I mean again we deployed. This was in production in January 6 of 2020. And so, I feel like that's ahead of a lot of people ahead of all the other enterprises okay so we've been doing this and in production for you know more than 14 months right now and so, and having said that you know representing panini as a 60 year old brand and this really long established category and the big license some of the largest license doors. But there, there was some risk and there is technology risk with this but fundamentally we have cut our teeth on digital collectibles. Prior to this with mobile free to play apps, we have officially licensed mobile free to play apps. On the Google and Apple stores, we've also deployed them for the FIFA World Cup on 10 cents sports and news network inside in China. And so, these mobile free to play games, let you collect digital trading cards that are in no way associated with blockchain technology or FT and we were. Yeah, and so we have the penini blitz for which is officially NFL product. And then we have an officially licensed NBA product called penini dunk, and then we have the FIFA trader, which is for the FIFA World Cup in 2018. And we pushed maybe 7 million users through these and so we're well familiar with. And we're surprised very pleasantly surprised that people wanted to collect, even though they couldn't own the thing when you enter into Google, or Apple's terms of service on their mobile apps. I made the, the, the sweet and the scope of those terms of service, basically deny a user any recourse for any reason, we could take those things down tomorrow and users have no recourse. But what we learned is that users, they want the content, you know, the content is key. And the tokens not key. And when we took this platform, we're talking about NFTs. But when we took it into production, 1415 months ago, we went to our existing collectors and you know what, they didn't really we didn't get a lot of questions about the technology. Like they trusted the brand. They know that peninis are world leader in collectibles. And if we say this thing's a collectible, they trusted us to deliver them a collectible. And now that the concept of the NFT is mainstreamed and there's a lot of people, new people entering this space, and they're asking really hard pointy questions about what they're getting and why it's collectible. And we're in exactly the right position. We're right where we want to be. We have a very collectible product because it was engineered from the ground up to be as collectible as the technology would let us be. And what's exciting is the way the, the space and the technology is evolving. We're going to be able to evolve with it and we've made a really exciting and early investment, certainly against all of the larger, you know, global licensees in the space. I could just jump in there. We've got quite a few questions building up on chat. Yep. I don't know if you guys can see them. Teds is the first one in the middle. Here we go. Okay, yes, thank you. Let's see. What happens specifically to the asset when the auction ends if it's not purchased. We take them back into inventory. They sit on with the, you know, in their Genesis block, and sometimes we'll re-list them. And this has actually happened before. But that was early at this point, the market's so hot. Everything that we put up is selling and so we can re-list it. Now, one of the things I didn't cover is part of being a collectible company is make, you make very public claims. And I've talked about the legal terms of service and our technical implementation. But as part of that, you also make a public claim of how many of something you're making. And that's, I mean, that's in our DNA. We don't make a collectible product where we don't tell you. And we call them checklists. But everything we make, every product, is going to contain multiple cards. There's going to have different levels of scarcity by cards and card type and players. And we explain that we make public representations about what those are so that, and we never change that. Isn't there an FTC requirement around that too? Like a couponing requirement? Okay, so you're talking about the no purchase necessary. Or couponing in general, like the face value and some of the legal requirements in terms of... Yeah, so the legal requirements don't actually require us to... Well, they require us to specify the odds of getting something, okay? And so we either have to specify the odds per pack or we have to specify the product and the content that's in it. And so we represent that using a checklist that people can download and can verify. So we're making those claims. And again, this is something that a lot of the startups and the early participants in the NFT collectible space aren't doing. And when you're in a collectible category, there is this really strong pressure to create supply to match demand. And in the collectible space, supply has to always be below demand. And so you've heard the meme going around, the money printer go brrr, okay? So because in currencies and cryptocurrencies, the attraction of the cryptocurrency is you can't just run the presses. It's the same thing in the collectible business. We can't just... There's three times as much demand. We don't just run the printers three or four times longer and grab all the money, okay? So our products are constructed with a brand identity and with a long tradition and a history of how we construct scarcity, how those cards are numbered, how they're serial numbered, and that there's fixed quantities of them. And collectively, those operate just like a bonding curve would inside cryptocurrencies that are being issued today. That bonding curve or in our case, these numbering schemes or scarcity regimes, they operate to govern supply and how much supply can be created. So we can't just run the presses forever and make more and we can't just make the NFT... We can't just keep clicking the NFT button forever and make millions of them. We have very defined parameters and claims that we make publicly so that everyone could be assured of what they're getting and the value that they're getting. So on that score, there's a couple of questions, maybe for Roshan from Heidi. Can a fan use cryptocurrency to purchase the NFT? And then can a fan sell their NFTs on a non-Panini secondary market which serves Ethereum-based NFTs? And if so, what Oracle are you using? That's a good question, Heidi. So at this moment, a fan cannot buy a crypto-collectible using a cryptocurrency. It's just on using... it's traded on USD and then you can just use your credit card or your PayPal account to go ahead and make a purchase. But this is something that's definitely in the works in terms of being able to use a cryptocurrency to make a purchase on the Panini marketplace itself. So that's something that's definitely in the works. We are working towards getting that on there soon. Yeah, and for the secondary market, right now it's only on the Panini market for secondary sales. And creating those gateways and on-ramps is an obvious step and is something that we're looking at very carefully and excited about that future possibility. I can't talk about anything that's on the roadmap though. So I'm sorry, Heidi, did you have another question? Yeah, I was just going to say I actually think that the larger opportunity is for those non-crypto holders because the barrier to entry, I'm in the space and it's difficult. It's confusing. The majority of people, they're not going to enter that space if there's that stickiness there. So thank you for your answer. Sure. One of the things that we looked at and that helped in our decision making early on is as a mass market company, we have millions of customers all over the world. And the one thing that we know for sure and anyone operating in the mass market does is that if a user or consumer can lose their password, they will. And trying to explain that these are bare instruments and if you lose your keys, they're gone forever and you've got $100,000 or $1 million portfolio, which by the way is not unusual for some of our larger customers, explaining to them that if they lost their keys, it's gone forever. Like, that's real hard marketing. My VP of marketing Jason Harris is like, yeah, that's not a story I can tell. I'm not telling that story in 2019 when we're giving shape to this. And of course at this time, the wallets are maturing, their social recovery, their shepherd recovery models, multi-sig, there's lots of things that are going to emerge that are going to let consumers recover their keys. And being in a position, and we're going to put them in a position where if they want their own custody, they can have it. And Panini's out and it's your keys and if you lose them, they're gone. Or you can share custody with this and if you get in trouble, we're going to help you out. It's a common exchange model, right? I mean, that's what you're used to be and more common, but yeah, the custodian, you're already a custodian of your content, right? Or the content you've given them license to own. That's right. That's right. And the future iteration would give them custody, right? And that's definitely the target. Well, that's an interesting thing too. I mean, and I'm assuming that, I mean, I don't want to get everyone too far away from the nuts and bolts and technical stuff, but the legal side of things. How does the legal line up with the code? And, you know, is it, is it, is the technology something that gives you more of a palette of opportunities, kind of like a creative commons was invented for that purpose, right? You know, does it give you a bigger palette of opportunities that allow you to orchestrate rice arrangements and derivative arrangements that are more, you know, rich than you would with the physical object or in conjunction with the physical object too. And I'm wondering about this concept of digital twins as well, you know. Well, so, so there's a whole world. That's as you suggest that we can absolutely look into the future and see lots of different rights, the rights we give our users a claim in the digital asset, which is more a legal claim. There's more rights in the digital asset, and that's more than, than most all other NFTs that are being published today. So we're really proud of that. In the future. Yeah, there's a lot more rants and rights and derivative works that could at the option of the licensure, but any is the licensee that could emerge and be attached to these, digital assets. And, you know, that would be something that's that's possible in the future, if the licensures want to do that. And I'm expecting at some point the markets going to emerge for those those types of arrangements and some more standards probably to Yeah, I think there's lots of standards, you know, it's one of the things that's really missing in the industry and you can see it based on the actual technical implementations. So if you go to a major licensure and you're trying to articulate why your NFT is better and offers stronger claims on collectability. You know, there's not a third party to evaluate that you know, so I use the example if you're if you're Disney company and Disney's licensing out little princess umbrellas. So Disney's not an expert in umbrellas, but they do know that in the contract they can have a UL listing, right and they can have that that umbrella certified as being safe and workable for their brand and for the demographic it's targeted at. And, and, you know, so there's different certifying bodies I expect to emerge hitting the Department of Commerce requirements and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's all coming. Yeah, which is great. A couple more questions here from my family actually. First one is, are the so are the sort of smart contracts implemented in go lang or solidity or perhaps another language. Yeah, it's, it's another language we're using, you know, currently not using any of those. So we're using the hyperlegislative Java JavaScript framework right now, you know, for that part. And the second question. I think there was one question that we missed just before that. Yeah, exactly. Sorry. Yes, I gave you two at once. Oh, was the one before that. Yeah, there was one to Brendan as well about the legal description to what a financially owns. Yeah, sorry, I was grabbing the two questions from having. Yeah, no, please, please address Brendan's and we'll come back to Mohammed. Yeah, you want to take that. Okay, so, yeah, so, so the what we've done in our terms of service is we have created owner, a user has an ownership claim on the NFT. They're granted non commercial rights and they don't have copyright but they have non commercial rights in the digital asset, and everything and not just the image, but everything that makes up the the collectible so the description, the long description the short description. And all of that is is hashed and on the blockchain, and we can make a strong legal claim because of the way that's that's been engineered. And that's in our terms of service. And I think it's it's one of the strongest ones in the industry and, you know, we're dedicated to making that even stronger and in the future but frankly the only thing that's really left is is custody. It's an asset and a bill of materials that you're turning into a hash that has documented authority. That's right. And then Mohammed second question was, are the digital assets in other words the images stored on your cloud database rather than IPS IPFS to provide a more robust ownership guarantee to buyers. Right, so so I hope I answered your first question so that that one's on a, you know, hyper ledger framework on the sort of JavaScript framework on my pleasure. And to answer your second question, we are not using the IPFS framework. We currently on our, on our secure cloud network where we're storing the images there. So, you know, that part becomes a little, little tricky for the users right so images are, you know, the ownership that the user has in terms of the product itself. So the manipulation of those images is something that we don't allow. So that's something that's stored on our secure cloud so that we don't allow manipulation of those images in any way. Yeah, no, I mean that's exactly that was exactly my point, you know, IPFS is out in the public so anybody can claim that they own the asset and they can create a duplicate token or anything like this. So yeah, thank you for addressing this question. Yeah, you know I'm really intrigued by the use of sawtooth by you guys, you know. And maybe Brendan can add to this as well in terms of, you know, I think Brendan was talking about how there's a limited amount of cards that are minted, or the limited amount of copies that are there in circulation. So I think where Nini is done or doing an excellent job in terms of preserving that rarity or the ownership for users comes in that that portion where there are limited amount of assets that are printed. There's no duplication of these assets, each one of these are unique individual assets. So, you know, in terms of ownership, there is, you know, once the owner comes out, there's no duplicate copy of that as I would produce. Kind of like what Brendan was talking about the checklist and the amount of cards that can be minted within a specific collection. Yeah, every every card is unique. We're not wrapping it and putting a number next to it and saying okay this is the first one and having another wrapper for the next one that's the second one each, each digital asset is a unique asset and if it's run through a hashing function is going to give you a different hash value. And again, that's by design, and that's to make the each individual digital collectible the strongest NFT that we can make the most collectible assets we can make. Yeah, I think these are some really key differentiators so yeah thanks for elaborating on those. Sure. Brett's got a really vital archival question which is Will Panini offered to rework their legacy trading cards for their clients who are adapting to NFT. So are you going to work your way through your back? Well, I'll tell you what, I think the NFT technology. Maybe not as it's deployed today, there's still some things to really complete and make the NFT collect as strong as it can be, but there are companies with many, many billions of dollars in back catalog assets that can be monetized in the future. Why can't I just mail you my cards and have you create NFTs from them and you hold on to them in escrow. Okay, so now you're taking me down a path where we're talking about what is possible. Something you probably can't talk about. Well, I can say, well, I mean there's a lot in the public domain and I'm happy to share that Nathan. And what's understood in the public domain is if you take a physical collectible and you have strong authentication on it, you can separate ownership using an NFT and then have custody. Okay, so Panini or a third party could custody the asset and have it in their vaults that are super secure so I don't have to insure or have uninsurable assets worth millions of dollars. Your insurance is lower anyways. Right, that's right. And so in this case, and then the NFT can trade on an aftermarket. And of course it represents a call option on the physical thing anytime that you want to take custody of it. And that's a pretty exciting thing. All the DeFi rails that enable that same asset to either have fractional ownership or be part of a group together so that it's part of an investment portfolio and then you buy shares into that. All that's possible. But ultimately all those assets are part of a supply chain that you're pulling together into an asset in a manufacturing process, not unlike you are with a physical thing and that's why this sort of model of that matching up with a digital twin and that content from engineering really works well. And it's interesting David because you know there's an opportunity to have effects in the film industry where you can allow contributors and assets and clearance to happen in this method and reduce you know insurance and time to get movies into distribution by orders of magnitude. And it's something that I've been working on for about two years. Okay. And you can imagine what kind of an effect that that would have in the industry in terms of velocity and content and also the derivative and the cat, you know, being able to monetize your catalog more easily right. Everybody's got a DRM who's got a big catalog and you put a factory on the front of it and now you've got basically a stamp to mint out new content right I mean that's that's what this boils down to. Yeah. Daniela has a question. Who is currently running the nodes and long term who should be or will be. Yeah. Rosa and you want to take you take the first part and I'll take the second part. All right. So, yeah, I mean it's a private blockchain so the nodes are currently owned and run by the mini itself. And in terms of a longer term picture, maybe I'll let you answer that. So, so one of the reasons to select sawtooth was it looked like a really strong choice for a federated private blockchain and to operate a consortium. You know, one of the values of decentralized public blockchain. And one of the notional values anyway I should say is that it can first user insulates them from going concern risk so that if the parties that are actually minting and creating assets and issuing things on that blockchain. If that entity goes away, then the asset that's on the public blockchain can survive that and you insulated from the going concern risk. So if you look at the, the right now at this, the, this point in the development of the technology and the development of the industry. If you had to bet on a 60 year old global company, Nene to deliver your collectible or, you know, a start up. The companies that probably the better bet. And, but again it doesn't insulate you what what we're doing doesn't insulate you from that. But at the moment you invite other licensees or global licensures into the network. You created something where now you have to have really really surprising world changing. You have to have a dynamic impact to actually infringe upon whatever you might own on a blockchain that's on a consortium. So maybe Panini wants to embrace that and develop that consortium. Maybe they don't. Either way, we're in a position where we can pivot and do that. If it looks like that's more valuable than our other choices. But again, you know I'm looking at the pace of change on the public networks and you know I'm optimistic that it's, I mean we're in the early days, it's going to be where either or. I don't think it's. Yeah, well that was my point. It's the second part of my question, right? Neither or. And I think your answer, Brandon was right on and by the way I'm on Hyperledger staff. So your answer was right on is that you've chosen a technology that allows you to start at one point. And if needed or if the market demands are essentially if your customers right and the your network demands that you can expand that way as well. So that's great to hear. Yeah. I think I can take the next question from on the gas cost so so one of the reasons why we choose the private network, you know also bouncing off your earlier question was that the entry barrier we want to keep that low. So, in this case there is no, you know, mingling cost or gas cost involved here. So it's more just the compute cost in terms of what we are being cost so none of that is passed on to the user. So it's what you pay for the asset is what you get. So yeah, in terms of that, that aspect there is no mingling cost more or more so because it's a private network can be using, you know, trading and just dollars at this point. Yeah. I've just got a question from YouTube. I'm just reading them out because a lot of people are obviously on the audio alone so sure. Here's a question from YouTube. Do you charge a fee for the sales of any assets. Could you please elaborate on that. We, we have in our terms of service a schedule of transaction fees for any aftermarket transactions that are happening on our platform, and it's tiered. And it runs from a few percent down to 1% and it's basically set up so that we can recover costs for standing up infrastructure and creating the environment for the aftermarket to operate. And, you know, one of the things that that's certainly exciting about this technology is. The needy can create these experiences and the consumer gets to operate on the platform and conduct the and do the kinds of things that they're used to doing out in the wild and Web 2.0 infrastructure. Like eBay, for example. And there's no packaging. They don't have to authenticate. They don't have to take photos and upload them and post them. It's a it's a very seamless experience. And these transaction fees help us stand up that infrastructure. And, you know, the rationale behind it is to keep it as low as possible so that there's a vibrant and active aftermarket. And also, we, you know, we want those fees to be low because the interesting thing about the trading card in in January of this year, Bank of America put trading cards into the luxury good category for their analysis purposes. And I think that was long overdue. The modern trading card trades anywhere from a dollar to $10,000 per pack. And, you know, on the high end, there are jewels and autographs and game used memorabilia and that and precious metals that are going into the products. And so a lot of people don't know that about the category. But on the lower end, this is where people embrace and we've got a really broad population that are interested in trading, you know, at values below $10. So we want to make that interesting and affordable and exciting for them as well. Kyle, any plans to work with a company like infinite objects.com which is a video printing service so you have short looping videos within a within a physical frame for example. Well, so, so our products we specialize in officially licensed products and video typically falls into a different licensing category. And there's different ways for the licensors to partition that I think that the short answer is no, because that's not really what we're doing as a as a collectible company. We do have lots of fantastic video where we're we spend lots of time with the athletes throughout their career and each year throughout the season as they play their autographing our cards. And it's part of that so we're really engaged with athletes they know who we are. And we get to interact with them a lot and so we've got a lot of video there you know those possibilities exist. You know, videos for example I think they're the NFL just signed the $200 billion agreement for their video rights. They take those pretty seriously they really help pay the freight for the for the big license wars. And so video maybe maybe not but we could. I mean we certainly the item question though I think is important like he was talking about putting this or she was talking about putting video in a physical item what about. Oh, thank you Nathan I think I'm sure I missed that. Thanks for the clarification. We've actually built cards that had many screens and devices that could actually present a video and we've done that before. No, it was really just a standalone card that was had a pretty thick aspect, and it was interesting people collected them, but we didn't that the community, the trading card community didn't really feel like they, they were part of what they were doing. And again, that's, that was I think we experimented with you ever offer like a hockey stick or a puck or a ball or some some artifact along with a set of cards or a card. Sure. So, yeah, so on the panini site, there's lots of different memorabilia that we sell we have officially autographed our panini authentic division specializes in basketballs and jerseys shoes and helmets, you know, lots of different memorabilia that's signed by the athletes and so. Yeah, I mean, the bundling and unbundling of those is super exciting using this technology. So we've got 60 seconds left and a very straightforward question from Brett asking whether you two guys will be presenting at the hyperlegic global forum. You know it sounds like a great idea. We haven't been invited yet but I stand ready to go wherever that is and do it. Where is it this year. Yeah, it's going to be in June virtual and unfortunately, okay, we'll save the big bang for BS. It's a virtual conference will happen in June. The call for proposals actually closed on Friday, but we're happy to talk to some folks as we fill in some of the gaps so Sure. Well, if you see there's a position you let let Roshan and I know Roshan can I can I count you and can I go ahead and vote you in here. Yeah, we'll be in and you know one of the I know you know we want to wrap up we want to be respectful everyone's time is you know as you can imagine we're getting a lot of inquiries you know at hyperledger from a staff perspective from companies. So you'd love to you know like Brandon and Roshan if someone came to you from you know an industry you know in the media industry for example or collectibles industry. Where would you tell them to start where do you start this journey. Yeah, I think you could reach out to either one of us on on LinkedIn that would be my preference and I would encourage everyone here to do that, Roshan. Right yeah I think so too yeah that'll be a good starting point and you know happy to fill in any questions from there. I'm on all the social media platforms. So you can find me out there, Brendan T Cooper. And I'm on everything so find me there. Great. Well I go to hundreds of meetups a year. And this is the only one that my daughter was like I want to come. She left about 20 minutes ago. I've heard enough you guys and I'll start talking hyperledger so thank you. Yeah, thanks very much to you both and thanks to everyone who's here because obviously we need both speakers and we need an audience. So for those of you further East from here. I apologize for keeping you up but Roshan and Brendan thanks very much. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Thank you so much. Everyone. Thank you. Awesome. Okay. Bye bye.