 It's Wednesday, it's 11 o'clock, it's July the 28th. That could be only one thing. It's time for What Now, America? I'm Tim Apachele, your host, and today's title of the show is U.S. To Follow France to Combat the Unvaccinated. You know, a couple of days ago, French President Macron said the following. I'm in favor of the French line right now. I no longer have any intention of sacrificing my life, my time, my freedom for those who refuse to be vaccinated. This time, they should stay home, not us. Well, that's pretty dramatic, pretty black and white, and that's something that the United States, either President Biden or former President Trump, would be hesitant to do, to say to the American people. Macron also said the following. I'm aware that of what I'm asking of you, I know that you're ready for this commitment. This is in a sense, part of your sense of duty. And on this show, we've talked many times before about Americans and whatever happened to our compact with one another, our social obligations to our fellow Americans. We certainly knew that it was strong in World War II and in the other conflicts, and it was certainly a country that came together during 9-11. But we now have a virus that's killed over 611,000 Americans, and yet we have maybe almost a third of our population who are refusing to be part of the solution to combat this virus. And it's not just the COVID virus anymore, it's the Delta virus, far more transmissible, far more virulent, and far more deadly. So let's address this. Let's address what France has done, and let's compare to what the United States might or might not do in the future as we combat the Delta variant. But before we do, I'd like to introduce our guests. This morning, we have Jay Fidel, Winston Welch, and Cynthia Lee, Sinclair. Good morning, one and all. Good morning, Tim. Hey, Jay. French President Macron is really putting it to him. He's saying, I'm done. I've had enough. We've had multiple shutdowns up and down. The economy has been racked, and now we're at a point where we can diminish or clamp down on this Delta variant. And I need cooperation for the French people to do so. So I'm going to make sure that you can't go in any public restaurant. You can't go in any public museums, any public government facilities, anything that's public. If you don't have a vaccination or proof of vaccination, you're not coming in. Pretty bold. What do you think? Great. Wonderful. And I've been thinking about my momentum theory on this. I'll tell you what it is. And I have a rhetorical question for you. The momentum theory is that Trump started all of this because he made us question government. He was skeptical of government. He was skeptical about the disease. And even though it was under him that they worked on the vaccine, somehow all that skepticism crossed over into the vaccine itself. And his skepticism has a momentum to it. And we're still having that. His base still carries that around. And as I was telling him before the show, Tim, I believe it's a gradient. His base is not a bright red line. It's not a sharp line. There are people who are not strictly speaking in his base. Maybe outside of his base, who are also, he used the term infected by this kind of skepticism. Skepticism about science, about the CDC, about medical research, he created it. Then we're living under that now, including people who were not in his base. It's terrible. But my return, that's my momentum theory. But the rhetorical question or idea I have for you is this. Had there been another president back then? Had Trump been a reasonable human being and not such a jerk? Glad he, the president, was she, said, look, we have an emergency on our hands. We have to treat it as an emergency. We have to wear masks. I'm going to make a national mandate on masks. I'm going to make this a national issue. I'm not going to fob it off on the states the way Trump did. And I'm going to require you to take the vaccine. I mean, I think Biden should do that now. You have to take it, and I'm going to make it clear that you have to take it. I'm going to do what Macron has done last week. Had this happened, this kind of attitude, this kind of charge attitude back in March of 2020, would we be having this conversation? People would have recognized it as an emergency, and they would have abided by the national government as their protector. But somewhere along the line, it got really screwed up. And now, but they don't. And then the tragedy is, it didn't have to be this way. Right. We could have had solutions all over the place if we'd only come together. Trump divided us on this, and we are still having the division. Let me explore your rhetorical question, because it was a good one. Because on this show, and for many years while we've been doing these shows, we talked about the nature of propaganda, and we have sliced and diced the elements of propaganda and how it works and why it works. But let me suggest one of the things about why we're not fully invested in vaccination as a population is because when you hear propaganda initially, you believe the first lie, and it takes far more and much momentum and energy and messaging of the truth for you to just dislodge yourself from the initial lie that you believed. And that is the power of propaganda. And I suggest, or it's my theory that most people listen to that first big lie that the COVID virus was a hoax. It was a democratic plot to undermine the president of the United States and his chances for reelection. And it's a government plot to make sure that you comply. And it's not necessary. And that's the lie they believe. And that's the lie that they can't shake. And that's why I think we are so resistant in getting a 70% compliance of vaccinations in this country, particularly, of course, in the red states. Yeah, I totally agree. That's my view of it also. And there's been quotes on that very point. It's relatively easy to set up a propaganda lie. It's much more difficult to reverse it, even if the person who wants to reverse it is the same person who set up the propaganda lie in the first place. And that's why Macron's message and his national proclamation on these points has met some resistance in France. Because it didn't happen right away. And because Trump's lie, Trump's propaganda affected more than just the United States. It affected everywhere. This is the kind of leadership he provided for the free world. And so Macron has a burden of running up a hill against that lie, that propaganda. And he's suffering it. And we're suffering it, too. I mean, even the reversal of the CDC mask ruling, the last one that they put out, which we all thought, we here all thought was a mistake at the time. The reversal of that is hard. And people are opposing it, objecting to it. What about my freedoms, my liberties, all that kind of propaganda? And so it's always hard to go back after you've lied to them. And we're having the same experience that Macron is having. Okay, thank you, Jay. Hey, Winston, in Joe Biden's, maybe tomorrow make an announcement. You're certainly doing it with the Veterans Administration that all federal facilities will require a vaccination before you enter the premise. Good idea. And then the second part of my question is, could Joe Biden try to pull off what Macron is doing in France? And that is to say, all public facilities, whether it be government, city, county governments, or just private industry, you ought to stay out of those institutions. We're not going to force you to get a vaccination, but we are going to force you from entering those premises so that you could potentially infect those who aren't vaccinated. Well, in fact, those that are vaccinated because there's the crossroads. There's the point where people were vaccinated are coming down with COVID. What do you think? Anything, any steps are in the right direction. So if he starts it with just federal buildings and courthouses and those sorts of things and says, if you're not vaccinated, then you must get a test before you enter this facility. And I don't see any reason why we shouldn't spread that to airlines. But if they don't spread it to airlines, then maybe we need to have completely different facilities for people that are vaccinated. But I think the route that we're seeing is not that. It's going to, it's the tide is turned. You're seeing the shifts in people that were vaccine hesitant before already moving in the direction of being vaccinated because they can see this is real. You know, as what we're doing here in Hawaii, I saw UH Manoa, 95% of the faculty and staff are vaccinated, 92% are vaccinated. The university has said, if you are not vaccinated as a student, okay, you can still be a student but you're not going to be able to participate in a lot of activities or have a hold certain jobs. And even if you, and that aside, that you will not have a full student experience, I think is how they phrase it, something along those lines. And they also said that you have to be tested every single week. And I think that is a, that's perfectly reasonable at this stage. One thing that you didn't mention when, when Macron said that, and again, we are having to look, I'm happy to see the French and the German standing up as leaders of the free world too. So that Joe Biden doesn't have to shoulder at all. He's dealing with the fair, Joe Biden is dealing with also very difficult population where maybe half, only half the population has been vaccinated where you have the governor of Missouri saying he will fight any laws that have people wear masks where you have five states where it's forbidden for children to wear masks in schools. These are insane laws that are being promulgated across the nation. So as Macron also said, he said, we cannot make those who have a civic sense to get vaccinated bear the burden of inconvenience. That's what Macron said. The restrictions will weigh on others. Those who for a reason incomprehensible in the country of Louis Pasteur, science and the enlightenment still hesitate to use the only weapon available against the pandemic, the vaccine. That is true. It's still the only weapon we have except complete isolation and quarantine. And he's just saying, no, I'm not staying at home anymore. You are, you don't want to go out. And eventually, I'm not sure how it's going to play out, but I could see that, that increasingly, you know, our governor, even in Hawaii, he's saying he's going to have a looking at a mandate for that. I think people are really, they're waiting for the FDA to give full approval to this vaccination. And then they'll say, everyone in the military has to get it. And the courts have already found that you can require this for your workers. So I think that the move is already going to be there. And people that don't get this are just going to be increasingly marginalized and shut out of public sphere. You know, this battle between Americans who are vaccinated and Americans who are not. I mean, when I was on the East Coast for 30 days, you know, some of these states were 75, 80, 85% vaccinated. And I, you know, I heard horrible things for my fellow Americans about those who are not vaccinated. And I've heard them in all sorts of circles, friends and all sorts of circles. And the one that really hurts my heart the most is, well, that's their choice. You know, if they're so ignorant, they don't want to get it. And if they die from the Delta variant, well, won't that just mean one less voter in 2022? And although it may be true, there may be a lot less GOP voters because they've perished or impaired by the Delta variant. That's a hell of a statement to say about our fellow American. But yet I hear it over and over again. I'm hearing it more and more times. What does this whole effect of the vaccinated versus the non-vaccinated Winston have upon are the polarity, the polarization of America? Well, it's a sad indictment of what we just experienced the last four years where people can be tricked into saying the black is white and white is black or up is down and down is up. And unfortunately, it falls more disproportionately on our Republican compatriots here. And that's that's a real tragedy because this is not a partisan virus. It's not seeking out people who are Republicans or Democrats or independents. It's seeking out humans. It's seeking out all people who live in this country, whether you're a resident alien, whether you're undocumented, whether you're a citizen, it doesn't matter. You need to get vaccinated. I think people are waking up to that. They're waking up to it also feeds into well, what else have I been lied about? So perhaps this is going to be helping to open eyes. You know, the one poll that I thought was telling was in the Newsweek. And it was it was the poll that was conducted by the economist and you go. And sadly, it says that most people feel less than one in 10 trust medical advice from Dr. Fauci of the vaccine deniers or vaccine rejecters and only one in five trust the CDC. This is really hard to come over that because they suggest that in the same poll that perhaps are in another poll that was put out by Forbes, I believe it was on who is refusing this. And they're they're making it in terms of Republicans. But in fact, it's not just Republicans. I know people on all sides of the spectrum who are believing things about this vaccine that are not true. And how you counter that when there's such little faith or trust in government is a real problem. And the Forbes article, which was on July 28th about who is most likely to refuse COVID-19 vaccine suggests that we need to go into communities of faith where the intersectionality of vaccine deniers and Fox Watchers or religious groups are queuing on supporters. And the whole nine yards, how we try and penetrate that. But if at the end of the day, when people start getting shut out of Costco or their workplace or other things, it's going to make a lot of people very mad. And that's one thing that we got to expect. But I think Macron's right that at some point you have to put your civic duty above your partisan or irrational or just playing just ignorant of feelings and thoughts. Right. Thank you very much, Winston. Cynthia, some time ago, remember the day when Donald Trump called a national emergency? And that was over the border wall. And he was able to secure all sorts of things he normally couldn't secure under the guise of a national emergency. I'm not sure if we're in a national emergency right now with COVID. I think I recall one a long time ago, but I don't know if it's still enforced. But if it's not enforced, what's to prevent Joe Biden from declaring a national emergency and relate it to the Delta variant and do some things that normally presidents don't get to do. And that is make hard and fast guidelines that people don't like. But for the good of the nation and the good of the health and welfare of the nation, these national emergencies are used from time to time in our history. What Macron did is, again, very difficult, particularly for the United States, where people are very conscientious of their individual rights and freedoms. And no one can make me get my vaccination. But how do you feel Joe Biden is doing? Do you think he should go that step of Macron and say, it's not just going to be federal buildings, but it's going to be all public entities that will require vaccination or proof of vaccination before you enter? What do you think? I think starting with federal agencies is the place to start. And I heard a message earlier while I was getting ready on the TV that he was saying that he is going to institute it, not tomorrow or the next day to make the announcement. He made it this morning. It's going to happen. And if you won't take the vaccine, you will have rigorous testing that you must submit to. And I think that's important because the statistics are pretty staggering. New cases are up 65% since last week. Deaths are 22% since last week. We only have a 49.3% fully vaccinated percentage here in this country. We've got six states in this country that are under 40% that are all in the 30s and their percentile of vaccination rates. Of course, they're all the typical states that you expect, the red states, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, Georgia, but then you got Idaho and Wyoming in there too. And then we've got the big high ones that are all in that northeast corner, like we were talking about where you were on vacation, Tim. They're all way in the high 60s or 70%. Now, Hawaii, hate to say it, guys. We're only at 53.3%. And I wonder, does that have something to do with our large military contingent that's here? We've got five active bases. So once we get that federal mandate in place, then of course our numbers will go way up. Let's go to what Winston said about some of the sourcing of where people get their information and therefore correlates to their resistance to vaccinations. And certainly, certain news sources, Fox, some social media websites. We know that they've been spreading disinformation. Allegedly, they're trying to clean it up. We have Newsmax. We have a whole pocket of sources where people are tuning in and it's confirming the big lie they believed in when Donald Trump said, this is a democratic hoax back in March of 2020. What should be the consequences for these sources that continually misguide, misinform, and quite frankly lie about the nature of the Delta variant, COVID, and the vaccination itself? What kind of consequences ought to be levied out for these institutions? Well, I think they could come up. If any, if any. I mean, I'm not saying they should, but if any. So I say yes, there should be. They should be severe. They should be extreme because they're killing people. And so the consequence should be big, too. It should start with massive fines. And if those don't work, then just shut them down if you can. Make them become an opinion station instead of a news station. And I think if we could just get that established better, maybe it would be easier to go in. I was reading and make a difference. I guess I was reading an article just this last week about looking into some of the people that are the least vaccinated and the percentages of people that are the least vaccinated. And they went in and they looked at all the churches. And most of the mainstream churches did not show a lower percentage of vaccinated people. Until you get to the born-again Christians, the holier-than-how conservative Christians, these people are really extreme. And they are the ones that watch One and Newsmax and Fox and all that. And those are the people, they say, that have the least percentage of vaccinations. And then the QAnon folks are the ones that have the least of all. And it just kind of goes down the list from there. Okay, so again, I think Winston accurately described the sources of the disinformation. And I guess I go to the question is, what can President Biden or President Biden's administration do about it? Jay, I take that to you. Can you declare a national emergency and say you're working against the interests of the United States? You're working against ultimately the economy and the welfare of this country. Under a national emergency scenario, can President Biden start imposing sanctions, penalties, ramifications for those sources that are working against the national best interests? I think we have an emergency. I'm not sure that entitles him to do anything more than if he didn't have an emergency. But I think he's been soft. He's been soft on the masks. He's doing a tip-toe. And he's saying, I don't want to influence my agencies. Well, come on. Look to him for leadership. Influence the agencies. It's okay. Tell the agencies we want a mask proclamation. We want the CDC or whatever it is, I guess the CDC, to at least suggest that masks be everywhere now. I don't know why we don't do that. And the vaccine thing, like Macron, absolutely he should do that. And he should do it at every level of the federal government, everywhere that he can reach as the leader of the federal government. And it's really shameful that the military doesn't have a regulation. They control the lives of their troops. They can implement a regulation along those lines instantaneously. And it would be completely and irrefutably legal for national defense. I cannot imagine why he's being soft. He's got to be harder like Macron. He should follow Macron. But there's one other thing, and I sent you guys a Wikipedia article on section 230 of the federal communications statute that was adopted. And 230 gives immunity to the networks, to the media, including social media for lies that they promulgate with very few exceptions. And that is a critical hole in the boat here. There have been moves to try to change that in the courts, not completely successful, and in the Congress. If that were changed, repealed, amended, what have you. So to make the media legally responsible to citizens who are affected by lies. It's not only COVID, it's all kinds of other lies. But COVID is a really good example. So what happened to Uncle John? He died of COVID. Didn't he get a vaccine? No, he was watching Newsmax and they told him not to. And he relied on Newsmax, didn't take the vaccine. He was immune vulnerable and he died. Well, doesn't that sound like a good cause of action? You know, Jay, you hit the nail on the head. Under that provision, section 230, Uncle John cannot sue because it wasn't Facebook or Twitter or any media that said that. They were really republishing what somebody else put on their platform. If you change section 230, that changes. And all of a sudden, Uncle John can take a whack legally at the people who propagated the lie. This is very important for us. And we have let social media, and for that matter, media like Fox News and Newsmax run away with us. You've been asking, Kim, why are they backing up? Why are the opinion casters on Fox News softening their position on taking, not taking the vaccine? I think the reason is they're afraid that there's going to be some lawsuits against them where people died. This sounds to me just as an intuitive matter. Like it should happen. I think it probably needs some legal impetus from the president. But one way or the other, we have got to get that crack off these social media and network platforms. Well, two points, Jay, is remember the voting machines. I forget the name of the company, but they are suing Fox and some of the pundits for billions of dollars because of the misinformation about the voting machines and how they are rigged. And that is damaged to defamation their company. So those lawsuits, as you suggest, are actually taking place right now. The second point is, remember, Donald Trump tried to abolish rule 230, but he didn't do it because he was concerned about the American public and the COVID virus. He was upset because they blocked him from being on their airwaves and from the social media. So that's why he wanted 230 abolished so that he could sue him and force himself back on the airwaves. Yeah, I would distinguish the voting machine situation. Yes, in that case, the networks had no evidence whatsoever to back up the defamation. They are sitting pretty for a multi-billion-dollar judgment on that and good for the guys who were suing them. The case of Uncle John and how he died from COVID is a little different because in that case, we're talking about these platforms propagating lies from someone else. And that's the whole impetus on fixing 230. So I think one way... See, the government under the First Amendment cannot come in and start vetting the information that's going to the public. That would be a clear First Amendment problem. So the real solution is to find a way to have the individuals who are being harmed, namely you and me and anyone who has been either defamed or hurt or killed by COVID to do a class action or some kind of legal proceeding in the courts. That would change everything. And regrettably, Congress right now is locked up. And maybe that'll change, but not right away, I'm afraid. The other thing is Congress could help solve this. And because it's locked up, that's a problem. The various governors that have said, well, we're going to change our position on the vaccine. Good for them. But my question, and I would leave you with this, is my last comment. My question is while I agree that there's a certain change happening, a certain change in the air, there is also a certain resistance happening, and that's still happening. And so you have two contending lines on the chart. You have people who are becoming more enlightened, including some public officials, and also people who are hunkering down, as usual, doubling down the Trump model. Make no mistake, he's behind this. So the question is, where do those lines meet? Can we reverse public opinion on these issues quickly enough to subdue the emergency? And the jury's out on that. Yes, both of those lines are in play, but what's the timing? Yeah, the timing is everything. The, as you say, the TikTok of the Metrodome continues. Hey, Winston, last comments were out of time, but... So you know some of the research you sent shows the trend line of those red states. They're starting to get vaccinated now. The numbers are starting to slowly shift, and the percentages are getting better. Should Joe Biden look at those numbers and say, okay, we'll give it us a little more time before I really start cracking down hard? Or regardless of the trend line of vaccinations improving, we need to act now and act fast. What direction do you think President Biden should take? He's a pretty moderate, centrist person, so he realizes that half the country still isn't there, but they're getting on board pretty quickly. I think even though people don't believe the CDC, they don't believe Anthony Fauci, they might believe their minister. They might believe their governor. They might believe their mayor. And so the messaging needs to really bleed down to people that they trust and have some faith in, and their family members, and having a generous conversation with them. It doesn't help when you have the Attorney General of Missouri saying he's filing suit to stop a mask mandate in St. Louis County. This is not helpful, but hopefully when you've got one in five people who are resisting this vaccine, believing that chips are implanted in it, you're fighting an uphill battle, but I remain confident that the message is getting through, and this dealt this freaking people out. And if it's not, it should be because there's a thousand times of particles. They say that before when you were exposed to 15 minutes with someone without a mask, the equivalent now is one second, one literal second. Was that an analogy? Was that a metaphor? No, no, that's literal. There's a thousand times more viral particles that they're getting. But the other thing is that 90, what is 97, 99% of the people that are getting sick and dying are unvaccinated. The problem is, is when this like this Delta Plus, what's next for the people, as these things keep brewing, what about Delta Plus Plus or Epsilon or Zeta? And this is the concern is that we need to do it, not just here, but all around the world, so that when the next one comes up, when Lambda comes up or when the next one comes up, we're better prepared to at least have the huge majority of our population vaccinated. So slowly, surely, through laws, through mores, through leadership, small, large, personal, state, city, local, it all needs to be part of the story. We need to welcome people on board to change their positions to a better position now that they have more information. So anyone that says, I was afraid, yeah, who wants to get a shot of anything? Nobody. But when you realize people aren't dropping dead from this vaccination, they're staying alive because of this vaccination. And I think as they're surrounded by it, and they're all sick of COVID at this point, we just got to step up and do our civic and personal duty. And if nothing else, go for the enlightened self-interest here. Get your shots. Well, let's just say slowly, Winston, but it should not be slowly. It's happening rapidly. It's happening more and more rapidly. And the way is that Biden must take affirmative action, just like Macron. And that way we'll get it done. And I think at this point, he's not going to have as much resistance as he would have had a month ago. This goes again to our social compact. The points we raised at the beginning of this show is what happened to the social compact that we had with our fellow Americans? I'll repeat Macron's comment again. His quote is, I know that you're ready for this commitment. This is, in a sense, part of your sense of duty. The operative word is duty. We have no duty left for our fellow Americans. And maybe sometimes people need to be forced to be reminded of their duty. I don't know. But let me go to Cynthia for closing comments. Cynthia, your last thoughts? Public safety laws. We've got lots of them. Why can't this be one of our public safety laws? I mean, you've got to put on a seatbelt to get in a car. You cannot drive drunk. All of these things that are laws to keep us safe that none of us like, but we do. Well, maybe we like that don't drive drunk one. But it seems to me that it's the same sort of thing. And what really gets me when I hear these anti-vaxxers and these anti-masksers from these main big red states, these Republicans, the very same people that want to govern a woman's body in regards to reproduction. But boy, they don't want to put a little mask over their face. But they don't want the government to tell you you got to wear a mask. But they want the government to tell you that you can or cannot have a baby or what. If you've been raped, you still have to have that. These same people that are voting things. That points out the absurdity of their argument. At least it does to me. Well, if it's not absurd, it's hypocritical. So you get the last word on that point. I want to thank you very much, Cynthia, for making those points. And I'd like to thank everyone, Jay Fidel, Winston Welch, and you, Cynthia, Lee Sinclair, for joining us this week on What Now, America? Please tune in next week at 11 o'clock on Wednesday. And I'm Tim Appichelle, your host, and we'll see you then. Aloha.