 This is Marco Mina and me except Marco is somewhere in the bowels of the People's Republic of China so today It's me to marina and me alone at last here on in our energy show the first energy show of our five energy shows every week Welcome to our energy show me to marina. I Did happy new year to you at Shinyin Kwai love, you know Yeah, it's been a while since we saw Well, I'm not done the radio. I gotta qualify that off on the radio as we do talk in other circumstances So I guess the the big thing Mina is you know How how central how relevant how important was that briefing on Thursday? This was the 13th annual You know energy briefing by the energy policy forum of which you are an emeritus member To the legislature which you know you We maybe we have some way of gauging their level of interest here in the 2017 Session, but there's a lot of issues out there And I think it was very interesting that the forum looked back first to see where where all of these initiatives had gone Because a lot of them, you know, you see a big splash when they come out When somebody is advocating for them or the legislators passing bill And then you know, you don't hear much and some of them actually disappear without a sound they go sliding under the waves And then that's that's an intentional metaphor So what what happened on Thursday? No, you know that that The teacher says briefings are really important and I think they're really critical for especially new members but You know having this look back. I think it's very important considering the times that we're in right now and it's more than The kinds of programs that are being proposed through this legislation we need we need big System investments To help facilitate distributive energy resources and unless we can Focus on on on the big infrastructure needs for grid modernization We're not going to get very far in our endeavor and what I fear is You know the cost and and and social equity kinds of issues that Are are challenging at this time Yeah, you are your your judgments is so refined. I mean You say that Mirita was a chair of the Public Utilities Commission for several years And she writes a blog called energy dynamics right now And she's very well when she was in the legislature for something close to 300 years as the chair of the Sorry She knows all the issues and she can appreciate them with a level of experience and Let me go back to say that when this energy policy forum briefing was first Created I think it drove off something you said and that is We must be institutional memory. We must remember what happens Otherwise we will lurch from one side of the boat to the other and not have the benefit of our own experience Good bad or otherwise and I think this was faithful to your comments that that actually created the program and I think it's something we always have to do Yeah, yeah, and like I said, um, you know looking back at why You know certain legislative issues haven't moved forward as quickly as they did is You know, these are really Complicated issues dealing with financing Administration of programs and Setting them up is taking quite a while to do. Yeah, I had the feeling that you know people people saying it gets a little old sometimes that you know Hawaii is way ahead of the curve and Hawaii is the great laboratory for the world to see and You know, we've made remarkable strides and you know, I'm impatient about this. I want us to make more remarkable strides I want us to you know see our goal right up there And I want to work every day to get there and I'm I'm not convinced that we're doing all that we could do I think we get and this is a term that I use all the time I think we get distracted for example the next era, you know experience was a distraction that cost us 19 months And I you know, I think it's still costing us momentum And so we really have to move forward with a lacquerty And that means we have to get our act together and we can't be hesitant. We have to take some risks And we have to always be you know, we always have to be looking at the new technology new concepts Right now I would say that we're not as much ahead if we are Uh, of you know other places that are putting they're investing in You know in clean energy And I think your point is very well taken about you have to do it at the the utility level Well, I I think you know, I'm going to have to disagree with you about the next era Merger being a distraction. I I think it was a very important um Issues to be considered And I I believe that there were issues that came up that were distracting but You know in in that case you were talking about You know, basically a 14 300. I mean fortune 300 companies coming in to acquire um The hawaii electric company that may have had not only the resources But the operational capability the planning capability to help us move forward. So I you know, I kind of disagree with um You're kind of My characterization but we are you and I are together On the basic principle that next era would have been a good thing for hawaii And I am I'm sad that that was rejected Um, but let's look at what it taught us I mean in terms of the community, um, you know, the electorate the regulators as it is right now Is that you know, hawaii has sort of in dealing with next era that way, which was not pleasant not kind either um We we kind of made a decision and maybe it was for the right reason Maybe it wasn't but the decision was that we're going to try to go indigenous We're gonna we're not going to want uh another buyer to come down here and buy our utility companies We want to do it in-house. We want to do it with our own existing structures We want to control it And so forth. I think that's the implicit decision that was made and the question goes back to what you said a minute ago And that is can we achieve the investment? Um, you know by doing it that way and then and the jury's out on that because we haven't had remarkable investment Uh, and I think to the extent we had investment by some of the solar companies over the past few years I think that's declining I think the gems program is an abject failure. We can talk about that Um, and um, and you know, the the credits are not helping right now And maybe there's they've spent themselves So the question is where does the money come from going forward if we're going to do this Indigenously if we're going to do this and meet our goals. We have to raise capital for large installations of new technology Where's it going to come from? You know Yeah, exactly, you know the um You know, we've already tapped into the rate pair where you know, I don't see any future Relief for the rate pair You know the taxpayer is burden. So yeah, you have to rely on outside Investments coming into the state and and not only You know, you have to rely on that But you know, where are you going to put the investment? Are you going to put it on the customer side of the meter or are you going to put it into the shared? resource of a modern grid Where do you think we should put it as a matter of policy? I'm sorry. What was that? Where do you think we should put that investment? Where is it most needed? Where will it give us the best leverage on the grid side or on the customer side? It for me it has to be on the grid side And you know the thing is you cannot facilitate the customer investment Unless your grid is able to handle it. So, you know modernization of our grid is extremely important you know and um And one of the things one of the reasons why um, kiuC I believe is um Proceeding faster than the hawaii electric companies is Can is much more disability on its grid than the eco companies And you know, it's advanced nearing. They have smart meters Yeah, you know, so so that gives them better visibility on the grid Where the system operators become more comfortable Because they have this disability and in in taking in You know Taking this system farther beyond the limits they've been before Well, suppose I gave you a billion dollars And I said, Mina. Can you please invest this? Say in grid equipment or upgrading the grid and smart meters and time of use technology and You know all that black box stuff that adjusts, um, you know demand with with Well demand with uh with a generation and um What how would you spend your billion dollars to get us there? I think the first thing that has to happen is you know Pull out of and against the earrings system for for the eco companies You know, I think that's where that's where we're really behind You know and and and with with that kind of investment Hopefully you gain more system efficiencies um which Again, you hope can help reduce cost In operating the system Well, on that point, uh, marco from china sent us an article It appeared, I guess in the main the newspaper um Oh, it's the new york times and it was entitled just as january 14th, right over the weekend Um a big test for big batteries And it's about a project in southern california She's being operated by aes. I think that's very interesting as a contractor aes is like all over the world But they do fossil fuel as well as clean energy And in fact, they have a contract with wine electric to to deliver a certain amount of coal Right here in coppola But this time aes is building a huge huge, um Battery storage system in southern california because of difficulties with um, I think natural gas And this this is going to be very competitive And the only question is whether they can build it big enough and strong enough and resilient enough So it doesn't blow up or burn or fail Um because you can't afford to have that. Did you see the article? What do you think? Um, yeah, I you know, um, I I read it really quickly. Um, where marco sent it So, you know, a lot of people are putting their hopes in energy storage And you know energy storage can come in many different forms, but Um, most people think it can tend to think of energy storage in the form of batteries And so, um you know The experience with um chemical batteries is not as extensive as You know energy being stored in the form of liquid fuels or pump pump storage um water storage helping Smooth out. Yeah, there are there are various ways you can store. I mean, I may be the lesson of all of this Is that we have to have a diverse array of storage mechanisms and use them all And you know these days with the technology and the information technology particularly We can adjust and you know Coordinate all these diverse methods of storage without a whole lot of difficulty using computer technology So I guess I would ask you is what what do you like? Um aside from or in conjunction with or better than batteries So no, I I think you know, there's a there's a lot of opportunities and a lot of hope put into batteries and you know, definitely when you see um, you know CIUC has two um To both solar contracts one with um solar city tesla and the second new one, which was just announced last week with with a yes, and You know, I think it is exciting. I think the um the levelized price for the solar city one is around 13 and a half cents or something and the one with a yes is around 11 cents And that's really that's really exciting that potential is really exciting but I think you know In this development, you really have to look at who takes the risk here You know, so is the cooperative taking the risk? um And the cooperative members taking the risk which I doubt I believe all the risk is being placed on the developer to deliver that power Which I you know being a cooperative member. I look at that as a really good thing and um but But I I think the the caution the caution here of CIUC not making the investment on their own is You hear me? Okay. Jay. Yeah, sure. I can We only have a minute. We're gonna go to a break in a minute. But why don't you finish your thought? Okay, so so anyway, the thing is, you know, it comes down to who takes the risk in this developing technology and and so you know battery Given how the discharge and everything, you know It is a not very much experience out there. Yeah, and we're getting experience Hopefully we can attract new models and one of the models that was discussed Last thursday was the model and since is the model of lumping, you know, lumping up the solar And the batteries together as one unit financing them as one unit having them operate as one unit That's not on the utility side, of course Um, but that very model of lumping it up that way may be a model that can be used on both sides Let's let's take a short break. Meena. Meena marita energy dynamics former chair of the puc talking to us about energy here in Hawaii Aloha Howard wig. I am the proud host of cold green think tech away I appear every other monday at three in the afternoon. Do not tune in in the morning My topic is energy efficiency. It sounds dry as heck, but it's not we're paying five billion dollars a year For imported oil My job is to shave that shave that shave that down in homes and buildings While delivering better comfort better light better air conditioning Better everything so if you're interested in your future, you'd better tune in to me Three o'clock every other monday cold green aloha and thank you very much Okay, we're back. We're live and I want to recap on the Technologies that we talked about last thursday at the energy policy forum As technologies that may have not gone anywhere One of them we mentioned already in the first part of the show is the as the gems program the securitization of green energy Monetization whatever it is And where you you have a hundred and fifty million dollar Fund of money that was essentially borrowed and then you're supposed to uh, you know Lend that out to people who want to do clean energy installations, but who can't qualify for other loans And so far the amount of money that's been lent out has been a very tiny fraction And one percent or something of the uh, 150 million dollars and after two years It doesn't look very promising jeff mckelina of blue planet foundation was one of the original Proponents of that bill and part of the committee that was supposed to flesh it out I was talking about trying to link it up with the on-bill financing Program, which is another program that has gone south And and I wonder what your thoughts are about whether this is ever going to help on the customer side Um, or whether we should be looking in other directions for customer financing Well Jay, I I'm going to take issue with you know the program failed. I I think you know, um The situation in the landscape in hawaii is changing extremely quickly And so the initial programs that were developed may not have been timely enough and missed that opportunity and and so You know the the program developers just weren't prepared to switch gears Um in moving forward And then I think the other major issue here is continuity You had a change in administration Just when the program was being launched and and the bond was issued And so what it appears what appears to happen is you had an administration where this Um financing kinds of mechanisms were not a priority And and so again, you know the program kind of fell to the wayside as we went through an administration change And you think it can be resuscitated at this point? Well, I I think it's kind of sad that it's taken so long for These kinds of programs, especially after the bond has been issued to be resuscitated You know that that's that's a huge concern Yeah, but You know, I think overall part of the forum Seeing was you know continuity and how important continuity is And and it it's extremely important where we need to make these big investments um in our energy infrastructure and Who can have? Confidence in making these investments when there's a lot of uncertainty right now Yeah, I think it creates a lot of that mean that was really a fundamental point. I took away from the program Uh that you cannot have uncertainty when you're going for goals that you have to either fish or cut bait Uh if the program looks like it's relevant and working it has prospect and promise then you do it You know, uh with with all guns ablaze and you go out there and do it Don't don't take no for an answer. Just do it on the other hand if it it looks like it's failing then cut it Don't let it drift. You know some of the programs we discussed Last thursday have been drifting for years. I mean for example. Yeah, uh, you know, we have not put the pennies on the eyes um of of of wind and And cable coming off lanai Uh, I think everybody will agree everybody who's familiar will agree that it must be dead because nothing is happening all this time But uh, wouldn't it be a good idea to just cut it off or resurrect it? Whatever is appropriate? Um, what what do you what do you think is happening with wind off lanai? It seems to me still like a good idea. I like wind. I like the the zen of wind if you will Um, and I noticed that wind is everywhere in the world and hawai's percentage of wind is actually Uh, you know declining Well, I you know the thing I think you have to put all of these questions into context and and The the the biggest issue is the best renewable resources are on the neighbor iran But the population base is on oahu So when you look at it from that perspective, um You know having an inter-island table may make sense Um, you know, there are a lot of people out there who think that oahu can reach, um The 100 percent go on its own And of course that's possible, but it's going to be costly You know and and I think the same for the for the neighbor iran. Yeah We can we can reach 100 percent and we can probably do that tomorrow about how much is it going to cost Well, we have to make a plan where it'll cost and uh, you know, it won't cost too much To break our backs on the other hand, it is very high priority for my money. For example, I'd I'd rather spend it on energy Uh and moving forward, you know with with alacrity on energy rather than on rail Um, you know 10 billion or 12 billion or whatever it's going to come out to on rail would be Much better spent in my opinion than on energy than Much better spent on energy than rail So I think it's a matter of choices and there has to be somebody in government Willing to make those hard choices and priorities And I don't have the feeling that that's happening. I think we lurched from one issue to another But the thing is yes, we have to make a lot of hard choices up there But we also want to make good economic Choices based on fact and you know good sound reasoning You know, and and I think you know, um Sometimes there's so much advocacy going on in trying to push an ideology That we kind of lose site on Um practical issues like cost You know and I I'm one that we can reach our goals, but we have to be smart about it. Yeah But you know, I'm reminded of some of the things that were said in that new york times article And you know, I think but part of it is that Um, that california knows it's taking some risks But california has decided as a matter of priority as a matter of You know considering all the factors together and making a decision That it has to take those risks Because the alternative is bleak And I think we we have to see that too. There's a certain amount of risk And we may not agree on this, but there's a certain amount of risk that we have to take even big risk If we're going to get there. It's a big project. Yeah, there are big risks, but there are also huge You know risks if we don't do it And so I would put the money into the undersea cable. I would build the windmills on lanai Um, and I would I would favor wind at least as one Diverse source of renewable energy, but that am I right? Do you agree with me that wind seems to be declining in hawaii? well, um After I heard this news article this morning about the impact on birds and bats from wind Yeah, that it looks like another black guy for wind But when I was listening to that article on public radio this morning or that news item on public radio this morning It was like, wow, we don't have any context for this. Yeah, you know It it's it's like, okay, we we're losing birds, but You know one One dog or one cat can go into a bird colony and wipe out the entire bird To shea Which has happened and you know, you won't hear about it, but you know, you you hear about this take on on wind projects being a little larger than the anticipated You know That that might be That might be it for for Yeah, your wind project I think what you're saying it's a matter of taking all things in perspective And uh, you know the yes, there might be some you know birds killed or bats But uh the large but you know, we try to minimize that of course in fact, uh You know First wind had some biologists up on the top of the hill. They're overlooking Uh, uh, I guess I'm looking behind us where they have that facility And they and they make every effort to protect the animals And we should do that on the other hand We shouldn't stop the program because the bird gets killed Uh, and we you know, I don't know why the people will come up with you know Arguments that are completely out of context and out of perspective in order to stop wind I don't know why that is we need it all we need every Source we can get and we have to put it together with the most modern technology And I think we've lost some of these initiatives over the years. We've lost any forward motion in geothermal um LNG, uh, I'm not sure where lng is going, but uh, it wasn't in the psip At least not for now and the governor opposes it and um, I'm not sure where that's going But there are a lot of initiatives we've talked about spend a lot of time, you know discussing and Trying to move forward that that haven't moved forward And so I think I think it's worthwhile For us to have this continuity as you originally suggested and was incorporated in the program Briefing the legislature last week and we did make a movie of it, you know, I mean, we have a we have a movie of 30 minutes Which we will play starting this weekend on oc 16. It'll play seven times And people can see the schedule in in our website think take away dot com Yeah, and olala was going to broadcast the whole thing. It's an entirety To hear what everybody said about everything and I think was a valuable conversation And I want to know I want you to know that I appreciate your thoughts because they they essentially created the concept of the program Yeah, and and you know, um, you know, we were fortunate enough to have um, gevin bay from utility Dives to come in and be the keynote at the energy policy forum legislative briefing, but you know later in talking with him he made this that point about You know, you're really we're really not acting on good information in facts, you know, we're moving forward on on Facts presented by that can only back certain ideology And I you know in order to succeed we got we have to move away from that and we have to really understand that The electric grid is um a really important Public infrastructure That helps to bring equity Um, absolutely. It's more than just electrical generation. It's our whole civilization And we have to be mindful and we we did a talk show. We're Sharon mori walkie and I did a talk show with Gavin Gavin Bade on saturday and we'll be playing that through this week on think tech. Well, thank you. Me know, we're out of time I really enjoyed this quiet time with you this You know just the two of us and I hope we can do it again soon marco or not. Thank you so much