 And then finally you get it, that you say about my creator, I come to you with this knowledge in my life. Most of it is how not to be and what not to do. But I have all this knowledge as you got it. You're coming to me with the knowledge of your life. And that's beautiful and that's very valuable. And then at that moment you're a part of everything. Very powerful. Wow. And you come to them with the knowledge of your life. Very powerful. And then it's in the morning the elder opens the door and says you have to come back but you don't want to come back. Why should I come back? I mean why should I be a stupid human being? I don't want to come back. I don't want to confine my spirit in that body. Because I'm one with everything. Why would I limit myself to be a human being? Someone's opinion may contradict yours. Where's my friend Alan? It's all about your perspective. Who are we and what is the nature of this reality? Hey everyone, welcome to Simulation. I'm your host Alan Sakyan. We're onsite at the American Anthropological Association's annual meeting for our second partnership with them. We are now sitting down with Douglas Cardinal. Hi Douglas. Thanks for coming on the program. It's nice to be here. Wonderful to be in Vancouver. Yeah, you had such a profound keynote last night where we were immersed in your world-renowned architectural experience, design, blending together spirituality and nature into your projects that you've worked on. And I've been talking to you quite a bit since last night and I'm really grateful that you came on the program. I want to talk to you about this most first-principled question. Are we really all one? Yes. My experience, which the elders put me through, in order to start reconnecting myself to my mind, body and spirit, my experience is working with them that we're all one. We're all interconnected to all of life and all of life around us and throughout the universe. We're connected to the planet, the very core of this planet. We're connected to each other, connected to every animal, bird, fish, plant and everything else. Our elders don't teach us that because then it comes to our heads. The elders have to actually have us feel that. So in their ceremonies, in the vision quest, you actually go through a life and death experience. You see, the only way you're going to learn that you're part of all of creation is that you have to go to the other side and back. And in that journey, you will see how connected you are to all life. And what is this other side that you speak of in this vision quest? The other side is after death. It's post-death, okay. So near-death experiences, what are the vision quests that the elders send you on? To feel the oneness. Feel the oneness? Well, you're asked to go, I mean, you, because you're searching for this answer. You're feeling entirely disconnected with me. The church and state through my mind disconnected me from my body and my spirit and from everything around me. It's such a way that I would totally lose feelings in my hands and feet and my mind would be disconnected from my body and I would then gradually lose feelings in my body until I would go unconscious. And that created a tremendous stress on my body, my internal organs, and particularly my kidneys because they would stop functioning. And then I was in real trouble. So the elders, they came and took me out of the hospital and said, we need you. We don't have time for this. You better come and be with us and we'll make you whole again. So, and of course, I had a thirst for living and so I said, if you can help me with this because nothing seems to help me. I mean, I'm totally, and the doctors, when I went to University of Texas, felt that I had the same illness that astronauts get when they get out in space, they get totally disconnected because they're out in space and there's no connection to the planet. And they go through this process of where they feel this tremendous anxiety where their mind and body seem disconnected and you go through tremendous erratical and you lose feeling of your whole body and you go unconscious. And so the challenge is how to get you back on your feet again. And with me, when I started getting these things, the only thing I could do would be run out into the forest and tear all civilization away from me and sit under a tree so that I could start connecting to Earth. But the more I got into our urban environment and working in our urban environment and that whole way of life, which is sort of disconnecting oneself totally from nature and from each other, I found that I would continually get these stress attacks to a point where my kidneys stopped functioning and then I was in real trouble. And so the elders took me out of the hospital and said, we need you, we don't have time for this. And so you're going to come out with us. And their ceremonies were against the law at that time. So they left their communities and went to the mountains and created a camp. The Chief Robert Smallboy created a camp where all the elders could come and practice their traditions and their ceremonies. So they took me up to the mountains and then they brought me back. But I had to learn how to connect myself to myself because I was totally disconnected. This seems like absolutely the most first principled thing about life is that we come from the one and that we, no matter what path you take, back up this mountain to re-commun with the one to drop or this wave must rejoin the ocean and must have the experience of rejoining the ocean to truly understand the nature of this reality at its most first principled level. And then the fact that there's so many people, so many humans that have not done that process of re-communing with this infinite one, that then that is the most upstream root issue that all of our world faces. We face the feelings of separation of disconnectedness. Yes. And I sensed that more after that experience that I've had by connecting myself with the one. And because I particularly was against every religion and every spiritual thing after I came out of the residential school, I was totally turned against anything that had to do with religion or spirituality and that was being really disconnected. But so the process that the elders had and it was passed down for thousands of years, it was really a process of where at first we had to go through a sweat lodge. It's a purification rite. And in that sweat lodge, you bring in the rocks, red-hot rocks, and you bring in the water and you go back to the origins of the planet where it's the water on the rocks that brought life. And then you relive that experience where you go in there and it is unbelievably scalding hot. And that's because you have to surrender, you have to get off your arrogance. And the only way you can, the elder will keep pouring the water in there until you reach out and pray to something that's beyond yourself. You reach out to the Creator of us all. And there are special songs that are sung that help you go on that spiritual journey of reaching out beyond yourself and asking the Creator to come and help you through the experience because your mind will stop you, will tell you, are you crazy? Are you nuts? What are you doing in this place? You're going to get hurt and you're going to burn and you might even die in here. And so it scares the shit out of you, so you can't listen to your mind. You've got to listen to the songs. And if your mind is giving you a rough time, the elder may distract your mind like this with a rattle, to distract your mind because your mind will be on a one-way track. It is concerned about your preservation. And so it's scaring the shit out of you to stop this. They use a rattle to interfere with the monkey mind racing away. Yeah, that's how the rattle is used. That's so interesting. And it brings you back to the oneness. Yeah, because it distracts the mind. And all of a sudden, your mind is just another noise that you're dealing with. The rattles are more important in there because you might be distracted enough where you'll bang your head with a rattle so that you don't have your mind. See, it's your mind that is the problem child here. It's a mind that disconnected you. It's your own ego. Yes, yes. And feeling that of your own self-importance, your own ego, and I've got to be in charge. And in there, it's pitch black and there's no way out. The roots go right down. The willows go right down. And you can't get out. And so you make a commitment to go in. And the door is not open when you yell. Open the door. It's too hot. Sorry you made that commitment to be in here. The door isn't open until the elder says the door is open. Wow. Yeah. And so you're trapped in there. What are you going to do? I mean, what if you're in a car accident? You're trapped in a burning car. What are you going to do? Geez. You have to surrender. Geez. So you will surrender. Would you say sweat lodges are that close to near-death experiences? Well, the elder that decided that he was going to make me whole, yes. Oh my God. It's a purification, right? Wow. And because you're out of balance. And he can see the aura of your life force. And there are holes in your aura or trauma that you've caused yourself that imbalances your body. So those are your things that you're doing to your body. I would say also a healing lodge. Yes. Because it believes that the body is designed to totally defend itself. It has all sorts of ways of healing itself. Because it keeps regenerating itself. Like the eye, I can't remember how many months it takes for the eye to totally replace every cell, every molecule in your eye is being replaced. So your body is in a continual state of dying and rebirth. Every cell in your body. And after, I can't remember how many years it is. I think maybe seven years. Every cell in your body is replaced. Every molecule in your body is replaced. So you're continually changing and living and dying all the time, every cell. And if you cause some traumas in your experience, it can affect the cells in your body to such a point where when it regenerates, it has flaws in it. And that's what creates a lot of illnesses. Because most of our illnesses as far as our elders are concerned are psychosomatic. They're created by our way of thinking. And our whole immune system can heal if we balance ourselves. So in the lodge, you see the person's aura. There are dark spots where the mind is interfered with the energy field. The wholeness. And in the aura, you can see those dark spots of where this psychosomatic... Where the mind is interfering. Yeah, the mind is interfering. So the elder will take the eagle's wing and go right to that spot. It's just like a spear going through the eagle. The eagle wing to the dark spot in the aura. And that is immediate. It's like the mind won't let go of that rage that whatever incident has caused you, whether it's pain, somebody's hurt you. So you have deep rage. And that deep rage is separating you from that spirit. So you go through this very difficult sweat lodge. But it's not just a healing lodge, it's to prepare you for your fast. For the fast. How long is the fast? The fast is five days without water or food. Yes, dry fast. Five days and four nights without water or food. Wow. So this is the experience that the elders take you on so that you can really feel as close to this communion with the one. It's a near-death experience for you. It's the fast. Yeah, interesting. What age do they take you? Well, it's when anybody feels that they want, they have the courage to go on because it's one hell of a commitment. Does it happen as young as like 10 years old or as late as like 70 years old? No, it's probably when you start dealing with, as a young adult, dealing with life in general. 15-ish, 20-ish, 25? Well, most of the guys in there were, of course, our teachings were separated from us. But I see young men doing it, you know, maybe 20. And do women go through a ritual like this as well? Yes. Yeah, a ceremony, okay. The women can deal with it better because they know how to deal with pain because they give childbirth. They're more connected because they're connected. They're reminded every month in the lunar cycle that they're connected to the moon and to the earth. And us guys have nothing to remind us. Like that, yeah. So that's why we need the sweat lodge. Frankly, I do a sweat lodge every week and have done it for 50 years. Every week for 50 years now. Yeah. Wow. And that's so interesting that you bring up how women have a part of their reproductive process that actually reminds them about their interconnectedness to the one. And how it's tied to the moon and how us men need a sweat lodge to remind us about the one. We need to dry fast. We need these other processes that tie us to the one. This, I want to ask this question as well that for from the elders to the rest of the world, it seems to be the most common theme around indigenous talking to this younger brother that is in these metropolises that is going and tinkering and creating and exploring, but also in many ways causing destructive harm that to remember the processes of the deep interconnection. Deep interconnection to nature and to each other and to the one. That seems to be the most common message from elders and that they're, what are the best things for the younger brother to do? You gave us this example of, you know, the sweat lodges, the dry fasts just going into the middle of the trees and just sitting and connecting. What are the best processes for the younger brother in the metropolises to do? Well, what I've seen is when you're so disconnected and it's a trouble with your mind, you self-medicate with drugs and alcohol. And I found and I've helped the elders put together initiatives like the Nietzsche Foundation that uses the traditional elders to help the young urbanites to get away from drugs and alcohol by following the traditional ways. Because once you follow them, you don't have time for drugs and alcohol. In fact, you realize that in harming yourself, you're going against all of creation and you have to learn how to honor yourself. Because particularly if you go on the long fast because that experience is indescribably, I could describe it because from my perspective to go on the long fast and there are different ways. My elder and some of the elders have, you go on the fast, the sequence is different. A lot of the elders have a feast and then a, no, a sweat lodge and then a feast and go for five days without water or food. My elder had these ceremonies and had us go on a feast and then the sweat lodge and then go and fast for five days. And after his sweat lodge experience, the sweat lodge experience is usually four rounds and the doors open each round. And you just feel like you're going to pass out or pass away and then he opens the door. Yeah. Thank you. And so there are four rounds like that. So you're getting to that feeling of passing out the near death and then the door opens and then the relief comes and then again the same process. Just like the fast is the five days you feel towards the end like, oh, I need the water. I need the food. But you're overcoming the monkey mind that's constantly trying to rush you to those specific things. Yeah, except my elder, the way he would do the fast would be a little different. You'd have your feast and then you'd go into the sweat lodge and then you had to do all four rounds and he would not open the door. Yeah. No door. No door opening. It was like, how can I not surrender more than I have? You'd be just like a lump when you go through and you'd be totally dehydrated. Ooh, yeah. You feel like you could spit dust because your body is just total. It just seems there's no water in your body anymore. You're totally sweated it all out and you really want a drink of water. And then you'd say then you'd go out and fast. Yeah. Without water. Without water. Five days. Douglas, what do you think is... But you'd go through on that fast, he would guide you through. Now you would be sitting out in a nature, a spot that he's chosen that's a PowerPoint that he chose for you for that fast. And it would be made out of willows and you had to... The only way you could survive would be at par with a blade of grass. Like you had to not be any more important than that blade of grass. Wow. They would pick a location for you and you would stay in that location? You'd stay in that lodge. And each willow you had to make the lodge before you go into the feast. But for five days though would you stay in the same location? Yeah. And you had to feel that you were the same importance as the blade of grass? Yeah. And the willows that you cut for the lodge, it's a dome. Just a dome that you can just sit up in when you're holding a sacred pipe and you sit up in there. And it's open to the west, the setting sun. Yeah. And you can... When you go in there, each willow has to be that you put together. You have to go to the willow tree, the spirit of that willow, and you have to say to the willow, I'm going to take your life. Your life is important. But I want you... I'm going to take your life because I want to learn about the spirit of us all. And I'll use your life in that way so that I will always respect the willows and the willow spirit. And I'll give you an offering before I take your life. Interesting. So there's a ceremonial offering that's given to the willow. Yeah. Then you take the spirit because you want to become one with it. Yes. And you say, I want to become at one with the spirit of all life, including your spirit. Yes. And I will honor you and use you in a good way. And so you take the act like this and you are very deliberate because you swiftly take the life of the willow. And so you make sure you're really accurate four times and then you go whack. You take that willow and you realize that you've taken a life of another creature. And that's what we do. All of the reason we survive is I take the life of other creatures. So all of life around us are our life givers. Yeah. So even our food, we've taken life from a plant or an animal for our food. Yes. Which all comes from the sun. Yeah. To fuel the energy of that plant that we then eat. Yeah. But that plant is a life giver and requires the same respect. They're part of us. Yeah. And we can't. Yes. So we have to make sure that we do things in a loving and caring way as our elders say. Yes. Because we have to care for that plant. They're sacrificing their life for us. Yes. Yes. So we have to honor that. And then when we make the lodge, when we put the lodge into the earth, we use red ochre on the bottom of the sharpened willow to remind us that we're perishing our mother of the earth. And our mother of the earth is also part of the spirit. It's a spirit itself. It is a life force itself. And our mother of the earth is alive. Yes. And is a powerful spirit itself. So we humble ourselves by saying to our mother, we are always causing you such pain. And we're causing you pain to build this lodge. And we have to remember that we have to honor and respect our mother. Yes. These rituals are so important. Well, they're important because we are always in control. And we're always disregarding our environment around us, the food we eat. We just take it for granted. Yeah. And there the elder says, you cannot take these things for granted. Yeah. If you won't be able to commune with the spirit if you take these things for granted. Every breath of air, every bite of food, every interaction with nature and all other humans, nothing is for granted, everything is sacred. And to see the divinity in that process and to have these rituals that help highlight the divinity in all of those processes. And you have to follow those ways. If you do not, you will say, you're not ready to do this fast. Yeah. You haven't prepared your mind for this. You still are an arrogant creature. Yeah. And... Wow. Wow. And so you have to really prepare yourself for a year to make sure you do this in the right way. If you're going to learn anything. And then... In which Indigenous do this, the sweat lodge, the dry fast, which Indigenous? All Anishinaabe peoples. All Anishinaabe. I'm talking about an Anishinaabe ritual. An Anishinaabe. The Haudenosaunee people have the same, very similar rituals, but they do things a little different. They turn their lodges to another direction. Interesting. And we always go into our lodge clockwise. Yeah. And the Haudenosaunee go anti-clockwise. Yeah. They just have different... Each elder has a different way of doing things that were passed down to him. Or he learns it by going through these ceremonies. And he gets the ceremonies from the Creator of us all. So... Yes. And he gets the pipe, the sacred pipe, or the ceremony of us all. Like we have to say, I wanted to fast for the sacred pipe. So I asked the elder if he would... Because I knew that that was... When I held onto the sacred pipe, I felt a connection in it. My verdict went away. And so I thought, okay, I'll fast for the sacred pipe. And then I would solve my problems. So there I was holding the sacred pipe in the lodge to go through this whole ceremony. This vision quest with the elder. Yes. This is comparing these styles of vision quests and experiences that immerse us into the wisdom of the interconnectedness of the one, versus the serious levels of disconnection that are existing in the metropolises. There needs to be a global transition in terms of an evolution of consciousness towards indigeneity in order for us to actually be able to figure out how to maximize prosperity going forward. And it seems as though this... Happening from both a... You give all these rituals... Well, these rituals to not only happen from a grassroots level of people, but also to go to the places like the biggest governments in the world, the biggest corporations in the world, and just grabbing the top executives and public officials, and just they have to do these rituals. That way they actually... They experience the ego death. They experience the interconnectedness with the one. All of their decisions downstream become oriented towards the unity, the oneness, and not towards their own self-dealing egotistical habits. That is why we used... We went through these ceremonies because we had to get off it in terms of our self-importance in order to be able to work with nature, be part of nature, and to support each other and govern each other properly with loving and caring. These rituals are very important for the foundation of our culture. See, because hunter-gatherers need to have a special relationship with the environment. Their lives depend on it. As soon as you become a member of the agrarian culture and start manipulating the earth like agrarian cultures, then you don't rely on nature for your livelihood and your life. Then you lose all of that. Many of the leaders we talked to talk about that moment of transition from immediate return hunter gathering to the agrarian society. Now, the Haudenosaunee are agrarian, and they have retained their rituals. Interesting. The Haudenosaunee are agrarian. Yeah, they grow corn, squash, beans. You can still be very connected and grow food. Yeah, the Haudenosaunee were that way, the Mohawks. But they were more warlike because they had defended crops. And even defending our territories, it was not right to kill another human being or warriors. You actually taught us about this last night when we were talking. You said that wolves, even if they come to dominate another wolf at the neck, they won't kill another of their own species. You said that another example of a similar trait is that when two tribes will then have a member of one of the tribes go and marry a member of the other tribe and procreate with them, marry, but just procreate with them, therefore then if there is conflict between those tribes, they would not then kill one of the descendants of their own lineage, those children. And so over time then it is as though then it does become that oneness more so. I love these things that you were passing along to us last night. Yeah, the communities encouraged their young women to marry their enemy because they were another human being so that they would be part of the family. Wow. This is why U.S.-Chinese relations right now are very important. U.S. people marry Chinese people, Chinese people marry U.S. people so that we can make sure that the geopolitical climate stays lovely and harmonious. That is why all the Anishinaabe people lived in harmony with each other although we had some rough skirmishes but it was not the creator's way to kill each other. That is a crime against the creator to do that. Douglas, I need to ask you this question. What is the point of creation making this? Why did creation make this? We were growing and evolving and in the long past what I have discovered, there is a point where you learn at first you are going through a lot of pain, you are thirsty and whatever. So the elders said you are going to have to be able to communicate with all life around you and you start realizing that you don't even belong in this damn earth the way your mind is operating. You are bitten by mosquitoes and you are bitten by ants and it is uncomfortable and you are sitting on the grass and it scratches you. What am I doing here? I don't even belong here. You start realizing that you have to in a sense start communicating with all of these creatures around you and start talking to the grass and start talking to the trees. You start communicating and then you are saying give me this part of the life force that you have and you give me some of your life force so that I can survive this experience and then you ask the grass, can you help me through this? Put your hand on the grass and the grass. All of a sudden you feel life coming into your hand from the grass. You can feel it coming into you. Thank you my grass where you walk over the tree and against the tree and say please give me some of your energy so that I can survive this day. Then you feel energy. You say to the clouds please give me the spirit of the water so that I can quench my thirst. Then you find that all of these spiritual energies start helping you and you feel that you are being fed by energy by all the creatures around you. They are all supporting you to such an extent that you feel that your total spirit that you can walk right through a tree that you are not physical anymore and you feel that you are just total spirit and that all the spirits around you are feeding you. So you surrender and you become humble and you ask for the life force from the other plants, animals around you. You know that at this moment they are more important than you because you are four days into the dry fast. But then what happens is the elder says, your mind is really against what you are doing and giving you a hard time and what are you doing talking to the plant or the grass? You are talking to the ants and the butterflies, squirrels, whatever. You are out of your mind and so the mind is giving you a rough time. But then after you gain all this energy and you feel, I am so powerful that I can fly. I don't even have to be in this body. I am total energy. I am this powerful energy. I don't need this fast. The elder says, you watch out. The mind is going to twist you around and try to trick you. It gets you off this fast and off your commitment. This time at the fourth day, don't listen to your mind. Your mind was giving you a rough time before and I was trying to sweet talk you out of this commitment. Because the mind is so powerful and so tricky. Your mind is not your friend. The ego is not the amigo. It's not your friend. It's going to keep you from the power of the spirit around you. So then you feel all powerful, all filled with spirit. And then it's the last night is the hardest because when you see the sun goes down, all of the life seems to go down with the sun. And it's like the trees that gave you energy, the energy goes back to the trees, goes back to the grass, goes back to everything. And then all of a sudden you feel that you can't even have the energy in your eyes. Your body has no more energy. And then you feel just your light around you. And then there's a big light that comes around you and totally surrounds you and pulls you out of your body and you're looking down at your body as a shell. And it's absolutely terrifying. You say, oh my God, I'm going to die. I'm going to leave my body. I don't want to. So then this being is overwhelming. It just takes you and you don't have control of it. But you think this is an illusion. My mind is doing crazy things on me. And then you say, I don't believe in what's happening. And then it takes you out of the body again. And then finally you realize that this spirit is taking your life force out of your body. And this is a powerful force that you can't control. So then you start trying to bargain with it. You're trying to do anything. Like, I don't want to die. I mean, you know, don't take me and all that. And the more you fight it, the more it takes you. And you go, no, no, no, no. I don't want to die, you know. I don't want to go. And finally this being says, you arrogant creature. You don't have control over your life and death. You're such an arrogant creature, you know. As if you have control. As if you have control. Yeah. And then see, do you have control? And then you're taken on your body and you look back. And then you come and you have to totally surrender to it. You go, finally you think of all the things you see. My creator, let thy will be done. What do you mean let thy will be done, you arrogant creature? As if you have a choice. You don't have a choice. Who do you think you are, you arrogant creature? And then finally you just have to get off it. Totally surrender and not argue with it, you know. So then as you come closer and the light becomes brighter, all of a sudden you feel like terrible because you're not worthy. That being is so loving and caring in contrast to the way you've lived. That you feel you're not worthy to be able to even touch that loving and caring. You're caring for you and you start judging yourself. Your life stops, time stops and your whole life rolls back. And you see everything that you've done in your life. Wow. That is wrong, how you've hurt people, how you've hurt others, how you haven't honored your mother and your father. Wow. How you haven't, what you've done to your, all the mistakes you've made in your life is piled right up in you. Wow. And you have to go through each one and you're just, it's so painful, you just feel like you're being torn apart. It is the most painful experience of all as you go through the analysis of your life. All the shitty things you've done in your life, the thoughtless things you've done in your life, everything else. You go through that, time stops and you go through your whole life. And the closer you come to the spirit, the more pain you feel for being so stupid and so hurtful and not a good person. And you just go through a terrible thing of seeing how you've hurt everybody and you just feel that you're just a terrible creature, you know. And you're not worthy to be part of the creation. You're not worthy at all. And finally this force says, stop it. Stop it. Stop it, you arrogant creature. Who do you think you are? As if you had that knowledge. Like what you know now about that. Would you have done that? What you know now? No. So you see, you're not a bad, benevolent creature at all. Probably a stupid one. You haven't evolved. Do you think you're a god? Do you think you can judge yourself? What are you doing? Get off it. You can't judge yourself. You didn't know any better. That's why you did that. If you know now, going back, whatever you handle that differently, yes, I would have done this and this. Of course you would have done that. You see, because that's not your nature. You can't judge yourself because you're not evolved yet. You're not evolved to that extent of knowing what you're doing was wrong. You were heartless. You were selfish. Yes, you were all about yourself. And you thought you were more important than other people in making this decision or that decision. So you go through your whole life like that. And that powerful being guides you through because he's loving and caring and trying to get you to go off it. And have you see that, and then finally you get it that you say, but my creator, I come to you with this knowledge in my life. Most of it is how not to be and what not to do. But I have all this knowledge. And he says, you got it. You're coming to me with the knowledge of your life. And that's beautiful and that's very valuable. And then at that moment you're a part of everything. Very powerful. Wow. And you come to them with the knowledge of your life, very powerful. And then it's in the morning the elder opens the door and says, you have to come back, but you don't want to come back. Why should I come back? I mean, why should I be a stupid human being? I don't want to come back. I don't want to confine my spirit in that body because I'm one with everything. Why would I limit myself to be a human being? And the elder then comes in with a sweet grass and he has a very hard time to bring you back because you don't want to come back. He says, life is so beautiful. You've got to see the sunrise this morning. There's a dew on the grass and the sunlight is sparkling on the grass and it is magnificent. Since you've got to see how beautiful it is on this planet. Yes. Amazing, beautiful. It keeps talking to us about how beautiful life was and how beautiful it is. A gorgeous life is not important, it is. That's in pitching you to come back, selling you to come back. Yeah. And you don't want to come back. And probably it keeps telling you how beautiful it is. He's using the sweet grass to try to bring you back and bring you back to consciousness. Wow. And you don't want to come back. Wow, so the more that the elder takes you through the experience of the sweat lodge where you feel closer and closer to this being, to this near death experience where this arrogant creature that's trying to hold on to dear life is experiencing this being that is then flashing all of the moments, time stops, all of these moments of all of the times of ignorant behavior towards mother or father or malevolent behavior towards others, the lack of realization of the interconnectedness, all of these things flash before and then the realization of the spirit and the interconnectedness with the one, all is happening there. And then those moments are the reason why you don't want to come out of the sweat lodge once it's done. But there's heaven on earth happening. There's the beautiful sunrises and sunsets, the ecosystems of the creatures and the plants. The beauty of life. Beauty of life. But the beauty of being at peace with the Creator and at one with the Creator is more beautiful than that as well because it is a total peace. And so the elder talks you back and finally you say to the Creator, what he's talking about is so beautiful and the Creator says yes, it is. Life is beautiful. Can I go back for a second and see what he's talking about? Well, you're a free spirit. You choose. I'll be back in a minute. Time is whatever. But I have to see what he's talking about, to see that I've never seen anything more beautiful than that moment. And so then he says, you're going to have to walk with me back to the sweat lodge. He said yes. And I said, so he helps me back to the lodge. And I said, what's that in the distance? All that haze. And why are we walking on this land that's all plowed? What have they done to our mother? And he says, we have done that. And why are we doing that? And why is that all that dark haze over there, that city over there, you just don't understand. And then he come into the lodge with him. And because only after the second round did you get your first sip of water. So you go back in the lodge and he puts the water on the rocks, red hot rocks. Super hot there. And you start coming back into your body. And then he says, I really don't want to be here. I really don't like it here. Look what they're doing. Look what they're doing to our mother of the earth. It's not a good time. It's not a good time for an Indian. This is a challenging time of transition. This is a challenging time of consciousness evolution for the younger brother in the metropolis is to wake up to the elders' teachings, to the oneness. When I get my first sip of water, it's just so hard to take. It's just like my life is coming back in my body and painful. And so I'm sort of writhing on the ground. My elder looks at me and says, yeah, it's tough to be an Indian. And so he says, but you're back now. And you've learned something, haven't you? Yes, I have. He says, good. Then I was holding my pipe. And he says, that pipe is a very strong symbol of your experience. I said, yes, the most important thing in my life. He says, yes, but it's a physical thing. It's just a pipe. You're putting too much meaning in it. He says to me, it's very precious. It reminds me of my whole experience. He says, you're too attached to it. Go where you have fasted and bury it. And so I'll go there and bury the pipe. And I think, oh, my goodness. I feel like I'm burying myself in the lodge. And he says, you see, you can't be so attached to the physical if you're a spiritual being. And the pipe, when you get, I'll give you another pipe. But so when you take that pipe and you turn it in the four directions, heaven and earth, you'll be reminded that you have a pipe where you have fasted. And it'll remind you of that. So you now are a pipe carrier. And you're reminded of your connection to the Creator. And what have you learned? For one thing, you can't be so judgmental and critical of yourself. You have to care for yourself. And also learn if I can't criticize myself, how can I criticize others, right? And so all the things you've learned is very important. And that's, so now you can start this journey. So I said, I'm, you know, what I've discovered is when I have these terrible stress attacks, if I hear the songs, they seem to go away because the songs are very powerful. So I really have to learn those songs. She says, you cannot learn them. I says, how do I get those songs that are so powerful so I can keep myself in balance? Well, you're going to have to fast for them. Go what? Yes. When Spirit comes to take you, you can say, I'm my Creator. You can take me if you wish. I've only come here for the songs. He says, that's what you're going to have to do to get the songs. I go like, are you kidding? But then there was a time in working in the urban center that I needed the songs. So I came back to him. He says, so you come for the songs? I said, yeah. Okay. It'll take you a year to prepare yourself for that fast. I says, do you know that fast is a real challenge? I said, I think I died out there. And I says, you know, what you put me on, put my life in jeopardy. He said, you made that decision yourself. And I said, you've been on these fasts. What have you experienced? Exactly the same. Exactly. Why didn't you tell me and then I wouldn't have had to go on that long fast? You could have just told me what I would have experienced. He says, I couldn't do that because I would have robbed you the opportunity of you discovering it yourself by telling you that you would not have experienced it. And now you know you've experienced it and that is real for you. That is not, you know, a myth or it doesn't come from my head as a story. But you experienced it and that's real. I would have robbed you that opportunity if I would have told you, okay. Yes, experiential wisdom gained. So then I had to... So I used to always go to the lodge to get rid of my stress attacks. And so I learned the songs by going on a long fast. So I could sing the songs until I went to an elder's sweat who would then knock that shit out of me. And then... So I would sing the songs in the lodge for one of the elders. And finally the elder moved his lodge to his community so that I didn't have a sweat lodge anymore to be able to survive the city. So I went back to the elder and he says, now you want a sweat lodge for yourself? I says, I would really like that. I said, how could I do a sweat lodge for myself? Quite simply, you have to pass for it because I can't give it to you. Only the spirit can give it to you. So again, long fast for the sweat lodge. And then... So then I got my sweat lodge and then I was perfectly happy until someone came and said, I know you have a sweat lodge. Can I come and sweat with you? So I called my elder and said, what am I going to do? Did I deny you? No. Well, you're going to have to come here and pass with me to be able to ask the creator if someone could come in the lodge with you. How do you go through that? So people would come in my sweat lodge and I could run the lodge and make sure that it would be okay for the people in the lodge. And then somebody then asked me if I would do a doctoring lodge with an eagle swing. Can I do that? Yeah, you can, Raymond. But you're going to have to come and pass with me. Holy shit! Well, did I deny you? And you have to care for people and if they need it, you should be available for them. I was available for you. So then I had to pass with him and he was very hard-fought for the eagle swing. So that's the journey you would come. Yes. This reoccurring theme of indigenous wisdom around the world, of figuring out the different rituals, ceremonies, strategies in re-commuting with the one and feeling that true yoga as an experiential wisdom, this union with the one for all the different methodologies that exist, this seems to be, by far, the most first-principled thing that every child needs to experience as they come into this world and that we ourselves and our metropolises need to look at what the elders and what this indigenous wisdom is and embody it and realize it to ensure a prosperous future. Douglas, this has been such a fascinating conversation with you. I am so grateful, I'm so honored that we were able to pass this. Well, thank you. And when I'm working with a priest like Father Merck's, when I needed to church with him and then after, and it's a, I'm sorry that you went through, you know, that convent experience, because we used to have that connection in a church. We would go out and fast through these ceremonies and so I understand that and his thing is I believe that your path is a very important path and I respect that and we became good friends. Because I believe it's universal but that many cultures have that experience and any rituals I've experienced that and the old cultures, the hunter-gatherer cultures, the old cultures, they had the same experience, the same connection with the Creator. And I find that with the indigenous people in China I've been asked to go and work with some of the indigenous people there and they have these, they're different ceremonies but they're like the same. So when they come to Ottawa they ask me, can we have a sweat lodge together? And I know I had, the Moso people are a very matriarchal, the only probably strongest matriarchal community in China and they still have their language, their culture, their ceremonies and everything. So the Moso princess, she says to me, she came to Ottawa, can we have a sweat together? I said sure. So she went through the sweat with me and she says, when I went through the sweat my third eye opened to my ancestors, she says, we had a similar ceremony but we lost it 200 years ago. Do you think your elders can come and talk to my elders and maybe we can get it back? So there's that kind of connection that is universal, I feel, to people. And I know there was a shaman who actually was a shaman from China, a very powerful man who was a scholar and who was actually a member of the government because the Chinese government, although all the ministers are Hans, a lot of the top people in government are scholars and so he was a top member of the government. He was a scholar but he was also a shaman because they only hire scholars because they feel they need input which I found really interesting. So he wanted to meet me at the museum and we were having lunch together. He says, I understand this building. I walked through this building and I understand it and he laughs and he touches my hand. He says, only another shaman can understand this building. It's a universal language. And so it's really interesting no matter where you go, Indigenous people everywhere have that connection. My wife is Basque. She's an Indigenous person. We have that same connection. And her uncle is a priest and her mother a matriarch of her family. For fun we decided to get married in Las Vegas. Her mother calls something, that's not a marriage. You come home now. We have to do it right and so she decided that we'd get married in the center at Leola, the center of the Jesuits by her brother, who is a priest. It's a shared principle of Indigenous wisdom around our world is to re-commun with the one and this is the most important thing for us to bring into our modernity and incorporate and embody the true wisdom of it. Douglas, again, thank you for coming on the program. This is such an honor. Thank you, thank you. And I thank the elders for all their teachings, likewise. Yes, younger brother, wake up to these teachings. Thank you everyone for tuning in. We greatly appreciate it. We'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments below on the episode. Let us know what you're thinking about all the things that Douglas has been teaching us. We'd love to hear from you. Check out the links in the bio below to more of Douglas's work. Also check out the links in the bio below to the American Anthropological Association. Check them out and support them. You can support our show as well. You can find all of our show links below and support the artists, the entrepreneurs, the spiritual leaders, the organizations around the world that you believe in and go and build the future. Re-commun with the one. Manifest your dreams into the world. We love you very much. Thank you for tuning in. We're all brothers and sisters. Yes, we are. We'll see you soon. That's a wrap. Are you okay? It was incredible. Thank you, Douglas. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I'm so blessed.