 Good afternoon, good afternoon. It's really a great pleasure for me to to be here with you today for this for this conference I'm really looking forward indeed to hearing The conference which will be given by a Mr. Kaberuka. I am Erica Geritzen I'm indeed the director for human development in the director general for international partnerships in the European Commission in Brussels The European Commission is partnering for this for these capuchin ski lectures with UNDP to organize a series of conference Conferences on sustainable development. This has been taking place for many years And I'm really thrilled to know that there have been thousands of Students and interested participants who have been able to participate in those in those conferences Where we can think together about sustainable development and how we can work better together in this context Of course, we are here today and during this week a special week in New York around the UN General Assembly and all the other events and and encounters that are taking place And it's really a great moment for us all together As government partners institutions civil society actors private sector actors to reflect on where we stand on sustainable development goals And how we can partner better to move further further on this agenda And eventually as much as possible reach to 2030 goals as we know only 12% of the goals have met So far or on track of being met So there's a lot of work that we need to do a lot of thinking and this thinking is taking place in places like this one The European Commission remains and the European Union remains fully committed to the SDG agenda To the sustainable development goals, and I would like to highlight two specific features of our common and Current engagement on this agenda To highlight to your attention first the EU has started and launched since 2021 the global gateway strategy The global gateway strategy is our response to the finding that official development assistance alone Will not be able to support and make sure that the SDGs can be met Therefore we need to mobilize private financing domestic financing Around this the agenda of the SDGs around policy and priorities From our partner countries around the world and the global gateway in this endeavor is also promoting developing Infrastructure as we know that infrastructure in many different sectors is essential for the development and for the creation of jobs and Long-standing and sustainable Development so the global gateway has a five different key Pillars and sectors in which we are intervening on digitalization obviously the green transition connectivity Health where we are investing a lot in Promoting for example the the production of vaccines and medical products in Africa Because we know that Africa has been extremely dependent on the import of vaccines for example during the Covid crisis and the fifth pillar of the global gateway is around research development and Education education being a key feature obviously and a key If not a prerequisite for the success of any of the other pillars which I have just mentioned So that's that's what we are doing through the through the global gateway and really working in in strong partnership Looking at the twin transition the digital and the green transition and working together EU together with our partner countries around the world on this shared agenda But within this and this is the second Point that I wanted to come at we know that inequalities are raising around the world They are raising in Europe and in in other countries where we work with in regions They are raising within countries and they're raising among countries SDG 10 is an important SDG because it is indeed cross-cutting it and it cross cuts across all the all the sectors when education health but also access to services digitalization Access to energy Obviously, so we are and and and my commissioner commissioner or p-line and my minister if I can put it this way It's very committed to this inequality agenda, and we have started and launched The use of an inequality market so for each and every action that we as a donor We we we have in in a country and we finance in a given country or at regional level or global level We measure and identify to which extent this initiative this project This investment is having an impact and a positive impact on inequalities This inequality marker has been developed in the context of the facility that we have with the French agency for development Which is an inequality An inequality a partnership around inequality, which is producing and a lot of extremely valuable research Papers and documentation database research around inequality, and I think that for those of you who might be interested It's it's good to look at the wealth of documentation and research that has been done on inequality in the context of this Facility so these are the two features that I wanted to highlight from the from the European Commission's Development and commitment to the sustainable development goals Agenda there are of course many more But but I think that's now it's the time for me to to hand over I think first to Jeffrey Sacks Who will introduce the the third the panelists by? Donald Cabruga for his conference Geoffrey Geoffrey over to you. Thank you very much Erica, thank Erica. Thank you so much and thanks to the Commission for its Wonderful work Because the European Union is one of the most important development partners Probably the most important development partner in the world the scale and the scope of what you do was enormous and very very important and Thanks also for partnering in the capuchin ski lecture series, which were absolutely thrilled Thank you all for being here and also the online Audience around the world because we're connected all over the world through the sustainable development solutions network We're going to hear from a very remarkable person and a person with the unique experience Donald Cabruga. I Don't know if there is anyone else that has his range of experience of development finance Because development finance is complex How do you finance the SDGs or finance sustainable development? partly through national budgets partly through partner support partly through Multilateral development banks partly through private capital markets and Donald Cabruga has been a leader in every one of those spheres So he has been the finance minister of his country of Rwanda That's a big deal Because the finance minister is really the place where all of these pressures come together and Where the budget is the core of achieving sustainable development in that capacity? He led the coordination of many partner institutions because one of the difficulties of being a development partners There are a lot of them. They're not all the scale of the European Union But there are more than 20 bilateral donor partners and then many institutions and Many countries get completely pulled apart by this demand for this demand for that whereas Rwanda very distinctively Said we have a plan you support us and that is a very clever thing to do which he really implemented Then he became the president of the African Development Bank So that's Africa's Multilateral Development Banking Institution That's a big deal because this is the main Multilateral Development Bank for Africa and in that capacity you have a continental wide perspective and you are lending for development Then he became chairman of the Global Fund to fight AIDS TB and malaria The Global Fund is a different kind of development finance The donors pool their funding and then a single specialized global fund makes grants for targeted very crucial purposes in this case to save lives from three Epidemic diseases TB malaria and HIV AIDS and so this is a very special kind of funding it's one I'm very much Attached to and beloved because I helped to set it up with Kofi and on back in 2000 2001 Launching this Global Fund and it continues its extremely important work and under Donald Carpenter who could expanded that work and that financing and now he is a private sector Investment advisor so now he's moving private capital to Equity and loans for business investment, especially in Africa. I asked him where he's based he said on an airplane that is the Place where lead investment advisors are based Because you're meeting clients funders Potential portfolio firms and so forth so here we have someone that has all the experience from 360-degree perspective From the country's perspective from a multilateral development bank from a global fund and From the private sector, so I'm extremely Delighted that such a wonderful leader and long-time friend and in many Projects colleague is here to give us the Kapuchin ski development lecture So let me welcome Donald Cabrura to you. Thank you Thank you very much Jeff for those kind words I must say that Jeff Inserting up the global fund teams these guys are visionaries Visionaries in a sense that in the 1990s Especially those of you are still very young You're not perhaps appreciate what HIV AIDS meant for almost everything Schools who are emptying doctors who are dying private sector could not find the skilled workforce and HIV drugs are very expensive very costly But thanks to what Jeff and his colleagues did now of perhaps reached a point where I Think I could confidently say it's a point of no return on HIV AIDS In fact in many countries who are targeting falls known as 90 90 90 So 90% of the people should know their status and 90% of the 90 should be on drugs if they have HIV at 90% of them should be virus free That is an amazing development. So you have to say this Because sometimes you have to try and translate SDGs into reality and that is one of the achievement of this I think of the century now Thank you for for inviting me As Jeff said I come to field of development from all the sequels you have mentioned began off as finance minister of a Country with not much financial resources and With big ambitions so we had to figure out how you find development in those kind of circumstances and Managing the donors was one of them. Oh, all right. Can you hear me now? So can you hear me now? So I think that you know phase the finance minister of my country and You know the history of my country is quite challenging and Then thereafter I became the head of the African Development Bank. So I was providing now development finance So I went from the one who you may call the recipients. It was a word to become what they call a development button and Then as Jeff said when I left the bank I end up in the global fund now mobilizing Global donor funding for these epidemics. So I've been there from these three angles and so what I thought I could do Today is just make three key points And I want to focus on Africa mainly and around development finance You know the continent of Africa Up to the year 2000 Was mainly experiencing negative real back capital growth for almost 30 years growth was about 3% and Population some kind like the Sahel above that. So the continent was getting poor at the same time facing the whole lot of challenges epidemics and other disease burdens which are not epidemics by Imposing high-cost social and economic on the country and Then a number of conflicts. You remember the war in Sierra Leone and Liberia in Angola in many places So the continent was getting poor But around the turn of the millennium something happened and For the first time we began to see real per capita growth in many countries In fact a word was coined wrongly in my view called the Africa rising Perhaps a bit premature, but that was what's happening and If you took health alone The changes which have happened between the year 2000 now are remarkable The fastest decline in child mortality in human history The fastest decline in material mortality and many other indicators But here's the problem Here's the problem The point is that many of those achievements were funded externally by partners and So what we face now is what we can call? sustainability of those achievements How do we sustain those achievements in a new global landscape where probably probably Judging by what happened at the last global fund replenishment When one of the G7 countries literally dropped out It is most likely now that will outfigure another way of funding those kind of programs now It's not simple about sustainability more than that When I was giving my fair speech at the global fund I said to my colleagues from the global south that Outsourcing the health of your people to the goodwill of foreign taxpayers Is not a policy. It is an an alibi for the absence of one You simply can't do that. So the starting point is Developing countries will have to do a lot more for themselves Now you may say but this is a cry in the wilderness But just look at what a new president of Nigeria has just done Oil subsidies who are costing the count about ten billion dollars a year ten billion dollars And as you know in all these untaggated subsidies They're inequitable and inefficient They benefit mainly welfare people with beacons and so on Okay, but if you reduce those subsidies and you tag it to them to those who need The savings are huge And if you target those savings to finding things like SDGs That would be a Reflection of your own commitment to your own people without necessarily increasing the tax burden Angola is the same Angola spends about four billion dollars on oil subsidies All right So already in terms of public finance management, there are many things we can do ourselves in our countries By raising more revenues by better spending by more equitable spending So the starting point in finding the SDGs. I Want to put it to you that for the majority of countries We'll have to do a lot more for ourselves in terms of Better spend more equitable spend. So that is starting point But that is not enough especially in countries Which are characterized as fragile states or with lower Tax base So the next thing then would be what? So I traveled to Vietnam About two months ago in the activities of the Global Fund And the Minister of Health said to me They have not had a single case of malaria for two years for two years and I just was curious about what have you done and When they walk with me through things I've done remember Vietnam why it is all right Vietnam laws can border where they are this malaria areas for two years not a single case malaria All right, and when she walked me through what they have done it was simply around efficient spending better spending Dispending on this particular problem But there is something else the Vietnamese have done which Jeff, maybe you since you're an expert in these issues you may have to Explain better than I The GDP of Vietnam Was our 14 billion dollars in the early 1990s 1414 The GDP of Vietnam now is just below 500 billion dollars from 14 to 500 billion dollars in The last few years So I was keen to understand a Was this a main case in GDP? Or did it also impact the people in terms of housing health and education? Yes, it has All right, but how did you actually transform the economy in such a big way? It turns out Number one Investments in education outcomes not education inputs Education outcomes I Think there is now a whole set of literature Which is showing how even a Small kind of like Vietnam could actually invest in education in which gives you the outcomes you want number two energy the investment energy Remember I talk about SDG is again Well now 800 million people in the world who don't even have a bulb 8000 million people But if you add the energy needed for production The numbers go up to 1.2 billion But any Vietnam that have invested in energy and that is helped and What is up in that they've been able to attract massive amount of foreign direct investments Especially from the lack of Korea Taiwan and Japan All right, I don't know if some of you may be aware of it Each time you buy your Samsung product The chances are One before that has been made in a Vietnam Not in South Korea so attracting investment, but to attract investment you have to put the basics in place So that is one more thing we have to do how to grow the economies, but grow them more equitably Attracting investments and then collect the revenues needed for funding development Okay, but even then would not be enough so Why the conversation now around How the World Bank Other international financial institutions should work differently It is because a the model we have had since the 1960s Which is of a closed envelope isn't no longer working very well and Increasing people arguing that I Think even one of your colleagues Jeff has said that very powerfully That if you look at the demographics of the world today a Large part of the global north what you call global north Is having what you can call a glut of savings But again because of demographics Those savings are not attracting an interesting return Look at Japan with negative interest rates or Many other countries so because of demographics, there is a glut of savings yielding very little in terms of But on the other hand in the global south it is opposite problem the global south because the demographics would yield a better return all right if it could attract those savings but There are those savers in the north or institutional investors Fear things like currency risks political risks. So someone has to pick up that risk And there is an argument that now if we Put aside for now the issue of global goods which I'll come to The best way to attract capital to low-income countries with dynamic demographics Would be for some organization in between to pick up some not all of the risks to pick up some of that risk and then you Provide a win-win for savers in the north and for countries the south who require Invest education health energy and so and so I'm hoping that in the conversation going on about the reform of financial institutions We figure out how to make them less risk-averse I lead one I can tell you We are very risk-averse for reasons to do is a Shareholder's preference for triple A rating and stuff so We have to think about how to reform the international finance institutions So rather than being simply handing over a closed envelope How will you attract? Savings available in the private capital markets It doesn't matter even if you increase now the capital of the institutions by three four times It will still be small in relation to the challenge But just to be small in relation to what is available in the private markets so Closing that gap closing that gap is I think what will enable many of us to find the Decades I Don't know whether the phrase from billions to trillions is still in vogue But we are nowhere near the billions let alone the trillions and The way to find the trillions Isn't the private markets? But private markets are no charities. All right, and they look at the risk They look I can't relax we're done. What's going on? Look at this. I say look this is to risk So we're very very hopeful that in the reform of the financial institutions This matter be given a lot of attention that shareholders Will allow these institutions to take one a bit more risk and thereby attract private capital now If I don't know how much time you decide to give me sure sure sure Now I'm not naive I'm not naive to believe that We can achieve all these sdgs at once. I'm sitting on a panel On the Sahel set up by the UN Secretary General and African Union I don't those of you familiar with that region from Mali, Burkina Faso, Niger, Chad, Sudan You'll talk about a hundred million people Some of the house demographics in the world some of the lowest Human development indicators in the world and of course now the issues of jihadists and the aftermath of the Libyan crisis So there will be large areas of the world Where things I'm telling you now more domestic spending attract investment attract capital will not be feasible in the short term For those countries who should need international solidarity Which is much more vigorous and has been in the last few years. We need the lack of the European Union to be a pattern you know, I I kept saying to my friends that Some have talked to my friends in the European space vis-a-vis Africa Understandably the Asia focus on three things Number one is migration of course migration All right But they forget that most of the migrants are not from Africa actually and They forget that actually 80% of all the Africans who crossed their borders go to other African countries. They don't go to Europe But also they forget that Europe actually needs migrants But it's an issue for them. The second of course would be China. I won't go there and then the rest would be To deal with Radicalization and terrorism that kind of stuff, but I always remind my European friends of it Europe and Africa are like twins the air some is twins and There is a way we can relate to each other, you know, which addresses your social concerns, but also I will come Along the lines of justice described. I Think it can be done. It's the interest of Europe is the interest of Africa And that's what will enable us to do some of these areas While we still need a lot of international solidarity because it may take time to attract investment to grow the economies For funding the SDGs. So I thank you for listening and I'm happy to answer your question Thank you very much. And let's stay on this big picture issue which I think is at the core of the core of the economics of Ending poverty and achieving sustainable development as you said the rich countries the high-income world is Capital rich the returns on capital are there, but they're modest of course the growth is Low not zero, but just what new technologies allow because the Availability of high returns on basic investments is long long past and The rich countries are aging and saving for retirement. So they have access saving The lower-income countries are younger much more dynamic a lot of headroom for technological upgrading by investing in Infrastructure of course a lot of potential for Raising skill levels because education levels historically have been much less in terms of years of schooling or Access to higher education So traditionally in economic theory, we would think that the high saving of the Capital rich region would flow to the higher returns of the capital poor region and The example you gave of Vietnam Shows that growth can be very fast indeed and the Example of the largest case of this China shows that growth could even reach 10 percent per year on a Sustained basis for 40 years because between 1980 and 2020 China had an average of about 10 percent per year growth That means a doubling every seven years in the size of the economy seven years to double if you grow at 10 percent per year And that means more than five doublings Which is two to the fifth power or 32 times China increased nearly 40 times in its GDP during this period and by one measure Output at international prices China's by far the largest economy in the world by another measure output at Market prices China's second to the United States But all of this is to say the growth potential is very high in a capital poor Country if the right investments are made and those investments are education health Infrastructure and the business that thrives on that whether it's for mining or agriculture or tourism or industry So just to say I've I've been trying in recent weeks to make a simple calculation What is the rate of return to economic development? Seems like a little bit of a naive question but if you view a whole economy like a business and you say this is a business that has an investment proposition at The level of the nation the investment proposition invest in the people invest in the infrastructure invest in the business and using a standard Economic model framework You can calculate the high growth that can come from the high investments And then you can do what would be done in a corporate investment scenario asked. What is the internal rate of return? To investing in a low-income country as it becomes a high-income country the answer is Somewhere between 14 and 20 percent annual rate of return That's high You don't get that in many places Development is a high return activity So naturally you would say well all these venture capitalists should be investing in low-income countries and then they don't So the return is high but the flow of investment doesn't come and Then you ask the puzzle. Why is that and I think that there are a couple of answers, but One basic answer is it's a pretty complicated investment If you're investing in a business, it's described as well. We're going to build these three factories We have these suppliers. We have these customers and here's our market in the next ten years And this is why we have a 20 percent internal return over the next 15 years and then 10 percent later And therefore we can finance this deal But with the country it is well, we have the education minister and She's going to be investing in children for the next 40 years And they're going to grow up and they're going to be very skilled But that'll be 25 years from now that they're in the workforce and we're investing in roads rail power Digital and that's 15 to 20 years, but we're going to get there. That's good and By then the investor says, you know, I need a five-year payoff. Are you kidding and? You have to say yeah, but development is a 40-year process It's not a five-year process and it seems to me that this is a fundamental Issue Which is the hard part is you have to know where to invest and When the money flows in it can't all be taken away, you know, the investment has to be made and well-governed I personally believe that that absolutely can be accomplished that that's not the biggest Challenge of this story though it sometimes is to my mind the biggest challenge of the story is it takes a long time and it's complicated and Investors invest in simpler things. They want to invest in a power plant. They want to invest in a road project They want to invest in a single thing But you have to put together all the pieces and say this country is a good investment prospect or this continent is a good Investment prospect and my argument would be the returns are extremely high But you need really patient capital and you need to say don't give us a seven year euro bond Or don't ask us to pay off in ten years that first grader will only be in tenth grade then They're not going to be repaying Through higher taxes or through their skills in the labor market. You got to give them 25 years So give us long-term finance and we will deliver the highest returns in the world Higher than investing in Google higher than investing in Apple higher than investing in any of these tech firms But you have to be patient. So that would be my argument. I wonder what you think of it No, I mean exactly to the point No, no, go ahead. Thank you very much. I was really extremely interesting to listen to you and to your presentation and I really like the way the way you framed also the The relationship between the European Union and well between Europe and Africa more generally and and indeed I think that this long-lasting relationship is very dear to many people very and very important to Too many of us and we want to cherish this relationship And I believe indeed that as you put it the shared interest is really at the core of what of the renewed partnership between the continents as we recognize that there are indeed That there is so much potential indeed in Africa for Europeans to invest European private sector And this is actually exactly what we are doing with this global strategy global gateway strategy Which I was mentioning in my introduction just to name two sectors in which we are particularly looking at but But there are many others. Well, there is there is the energy sector and the climate Well, they did the energy transformation and there was an important summit in in Kenya recently on the climate Agenda the African climate Agenda which which I think was really interesting and where the EU showed a strong interest with our president from the lion who was there Notably to speak about hydrogen for example investments, etc So a lot of potential on the in the energy sector a lot of and which goes with it a lot of investments and potentially in the critical material sector which of course also here and needs a lot of good governance Around how you are going to extract the resource resources and making sure that the revenues and the wealth that is coming from these extractions Actually staying in Africa. So this here. There is also very strong Agenda in relation to this private sector investment The pharmaceutical industry I was also mentioning earlier is is one of these areas where we want to or sectors in which we want to trigger exactly this investment by private sector European private sector, but not necessarily To invest in Africa create jobs and value in Africa really having these value chains built along the road and making creating the wealth and again Resources and and maintain them in Africa, but from an economic perspective I think it's also interesting and you mentioned the fossil fuel subsidies from the financing viewpoint fossil fuel subsidies are indeed Still there as we know, it's a completely regressive Public spending it's not It is not contributing to reducing inequalities the contrary even if it is sometimes complicated for People to understand I think it's important to reduce Those fossil fuel subsidies making sure that the most vulnerable or those who actually cannot afford the extra prices that this would mean Could be compensated for that in one way or another through social protection systems for example from from So on the financing side, I would say that two things there is the financing of the private sector and making sure that the private sector Can invest and for that you mentioned de-risking and de-risking is obviously the key word because all I mean the 14% Is not happening why or I mean investment is not taking place Why because the risk is perceived as too high and it's really a question of risk perception and I think that's more Sort of analysis on this perceived risk would be very useful We are for now completely dependent on credit rating agencies private agencies who are measuring this risks You know, should we actually maintain such a system? And and should be should be should we really be dependent on this and I would really like and be curious to hear your views on this And then there is also then there is a sovereign financing and there comes the question of debt obviously And we are now facing again a situation where the debt levels are becoming very high and sustainable in many in many countries And and and here also I would I would be happy to hear your views on how do you see this that's the situation moving forward and unfolding And and another source of financing that we are not mentioning that we Do that we should mention more in my view is the illicit financial flows and the tax evasion and here again There is an untapped potential for African countries to to really Make sure that taxes are paid whether at you and that those revenues actually flow into the into the national Into the national budgets. I will I will leave it at that for the moment First of all, I really want to agree with both of you. Yes issue of patient capital. I totally agree with you The tenure of these loans is Ridiculously low. So I totally agree. I just want to add a nuance on the issue of debt And And I want to frame it this way So on issue of debt, there is the composition of the debt the speed of accumulation and What you invested These things have to be taken together. My country has no problem with that now All right, the net present value the debt is 30% That the GDP sounds of 50% so we're fine all right, but they're few countries where the composition of the debt the speed of accumulation and The thing they invest in they could have issues But it is something else. We should also see You see in the aftermath of all these crises who have had Rich countries had one huge advantage, which is the group into money They're good print money. They did print money Okay, so now the economy close Have not disappeared if you push too much and put it out there one day you'll have to pull it back Okay, now we're facing inflation So they can't do so printed money All right, I know pushing up interest rates All right, and those who are paying For those policies are borrows from the global south We have to be open about it. All right, so it's okay for each country to deal with the inflation Okay, but it has consequences. It has consequence for us in the global south As well, I should say that because I think there's too much confusion around the debt issue. All right I know that a few countries who have mismanaged the debt and That is a governance issue but for many others is small the Impact of these synchronized Almost simultaneous shocks to the system which have weakened the the economic fundamentals How do you explain that a country? Which does everything right in policy wise has to deal with? the aftermath of the global Financial crisis the aftermath of Libya the aftermath of the pandemic all happening at once All right, obviously the fiscal base would be narrow if it narrows That will be competing with the health and education So as well, I should say that because I think there is some self-saving Narrative on that which does not Bring out the whole picture. Okay Number two on credit rating agencies. I Really wonder sometimes Because during the global financial crisis This matter was discussed in the G20. All right How come they never saw Greece coming? How come they never saw all those issues in the Mediterranean region? All right When those guys could borrow competitive Because they were seen to be less risk All right, but it was a Greece probably even more risk than my own country. Maybe because The rating is believe african can do the risky by definition almost all right perception and So there is a discussion now going on about What to do about it? Of course investors will always make their own assessment Even if you say to SNP and moody's and fish get out of the way Investors find another world assessing the risks So I'm more for international financial organizations To take this matter up in terms of the risking but also help in clarifying what are the risks which investors face And I'm happy that as conversation is going on. I want to add also by saying this Jeff and this on the global public goods Because I'm just wondering She's a Copenhagen Who is not here about the hundred billion dollars per year to deal with adaptation and And mitigation. We're still talking about it We're still talking about it. Look at pandemics Because COVID was a threat to Everyone in the world It became top of the agenda But since the WHO Credit COVID is no longer a threat to public health Global health has come down in the list of priorities, but you know what? COVID has now joined HIV-AIDS malaria tuberculosis is a problem for the global south All right, but it is no longer a problem for the global nothing All right, so I think there is a way we have to think about these issues Because there is again another self-serving argument about no one is safe until all of us are safe And then suddenly find you have no vaccines. I Was on the Africa Union team During COVID which is set up by the plenum of South Africa as chair of the union Even when we had money We could not find the vaccines Even when we had the money we could not find the vaccines But there are some countries, you know very well who are the patches of vaccines? several times what they need and then a couple of months before expiry look they ship them to So those kind of I would call it unfairness and fairness is not strong enough It's not strong enough When is a pandemic a threat to global health security? Only when it threatens rich countries But if it threatens only kind of the global south, there is a matter for philanthropy Development organizations, all right. And so these are issues you have to handle And I believe that again the reform of the international financial institutions or how we handle global public goods We have to be given much more attention than I fear The current agenda of which country is giving it if I could add jump into this discussion also so many resonant Points that are important I Have to say if you just allow me to reminisce for one moment the global fund emerged out of my mouth in July 2000 at Durban and the reason that it did is that there was an AIDS pandemic But in the rich countries people were receiving drugs and In the poor countries not at all not at all and I was flying into the international AIDS conference in Durban, South Africa, and I was reading an article by the World Bank and I reached the end of the article shaking mad Because the article was what the poor countries should do about AIDS, but it didn't mention antiretroviral medicines as even an option for poor people It mentioned bereavement training to help companies Cope with the big losses deaths of their workforce, but not drug treatment So by the end of the plane ride I handed it to my wife I said can you find the word antiretroviral in here and she couldn't and so we got off the plane I went into my talk and I blasted the World Bank We're not doing anything and said we can't rely on the World Bank We need a new global fund to fight this disease and It was for me exactly the phenomenon you cited which is it's a crisis if it's hitting us But this is part of the the reality On the question I would say of debt and finance I just wanted to add one one thought I Don't think the African countries are over indebted even the ones in debt distress The countries in debt distress have a debt maybe a 50% of GDP for gross public debt But as you heard Greece is probably about a hundred forty or a hundred fifty percent of GDP I haven't looked in the last few days Japan certainly at that level for gross debt over 200% by the way net debt a bit lower many many countries with much higher debt levels, but triple a ratings One reason is that those debts are in their national currencies or in the euro in the case of European Countries where the European Central Bank finances these countries And by the way when the European Central Bank closes off the financing like it did for Greece Then there's a massive crisis when it turns it back on The crisis abates so that liquidity is really a big part of the issue The credit rating agencies don't know anything about Development I know and They say it They say professor sacks our job is to predict a credit event That is a non-payment on the debt and That is true if you're illiquid You can be with great growth prospects, but you can't pay the debt at the moment So if you're trying to finance a 40 year Development strategy with a five year loan You could become illiquid after five years or ten years because of a bad Situation because of a COVID pandemic or rising interest rates of the war in Ukraine or some other thing and you can't roll over your credit But it's not that you're over indebted you're not with the liquidity and We don't have a lender of last resort we have An intensive care unit The difference is a lender of last resort would lend you the money up front so you don't Nearly die in the meantime, but you just refinanced your loan Whereas the IMF is a internet as an intensive care unit You default you're in trouble your chaos is broken out and then they will give you a loan and this is a Big problem of the system. It was the big debate between John Maynard Keynes and Henry and Harry Dexter white in 1945 Keynes was the brilliant economist representing the debtor country Britain and Harry Dexter white was the Treasury official in the US Representing the creditor country the United States and we ended up with a creditor institution That doesn't provide a lender of last resort as opposed to John Maynard Keynes idea of an institution That would provide a lender of last resort my only point and advice is Africa needs a lot more debt a Lot more debt sound strange But if you grow at ten percent per year The debt doesn't look very large 40 years from now. You've had electricity Children in school Infrastructure you're growing booming The debt turns out to be quite small as a share of GDP a few decades down the road So we have to get away from a perspective of one year or three years or five years and Shockingly the IMF's debt sustainability framework just like the credit rating agencies is a short-term framework And I just wrote to Wrote to the leaders of the bank and the fund you have to revise this Because it makes no sense from a development point of view. You need to look ahead Not just take a static view of the situation. So I think there are ways to reconcile all of this. I want to bring our conversation to an optimistic close which is that I think the natural partnership of Africa and Europe is clear and the potential of Africa for very rapid development in The next 40 years and I say 40 years because it's from 2023 to 2063 and 2063 will be the hundredth anniversary of the Organization of African Unity the beginning of Africa as a as a unity now the African Union These 40 years can be absolutely as impressive as China's 40 years of development and this is what we're counting on and I count on this strong partnership of Europe and Africa to make it possible and on this brilliant man to help make make make the world Work in this way. So let us thank the European Union. Let us thank Donald cover Ruka and thanks to all of you