 You can listen to it whenever you want. We're going to call something like that. What kind of events do you have? I mean, rather than have someone tell them how to make a podcast, then they'll literally watch one being made. Me and Dave. We're going to talk about our sesame seeds. All right, this is real. This will be the only element I'm lying of bitterness that I'm going to let you talk about. The panel is the same every year. Every time. At every convention. Every convention that's happened since Apple started listing podcasts. How do I do it? The exact same thing. I've done 7,000 of them. I'm sure that every year. Apparently we should be doing one because we would have one. Give me the tweet version. Give me the 140 characters of How Do I Podcast. You need to make sure that you're having a good time. Talk about something you would talk about anyway. You got to remember quality wins out. Quality is important. Not video. Video's okay, but audio, audio, audio. Here's where everybody else. This is where I get to be like the James Dean Fonsi Rebel. Is everybody's like, you know, make sure that you're like editing and I go, never edit. Just be better. Just be better at not saying ums and ahs. They hate that. Everyone's like, what? This is the kind of left word thinking that I've never heard on this panel. Whenever anybody asks me how to get into podcasting, I say, build a time machine and go back to 2006. Yep. Although, I like to answer by saying, can we just open that door so they can hear a better version of that? What you need to know is the microphone is everything. You have to have the right microphone before you do anything by the right mic. How much did you pay for your microphone? 100. 100. Right. Yes. You have to. I'm really good at this wrong. Got to have passion. You have passion. I bought a road podcast for like 80 bucks. No, you did it wrong. You did it wrong. You did it wrong. You can actually buy experience with expensive microphones. Oh, sweet. It adds content. No, you rub it a couple of times. An old man podcast comes up. Ah, look at me. I'm over here. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Right when my bit was gone. Yeah, I know. Yeah, we were doing like replacement level. We have concerns here. You're no-carbon-y. I know. I'm no-carbon-y. You're no-carbon-y. You might be on that panel. Is he really? He is on that panel. Oh, that's hilarious. I think Patreon reached out to him and asked him to be on that panel. That's hilarious. Wait, I can't curse. Is he really here? And he's not here. He told me yesterday that he was coming. Dirty SOP. I know. I think we should just bum rush. Are we ready to go? All right. This is mobile. Serious stuff. Serious stuff. These are wireless right now. So unplug them. Yeah. Yeah, we should just walk over there. This is getting serious. All right, hold on. Let me get my. I have been on the show in six months. How do you do this? It's fine. Daily Tech News Show is powered by you. To find out more, head to dailytechnewshow.com. Slash support. This is the Daily Tech News for Friday, October 6, 2017. I'm Justin Robert Young from the LA Podcast 2017. And the beautiful Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles. Joining me is an esteemed panel. First, we have Jeff Canada from We Have Concerns. Jeff, how you doing? I'm doing very, very well. Hopefully you can hear me over the crowd. It's a little crazy here at the LA Podcast Fest. But I'm really excited to be back on DTNS. Thanks, guys. Yeah, how long has it been since you've been on the show? I don't know, but it's been a while. I think I haven't been on since my child was born, and he's a year. Wow. Well, it is an episode of Illustrious Returns. Let's get to somebody who hasn't been on in six months because he's been traveling the globe. It is Darren Kitchin of Hack 5. Hey, thanks for having me. You know, last time I was on, it was slightly different, but I like what you guys have done with the whole LA thing. I don't know where Tom. I remember there was being a Tom and a Len would illustrate, but Tom has been briefly sent to London. You didn't send him to a farm upstate, did you? Very upstate. Very upstate and across the pond. And the other voice that you hear is, of course, Allison Sheridan of NoSillicast. How you doing, Allison? I'm doing good. I'm doing fine. I get to be on a lot. Yeah. Maybe I'm only here when people are sick. I don't know. No, you are definitely on far more than these guys, but today we have all united to take over for the fact that both Tom and Sarah are not here, but we will do our best in their stead. Of course, big shout out to our producer, Roger Cheng, who is also helping things out. But first, let's start with a few tech things you should know. The AOL Instant Messenger will be discontinued December 15th after 20 years of operation, and a note is posted on the AIM Help page, which I mean, who is going to the AIM Help page? Searching it every day. It's stated services will end on December 15th, and all data will be deleted. Users with an at aim.com email address will, however, still be able to receive email. Mr. Funk O2 was my first AIM. Oh, that's true. Too bad you couldn't get in there a little earlier and get that first funk. I mean, listen, there was a reason why O2 had no other reason other than there was already a Mr. Funk. My father is Mr. Funk. Exactly. Any fond AIM memories? That's my first thing I was gonna say was I'm just really happy it's dying. So Ray Moosehead can just go away forever and I'll never have to explain it. And plomp off into the ether. It's gone to the farm-up state with GeoCities. Hopefully it will live on somewhere on archive.org. Actually, hopefully not. Oh, good question. I actually am very excited for the idea. I think we should all just get back on AIM until it's the last few days. Turn this into a party. Turn this into a party. It's such a popularity. It's gigantic. Let's make AOL reconsider like doing it. I would love as a nostalgia trip from now until December 15th, that'd be amazing. All comes all time. Yeah, if everybody in chat realm did this right now, AIM would be like, oh my God, we've got like a 900% improvement in our update. The problem is, I don't know if I could get a hold of a 700 hour CD in order to get some time back on AOL. I will say this, if you look at AIM and the kind of social networks that have broken out past that, if you look at how big chat is just in general, Twitter effectively being AIM away messages, but having that be the product. There is a real case to say that AIM is one of the most influential social products ever. 100%, I've seen so much snark online after this announcement came out, but you can't help but admit that AIM was- It was the social network here. Oh yeah. It was in college. That was the thing, at least for me. That that was the pre-Facebook Facebook of just like leaving, uh-oh! Or it was an uh-oh, it was- Boop, boop. No, no, it was the door opening. Yeah. Just leaving the messages. Like you would walk through the halls and the dorms and you would just hear that over and over and over. Oh yeah, oh no, no, no, yeah, yeah. The one person who never turned down their speakers. Or no, just went from blank sublime again. So you're like, just leave it on for the AOL and it's the messenger. And then so many good times with the cross-site scripting on that. I'm just gotta say, like there was a lot of fun that could be had considering it was just an HTML processor. Um, yeah, good times hacking AIM. And I'm afraid that it is probably that the whole thing is running on a Windows NT-4 server and they're like, you know, we just gotta we just gotta put this thing down. Oh man. There's no upgrading it. We just gotta take it to the farm out back. Are there even any clients left for this? You asking the wrong guy? I think both of them are upset. Yes. Another thing you need to know this morning is Blizzard debuted a beta version of its Battle.net program that offers offline mode and many social features including group text and voice chat. This to me is Blizzard taking aim at Discord, taking aim at Steam eventually as well with Destiny 2 coming on to the Blizzard platform on PC. I think they are making a big push to own that space. But I just downloaded Discord today. Is it over already? No, it's not over. But I will tell you that my friends and I actually prefer the Blizzard app right now. It is robust. It's easy to use. In all five hours that it's been out, for months we've been using it. This is just a beta with some new features and they've had a client that's great voice chat and we use that to play non-Blizzard games all the time. We just turn it on in the background and use that like we would use Discord. But this is something that Blizzard is very careful about what they come out with. That's part of their brand is that they do add that extra kind of level of polish. Do you think that this does significant damage to Discord which is gaming forward? I think this is the first step of getting there. This is adding features that are necessary to be a contender in that space. Groups and I think making it more like an Xbox Live or a PlayStation Network where your group exists beyond the confines of any specific game and it exists across a whole range of games and all of that stuff that you need to have appear offline, all those things that are just sort of basic requirements to make this everybody's day to day chat client when they're gaming, they're doing. So do you think that that's where the value will be only in gaming for that though? Or is that all it's targeted towards? Because Discord is not just for gaming, right? It is primarily. I mean, I think they get most of their user base from people that game, but I'm sure there are a lot of people that don't. They just added video and voice chat today for everybody and when we installed it, it said, hey, can we take a look at your Skype contacts and say, sure. And I don't know how it got them because I used a different username but must have gone by email and it knew all of my contacts. Mr. Funko too. Yeah, I got Mr. Funko too was the first one. All right, I'll tell you what, here's some more top stories. Yeah, wait, hold on, let's try that one more time. Well, I'll tell you what. Imagine it sounded late. Want me to sing it? After Privacy, after Privacy scrutiny, Mattel has canceled its upcoming Aristotle smart home hub aimed at children originally announced at CES. The device spurred a 20,000 signature petition from the campaign for a commercial free childhood as well as a bipartisan letter from two members of Congress. Aristotle was designed to be bundled Wi-Fi, a bundled Wi-Fi camera to monitor children, adjust ambient lighting and noise based on behavior and include advanced functions like answering children's questions and teaching the alphabet. So just in September of 2016, Mattel agreed along with Hasbro to stop online child tracking and then they immediately start doing this. Well, I guess it's child tracking so much as it's a virtual parenting so you can not parent your child. Well, they record all of the data. I thought that there was more of an indoctrination thing which is why I heard in other news that the board collective was coming out with their own home hub, smart hub, right? They've got the spokesperson, LeCudis of Borg. It's all about like getting them early. Well, let me ask you this because we have two parents here and I would guess that this product would be a more at Jeff's child's age. I don't know. Maybe my grandson is the same age. Maybe you want to keep track of your adult children though. Who knows? Maybe they're, you know. But this is more to be in the child's room and for a parent to be able to keep an eye on them at all times. Where is that line for you guys in terms of I want to have all available tools to monitor my child and this is getting a little bit too invasive and creepy and I don't want my child around it. I mean, I don't know. We have a camera that is a close circuit camera that we use when my child sleeps. I think most parents do nowadays have some sort of monitoring system. The idea that it's just connected to your Wi-Fi network and maybe connected back to Mattel I think is the one that feels weird, right? Yeah. With their history especially because they've screwed this up before. With, you know what I mean? Look what they did to Barbie. And we'll just leave that one there. Yeah, no. This isn't one of those things that gives me the heebie-jeebies but I certainly understand why it does for other people. That's not a product that I would rush out and buy but I understand why people think that it's a bridge too far. I think that this probably would have gone out and done well if it weren't for people who care about privacy and security coming in and saying, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Because I mean, how many of those webcams have sold with the hard coded passwords in them, right? Yeah, this already exists and you can troll through the show Dan database right now and pull up many cams that are just completely exposed to the internet, which is creepy and terrifying all at the same time. Well, I was proud of my daughter when I called her up and I said, say, you know that webcam you've got thrown away and I told her why and she said, yup, and got rid of it. But everybody doesn't know about it. The thing that's more, the other side of this that nobody's really talking about that I think is sort of the tip of the iceberg for some thing that's gonna be happening over the next five to 10 years is it had functionality where the kid can talk to it and ask it questions. But we're gonna see more and more of that as Ceres and Alexis and all the things. Well, I mean, that to me is where I think something like this is going to come along and not have the problems that this particular product had and whether it be because a company will be smarter than Mattel and rolling it out and really catering to the parents that shouldn't be worrying about it but should instead be looking at it as like a resource. But when kids are talking to Alexa now. Right, yeah. You know. I mean, at that point. How is this, I mean, this is basically just a Teddy Ruckspin. I was about to say exactly that. Like put an Amazon Alexa in a Teddy Ruckspin. Call it a day. When they came out with the show, that one cracked me up because they said, yeah, like you can use it as a baby monitor. It had an angle pelted up. And so I pictured you'd have to put your kid in one of those nets that you keep the stuffed animals in up on the ceiling. That's where you keep the overhead bins, right? Or the seat in front of you. I can't remember. One of those. Yes. So get this guys. Security researcher Will Schaefer discovered that Uber had granted undocumented app features in iOS allowing it to access screen recording. These are undocumented entitlement features with special permissions from Apple. And according to Schaefer's library of app binaries, Uber is only the third, is the only third-party app granted screen recording entitlement. Uber acknowledged this and said that the entitlement was stated that it was used to improve the screen rendering for their watch app. So why? Panic. Panic yet another stab in the heart of the public trust by the villainous Uber. You're not gonna believe what Uber did to Barbie. Why would they have granted that to Uber of all people? Well, I think this is one of those, as Tom likes to say, flood busting opportunities as much as obviously the narrative and rightfully so is therefore Uber to be playing the heel. This is a entitlement that was granted when they were building their watch app. And as Darren very kind of eloquently put there is a lazy but understandable reason why Apple would say this is okay. Well, you wanna wow people with it. Hey, we got this app that's really great and useful but on the back end, you've gotta build all the infrastructure and APIs and stuff to make those things work. And when you're really trying to just rush these things to market and be like, hey, check it out, our smartwatch as the Uber. You're like, okay, now how do we get the video from the screen to the watch most easily? Oh, just give them that API. We've already got one. Yeah. That makes sense. If you have ever used Uber on your Apple watch, it shows you where your car is coming from. It gives you that screen grab. That's how they got it onto your watch. Is it real time watching it move? You know, I can't remember whether it was a screen grab but it shows you how long it's been since I've used the Uber Apple Watch app. But for the five seconds that I did until I realized it was a lot harder than just pulling out my phone. Right, right. There was that functionality. And I think that this is something where the Uber has obviously done themselves no favors in terms of their reputation. There's a reason why their CEO is no longer their CEO and we have a new CEO now. But this does not. But it's funny that in this context, it's like, oh, why is Uber getting this and nobody else? And that's the conversation rather than, why did Apple give it to Uber and not, why else? I think it's an obvious answer to both which is Apple was making a watch and they needed apps and Uber was a big, one of those big high profile apps that you would want on a watch launch. And we didn't know they weren't sure yet. Yeah, and the selling point of the Apple Watch and smart watches in general and apps on smart watches are those one button apps. Right, I want food, hit a button. I wanna ride, hit a button. So I can imagine the conversation within Uber and their development team was something like this with Apple like, hey, so we're building out the Uber app, we wanna be like a launch app on the new watch. Listen, we're trying to get the screen from here to there and we're not seeing anywhere in the watch API how to do that most effectively. So it's a good user experience and Apple going, okay, listen, we got this internal thing, we're just gonna give it to you guys. Time period was really compressed to get apps on the watch for launch. But I got a question about that. If they could do that, why couldn't they use that exact API to get the interstitial screen from Wi-Fi networks onto the Apple Watch 3 so that if they can take that video at real time, send it to the watch and then you could tap it, wouldn't that be something that would allow them to get past that problem? They're having the Apple Watch 3? That's a really, really good point. There's a developer somewhere that's like shaking their head. I know, I already expected this out, they just haven't implemented it. Right, right, but they didn't give themselves the internal thing that they wanted, right? Well, moving on, a UK financial filing shows that Alphabet's AI DeepMind subsidiary generated 40.2 million pounds in revenue in 2016 but lost an overall total of 123.5 million pounds. DeepMind had to disclose earnings under UK law as it is still registered there as a private company. Expenses were dominated by staffing and related costs of 104.7 million pounds. DeepMind is ordinarily lumped into Alphabet's other betas in earnings reports, which lost a total of $3.77 billion in 2016. So DeepMind is Google's neural net AI kind of play. You've read about it a lot and we've talked about it a lot on this show. Did we think it'd be making money by now? I wouldn't have expected it to. So next gen technology, you really gotta sink a lot into the early days of these things. I'm saying like, oh, why isn't Uber making money? Exactly, right? I mean, we're in shallow mind right now. Did you hear what they did to Barbie though? I think what they need to do though is like say like, okay, okay, so we've developed it thus far. Now let's just like launch the DeepMind at the New York Stock Exchange, see if the AI can make itself some money. You know, see if it's a self-sustaining thing. Well, I mean, I do think that this is interesting and the reason why it's a news story is because Google hides this kind of stuff normally as we pointed out here, that it's normally in a much larger file. So this is, to me, the story here is that it is not losing as much money as one might guess. Right, I was surprised by the generated revenue part. Yeah, not by the loss part, right? Yeah, what are they getting money from? What is DeepMind doing that's making money? Well, maybe they're licensing it to Google. No, no, I think that my takeaway from here was like, oh, you know what? I think that alphabet breakout was actually a really good idea because they can take those, I don't wanna say losers, but those like up and coming things that they're really gonna take a long time to kind of like, you know, have that fireworks moment where it explodes. DeepMind is something, there are a lot of players in this game right now. And there are some like Watson that has a more recognizable brand. They need, for every time you hear DeepMind to think miracle. They want you to think, oh, it beat this go player. Like it did this amazing thing. It's going to compete in eSports. It's, you know, look what it's doing to Barbie. There's just so much, this would be so much better for people to laugh at these jokes. Hi, tellin' me, man. And that's why they got, I mean, it makes sense to hide it, right? But it is interesting to see how far along it is going. And also it's curious to see, you know, this is what it is, you know, doing in the UK. Who knows where it's doing elsewhere? Yeah. The Wall Street Journal has sources who say Russian government agents copied information from an NSA contractor's home computer in 2015 by exploiting vulnerabilities in the Kaspersky antivirus. The information pertained to the NSA's methods of network penetration and defense of its own networks. This is bad. The incident was discovered in the spring of 2016, according to the journal, and DTNS listener MB noted that Google's Travis Ormandy identified vulnerabilities in Kaspersky software in 2015. Last month, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security directed all federal agencies to stop using Kaspersky software, not immediately, but within 90 days. You know, it takes a while to uninstall things. Now, Darren's gonna have actual intelligent context for this, but I'm going to step in front of this. Just to bring the context of the show. This is something that we've talked quite a lot about, and specifically the idea that right now, if let's say you were in the security field, in the government sphere, now would be the time when you would want to try to attack a Russian security company because of how the political climate is. We have cast a little bit of a skeptical eye towards some of the criticism towards Kaspersky, but I would think this represents something a little bit more concrete to say that, well, maybe there is a problem here. Now, Darren. An example of which we could- Am I off base, or is this still something that we need to look at critically? Well, you're looking to me for some intelligent discourse, and I had literally written down in Soviet Russia, antivirus infects you. So riffing on that, I would say that no, it's- Furthermore. I do believe that there's a little bit of a witch. I see what you're saying as far as witch hunt stuff. There's a lot of like, everybody loves a good- I'm not- Who'd done it? I'm not saying it's a witch hunt because there's so much of this that is beyond what any of us can know. I'm just saying that it's a good environment for a witch hunt. Yeah, and then the same can be said of a witch hunt adjacent. It's just, you know, it's a witch hunting season. What are you people talking about? I think that the same could be held through as far as like Huawei, right? The Congress had the same thing about those. I think that that's actually showing like a sea change of distrust of like, you know, not made here kind of mentality. Like- Isn't the worst thing here, though, that the NSA guy took his work home? Well, okay, actually, you know, can I tinfoil on that one for a moment? Because this is like, you know, if Russia really wanted some NSA docs from contractors, all they really needed to do was wait until next year because those leaks from contractors are like an annual occurrence now, right? Yeah. So to tinfoil hat for a moment, if I were the NSA, I'd be like, ooh, opportunity for a honeypot. Let's send the contractor home with a treasure trove of misinformation because then we can analyze how the Russian hackers break in and potentially validate whether or not the allegations of conspiracy being compromised by the Kremlin are true. And we clearly can't drink the poison in front of me. Yeah. I really like your optimism on that. Maybe that's what's actually going on. Yeah, it comes back to the whole like, you know, whether or not the NSA is actually some like, crazy big brother with technology from aliens that we could never imagine, or if they're just like the DMV. Are we disturbed at all that it's come from 2015 to 2016? Some span of time there to discover this? They move at the speed of government. Yeah. I mean, we just found out that Yahoo got hacked like 14 years ago, so. Well, I hate to break to you, but AIM was really easy to hack back in the day. No, they're gonna find out all my messages to Mr. Funk too. O2, come on. O2. Google Fiber announced that its upcoming launch in Louisville and San Antonio markets, it will offer a package last year. Google announced that Fiber would halt future deployment, making these two markets the last two confirmed commitments to roll out the service. So before the show, we were chatting in the green room and the guy behind us was actually listening to us talk about this and he called me over and he said, I used to work Google infrastructure. And I said, oh, so why do they do something like that? Why do they stop doing something like Google Fiber? And his answer was really interesting. He said, you know, it's been a few years since I've been there, but he said it's, the thing about them is they've got a couple of scientists that are leading the company and if they read about something new, they're gonna go do that. And Google Fiber isn't sexy, it isn't new, it isn't the thing that's five years out, it is the thing everybody already knows how to do. So they're bored with it and they move on. And I thought that was an interesting answer. It wasn't what I actually expected. Well, I mean, there's also the fact that it didn't seem to be profitable. Laying Fiber is very, very expensive. It involves a lot of regulation. It involves fighting very crunched money interests. And although it was for its time, this imaginary hero that was gonna come over the hill and rescue us from, right? Right, we would point to this and say, low competition. So well said. Exactly. That's what they were doing. Yeah, that's their stated goal at the beginning was like, we're not interested in making this a business. We're interested in giving people an impetus to create it for their business. And then low, the publicly traded company, he started saying, wow, wait, this isn't really a good business at all. It's like, not a business political protest like infrastructure thing. I don't know. Even looking further back at infrastructure, this is actually typical of Google. If you remember the 700 megahertz spectrum auction where they were increasing the bid, increasing the bid. And then ultimately getting the FCC to put in place certain regulations where ultimately Verizon won, but they had to abide by certain things that Google was able to get in there by making. Which was good for us. Which was good for us consumers. So potentially, this Google Fiber thing, maybe this was the long plan after all was to disrupt the market in such a way that it changes some regulations in ways that we haven't just seen that that was actually the plot all along. Well, but the problem is that this kind of infrastructure deployment is so regional. Everything is city by city. And ultimately that's why it's so expensive is that it's not like you can just win a portion of the country, right? You can't just go like, all right, we quartered up the country and now you get to do the Northeast and now you get to do the Southeast or the Northwest. You have to go and deal with every city government and deal with every regulation and figure out exactly how that's gonna go. My buddy just got AT&T Fiber installed here in Los Angeles. And I'm insanely jealous because he has gigabit ethernet and I looked and I am also a resident of Los Angeles but not close enough to get, it doesn't work at my house. Would he have gotten AT&T gigabit fiber had Google not started with the whole, I don't believe so. I think you're right. I think it's to their credit that this exists at all. Oh, if you look at specifically the cities where Google did roll out fiber, it was almost. Oh, it was overnight. Yeah. All of a sudden everybody. Oh, we could never roll out gigabit fiber. It would be impossible what they're doing. What now? Actually, we've got a ton for you. I think at Dark Fiber, they turned on. They already had it there. So crazy that you were doing that. You were like, literally. The guys are in the truck right now. This is a funny story. Your piece is already on the way. I remember hearing that. Hey guys, if you wanna get all the tech headlines each day in about five minutes, go ahead and subscribe to the dailytechheadlines.com. You know, we can get into our discussion here since we are at the LA Podcast Festival and we have all been doing podcasts up here on this dais for a pretty long time. It feels like that up here on that dais. Make sure you leave time for a question from the audience. So is starting a podcast now, do you think harder or easier than it was 10 years ago? Start with you, Allison. Well, I started mine 12 years ago and I sat down and read someone else's XML to try to figure out how do I type in the RSS, create the RSS feed by hand. So that's a little bit easier. I look back and I see what other people are doing. I go, man, I'm still doing a lot of this the hard way, but I know this makes the show come out every single week. The tools are the big thing, but as we were joking around beforehand, I'm pretty sure it's not the tools that are actually the hard part of doing a podcast, right? I mean, it's the commitment, it's the time, it's the passion, it's getting guests to show up. All those are really the harder parts. And in those ways, I don't think that's probably ever gonna change. I would agree that the landscape has completely changed, but some of the core things stay the same. Obviously the technology has changed because when we started 10 years ago or more, it was all about BitTorrent and RSS. And yes, the landscape has changed, but you're right, about the commitment that hasn't changed. The amount of passion and time that you have to put into something stays consistent. The things that are different and other than the technology is the ways that you build audience and you grow audience and you interact with audience. And those present some unique challenges and we'll talk about those as far as how that has changed. Yeah. What would you say? I was gonna say that is the single biggest thing that changed for me, it didn't make it harder, it made it easier is in 2005, I was sitting alone in a room with a microphone. Now I'm still sitting alone in a room with a microphone, but I don't feel alone because I've got a live chat room while I'm doing the recording. And it's real stupid. I mean, they talk about the dumbest things, but... Wait, people talk about dumb things on IRC? I know, they talk about Barbie a lot. I'm not sure what happened, but something happened. But that to me made the job easier and so much more fun because the community stuff is crazy fun now. Well, it's interesting, because it's almost two different questions, right? Is it easier to start a podcast? Yeah, it's so much easier because there's so many tools as you guys have outlined. But the real question is, what do you want out of the podcast, right? Are you trying to make a living? Are you trying to make money? Are you trying to have a big audience? What is it that you're looking for by starting your podcast? And I think all of us can agree that it's very easy now to get a podcast, put it out there and have someone listen to it. That is much more simple than it has ever been. Because there are audience members. Let me actually adjust, Minna, to something that you said. Is it easier now than it was when you started to make a living doing a podcast or a heart? Well, when I started, they were like, you know, a dozen people making a living doing a podcast. So it, what year did you get in? 2005? Okay, yeah, yeah. So 2006, I guess, technically. But there are more people doing it, but there's also a much bigger fragmentation. It's a bigger pie, but it's also smaller slices of that pie. So I think there's probably more ways, more places that are willing to give money and more. Things like Patreon existing. Patreon is a huge thing. My God, if that existed 10 years ago, my life would be completely different. We'd be with thousands. Yeah, but also there are networks of people that whose whole job it is to find ads for podcasts. All those things that infrastructure didn't exist back then, but also it's a much more crowded place. So rising above just the ambient noises. I mean, isn't that, oh, that's the story. It's true though. Yes, but it's always been true, right? Of all entertainment. No, but podcasting specifically. I remember- Because we can say like, oh, well, we got in like right place, right time 2005. The same people can say like, oh man, I'm really glad I got in in 2010 before it blew up. Oh man, I'm so glad I got in in 2014. I remember getting a podcast. That's true, Mark Marin's like, I'm the first podcaster. I was doing it for five years, bro. Yeah, I remember when Kevin Smith launched his podcast and Mike, shame, he got it after the boom. You guys, I think he could have done well. I remember for the fact that everybody already has listened to all the podcasts and all the listeners. You make a great point. And that is, I think that the horizon is even larger. There is a huge untapped audience of people that will enjoy long form content like this that's deep and engaging and interesting and mostly ad-free. All of that stuff I think is right for a much larger audience. But I also think with that potential, I think it marginalizes amateur voices more. I think that what you see in the top 200 podcast now, for the most part, are famous people that are already famous from another medium, right? Well, even so, Leo has always been answering that question. How do you get a successful podcast? He says, well, first, have a syndicated television show for five years, and then... Yeah, no, it's true. Yes, and then you have these slip streams like talking about murder, right? Show up out of nowhere. Then all of a sudden, you can have literally no experience and have zero profile. Oh, you're talking about like an NPR show? No, no, I'm talking about one of the headliners here at this show of my favorite murder, which was somebody who was a writer for Mr. Show, but by and large, didn't have much of a profile. But if it hadn't been for the NPR podcast about murder, I'm not sure that would have been a hot... Well, murder always sells though. I mean, listen, the Discovery ID channel exists and then all these true crime things, true crime is something that's kind of come and gone from popular culture. I guess, absolutely. It will always give you an advantage to have specifically in where we are now in culture as the monoculture has completely shattered. So anything that everybody or a larger group of people can touch back on and say, oh, I remember him, he's the this guy, now he does this, like he's the fear factor guy. Now he talks about doing TMT and interviewing UFC athletes, right? That will always give you a leg up, right? But there is still, I think a solid amount of podcasting that is what was kind of the initial promise that started a show, build an audience and hey kid, we'll make you famous and you too can read ads for Nature Box. As far as how the industry has changed and new podcasts coming to gardener and huge audiences, one of the ones that I think about more recently is Hello Internet, which comes out of CPG Gray, which who made a name as a YouTuber and then out of that sort of like also making podcasts and the YouTube thing is like that short form, four, five minute catchy thing and then it's like, oh, well, you might as well, you've got a ravenous audience that's looking for those things that take forever to produce. So Darren, what you're saying is how to get into podcasting, see also my panel on how to get into YouTubeing. Well, actually, no, but to that effect, I will say that when people ask what I do and I try to say, I'm a podcaster and they give you this weird blank look and I'm just like, I'm a YouTuber. And they're like, oh, you're a YouTuber. I don't do any of that stuff, man. I don't even, I don't even try. What do you do? What do you say? I say I host stuff. I talk about tech. I talk about entertainment. I say internet radio show. Oh, that's good. They seem to understand that but I'm noticing people don't do that cock of the head anymore and it was ever since, what was it called? Disclosed? Now, what was the original one? Serial. Serial was the first one. Since then, people seem to know what a podcast is. I find that the second I use that word podcast, it's the conversation that lays completely out. In fact, I remember it was actually just recently cleaning up hack5.org which is like a WordPress install from 2005 that I can't believe is still going but I found yield blog role and in it was a list of all of the places that we sent people to back in 2005 and it was like techtainment.net and vidcast.org and both of those are great examples of they were literally a blog that would list the new video that just hit the internet. Oh, man. Every time there was a new video on the internet. Oh, wow. We put, I had a comedy group that put our sketches on Adam Films because there was no YouTube. We put stuff on just aggregators. That was all it was. And at the time, there was this big debate like, oh, well, what is this video that's a podcast, is it? And then people are calling them vidcasts and IPTV. And IPTV. Yet now like it's really just easier to say I make videos on the internet. Hashtag old enough to remember. All right, we'll hear. I have a question for you guys. Can I, I mean, it's wild, kind of crazy. I'm gonna, it's not on the agenda. It's going nuts. Yeah, okay. So have you found that once you started doing podcasting you sort of pull, I lost the word proliferated into other podcasts, creating more of your own. They sort of, they seem to spawn each other. Are you guys having that problem? I think that's a question for Justin. Yeah, I mean, I don't have a problem. You have a problem. No, I mean, I think part of the making the living and podcasting thing is, you know, making a lot of them. And also just figuring out, you know, just scratching that lotto ticket and seeing whether or not your guess on what the audience wants, the way that you're building your show, the people that are on the show with you, how the audience is responding, how long it is, whether or not all your guesses on that are right and they're never right. So then you gotta change it a little bit, right? And then you see whether or not that right, that that's good and that's right. And then if it isn't, then you gotta shut it down. And sometimes that's a longer process and you wind up doing a lot of them or they're of a certain level of success and it just makes sense to keep doing it. But I would not be able to make a living if I didn't do this 7,000 podcast that I do every week. I tell my wife, a lot of little things add up to one reasonable thing. And that's how I make a living. But yeah, no, I think that there is, once you figure it out and also part of it's like, you know, why we build this television station if we're not gonna do, you know, a bunch of television shows, right? Like there's, when you have the equipment and you have the know-how, I think absolutely, there is a drive to just keep going and making more. So I don't do it for a living, but I do it, I just can't stop doing it. My shows get too big and then I break them off into more shows. So they just, I'm afraid that 10 years from now, I'm gonna have 20 shows, but I'm too, because they just keep spawning. They show up by themselves. You're gonna be like the crazy podcast lady. Yeah, yeah, with like podcasts all over the house. I know I left, sometimes my shows crawl under the furniture. All right, Allison, let me ask you this and we'll go down the road here. What's the biggest change you've noticed from when you started and what is the biggest change you see happening going forward? Ooh, the second part will be hard because I'm really bad at forecasting anything into the future. The biggest change for me was definitely the community stuff. We've, Steve and I have become friends with people all over the world. We've traveled to Europe to meet people to New Zealand and met people because of the podcast. So I talk a lot to my human real life friends. They say, oh, well, the internet, those aren't real friends. I said, well, no, I've gone to Ireland to meet them. I've gone to all these places. And even the people I've never met in real life were really good friends with this guy, Kevin. He lives in Virginia. We know his children. We know what they like, what they do. We know his wife. We know where he lived. Stalking him practically, but it is a real friendship and that's something I just absolutely didn't see happening in that. As far as going forward, I am literally the worst predictor of the future in technology of all times. I actually said that you'd never need anything bigger than the screen and a 512K Mac. Okay. I said that. All right. I think you're still out. I think you're still out. And I also said, you'd never need color. There's no reason for color. So I'm not gonna take that second question. Okay. Good punt, Darren. I would say that the, when we very first got into this, it really felt like a sea change of like the origins, the passion of the internet was coming out in ways that we call it all love. The open web, using a constant distribution with BitTorrent and other open source technology and using RSS feeds and things that really democratized the media. In fact, that was actually the big word back then was the democratization of media. And we look at where it is now and I see like it's very difficult to try to like, you know, it was hard back then to explain to people. And I feel like there was an uptake in like RSS and such. And then there was like that drop off again where now it's like, oh wait, that isn't an app. And the app has become like the YouTube Reds of the world or the Facebook walled gardens of the world where it's like, okay, well, I'm gonna go take a flight. Let me download some stuff on YouTube Red rather than download it on an RSS feed with a podcatcher. It feels like there's much more walled gardens and less of the open web that started this. And do you think that that gets more or less over the next five years? I think it gets more, but I think as unfortunate as it is that actually garners a larger audience just that ease of use factor. So there's, I think there's still opportunities for, you know, an open web experience to harness that same magic that the Facebooks and YouTubes of the world have done. I just haven't seen it yet. I think for me, the biggest difference we kind of talked about this a little bit already is Patreon, quite frankly. Because- Seconded by the way. Yeah, when you, you know, podcasting started and it was like, oh my gosh, anybody can do this. But there's really no way to make money unless you link together and figure out a way to sell ads and da, da, da, da, da, da. There was still an intermediation that happened to a walled garden, a gated thing that, you know, gatekeepers, right? That said, you can't do this unless we can, you can sell nature boxes for example. Exactly. And that specific problem, I think, really only got worse because once podcasting was new, you had a lot of, you know, just like, feelers of companies that were like, eh, let's spend a little money on this. Let's try to toss a little cash in there. And then it didn't quite pan out and it didn't quite grow fast enough and then that sort of came back. And all of a sudden, this is what I like to call for anybody who's listened to a lot of podcasts, the Netflix and Audible era. Oh yeah, yeah. We sold Netflix like heck on TRS, man. Exactly, and the reason why was because there weren't a lot of Ford, Microsoft, you know, a paper towel, you know, kind of stuff that wanted to, big companies that wanted to go do it. So the companies that were willing were either right in the demo. You are cutting edge, you are spending money on stuff, you have disposable income. And you're on the internet. And we are maybe gonna pay you a little bit, but we're really gonna try and sell you on the future of this, which is you get a cut whenever anyone signs up. And that was low risk advertising that could be blanketed all over a ton of podcasts. And now you've seen a little bit as the pie has gotten bigger, you've seen a little bit more of at least new companies come in. I really thought it was gonna go to somebody figuring out micropayments. That's what I thought was gonna happen. So again, I'm wrong. But I thought somebody would come up with this way that we would all just get a piece of it with micropayments with that. Different colored ones. Yeah, I guess. I don't know. All right, well I'll tell you what, I'm glad that we've solved, we've charted the complete history and a total future of podcasting. Asimov would be proud, foundation style. We've totally nailed it. Let's go ahead and thank our amazing panel, Allison Sheridan, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for letting me be on the show here. Podfeet.com is the best place to find me. I'm Podfeet everywhere. Darren Kitchin, where, now that you're back, you're back traipsing around the globe, where can people find you? Hack5.org as always, that's H-A-K, the number five. And we've got a big event coming up on the 20th of October in San Francisco. So if you're interested in any of that Hack5 gear, check it out. We'll find details on our social media. What's the event? It's the Hack5 gear event. What are you guys announcing? Packet some news. The Packet Squirrel, it's nuts. I like it already. Jeff just lit up like a Christmas tree after hearing that pun. I need one. Jeff, where can we find more of you? You can follow me on Twitter, I'm at Jeff Canada, which is spelled with two Ns and one T. I do a lot of shows. The one I'll just mention right now is a comedy science show that you might like. It's only 20 minutes. It's called We Have Concerns. You can find it at wehaveconcerns.com. It's a hilarious show. Very, very, very, very good. And of course you can find me just in our young on Twitter. I do too many podcasts. That's really my problem. I wanna thank everybody for coming out and producing this show here at the LA Podcast Festival. And thank you to the LA Podcast Festival itself for hosting us a reminder that our email address is feedback at dailytechnewshow.com. We're live Monday through Friday at 4.30 PM Easter time. That is, yeah, you can also find us at W radio and diamondclub.tv, our website is dailytechnewshow.com. Come back on Monday, but it'll be broadcasting from Old Blighty with Sarah Lane joining them online. Until next time, this is DTMS. Woo! This show is part of the Fraud Pants Network. Get more at FraudPants.com. Diamond Club, I hope you have enjoyed this program. That was fun. Thank you LA! Thank you Steve. No autographs. Thank you.