 Aloha, and welcome to Ehana Kako. We're here every week on the Think Tech Hawaii broadcast network. I'm Keelie Ikeena, president of the Grassroot Institute. Well, as you know, the Grassroot Institute is a public policy think tank. We work very hard to help propose what will bring about a better government, society, and economy. Well, that kind of work goes on all over the world. And one group that we're proud to be affiliated with is the Acton Institute, which is on the mainland for those of you who are here in Hawaii, and its reach is global. Today, I'm very pleased to have the director of the program for Acton Institute in Rome. And he's someone who's quite an expert on the Catholic Church, as well as free market thinking. Now, some people may wonder, how do the two go together? Well, this gentleman will let you know. Please welcome to the program today Kishore J Balin. Kishore, welcome. Aloha to you. Aloha. Now, tell me, in your beautiful Italian, what's the name of the institute you direct in Rome? Tutto Acton. Oh, that's how we say it. That's wonderful. Yes. Te piacere. Well, all I know how to say is ciao. Ciao, ciao, ciao. You can say ciao. There we go. Very good. But tell me a little bit about that, because it's part of a much broader movement across the world, the Acton Institute. It is. It is. We try to promote particularly economic freedom, but human freedom and responsibility within a religious framework. Now, you've said two things, economic freedom and religious framework. And sometimes people don't know how or whether those go together. Let's define our terms a little bit here. What do you and I mean when we talk about economic freedom? Well, economic freedom, let's say from a purely secular perspective, is the ability to produce and consume and invest and save and do all the kind of things with as minimal constraints as possible. Obviously respecting human rights, not killing or stealing, but being broadly able to invest and consume and produce, as I said, for the good of economic growth. So the government has a lesser role than it would in, let's say, Marxist government or socialist government, or even here in the United States. The government is not absent from a free market economy, but it doesn't interfere with supply and demand. Well, it tries to leave the market mechanism free to allow supply and demand to find a balance, because there is no one government authority or bureaucrat that has the requisite knowledge to be able to plan an economy. Now, our think tanks are affiliated with a group that publishes a report called The Economic Freedom of the World. And it measures the relative economic freedom throughout the entire world, from region to region. The reason I like it is because it takes economic freedom out of the theory world and talks about how it produces certain outcomes, social outcomes. Like, what kinds of things does economic freedom result in in a society? Well, economic growth, opportunity, allows people to improve their living standards, to escape from poverty is probably the most important thing. The Great Escape is the name of the book by the Angus Deaton, the Scottish Nobel Prize-winning economist. It's not so much that people... We shouldn't be asking why are people poor. We should be asking how people get out of poverty, because there are many people who are just born into poor circumstances. Kind of the way I paraphrase Confucius, a good society or good economy is where the rich get richer and the poor get richer. Sure, sure. I mean, we've always had rich and poor, and we always will. So, I think in some regards, the critics of the market economy, they say that there's as rich and poor and a big gap between them. Well, name me a society that doesn't have rich and poor. They don't exist. This takes me to the other term you used, religion. And when I think of religion, I think of Jesus, especially in the Catholic tradition. Jesus who said, when I was hungry, you gave me to eat. When I was naked, you clothed me. When I was in prison, you visited me. And these, in some ways, would be outcomes of a free-market society. Well, they should be. Jesus addresses that question to his disciples. You, right? We can say perhaps singular or maybe plural, but he does not say, Caesar fed me. Or he doesn't go to Pilate saying, why didn't you feed me? The federal government of Caesar. Not along the federal government, yes. But no, it was very much an individual call. Now, of course, Christians can come together as they do in the Acts of the Apostles to care for widows and for orphans, to make sure that people have enough. And certainly, we can admit that the state does have some responsibility, a type of safety net, but in no way should it be providing for all of our needs, and in no way should it replace fathers, husbands, or God himself, which unfortunately in many welfare state schemes starting with Bismarck in Germany. That's right. That was the point, was to replace patriarchal societies and ultimately God in the name of the state's inequality. And this has disastrous consequences. Well, apparently, from what you're saying, there's a lot of overlap between free-market ideology and religious theology. But your institute really helps to focus on the intersection of free-market thinking and religious faith. Explain how those two come together and what that fusion brings. Sure. We start with the human person, because that is the subject of both economics and religion. Whether you're a secular economist, or whether you are a religious indoctriner, you start with the human being. Right. And who is this human person we're referring to? So many times in many Acton programs, our first lecture is on Christian anthropology. What does Christianity say about human beings? Who are they? First of all, we know from scripture that they're made in the image and likeness of God. There's something divine that is reflected in human nature that the rest of creation does not have. All of creation is the result of God's omnipotence and his creation, per se. But human beings are singled out and reflect something special. Do you think that the founding fathers of the United States had that in mind in the Declaration of Independence when they said that all men are created equal, they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights? No question. And it's a way to limit governmental authority, the authority of one individual over another. There are certain things you cannot do to other people. In other words, the state is not supreme. It's circumscribed, yes. There is a higher power above the state, which has a standard to which it must hold itself accountable. If you think about the spiritual authority of any religious leader, let alone the Catholic Church and the Pope, they've always been able to cooperate with temporal leaders and kings and governments. But when they need to be called to account, there is a higher authority. There is somebody that you can say, you are doing things wrongly, just because your signature happens to be beneath the law, does not make the law just. There's a higher standard of justice. Your institute in Rome has broad outreach. Do you also consider the venue of Italy, your domain in terms of your policy? To a last degree, trying to fix Italian politics would be a gargantuan task. It's hard enough. Our main focus in Rome is to focus on religious leaders in Rome, both current, of which there are some prominent ones in Rome, and future ones. So just if I could finish. Yes. The future religious leaders in Rome, there are 15,000 students at the Pontifical Universities, and these come from all over the world. They're seminarians, they're priests, they're lay people. So strategically, it makes sense for us to have a center in Rome where many of the world's bishops have studied during their careers. And so the future generation of bishops are currently studying in Rome. And if we want to introduce economic thinking into their formation, Rome is the place to be rather than us going to every single country and trying to find out who should we be talking to and which universities and seminaries we need to be involved with. We can do all that from Rome and really help the church at a universal level from the eternal city. Your mission then is obviously much more than preparing people to take care of churches and parishes. Right. You have a vision that impacts society. That's right. That's a common misunderstanding. Many people when they hear about religious leaders being educated in economics, they think we mean teaching them accounting skills, how to balance the church books, which is a great thing. People should be doing that. There are programs in Rome starting up now. I hope as a result of our emphasis on economics. But we speak much more at the level of principle, of Catholic social teaching, of ways incorporating economic liberty, the good of free markets, with a healthy and vibrant and just society. For a moment, could you speak to the relative influence that these bishops and training, these leaders in training have when they leave Rome and eventually rise in their careers? What kind of influence do they have in their respective home countries? Well, Catholic bishops have quite a bit of responsibility. As a bishop, a person is in charge of a diocese. And he is almost like the pope for that diocese. He is the absolute authority. What he says goes for that diocese. With due regard for canon law and for all kinds of other Catholic, I don't say restrictions, but Catholic teachings are what the faith is. Now, bishops, and the pope himself is a bishop, are looked at as passing on the Catholic faith from one generation to the next. So they're not looked at as kind of authoritarian rulers who can do whatever they want. They are there, just as Jesus gave Peter the keys to his kingdom. They are there to be caretakers for the church and promote all kinds of faith exercises, get people to be holier. The ultimate goal is to get people to be saints. This is what we want to do. Now, this is quite interesting because you've really been talking about economic transformation and empowerment in terms of the mission you're helping to equip or the mission of equipping these leaders in Rome. But then you talk about sainthood as well. I mean, saints in the marketplace. What would the marketplace look like if everybody really cared about eternal life and really had a high moral standard for their behavior? Obviously, then you believe that theology has something to offer to the marketplace. Well, what precisely is that? Well, let's go back to what I said about the human person. If we start with the subject of the human person and this human person who can express his liberty in all kinds of ways, not just in economics, but when it comes to his speech, his political choices, his religious choices, there is something about the way human beings are made and are structured by nature, which has a certain amount of freedom that wants to break out and doesn't like to be told what to do. You see this with children. A two-year-old child does not like to be told what to do. He rebels in a certain way, even though his parent knows what's best for him. He has to let the child learn for himself to make mistakes and to learn from them. Otherwise, there's no growth, there's no education. In the same way, if we can apply that at a much larger level today, God has left us free. The main point of our existence is to know and love God himself, but he also leaves us free. We can choose not to love God. We can choose not to follow the right path, but he always calls us back home. As Pope Francis just concluded the year of mercy in Rome yesterday, the doors of mercy are always open in the Catholic Church, even though if the Jubilee year just closed them in many Catholic churches around the world, the path is always there. God is a loving Father who wants the best for us, here and now, as well as in eternity. And how that is reflected in economic life, and most of us spend almost all of our working hours working in the marketplace, producing, buying, selling, consuming, investing. How does that moral vision of eternal life affect us in the marketplace? And these are the worlds we're trying to bring together. Yes. You talk about freedom, and yet for a good number of people, religion is not viewed as bringing freedom. In fact, it's viewed as bringing restriction. In the United States, for example, where the public expression of faith has become highly politicized, particularly for candidates and others running for office, who court the quote-unquote religious vote or the evangelical vote, some of the issues that are at the fore are championing quote-unquote family values, which would restrict the rights of gays, or fighting against abortion, or end-of-life issues, stem cell research. And so a lot of people see these as attempts to limit freedom in society. How do you respond to that in terms of the kind of freedom you're championing? Well, I'll refer to our namesake, Lord Acton himself, a 19th century English historian, a Catholic, power-corrupt and absolute power-tensor-corrupt and absolute power-corrupt. Thanks for correcting me on that. He also makes a distinction between liberty and license. That liberty is not simply the ability to do what we want, but the power to do what we ought, and it's that that ought part, that is often contentious. There's not a disagreement about the ought and the moral responsibility, but a human being cannot be truly if he's also not morally responsible. And to be held morally responsible you have to be free to make choices. You have to understand the consequences of your choices, and you have to be able to say I made the wrong decision. I was wrong. I was mistaken. And ask for forgiveness and try again. And again, anybody who spent any time around children knows that this is a very necessary aspect of character formation. People have to learn to make mistakes, they have to be free to express themselves, but that does not mean that everything somebody says is therefore right or just or good. Well we talk about what is the case versus what ought to be the case, and when we come back from a very brief break, I'm going to ask you about some comments that have been made by Pope Francis that are being covered by the news today in terms of the forgiveness of women for having committed abortions. Okay, very good. I'm going to tap into your keen theological knowledge with regard to that. My guest today is Kishore Jayabalan. He's with the Acton Institute in Rome, talking about a fascinating subject, the intersection of faith and free market. I'm Kili Iyakina with the Grassroot Institute. Don't go away, this is Think Tech Hawaii's Ehana Kako. Thank you Hawaii, Asia and Reveal. I am Johnson Choi the host. I'm looking forward to see you next month, December 15th, Thursday 11 o'clock, right here again. Aloha, I'm Kauai Lucas, host of Hawaii is my mainland here on Think Tech Hawaii every Friday at 3 p.m. We address issues and importance for those of us who live here on the most isolated land mass on the planet. Please come join me Fridays at 3 p.m. Mahalo. Hello, this is Martin de Speng. I want to get you get excited about my new show which is Humane Architecture for Hawaii and beyond. We're going to broadcast on Tuesdays 5 p.m. here on Think Tech Hawaii. Welcome back to the closing segment of Ehana Kako here on the Think Tech Hawaii broadcast network. Ehana Kako, that sounds like a venerable saying most of us here in Hawaii know. A Pule Kako. A Pule Kako is said at public functions all the time. It means a Pule, let's prayer, Kako together. Let's pray together. Well at the Grassroot Institute we also like to say Ehana Kako. Let's work together. Let's work together to build a better economy, government and society, because if we don't work together nothing can happen. Well today we're showing how faith and free markets actually work together and that's why my guest Kishore Jabal and it's so insightful because he makes a living out of showing how these two work together as the director of the Acton Institute in Rome. Well Kishore, you've been watching the news today and President Elect Trump got trumped in the news. But all across the United States people are talking about Pope Francis and what he has to say about the forgiveness of women who have had abortions. What exactly is Pope Francis saying? Well Pope Francis a year ago at the beginning of the year of mercy which is concluded yesterday. And during this year of mercy people can be forgiven of their sins. Well they can always be forgiven. All right. The new aspect during the year of mercy that the Pope wanted to impress upon us was that women who had incurred abortions were being told by the Pope that they could now ask for forgiveness and receive absolution for their sins directly from the priests they were confessing to whereas in some countries the priests would have to ask the bishop in order to absolve the sin. Oh so for the particular crime of abortion. I see so if you'll forgive me for the levity of this it's kind of clears away the bureaucracy so to speak. To some degree yes but not in the United States. In fact in the United States this may actually no change whatsoever because priests, confessors already had the authority to lift the inclement of excommunication that happens with abortion so there was actually no change in the United States whatsoever and I think what was probably more important was the rhetorical aspect of this. Pope Francis wanted to give the true impression of the church as being a welcoming forgiving mother rather than a scolding nagging one and to do that he had to say that the church is willing to welcome and embrace all human beings no matter how sinful no matter what they've done they can always come back to the church especially as baptized Catholics and even those who aren't are welcome to come and hear the good news of Jesus Christ proclaimed in the gospels and to know that the church is there for them. Well the Pope talks often about smelling like he wants his pastor to smell like the sheep that they are shepherds of not to be so far removed that they have no concern to be closer to the people and to be a true pastor requires smelling like the sheep that they're shepherds. Well there's no question about it this is a very positive statement in terms of the inclusiveness of the church and the church is being welcoming and certainly forgiving and extending the forgiveness of God but you know this take this issue case in point abortion it doesn't it raise the tension that there might be between traditional libertarian thinking which emphasizes the freedom of individual the autonomy of the individual versus religious morality because there would be some libertarians who'd argue that the state has no business and certainly institutions including the church they would go so far as to say have no right to impose any kind of moral approbation upon women because it is their right it is their freedom over their bodies and that's a sentiment that's very strong here in Hawaii what if some would say that this is not a liberal or libertarian move to have any value that restricts women's freedom sure or calls it a sin. Sure Haley that that's that's a very important point now nobody is trying to restrict anybody's freedom if the freedom is properly understood all right and freedom does not mean as I said there's a difference between liberty and license it's not the ability to do whatever I want I am not free morally speaking to punch you in the face or let alone kill you right now I would be held morally culpable for doing so that would not be a good use of my freedom I could do it but I ought not to morally speaking and the same way with when it comes to the issue of abortion now it's what it's much more let's say difficult because we're talking about human sexuality we're talking about the inequality between sexes only women can get pregnant men cannot women are free to do what they as they please with their bodies but they're not free to take innocent human life and this is the difference if somebody wants to get tattoos and piercings the church is not going to tell them that they are wrong to do so but when it comes to again the taken of it innocent human life and that is inside a pregnant woman is where the issue becomes a difficult one so if the premise is that an unborn child is a life yes the defense of that or protection of that life from being killed is a libertarian position I think it should the life and liberty of that individual I think it should be I don't know any libertarians who think that murder is okay that the taking of innocent human life is is allowed under the the guise of human liberty I do I have not yet to meet that libertarian and I think the case when it comes to the unborn human life starts at conception this is the church's position this I think this is also being shown by my science the more we can see what happens with with fetal development inside a woman's room sure the more we recognize that is a human being and we only call the unborn child of fetus when usually when we have the intention of terminating the pregnancy we nobody tells a expecting mother who tends to keep the child how was your fetus doing today they say how was your baby doing today so it's a matter of which terms we want to use to make ourselves feel better about our consequent actions well as you're no doubt fully aware there are those who would dispute that interpretation of science and those who philosophically would say that the unborn is not a child and there's some extremists professor Peter Singer at Princeton for example who says you can take a child back to the store a year after the child is born and I want to actually move beyond that and ask you what is the role of institutions or the place of institutions like the Catholic Church or other churches that take a strong moral stand on the proclamation of when life begins when when life ends do do they have a free right to exist in society the society need to ensure the freedom of these institutions well I I think so I think a free society ought to have religious freedom and the freedom of speech but let's say there are societies that do not have that freedom the church proclaims that freedom regardless it would not be fulfilling his divine mandate if it did not proclaim the gospel and all the moral consequences that go with the gospel which includes the I've just said before the protection of innocent human life and you know let's think about the contribution of Christianity to Western society and how that has spread to well beyond the West my parents come from India not a Western country not a Christian country but the influence of Christianity certainly felt there Christian is much more than a Western religion it's not an imperial religion it may have been used at certain times in places to further an imperial agenda and those things should be corrected those abuses should be corrected where they exist but at the same time if you think about something as basic as the education of girls prior to Christianity that did not exist girls were looked at as as the property of their fathers that could be married off to whoever their father wanted to that can that was their primary to serve the men of the family it was Christian that looked at the girl child as as a human being made an image of likeness of God and to be given the same opportunities and you would argue that education that is definitely a libertarian free market value the life and the liberty of any individual well I think a good free market libertarian should say that you know all the resources that we have should be should be allowed to prosper and to reach their full potential now if you have half the population that is told that they cannot receive the same kind of education I don't think that's that's a truly flourishing society but it takes that moral recognition of the inherent dignity and worth of every single human being as they're created in the image of likeness of God that that gives that moral force to the free market economy to a free society and to an equal society in many ways then institutions like the church preserve that philosophy of liberty and freedom now we've just finished a political season and the president elect Trump is working on his transition team you've noted some similarities you see between Pope Francis and President Trump in terms of populism you want to share a little bit sure I mean I was being a little bit provocative I think I think anybody can can tell you the differences the obvious differences between Pope Francis and President Trump one desires to be a humble pastor the other likes to speak about his business and other conquests in their in very proud man and very proud manner and there is an obvious distinction when it comes to matters like immigration there are differences between walls and bridges and those kind of things but at the same time and here's what I meant about the similarities between the populist paradox of them both men are elite leaders by definition who are running against elites who speak in the name of the people against the ruling classes against rigged systems against what they proceed to be corrupt institutions and are calling for a renewal of a certain type of populism in favor of the middle class or working classes or the poor however it is the forgotten of society and I think in that regard they're both very much on the same line especially against current economic global arrangements I don't think either them feel that global free trade has been beneficial to working class people to the people all over the world Trump's focus is much more on the United States of America where Francis is on the poor of the world but they still are very distrustful of this call it financial economic arrangements on Wall Street as you might want to call it that said do you see any conflict between Trump's and I say this in the casual sense protection of the American economy and the American worker and so forth and and the much broader global vision of the pope there there certainly could be now I think this is something where economics actually has something contribute to the argument if we have a zero-sum economy which every pre-modern economy was what I have and what makes me richer is necessarily going to make you poor and I think what the genius of the market economy and capitalism is that it creates a zero some economy a non-zero some economy excuse me where we're much more concerned with economic growth that the creation of wealth is something that benefits all of us even though I may benefit at a faster rate than you do we're still better off and this is the concept behind free trade and economic growth and I think it's quite easy in many ways capitalism has been the victim of its own success it's achieved so much in the last 200 plus years in terms of raising material living standards giving people more opportunities that we've become spoiled well we expect so much from the market economy that if we're not perfectly equal and perfectly wealthy we start to criticize the system and what we don't want to do is is killed that engine of economic growth and this is something that I I know president like Trump is in favor of and I think we're trying to get Pope Francis to see the good of economic growth he has called business a noble vocation a noble mission but I think as what happens many times with people without economic education they don't understand how that process works well those are some good insights and I thank you for being with us today and I think we've learned a lot Kishore J Balin the head of the Acton Institute in Rome has talked about the intersection of faith and the free market we'll see you again next week on a Hanukkah go on the think tech Hawaii broadcast network until then loa