 I'm calling to order tonight's meeting of the police civilian accountability board study committee. Doug if you can give the preamble that would be great. This meeting is being conducted pursuant to the recent legislation passed by the Commonwealth, which extends the ability of committees and commissions of the Commonwealth to meet online or remotely, rather than meeting in person. The same requirements as in previous meetings under emergency orders remain in place all the votes must be taken by roll call. We should note that this meeting is being recorded and transmitted over zoom that folks who want to participate can can do so, but should take care to make sure their screen name reflects who they are if folks don't want to identify themselves they don't have to the easiest way to do that is to use the calling feature, which you can find on the agenda. You can also find the agenda online at the town's website, which not only has information on how to access the meeting, but also as information on what the topics for the meeting are. That I think we should probably take a quick attendance check, just to confirm all the members who are participating. Would you like me to do that. Yeah, that would be great. Sanjay. Here. Michael. Here. Kathy. Rogers here yes. Sorry, Mona. Here. Carlos. Here. Bill. Here. Chief. Here. Elliott. Here. I believe that's Bob. Yes, it is. And he's here. Clarissa. Yes. And obviously, Laura. Yes, I'm here. And I will also note that I'm present as well. So I think that covers all the voting and non voting members. Okay. So thank you all for bearing with us as we deal with whatever technical issues we are having. We'll try to make sure that's clearer for the next meeting. The first thing on the agenda is to approve the prior minutes. Did everybody get the minutes that Sanjay sent of last. Okay. I'm going to share the data last meeting is June 3rd meeting. And I'm going to share them on the screen here. Can you guys see that now? Yeah. Okay. Did we have, did anybody have any corrections or things that I missed from last time around. Or from this meeting. I'll slowly scroll through here. But given the time we're at. I don't know if I won't spend too long. Can somebody just will somebody make a motion to approve the minutes. Motion to approve the June minutes as presented. I second. Doug, do you mind taking the vote? You bet. Laura. Yes. Sanjay. Yes. Michael. Yes. Kathy Rogers. Yes. Larissa. I'm staying. I was not present. I was not present. I was not present. Yes. Carlos. Yes. Elliot. Yes. Bob. Yes. Did I miss anybody who's a voting member? It's unanimous spot. Well, it's a unanimous vote with one. Abstention. Okay. Thank you. So we thought it would be a good idea to sort of just make it routine to check in whether anybody has any updates from their various constituencies they're representing. I was going to, I think I'm going to start with Carlos because I think when we talked last time. The, you hadn't met since our last meeting. So I wanted to give you the chance to check in with the diversity task group. Thank you. Yes. So. Let me start. I do have in front of me some notes and. You know, I would like to maybe submit some, some of these generic questions that were discussed, you know, to, to the committee, because it's not a matter of like, we're not going to answer any of these questions today. But I think there's like some items that, you know, that we should, you know, they were brought up by the community and that we should just go through that. And as we do the study, we just check to see if, like, you know, make sure that we address some of these over time. So I'm going to just tell you a few of the ones that maybe you want to comment on and share the spirit, but I will, I will submit in writing some of these. One of the first questions, suggestions that they were brought up by the diversity task group was the fact that, you know, there should be some effort maybe to have some education to, you know, to a community about what are the, the multiple levels of oversight that we already have, right? So just to say, Hey, what is it that we have? What is it that the federal government can do for us? What is the new state bill can do for us? And what is that already, you know, on the local level? What are, what are the things that are already in place? You know, is there, is there some quick document or something that we can just show? Like, Hey, this is, this is what it is. I don't know if it's a comprehensive, but a little bit of education would be, would be interesting. Another point that was brought up was the idea of safe space and safe space. I mean, it was kind of both, not only about the ultimate, you know, civilian review or if one is enacted, but it also in here and how it said that we should, there's a safe space for, you know, so that people can come over and just like, you know, be themselves and then be in this a place where, where they can talk, right? And, and they can do those, you know, do that in confidence. I'll just maybe do another one, which is a very interesting point that was brought up. It's about the, the current legislation that got passed at the state level where there is this idea of one of the options that can happen at the end is to desertify, right? Or not certify police officers, right? And that, that kind of was interesting about that. It's like, maybe that could be a very harsh penalty. And if it's like a harsh penalty, then how often is it going to be used? Right? So, so the whole idea is just like, you know, it's like, you know, maybe are there, you know, what are any other kind of like things that are like lowered the certification that can actually be a really deterrence, right? Because if it's, if it's only the certification, that's the ultimate thing. It's not going to, it's not going to be used that often. Then it's not a real deterrence, right? Another point somebody brought up was the, you know, that they would like to get an update about the use of body camps, you know, body cameras, you know, what is that, is there any plans for, for the use and how is it that this can, can help the process? But one of the main pieces and one of the themes that, that really we discuss at length is the idea of how is it that we can have an outreach to the community to make sure, right, that we can, that we, you know, as a body here can hear all the voices in town. So that, you know, they're represented, that we can kind of like answer the questions that, but people really want answers and that be able to understand and see the real problem of like, you know, people in Arlington, you know, maybe, you know, may have with this. And that's actually an overall, I know that we, that's even a gender item for today. So, so that is one of the main pieces that we were concerned about. Around with that, you know, similar to that, it's like, you know, well, what is it like the presence, for instance, of police officers at the meeting, how is it that, that, you know, correlates with the office space or, or, or, and I think that somebody brought up that, you know, Chief Flaherty, when somebody, you know, she's part of, you know, the rainbow commission, sometimes, you know, she, you know, doesn't go to some of the meetings just to provide, you know, a certain sense of space. Then there were some other pieces here that were kind of very interesting that, you know, somebody brought us like, you know, currently, you know, APD and Chief, they're really looking at policy issues very deeply. And, and then the, the idea is like, how I said that, you know, it can then be institutionalized. So that for the future, right, you know, when, you know, when the Chief now becomes, you know, a great Chief, my leave was to for a big APD or she retires, you know, so how I said that we can institutionalize this, this, this idea of like, you know, having some sort of a, for review or, you know, of policy. So that was kind of like resonated with some of the members. And the last point I just want to mention is, somebody brought up that the, you know, APD has really good training of the police officers. And that, that part maybe is not publicized. The community doesn't know the level of training that APD has. And that, you know, it's well beyond, I mean, so when somebody bring it up to say like, well beyond like many other police departments around, and that that is one of the things that the baby should be, should be better addressed. And that kind of resonate to one of the pieces that we've talked before about what a civilian review or advisory board may, may help in this communication in this, in this community outreach, you know, so this can be both ways, right? It can be a place where a review board, maybe, you know, have inputs about policy, but it's also that might have, may serve as a way to communication with, you know, with the community as at all. So I will send this in the, in writing, because there are many other points in here that I didn't mention right now, but that we should address, you know, time. And I don't know if anybody would like to, to make some comments or have further questions. Doug, did you, I, I feel like you're going to comment on what's, were you going to say something about what we can send an email or. No, I think that I think the best for that to go an email. Yeah, we're talking about it here at an open meeting. If Carlos wants to transmit the list of things that were forwarded to him or developed. I think that's fine. I also just wanted to comment that I thought I had transmitted this maybe I didn't. The summary, the PowerPoint presentation on the, on the justice equity. Accountability Act and law enforcement. Which covers things like the post has the ability to suspend demand retraining. You know, and do any number of intermediate things before you do that. You know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you talk about the certification. So that's something that I can transmit around. I'll send it off right now. And it's also something that in theory, we can post on the town's website. I'm glad to see that it got. That the committee is now sort of up and running on the town's website, but we still need to get some documents that have been used as reference uploaded there. So. Thank you. I see Clarissa. Thank you. I think that the training. Listing the training that the police officers. Get now is an excellent idea. Because recently in the Mugar Woods. There was an incident where. There was incredibly. An incident that resulted in no violence, but there was a homeless person. Who had a BB gun that looked like a rifle. And he pointed it at one of our police officers. Who had the training. To step back and. Really deal with. Obviously a man that had mental issues. And it was a wonderful example of our. Police force because. They really work hard at, at trying to understand. The mental illness component. So I think the more that we get that word out to the general public, the better. We will be doing a service to the community. Because I think. With the current national. Tenor. I think that people are more. Defensive about our police force. And we are doing a lot of work. So thank you. Great. Thank you. Did anybody else. Have an update from like Kathy. Did you have anything from the human rights commission? No. And I'm looking. Oh, Elliot. We sent an email to our principal, Dr. Janger. About. Like we were talking about last meeting, maybe having students input. Are like anonymous stuff. And he said an email that he, it sounded great. Obviously like we don't have any of the details yet. So it's kind of hard to plan stuff, but he said he agreed with it and could send a note out. Like when we have to. When we have some. Information about where people can provide that input. Yeah. Great. Thank you. I'm glad. I'm glad we have that. Thank you. Clarissa, were you. Jillian and I will, Jillie Elliott, Jillian. Jillian and I will help you with that. If that helps. I think it's a great idea. And I'm glad you've already reached out to principal Janger. And, you know, I think in the fall, that might be a really good idea. And if you and Mona want to reach out to me this summer and talk to me. We want to have. The students feel comfortable. That's the most important thing. And, you know, what kind of format would really. Help them be as honest as they could be. It would be just terrific. So please reach out to me and I'll help you organize it. And thank you for doing that extra work. This is a good segue. If nobody else has any updates to the next item on our agenda. If anybody else had any updates. Michael, anything. Okay. So the next item on the agenda is, oh, Doug. Is your, your hand is raised. Is that. Oh, I'm sorry. No, no, I meant, I should put it down. Okay. Okay. So the next item on our agenda is to talk about outreach. And we got to the, I think, you know, we were talking. At our last meeting about, we had a report from. Carlos killed us a little bit more. We talked about, we talked, we talked more about the different. Whoa. That's my laptop. We talked about, you know, we talked about, we talked about, you know, kind of review boards, review bodies. And what just, we're talking about how it makes. One thing we have to do is have community input and outreach. And given our timeline, we need to start that sooner or. Sooner rather than later. I had asked Karen Bishop. Cause she mentioned listening sessions. And she said, you know, I don't know how she's run them in the past. Unfortunately. She can't join us tonight. So I wanted to start a discussion about. Brainstorming ideas for outreach and talking about. Forums, whether, you know, sort of like Elliot was talking about. And timeline for that. And I, I talked to Doug earlier. We talked about, you know, you know, you know, you know, even what you have done that you might have some initial thoughts on how we. Start this process. Yeah. So it's a lot. Especially. If you're looking to get input from people, you don't already get input. Right. So that means being physical. And that's why I'm asking for help. Also things need to be translated. We need to figure out if we can have interpreters president. These met at these meetings to hear from people. So there's a lot. That goes into that. And that also takes some funding. So I don't know what this group has. If we have anything. So those are the types of things that need to be thought about before putting in place a date in a time, because having all of those back end logistics figured out, and then the date and the time in the place is what. Would come next, but. Also figuring out. Spaces, you know, having it in town hall, probably not ideal. You already have people who don't want to go there. It's not an inviting space. So figuring out places around town that are comfortable for people who don't want to discuss things, but also making sure that the folks in the room, I think it would make sense to have. A few individuals from this group, not everyone present. Because that's intimidating in itself. So just thinking about how to. Lay it out is where I think we need to start. Okay. That is a lot. Okay. Can I offer something in supplement? Yes, please. I don't want to step on. Jill's. Toes. Or. Or hands or anything. But I did note that one of the things, by the way, Clarissa and I did prepare if, if you guys want, we have time. Review of the audit model. Of civilian review. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what it's one, but I know that the major focus on this meeting is community outreach. But I want to note that one of the things that I looked at. Was a similar process. That's been happening in Somerville. That they have some preliminary reporting about. But also some different ways in which they. Garner community input that we've also talked about in terms of some of the things that we've talked about. And I think that's really valuable to speak to. Somebody over in Somerville. I think they have a legislative and policy analyst. For the city council. That might give you, give folks some perspective on. On what, what they did and, and maybe help save a little bit of, of time and energy in terms of. You know, where things successful. Where things not. You know, you know, you know, they might be willing to share that with us. I tried to find it, but it's not active anymore. So I just want to share that. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Um, that's really interesting. In terms of like, if we want to have smaller. What I think I'm still unclear about how we. You know, I think we need to, you know, we need to have this kind of meeting where we're all here. And it's a, like more of a formal open meeting. And I agree with what Jill has said. And it's certainly the feedback I've had from other community members that there's a lot. We need to do to make people feel. Welcome invited. If they show up to make them feel like they actually can talk about what we're going to do, what we're going to do. I just wanted to check in with you, Doug, about what, if anything, we have to be mindful of as we think about that process. Sure. So if you're all together or there's a quorum of you, you should assume that you're having. A meeting. Okay. You have the ability to. Have a forum that's not a meeting, but I generally think that again, if you can't have a meeting that's not a meeting. You can't have the. Substance among yourselves and basically share your perspectives, then it's just wise to post it and treat it like a meeting. That doesn't mean that you can't have. Members of this committee. You can't go, but first you can't have this committee develop a set of. that it wants to have and the way that it wants to engage the community and have representatives of this committee there in less than a quarter. It's not really a subcommittee so I'm not super worried about that because what you're really trying to do is send some folks out in perform some engagement in the various constituencies that many of you are well acquainted with as well as the constituencies of the town which are not well acquainted with. So I don't have a lot of concerns as long as we're not talking about a quorum of folks, and as long as you're clear on what's happening if you're going to have like a big event, and there's going to be seven of you there, then you should post it as a meeting almost as a redundancy. Sometimes that happens with our larger forums. And that's a good thing because it just increases transparency and accountability in the event that hey, you know, Elliott starts talking about, you know, an experience that he's had or a perspective that he shared just as a way of trying to get things going with some folks that you want to hear from. But he's giving a perspective and there's six of you there and then all of a sudden you've got an open meeting. So again, keep it under the quorum and I think you're in good shape. I have a tough time imagining that you're going to send out more than three or four members of the committee, if you're going to be engaged in sort of smaller group listening sessions Jill has that been pretty consistent with your engagement experience. Yeah, I mean I also, I don't have the issue because most of the stuff I'm doing I'm not doing it with commissions. I'm doing it by myself. I don't have that problem of open meeting because I'm not. It's just me. What, what about. So I assume the, I, maybe I'm wrong and we still brought up a point of like what it, what resources it takes us to like do we can do we have like through the town if we want to print a flyer if we want to have something translated. Like, is that available to us, Doug. I mean, what I would do is I would request it. You've got, you know, you're a committee of town meetings so you don't have an inherent source of funding. Right. I think we'd have to identify funds from one of a couple of different places. Some of them are going to be tighter than others the select board doesn't have a lot of discretionary funds. I think we probably look at health and human services to see if there are, you know, funds that are frankly probably set up for similar ideas for the Human Rights Commission or the rainbow commission. I would be hopeful that that folks would be generous and willing to, willing to share some of, of what we have available but it can translation translators in particular are probably your big expense. Okay. Laura, I actually, I do a lot of public meetings, as I work in the gateway cities, I have a wonderful translation. It's a small company in Boston that does our translations for us so when we get to that I can give you the contact information. Okay. It's really important, not only to have the translator there, but to have the messages go out in the different languages that we expect and figure out. I think maybe the public libraries would be a very good place because an after hours for the libraries. The summertime is really not a good time to get people to come out because they're, you know, they're having a lot of stuff with their family, but maybe starting the third week of September would be good. Again, you know, with Mona and Elliot trying to set up something in the high school, I agree with what Jill has said and what Doug has said, I think the smaller the group, the better. We don't want to be intimidating. The most important thing for us is to have people that are coming to see us be comfortable. So maybe we set up two or three listening sessions, see how it goes, then do a feedback on those listening sessions, and then come back to the committee and say, this worked or this did not work. But I think it's a very, you know, I've done this for, I'm afraid to say 40 years. And it's, you know, you have to listen. And it's active listening. So I think it's really something that we need to think about very carefully. I agree. Can I. So, I agree with, with a lot of what was just said, right, I want to sort of highlight for us our timeline here though, right, and make sure that we keep that in mind. As we're considering our options. Right. I think we talked at earlier meetings about the fact that, you know, really, we should expect to have. We should expect to be coming to some sort of agreement about what our major recommendations are going to be by November. Right. And that was something we had discussed at our earlier meetings. Right. Well, I do think that it is easier to get feedback, not in the summer. I don't think our timeline affords us the luxury of waiting for September. Sorry, Jillian has something to add to that. Sorry, I know I'm going ahead of you, Carlos, but I'm just going to say from the beginning, this expectation and timeline was not realistic at all. Like part of this when it went through, I don't think it was done correctly. I don't think if there's any way that this can be reassessed if we can figure out what's actually going to work for us and actually be helpful for the community. I think it would be better than trying to force it to have something by November because I don't think for my experience already the summer, you're going to have low turnout you're not going to hear from people. I'm already experiencing that with programs and things that people have asked me for, and they're not showing up so it's just going to be a waste of effort on our at on our end if if we're not timing it the right way and I don't think it should be rushed just to meet what was written. So that's just my two cents. Right. So, so then that what right what that means right is that we have to go to two town meeting next year asking for another year. Right. That that is what that would mean. And I I'll leave it at that. Yeah. Carlos had something to say. Yeah, so I I mean I I think that it's not a foregone conclusion that you know that the time lines don't want to work, because maybe in November we find something that's going to work. We don't know that yet. So we can start with with the negative in front of us, but how is it that we can give us a chance that by November we have something. And I think we need to basically multitask, and we say hey you know maybe to get the input that we need to get, we need to get it in September. That doesn't mean that us during the summer we can investigate all these different options that we have we go deeper into into the Massachusetts act how is it that that can help us we can go deeper into like you know how is it that we can have programs with with the police chief to to educate ourselves and get the community of all stuff so that all the stuff that we can start doing it. And then when we get the questions like oh maybe we'll already have the answer for some of those. And maybe we'll have maybe we'll recognize in November it's like oh my God we were way off. We're trying to try to solve this problem and really now that we have the people with the problem that we want to solve is a different one, we can discover that and then at that point say yes sure you know maybe we need a different year. But I think that there's a lot of stuff that we can keep going and starting and thinking or self and trying to reach out wherever it is around the summer and see what it is, but I agree with you send J that they wanted to be mindful that it's like. There's, there's a pace that we need to have to discover things, and but I think that we can multitask you know, we can dock and present to us to start we can ask people we can talk to some reveal people we can do all these different things. And maybe before we don't have all the questions because then we'll be prepared to answer the questions when they come out. So I think that you know we can still do it potentially. But maybe I'm just an optimist. No, I appreciate that awesome optimism Mike. Yeah. Jill, do you. Putting aside the timeline that we're sort of at the moment stuck with. I think even my opinion is, I'm like, I think everything you said makes total sense. I'm also really concerned about if we don't go back to town meeting with something concrete, or at least like, we've really made like some headway towards something like I'm worried we might not get another year. So part of what we need to do is, is start and guess what I'm asking. If we wanted to start doing something small over the summer. Do you have thoughts about what would be the most realistic, but if there's a constituency that is more responsive or, you know, a good place where we could start. Well, I guess my first question is, are you looking to do these things in person, or virtual or both, because that's also like, I'm basically starting at the beginning, I have not done a single thing in real life. Although this is also a learning curve for me. And so also finding people and outreach is something that's on my to do list for the summer, but I have not had the time or the capacity to even think about how to approach it, and that was supposed to happen last week, but that didn't happen. So, so I think, you know, knowing if you want to do a mix of in person or virtual that will help us but that's up to you all. But again, virtual limits some people in person limits some people so. And I don't know where it would be starting. I think finding out who we don't already hear from. That's a huge, I mean, this is, that's a problem. That's a problem. No one's got the solution yet. Can I can I make two suggestions. Yes. So one is, I think that we should do an assessment of what data may have already been gathered that we haven't yet reported on. We received the basic data from the Wellington Police Department about stops and complaints and all that kind of stuff and one of the big questions is, you know, what, what, what do we not know about people who might not be comfortable making those complaints from it. But we've obviously in a couple of different formats and forums collected some feedback in a couple of different capacities over the last couple of years. So, and I know that we, we did, or not we, I believe in vision Arlington sent out a survey that had some relevant questions that might inform this committee. I can't remember if we've already talked about this. I know that that hasn't been finalized yet or the results that aren't, aren't, haven't, haven't been put out yet but that might be something that would be helpful for understanding these gaps a little bit better. And there may be some other more substantive stuff that we can try to draw from the Human Rights Commission from other forums and meetings that we've had. Yes, I would just put out for the committee to think about is what do you want your public input to do. So, there's four or five depending on how you articulated basic models of civilian review, and they all have fairly cognizable set of features and issues. So to start, I think that what the sense I'm getting from most of you is that you could start from, you'd rather get input before you start making those choices about what you think fits better but the other option is is that you can sort of start to develop a picture of what you think makes sense and try to have community feedback that, that, you know, fits into the options that you think are more feasible in Arlington based on, you know, the input that you receive so far and what you know about them. Because if you have everything on the if you're starting from scratch. And you're gathering the widest net possible there's obviously advantages that but if you do some work. Now, and you focus on having more of your community engagement after you have a more focused set of proposals. That's one way to approach it. I'm not saying that it's the right way to approach it I guess I'm just saying that that that's one way that you might use the time that you have now. And focus your community engagement so that if you went to town meeting you said, we developed two or three options that we thought made sense for Arlington. We presented them for community engagement feedback. We answered questions. And the answer is, we don't feel like this is ready for prime time, because the community feedback told us that it wasn't. We need more time, but this is our report. These were our not recommendations but our ideas that we brought to the community are or you may get the, hey, these were our three options. The community feedback was that some combination of a and B is what seemed to people seem to respond to well and. And that's what we're recommending to tell me. And again, I'm cognizant of the fact that not everybody on this committee agrees on what the scope of the committee is and all that kind of stuff I'm just sort of offering one one way that you can work over the summer. Right. It's going to be very difficult. Thanks. Um, can I just to follow up on something you said Doug, or maybe my Michael's the person to ask about the Envision Arlington survey data, like, is that something we can have access to, you know, where is that. Where is Envision Arlington in, like, thinking about the data they've collected and when it can be public. I can find out for you I don't have the answer for you but I guess that's something I can share with the group. I mean, if I find out the answer to that question what's the way that I can share that I can share that with the group. I would share it in advance of a meeting as like an agenda item. You know, assuming that I just don't want to step on Envision Arlington's toes when Envision Arlington's ready to, you know, make the results of their survey known. I understand that this body doesn't dictate what they do and don't do so I'm respectful of that but I think you just put it as an agenda item and say, and advance this meeting I'm sharing this data. Okay. So what if we plan. I mean, I think that, but what Doug and Carlos are supposed saying is sort of similar and that we can be working on multiple things at a time, in which case, we need to figure out who's doing what. I don't know if. So we've heard from Carlos with about like the sort of policy type bodies maybe this would be a good time to hear to have Doug and Clarissa's presentation or. I think we need to get a little bit more concrete about what our plan is right. And I think, I think actually we've come to a pretty decent place in my, you know, I'm feeling good about what sort of Doug and Carlos have really sort of pointed us to, which is, you know, let's use the summer to really come up as a committee with policy recommendations based on, you know, research and whatever right. And then test those against community feedback in the in the fall. Right. And the other thing that I would say is, I think that it, it's worth attempting to do a first some sort of community something over the summer. Not because we're going to get not because we're going to get great response, because we're going to learn how to gather that community and community input by doing that, that one form over the summer. Right. In whatever small group or whatever. I think, you know, having developed the questions that we want to or prompts that we want to sort of give to people right and having that go out in the wild once, even if we don't get a lot of response right I think that will that could really help improve the quality of what we do in September. Yeah, I would agree testing the questions with a, even if we found a group just put a group together people who are advocates and that are the usual suspects just to kick the tires I think that would be very helpful. Yeah. Sorry, if that's a, but does that sound like a decent way to head with that and I think that comes back to what Laura was saying about, Okay, now we need to probably actually assign some people to do both sides of that. And we, you know, yeah. So. No, I agree. I mean, I think to, I think you're right. It's like a soft opening. Yes. So I guess the first question is if we're going to do something like that, are we going to do it virtually or hybrid or in person. I'm biased. I'm done almost nothing in person yet. So. But that's just me. So I'll put that out there and other people can say different things. I think it's very important to do it in person. Personal connection is the most important thing about again, I'm an old lady, I've been doing this for a long time, and people respond to other humans. And I know zoom is a wonderful thing that we've had for a year and a half but we need to get on, get on with our lives and go and sit with people and have them talk to us and, and we need to listen. And Sanjay and Carlos I know you're comfortable with zoom. But I think this is an important issue and we really need to, you know, even if we sit in the libraries, all three libraries by ourselves, and have our points, and nobody turns up then we know that we have not succeeded. But I think the most important thing is to say we're here. We want to listen. We want you to be comfortable. And, you know, a lot of people don't have the technology that we have. I mean it took me to almost 20 minutes to get on this call so I think it's, it's important to think about who we're talking to. I think that I mean, whatever we do first, like we don't. I imagine that we don't do either thing exclusively I think it would be a mistake to not make use, you know, even if people agree that an in person meeting is important, and I don't disagree with that I'm just more concerned with how it works for most people right now and getting people to show up when they have to leave their houses, you know part of what's happened in town over the last 15 months is that we've gotten a lot more engagement, I think that's been my sort of anecdotal experience from attending meetings, virtually and town meeting virtually and all of that. But I think the question is, you know, we're not I don't think we're deciding one over the other we have to decide what are we going to do first. And what can we achieve first. And I don't know I think I lean towards doing something virtual just because I think, you know, there are still the pandemic, you know, as the parent of two small unvaccinated children, I'm, you know, hesitant to like go full force into thinking that people want to be in person, and will show up, especially in a time of year. We're getting people to show up at all is difficult. Michael. I think it's possible to do some kind of hybrid thing for, I mean, I think there are meetings where there are people in. There are people who are do meetings like this that there are people who are in front of people who are an audience and there are people who are on zoom and allows for both. Has anyone gone to anything like that. Carlos, did you. Yeah, so, I mean, maybe we should do both like that we don't have to be it's not the same have to be the same meeting right maybe maybe I think Michael to bring something interesting there because yes I think that that technology can be there. So maybe we should have two or three of falls that can go and visit some people in person, and then we should have a zoom one with three or four or five other people in there. So that you can reach different constituencies people that are not ready to go out there that they don't want us, you know, but then they want to talk and be here. And then some people that, you know, they're really tired of zoom or they don't even, you know, don't have the technology. And, and, but the main question I have and I don't know, Julian, like, what are the constituencies that we want to do what are we can we start formulating what are the groups that we want to reach out. Can we draw upon the people they know that the communities that we already know Michael you have a great idea maybe we just have like you know the usual suspects you know that one that can be hybrid or assume. Right. But how can we have at least one meeting which is like a real reach out there you know so I'm going to some place where you know we want to, but I don't know where you know so who can start coming out with that that list. I would say the list is a mix of things so contacting folks who are active in the religious interface community cultural groups. I would say go outside or use already established commissions to use their networks. I mean that's because I haven't been able to do the outreach I want to that's what I rely on right now. The social system, getting messages out that way. And then other local resources. So if you want to do something in person, you know, if we have a flyer, putting it in grocery stores putting it in Walgreens putting it in CVS places that people, everyone has to go to and using the library as well. But I would say the interface community is definitely the number one place to start. I guess part of I when I heard you talking, Jill, when you were talking earlier, I was. I thought what I heard you saying was that in terms of small groups, we would also want to do them in a like targeted way where we're meeting with like, I guess I'm trying to think of how we can bring spaces that are safe, or as safe as we're capable of making them. That seems sort of in conflict with like putting flyers in Walgreens and I don't know what the best. And that's what you need to decide if you want to have a large open forum that's a invited for everyone or have multiple sessions like you can do small targeted groups in addition to a large come everybody. Figuring that out like how many of these do you want to do it's it's a lot of work. So, is key and that's how you can start to target the different groups of folks and where you're going to post things. So it's I think that's a discussion here like, what's an idea of right, do you want to do two large groups and then focus on five small groups. So I don't know what everyone is right. Yeah, wants to do or has the capacity to do. And I'm thinking, additionally, other, like I'm thinking about the Human Rights Commission there. Monthly coffee chats like that's something that's simple it's a couple of hours that in person it was at a coffee shop or wherever outside. It's not on Zoom but very low turnout but also considering the timing because you need to think about people in their work schedules, right. Work schedules. And that's some of the complaints I do get in attendance because it's always at this time on this day and I don't have childcare, those types of things. I think that's a great suggestion. Why don't we do what Jill is suggesting and reach out to the faith community. Number one. I think that's a great idea. And then see how they want us to deal with them over the summer. And then again, you know, have a couple of sessions with them. And then in person or if they wanted on Zoom, we defer to them and then see how we're doing and, and in July and maybe in August. We go back to the Human Rights Commission and see what they want to do. And that will give us some two ideas of what, you know, what kind of forums we want to have in the future in the fall when we want to get more input. Does that make sense. Well, thank you. Thank you. I have no objection with that particular thing. I think honestly, right. I think it's, it's more important we identify who wants to take the lead on this part of it. And, and honestly, you know, for the first one, whatever they're most comfortable with whatever they have the connection to for the first one. Right. Do that, right. And then from there we can expand to making that outreach wider for the fall. So if we have, I'd like to figure out who's doing it, and then I think that can inform the next decision. Yeah, have we, are we deciding that we're working this summer or for the next few months on community input and putting content aside or are we do we see ourselves we're a pretty big group. I mean, you know, it's a good size number. Any interest in having part of the group move forward with, you know, identifying options, and then another group working more on the community outreach, which each person, you know, may go towards, you know, be more attracted to one of those two things that that speaks to his or her strengths. I think that that's, um, I think the, I think that's what we should do, you know, and I think that's sort of what Doug and Carlos were suggesting when they talked about like we can be, we can be working on multiple projects at once and you're right to divide that out in terms of what people strengths are makes sense. So is there anybody who wants to step up to try to organize out a first outreach, something. I mean, Clarissa is that something that you would want to do. I don't mind lead leading the session, but I'm really not a religious person. So I have no ties to the faith community I'm afraid to say, I'm a lapsed Catholic, and really an agnostic. So I don't mind leading the, the in session stuff but I'm not somebody who has those connections at all, I'm sorry. So, I'll say the opposite right, I've already taken on a chunk, no I've already taken on a chunk of the policy thing to report back to you all on so I don't think I have the bandwidth to lead that sort of thing, but I do have some faith connections that I could perhaps help you with right. So, so if you want to lead that's that part of it, I can give you a little bit of that. That would be great so Jane, I love that. So the goal would be to have something this summer yeah this summer in whatever format that whoever you talk whatever the work best. Yeah, to have several people from you know not too many like three of us. Yeah, three of us. I mean, I don't want Jane myself and anybody else who wants to be joined. I mean I think that we need to, and we need to take the burden off Jillian because she's a very busy woman. She ran one of the best Juneteenth celebrations I've ever been to on Saturday. There were too many speeches and not enough music. The speeches were all given by my friend so what can I say, but the music was beautiful. So we need to take the burden off her, and so Jay and I can work together and anybody else that wants to join us I would love to have. I think that Karen is I don't know in terms of which communities she's most interested in but she's definitely somebody who is interested in the outreach. Sure. So I'm happy to follow up with her. That would be great. When you do this. How do you open up with people to ask them questions as to how do you how do you define what you're looking at for them, or get them to talk about something. I've done, I've been doing these public meetings. My entire career. Firstly, you talk about what the charge of the committee is. And you say, we're here today to listen to your concerns. And then you basically are quiet. And you turn to people and say, you know, you came tonight to tell us what you think. And then you just listen and you take notes and, and you know, I think the personal connection is very important. Because if you're not there and I mean, you know, I am tired of zoom meetings but I love public meetings. And I think if you're sitting there with a person, they're much more apt to talk about their own experiences. I don't expect anybody that's been traumatized in any way to come to our first meetings. I think that that is, I think we're going to be talking to people that are advocates, and that's fine. We need to hear what they have to say, and what their concerns are I mean it's, this is a very important issue not just in Arlington, but in Massachusetts and all over the country. We need to listen because there are a lot of an awful lot of people that are very concerned, and we want to make our community be the best it can be. Okay, so I mean that sounds like a good first plan in terms of starting out some outreach. And like Clarissa Kathy also is saying that the Human Rights Commission has a list of the various faith communities that you provide to help get started there. Yeah, and I think Sanjay is connection because he already has it is where we start. And, you know, I know a lot of the thing I have a lot of religious friends, goodness. A lot of the people in this community are wonderful faith people. And so none of them are, you know, we just, we are a welcoming community we want to make keep it that way. So let's start with one. See how we do, and do it through Sanjay's connection and then reach out to the other faith communities. So in terms of the tan, the other work that we want to start pushing forward on what do can we do we have a goal or does anybody has had people thought about what the goal is as we collect this research do we want, you know to start drafting something that talks about what these different options are, even though we haven't. Without making a decision without coming to the conclusion. Does that make sense. Yeah, I see a couple. I see a few head nods. Yeah, but I think Michael has his hand. Yeah, I just a question. So, I think Doug identified there like three or four different kinds of models that are existing now. And so, is it just sort of laying out what those features are, and then say, and then kicking the tires, but when we come together just sort of getting clarity on what those are, or, and or whether we would want to do something different is that is that what the work is, is that the second piece. I think so. All right. And Carlos collected some information so and, and Doug you would have access to some of those other models that you could share. I would be happy I would be happy to work with someone or some group of people this summer, just looking at those models and just organizing the information, so that we have something to respond to. If that's what the work is, I'm just getting clarity about what we mean. I would be very interested in that work as well Michael. And I think the thing with that piece of the work is Catherine would be great to work with you. If that's what the work is. I don't know. I mean, I feel like a soldier that's just ready to be giving, you know, I want to, I want to do work. I want to get involved. I just need someone to give me a direction. Well, no, I just, I mean, there are leaders and then there are those that are followers or those that, you know, want to do the work, I'm going to kind of roll up your sleeve kind of girl and I just I want to, I want to do that I want to feel useful to this really important task. And if we came up with this fairly quickly, because it might just work. I think that, Doug, how could we share this information with the group so that, you know, I imagine the way I imagine this work might be is that if there are these three or four models, and we'd have to check with you about what those are, and and then just sort of break it down. That could be done. And, Kathy, maybe you and I could sort of break things out as a first cut, you know, in a month's time, or with someone, Carlos, I might just drawing you because you have a good mind for that. I would love to be, you know, partner with both of you and then when we can basically just get together to get, you know, the stuff that we have, we, you know, and we, you know, dissect all the staff, ask the questions and stuff, and then come back to the committee, hey, this is for a picture of all these pieces. Let's start figuring out what we're going to work on. Yeah, yeah, it gives us something, one question we have, and they'll be great. I think, so we sort of started that two meetings ago, and there was Carlos, Carlos's presentation, he gave us their Doug is ready to talk about auditing and monitor. Was that, was that right, Doug, auditing and monitoring? He gave us a terrific overview of some of these primary models, and then to my recollection, we assigned different folks models to sort of exploring greater depth. Right. Carlos, I know you already got started on a lot of the data and he and I talked about it and also talked about some of the regional things that are happening in some of our neighboring cities, in particular. I'm prepared to talk about audit auditing models along with Clarissa, whenever you guys want, whether it's tonight or some other night. I don't recall how we divided up the rest of the major models, I think it was in investigative audit and review, if I remember correctly, that your memory. And I have, I have investigative. Okay, sorry. And we've not sort of put all the materials side by side, we've heard a report, but we've not captured it on paper. So there's an important step about how do we put it side by side. Maybe we should list listen to a look at Doug's PowerPoint. Okay, because that's one of the, I mean, we have Carlos is a now look at Doug's and then. I mean, I think I don't think we're there to look at them side to side yet. But Doug has a really good presentation. I also just before we do, I think this might be a good time for that before the other thing, the other things we're going to talk about was that Jillian had talked about sort of trying to look at different method, different, not methods, ways of ways of sourcing complaints ways of sourcing complaints. And I volunteered to help but we haven't actually done that in large part because Jillian has too much work to do. So, maybe, maybe Jill, if we maybe you and I can have a conversation separately and I can just like pick. I have more time than you do so if like we can sort of you, I can pick your brain and try to do the more time consuming part of the work. I think the other thing that we that Doug has talked about before is sort of next to all of this is to look at what other towns that we have something in common with have done already so I think Doug you said like one of them would be Brookline. Is that right. That's correct so yeah. I'm not wedded to giving this presentation tonight but I do have a few notes in it that might be helpful for framing things. Okay. I'm not trying to push it I'm just letting you know that the way that I see it is, is that this body needs to sort of get an understanding and examine what are some of the common models. You don't have to use any of them. You could use a hybrid wall. You could come up with something entirely different and new. And then there's probably a set of eight to 10 common things that you have to make decisions about is this body going to be fully independent. Is this body going to have the subpoena power. Is this body going to make recommendations before or after the police department does any internal professional standards review. Is there something you want to do there. So, I think that the first step is, here's the models, everybody has gotten a chance to absorb a little bit of it. What models seem to make sense would fit in, given this community input that you also want to gather about, I think Carlos has put it well, where are the gaps, right, where are the gaps that we, what are people not feeling confident about with respect to community and relative to their police department. And then finally, you have to drill down on some of the very specific choices you have to make about, you know, if we've talked about an investigative model, that's your most expensive model you need professional staff to execute a model like that. You need to house that somewhere, you need to have an anticipation that you're going to be able to both fund and justify that expense, things like that. So, I think that I think that you guys are outlining a great sort of general outline. So I guess I was thinking, if in terms of trying to get people to take. I want, I do think if you're how, how much time do you need to give us your overview. I want to give a pretty short one, I can do it and I think 10 minutes, if, if everybody wants the short of quick and quick quick version of it, just for the purposes of informing folks and going a little light on some of the details. So I was, go ahead. Can I suggest that we set our, our summer meetings, right, because we have not done that or at least attempt to set the number and frequency, and then we can, right, then hopefully move to Doug's presentation Doug and Clarissa's presentation and have a fair amount of time for that. Sure. Is that reasonable to folks. Because I think we've covered what we're doing outreach wise at least for now. I would like to suggest just given the amount of stuff information we have to cover and, you know, the number of things that we want to get done here that we actually attempt to meet more than twice during the summer. And with the recognition that we may not get, you know, as long as we can get a quorum. And we may not get everybody just because that's the nature of summer anyway. But I, you know, I'd hate to see us lose steam. And so I would suggest either three or four meetings over the course of the summer, again with the recognition that not everybody's going to make all of them. Right. And that just puts us at this point. At like, if we did for me, if we tried to do four meetings before September, I'm looking at my calendar. That's about every two weeks. How do people feel about that. I mean, I'm fine with that. But I have a sad amount of summer plans. So, I mean, we can try maybe can we. I think that's a better way of like using the doodle, a doodle poll to try and like see if we can have a, if we can get, if we get, if we do it every two weeks to, if we'll get a quorum. Okay. So then we have, I mean, we have a bunch of people missing tonight. Yeah. Already that we don't know about. Yep. Okay. You can talk about scheduling. I'm sorry to interrupt. You can talk about scheduling among a quorum as much as you want. You can have emails that are just about scheduling as long as you're not talking about substantive matters. Okay, so is there objection to me attempting to schedule three or four meetings over the summer. I don't want to write. I don't want to go about doing that if people are like, no, you're crazy. So please speak now. Otherwise I will attempt to do that. Okay. Great. Before, just before. Bob had something, Bob had something. Oh, sorry. I look at my calendar and I say, yeah, that's no problem. But you know, things happen. And I wouldn't want to commit. And you rely on me being the last member of the quorum that you need. So I would. Yes, I could do anything, but. Yeah, we'll make sure we're not scheduling for a bear quorum, but, you know. Yep. Thank you. And just a quick question. So if the, in the summer is more about investigating questions, you know, doing research that we don't have to make a decision to vote on anything, then basically, I think it's going to be fine. And then, you know, when we have to make the decision, we need to make sure that, you know, but in September, we're all back in that's when we start, you know. I think this is what to my mind, right? This is about. Gathering information, right? Providing. You know, input and or help to Clarissa as she feels she may need it as she's starting to, you know, put the first community thing together. Right. And, and then, you know, having things ready to go for the fall. With you. Yeah. Remember, I'm just providing a little bit of input anyway. Yep. Great. Before I do want to hear from Doug, but before we do that, I just wanted to like just in terms of this isn't like set in stone but looking at what other topics are a part of this investigation that we don't have covered yet. If Doug is, you had said at some point you've got some collected information about other what other towns like us or somewhat comparable doing is that something how much could someone take that and like, would someone need to do further research what we're, or can we just ask you to talk to us about that. I can do any meeting this summer. Yeah, if you just wanted a memo summarizing what Cambridge book line. It's in the process of reviewing their own, their own process. What, what, what the new Boston, I actually have a piece of that in the presentation, if you want to. But what the new Boston office of police, I'm going to get wrong accountability and transparency looks like. There's not going to be a ton of, as I think Carlos found there's not a ton of directly comparable communities of this size, because most of the communities are going to have a police force that's significantly larger. Right. We're talking, you know, somewhere between 200 and right now if you're in New York City 30,000 police officers you have a very different scale. I don't, I think there's like Pittsfield and a few other smaller cities in Massachusetts, but Brook mines probably the closest and I don't think folks will find that. Well, I don't want to interject my opinion but I'll save that. Okay, so we will put that on a future agenda. So yeah, I would love to hear what you got what you and Clarissa had ready. You're muted. If I can share my screen. Yeah, I think I need to do I need to give you permission for that. Can someone remind me where I do that security. Did that work. Yep. Okay. Okay, so let me move this. I've got it on my computer, Clarissa, you know, I didn't really get a chance to like do a rehearsal but let's but just jump in wherever, wherever you want. Sorry, I'm just trying to, there we go. So Clarissa and I were asked to look at the audit or monitoring model of civilian advisory boards or civilian review boards. We sort of relabeled it the audit and performance evaluation model to try to capture the universe of these types of boards throughout the country. And I think it's a great affirmation of what a lot of folks have been talking about I think a common source that people are looking at is the National Association for civilian oversight of law enforcement. And one of the things they notice that oversight systems take a wide variety of forms and operate under a wide range of authorities, and that the oversight agencies mission should bear some relationship to the size of the police department the particular among those segments of the community that historically have been subject to over policing or bias based policing. So I think that's affirming for what a lot of folks here are trying to get at, for what we've been talking about with respect to the many good things that people have acknowledged tonight about our police department. And the reality that we're trying to find something that's a right fit for Arlington not just copy what somebody else is doing. Data and sources on some of the things we looked at are a little bit to be frank dated. The National Association of civilian oversight law enforcement is a great resource, but they're a lot of their data relies on the 2005 police assessment resource center. So just want to have that disclaimer that there's obviously been tremendous amount of activity with them last year and a half, with respect to updating and revising some of these different forms of civilian review. The citizen review of police approaches and implementation which the Department of Justice National Institute of Justice report did look at the Somerville draft the civilian oversight of police in Somerville preliminary analysis report. I personally disagree with some of the assessments of how they categorized some of these models I don't know how important that is, but I just want to note that that some of it's difficult because some of these examples don't fit perfectly with one another. Then I also looked at personally I looked at human rights watch because, while the data there is a little bit older as well. They talk about things like the St. Clair Commission in Boston, which, again, I think should just give everybody a frame of reference for how much work goes into these things and the hard work that all of you guys are doing I mean that that particular commission had a longer timeline, more resources, obviously a different circumstance and a larger police department and larger community to sort of interface with but I just wanted to these are some of the data and sources and. And again, some of this stuff is a little bit dated. There's basically four ish models of civilian review. I say ish because some of them sort of straddle the line between one or another some might break it down into five or six some might say it's only three, but I won't go into a lot of detail but there's the investigative or quality assurance model. So basically, you know where you have some sort of civilian investing civilian investigators and usually some kind of board that is going to go out independently receive and investigate complaints, make findings, interview police officers, all that kind of stuff. It's more of a specific focus on individual complaints. And then there's an appeal model to internal police investigations. So San Francisco, New York City Cincinnati, and one half of the new Boston office of police accountability and transparency is oriented towards that model. Then there's an appeal model, which is really complaints or complainants or sometimes police personnel appeal and internal police department finding or recommendation to some kind of civilian. It's going to be specifically focused on individual complaints. It always is going to have an after internal police investigations and the disciplinary decision. So this is kind of how Brooklyn work so Brooklyn basically has an internal affairs reaches a decision and chief clarity if you're familiar with with this please feel free to chime in. So basically Clarissa, of course, and then there's an appeal to their select board. If the determination is not basically satisfactory to the complaining. They have a different form of government, even though it looks very similar to ours they have a town administrator and a strong select board that makes hires and fires, which is different than ours are select board only really hires and fires a very limited range of folks really just the town manager at this point. The appeal model which is very very similar to some of these other models, and that's also focused on individual complaints, but after internal police investigations, and before the disciplinary decision is reached. This isn't a perfect fit but this is a Cambridge police review and advisory board kind of fits into this model Kansas City, Detroit. So basically there's this auditor and evaluative performance model, where the main goal of the auditor monitor paradigm is to investigate the processes by which internal investigations examine complaint report on the thoroughness and fairness of the processes in the police department in the public, and make policy recommendations. So this has a broader scope than really focusing on more individual investigation or review of specific incidents or complaints. It tends to also be parallel, or after police investigation internally is complete. So some examples of this or the depend the Denver office of the independent monitor, one half of the other half of the Boston police accountability and transparency office, Albuquerque, San Jose. And another example that I'll highlight at the end of this. So the auditor model. It does some of the following things. It does complain intake quality control so one of the things that auditors are concerned about is our complaints are complaints accessible, the people have the ability to file complaints do they have translation needs met, do they feel safe, can they feel like they can file complaint without retaliation. So they're focused on assessing the fairness and completeness of a complaint investigation so they're going to have access to the internal investigation files so that they can review and decide hey, we thought this was a good investigation. They're also going to have access to data collection analysis to examine trends and police data. So, look, we're getting a lot of excessive force complaints. What's going on here, we need to look further at this and figure out why this is happening, so that they can identify policy and practice concerns is there are other issues on supervision training, or the discipline that's being needed out that suggests that either the police department or other managing authorities aren't on top of what they need to be on top. They might offer alternative dispute resolution, which surprised me a little bit. And they do a lot of public reporting and commenting some of them have forums and things like that. Some of them make quarterly reports on this more annually. What does alternative dispute resolution mean. So that means like someone filed an internal affairs complaint. Rather than just having it result in discipline or not discipline. There might be an opportunity for civilian complainant to meet with an officer. Talk with them about the incident. I mean obviously this isn't. Oh, I see. Yeah, I understand. I understand every, every circumstances. No, and it's in, and it's also arbitration in a different way from the completely rigid enforcement of, of what we're talking about before but it allows a little more flexibility. Yeah, thank you. I understand what you're talking about now. So some things that the audit model does not generally do. It doesn't perform investigations. It doesn't advocate for individual complainants, except for things like access, right, like, I need to have and I want to file a complaint but I need translation services or, you know, I need, you know, a safe space to file a complaint something like that. It does not meet out discipline. Although it's important to note that almost none of these models do. We can talk about that some later point down the road on the investigative model after we've had a discussion about that model specifically, and it doesn't focus usually on individual outcomes. There are some exceptions but so the assets of the audit or performance evaluation basically how well professional standards is performing their job in a community like Arlington. They're basically filled. Well, there's a sort of gap that's filled about saying okay we feel like we've got some independent examination of the quality of disciplinary decisions. You're monitoring the efficacy of internal affairs or professional standards in Arlington. Are there findings recommendations. I'm sorry it looks like I left some out there. Clarissa, do you remember what that was? There were findings recommendations, you know, basically based on quality evidence and consistent with transgression or policy violation. Sorry. They also tend to focus on the complaint and investigative process. They might identify and address problems in the complaint filing process or options, as well as the investigative steps or procedures did the professional standards folks not talk to witnesses at the scene did they, you know, for too much credit to officer sort of recitation of events stuff like that. So we're going to well address any gaps in training that contributed to complaints and or policy violations those aren't the same thing sometimes there's a gap in training that can that that might lead to complaints but it doesn't necessarily mean that there's a policy violation committed, and we don't necessarily want complaints we even if it's not a policy violation. It's long term reform oriented. And it's going to identify where individual circumstances or data trends reveal training or policy needs and failures. I guess they already said this I'm sorry. Fairness and consistency disciplinary investigation outcomes, which you don't want is variation. Right. If two officers do the same thing, you shouldn't have wildly different investigations and discipline outcomes. You know, public reporting is something that's a strength of the auditing or performance evaluation model. This information and the auditing is supposed to be used to further transparency enhance community police dialogues and inspire confidence. I'm kind of moving kind of fast but I just know that we're short on time. Some of this models liabilities gaps that are unfilled. This is an advisory. Everybody's in nature. They're not usually case specific so if there's, you know, a specific incident, and people don't feel like there's a just outcome. The auditing model is not a model that's going to reverse a decision outcome and say, you know, you're supposed, you were supposed to reach this different decision, change this decision in this specific case. It's got a long term focus which can be great, but it's not necessarily meant to be based again on one specific incident. It's more oriented towards we're gathering data. We're looking at a body of work by professional standards, we're identifying strengths and weaknesses and the way a police department is doing its internal investigations and discipline. And then finally, it requires some expertise. It's not super easy. I mean, I don't want to say that this is necessarily a challenge in Arlington but it's not super easy. You've got to have some people that are sort of data savvy, who might be willing to look at data on the aggregate, who might have some ideas about how to what data points to collect from audited internal affairs cases. This is just a model case study from Tucson, Arizona. And the reason I think it's really interesting is that this actually isn't a body. It's a professional position, a police auditor and a civilian investigator, but there's not really a reason why it couldn't be a body. So this is basically their sort of Q&A about what is the IPA. So it's an external source to audit citizen complaint investigations conducted by the Tucson police. And the purpose is to determine if an investigation is complete, thorough, objective and fair. And it's supposed to be a resource regarding police actions and standards. So I mean, I think when you should file a complaint is pretty clear walks through how you should file a complaint. And then it talks about what happens. Well, the purpose of this particular body is again not to say that they're going to reverse an outcome of internal affairs. It's if you're not satisfied with the outcome, you should file a complaint. We should be examining this and determining whether we think we're getting quality internal affairs work or in Arlington we call professional standards out of our police department. What they say is doesn't my complaint make a difference citizen complaints assist the police department to identify problems with officers and department policies. And then they also sort of have an open invitation to engage in the community. Now, it's important to note this particular. So there's a copy of the complaint form. This particular body is paired with something called the police advisory review board in in Tucson, which is really which is really a version of the review model that I referenced earlier. So it's not a standalone thing. Obviously Tucson's a size city so they have more than one thing at once, but it's an interesting and very straightforward version of the audit or performance evaluation model. Now, another example, just to sort of close this out is the Boston police community ombudsman panel. And the reason I think this is still important is because Boston just did a pretty comprehensive evaluation of its own police review. And they decided to make some pretty significant reforms and create a civilian complaint review board that probably is a little bit more similar to New York City. But they kept the community ombudsman panel they renamed it and have it be one of the two arms of that new office. Essentially what it does is it's independent from Boston Police Department in its previous iteration at three civilians with qualifications for the review role pointed by the mayor. And it basically had a hybrid audit and appeal function. So they did accept appeals of internal investigations, whenever those internal investigations resulted in fine findings of unfounded exonerated or not sustained and they wanted to file an appeal. But they also conducted audits of a 10% sample of internal affairs cases. Not sure what's going on there. That's strange. All right, I'm sorry Chris, I think I lost one of the slides but again the sort of function there is to say, look, we're not just looking at individual appeals of a case where want to do a qualitative assessment to say how well and how confident we are, and they can make recommendations for changes to police department policy including how internal affairs conducts investigations and make larger recommendations. Now, I think it's fair to say that in Boston they found that this wasn't sufficient to, because the scope was just too narrow for what they feel like they need to do there. But this provides a good example and a basic summary of the audit, audit performance evaluation, sort of model of civilian review. Thank you Doug and one of the things that we should be doing in all of this is once we come up with a model that we think is what we want to go forward with is also put a price tag on it, because that will be one of the most determinant questions of town meeting from the finance committee and so I really thank Doug for all this hard work I think it's he's done a real real service for us and you know I look forward to you all that are going to do the policy stuff over the summer. Doug, can you. Are you able to share this with us. Oh yeah. He asked that in the chat. Yep. Okay. Let me do that right now. Thank you. Any questions they want to ask from Doug and Clarissa. Carlos. Yeah, thank you very much dog is really fantastic. So, just one, one point here is, and all this body is how, how do they get the authority to get the required information and data. Right from all this to do the audit, you know how what what kind of authority, you know, the body have to have to get, you know, that that information from completed investigations or from police data or for you know from all these policies how do they get that. Yeah, so, so most of these audit models have to have an ordinance or in our case of by law that establishes that they have the right to access certain information that might be confidential and not public otherwise. And you know there's some important things about confidentiality and all that kind of stuff, but that would that would go along. I mean the Human Rights Commission is familiar with a lot of the obligations that come along with something like that so that wouldn't be too difficult in the sense that you just have to codify that they have access to that information and you obviously want, you know, cooperation from the police department and and all that kind of stuff to be a sort of hallmark of what you're embodying here. I'm trying to figure out how to put this in the chat maybe folks have a better idea to do I think it's just a large file. So I can email it to everybody I'm sorry I don't. I prefer to be could email it Doug. That possible. Yep. I think that as the member of the Human Rights Commission that I understand we to have some bylaw about getting information, having the bylaw and having it work has been two different things. And so part of it is personnel issues, there's privacy issues and collective bargaining agreements there's that. So, whatever mode that we choose. I know I'm going to be taking particular interest in making sure that this entity can be effective by getting the information it needs and codifying that and making sure it's not big. Hardest things about. I had his hand up. I'm sorry. I had a separate point so let's continue on this point and then yep. I just think it's important to realize that we have police unions. And this is a subject that we haven't brought up before that poor Julie Flaherty has to deal with every day. And I think that the union overlay and this is something that we have to consider. Excuse me Sunday. I'm not at all. If there are more about this particular topic I'm happy to wait. So, I was going to ask, you had mentioned in the Tucson case that their auditor was it sounded like a single person a single staff position is was that a did I hear that correctly. Well, yeah, it's an office there. There are other models where it's like the community ombudsman panel. But in Tucson, it's a professional staff member. You know, again, I think some of it depends on, you know, we've talked about this a little bit in Boston, you've got a pretty large pool of folks to draw from. And we've got a pretty large pool of professionals to draw from too, but, but yeah, it's it varies from municipality. Yeah, but but I guess I was sort of saying I was surprised. Was that office like how many people were in that office in Tucson. Well, I'm not sure I could do a little bit more digging on that. Yeah. Yeah, right. I'm just trying to write for myself understand sort of the sense of scale, right for for other larger communities right what's the, what's the scale that other communities have so that we can be thinking about that. You know, when we adjust that scale to ourselves. Yeah, I mean, that's a good point I mean Cambridge has a different model but I pretty sure that they have like a position and a half for what they do. I know that I know that we're trying to reach out to them to see if they can provide us some insight on their, their process and their resources, but it's an important question. Yep. Okay. So, um, thank you again, I think we should adjourn in a minute, but I just to make sure we're clear on what our next steps are. We just have individual assignments Clarice is going to move forward with talking to members of the faith community with an introduction from Sunday. Jill and I are going to try to do some work on methods of complaint. And so just going to continue on his investing in investigating investigatory bodies. And we will try to meet with three or four times before September. Am I forgetting anything. Okay, can someone make a motion to adjourn. So moved. Second. I'm going to take, I'll take the vote Sunday. Yes. Carlos. Yes. Michael. Yes. Clarissa. Do I need a voice on this? Yes. Yes. Bob, who I almost called Joyce. Yes. Kathy. Yes. I think that's it for voting members. So we are now adjourned. Thank you all. Thank you.