 Okay, so thank you to Candice Rohitten, Alejandro Najira for that excellent conversation. Our next and final panel is titled Climate Change and Financing Adjusted Transition. Our moderator is Planetary Politics Director Hila Rasulayum. Hila runs at Planetary Politics a body of work we call Power Reimagined, which focuses on decarbonization and financing a just energy transition around the world. Hila was previously a Foreign Service Officer with USAID, where she had extensive experience working with multilateral institutions. She held positions such as the Director of Global Engagement on the National Security Council for a while, and she was the Director of the Office of Development Coordination at USAID. She is a lawyer by training, and she worked also as an investigator with the World Bank's Integrity Vice Presidency, going after corruption and bad actors in the World Bank system. So without further ado, I will turn it over to Hila. Thanks, Gordon, and welcome, everybody. We are so glad to have you join us for this all important conversation and discussion on the planetary climate crisis and the need to center historically marginalized frontline communities in climate policy and financing discussions. Like no other time in recent history, have those of us in the global north and wealthier nations face the ravages of the climate crisis in the way that we did this summer, the hottest summer recorded in history. But frontline communities, those communities that have been facing the impacts of the climate crisis be it through devastating floods, hurricanes, droughts, they've been telling us for a long time that while they are on the front lines right now, the crisis will come to us all. So as such, the discussions and policies that are drawn up need to center those voices and experiences to come up with solutions that will benefit the planet as a whole. So it gives me immense pleasure to introduce our incredibly illustrious panelists today. Next to me, we have Dr. Saeed Muhammad Ali, who is a non-resident scholar at the Middle East Institute, lecturer at the Advanced Academic Programs at Johns Hopkins. He has also done extensive consulting work with the United Nations Care International among other international bodies. He is a regular contributor to the Express Tribune, an affiliate of the New York Times in Pakistan. He has taught international affairs, international development and anthropology courses in Australia, Pakistan, and the United States. So welcome, Dr. Ali. And then we have Heather McTeer Tony. I'm very glad to introduce her. She is the executive director of the Beyond Petroleum Chemicals campaign. She is also the author of the book Before the Street Lights Come On, Black America's Urgent Call for Climate Solutions. She was also appointed by President Barack Obama within the EPA and has previously served as mayor at Greenville, Mississippi, one of the youngest mayors at 27. And I just learned in the green room they have a sister city in Liberia, and so that's always wonderful to see. And then on the screen here, we are very glad to have joined us at Camila Camilo. Camila is an activist out of Brazil. She's a social entrepreneur building bridges between large organizations and grassroots initiatives to develop open innovation projects, social responsibility strategies within the ESG agenda, and initiative focused on climate action. After five years of engagement with communities in the Amazon Rainforest as a volunteer on social projects, she founded the Creators Academy Brazil, a community of content creators who amplify the agenda of protecting Brazilian biomes. She's also a contributor to the Agarapé Institute, a think tank focused on public and digital security and climate governance. Also to the Angels of the City Association, which has been working with a homeless population, addiction issues, and restorative justice for 35 years. So with that, I would like to quickly just jump into some questions. I've learned a lot from my boss in terms of going off script, so I hope that you all will join me for that ride. So we'll begin this discussion with a little bit of scene setting to understand both the depth and the history of the climate crisis for these frontline communities, and then we can move to some pathways for solutions and hopefully identify some glimmers of hope. So I'll first turn to you, Heather. In your book Before the Street Lights Come On, you draw a clear line between the racist redlining policies, which continue to endure to this day. And African-Americans increased vulnerability to climate change and climate disasters. From your work, what are the most pressing climate-related challenges faced by frontline communities in the U.S., and how do those challenges intersect with issues of social justice and economic justice? Thank you so much for that question, and thank you all for being here. It's certainly an honor, and I'm excited that we're having this conversation in a moment that's so critical to both how we think about climate solutions in the future, and more importantly, how we engage people to be a part of that, because the conversation around just transition can't begin until we recognize that we have an unjust system. And that unjust system is what has put us in a position where we have communities, particularly communities of color, and African-American communities in the Southeast that have always existed in a space of being detrimentally and disproportionately impacted by climate and by large oil and gas and petrochemical facilities that have put themselves on the very footprint of plantations and of the enslaved system of the Southeast. So when you ask the question of what are these biggest challenges, they're all intersectional because we cannot silo these impacts to our communities. And the health impacts of people who live under a cloud of pollution, quite literally, are also a cumulative impact, because just as we are experiencing the health impacts of having distressed lungs, of seeing our children who have more impacts of asthma and have more experiences of these very real and present health issues, they also overlap with education. They also overlap with the ability to sustain infrastructure in our communities. They also overlap with the economic development ability in a community. So the same experience of someone who is from Greenville, Mississippi, or from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, or from Texas, who is not able to go to work because they've got kids at home that have had to go to the hospital because they've got an asthma attack. We all know sick people can't work. And so if you're at home and you've got sick days and all of these things, again, are continuing to bundle together, there's no reason for us to think that if we continue along that same strain that we can have a just transition to clean energy without addressing these injustices in the past. And I'm really excited to think about what those solutions can be and how we do that together. Well, and we talked about this a little bit just now, but, you know, there's the work that you're doing here in the US, but there are also opportunities to tie that to work that is being done globally, especially in the global south. So if you could share some of your experiences in trying to do that and where you see those opportunities bubbling up. There have always been connections between people across geopolitical borders. We've never been limited by what our governments are doing. I was sharing with you when I was mayor of Greenville, Mississippi. Our sister city was Greenville County in Liberia. And it was such an honor to know the history that people had between our communities, this little town in the Mississippi Delta that had connections overseas. But that continues to this day at Beyond Petrochemicals. We're very proud that we get to support frontline communities as they present themselves in the global plastic treaty. So we'll be going and supporting them in Nairobi, Kenya when they travel in November and watching how these frontline communities, fence line watch in Houston, Texas, Yvette Ariano or the Descendants Project in St. Paul, the Baptist parish in Louisiana, Dr. Joy and Joe Banner, watching how they are able to on an international stage, have deep conversation and share the stories and their real lived experience of what it means to live right underneath of these facilities. It bears such resemblance to the exact same experience of people who are living in other countries. And it's those stories that is really moving how our governments are deciding where and what we're going to do to reduce plastics. Globally, how plastic pollution should be addressed. And then what are the steps to ensure economic viability of our communities globally moving forward? It's the people's story that's moving this action. And I think that's when we put that emphasis and put economic development along with that, we really begin to see significant change for our future. Thank you. I mean, and this leads me to your background in this work, and especially in Pakistan, Dr. Ali, looking at global discourse on these topics, there have been conversations on how the transition to renewable energy has the potential for and is already leaving behind those in low income or emerging economies in particular, that these countries don't have adequate access to financing needed for the transition and that even so the shift to renewables could be detrimental to their human and economic development needs. But how do those who are in the seats of power take in that discourse? Is it being taken in? And if not, what opportunities are there for these communities to insert themselves? Well, I think that discourses, I do agree that I mean, there are we live in a world with unjust systems. And I think those discourses are not only not being, you know, dealt with adequately within the global south, but they are, you know, I mean, those discourses also generate largely from the global north as well. And, you know, I mean, there is something about these like asymmetrical. I mean, I know we've discussed the idea of international financial institutions earlier, but, you know, there is something about the market mechanism and it intersects with power, for instance, right, or deprivation. And it creates these asymmetries, right, which are not, you know, which are not unique, which are not rare. I mean, they happen frequently. I mean, they happen even in the global north. If one looks at the inequities, I mean, on paper, this may be the land of opportunity, but we know that social mobility and because of historical reasons and so many other factors that we don't see a level playing field. And similarly, I think in those parts of the world as well, you know, there are so in sin, for instance, with this whole idea of like carbon trading, there's, you know, there's the idea of investing in the mangroves, which seems like a great idea. But, you know, that investment, when it's done in this, you know, in this exclusionary sense, denies local indigenous communities, fisherfolk, you know, access to mangroves because they are initially saplings, you know, and they have to be looked after. So it creates, you know, further exclusion. And then alongside that exclusion, I mean, you have trawlers now deep sea fishing. So, so, you know, often in the solutions that one sees unfolding on the ground, there seems to be two steps forward, but also certainly one step back for sure. And I know that, you know, I have discussed, you know, the new resource curse that is, you know, being faced, especially in the move to renewables. So how do you see communities responding to this new resource curse, especially those marginalized communities in the global south? I think there's some level of agitation. But, you know, even in the politics, I mean, for Pakistan, for instance, I mean, the last prime minister sort of, you know, jumped on the bandwagon and rightly so of trying to do forestation, big, you know, the tree tsunami, he called it, and he got international attention as well. But that is also then happening alongside these urban industrial projects, which are quite detrimental. So trying to build a new, you know, create this new riverfront on the Ravi River in the city of Lahore, for instance, like this huge mega project was quite problematic for a variety of environmental reasons and the dispossession that it was going to cause for the local communities. So I think that they, you know, I mean, one can see some project based, you know, innovation, one can see people trying to be resilient in the way that people are because, I mean, we have a tendency to cope with the circumstances that we find ourselves in, but they don't, you know, I mean, one doesn't see enough leverage being exercised to be able to kind of push back on these ideas. So, you know, and as a consequence, we've seen food hikes co-exist and, in fact, being encouraged by things like, you know, the move towards biofuels. We've seen, you know, with cobalt, what's happening with the mining of cobalt in the DRC. We see now in Guyana like Exxon moving in and then Guyana because there's such a financial crunch has to, you know, is thinking of that as an opportunity to invest in resilience. I mean, we saw in the cops, you know, how there's all this emphasis on curbing emission, not emphasis on enough emphasis on mitigation, on loss and damage. I mean, that it's come out as a nice term, but one hasn't seen, you know, much action on it thus far. And with the new cop and where it's going to be, I mean, one wonders. I mean, I'd love to dig into that a little more in a bit, but I want to turn to Camila first. Camila, I hope you can hear us and see us in the room. But your work is driven by the recognition that the discussions around global climate policy making process have been very technical and quite frankly, just inaccessible. You have personally walked away from a cop convening, feeling disenchanted, undervalued and as a young person of color from the global self. Do you see meaningful pathways for representation and what is lacking in these spaces? Well, yeah, I saw. Actually, I was like feeling in my skin during my first call. I was there and I was like, I wasn't understanding the conversation and it wasn't for lack of education, but it wasn't because they chose to talk a language that isn't accessible for people like me. So I decided to ask the dumb questions during the session. And some of those folks there was like, Oh, this is room is not for you. Then I come back home and I think, OK, what is lacking is people like me earn a seat on the table because we are taking these trees. I was part of like one or two climate strikes during the call. But when we entered to the conference, I was like out of the conference. Like I was there like observing that without any right to really participate and be heard. And I think like what we can do, especially global North countries, they are really committed with to a just transition is create more social participation. So I think that we have to raise collective ambitions like people on the ground. They are experiencing and we have like a ton of methodologies to hear their experiences and stories and what they need. And also we have already the tools to measure how much money we need to address the solution. I've been heard a lot of discussions around mitigation. But now we need to face what is happening. Like we need to adapt. And like the global South countries, the developing economies. I felt that we are we had like this willing to contribute. But we need to to be invited for the decision making tables. I think many of initiatives led by you. They they are good to mobilize the society around the issues. But they are not providing too much solutions because we don't have the opportunity to work on the solutions together. So I think it's our it's our rule now. Create the spaces when we're like people like youth driven projects or through initiatives can be part of the like the big picture plan, you know. Yeah, thanks for that Camila and that begs the question, you know, will you be going to the next cop? Okay, probably I'm working on it. But but I'm confused about the next cop a little bit. Especially well after everything that is happening now. It's probably more that this cop, we will address different topics. Then they're like facing a lot of fears or we probably will talk more about. Food systems, which is important as well. But I mean, but some of the issues that we need to address now because we are far away from the 2030. Metrics and goals. So like if we're not discussing facing out fossil fuels and just transition. From the ground like. Okay, we can go to renewable like how the communities feel. When the equipment gets there. How their houses are like now. So yeah, like I think this cop is an opportunity for the global community to step up for a very serious conversation and get out of the probably. Corporate interest. Like we are not against people getting results. The first people need to be alive to get results after. There's certainly a lot of truth in that slightly shifting gears and a little bit. We laid the landscape a little bit in terms of like the direness of the situation. But as I was reading your book Heather, I enjoyed it thoroughly. It was funny. It was practical and it's always wonderful having things to read that give outline some concrete solutions. Your book laid to bear some of the racist policies that were put into place that marginalized black and brown communities in the US. But it offered solutions for the communities themselves, but for policymakers as well. Because I think, you know, so often we see the onus pushed on communities entirely. But one thing that you do know in your book is that when it comes to climate and environmental issues. While humanity is in the same store, we're not all on the same types of boats. Some are on yachts, some are not. So how do we get maybe if not a yacht, but maybe a catamaran. I don't think we're ever going to get to a place. Let me be clear that everybody is in the same type of situation because that's just our reality on this planet. And the analysis that I think the analogy that I make is yes, we always you hear this. We're all in the same storm together. We should row together. And I don't think that's quite true. We're all in the same storm, but we're not in the same kind of boat. And there are very privileged people in our world that are sailing on big, huge mega yachts. And they're able to weather a storm while some of us are in little rafts and inflatables and little row boats that are leaking. And when you think about that analogy, there is something we could do collectively though as we're in this storm together. If we have a sense of altruism, if we're really concerned about our fellow man and want to make it and survive. It makes a difference if there are any people who are water people and have this experience. It makes a difference when you have a big boat that's able to block the wave for that smaller boat. And so that they're not feeling the impact because that big boat can take on that impact in a way that would toss those smaller boats. And that's what I think we have to think about when we're talking about solutions from the perspective of our policymakers and our communities and really get into the realistic elements of what will it take to really stop and protect people from this crisis. And my role at Beyond Petrochemicals, it's very plain. We're looking to stop the expansion of over 120 petrochemical facilities in the United States of America. And when you ask yourself, well, what, why, what's a petrochemical? Petrochemical is just oil. So we're in this conference talking about what is a just transition. It's not a just transition to more oil. It should be a just transition to get out of oil and gas. Yet we have an industry that is beginning to tell people and convince them that you need more petrochemicals. You need more of plastic in order to survive the climate crisis. That's, again, just like the big yacht and the big mega boats telling the people in the small little tow boats. We're going to help you if we go way over here off to the side. That's not reality. Well, it's definitely not going to help us to solve a climate crisis. And just one more point, if you think about this too, with petrochemicals and really how we're thinking about reducing carbon emissions throughout all of these industries. Petrochemicals are responsible for roughly 10% of carbon emissions now and that's growing. So if you have an oil and gas industry that knows they're going to have to come out of what they're doing right now and go into something else. It is also a natural assessment to understand what that will mean for the emissions and as a result, what that continues to do for our climate crisis. And we can talk about, you know, a little bit later how and what the solutions are, particularly for communities of color. But I think it's important for us to set the stage and understand what these impacts are and how we're all feeling them. Now, I think that's an important point. This is a question for all of the panelists actually is the communications in the PR piece. I think research is showing now that the fossil fuel industry in recent years has made a strategic shift away from just outright climate denial. And is, you know, to more nuanced messaging and discourses on climate delay. And so they're using these communities and as we talk about just transition, as we talk about socioeconomic transition. The message that is going to these communities is that there's no room for you in the renewable space. You're going to be out of jobs. So this climate discourse, it's really just for the elite, but they don't really care about your day to day. How do you see, how do communities kind of, or the people who care about these issues push back on this narrative, especially in light of the money, the sheer power that is behind this discourse? So I don't know who wants to start with that, but Heather looks like you've got some thoughts. Oh, I think to tell the truth, we were looking at a Chevron, a Chevron ad that came out a few weeks ago promoting CCS carbon capture sequestration, particularly in the southeast and Louisiana area. And the first image that came up after you see the Chevron logo is a picture of a black woman and she's running and jogging. And it's like she's just happy, carefree, beautiful, gorgeous dark skinned woman with air pods and natural hair and a great outfit. And it just begs the question, what in the world does this have to do with protecting people and communities? What is this connection here? Immediately, personally, I felt it because I think black women are magical. But obviously Chevron too thinks that we can use an image that it is resonating and right now is very powerful in so many different spaces to make people feel either comfortable or that they need to take some type of action. And that's not the reality in that particular community. It's certainly not the reality for the people who are living in a space where they are inundated with oil and gas facilities, but these are the very same facilities that are not putting the jobs in their communities. There's a great piece that was done just this past week. It appeared on New Orleans Radio done by Floodlight News that highlighted the fact that with all of the oil and gas industries that are in these areas, the percentage of jobs that go to black and brown and indigenous people just pales in comparison to the percentage to white people who are not even from the same space. So they're giving this message that they're bringing jobs into a community for people that make up 70% of the working population, people of color, yet they have 19% of the high paying jobs. People who have the jobs, they're bringing from other places and then these same industries have the audacity to say it's because people are not qualified. So make it make sense to me. Why are you going to put a polluting industry into a place that you say is bringing jobs but you're at the same time saying that people are not qualified for the job so you have to bring somebody else in to do it and the people who are living there are getting sick and are poor and are dying and all of this is to say you're transitioning to something good. It doesn't make sense and people who live there know it. And I think the more that we're able to tell this message and elevate the voices of people, these are the folks that are going to a cop that need to be able to share and talk about this message because their experience is the same experience of our friends, our brothers and sisters that are in the global south. And while I think the industries often try to keep us siloed from one another, there is significant power in understanding that we have this shared experience, we need to talk about this shared experience and then we need to push and advocate for the solutions that will rectify this. Let's just call a thing a thing. No, and make sure the math math. Make sure the math math. Well, I mean, in a lot of this, and we've seen this growing up, you need to recycle, turn off your lights. A lot of the conversation and the responsibility has been placed on consumers. Whereas when you really look at the numbers, when you look at the emissions overall globally, it doesn't make a difference. I can have my plastic straws won't make a difference. How do you see this taking shape in the global south especially? And I think with India's G20 presidency this last year, India was in particular very much pushing that model of responsibility on consumers and that shifts the attention away from the actual emitters. Absolutely. I mean, an example I like to use in the classroom, I must have heard it somewhere myself as well, is like the conscientious consumer. And the conscientious consumer is basically exercising conscientiousness through the wallet. I mean, I can be a very nice person, but if I don't have the luxury of buying a dozen eggs for six dollars, then I just have to put up with those caged chicken and that's the way it is. And I think that this is, it hasn't quite got on into consumer markets in the global south where initially there's more brand consciousness and then more basic issues like food adulteration. But even if it does go, it has already penetrated there in other ways, so things like social entrepreneurship. I mean, it would be great if the whole world had social entrepreneurship and we didn't see the kind of exorbitant profit making that we do and perhaps this idea of balancing multiple bottom lines at the same time. But the way that big business will endorse, throw money at social entrepreneurship, what it's doing is it's making people who are at the bottom of the barrel clean up some of the mess to enable consumerism to exist as it does. So for instance, like things like I'm several, a few years ago, something like the plastic bank got attention and other models like kabarivala.com, et cetera, in India. And the idea is that you basically using economies of scale with scavengers essentially to capture waste plastic before it goes into the ocean and you monetize them where they get some cash or other kinds of goods for picking up people's plastic. So it's a nice little way of sidestepping this huge plastic problem which is created by these beverage companies. I mean, in another way, if you think of co-option, I mean think of feminism co-opted and seduced by these forces. Just because a woman becomes a chief financial officer for a sugary beverage drink doesn't do much for gender empowerment. But it's presented as this way of changing the world for the better. So I think these are the kinds of issues that are in India now as it's aspiring to become the factory of the world. There has been a lot of research coming out talking about the link between this kind of ultra nationalist government and big money, the Adhanis and whatnot. And I mean this is not only unique to India. I mean here in the U.S. or elsewhere, I mean it's a ploy used by populace where they deflect attention from the stagnation, from the frustration of the ordinary man by pitting him against the other. So it's not your frustration as a blue collar worker, either you infuse that with a sense of nationalistic pride or turn it into the fault of someone else in some other country or some migrant who's stolen your job. So I think these are and unfortunately in a town like this as well we still see finger pointing often. So I mean one thinks that there are enough of these discussions but when I go to think tanks and I walk with as well I don't see enough self reflection or reflexivity as the anthropologists call it. Like your own position, your positionality. So I think there's certainly much more room for that, I mean before we get to the positives. I mean if I may, it's such an important point that you're making because it's normalizing this crisis and normalizing things that in effect the industry wants us to normalize so that they can continue to do the bad things that are happening. So this idea of in the United States having a touchy feeling about waste pickers because they're picking up plastics and we're saying well why don't you just get rid of all the plastics and pitting people one against the other. And I think we should all be very careful about that. We should all be extremely careful about normalizing these things. We saw a report that came out about two weeks ago that showed this a Swedish scientist who had come up as an art installation this way to turn waste plastic into a flavored ice cream. Now yes your face is exactly like mine once at the time. Seriously this is what we're doing now. It really begs the question of how much and how far are people willing to go to normalize some of these issues that are detrimental to our health both physically and humanity but also as a planet. And so these are the things that I think we have to talk about. It begs the question where is the funding that really needs to come to communities to help us to come up with solutions. We talk about the solutions a little bit. But we have right now venture capitalists the amount of money that venture capitalists have put into minority communities to black and brown innovators and creators that are coming up with climate solutions. That's a two percent of all venture capitalists are funding black and brown inventors. That's a number that can change. That's a space where private equity and private business and dollars and investment can actually go to people who can create in the global south who can create in the language and spaces that they know and the people in the cultural that they know. And I think that's one of the things that we really need to look at in terms of creating shift in solutions. Well I think that's where I look. Can I too? Yeah please. Who is trying to come up with that solution? I have like my two cents on that. A few months ago I was in a room with like over 300 200 advertisers talking to them about regenerative communication. Because yes the industry they have like the bad products or something. But is the advertisement industry that is responsible for creating the desire for this over consumption behavior. So if we don't work on those that understand how the human minds work for the desire of a more sustainable way of living. We will continue with this blaming game to the individuals practices like putting in the individual side the responsibility for save the planet. But we need a systemic approach and this like invites corporate governments and everyone. But when it comes to message. I've been seeing especially here in Brazil for example so much of advertisers taking place of the technicians to decide ESG strategies. It's possible how this is happening now. When we have like for example I worked like last year in a project was a very special project around like circularity. And the company invest a certain like a certain amount of money and five times more on the campaign to tell the consumers what they do. So we know where the money is going. The money is going for campaigning green washing. OK we can go to the venture capital money but also the company has these big accounts of marketing to sell their reputation. When they kill it it was like part of these resources to improve the community's work and like working on the negative impact they are causing. I think this is one thing. The other side. If we if we do a better stakeholder map considering the ICLP IPLC indigenous people in local communities and understand that sometimes they are not prepared. Like they don't have a judicial structure. They don't have like an institution but they are doing the groundwork and is our role working how we can make them access resources resources that is necessary. We can create more modern and accessible ways to help them with their resources. And sometimes it's not like just money in their hands like sometimes is actually like giving them back their lands. I was an event last week and it was people talking about regeneration. A lot of very real people in the land that was indigenous land for like over a thousand years. But they buy everything and they are talking about a regeneration here. And I asked to them are you willing to giving them back you darling. We need we need to make room. I think what my my main solution is. Who is the people that can hold space for the hard conversations happening like and create some circles that we are working together that we will be working together until we get some solutions. Because we are like coming back to our rooms with the thoughts about the problem but we are not bringing solutions. Yeah I think this is what some of my thoughts around this. And I really think that the advertisement industry is a key to address especially the individual's behavior. Thanks and it is beyond the time for those hard conversations but I also want to give some time for our audience here and our online audience for some questions before we close out the session. Please Anne. Anne Florini Arizona State University and New America. I'd like to tie the discussion here back to our opening discussion because Bina asked what I thought was a really interesting question. To the president on the connection between climate and democracy and just as a little plug there will be an event on climate and democracy in this room on November 7th to which you are all invited. But I'm I wanted to tie it particularly Madame Mayor to your point about where's the money and why is it not coming. But of course right now there's 10 to billions of dollars coming out of the federal government 40 percent of which is supposed to go to the environmentally frontline communities. Under the Justice 40 initiative which is a result of extremely effective political organizing by people from those communities over the last several years. In the United States is there any evidence that that is potentially the beginnings of support to the communities that will both at the same time give them the resources that they need but also provide a focal point around which you can get rejuvenation of local democracy itself. And for the other panelists is there any evidence that the climate crisis can have positive impacts on bottom up democracy because it's forcing people to come together around a crisis. Or do we have democracy decay and the climate crisis reinforcing each other in a negative direction. So to answer your first question. Yes. The Justice 40 and funding that came from from Ira from the act that really allowed a lot of funding to go in these communities is absolutely having a tremendous impact already. Even though it had been and we're still experiencing challenges just to make sure that funding is getting out to community and is getting out to the right people. We certainly understand that the significant weight of EPA and DOE and the Department of Transportation and just the process of trying to do that has been extraordinary. And I have to applaud them on the efforts that they've gotten. We're just coming back from New Orleans Louisiana the HPC climate change consortium with over 400 people from government agencies and nonprofits and and students alike where these are groups that are also benefiting from the EPA Thrive grant. And this is how communities are coming together and having these conversations and bringing in people from all over the country to talk about the solutions that's happening in part because of. Additional funding that's coming through Justice 40 and we just left and I saw a whole station from NASA that was set up here again in this space that was directly addressing and having these conversations with students on a level that we've never thought of before. So that first answer is yes and we should all be empowered by that the same time we have to be very concerned because it is under attack right now. We have a representative representative Scalise who is one of the people who is up for a speaker of the House that's coming from a constituency based in Louisiana that is facing extreme environmental challenges. There's saltwater going up the Mississippi River we just talked about that and show the idea that we could be in a position with a federal government that is already. Right now an administration that is doing their darkness to be able to live up to the commitment of environmental justice as they stated when they began that's also fighting with a legislative body that doesn't like regulation. So these communities need your help they need your support they need this advocacy passing I was not enough you can't pass it and don't support the entities in the communities that need to continue to see it done. So you know I know there was a lot of celebration after we got that finish but there were folks that were saying OK now we need everybody to get down on the ground with us and keep pushing and keep fighting so that we can continue to have a flow of funding. And we can leverage it and we can talk about private investment and we can begin really having I think more a global impact that's the next level in the space where we are now. We have a very large question from our global online audience which is that more and more the world seems to be retreating back into camps or zones of influence which can only make global efforts to tackle problems like the climate crisis more difficult. Is there any way to reverse this trend or do we have to figure out ways to work within this new system of essentially great power competition. I think that there's certainly I mean there is local resistance you know there's agency there's solidarity. But it is David and Goliath and I think that that big cruise ship or yacht does need to come to the fore and I think in the geostrategic space what needs to happen and we've been trying to push this through different think tanks. You know the idea of China in the U.S. for instance right so I mean there was a time in the Nixon Nixon era where you know that rapprochement happened through Pakistan it you know it's a rollercoaster relationship. I'm you know I'm aware of that as well but there are possibilities in these you know countries to try and green CPAC for instance right for the U.S. and that would be the interesting possibilities there. I think now with the new cop I mean Saudi is China you know has been in discussion with Pakistan to set up a 10 billion dollar oil refinery right. So I mean this set you know while it's trying to transition itself you know there is this fear that a lot of this obsolete you know technology gets shipped off elsewhere. So I think those are kind of the concerns and also the opportunities where I mean you know and the possibility to leapfrog. I mean if that can happen but I mean of course it needs you know it needs resource commitment and it needs less acrimonious engagement for which they are also vested interests. I think we have one more question from our audience and then I think we'll have to close out the session. Hi I'm Emily I was one of Said Mohammed's previous students at American University. So my question is about activist movements like related to debt for climate exchanges from places like the World Bank and IMF. There are a lot of people from the global south that are calling for these larger international financing organizations to exchange or relieve debt. Because of the environmental degradation they have caused. So you kind of touched on this with the case of Guyana and they're sort of like because of their debt they're opening up more land for extraction from Exxon. You see this with industrial agriculture and Costa Rica and different parts of the world all over. And so I guess for all of the panelists when it comes to financing a just transition how do you see these kinds of debt cancellation actions. And that would be the most beneficial way to go about it. I think you have to look at a body of financing. There's not going to be one particular avenue and certainly as in I think we have to look at this with the eyes of a financing perspective. Because while there's relieving debt there's also making a profit. And so with every debt that's relieved that's either coming off of someone's books or it is now giving an opportunity to create profit. So really profit is the end game not just the debt relief. And when we think about that profit side of it and who is getting the profit and why and what is the purpose of it. Is it really driving us to a space where again we're getting into a fossil fuel economy and we're moving into a transition of renewable energy. I think that has to be a part of this debt relief conversation. For some countries and for some spaces absolutely because the debt relief allows them an opportunity to invest in some of the renewable options that they really are seeking to do. But in some spaces yes there's definitely a conflict. If the debt relief is associated with Exxon taking and getting rid of its old or refinery stuff and then giving it to a space in a country or an opportunity to not not update it or upgrade it. Then we have a bigger problem than what we started with in the first space. So I just think that there's a bit more to that question that doesn't only rely and relieving debt but must be married to the point of getting the profit. And profit into communities that have historically needed it but also are really looking to drive a renewable economy for themselves. So debt relief in the sense of multilateral debt which would be a tough sell for the lenders but the possibility of climate debt swaps. So channeling that relief I mean not so a minister can buy a Rolex but for useful stuff and all these historical reasons for it and social justice reasons for it. I know I said last question but I see that President Sterleaf has a question. Thank you. I don't really have a question but I want to make a statement and maybe that might inspire others to respond to that. Everyone knows that biodiversity is concentrated in the global south mainly in the form of forests, large forests. Forests have been used as a source of livelihood for communities. There have been a movement of trying to make sure that the preservation of forests are maintained in response to give some support for community development. Most times very primary support that will not do any transformation of those communities into self-independent, self-sufficient communities. We also have a question of many of our countries that rely on fossil fuel. That's how they create the domestic revenue to finance their own social goods to finance governance. And there's a lot of pressure now coming from partners that says we're going to cut off assistance unless you stop producing fossil fuels. The reliance then is on, well, we're going to get through the COP arrangements, there's going to be a flow. And we know that there have been so many meetings with the COP and the commitment to provide these level of financing to enable countries just has not come. The money has not come. And when it comes to forests, there's not a big, it's like the gold rush now, carbon credits. All the capitalists are, we are going to do carbon credits and that's we are going to enable you to get, well, carbon credit is not well known by the communities where the forests are, hardly known to by the governments. This is something new. And so that's going to be another area that's going to lead to corruption, to deals and to all those types of things. So maybe now we may have to, some of our countries in the global south decide that if the money isn't coming, we're going to be very clear about barter arrangements. We'll go back to the old days. You know, if you want me to stop doing fossil fuels, then give me a hydroelectric plant or give me a solar plant. Give me something that I know is substantive, is going to lead to financing things that will improve the lives of people. So climate change is real and the effects of it on many of our countries are very devastating. Unless we find a means to respond to those by providing a means whereby they can have this transformation to the means of getting the energy that they leave for the development, then we'll be talking about this and not really being able to get the effects of making a world as greener, a world as better. So I know that we are over time, but you know, if anybody wants to have a very quick one sentence reaction to that, but then we can move from there. Yes, and thank you. Ditto. All right. Thank you so much to our panelists. This has been a wonderful event. I want to thank you, Madam President, for joining us. Thank our panelists. And stay tuned. The conversation is still going on and you're invited. Thank you.