 Oh boy, this is a great episode. We actually interviewed one of our favorite people Jason Calipa Great great podcast, but what you're watching this for is to see what the giveaway is. Aren't you you greedy greedy people? All right, here's the giveaway maps performance free access to maps performance and you enter to win this the same way We have you enter to win the other giveaways that we do you leave a comment below in the first 24 hours That we drop this episode, but you have to also subscribe to this channel And you have to turn on your notifications if you leave a great comment But you don't do those other things you win nothing you get zero So do all of those things if we pick your comment will notify you and then you'll get free access to that incredible program One more thing before we start this episode We are this month taking maps anabolic combining it with the no BS six pack formula They fit perfectly together and we discounted the price tremendously So you can get access to both right now for $59 and 99 cents That's a huge savings huge discount if you're interested head over to maps october.com All right, here comes a show almost a year today when you were on the show Sal did a kind of a compilation of a bunch of gym owners that we respect in the space You were the representation for the CrossFit space. That's right Yeah, yeah, and we asked you because it was right at the beginning of the pandemic We were asking you about how you were going to pivot you were talking about how, you know Some of the employees that were just not working We're gonna have to furlough you were doing some things with Memberships where you are allowing people that we're gonna help support you that they would be able to credit that towards their next You were also in the middle of starting to pivot into some sort of a streaming service to try and compliment What's going on with cove it so where I really want to go is I want to pick up Kind of from there what has happened as far as your staffing are the same amount of gyms still open What happened with the streaming? Are you continuing on like catch us up to where you went from the beginning of coven? Oh man, that's a lot to unpack so cove it for our business has been detrimental in some ways and Phenomenal and others and I know that sounds weird, but a net positive or net negative From a revenue perspective net negative from a growth and potential I think definitely positive Oh interesting because I mean so take for example our Mountain View gym Revenue there was was very good. It got turned off and it didn't get turned on for 15 months later So when you know in revenue on a location that had you know Five six hundred active members at two hundred dollars a month gets turned to zero It's gonna take us a while to build that back up. So But the the long and short of it is over the last year We have been very very fortunate because of some pivots that we did we've been able to retain key talent We've been able to pay everybody on the team In some fashion more money than what they got the year before that was that was the goal So if you're a coach at our gyms, you're getting paid more than you were the year before like we Increased everybody's salaries or everybody's wages and the reason why I think we're able to do that is one is We got to we got to see who was really bought into the vision and what we wanted to do Which was great. They got to see that we were taking care of them We we continued to pay them and then we we pivoted to digital and we we had a few opportunities Come up from a corporate wellness perspective. So we did end up closing one location through COVID like permanently that was our one on Stevens Creek and That um, that was tough, right? But we made the best is we had to take our ego out of it and say hey What is gonna be best for our business to keep us sustainable and removing that location was what we need to do But we just opened a new location on on Friday in Pleasanton We just we took over an existing gym and now we're reopening it as our gym And so so we're kind of net zero there also throughout COVID We launched a license program, which we learned a lot about we launched it a little over a year ago We kind of cast a wider net learned that we probably should have consolidated and so There were one year annual licenses. We've now Kind of made the barrier to entry a little bit higher moving forward I think we made it a little bit too low in the beginning. So we launched the license. We rolled out a new virtual training app we expanded our Collective position, which is B2B tools for gym owners. We really tried to support them and And we opened a new location So there's been a lot going on and copper wellness we we open a new location with that as well Talk to me look how's the licensing work? What exactly is that for other gym owners to license like your programs? Or what are they getting in the licensing? Yeah, so our company NC fit was found here in the Bay Area in 2008 and We we have a few different verticals So vertical number one is we own brick and mortar gyms, which through COVID again has been very very difficult. So that's number one. We have Corporate wellness sites with a few different companies globally, which which again was really unique because What we were dealing with here in California is different than what we were dealing with in Malaysia or Thailand or Singapore where we have these locations. We were able to see what their governments were reacting like and then we have Digital products. We have an end consumer product, which is our app. It's called NC fit And we also have a gym owner app, which is programming and session planning so What the license model was was them utilizing our likeness in the beginning What we said was there was some turmoil that happened in CrossFit and Looking back on it. I wish things didn't go down the way they did but Some things happen with CrossFit and we had a lot of demand for people to align with the brand and move forward with And so we rolled out the license program to give them a company that they could feel like okay We're providing them monthly webinars. We're providing them business tools We're providing them all these different things. We rolled that out a year ago No, did you know that? Sorry, I want to stop you right there Because did you know that when you were doing the licensing because there was a lot of drama in CrossFit just about a Year ago or so and we talked about it on our show a little bit Did you have the foresight to know that that was happening and then the licensing deal was a brilliant pivot that Oh a lot of people are gonna be jumping ship from CrossFit And I'm gonna capture all that or were you already in the thick of it and that just played into your hand Yeah, so it was it was a little bit of timing so we had already known so we have these collective gyms We have a thousand gyms The only reason why I share that is because it's a large enough audience where it attracts certain people that want more So this audience they use our programs But they wanted more from us and so they were requesting it They said hey, we want to dive deeper with your brand and we didn't have a solution at the time Well when we had talked about it We started kind of incorporating some of this license model and then when everything happened in CrossFit It's sped up our timeline because these people in the collective were requesting to dive deeper with a brand If I could do it all over again, maybe we would have done it a little bit different But I'm glad that it happened because it taught us a lot about the license model We originally started out with the low beard entry was $2,000 It was low touch point kind of going to provide this variety of tools But let's open up to a wider audience as we pursue the license program. We realized maybe that's not what we want We want to have a little bit more control want a little bit more consistency So we created more Like we created better guidelines that people need to follow brand guidelines and we've reduced that down now to eight Formal license partners and everybody else just stuck with the collective position. I see okay So this is actually you're the perfect person to ask this because you had so many clubs and gyms in different areas you named Singapore Thailand Malaysia. You've got them obviously here in California and other places So during the pandemic governments acted very differently depending on where you were at least place different regulations and restrictions on health clubs differently depending on the areas Did you have two areas that really were Very different in how you had to you know fault what guidelines you had to follow and and what was the what were the challenges with that like in other words California versus Thailand or whatever what were the two big differences that you saw the biggest differences was the timing of everything So like let's just take China We have a location in a place called Shenzhen China and that's a corporate wellness site for us But we run it we operate it's it's our it's our gig that got shut down first Whereas then you started the trickle effects, right? And then you saw Malaysia and then we saw Philippines and then one company one country would reopen and the other one would close And so I think everybody acted similarly the problem was is that they're all on different timelines So like we would never know when we were opening reclosing reopening being outdoors doing this and that same thing happened in California I mean California was extremely restricting and we saw our collective or our license partners be able to open That was really frustrating to see that Jim's let's just say in Texas or Florida that we licensed our mark to you are able to be open and here in California We couldn't and so from a government perspective I think we saw a bunch of different ways it was handled California was probably the most restricting that I saw But the timeline made it the most difficult because it was hard for us to Get our grasp around what was happening because you had we had to be reactive every single time And that was the toughest part about owning Jim's here in California was that You you we were closed and they say okay Now you could be open outdoors and then all of a sudden it's like no actually just kidding You can't be you can't be open outdoors and we had just bought a new tent and we had just brought did and then it's like Okay, now you could be indoors with social distancing. Oh, you know what nope You can't be indoors and you go back outside. Well now I need to go rent a tent again And I think that in theory people were trying to make these decisions But they didn't actually take into account what impact that has on small business Because it is very difficult to run a business in the first place and now you're adding this this Characteristic that's completely outside my control that makes it even tougher Which market was the most challenging for you was it California? Yeah, for sure. Yeah Now did you take the biggest financial hit to in California? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah So now I should note though globally and license partner our financial implications weren't the same because those were a little bit Bigger corporate contracts that were that were treated slightly different right now We're dealing with the biggest challenge in California is rent. So if you had a location that had high rents There's a lot of conversation occurring right now between landlords and tenants about what is out? Mmm, and there's two different rules of thought here. So this is this is a Inc We'll see what happens, but the tenant says hey Per my lease. I'm I'm I get access to the building Right, that's that's what I sign a lease for mm-hmm the government mandated me to not be able to use it So I shouldn't oh rent for that time. That's that's the tenant position potentially mm-hmm the landlord is like hey you sign a lease You're on the hook. I still got to pay my mortgage right and so it's a very uh We'll see what so what are you seeing? Are you seeing anything or is there like negotiating that's happening where some some landlords or people? Are you having some that are being pricks and wanting to go all the way and then others like what are you? What are you seeing so from all the people in the industry that I talked to because I want to You know, there's there's there's something about I think at the end of the day Everybody's gonna have to take a haircut of some type somewhere. That's what I think will happen I you have three different types of landlords number one. They they they super feel Empathetic for the situation and they're just gonna forgive things or maybe push it to the end of the lease. Okay, cool There's another group. It's like hey, I get it. We need to settle up 5050 or Some type of can consideration and you have some we're like no like we're gonna go to court or whatever will happen They're based on everybody. I talked to there's like three different groups and From the legal exchanges that I've seen It's it's kind of up in the air Depending now Jason you have you exhibit a lot of the characteristics of Successful entrepreneur in the sense that even at the beginning of this conversation You have this very positive spin on Challenges and I think that's just the characteristic of successful business people. It's like you met with the challenge I can either be pissed off about it or I could figure out a direction to go I can't think and I want I would love to know from a personal Perspective because here you are your your job and your passion is getting people healthy and fit Oh, yeah, they're telling of all the businesses. They're telling to shut down They're hardest on gyms, which which actually help people improve their health then we see studies that show that The top risk factor for severe, you know symptoms of COVID Obesity and co-morbidities which fitness helps then we see a study comes out that shows that gyms We're not major vectors of transmission Probably because people don't work out when they don't feel good, which you know naturally will happen So you're met with all this Plus you're met with the fact that you're forced to shut down You can't help people even if they don't mind coming in and risking and you take the risk of helping them You can't do it. Like how did you handle this personally? Like how did you not throw your hands up and say fuck it? I'm done or just lose your mind Dude, I mean what you're talking about is highly emotional for me, right? I mean, I'll give you a really good example We are our business was asked to reshut down and I'm you see this business you've spent your life's work right I started this at a college when I was 21 and Your life's work something you've put your whole heart into and then something that's completely outside of control shuts down your business When you sign a lease you're never thinking like a governmental agency is gonna come and shut me down You think okay, I might not get enough members or whatever and I'll never forget the way I felt when When knew some reshut down businesses in December or whatnot and then he goes a French laundry that night My heart like I just sank because you just felt like man Pissed off a grip, but then he had to realize like hey man, like me being upset me being Frustrated at this situation. It's not gonna help anything nothing What is occurring is complete outside my control and what's in my control is pivoting the business the best I can supporting our members the best I can and Ultimately staying here and reopening so our members can have a place as an outlet But to say that I wasn't frustrated on that day and every other day when I saw liquor stores open and our gym had to be mandated to close Was it was it was it was very very difficult? But again, I just go back to this idea like what do I want to do about it? Like I had two options option a Say hey, I'm not gonna abide by any state and county laws must stay open. That's that's one You could you could go that way. Mm-hmm another one is you're gonna say, okay I'm gonna abide by sitting kind of laws and we chose as a business We drew a line in the sand and said hey, we're gonna abide by state and county laws Was that the right move I Think yes, I think as a whole it was it was because we took an unbiased position on it if we had chosen to take a biased position we said hey, we're gonna stay open but then where do you draw the line on that and This way we used a third party to dictate what we did, but it was very very difficult, especially personally Yeah, and I would imagine probably the biggest challenges when you finally, you know, you tuck your head down and you go alright We'll follow your rules and then they changed the rules. It seems like yeah every other month Yeah, and it's almost like okay. What the what am I supposed to do? I did what you said now. You're saying this and I'm still doing that and now you're saying this Like you know and for me, it's very fresh We all came from the gym industry and when I saw this it broke my heart now none of us own gyms but I've owned gyms and I couldn't imagine being put in that position and Seeing them change the rules every other week and it's like alright But what you know like what I do I went in the garage and I worked out what I do I I filmed videos to help our members. What did I do? I thought about hey What can I do to make a positive impact because look don't get me wrong? Did I have bad days? Of course But my family and I have been through some really tough things with my daughter getting leukemia and having overcome challenges And this was just another challenge and there's gonna be more in the future And so what am I gonna do right? What are you gonna do? You're gonna crumb up in a ball or you're gonna say okay. Hey, this is a this is a critical time What could we do to service our support our members and to make sure that we have a business to come back to and Continue to remind myself that and I had really good people around me who didn't allow me to go into that negative headspace Because you could so do it and play the victim, but playing the victim there just yes The way I handled what you're talking about is saying hey if I don't like the way they're handling this We need to get new leadership in place And so maybe that's something I need to pursue better in the future is that just the fact that they didn't take into consideration what would happen in these small businesses or even now with different types of mandates and whatnot the Least common and not the common denominator is like this coach at the gym Who's just trying to serve you know help their members and now they have to mandate masks and in and police who's wearing a mask And who's not that's very unfortunate that our leadership has put those people in that position So maybe we need to rethink that position. Yeah, so with with with what happened I was reading some statistics actually the other day and it showed that during this period of time obesity and Chronic health issues in general just spiked and this is predictable, right? People weren't moving stressed out. They're drinking more drinking more Yeah, did you have you noticed a rebound effect in other words when things start to reopen more people being like man I didn't realize how important Moving was but now that I've been forced to not move like I wanted like did you see that rebound effect? Did you feel that so there's there's a blessing a curse here So the the we have four brick and mortars here in the Bay Area and those are really good test cases And we are seeing them get back on track, but they're nowhere near where they were not not even close now Technically as of today, we still have mask mandates here in the Santa Clara County and other counties were in right? I think those are gonna be removed soon, which I think will help public perception Um, but man the feedback from our members like even I remember when we had outdoor Canopies right and like our business was taking even a further loss And I just remember walking in and just this woman just like she like she was practically like Pleading with me like we're not not pleading. She was like just so thankful almost like on her knees thankful that we we had this place for her that That this outlet a place where she can enhance her fitness that she had been just cooped up in her house And when you get those messages over and over for people it just inspires you to keep Building because you know that eventually they'll all be coming back And I think we're gonna have in the fitness space is like a roaring 20s like in about in the Bay Area in about three months I think that coming into the new year when public perception shifts a little bit more from COVID around this area I'm talking in California in particular Mask mandates are gone. I think coming into the new year We're gonna just see it just boom for like the next three to five years because people miss that sense of community Yeah, I like what you said with blessing and curse We we just did a podcast on the effects of exercise and fitness on On mild to moderate anxiety and depression a lot of people don't know. Yeah, that exercise is tremendously beneficial for mental and psychological well-being not just physical well-being is This something that people are realizing more now in terms of your members and maybe even yourself because I know initially when people Work out said all about changing the physical But now that they've gone through what kind of what's what's happened Are you're hearing more people say things like look, you know, I know I want to lose weight before but this I need this for my My best hour of my day. This is this is I am so excited to be here. I feel better when I leave. I mean, we have a Therapist that's in a psychologist who's in there and she's saying that her her patients have skyrocketed, right? Of course like a lot of these psychologist therapists have and People are using the gym as that best hour of their day there out there, especially if you're still working remotely Imagine if you have, you know, two parents are working remotely They're at their house their kids are you know in the house, especially during COVID this this gym is is an Is a place where they could just kind of let their mind be free listen to the coach and enhance their body It's I don't know. I think for that reason alone like our our gyms I feel like we're doing a positive thing for the community And I just can't wait for more and more people to come and experience it and we need to do a better job Continuously sharing the message to come in. So are you seeing that demand grow for coming back to the physical location? Versus being at home and kind of going through the streaming and I know you had to kind of provide that service for people Just because of you know circumstances, but because we Speculated initially of it like there might be some people that want to just stay home now indefinitely almost and not come back to the gym, but are you seeing kind of a shift there? I mean, it's a difficult It's a difficult so our numbers in the gym are not what they were pre-covid, right? So you can say okay, is it because they're gonna permanently stay home on digital fitness, whatever They build garage gyms or is it they're not ready yet or is it because their companies haven't opened up back up yet? So they're not community in to Google for examples. That's why they're not coming to our Mountain View gym I would say that I think the future looks like I Think people don't realize what they had until it's gone And they miss that culture that we created and now it's our responsibility to remind them of what that what that felt like Like when you come in like I don't know about you guys, but like, you know, I work out in my garage a lot I also work out at our gyms every single day I take class when you go into a class when you go to the gym Even with your with your boys at the gym if one of you is not having like a great day Not like but just not really feeling it buys a little bit beat up Whatever you start feeding off the energy in the room and all of a sudden like maybe one person isn't feeling it But everybody else is and then you start feeling it after that warm-up you're vibing at our gyms You see that like people just come in and they know as soon as they walk in the door Everything else is taking care of that whereas in the garage. It's not like that You can go into the garage You can be feeling kind of beat up and whatnot and you can have a really terrible workout just because you're uninspired You're not ready to rock but when you go into a place and you're surrounded by other people I think that happens, but I think what you'll see is a hybrid model moving forward I think you're gonna see people gonna work at at home Two or three days a week. Let's just say one or two days a week and they're gonna come in two or three days a week That's what I think I want to back you up. You you glossed over something that I Did you say that you have a therapist in your gym? We I mean like remember Oh, it's a member. Yeah, you offer that as a service or something Well, so I I used a sports therapist for a really long time and good friend of ours But no just as one of our members right because we have we have some really unique That's one of the best things about the gym by the way is you have people from all walks of life Oh my favorite. Yeah, my favorite thing. Yeah, we used to yeah We have we've had a lot of different people come to the gym I one of my favorite things about training people was I got to train Executives and doctors and therapists and teachers. Oh, yeah, you learn from them So what was this? Okay, so let's talk about this digital streaming? You know way of delivering fitness because it's although it's fitness It's very different than delivering fitness in person in brick and mortar What were some of the hurdles and challenges? Did you have some preconceptions that later on you're like, oh wait, it's actually different than that Like what was that process like I would imagine that's a steep learning curve Yeah, I mean ultimately we're trying to solve a problem. We're trying to help people, you know kind of What my whole theory is is like I want our business and see fit to represent a brand of fitness that Helps people never allow fitness to inhibit what they want to do or need to do in life That's really important to me Like I want to provide them the tools that if you need to go chase after your kid You can if you need to go get off the toilet, you can or if you want to go do a climb you can't and Providing that online is a lot different than providing that in person because in person you can create that conversation like we were talking about earlier Online we've obviously invested heavily into the app space. That's it. That's a that's a different piece But what we've had to figure out is how are people actually using the product and how do we provide the most value for them? And I think what we didn't do well enough and that we're working on now is what? How do we show them and track their results better in a way that resonates with them? That's not necessarily like a leaderboard and things like that. That's common in CrossFit for us It's how do we show them visibly that they're changing so those are things we're working on but I think what we've learned a lot through the digital space is that We tried to bring the experiences from in the gym to them digitally by having on-demand content from coaches that actually coach in the gym so like We are a brick-and-mortar business that also has an online. We are not just an online company I think for that we bring a different Culture to what we present online because it's more coach forward So the for example our follow-along workouts are done by coaches who actually coach class And so I think the members can appeal to it more because they know how to talk to the members just like they do in the gym So that's what we're trying to bring to the people. Yeah, now looking at it from the outside Uh, it started off as a necessity. Yep, but let's just pretend it's not a necessity, right? Do you still think it's a good idea? Do you still think that this is a good direction to go and it could grow? You guys beyond what you can normally grow with the brick-and-mortar. Yeah, I mean our goal since day one This is 2008 has always been to enhance people's life through fitness, right? We've been wanting to do that and more importantly, right like I said before Enabling them giving them the tools to be able to go do stuff outside the gym Which I think is even more important and we're not going to be for everybody and that's okay We're going to be for people want to put in the effort and want to work hard And the type of workouts we have are more functional in nature But this app is very important because the available market Is in direct alignment with what our core values are which is trying to get this to The people who are ready to hear it if we're just in our brick-and-mortars We're going to be limited by those spaces. What if you have someone in Missouri that we don't have a location at? I still want to be able to impact them Yeah, when you look at when you look at the total I don't know if you have this data or not be interesting to see Pre-covid the the total amount of lives that you are touching in in brick-and-mortar Versus now with the app combined Are you do you know if you're reaching the same more because obviously the brick-and-mortars? We've already discussed are significantly, you know lower and have been hurt because of everything like that But because you did the app and now you have a different reach Have you been able to track and see like the total amount of people you're touching? I think that we are touching more people But I want to do a better job in In in touching them if that makes sense like I think in our brick-and-mortars We would do a really good job of community events really trying to help people Improve their lifestyle because we have those coaches online there's it's a little bit more Surface level and we want to do a better job engaging with them further and that's on us And so to a total amount of people. I think it's more. Yeah Deeper level Is not quite there yet and that's what we're focused on right now when you look at nc fit and you compare it to Basic crossfit gyms or maybe other brands that are trying to do similar stuff to you What are you most proud of that you've created? I think for us. It's a practical application of this methodology So like if you think about like crossfit traditionally What we did is we've just pivoted it a little bit to be more in line with what people want Um, which is every day. I just want someone to come in have have fun. I need them to have fun If they're not having fun, they're not going to keep coming back in I want them to learn a little something new And ultimately I want them to get in a great workout. I think that's where nc fit thrives Is having professional coaches that allow you to have a great time and um now that sounds like a crossfit gym though How is that different? Tell me how that's different I think the biggest difference is the consistency that we provide across our locations So you might go to one crossfit gym and have a dramatically different experience than than ours So ours the consistency really matters. So you know when you go into one Facility of yours versus another one across the world. Yeah, they're all being trained the same way Same onboarding system same internship programs same daily session plans same daily videos They're watching to prepare for that class same execution It's like it's like walking into a Starbucks But allowing the barista to still have their own personality of course, right? But we are going to train them so so much that they're we're going to give them all the tools to provide The best class on the floor. You will not have these inconsistencies now. What is that? Why uh, you've limited your amount of like gyms that you've allowed to have like a licensing that deal with you So we learned that I think what happened was is that we brought a lot of people on the on the bus and They were all great issues somewhere more engaged than others and some wanted to What we found was that um, we needed them all to look similar Feel similar. Otherwise, what we'll have is these major inconsistencies So we we had to create better branding guidelines, which we didn't have before for licensed partners So when you walk into them, you're like, oh, okay This is an nc fit and when you watch the way the coach delivers the product the professionalism behind them That's that's what it should scream at you. And it's not to say that it's you know, look I love I love what cross has done cross what has changed the fitness industry For us so we had to be in control of our own destiny And brand a way that we had control over the product and That's that's been very important to us. How was that so different though and like crossfit gyms Is that because take me through that because I'm not that experience with going to a lot of different crossfit gyms If I go to one, let's say right down the street. That's a crossfit gym And then I drive an hour into the valley. What am I going to see that's so different? Well, you may not see anything that's different or you may see something vastly different Ultimately what crossfit is a license model So you're paying two three four thousand dollars to license the mark and you can use that mark in a variety of different ways After a coach receives their level one, they could open up a the buried entry is relatively low Which is a which is phenomenal. It created opportunities like for me, right? But then eventually You'll also have varying degrees of gyms. You'll have some that maybe Are ran more as a hobby you'll have others that are ran more as a business You'll have some with programming that maybe is what the gym owner likes, which is, you know Certain specific you'll have others that are ran differently. And so the inconsistencies It's good and bad. It allows the cream to rise to the top, which I think is really important It allows a gym owner to express what they want in their business But it also creates some like like we said some some branding inconsistencies now the strategy with this Take me through this. Do you have an ultimate vision? For a licensing Situation where you grow as big as CrossFit eventually with this or is this something you want to just limit To make sure that, you know, everything is super consistent. Yeah, no, we we want to limit this I mean, we we thought maybe a year or two ago like, oh, maybe we'll you know cast a wide net We learned very quickly. That wasn't the right move for us We we want to have a smaller group of owners a smaller group of gyms They're just doing it really really well and just expressing functional training In in in the best way we see possible now also means a variety from programs So we we won't just have a more gpp program, which is maybe a little bit more complex We'll have other things like a fundamental strength conditioning program And we'll have a variety of different classes offered on our schedule, which I think is important Some people don't want to snatch or rope climb and that's okay Okay, so you talked about some of the controversy that happened not the long ago With crossfit now you had diverged from the brand crossfit before that all happened Right. Yeah, like you had moved and kind of yeah Now when when all that went down and a lot of it centered around the founder, which was great glasman When all that went down were you shocked or was this something that you were like? You know kind of saw the writing on the wall a little bit So like look it's there is it is such a complex issue to talk about there is so much backstory on But we had we had We had rebranded from NorCal crossfit to NC fit to be more in control of our destiny and a variety of different things Especially from a corporal wellness perspective. That was important to us We couldn't be attached to something we didn't have control over and neither would they want to be attached to them They have no control over it's just business We we decided to unaffiliate meaning like not pay our affiliation fees When all this stuff was going down Looking back on it would I have handled things a little bit differently? I think so but I had spoken to greg I mean when I say countless I mean countless times Trying to share insight that there needs to be some level of consistency some basic business tools We could provide owners so that so that we could create At least a framework to build off of so you don't have these major inconsistencies When someone's utilizing the brand because it makes it very difficult for you so Greg was uh, you know didn't didn't really want those things and very libertarian. Yeah, he was very libertarian and he Yeah, he was I surprised at what happened. Um Yes and no, um He was who he was and he's unapologetic about that and for that reason alone I give him a lot of respect that he says what he wants to say and he doesn't care what anybody else thinks And that's his position as a privately held company could do whatever the hell he wants But as soon as it starts impacting our business, then it becomes our our challenge. Yeah, you know You you've been you had started with them so early that you saw the explosion and the rise and kind of now where it's at now is the public perception or even in within your space is the perception of The crossfit brand is it different as it changed is the is the energy and mood around it like It's not what it used to be and it's kind of going downhill. We got to kind of do our own thing Is this a growing belief in the space It's a great question. Um, first off, I think crossfits are a really huge boom between like 2010 11 and 2015 16. It's a huge boom explosion But what's really unique about crossfit is that it's three things. It's a fit it's a brand It's a methodology and it's a sport and that's really Unlike anything else I've ever heard of right. So when you think about like yoga like there's no trademark to that or pilates or Or jiu-jitsu right in crossfit, there is a trademark So they've trademarked the name but they've also kind of aligned it with the methodology So you could be on board with like the methodology of crossfit But maybe you're not on board with the brand of crossfit and that's that's that's challenging I don't from the future perspective. Eric Rosa took over crossfit about a year ago And I think that he's done some good things to to start working towards what I was talking about Which is creating some level of consistency specifically at the affiliate level He created an affiliate playbook and things like that. That's all I was talking to greg about was just like some Some kind of like concepts and ideas not necessarily rules, right? um I do think for some people I don't know. I'd ask you the same thing because I'm kind of in my own like uh, uh, I'm in my own the Own bubble own bubble, right? So like for me I do think that maybe it saw its peak And now it's kind of settled and and maybe you'll see A little bit of growth here and there but it's kind of settled. Do you think that? I don't know Yeah, it feels that way. I think they made their mark for sure I mean we talked about many times on the show the impact that they had on fitness in general I mean in fact earlier when you had me on your podcast I talked about managing, you know, 40,000 square foot big box gyms with one squat rack nobody squatted Crossfit single-handedly got people to barbell squat in deadlift and do some of these lifts that you know people just didn't do before and I think that's Uh, phenomenal. And yes, I do think it does feel like the brand has declined and who knows if it'll Rise back up. I definitely think it's declined or at least plateau, but I think the methodology lives on and I think that we're going to see more People doing what you've done, which is hey, I I appreciate a lot of things about it And I I can subscribe to the methodology and I'm going to take some of that And build my own brand and use it. So I think we're going to see That kind of to your point of kind of see a little like it's kind of plateaued and then see a little growth I think that's the reason why and I think as far as it Being a sport and it being a brand. I think those two things I think of are I think we've seen the heyday of that I think it it's kind of well, you see spin offs of the sport Oh, yeah, do you could you like list off a few of those because I know there's been a few I've seen on tv Well, like the grid league you can come on that. Yeah, so like there was grid league that didn't really work. That was uh That was that was that was Like the xfl dude These guys just try to go way too hot way too quick more You know, they like rented out Madison Square Garden is the first event. It's like, wow, I didn't even know that Yeah, um, but there's other events So for example the rogue invitation which which I'm actually doing what's called the legends event here at the end of the month Uh, that's an event that could have a lot of legs to it because rogue is a major equipment company Who could pay out big purses and they can get a return because it's a big marketing strategy for them Yes more but ultimately some of these other events. Um, the dubai fitness championship that one has major funding from Dubai But some of these other ones have gone under because ultimately It's all good and well to create an event But if there's no return on the investment eventually you can you can't support it and so How many events and what could you pay? And how many new athletes are coming to sport is something I think about a lot and the barrier to entry is massive So think about this for a second If you played baseball and you became a baseball athlete Maybe you spend what three hours a day two hours a day training your sport In college let's just say or even the pros how many hours a day do they train? I don't quite know right very skill specific Football whatever how many hours a day do they spend on their craft? I don't know the exact number, but I imagine it's somewhere between like three and four hours Maybe right it's good guess. Yeah for crossfit to be good at it And to break from like a regional level athlete to a professional level and actually get a top podium spot To then make real money from sponsors and events It requires so many hours a day because you can't just be good at strength training You need to be good at swimming running biking. You name it. And so you're spending Three hours in the morning on endurance events Midday doing another hour or two of strength events and at night working on gymnastic skills So so what happens is I wonder if the gap is going to get bigger and bigger and bigger for these athletes Where you have certain people have been able to make in the sport and they're thriving They're making good money, but they're professional athletes. That's all they do is train all day But how do you break into that group is the tough part because you can't really have a full-time job and break into that gap No, you know, you mentioned earlier Dubai and I've heard a lot of things about the Middle East and fitness Bodybuilding is getting big over there Submission wrestling and jiu-jitsu is getting big over there You're talking about, you know fitness type events What more and you're in so many different markets in the world What markets should we keep an eye on obviously california the mecca all that stuff. We know that But what about worldwide? Where are you most excited to see? You know what's happening? There's a lot of talk about china for crossfit in particular I think i think europe is a is a big market. I think australia is a massive market Those in particular mainly for us. I have visibility because they're english speaking, right? There's a lot of english speaking people in those areas but I think that uh Yeah, like like china here. You hear a lot about and uh the dubai thing See, I don't know if dubai has a massive fitness audience. I think that there's Some people there who are very interested in it and they have the money to support. Yeah, that makes sense right like so like for example to abu-dabi championships is a Is a jiu-jitsu competition. It's called 80 cc. It's the biggest one They paid out the biggest prize purse, but I don't know how many people from dubai actually competing it versus There was just some individuals there who are really bought into jiu-jitsu and they wanted to elevate the sport So they created it and they spent a lot of money on it. That's right. All right, so going back to Uh the shutdowns and the pandemic You know what was interesting to me and and I'd love your input on this as a fitness professional Seeing how this the one space that could probably benefit people the most during this Period of time where we need to be healthier. We need to have stronger immune systems And we need outlets just mentally to deal with the stress of all the stuff and yet being attacked the most by regulators I thought to myself Boy, have we done a shitty job communicating the benefits of health and fitness because if that's the first thing They go after and that's the thing that they're most Strict about what their regulations like you said liquor stores were considered more essential than gyms I thought We're not doing a good job at all did this cross your mind at all and if it did like What do you think we could do moving forward so that if something ever happens in the future Where our health is at risk that they say Gyms are the place we need to protect and figure out how to get people in Yeah, I think we need to do a better job I just think that a lot of people potentially in these leadership roles don't see the value because they're not experiencing it So how do we get more of those people to experience the benefits of fitness is is number one? That's a question Uh, secondly, you know, I think instantly people think like oh, you're heavy breathing So it's worse. I think that's that's probably what happened and they're just like checking the box. They don't want to have any I think what happened is you had some people are like, oh at gyms. You're relatively close and you're breathing heavy And it sounds dangerous. Let's take it off But I didn't think about the opposite side, right the psychological sides the inc enhanced fitness the weight loss whatever it is I think they were so worried about eliminating any risk that they forgot about the opposite side of it You know what I also think is that when you look at the the fitness space It's so scattered and decentralized. Yeah, we don't have a lobby We don't like hollywood has a lobby guess what industry in california remained open without masks was allowed to film was allowed to shoot While shops were shut down and businesses were lost hollywood because they have political power Do you think the people in our space realized we need to do something about our political poll because they don't they don't Look at us like like a voting block or like we have any we need to work on that There's there was a few of those that popped up some of my coalitions that came together I don't think anything really moved with that But there's also major differences between some gyms, right? You have boutique personal training gyms that are One to one you have smaller fitness centers like ours where it's like 15 to 20 athletes and a coach Then you have big box gyms, but they were all treated the same. There should have been different perspectives on that and also Maybe it also has to come down to taxes too. I would like to think that it doesn't But if you think about it in a service-based business, you're not paying taxes On the revenue like you are in a restaurant or in a it's a good point Like if it's a retail like our retail we pay taxes on But our monthly subscriptions no taxes So I wonder I mean, but then again, you're an interesting perspective I've actually never heard anybody say that and that makes it that brings up a really good point, right? Especially when government's making the decision How much revenue will we lose if we shut this down versus this down? By the way, that's completely speculative, but it makes you wonder, right? Yes, as a business, we're paying our appropriate taxes But because it is this service-based business You don't have the same taxes you would have on our retail shops, right? Now our retails are different Um, but you'd hope that didn't play into it. I think ultimately what happened is you have decision makers Weighing and just looking at risk I was watching the news and they were talking about getting rid of the mask mandate This one gentleman's like it's time People should be adults and if they want to wear a mask wear a mask if they don't want to wear a mask They shouldn't have to wear a mask Then the woman this woman gets interviewed We should continue to wear a mask until every single covid case is gone and there's zero deaths That's not gonna happen, but it's like that that's just When have we ever done that with any other disease, but it's just not possible. Well, it's not realistic It's not realistic and and there's there's inherent risk to anything getting in the car and coming here to record with you guys There's a certain amount of risk But I think that I forbid you use that analogy. There's so many benefits Um to fitness and I just I think we need to do a better job talking about like you and I were talking about earlier I mean, dude, think about it like not only Diabetes all these weight loss and all these kinds of things But like just a psychological sign and then feeling part of a of a group of like-minded people I mean, it's just I don't know one of the biggest wedges I've never seen this in history was This information that was put out that asymptomatic people were like these super spreaders And so people just lost their mind and anybody healthy on the street is now Potentially like this and the media can really mess with your head, right? And I'm coming from a place where like do to mess with my head Like I'll be like on low-skettles creek trail and think oh, you know according to them If I walk by someone maybe they breathe on me. I'm gonna get cove it It's like well the media just it really and part of that was my fault and I had to realize hey Gotta stop watching the news because it was it was just Shut it off. You know what? I love we talked about this earlier And this was all fair and you said why weren't politicians standing up and saying Hey as part of a way to protect yourself should get in shape You should eat rice and I and I said to you I said well because nobody gets reelected by saying It's your responsibility To do this every the only way to have all the answers. Yeah, I have I have all the answers now this this opens up something else People who are fitness fanatics we take our health As our responsibility and I think it bleeds into other things and by the way study support this People who exercise consistently tend to have this control what I can control and forget what I can't attitude more Than people who don't because fitness teaches you that doesn't it it teaches you to Well, I mean, I'm not gonna be as big as Arnold, but who cares he's got different genetics. I have mine I'm gonna keep doing this anyway type of deal. Do you notice this one teaches you micro adversity? So that's a good way to put it so you know like for example I was with my daughter in the garage yesterday and we're having her do something and She wants to stop with a minute left. I'm like, hey babe like we could do this Like let's get through this together. You're like you got one minute left like let's go And just that little thing like in the garage on a regular basis or through training You learn how to overcome micro adversity and I say micro because dude, it's not a big deal If she stopped a minute early, it's not a big deal. But learning how to overcome that she starts For David Goggins lack of stealing his stuff like callusing her mind To start overcoming micro challenges Maybe you didn't want to get one more rep on the squat rack But you did and I think those lessons we learned in the gym carry over really well into real life Let's talk about kids for a second You have kids and we talked about this earlier about how challenging it is now to get kids to be active you know when we were kids you were Relatively fit on accident It was like a side effect because the only way you could see your friends and hang out was like playing You're outside to ride your bike to their house Now now if the kids are social online and going outside They're not connecting with other kids. And so we have to find ways of Getting to be active. Have you thought about this from a business perspective? Like have you thought about moving in that direction of working with children or is that just the market that's just Forget it. It's too hard I don't really think about it from a business perspective. I think about it more from like it's highly personal to me Like yeah as a dad. Like yes, there's probably a business case for two, but it's just very very personal for me I think that it's a um, there's a ton of issues, right childhood obesity It's a national defense issue our our future I think that it's really important to get kids moving and I think that we don't need to make it a big deal So at a high level what I teach my kids is that every single day they have to sweat once a day I don't care what you do. I don't care what you're doing You have to move your body and sweat once a day preferably Obviously getting your heart rate elevated and moving through a full range of motion So if they want to go jump on the trampoline, they want to go play sports If they want to go in the garage, I don't care what you do. You just gotta do something and I think that we just need more parents to um to also start looking at as a way to bond with their kids too Like go do something with them. That's outdoors because it's so easy to give your kids and I'm raising my hand saying Hey, man, I get it. I have a seven-year-old and a 10-year-old. It's really easy to give them An ipad or whatnot, but what's better. I think in the long run is going out throwing the ball jump on Trampling or whatnot and if you and you don't have to be a fitness expert to get your kid moving through a range of motion Hey, let's squat Let's try and do some pressing and when you start to realize when you start doing this with your kids is man there might be some Deficiencies here that we could start working towards and maybe they'll get motivated by it So I think it's a major issue It's highly personal, but I haven't quite looked at his business. All right. Let's take it Let's take a left turn here and talk about the app building process Uh, I I've never been in the in I've never tried to build an app. You don't want to We should you should preface it with that before we say something a lot of mind pump listeners Don't know this that that's how Justin and I before mind pump started. We were working together Sal and uh Doug Doug and sal were building uh maps in a bulk. We had never all hung out Justin and I were building an app called level up And yeah, and it was what we were trying to gamify fitness We're trying to gamify fitness So the just what we're talking about right now with kids and just getting people active and moving Through this app that was like a competitive game that was and it was We thought it was a brilliant idea, but it turns out we're not like tech wizards It's just a monster and it's a lot to consider. What's it's okay. Here's what's funny about that I've never been in the process of building an app. So I have no idea I know that apps exist. I use them. We get questions all the time What don't you guys build an app do an app? Oh my god, an app would be so great So I would and I don't bring it up anymore because the answer I get from these guys So it's consistent shut you down. So I'm always like, hey guys, maybe we should and you know, these guys are like, no Let's not because here's the here's the cost. It's actually way more expensive than you think and all these Like what's your experience building an app? Was it something that was it totally different than what you thought? Well, the first thing I'd say is you have to identify a really great partner to do with when I say partner I'm not saying like financial partner. Just someone that you pay. That's really good And that's hard to learn because I don't know anything about apps. So one of the challenges is like if you talk to me about Hey, I need you to go find a good coach. Okay. I got you. What's a good program? Okay, cool But if you say hey, um, how many hours you think it'll take to build this app? The guy's like it'll take 10 000 hours and I'm like Okay Like and so there's a lot of trust that's required when it comes to a development because we are not by trade software engineers And so finding the right person that you could trust and then also identifying the right person Who could speak to the software engineers? In their language what were two critical things that we had to do now? Fortunately the first time around it was okay. Spent a lot of money learned a lot Second time around it's been much better. And I think we found the right people Is it is a big what are some of the big considerate for someone listening right now who thinks Oh, I want to do an app for fitness. What are the big like, I guess big rocks or big considerations aside from What would you tell them would you tell them to do it or not do it and why I think it depends on how much revenue Potentially you have as a company. Uh, what is your end state? Right? Do you want to in-app purchases? If if if you don't like dude, maybe you should rock it on the internet, right? But if you want to in-app purchase it could make sense. But what revenue what is your um, you know, total available market What's your team what what type of ROI do you think you're gonna get what really really identify the financials because It's it's not as clear cut So like for example, if you go through apple, they're taking 30% if you do over a million a year in revenue They're taking 15% if you do less than they just get sued for that. Yeah, they're getting sued for that But right now it's 15% of you under a million. Okay. So we're off the bat 15% if you go that route Now in addition your app to build an app. Let's just say a baseline app. You're looking anywhere from 100 to 300 400 thousand. Okay. So how long is it gonna take and by the way way more than that as good to say I just I just said basic. That's how they start you by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, this will be about three or four A thousand yeah billion dollars later But then you also have when ios updates, right? For example, there was just an ios update You have to also update your app. So there's monthly there's monthly maintenance fees And so what I would say is do a deep dive and analysis on the cost and the benefits Because it could be good for some people. For example, we have one. So at least we saw some value But it's not going to be for everybody. So I would definitely deep dive on the financials Because there's other options you could have we have a you know Password protected or a different type of system online. How long how long will it take you? Have you forecasted this how long will it take you to recoup the money that you spent on it? From the app from it exactly not the obviously the rest of your business Well, I mean, obviously if our app grows at the rate that we wanted to it It's not going to be as long. Um our finance guys. We have a better idea of that. But I mean, I imagine probably a year Um, that's not bad. Maybe maybe I mean maybe a Maybe more. So what one of the challenges we had with our app Is we rolled this out in march a new version of our app. So it's what what is that six months six months And we had quite a few downloads the nc fit app available on ios and android And uh, we have a but it was a little bit confusing because we had a a variety of programs available And we had the on demand And one of the things we're trying to do in the fitness space is we're trying to see if we could bring On demand follow along functional training to people's garages. That's not the way people currently Consume content in their garage, right? So we're so we're kind of going against the headwind a little bit So peloton has dominated the follow along industry But it's on a site a bike that's very stationary. It's designed for that essentially it's designed for that What I was thinking is hey, man, there's people in their garages Who have been by themselves? Why can't they just mirror me on their tv screen and do a workout with me and feel like they're a part of like a Coached experience But that's not the way most people train in their garage So it what we learned very quickly is that we're kind of trying to pioneer this and so it might take some time And it was confusing so we had to re redo and now we have onboarding screens to clearly Guide them towards what they want to look at you you've been you've been a professional in fitness for a long time So like us you've seen the evolution of of media and fitness nowadays fitness is very popular on social media instagram and Other platforms and when we started that wasn't even a part of the discussion right Do you see and I know you have a podcast for example Do you see what value do you see in that as a business owner? Do you see value in doing things like podcasts and social media to augment or to build? What about for you personally? Is that something that is an area that you think has a lot of potential? I mean, I've struggled with it. Um, I'm sure maybe you guys have as well. I mean the social media thing I don't know if you've seen the recent um stories going on with facebook But I mean they're equating I'm not saying this There's other people that are saying it that are equating it to almost like a big big tobacco Right and and saying that the addictive nature of it and the reason why I bring that up is because I worry sometimes about how addictive it is for me and what type of relationship Do I want to have with social media and what type of value can you add in a 30 second one minute clip? So where I think I want to lean more towards in the future is our effort over everything podcast YouTube and then use these other channels to drive people there So we can have good collaborative conversations like this How's that experience going talk to us about that because the last time we did talk you were just starting to take off on your podcast I believe and so tell us about some of that that experience the things you like things you don't like anything that surprised you so far Well, I think we originally had what's called a business of fitness podcast And this was around for a while and it was only for gym owners and coaches And it was like it was like, you know a great resource for them But what I found was like at some point I just kind of said everything I needed to say And like it like you can only talk about the same things over and over again I want to expand things I talk about like I want to talk about Coffee with people I want to talk about an athlete and how they overcome certain challenges And and so that's what we rebranded it from business to fitness to Basically put in the effort over everything like that's it like that's the goal And so now it opens up the conversation the podcast going good But I need to put more time and attention into it because just like you guys this beautiful space If you want to grow something you have to nurture it and I feel like I've been just thinking it'll grow on its own But I need to do a better job of taking ownership and doing the right job. Oh talk about that We we just had a conversation. Um, I would say that is probably our Achilles heel, right? So when you get to kind of a place and we're we're kind of similar places although our business models are different where you have all these different silos, right and How hard is it for you to focus just on one thing and really go that how hard is it for you not to like You know squirrel squirrel squirrel and be trying all these things like talk about I used to be a lot worse Um, I already have like attention like all of us in this room. Basically I mean, uh, I I already have attention problems because I'm I'm I'm very Serial entrepreneurial like that like oh sounds like a great idea. Let's do it and and We've had to surround ourselves. I've had to surround myself with with people who Are much more constructive in the way that they think they need that like kind of entrepreneurial side We're we're trying to be innovative and push the threshold but at the same time Um, I think the people we have at the business now Hold me accountable that before we go out and we go do these ideas to make sure that we actually have a system And a structure in place to be successful and that's why with the podcast It's kind of been like it's been it's been going but I think we need to sit back and say hey If we're going to do this, let's do it right. Let's make it. Let's make it good Let's let's really invest in a space one or not or let's just kind of know where it's at as a business And so I think surrounding myself with good people We have a really great HQ right now and team at uh at an NC fit now being a serial entrepreneur You know, you obviously have this the growth curve like anything else And I I know that when you've done it for well over 10 years that there's these pivotal moments that happen Where either someone gives you this piece of ice or you learn something the hard way What do you recall has been some of the the best advice in in terms of being an entrepreneur that has either changed your philosophy Or laid the foundation on how you do business as an owner I think coming to the conclusion of like, what do I really enjoy doing and what is going to add the most value for our business? Like if those two align that's phenomenal, right? But just evaluating. Hey, what am I spending my time on? What is not driving the best value for the business? And how do I spend my time on things that I'm uniquely good at and then hire out those other positions because I used to try and do everything on my own. I think the the secret was You know this guy I was I was walking on the hallway of one of our gyms one time He's like hey, man, I'm just letting you know if you get hit by a bus your business is gone It's just a hobby. I was like, okay I was like That was aggressive It made me reflect and say, hey, how do I delegate more? How do I build this and and how do I Elevate more people on our teams that the brand can grow bigger than just me So that's what we've been really focused on and it was because that advice of treating it more like a business Unless it's a hobby and not making it just about me and me trying to do everything or all that What would you say is your your Achilles heel then as a as a business operator as my Achilles heel I'm a terrible manager. I I don't know how to manage people well effectively because My whole thing is like I think that people just kind of hey, let's go get this done But people want people want guidance and direction. They want to know what success is They want to know what their trajectory looks like and and so no one I don't have any redirect direct reports like like well, I have one so that the president of our company uh He report we we collaborate but everybody else reports up directly into him And then obviously I have multiple people I talked to on a regular basis But I don't do their performance evaluations or any that kind of stuff because I just just not my strong suit What is your strong suit then? What would you say is your start the your number one strength? I mean creating relationships and then and then and then creating business deals from that right like Like going out there and getting a new corporate wellness account going out there and creating a new strategic partner to Um to put our programming through right? So we have we have channel partners that our programming goes into so let's just say your gym uses What if I which is a member management system Creating that relationship and getting our business into their system. That's what I like to do and that's what I think I'm good at So tell us about this competition. You're gonna do coming up here. You've been competing in for a long time That's how you kind of I mean that's how you got some of your notoriety. Yeah Um, so what is this legends competition? Is it is it like people who won in the past come together? That's what it sounds like a little bit of that. Yeah, it's like it's like so So as of recently and things I I haven't competed in jujitsu competition in a little while just because of covid That's something i'm excited about but this month in particular is this legends competition. So Two years ago rogue fitness put out the rogue invitation on if i'm not mistaken. It was the inaugural year I actually it was the inaugural year and they had what was called legends competition. So they invited back I don't know how to describe them. I mean The best ever people who have really made a mark on the sport champions Whatever right for whatever reason Rogue feel like these people qualify as legends. So it sounds to me like if you're a fan of the sport People like a hall of fame. Yeah people you'd want to see competed against each other that you know about type of deal And it wasn't just so black and white or it was like, oh, we're gonna take anyone who's placed in the top 10 And we're inviting them it was that's right. So it wasn't like there's some people that are invited for the legends that have never been on the podium That have never been on the podium, but they have a name for some but they have a name They've done something for the sport. They've they've in some way shape or form to establish themselves as legends status in crossfit got interesting and Yeah, so and and and and so the first competition was really interesting because they they pitted it As an actual competition. So you actually show up there. We competed in multiple events and um, they had a winner And so I I won that event But it was it was I'm glad this year. They're not really doing it the same way Because the heart of the deal a couple years ago was like people are gonna come down. We're gonna throw down We're having a great time But as soon as they started placing a winner on it, which we didn't really know was gonna be the way that it was And we knew there was gonna be a winner But the way that they did it created a sense of of competition that I think was Was good for that year. It was great But this year I think it's better that they just are making it more as an exhibition where people are just gonna do events But they're not gonna crown a winner. Yeah, but let's let's be honest though I was gonna take on the play. Tell me. Who do you look forward to beating? Well, the reason why you look forward to beating the most Well, the reason why it's weird is is last time they set up the schedule this year It's on halloween. So like using myself as an example I'm not gonna stay for the entire event So I'm only gonna go there for like the events on friday and maybe an event on saturday and then I'm leaving So no matter what I couldn't win So I like the way they did it as a you still want to beat everybody that you competed against that day So my goal my my goal for this particular event just where I'm at in my life man And and even a couple years ago. I didn't I didn't plan to win. That wasn't my intention was to go there Look good. I want to look. I want to look fit With the shirt off or shirt on whatever and I want to be competitive. That was the goal a couple years ago And still the goal this year Yeah, well, it's okay So so this I'll tell you a story because I I'd love to ask you this years ago when I was managing gyms I remember I got to a general manager status. I was grand opening clubs and in those days General managers will you were encouraged to sell yourself, but that wasn't your main goal Your main goal was to teach people under you to sell to produce revenue But in order to become a general manager at one point you were one of the top sales guys, right? So we grand opened a club And this was brilliant move from from the district from the divisional president divisional president comes down In picks general managers from the from the division so all over california and says on the grand opening I want all you guys to go to this club And first place is going to win a thousand dollars and bragging rights So I felt this like oh fuck. I get to do this again Yeah, yeah, and I get to compete against all these guys and let's see who can be the best And it it got me excited because I love to do that. Do you feel that a little bit from this? Yeah, I do. I mean, I definitely um Yes, I do it gives you an idea to train for and I just need to know where I'm at like um A couple years ago I was even even in a different headspace when I won it where so I stopped competing professionally in CrossFit in 2016 um as so when my daughter got sick I stopped competing professionally I then didn't compete again in any CrossFit event Well, except for like little team stuff here and there for fun until the rogue imitational in 2019 And now this is the next time so I am excited. I'm excited because I like I like creating goals based on fitness like two weeks ago I went and did a century ride 100 100 miles on a bike Uh a couple months before that I did another event. Um, I have a ruck event coming up I want to go compete in jujitsu competition I like having these these pilons that I could try and shoot for that keep me On my toes fitness wise that then translates into business as well. They're fun. They're fun I did a century drive the other day actually drunk. Yeah So century drive. So let's talk about jujitsu. Um, what brought you to jujitsu and what's up with like, how far are you? Like where are you right? You broke out? Yeah, I'm like that's one purple belt in the room is what I heard That by the way, that's when the competition, you know, this it's when it starts to get really hard now at that level How's it been for me? So I've been a purple belt since pre-covid So I think I'll be here for I don't we'll see how much longer I'll be at purple belt for but Um, the way jujitsu works. There's a white belt a blue belt a purple belt a brown and then black so You know because there's only five belts So you could be at a belt for a really long time. Oh, yeah, and uh, I love jujitsu because um I like what it does because I'm I'm constantly learning something new and the presence and focus Required on the mat is unlike anything else And if I could take that presence and focus that I'm even having right now with you guys And if I could then put it on the mat and then take it into other areas of my life I'm winning. Well, so let's talk about this for a second because I remember when I first did it I was uh early 20s 220 pounds lifted weights I had a little bit of judo experience as a kid But I didn't do anything for a while and I walked in there big strong dude and got humbled by 150 pound skinny instructor And I loved it like talk about how humbling it is being a fit strong. I mean crossfit champion Go against I'm sure for a long time you went against dudes that were half your size half your strength and just Tapping out like crazy. What like what's that? I mean, I mean, that's the thing about jujitsu So what I fell in love with in crossfit was years and years ago I started in the conventional gym just like all of us right and I buys and tries chest and back cardio I get it all good and then I found crossfit and it was like, oh, I'm gonna teach you I do a bar muscle like what and then it's like a rope climb what? You know a snatch and I was very inspired because I saw dramatic improvements On a regular basis very very quickly. So my snatch went from 100 pounds to 200 pounds whatever it is, right? What happened is after competing professionally seeing all these different coaches You maybe make like 1% better. You didn't make these big gains And I missed that then I found jujitsu And in jujitsu you could feel like you're making massive improvements Every single day because you learn a technique that could have such a big impact on your on your training So what it does is it's not only a physical thing for me. It's a lot of mental chess as well And so I've had to humble myself In the sense that when you go in there and you're in you're in you're throwing down There's a large learning curve because there's so much to learn But once you learn a baseline then it's it's it's really exciting I think you gotta give it six months and you gotta you gotta be okay to put your ego at the door Because those guys will check that shit real quick. Oh, oh real fast. Yeah. Oh, if you're trying to be a jerk Yeah, people send the arm breaker after. Oh, yeah, they will I want to I want to take you actually back to cross figure because I think I don't think I've ever had a chance to Ask you this question Sure Is and you're probably not in this headspace anymore, but at one point you had to been Did you have a nemesis? Did you have someone you love to beat who just used to get on your skin? Like did you have a guy like that? Oh, yeah, I mean obviously so rich froney and I we went back and forth quite a bit a lot So him and I competed against each other so he won so in 2013 he took first I took second in 2014 he took first I took third And we competed together on team USA three times we so yes I would say that rich at the time was was the nemesis and uh or the the But it was good for both of us like actually at one point I even wrote up in my garage What's rich doing as a daily reminder that this dude's probably training hard and you're being a little wimp stainless at the house Go out there and train That that you know, that was just my way of kind of like inspiring myself. Yeah Um, but yes, so rich and I think it was good for the sport at the time. There was a lot of You know throwing down. Yeah, it's fun, man Yeah, is it now are you guys friends though outside of outside of the competition? You guys close friends, right? Yeah, I mean I think we're I mean we yes like we'll see each other at the invitation We'll be able to you know, catch up. Um, but like we were also on the same team So we represented USA in three Uh crossfit competitions So for that alone, you create a really good great bond Do you do you foresee like and we're seeing this right now with like Instagram celebrities getting into fighting and boxing and the way people are using social media Do you see the josh bridges jacob hepner one? No, I don't know what so I don't know if you guys know who either of those guys are but so josh bridges is um former navy seal uh crossfit games competitor and he boxed against this guy jacob hepner also former crossfit games champion Or crossfit games competitor. They boxed actually in dubai with um, uh, Steffi cohen They were on that card. Okay, and so they were on this card and um, I think it's good for the sport Oh, yeah, there it is. It's right up on the screen bridges into the ring nearly eight. Yeah, so uh Jacob ended up winning but it was really interesting because it's good to see Our sport transition outside the gym a lot of people in crossfit Do crossfit to get better at crossfit and working out But I wish they would realize just how well it translates and everything else biking jujitsu getting outside And this is a great example of that. I think well, that's what I was driving towards was I was, you know I'm wondering if we're gonna see an evolution of the sport of crossfit where uh And why I asked kind of the nemesis question is because you know, because of social music drama, you know, I'm saying Yeah, that's good like a jake paul doing that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Are you are you seeing that yet start to happen? Like where guys are like picking fights I mean, well, you saw it here, uh, which I was surprised You know, ultimately it's like if people are gonna pay for some great entertainment It's gonna be something that's cool for these guys to train for I'm all for it Like some people are like, oh, you know stick to cross like bro like Crossfit that one of the first rules is is is regularly play new sports. That's like one of the things and Somehow along the journey we we forgot that and so I think these guys getting out there and doing that is great And I think if there's an opportunity for me, I'd love to take it up. I don't know exactly what that looks like But it'd be fun. I'll find something for you to fight I don't know 24 fitness founder fights Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a lot of fun. So all right moving forward. What's the big focus for you guys? Are you predicting? Are you guys prepared for? Maybe future shutdowns are you setting yourself up that way? Are you looking at okay? It's gonna settle down We're gonna keep moving forward the way that we have like what's that look look like for I hope that we don't have to have this discussion again Like I I really hope that we've learned from the past and that shutting down gyms is just not a good idea And so I'm anticipating that we will not and I really hope we don't because it's gonna put us in a really difficult position You know since the beginning we said, hey, we're gonna buy by state and county laws But at some point You know, we have to also think about our staff and our members and there's a lot there's a lot to unpack there So right now we're planning on hey the gyms are gonna be open. We're gonna hit our roaring 20s come in January We're gonna get new people back in the gym. Um, they're gonna be thriving That's like I've I've visualized that right and then we're gonna try and impact as many people Through our online products, whether that's for gym owners or for for athletes through the nc fit up Are they require? I don't know if this is even a is this a law yet? Are they requiring gyms to add to require members to be vaccinated or is that just what some gyms are deciding to do? So depends on your county, um in san francisco county It or san francisco city or county required to show they're required. Um I have conflicting views on that a little bit. I think that uh, you're really I I struggle with that one a lot Even though I think that like 95 of our audience is vaccinated here in california I I think there's some privacy and and I think that people should be able to make the best decision for them and I think that Like look, I am vaccinated, right? And I think I think there's probably a large group of people who are in a who are in a certain cohort that probably should get it Right, but if you choose not to after all the data and all the whatever like that's your decision and um As a business, it's it's very unfortunate. They place that upon you to to To be the common denominator where you're actually policing that that's what I was going to ask Like what do they have to show just a card and then you mark it in their system? And then it's only good for a certain period of time or is it like how does it how does that work? Well, then and then when does it stop like then then if there's another shot next year Do I have to then re-up their vaccination card? It becomes very very complicated. Um, so like right now for example I wanted to go to the movie theaters. Um, have you guys been to the prune yard movie theater? Yeah, I love it Oh, they're legit. Yeah, they required vaccine. Oh, I didn't know that So I there's this app on your phone. It just there's a QR code. It pops up I mean, I don't know how well people look at it but you have to show to the person there and I just I don't know We will not We will not do that Without being mandated and if we are mandated it'll require a conversation as a leadership team on what we want to do there But I don't think that the government should be doing that And placing that burden on small business because they're putting you in between a rock and a hard place they really are and um Yeah, who pays the price if if if you check it wrong or if it's expired or if they falsify it like it's really interesting nobody's considering this no one's considering that or Or yes, there's a variety of different things like Santa Clara County put out This is a long time ago that we needed to um Check in with each one of our employees to see who's vaccinated. Who's not we need to keep track And that was very difficult for us because I said we did it right we did it But because that wasn't infringing that was that was tough for me to do But I didn't feel like it was that big of a deal because if you're not that's fine But I didn't want to know about it meaning I didn't want to be aware of who's vaccine or who's not Because just in case someone need to leave or we need to make a you know employment change I don't want them to be able to come back and say it's because of those reasons like what's going to happen with those cases Right, what a good point. What a good point like yeah What I find most interest is my own to set two cents. They don't count natural immunity So you can show that you're vaccinated But you but they don't give you any opportunity to show that you've had covet and have Natural immunity which studies now show to be the best form of immunity They don't count at all and that just in my let me look my opinion that fuels the conspiracy Theories that the big pharma is partnering with big government because why wouldn't they count if that's the goal Why aren't they counting natural immunity? Why is it only vaccination that to me that part right there is very inconsistent? That's very inconsistent and then also for me What's tough too is like, you know, I got vaccinated and then I still got covet and then I was still able to give it to My kids and and so, you know, I don't know it depends Look, this is a very complicated conversation because depending on what resources you look at what sources you look at on news You could go either way meaning you could find some data that backs up that if you're vaccinated Your viral load and all this kind of stuff is significantly less And that's why you should get vaccines is Greater it's good for the greater good of all the people in in the in the environment Or you can see others that say they doesn't make too much of a difference So you can still spread it just as easy it depends on what what you're looking at But it's it's for that reason like it's just what what I don't like is that it's placing small business including ourselves In a in an impossible situation where you have some members that feel super strongly about one way And you have some members that feel super strongly the other way And the gym is supposed to be a place where people should just come in not talk politics Not talk any of that and be a free space for them to enhance their life and um, yeah, I don't remember who I was talking to I can't remember who I was talking about but too but one of one of their favorite things about the gym culture And I agree with this is in all of us have experienced this You go into the weight room and you work out And it doesn't matter what color your skin is doesn't matter if you're male or female doesn't matter who you voted for Nobody care, especially the gyms where people are serious Nobody gives a shit. It's all about we're working out. We're working hard We respect each other sit and it's funny because they're you know People are afraid or intimidated of the weight room I tell you what you go to the weight room with the most hardcore members And if you don't know what you're doing and you need help The most experienced hardcore big jack scary looking people will be the nicest and will help you the most And they don't care how rich you are how poor you are They don't care what you do for living or what the color of your skin is right. It's incredible It is it's just like this Neutral zone where everybody's just cool and everybody just wants to put in the work and they want to do it together And they there's a lot of mutual respect in gyms because they know that you had the decision Like I said this to I took 6 a.m. Class yesterday. I said to all the members I said guys, I really appreciate every one of you guys You could be out at home eating a crispy cream or or or sleeping But you chose to come in here and bust your butt and I'm really grateful for you doing that And I think that that overall sentiment the gym is what the culture is created, you know It is I had an experience as a kid as a 16 year old kid working out learning and a group of That the time the biggest strongest dudes that ever seen in my life was a group of power lifters Literally started helping me and taught me how to squat and taught me how to work out right there They took their time to do it this these grown men And it was just such an impactful thing to me and I did that as a grown man myself when I see A kid in the gym or someone who doesn't know what they're doing And I and you know, I they're really they're trying really hard to change that in gyms And it's sad because it's one of the most I think one of the most beneficial things Of fitness facilities is that environment right there? Yeah, we need to continue to have more conversations like this and get more people in the gym and do it in a Constructive way like you know if you live in the Bay Area you want to come by an NC fit We'd love to have you meet a coach and just have a great conversation about What do you try to do and how we can help you? But if you're don't live in the Bay Area go find a gym go find a coach or go jump on a program But I think it's like we got to do something you know something is better than nothing And it starts creating these habits that then can really make a big impact Like even like these morning walks that I've been doing like take a backpack Put a couple water bottles in it So there's a little bit of load so it opens your shoulders Especially if you're sitting at a desk all day and go out for a you know 30 minute walk to start the day. It's a great way to jump start the day. I think Excellent man. Well, you're always fun to talk to you brother You're very motivating and we we appreciate you coming on the show. So this is this is great. Yeah, thanks. It's been a great time I appreciate being here, man. Thanks. Bye Jack