 I love that. Okay. So can everyone hear me? I'm assuming you can. Okay, good. Well, welcome everybody. This is September's Reclaim Hosting Community Chat. And this one is going to be focused around how to scale WordPress. And the joke of the title is fast, cheap, and enterprise. I think because many folks I'm sure here who have worked at all with WordPress, welcome Shannon, you being one of them. The idea was early on when we were doing this at our campus, fast, cheap, it's out of control. It was really kind of like quick and we could do it on the cheap. And one of the things that's kind of developed recently is that like, not that recently, but more recently is, you know, when you do that, you also have to scale these instances, often for universities or for your organization. So this is going to talk a little bit about some of that. But before we do, I just want to ask anyone have any experience starting WordPress on something like shared hosting, and then trying to scale it for thousands of people. I don't know if anyone might be in this chat who has experience, but like, you know, how did that traditionally go back in 2008 or 2009? What would it be before the quote unquote cloud really blew up is, I don't know, Tom, I'm going to put you on the spot because I just don't want to talk the whole time. Well we have done that in several disastrous ways with a great deal of drama each time. We did it with the rampages multi site, certainly, which we then try to use on WP engine and even had issues there, and eventually had to go the sharded database route. But that was high drama. And then I think again with Ant101 and Mike West's site, we had another kind of high drama, high, all of it always being tied to like lots of people writing at the same time, and then not being able to scale that side of things. A lot of people I think even in the old days were fairly good at like caching all the front end stuff, but had real trouble with the, hey, hundreds and thousands of authors. But yeah, many sleepless nights, many cataclysmic failures, and then it would be like we got a fix and it would fail utterly again. So, yeah, Jim remuted right now. So I used to give presentations and this is kind of a whole set of slides that would go when we were talking about traditional IT is you would at our universities, this would be the person who's running the servers. This would be the help desk, right? And then we would have the experimentation through things like Bluehost to kind of get us out of there and do that. But like you said, Tom, when we kind of came off to the other side of that, the question was how do we scale it? In 2009, 2010, you would have to go to a bigger, usually dedicated server. That was starting to get into server admin and management, right? When the cloud came along and that would be start playing that in like 2013, 14, exactly expensive and you'd also use more resources maybe then you needed for just those few times when you were kind of hogging up resources. So obviously I don't mean to be like, how would I say, you know, pedantic here, things have changed a little bit, right? The web has changed, you know, things like cloud hosting have changed things. And I'm just wondering like with WordPress, like how are we hosting our WordPress instances now as organizations, institutions, even as individuals, right? We talked about the shared hosting. But us at Reclaim, I think 80% of our managed hosting deals with larger WordPress instances. And that's really where we kind of focus. And the thing is, is we have shared hosting, which is really affordable and good for the small WordPresses. And then we have managed hosting, which is more expensive. And, you know, you add a significant amount of money on top of that for us to manage and to do that. And as we were talking about this previously, like there's no good middle ground, where you can have a kind of performant WordPress instance, that's not going to kind of break the bank if you don't want it managed by someone else. And so we've been kind of in that space for a while, and pretty interested in what we've worked with. We've done Reclaim Cloud, but we have a new experiment we're doing or actually service we're providing that's going to be called Reclaim Press, which is focused just on WordPress. But anyway, I don't want to get too deep down those weeds. Anyone else ideas about scaling WordPress, experiences, things they want to share here? Do they want to see some of what I'm talking about with Reclaim Press? You let me know. Because I could dangerously just talk. I know I'm mindful this should be a chat. I'm kind of curious. This is sort of seeding a question, I guess, because I know some of this haven't been at Reclaim for a little bit now, but kind of curious in your experience. WordPress doesn't, one of the tricky things about, I guess, really any website posting in general, but WordPress is definitely one of these, is there isn't, in my experience, a magic number of when do I need to move my site? It's not X amount of visitors, X amount of even bandwidth, because it depends on what is being transferred. But when you're looking at a site that may not be a good fit for shared hosting, what are your top things you're looking at when you're trying to be like, this is maybe something that needs to have some other hosting situation so it can be fast? Yeah, I think one of the things I'm looking for is when we get regular discussions from people saying, our site's slow, and then we test out against the main shared hosting server, which isn't slow, but resources are allocated in particular ways so that someone can't eat up too much resources. That kind of is a heads up that that site might be kind of pulling on the rest of it. Also, for example, I was talking with Brian Mathers, who just joined, big fan, and also who's been doing the art for Reclaim Press, as he does for all of our Reclaim stuff, so it's awesome to have you here, Brian. If you all haven't worked with Brian, you should. But the thing here is one of the things we talked about is he has three WordPress sites that define his business, his identity, and stuff. On shared hosting, they perform well, decent, but if you have a very focused need and you want that site to be really snappy because you care and you want it to be fast, that's another level of hosting. He's not going to turn around and be like, I want matters hosting for all my instances, and I need to do this or that, but people who have it as part of a business, as part of an organization, as part of something, there may be some space. I think, Taylor, to answer your question and not go too along, I think it's like when you start feeling like it's dragging, but maybe it's not the shared hosting server itself, but it's just demands. You could have a whole plug-in suite, right? Some people have these learn-dash suites or e-commerce tools or stuff where that stuff just loads over your instance, and it's going to be slow unless it has dedicated resources. So it really depends what you're doing with it. I mean, would you know as well, you've troubleshot a lot of slow sites that we claim, right? You get a sense of what's coming. That's my approach is I typically don't like, it's not always what people want to hear, but I typically don't like giving people a number of like, well, if you have 100 subsites or 100 people, then it's no longer a good fit. In my experience, I've seen sites that are surprisingly large, perform surprisingly well with very little resources, and I've seen the opposite too. So yeah, that's kind of my approach is normally to not so much try and predict, but sort of have a plan of like, okay, when, if things get slow, what are our options, basically? And I try to look at it that way versus, because the nice thing about WordPress is you can run it a lot of different places, right? So you can move it from shared hosting to another, to Reclaim Cloud, to Reclaim Press, to other shared hosts, to other services. And what we like about the containerized stuff is once you do move it, the sky is the limit in terms of, the sky or floor is the limit in terms of how many resources you want to give. You can scale it way down or scale it way up and not have to move it again, but that's kind of how I look at it too, is I look for more like outliers. Like, if I disable this plugin, does performance way better? Okay. Well, do we need that plugin? Is it mission critical? You know, mute it again. Mute it in Jitsi. How many of you out there have a C panel account packed with WordPress instances that, amongst other things, will make a HTML, you know, you know, some Zen photo that you installed once, and it's just sitting there in a rat's nest of other applications in C panel. Like anyone in this call have something similar to that? Yes. Thank you, Lee. I needed that. I mean, we all do to some degree, right? Like, C panel is amazing in all the things it does. And for a cheap WordPress instance, you can't do better competitively for price. It's great. And for, you know, often for experience for a small site. But we have found, and this is a kind of good first instance. So recently I've had our first move to reclaim press, and I'll show you reclaim press in a bit, but it's someone whose site had been hacked all the hell on C panel. And their only option was to extract those WordPress sites that they could use and then, you know, update and then basically isolate them and reclaim press so that they have just their WordPress and then they bundled up their C panel account, put it in a trunk, and hopefully let the snakes in there and don't bite them at some point in the future. So there's also that, like there's a point at which you have to unbundle sometimes these applications from all the other stuff you've done. Yeah, exactly. It was rough. Yeah. So I guess I'm faltering here because I, you know, I'm going to pull an Allen Levine and lead with the demo. I kind of want to show you a little bit of what we've been playing with with reclaim press. But I know this is kind of like, and I said this to Tom as we get on, like this is not something we have openly available, but anyone in this call or anyone else you know who wants to play with it and get some free credit and try out reclaim press, just let us know. Put it in the chat or let me know. We'll get you an account so you can play with it. And then on Friday, we're going to do a stream where we're playing with this because it's pretty fun. I love that. That's why I became an attack is to play with this stuff. But this is an application that builds off of our reclaim cloud. And essentially, it's a window into it. So let me share my screen. But before I do, is anyone want to talk and stop me from dominating this conversation? Because you should. Well, I guess I have a I can dominate the conversation too. But while people are thinking of stuff, why, why reclaim? We have reclaim cloud. What does this do? That's different. Good question. Thank you. Let me show you actually, I'm going to lead with the example. So I'm going to share my screen here. And this will show you. So if you can see this, this is reclaim press. And I don't know how many of you have used reclaim cloud. But let me let me do this. I'm in Tom Woodward's account. So let me get a Tom Woodward's account who just got an account. And you too can for the low, low price of nothing. But for those of you, and this is Brian Mathers beautiful art, which he's working on us for. So this is a good example of just what you're you're asking Taylor is in traditionally reclaim cloud, which is container based infrastructure, which runs pretty much any environment, it can run PHP, it can run node, it can run Java, etc. But it also, like most even in C panel, most people are using WordPress, whether we like it or not, and there's good reasons for that. But yet, this is still a kind of very dev ops environment. It works quite well. But it is kind of, you know, not necessarily the most, I would say inviting interface, right? There is ability to clone environments to get into SSH. You can redeploy PHP. You can have some add ons, which are basically like plugins for the environment, right? You can see that here, like let's encrypt WordPress based URL. These are essentially containerized environments for not only WordPress, but a whole bunch of different instances on reclaim cloud. What's different about reclaim press is it's only dealing with WordPress environments. And this is not the interface you will see. The interface you will see is more like this. So like what you have here is four different WordPress environments. And there's Brian Mathers, we're getting his, I'll let him talk more about that. And this is the person who was hacked the hell who came with their hands out. Basically, like, you know, I got to get stuff out. But if I go into this particular site, what I see now is a different view on top of the kind of more list like containerization of a specific WordPress environment, giving you the WordPress version, giving you PHP version and allowing you to redeploy it, data center information, all your SSH and SFTP, also access to PHP admin all in one place. So it's like a dashboard for managing your WordPress instance. On top of that, you have access to the plugins without logging into WordPress directly. And you can turn them on and off. And then they'll also tell you which plugins are using a lot of resources. And that will be a kind of graph within the plugin, like kind of WordPress query monitor, if you will. So you have plugins, you have an overview, and then you have some other cool stuff, I think you have the ability to map custom domains on top of any instance without using an IP address, which saves you money. So it's all C names. You have SSL certs free that you can kind of push right on there. You have backup and backup that could be multi region in different regions, and you can take them right before you do anything or have them run in different regions over different times. I mean, in terms of keeping your stuff super safe and points if you're doing stuff with like object storage or other stuff. And the whole thing is driven by subscriptions. And what's interesting thing about this is you could subscribe rather than going with the kind of, you know, monthly, how many resources am I using, how much will I pay? You get set resources for a set amount. Now, none of this is set. We don't have pricing figured out yet. We're still on the idea of figuring it out in terms of what we want to do. But what I'm pretty excited about is the idea of this interface and the idea that you can go pretty seamlessly between a staging and production environment right in here, which is something for our .edu hosting we hear a lot about. And on top of that, you have other stuff like, you know, SSH keys that you can upload, payment methods. So when you're doing that invoices and different subscriptions, all of this is kind of part of managing a very simple singular WordPress instance in a container based cloud with dedicated resources, whether it's two gigabyte, four gigabyte CPU resources. But this also, and I know Brian Lam, you're on this call, one of the things I think about immediately when I think about this is, you know, what we're essentially doing with this is, and I can show you if I jump back to here, is these, this whole thing you see here is just another view of this, right? This is just a more elegant interface for dealing with those. But the other thing that's super cool is, so say, and this is why we're using it. So this is very practical. Reclaim has, I don't know, 70 or 80, basically large WordPress multi site installations that we manage. And so just like with Reclaim Cloud, that was great for managing our infrastructure, same with Reclaim Press. This will be great and performant for managing our WordPress infrastructure. And one of the cool things here is, we can have customized WordPress instances that we install that some use Nginx, some use Lightspeed, some are focused for WooCommerce, some are clustered. So that's a huge site that, and then others could be multi region, which is high availability. You have one in Canada, one in the West Coast, and then all of them have backup storage. But we can also, if we create our own JPS installers, have a commons in a box instance or have a special federated instance. Like if people, and as Bonnie Russell talked about last month, I'm super interested in what it would mean to have this. But if you're an admin like in British Columbia, who's giving out high availability WordPress instances, and you need a place to manage them, but also allow other people to manage them, think about if you had this kind of infrastructure. And then on a particular site, let's just say Brian Mathers site, not to pick on Brian, but if I go here, right, I can create collaborators. And those collaborators, and this is in this interface, so I'm kind of moving between interfaces, but you'll see, I'm kind of collaborating on Brian's site to do stuff for him. But the same could be true of a super admin and all the admins at different campuses. And this is exactly how we would use it for our WordPress stuff. But the fact is, is rather than the end client seeing this, right, what your community will use, we'll see is this. Now, this is always, you know, I'm the kind of person who when something new comes out, I have a hammer, everything becomes in the hell true, I'm guilty as sin of that. But the thing that's pretty cool about this is we heard from a university just last week, as I've been working on this for a few weeks now. And they're like, look, where the it we just we don't really want to host WordPress. We just want a place where we can help people get WordPress's and matters them. But we don't want WordPress multi site because these are going to be big sites with a lot of images and need resources. And it's like, well, if you're an IT program or department or whatever, and you're not doing a WordPress multi site, although there's many reasons to use this to scale big WordPress multi sites for sure. I mean, that would be the way to go because you can start super small on the subscription and then just scale up as you need resources, never migrating the instance. It's always the same instance. It's pretty cool. But here, this would be your four instances of WordPress in your IT program that you can manage, you get SSH access, you get keys, all in one seamless place. And you'll see these graphs, they kind of tell you what's happening in a particular instance at any given time. And so I just moved before this call because it's always the the experimental space for me. Bava Tuesdays, my own blog. It's a multi region setup over to this instance. Now, this is the backstory to Reclaim Press is it's the same people who virtuoso who brought you Reclaim Cloud, which is our cloud infrastructure, made this kind of instance that sits on top of it for WordPress. A lot of it is fully done, but there are features still coming, right? So the production and staging features are not available yet for multi region. So that's coming and multi region's interface isn't coming. But I don't think we'll go live with this for another month or so. But I would be interested, you know, to kind of get a sense and I didn't even test the plugins one on Bava Tuesdays. Let's see if that works. Yes. Anyway, I'm going to stop sharing my screen and I would be interested, you know, just I can take people through any of this, I could show you it, we can look at this. But I would just be interested to know, you know, what are some of your thoughts? And this is kind of what, yes, please, Shannon, go. I guess I have questions. I'm trying to wrap my head around like the use cases for this. And I'm feeling it might not work as well at Mary Washington. Because I like, you know, here's here's my thought process. I think this works really well in places where a lot of faculty development projects are happening. Like, you know, say this is based in your library, and you're building a big site alongside a faculty member, and there's a bit of ownership versus the way we do it. It's like, here you go faculty, you build what you want. I don't really know what you're doing there. Because I'm trying to imagine moving somebody like Jeff McClurk and stuff. He has tons of stuff on the C panel. But like, if we moved him here, there's suddenly this issue of like, well, like, how, how do we get that paid? Like, we just have like less, we're not as hands on in that like knowing the projects that are happening and developing those. So I think in my right that recline press is probably a good fit for like when you're kind of more tightly integrated into that, the building and ownership of those projects. Well, I wonder too, I agree, like, you know, someone who has 100 smaller word press sites in their C panel, probably better stay there until they get hacked and then we'll take them all out. But I think the thing that's key here is, for example, say McClurk has one site of those five, that he needs to be up and to be performant and kind of to pull it out of whether it's a WordPress multi site or his C panel, only maybe because it's a grant owned, and then he's got to share it with someone because you can share all of these instances, change ownership. So I think it's kind of for more of the instances that have to have more resources that maybe have to be independent for other reasons, grant reasons, financial reasons, but also the ability to kind of, you know, coordinate off like the IT program of this university we're talking with is like, they really want it just because it's a gallery instance who's doing a big image gallery site and WordPress, and they need that because of storage, you know, because of particular access for developers, because this is a really good instance. Like, look, if you look at the interface here, Shannon, and this is actually even for you, like, let's just say this is WordPress site, this is UMW sites now, right? And you want access to the dashboard of WordPress multi site because you have a developer, or because you want to do some things, or like, I didn't even show you this piece. So look at this, and there's more. Look at this. So here's statistics. This is the file manager of that WordPress instance. It's all right here. So if I go here, I can see all the different WordPress files, and then I can go in there, and I can open them and edit them, right? So you could give people access to that to go in and, you know, change file mat kind of like you do with file manager on cPanel. But this gives you it right outside. And while we have plugins here, we'll also soon have themes. And I think this kind of almost walks the line, Shannon, between someone who's still managing WordPress sites for other people, but who maybe is not a command line kung fu genius who wants to go in and is fine with the DevOps thing, but they want this kind of nice managed interface for their WordPress instances. So it kind of tries to walk that line. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I'm definitely not a command line kung fu genius. So and it's it's also something I think of like, like, I don't know, like in the what you're talking about where you've got all these projects you don't know about. I think this is more to think of something that could be in your or your department's toolbox when you have someone come to you and say, I've been using this site for years and all of a sudden it's slow. And your troubleshooting and going, this is just too big of a site to live on domain one zone, like it's not going to work well here. Now you have a couple options, right? You can, you can have the site in reclaim press and it's a little bit nicer interface. If they're comfortable with it, you could show them and point them to that and say, you do this, I don't want to do this, right? Because it's a little bit like to put someone into reclaim cloud is we like reclaim cloud, but because it can do anything in the terms of hosting, it could be a little it be too much overwhelming, especially when you're just talking about a WordPress site. So to have this be something that is a little bit friendlier, I think makes up goes a long way, especially when we're talking about plug in the management stuff. Lee and then Brian, let's do it. Yeah, so I guess I would think in sort of piggybacking off of Shannon's question, this sounds like the perfect sort of like almost the big DH projects, right? The big collaborative DH projects that get funded or our cross multi sites that they're also like, so we had, I don't know if you all remember there was, there's a DH project here at Georgetown of the Italian department. And there is something that we couldn't do in a shared hosting environment, and I don't think it was on WordPress, but it there is like a limitation to what we could do in a shared hosting environment for that particular project. I'm just wondering if this would, this would solve that you might not be able to answer that because I just really did not give you enough context. But and so I guess, so I can see the use case of it's like too big for domains, but the university still doesn't want it on their servers. And there might be limitations is why they don't want to do it on their servers too. Yeah, exactly. But I guess this is the bigger existential question is like why WordPress, right? Like especially, you know, people are talking about moving away from WordPress, talking about static HTML, talking about static site generators, like why is it the ubiquity of the platform? Is it the knowledge of it? Like why WordPress? I think, again, it's just sort of a, like I said, it's an existential question more than it is anything else. But yeah. Well, and it kind of depends on who's where you position the question, right? Like obviously, in some cases, if you're, if it's your site, then that's a good question. And one I would encourage people to ask, right? Like you have all the control. But a lot of times with these sites, it's like WordPress in terms of website building platform tools is still, in my opinion, going to be the thing when it's going to be your option when you have more than one person working on it, right? Like to say like, we're all going to work on a large site and we can all edit multiple pages, like different pages at a time and stuff like that. A lot of the other tools aren't as easily set up for that with the same capability, right? So not that there aren't options, there are, right? So that's my thing. Like I love my static site generators. I can't imagine like training someone on how to do. Yeah, it's just you would endorse it. Yeah, just me and Darcy Norman are like, you know, it's great for you to look good on YouTube. The rest of us gotta eat. So yes, but then combine that with the capability stuff, right? So combine that with the fact that WordPress can kind of be whatever you want it to be, right? So you can have like a calendar system if you install the right plugins and stuff like that. So I guess what I'm saying is I really appreciate that question because I do think when you have the opportunity to be critical of that, that's important and we need to do that. And then some cases it's like, okay, but we do have like 200 people that we want to have editing this site. And so probably WordPress is the thing. Maybe not, but you know. Yeah, I'm just thinking of a particular situation that we're, that I'm dealing, well, it's not really dealing with, but so we had a, we have an art gallery on campus, and they were on domains. And when the PHP updated their site broke, they're not, you know, so they've migrated and gone to like Bluehost or something. I don't remember, but they're in our square space. So they're using the kind of click and drag and drop where I could see this being a perfect solution for them, but they didn't want to use WordPress anymore, because they were really frustrated with it. So I guess that's also my, again, they didn't really consult with us. It was just like you guys told us this, this particular place is using a lot of storage. We're like, yes, because they're using high res images. And then we reached out to them and they were like, oh, yeah, no, we don't, we're not using domains anymore. We moved over to the square space or whatever it is, because it was just easier and we didn't like WordPress. We're like, oh, all right, well, sure. You know, so it's, so again, it's just this sort of interesting space where like, obviously they wouldn't be the static site generator type of people, although it probably would be okay. But also like, I don't know how managing their website on Squarespace is going to be any easier than what it was on domains. Like that's, I guess I'm trying to. It's funny, because one of the things that happened when David Wiley is the one who, who got hacked and was coming to us and he's like, that's, that's all right. I'm just going to create flat files. I'm going static, right? It was like, I'm going static. And then three days later, he's like, okay, I'm back at WordPress and I cleaned everything up because there is an investment to going static. And I am all for it. But like, when you're talking about scaling this as we have with universities to hundreds, if not thousands of people, and trying to scale static versus a dynamic system like WordPress, I mean, I think that's where I think it thrives. I think people can use any tool. I do think it's, you know, open. But I think for part of what we've seen and our demand and where people are building and able to get the best bang for their buck in terms of, you know, as close to enterprises they can WordPress still has a lot to offer. So that's, that's where I would say, Brian, I know you've had your hand up. So I want to throw it. Yeah. Yeah. Hi, everybody. Yeah. Yeah, just on that point, I think, I think WordPress is just still the easiest way to get something up and running. It's the path of least resistance, you know what I mean? And invariably, you come back to it a few months later, and there's like a thing you want to add and the plugin already exists. And you know, it's, I think it's, it occupies that middle ground really well. But I just wanted to say, I've just been tinkering. Obviously, Jim has shown me and has got failed attempt Brian at moving. I'm going to get it now. Yeah. And obviously, my process involves sort of getting Jim to talk about stuff and then creating artwork from it. And obviously, Jim's bigging it up. And I, you know, I absorb all that big upness, right? So I'm already a convert. But as you know, as you know, but I have to, this really appealed to me in, in that, okay, I'm not a, I'm not a school or a university, I guess, but I just a handful of sites, but one of them in particular, it needs to be performing, right? And it's a, it's a, it's a site with a little e-commerce backend on WordPress that needs to be performing. And on shared hosting, it's just like, would, would commerce is like a, just makes it sink, you know, I guess. So the idea that you can containerize that. And also, whenever I had a look at the interface, it does feel like someone's getting like C panel is all over the place. I don't know how you find it. But it's like, if you're trying to troubleshoot where a problem is, you know, C panel, like you're wading through, you know, various different bits and pieces. And I, so I get quite frustrated with it. Feels like this is all sort of, you know, gathered together for me who I sort of know enough, but I'm not, I'm not, you know, I don't have those sysadmin kung fu skills that somebody like Tom Woodward probably has. But yeah, so I like that sort of middle space that it gives you just enough power, you know, in terms of the visibility and, and also that just that protected, you know, this is going to perform consistently. That's, that's sort of music to my ears, I think. So anyway, we'll see, we'll see how it actually goes. Right, Jim? Jim, you're muted again. Jim, you're muted. Muted in jitzy. Thank you, Brian. I did want to show some of Brian's art because we are, we always lead with the art. That's kind of, you know, we don't care if people really going to use it. We just want to have that hour with Brian to figure out what it's going to look like. And so here is the reclaim record going back to that with the word press, but in an R reclaim site. And this is all Brian. Here is his logic about what would the reclaim logo look like. And this is the best one. And I think it says a lot, right? Like, this is like you said, Brian, for a site that needs dedicated resources and like it's, it's something that you want to be up. You want to perform. It's not every site and not every word press site. It wouldn't make sense financially or even just labor wise. But this is just amazing in terms of the baby and word press. And then this is kind of a breakdown of some of the stuff. Like I love that it takes a lot of that stuff out of C-Penal, like you were saying, Brian, and it puts it right into the word press interface. So that all of that stuff and monitoring backups, database management, it's all in one place for that instance. And then, like I said, if you're running this for many people, like you're an agency or like you're a university at a region that's providing word press across that region, you have some control over who can do what in a granular way on each of these environments, which is pretty powerful. So Brian's art says it all. I think I just love it. And then this is great. So one of the things I didn't even talk about, and this is again, you know, possibilities, one of the things we freak out at Reclaim is backups. It saved us a million times. We probably still wouldn't be here if we didn't have good backup systems. This one has backups that you can get, it hashes everything over the last hour. So say you make a big change and you want to go back 10 minutes ago or 11 minutes ago, as this one says, like it has a snapshot feature where you can just bring the whole thing back to that 11 minutes or 13 minutes. And that's, you know, that can be a big deal if you're doing this on a development setting. And then this is their Andy Warhol records. We're going to the vinyl for this. That's that was our decision. And there's a great image. And do I have it in here? Did I include it? I don't know if I did, but I'm going to get it anyway. There's a great image where it highlights the, let me go into this is dangerous. I'm going to go into my email. So and I'm going to share it so you can see how the other half lives. Let's see and go to Brian others and that I will find this one. Where is reclaimed press? Think of it. There it is. Okay. So let me just show you this one. This one is awesome. So we got that. This is like a vinyl machine, like the industrial reclaimed press. And then there's this is going to be also in a video game. But I love this one, this idea of and this kind of gets at the point of reclaimed press and why do it? Like you can start something that's just off the side of your desk, very little money. And then as it grows, like a WordPress multi site, maybe UMW blog started on Bluehost, but you'd never have to go through what Tom and I went through with rampages or anything else to get to the web empire state. And I dig that. But this is kind of very I love this one too. This is like a reclaimed record press happening. And as Brian said, that's dedicated WordPress music to is here. So anyway, I show you this because it's very indulgent, but we're still playing with this. Like this is, as you can see, like an idea that we're going to be doing, even if it's not like, oh, everyone wants a reclaimed press account, but it works just for the WordPress we manage and the direct demands we hear from people like Brian who want to get their WordPress off of share host, but onto something that's not a fortune in terms of managed. And it's that middle ground that we're trying to find a little bit. But anyway, what do you all think? And it's kind of in some ways sort of like reclaimed cloud too, where where this is tools that like we are using, right, like for our stuff. And I think that's going to be reclaimed press for us too, in terms of we host a lot of WordPress sites. So that's for sure. And I'm picking on like Brian Lam or even Lee, you like you all deal with this at an organizational level. And leave on you do too. Like you deal with this like at a university level. And I think one of the things is how do you manage these instances in a space that's kind of outside? And this is not new. There are things like Kinsta WordPress engine, right? We didn't reinvent the wheel yet again. But again, this is our kind of wheelhouse is working with institutions about like where they see the need for this. And the other piece which has us excited is we can have high availability across several regions. So I'm going to show you this because I can't stop can't stop won't stop. Okay, let me go here. I'm going to go and show you something. Yes, while you're while you're getting it up. So this I mean, as somebody like Shannon who is just going through a new WordPress multi site rebuilds, right? And then thinking to myself, why didn't we just do this instead? But it's almost like I don't know. I'm trying to like map map domains versus WordPress multi site versus this against one another. And it's almost like it's almost like an in between. It's like more flexible than a WordPress multi site. Well, and you can run a WordPress multi site here, right? Yeah, that's the other thing like I would run a big scalable WordPress site and right now we have data centers in Canada, Virginia, Oregon, and probably eventually in the UK and Europe and then who knows but like you can now create a WordPress that's fell over in several of these regions. So say you have a dot edu like Georgetown dot edu or whatever this now is so sure you could do the want like you want to do something that does some e-commerce and you want it to be snappy or you want something that's industrial and you want it to be able to fail over across three different regions and it has to be up, which is now we've kind of thanks to cloud flare in our reclaimed cloud we've been able to get into that business a little bit. And that's pretty cool given the fast cheap and like, you know, DIY out of control we were versus now fast cheap and maybe super enterprise-y like I might get a five from the next one because like it's kind of like cool to see stuff like scale that yet is still kind of off the side of your desk that an ed tech can run and manage and do it in a way that's, you know, basically putting a nice face on top of the cloud something like AWS which is unusable for most of us yet this is manageable and we could actually share it and scale it with the people we have to run this across, you know, our university, you know, are we whatever it is our organizations, etc. So I'm excited about that piece because it's kind of like what we were doing but now we have the tools to do it, you know, like industrial right like we got the good instruments finally. That makes sense. Thank you. I like you, Lee. Anyone else? Questions? You want to see more special things you want to see? You let me know. Tom put a question, is it fair to describe it as a simplified WordPress focus interface to Reclaim Cloud like a concentrated user interface? It is. I think that's absolutely fair. And I think the nice thing just like with Reclaim Cloud is it makes collaboration on instances as you have done when you work with clients easy but also ownership of those instances easy. So say you set up stuff for a university or a group or you're an agency and you want various WordPress instances that you run for people but you want them to have access to this nice front end. Like that's it. So like just say your group is dealing with providing, you know, bespoke WordPress instances for a community and each of them have different managers. You know, it's kind of like you were saying, Lee, it's like WordPress multi site in some ways, but it's very different in other ways in that it's a single WordPress that you're giving people control. Tom, go for it. So if I'm running it centrally, I can have all the installs across and then I can give individual people access. So in that way it's almost like WHM overview to the WordPress stuff. Exactly. But yet they have the interface you have. Like you can have the kind of like more industrial interface or the WordPress experience interface is what they're calling it, but then they could have it. So like when someone goes on, you're like, yeah, here's your instance, right? If they want to do stuff like adding plugins or like modifying HT access and they don't want to go to you for all that, you know, but then you can have real limits that they can't turn off the instance or they can't do this or like so you can granularly control what they kind of can't do. Or I can just add them to WordPress and they have none of it. Yeah, if you don't want them to have any of that, then they don't need it necessarily, but it is nice to be able to kind of granularly. It is nice to for folks that want that and you can give them that ability whereas in cPanel, you can't really accomplish that without giving them the entire credentials to your cPanel or setting up like special FTP access, but that can be kind of tricky and then maybe they're not, maybe they don't have an FTP client of choice. Then you go down that rabbit hole or is it going to be like, just go to this website and log in and here you go. You'll be able to get access to the things I've given you access to. Well, I like it because it is an easier thing to give people than I think Reclaim Cloud, especially if it's just WordPress anyway. Reclaim Cloud is good and I use it on the things, but it always takes me like a few minutes to be like, where the hell am I? What's the file structure again? Because I'm not in it every day. I just use it with certain projects. And I imagine that'd be the case with a lot of the people I'd be pushing to the elevated stuff. But for us, it'd be good for the grant things, which I think has been noted in the chat, like a communally owned stuff would be good. I find it more and more of our faculty are creating like textbook related sites, which they're very worried about staying up, which, you know, I would rather not have on the Domain of One's own stuff. And then for some of those things, like we saw at VCU, like the digital histology site and some of those other high traffic, high drama ones would go in here pretty nicely. And I feel good about that. But it's great for high traffic, high drama sites, but even for that, Tom, I think about it, like when someone has to invite a developer in or whatever on cPanel, it's a mess. Like, because there's only like, you have to give the same credentials and like, you know, here you can offer a public key, put it in there and then revoke it or like, you have real good options to give someone access to do what they need to do if they're professional and vetted. And I think that's nice. But also, you know, if it almost is for that person who knows enough about WordPress to be dangerous, and is kind of like into that, but at the same time, you know, doesn't really want to worry about the server stuff, it doesn't really care about any of that backend. But once the application has comfort there and wants to live there and feel like they have some control, I think that's where it could be nice. The backups is also slick, I have to say. Yeah. And I like the idea too, with the collaboration stuff that you're talking about too, it also means that like the concept of ownership is a lot easier to modify, right? Whereas like, if you've got someone who's like, all right, I made this textbook website as part of a grant, it's in domain of one's own, I'm now leaving to go to another school. The questions that need to be answered are kind of significant, right? It's like, does it leave our domain of one's own? And where does it go to? They make a shared hosting account and reclaim and we have reclaim migrated, or are they going to go someplace else? And you still have all of those options in ReclaimPress, right? You could leave. But if it's in ReclaimPress, it's a matter of like, all right, give us the email account that you wanted to now be associated with, bam, done, right? Like there's no actual migration that needs to happen. They just need an account in the system, in the ReclaimPress system to be able to own it. And that can be really handy for, again, these kind of like, there's so many WordPress sites that get to that. And I always kind of view it as a success, right? Like if you take a site and you hosted it on shared hosting for $30 a year and then you're like, this is actually important to me now and it gets a lot of traffic, like that's a cool problem to have. And we don't always have like easy answers to that problem. And I think this is one path forward there, which is like, yeah, we have a good service that's going to be easy to use that will give you all the scale that you want. And we were talking about this a little bit beforehand, but it sounded like getting stuff that's already online or within the Reclaim Cloud ecosystem into this is pretty straightforward. Like you're muted, Jim. You're not good at this thing. Muted and gypsy. So I do, it's not that I'm not muted. I just need some time to start before I, so that was me just starting. I wasn't saying the second chance. So I, for that, I mean, I have found we're using playing with some like migration has been on our minds. These MU migration plugin, which I really like that it makes it really easy to pull a single site out of WordPress multi site into its own, or also bring a single into a multi site both ways. So some of that could be made easy. But, you know, if you're familiar with SSH Keys, which I'm kind of working my way through and I'm getting there, that makes the connection really easy to move stuff between. I just moved Bob of Tuesdays before this from one Reclaim Cloud or two Reclaim Cloud environments, because it's a multi region into two regions over in Reclaim Press. And once I had the commands, it was easy. What we're thinking about trying to do, and this is kind of our dream. And so we would love to know what other people think. Taylor, I don't know if you want to talk more about it, but like, how to make that migration simple so people can see the difference, right? So Taylor, I'll let you take it away. You've talked about this today in the meeting of a tech meeting. I've been thinking about this constantly since you've been talking about Reclaim Press, because I think this is something that is unnecessarily hard. And I don't know if we can solve it, but I could see a technical path forward that could make sense. But it's just a matter of like, all right, we'll start working on it and does it work? And can we maintain it and all that stuff? But to me, there's like, there's two ways to migrate a WordPress site. Basically, there's the plugin things where you, you know, use like updraft or WordPress on one. And those are okay. But in our experience at Reclaim, they work like, I don't know, 60% of the time, like they work for most sites. The problem is most of the sites that you're actually migrating are usually complicated and they don't normally work with complicated sites. So at Reclaim, we're always doing things the manual, not always, but almost always migrating WordPress sites manually. So we're, we're dumping the database, we're zipping up the entire file structure, we're moving it to the new place, we're unzipping and restoring the database. And then we're going through and manually going through configs. And that sounds awful. I mean, we're pretty used to it now. It's not awful, but you have to learn a lot of things, right? There's like, you have to learn about like R-sync and SSH keys and all this stuff. And almost all of the tools, actually not almost, all of the tools are command line based. And we're starting to see more helper tools like the MU migration tool that Jim just mentioned, which is a tool by a company called TenUp. And it, it, it works as a WP CLI package. And so it kind of does a lot of what we would do manually, but it's talking to, it's, it's, it's reading the WordPress config and database to answer a lot of the questions that I would do by like pouring through a config file. And so we're looking at that and also some stuff that Virtuoso has done. And my dream is to have a add on basically in Reclaim Cloud and Reclaim Press that you could click a button and essentially give it a URL for a WordPress site and give it SFTP credentials, which we would then say, you know, here's, here's where you find those and where you could click a button and it would port a copy of a site from either domain of one's own or shared hosting and give you, here's, here's that site. Now it's in Reclaim Press at some temporary URL basically. So I guess it wouldn't have to be temporary, but some, some new URL so you can compare this is where it is now. And this is where it is on Reclaim Press and see, is this better? What would it cost? All of that stuff. And I don't know if it's, if it's something we have the capability to do yet, because I've only just started poking at it, but I think it's possible. And that I think would be huge because I think up until now to do that for Reclaim Cloud didn't make any sense because it was sort of like, well, you know, to run a site yourself in Reclaim Cloud, you need to be comfortable with the command line a little bit. But I think we're, we're getting to the point with Reclaim Press where that's not necessary. So now I think we need a migration story that's sort of at least somewhat automated. And yeah, I don't know. It's something that is on my radar that I want to play around with and, and the team's radar, but I don't know, no promises, but it's the dream. Brian, how are you? Yes, go. Sorry, can I just add one thing to that? For me, like whenever I'm migrating a site, I always make the same mistakes. I've been making them for years and years. I don't test the contact form that it works. You know what I mean? Stuff like that. I wonder if there's a, you know, there's the migration hit list, but there's also the, here are the gotchas. Come on. You always make these mistakes. You know, here's just, here's a list of stuff that would help me out anyway. You know, things like caching, you know, every time, every time. Great. I mean, and the point that I, we're dealing with this right now, Brian, right? Permissions, right? Like, is it permissions? And the caching has, because the nginx instance on ReclaimPress has very significant caching as we learned, Brian, and as Taylor was attesting to today. So that can create, like, is it working? Like, so anyway, that's where, where you're nowhere in the process. And Brian, I'm glad that you were, you were willing to be a guinea pig as we, as we pushed it over, but it is fast. And your experience there was great. We just got to figure out some of that style stuff, which we will today. It is caching. That'd be insane. So that's super cool. But like, for example, pressbooks, right? This is a server. Like, you get root access if you're into pressbooks. That's like, you could do that here, and it would scale and it would, you know, separate it out from the rest of the thing. So absolutely, Shannon, to that point. And, you know, I like it because it doesn't, you can have an IP address should you need it for various reasons, but you don't necessarily need one. So for those instances of WordPress that do have to be performant, but there's not a budget for, it's that perfect space at the point where it starts scaling bigger, which is where we're concerned because we want to make sure sites like rampages or oh, you create WordPress multi-site or whatever, we want to make sure that these 1000s of people hit it, it's working. And so that's the kind of scaling we want. But any single one site could scale to that on this space. Which for me is the story, I think. No migrations, no moves. No, we're gonna have to change the IP address. We're gonna have to move DNS. Single sign-on, is it gonna work for a while? Like, all of that goes away. And if you're on the other side of the kind of counter when it comes to doing that stuff, and especially when you have to manage it, that's a big deal, I think. Really, just in terms of ease of management long term for the stuff you're doing on your campus and beyond. Okay, that's seven, or no, what time is it? Well, in your, it's an hour or somewhere time region you're in. It's high on the hour, so we're mindful of time. But I just love it. If anyone is interested in playing with ReclaimPress, email me directly, Jim at ReclaimHosing.com or JimGuruMetGmail.com or just send a support ticket. We will give you credit. We'll give you an account. Play with it. Let us know what you think. If it's interesting, if you see real value of it, you want to talk about it. If you have recommendations, because again, we're still in the process of building this out. But we would love just to get feedback and see if this hits, or if there's like, we always find this when we do products like this. Like, we think it's gonna be one thing, like Reclaim Cloud, we thought people would be like, oh, finally, but no, it was great for our infrastructure. And that might be the case for this too. But we would just love to know your thoughts. We see immediate value for us in our day to day, but we wonder if this is something that the broader community would be like, ah, this solves, you know, this is an itch I've been trying to scratch and this will do it. So we would love to know that because we don't know. And we don't necessarily want to over engineer it before that. We just want Brian Mathers art. And for now, that's enough. Yeah, that's why that's why you come up with product ideas, right? Just to have Brian Mathers art. All right. Thanks, everybody. If you have any questions, I'll stay around. But otherwise, thanks for coming.