 This program is brought to you by Cable franchise fees and generous donations from viewers like you. Thank you. Good evening. It's December 21. And happy winter solstice. While this is the longest night of the year, I hope it is not the longest town council meeting of the year. And with that, let me just say that will take all of our cooperation. Governor Baker's March 12th order suspending certain provisions of the open meeting law allows us to meet virtually. Even that we have a council I'm calling the December 21 meeting order at 632. And I will call on each counselor so that they can tell us they can hear us and we can hear them. And then please mute your mic again. So we'll start. Shall we bomb them. Yeah. This a brewer. Present. Happy Angeles. Present. Darcy DeMont. Here. In Greece. Anarchy. Present. Here. Evan Ross. Present. George Ryan. Present. Here. Steve Schreiber. Here. Andy. Present. And Sarah Schwartz. Present. Okay. This meeting is being recorded. It's available later through Amherst media. And it is also a video. There's no chat room. If we run into difficulty. Please let Athena know. And we will, if we need to stop the meeting to make sure you are reconnected. Very quickly. There's a few meetings posted in the announcements. And I'm not going to go through those. And I also just want to make sure that you know that the COVID hotline is still up. Also, we urge you, if you're asymptomatic, but would like to be tested to contact you mass and go online and schedule appointment and go be tested for COVID. We have no hearings tonight. So we are going to be moving immediately to public comment. This is the only public comment of the evening. And I'd like to see a show of hands of those people who would like to speak. Okay. So let's get started. We're going to allow three minutes. We bring you into the screen. And please make sure you unmute your mic. And we're going to start with Pam Rooney. Please come in. State your name and where you live. Hi Pam Rooney, 42 cottage street. Thanks for, for letting us talk. As I understand, you're going to be talking a little bit about. The city council. The city council. I would like to ask the CRC recommendations for. Moving zoning discussion to the town manager and town staff to work on. And I would love to. Suggest that you hold off on that. And send it to them later so that there's a little more time for public discussion. And then we can have a discussion with the city council. And then we can also take time to. Use existing consultant fees. And have them directed to form based code and design standards for the town center. I think that's a great idea. Let's do it first. However, and make sure that. That the consultants engaged. The community. And also take the time to help us articulate what we really want to see. As a shared vision for the town center and the village centers. And then some of the zoning actually plays into that. And allows us to tailor zoning. To meet the expectations of that vision. I think doing it the other way around. It's a little bit backwards. So. If you do decide tonight to send things back to town staff to work on. I would. I would certainly ask that they not come to back to town council because they're good and ready. And have had a very, very thorough. Inclusionary conversation with the community. I think that's a good. Have a, have a good, have a good meeting. Thank you for your comments, Miss Rooney. Bonnie Isman, please enter the room. State where you live and your name. Hello, I'm Bonnie Isman. I'm at 635 South East street. And I'm here tonight representing the voters service committee at the Amherst League of Women Voters. We're excited to hear that you're considering rank choice voting tonight. And we would like to reassure the town council that the League of Women Voters is very interested in assisting in. Training our voters introducing them to the new equipment and the new voting process. The League of Women Voters of Massachusetts endorsed question two. So this is something that's on the radar for the League of Women Voters throughout the state. And so we're familiar with this issue. We understand that there's some question as to timing, but just to reassure you that there is an army of volunteers, a league of volunteers that's ready to help out whenever you are ready. So thank you very much and have a good meeting. Thank you for your comments, Bonnie. And Alex Kent. We state your name and where you live. Alex Kent, 83 North Prospect Street. I haven't read the recommendations, the CRC in any detail. Some of the reading that I've done on the Amherst Indy leaves me concerned, however, as a downtown resident, I would like to, I would like the council to encourage zoning that would discourage the building of five-story, large buildings in town, built to the property line that crowd the sidewalk and make downtown Amherst unpleasant for walking and socializing. Once we can do those things again. So I just wanted to state my view that those sorts of buildings, the kind that you're looking at, you know, you're looking at one East Pleasant Street in Kendrick Park. You really don't have a place downtown. Thank you. Have a good meeting. Thank you for your comments, Alex. Are there any other public comments at this time? Okay. Seeing none, then we are going to, in fact, move on to the consent agenda. And the consent agenda is pretty straightforward. It was considered to be routine and it was reasonable, reasonable to expect they would pass with no controversy. To remove an item from the consent agenda for discussion later in the meeting, asked that it be removed when I list them. And to remove the item does not require a second. So the motion is to move the following items and printed motions there under and approve those items as a single item. And to approve those items, I would like to move the item to the consent agenda. Eight G parentheses to authorize the president to send the memo to the town manager regarding DPW and fire EMS. Eight G three to authorize the president to send the memo to the town manager regarding update a financial model for capital projects. Nine a approval of town manager appointments to the following items. Agro cultural commission, community safety working group, disability access advisory committee, public arts commission. And 11a approval of minutes of December 7, 2020 regular town council meeting. Please let me know if. Full screen. Is there a second? Shain seconds. Thank you. Any further discussion? I'm going to move then for roll call. OK. Alyssa Brewer? Aye. Pat DeAngelis? Yes. Darcy DeMont? Darcy? Yes. Lynn Griezmer is aye. Manny Jo Hanneke? Aye. Berthie Pam? Evan Ross? Aye. George Ryan? George Ryan? All right. Aye. Kathy Shane? Yes. Steve Schreiber? Yes. Andy Steinberg? Yes. Sarah Schwartz? Aye. Kellyanne Balmillan? Yes. Yes. The consent agenda passes 13-0-0, no absence. We are going to move on to rank choice voting. And let me just start by saying that since we last met, there have been a couple of things that have occurred. First of all, questions were gathered, and those were sent to Tanya Lees, who is with us tonight, the chair of the commission, and Suadette, the interim town clerk. They have provided answers to those questions, and they are in your packet. And so we're going to start by seeing if there are any other questions from counselors or any other comment or statement that either Tanya or Su would like to make, although I don't see Su in the audience. Tanya, anything further you would like to say at this time? So while the commission would really like to see rank choice voting move forward, we would really like just to follow essentially the guidance of the acting town clerk in her ability to more realistically assess the different timing. But in particular, one issue is that it sounds like the voting machines could not be purchased until July because they're in the next budget year, which would make it pretty tight in terms of training the town staff and different co-workers on the new equipment and the new system. So unfortunately, I don't see her here. She thought she could be here. But we'd really like to follow her guidance because she really has the best sense of the constraints that her office will be working under to get all this set up in a timely manner. I'd like us to not focus so much on the date of implementation. We will be getting to that when we get to the rest of this discussion. And I'm glad to share that with you. But do you have other questions? Dorothy, Pam, you have your hand up. Is it possible for her to answer the questions because we have a lot of people in attendance and part of this whole rank choice voting thing is just getting information out bit by bit. It's too much to gather to get, understand all at once. Or is that where that take too much time? But I just thought it would be good to include that. We were able to post them and they are publicly available on the town website. So I'm reluctant to take too much time at the meeting. If there's any highlights from the answers to those questions, perhaps Tanya would like to share them with us. So one of the key things is that a voter education, and we think especially we mentioned in our responses the League of Women Voters would be a wonderful resource. And we heard the speaker from the public also reassuring us that volunteers will be on hand to help. So I think the town is primed with the recent ballot measure. It was actually pretty popular. It's passed with something like three quarters of Amherst voters. So I think now actually would be a good time to restart the voter education. I think people are really interested in learning more about it. So that's the main thing I would emphasize this time is just getting people thinking about it, maybe getting some material so they can start learning about it. And it could be a one-year process of learning or it could be a two-year process of learning and learning about it. And it doesn't hurt if it ends up being a two-year process. Then the town will be really ready to do it and really understand it. Alyssa, you have your hand up. And I just want to mention Suadette is joining us momentarily. We actually got through the earlier part of our agenda a lot, Pastor. Alyssa. Yeah, I was just going to follow up on Dorothy's comment. As much as I like to spend our town council time educating the public about what we're actually doing, I don't think it's an appropriate use of our time, especially given the length of tonight's agenda. And I do appreciate that the materials in the packet, although some of it the public would have only seen today in terms of the answers about the voting machines. The other thing I wanted to make clear is that because it was not clear when we received the initial presentation that really the only choices we have here are two. We have a choice about the date and we have a choice about the voting. And so we may have more questions for Tanya about that particular issue of the voting and the way that's counted. But there are not, when it says amendments, that makes it seem like it's a broad open field. But really, it's just two things that we would possibly want to amend. And I haven't heard any indication yet that we want to amend any of those things. But those are really the only two wiggle rooms we have. And I appreciate what she just said about the timeline, too. That was helpful. Hi, Sue. Welcome. Kathy, you have your hand up. Yeah, I agree with Alyssa not to make this long. My understanding also was that our decision was about a date. And when I read the background that we weren't going to get the machines to July, it looked like the recommendation was to not try to implement it in the fall of this coming year. So I just wanted to check. And my question is, the Attached Act, do we have to vote to fill that in tonight? Or can that just be done? So is that what we're voting on tonight? So there's a draft document with a new edit on the title. And the title of the thing no longer says Ranked Choice Voting. And I would move to back to you. Explain that momentarily, OK? But I just, that's what we're voting on tonight. So the sending it up to our legislatures with the Attached Draft Act, and it's got a blank right now for the date. So do we fill that date in tonight is my question. But we will be, let me give you the rest of the report, OK? Mandy Jo, is there something else besides the discussion with the legislature? Or can I? I did actually want to mention two things, and one of them has to do with the motion sheet versus the act that is attached to the letter. And so I'll be quick on both of these. Number one with the timeline, one thing, as a charter commissioner, I failed to mention last week and I thought I'd mentioned tonight. While the charter commission set up this timeline with the report back and the council adopting in time, in hopes that it would be in time for November 2021 elections, the charter commission at that time when it picked those dates of September 1 and then passed by the council by essentially December 30, 2020, it assumed once the council voted, that would be enactment and rank choice voting for municipal elections would be the law of Amherst. It did not, at that time, believe or assume that it would then need to go to the legislature for special legislation. And so the fact that that has been determined after the charter passed certainly changes would have changed potentially when the charter commission was attempting to put this forward as actual law. But I just wanted to put that forward that the charter commission assumed no less than nine months between when you knew it would happen and the first election. So that's number one. And number two, in terms of the act, the motion sheet has two changes to two different sections that I wanted to point out that's not in the original one. The first one is in section one, adding the word city known as before town of Amherst to again, indicate our actual title, just like the title changed to do that. And the other one was in section six and it put instead of an actual date on the motion sheet, it put that it could not be used, it could only be, the first election to be used would be no, the elections had to be 120 days or more after signing by the governor. And that was in terms of, I wanted to point out that I made that change instead of a specific date of enactment because it seemed easier because you don't know when you'll have a special election if any in municipal elections. And so you don't wanna necessarily say 2023 versus 2021 if you don't know there might be some random election in 2022 that it could possibly be enacted for. So I wanted to point that out as the rewording in the motion sheet of potentially how to choose the time. Thank you. The Zoom virtual background is available for your meetings, webinars, somebody please shut their background noise off. Thank you. So let me just mention that since we met last, one of the things that the town manager and I needed to do was have a discussion with the state senator, represent Joe Comfort and also with Mindy Dom, the state representative. And we did have those conversations. And then in addition to that, they have conferred with each other. And so I wanna summarize what we've learned, okay? The first is they're totally supportive of this. As it says in the letter, Amherst voted 58% for rank choice voting in the last election. However, that statewide referendum failed. And so therefore that is one of the reasons we have to go for a special act. They will do everything they can to help secure its passage. However, I just wanna say in representative Dom's words, the chances are slim to none of getting this through the legislature by July 1st, 2021. They don't even, every two years, the legislature is sworn in, they reorganize their committees. Those committees very often do not even start meeting to March. And I wanna mention that because the council also gave the rank choice voting commission a three month extension because of COVID, that still would not have made a difference. And so we wanna just say that we really appreciate the speed with which you did the report, giving you the extension did not change when this would be enacted. It also depends on which committee it goes to. And that I'm gonna explain in a moment the reason for the first, the title change and the paragraph that is in the beginning of the letter. They representative Dom is absolutely committed to providing us with a step-by-step outline of the process. There has to be no less than I would say eight to 10 steps just to get this through and get the governor to sign it. And they will also check to see if there's any other rank choice voting acts that have been passed recently. Unfortunately, the other bill that was in the legislature at one point was to give communities a rank choice voting option. Also seems to be languishing and not going anywhere. So finally, what we have tonight before you is a letter that changes the title and makes it very clear that this is a completion of a charter requirement. That title will also then help make sure it goes to a committee that is more likely to act on this as a community versus an election. The second thing is, as Mandy Joe mentioned, we made sure it says the city known as the town of Amherst and then in addition to that representative Dom suggested that we give a little bit of a preamble which is in the red part of the letter that you have in your packet. And that preamble basically says this is when the town of Amherst voted for the charter and that we have been enacting or taking care of and moving forward on each of the charter requirements. And this is one of those final charter requirements. So I think at this point, we should go to any additional questions and then also the motions. Are there other questions or comments? And Sue, since you've joined us, do you have any comments you would like to make at this time? No, and I'm sorry, I was late. I was under the impression we were starting at seven. So I was just hanging around. Thanks for calling Paul. No, I missed the intro and what was talked about before I jumped in. So I'm not really up to speed on what's been discussed. So I'm just gonna be quiet and listen. Thank you. Okay, any other questions? And thank you very much for weighing in on the questions and providing us with the answers that you did. You're welcome. Anything else you would like to say? Tanya? I just wanted to point out, you're talking about recent pertinent legislation, the town of East Hampton in 2019, successfully passed their ring choice voting special act. And that seemed to surprisingly smoothly that we heard it's gonna maybe hit some hiccups, but it seemed to go okay. So packing in with them, if they have any tips on helping get through or maybe some advocates that could assist with it. Thank you. And actually, Mandy Jo did some research on their letter. And that was part of what helped fashion the letter that you have before you. Darcy, you have a question? Oh, the letter I read in the packet does urge attempting to get it through for the 2021 election. Does it not? Yes, but that's because they wanna file this now, but they fully, and I do mean fully expect that it could take at least until next fall to get it done. So yeah, no, I understand that. I just wanted, from the perspective of a ton of Amherst residents who voted for the charter based on a number of these elements in the charter, including rank choice voting, wanna make sure that best case scenario is in there. And we, thank you, Darcy. I think it's very important for people to understand we're trying to do everything we can to get it through as fast as we can, including taking the advice of both the Senator and the representative in terms of the letter, et cetera. But they wanted to be very realistic with us as well. Mr. Bachman, do you have anything to add to that comment? Nope, okay. Are there other questions? All right, so then we have two motions. One is in accordance, and I'm going to make the motion and seek a second, but I am not going to read the full act that's in your packet. In accordance with charter section 10.10 to adopt council order 21-33, an act relative to rank choice voting and municipal elections in the city known as the town of Amherst as proposed and recommended by the rank choice voting commission as follows. And you'll notice that in the actual thing then, we change it to an act relative to the implementation of elements of the charter or the city known as the town of Amherst. And it goes on then. Is there a second? And a key seconds with the amendment that the council order title and the motion be changed to. I, thank you. I'm reading that I'm going, not okay. An act relative to the- We just missed it in that one spot. Yep. We were doing these rewritings today. All right. Is there any other questions or at this time? Alyssa. I'm sorry I was trying to hit my question earlier, but the question that I mentioned earlier in terms of really the only other thing we can adjust other than the date, Tanya outlined helpfully for us in writing as being in section three A. And honestly, I don't think I understand it based on some other comments that were made at the rank choice voting presentation. So I want to make sure I'm really clear on what it says. So I'm not doubting what we're going to vote at this point. I don't think, but given that this is literally the only thing we could adjust, I would like to know this. It reads now for each contest, the ballot must allow a voter to mark rankings for at least the smaller of option one, the number of seats plus two, or option two, the total number of declared candidates plus write in candidates. So a couple of questions about this. One is that we talked about the fact that write in candidates, sometimes there's an official campaign, people know about the writing candidate, they've been given instructions, blah, blah, blah. Other times it's something that happens like right before the election and they haven't even tried working with the clerks office and they're just able to do that. We talked about the fact that at one point there was the rule that however many seats there were, there had to be blank spaces for X number again of write-ins. Like you didn't just say, oh, if it's eight seats or if it's two seats, you always get to put two lines for candidates for write-ins. The number of candidate light in votes. I'm trying to understand the intersection of the number of lines that we have on the ballot versus the number of lines of people that we can rank because it sounds to me like, and I'm sure Tanya can help me out here, it sounds to me like those two things are not equal. And so you don't have a grid that has six candidates, four write-in spaces and 10 rankings. You might have only four rankings or the number plus two or the number plus write-in and I don't know how to interpret and I don't understand who makes the decision. And so are we offering this to the legislature for them to tell us how it's gonna work? Are we saying the board of registrars gets to decide how it's gonna work, who makes this decision and why do we need this at all? So lost. Sue, I believe last two weeks ago you answered this based on state law. So let's start with Sue and then see if we can be helpful. Yeah, let's, sure, Alyssa, you're right. So if there are three seats for a race, then we have to provide three lines for write-ins. That is state law. So going beyond that, Tanya can explain on how we came up with how many rankings we're going to have. So say we have a contest with six seats and we've got six write-in spaces. Now you've got 12 places where you can rank. This is what we discussed on how far do we wanna go with how many rankings we will allow. Tanya, jump on, feel free to jump on in there. Yeah, and I think maybe some of the confusion here is what it should really say is not writing candidates, but lines for write-in candidates. A priori, there's no way of knowing how many write-in candidates there may be a lot. So the idea is we wanted to make sure we are providing an ample number of rankings for people to be able to rank here. Certainly more than the number of actual available seats because there may be a lot more candidates in that to rank, but you're also limited by the ballot size that at some point it just starts to become kind of silly. And so we came up with this rule to make sure there was an adequate number of rankings for people to use to express their preferences without making the ballot get too crazy with having too many columns. And I think that the confusion here is that maybe you wanna insert a word there that would clarify it's not the number of write-in candidates, but the number of write-in candidate lines. If I could follow up, that's exactly what I was looking for. I was hoping that was what it meant. Thank you so much. And so if we can figure out how to do that. And then my other question still remains, which is who were we giving this option to? If it says one or two as now revised, who makes that decision on each individual ballot? Is that up to the town clerk with the support of the Board of Registrar's or is that something like the legislators would decide for us? Or who decides that? Daniel or Sue? Well, I think it's just a rule. It's the lesser of those two things. Okay. It's going to be the lesser of one of those two. Right. So the only thing I really need to be maybe clarified in there is what the meaning of writing candidates is. But yeah, once you understand that, then it clearly there's no like other decisions. Okay. Although it's, what we were suggesting was is if someone felt that provided an inadequate number of rankings or too many, the town council could adjust that rule. But we felt it was a pretty reasonable number of rankings that would be provided kind of a nice middle of the road rule. So I want to just clarify, you're suggesting that in section three A, that for each contest, the ballot must allow a voter to mark rankings for at least the smaller of one, the number of seats plus two, or two, the total number of declared candidates plus right in candidate lines. And Sue, what, is there like a term or should, if the number of writing candidates equals the number of seats or something, it might be a simpler way to phrase that. I do want to, this has been legally reviewed. So it's not as if we're coming into this writing, you know, our own legislation. Yeah, but that doesn't mean it makes sense. Okay. So is, is that... Line spaces... Required write-in spaces, because you said it was a state law. So yeah, it is a state law. So like required write-in spaces. Or requisite. Requisite. Requisite, that sounds good. Oh, okay. It would end by saying candidates plus, requisite write-in candidate spaces. People will think they have to write in somebody, it's required. Remember, most people are not going to look at the law. They're going to look at the ballot and the ballot is what there will be education on. Just like every other time we ever go to the polls, we have an option to do writing candidates. It's just that if you write in, then you also have to rank them. Okay. There are questions. Mandy. Yeah, so I'm going to make a motion after I clarify what I'm thinking I'm hearing for the language that, you know, for language we've been talking about. But I just, I guess it's not a clarification. It's a example. So if we have, we have a school committee that's five members. If five people are running for those five seats, item number one on 3A would be seven and item number two would be 10 and therefore it would have to allow at least seven ranking spots because that's the smaller of one or two as this is written. If only one person was running for those five seats, item one would be three and item two would be six. And so it would have to be at least three because that's the, oh, no, wait, number of seats would be seven, but so one would still be seven. One stays the same no matter how many declared candidates they are, but number two would only be six because there's only one declared candidate and there are five spaces. So you'd only have to provide rankings for six instead of the typical seven. So I think that's what this says, giving specific numbers out there. And so if that's my understanding, given what we've talked about, I guess I'm gonna make a motion to amend section 3A. Yeah. So that item number two reads the total number of declared candidates plus legally required write-in candidate spaces. Legally required. Write-in candidate spaces. Candidate spaces. Is there a second? Ryan, second. Thank you. Is there any further questions or comments at this time? Mindy Jo, further comment? No, I just, I'm doing that based on clarifying what Alyssa and I were having trouble understanding last week and this week. So I hope this provides some clarity. Alyssa, further comment. It's my only further comment and I'm not gonna, sorry, I'm belaboring this because I got confused again when I read it again this week is the, if we wanna give that option, I mean, what do we want? I mean, in all reality, rather than saying it's gonna be the smaller of the two, we could say it's going to be the total number of declared candidates plus write-in candidates. That's just what it's gonna be rather than you have to pick it's one of the smaller of the two. But given the example Mandy Jo just gave that it was really only a small difference between seven and six, then it's not huge. It's just, I needed to play out more examples, I think to see it in action, to say, are you trying to wedge 13 rankings as Tanya points out on a ballot when, in theory, there are going to be people who say, if there are 13 people on the ballot, I wanna rate them one to 13. So let's be clear. We're not giving people that option. Neither one of these is giving people that option. If there are 13 people on the ballot, they're not going for five seats. They're not going to get to rank 13 people. They're only gonna get to rank, in this case of the, so there's 13 candidates for school committee. That means there's 13 lines plus five lines for write-ins, right? Cause it's five seats. So that's 18 spaces for school committee cause obviously our ballots are getting really big. 18 spaces, but they're only allowed to rank seven, right? Right? That's not what some people are gonna understand, rank choice voting to me. They're only gonna have seven rankings available to them. Could you please confirm that Alyssa's understanding is correct, Tanya? Yes, yes. Sue, anything for you? People don't typically wanna rank more than five or so they tend to run out of steam. So it tends to still be adequate for conveying preferences to have, at least a couple of spots beyond the total number of seats. Okay, fine, thank you. And I wanna thank you both for those examples and making sure we've clarified that. Kathy, you have your hand up. I think that last statement worked for me. So it's the ranking that we're talking about. So we could get the ranking number plus two in this instance. It's not that there won't be space for all the people, it's the focusing on the ranking. Very helpful. For any other question, I wanna bring the amendment to a vote. Okay, the amendment is to edit section three A, Roman numeral, small Roman numeral two, or II, I want to read the total number of declared candidates, legally required candidates. It's the total number of declared candidates plus legally required write-in candidates. Write-in candidates, I had it that way, but then I didn't read it that way. Thank you. It is the total number of declared candidates plus legally required write-in candidate spaces, period. Any other questions? Then we're going to vote on the amendment and then come back to the original motion. Okay, the amendments. Let me begin with Pat DeAngelis. Aye. Darcy Duvon. Yes. Lynn Grishmore's aye. Mandy Johannike. Aye. Dorothy Pam. Aye. Evan Ross. Aye. George Ryan. Aye. Beth Shane. Yes. Steve Schreiber. Aye. Andy Steinberg. Aye. Sarah Schwartz. Aye. And Shalini Balmillan. Yes. And Alyssa Brewer. Yes. The amendment has passed. So we are back to the original motion and the original motion is in accordance with charter section 10.10 to adopt council order 21-30 and act relative to the implementation of elements of the charter for the city known as the town of Amherst as proposed and recommended by the Ranked Choice Voting Commission as amended as follows. And then it goes on from there. That has been made and seconded. Is there any further discussion? All right. Then let's move that one to a vote and we'll start with Darcy DeMond. I'm sorry. I missed that. What are we voting on? We're voting on the full of the original motion. But that now- Oh, okay. Yes. Yes. Sorry. Yes, fine. Thank you. And your answer is yes. Yes. Thank you. Breeze Meyers. Aye. Hannake? Aye. Pam? Aye. Evan Ross? Aye. George Ryan? Aye. Kathy Shane? Yes. Steve Schreiber? Yes. Andy Steinberg? Aye. Sarah Schwartz? Aye. Melanie Balmille? Yes. Alyssa Brewer? Aye. Pat DeAngeles? Aye. That is unanimous. And the second motion now involves the letter, okay? And the letter, this is the motion and Mandy Jo, just make sure I get it correct since we changed it. To petition the general court for special legislation and to authorize the town council president to sign the letter, town of Amherst and act relative to the implementation of elements of the charter for the city known as the town of Amherst as amended, presented, requesting Senator Joe Comerford and Representative Mindy Gomm, petition the general court for special legislation set forth in council order 21-33 and act relative to the implementation of elements of the charter for the city known as the town of Amherst provided however that the general court may make clerical or editorial changes or a form only to the bill unless the town council approves amendments to the bill before enactment by the general court. That's a motion. Is there a second? I'm gonna keep seconds. Thank you. Any further discussion or questions? Okay, then we're going to move to a vote and Griezmer goes first and I am an aye. Randy Jo Hanneke. An aye. Thank you. Dorothy Pam. Aye. Evan Ross. Aye. George Ryan. Aye. Kathy Shane. Yes. Steve Schreiber. Aye. Andy Steinberg. Aye. Sarah Schwartz. Aye. Shalini Balmilm. Yes. Alyssa Brewer. Aye. Pat DeAngeles. Aye. Darcy Dumont. Yes. It is unanimous and we want to thank Tanya and Sue and the entire commission for your incredible hard work. We also look forward to coming back and asking you when we get ready to educate the public along with the league and all of the other people that Sue will be bringing into that process. Thank you. Great. You fulfilled all but one thing of the charters. All right. Belcher Town Road. It's time to move on and I believe we have David with us and we have John Tornick with us and we have Rob Morrow. Right? That's correct. If you would put the presentation up on the screen are you ready for that David? Yes. Thank you very much Lynn. Great. Okay. So thank you everybody. It's a pleasure to be with you twice in less than a week. Talking with you tonight about another exciting opportunity, another potential project for the town of Amherst. Join tonight by Rob Morrow, our building commissioner and the assistant director of conservation and development and also by John Hornick, the chair of the housing trust. We're here to tell you tonight about a very interesting and exciting opportunity that we believe is worth pursuing on Belcher Town Road, Route 9. We recognize you have a full agenda tonight so we're gonna move quickly through our slides. We believe there'll be ample opportunity for a deeper dive into the project in the coming weeks with the review by the finance committee and the CRC and we hope to bring this back to you in four or five weeks. We're really thrilled. I will honestly say to bring this opportunity to you to partner with the housing trust and really be proactive in trying to acquire what we think is a very developable piece of land on Belcher Town Road for affordable housing. We see this tonight as really the first look. So we are not looking obviously for a decision tonight but rather we'd like to present the project, get some of your feedback and then we hope to move this on to the finance committee and the CRC. So next slide. I'm not gonna go through everything in great detail. I think some of the elements of the project, I hope you've seen the slide deck over the weekend but suffice it to say that my staff and I have spent the last couple of months working with John Hornick, Rita Farrell, Nate Malloy from the town staff, assessing the property on Route 9 and we feel like it's an excellent opportunity for the town to move forward in partnership with the trust to create additional affordable units. We believe that potentially 40 units are possible and I'm gonna have John and Rob talk about that potential later in the slide deck. So property context, let's move on. Next slide please. So I think you're all familiar with the East Village Center. This property is on the east side of Belcher Town Road or Route 9 as you're headed toward Belcher Town, toward Echo Hill, if you will. It is outlined in red in the slide. It is near the Village Center reference for those people watching on the Zoom. It's near Cumberland Farms. It's near Florence Savings Bank. It's within walkable distance to Fort River School. Just to the east is the 20-acre Fort River Conservation Area which is identified on the slide, as well as the East Street School property, which the town has also been working with the trust to develop into affordable housing and John and Rob will say a little bit more about that in a few minutes. But the reason we're interested in this property is for all the elements listed on the slide. It's in the Village Center. It's on public transit. It's walkable to nearby commercial and retail shops. And the context really makes sense for the development of an affordable building and or more than one building for affordable units. Next slide. Just wanted to give everybody who has not seen the images tonight a sense of the property. This is looking east. It's on the east side of Belchutown Road, as I said. It's about 2.66 acres. I'll go into more detail on that in a minute. It's right across the street from Colonial Village. And you can see in the upper image that it is a flat, dry piece of property. It does contain two houses. One is number 80 and one is 72. And as part of this acquisition, the town working with the trust would acquire the acreage as well as the two rental houses. And there's some creative options we think that we'll talk about in the coming weeks, creative options for the reuse of these structures. Next slide, please. So as I said, here in red is the outline of the property. It's actually three different parcels. One is in the back of Flaglot. And then as I said, there are two houses on, so two out of three have houses on them. And overall, it's about 1.75 acres of flat, developable land, significant amount of frontage, 280 feet of frontage along Route 9, Belchutown Road. And we have a signed purchase and sale agreement, obviously with the appropriate contingencies. And we have completed all of our initial assessments of the property, appraisal, wetlands, and some preliminary development scenarios that Rob will talk about in a few minutes. Next slide, please. I'll turn this over to John. And I get the project need. This is John Hornick talking about the project need. A major lack or severe lack of affordable housing has been identified in at least three town documents that were published between 2013 and 2017. If you let your eye go to the bottom of the page, the table comes from the 2013 Housing Production Plan. In that plan, the town committed to a minimum of 250 affordable units over five years to try to partially satisfy the need, which really runs into the hundreds, if not thousands. And the fact is that less than 50 units have been added in the last five years. So the picture that was presented in 2013 of need has not really changed. And as people know in general, excepting for the pandemic, we have a very high occupancy rate everywhere in Amherst for all our rental units. And so adding 40 units is gonna help us. It's not gonna solve the problem, but it certainly pushes us in the direction of satisfying some of the need. Let me go to the next slide. Okay, so why are we doing this now? Well, one good reason is the properties become available. And I wanna thank whoever in town hall identified it as an opportunity. The three parcels that are shown were the third ones recently come on the market. And because of the total acreage, it really represents a terrific opportunity for us to meet that need for affordable housing. It's a collaborative effort, as Dave mentioned between the town and the trust. I really wanna thank people in town hall for all the effort they've put in on this. The trust itself has met two or three times in executive session, and we are very enthusiastic about this. One other thing that I wanna highlight here is the trust will consider bundling this property with the East Street School property in order to make a more competitive project for tax credit programs sponsored by the Department of Housing and Community Development. Without this, it would be more difficult honestly to develop both properties. The other thing I wanna highlight is that the purchase price for the Belcher Town Road property is actually below the appraised value that we've received. Next slide. Hi, this is Rob Moore, a building commissioner. So we have the three parcels that we would be thinking about combining for this type of a project. The most Western parcel is the a flag shaped lot that has the single family dwelling in the back of the property. That is a mid 1990s modular unit. As you can see, if you zoomed in on the development potential plan shown there, we are thinking creatively about possibly that building being relocated and reused on another parcel. Out front to the right, the most southeastern corner is where the number 80 is a 1930s single family house is located. It's so far into the corner of the property that we think possibly it could be repurposed as part of the development because it doesn't really get in the way of development when you look at the setback requirements and where buildings or parking would be positioned most likely. So here is a concept that is just to demonstrate that there is a nice possibility to develop this property. Certainly the developer that comes along will have their own ideas and be working with our land use permitting board to see that through. But this shows a 13,000 square foot footprint of a building up front with 60 parking spaces along the side of the building and to the rear. The wetlands have been delineated. So we, during our inspection period of the purchase and sales agreement, we wanted to confirm exactly where the wetland boundaries were and any limitations on development. We've completed that and we've contracted with a survey or two over the next six weeks or so perform the baseline survey of the property. Now these properties are located in the neighborhood residential district, which means our zoning bylaw does not permit apartment buildings in that district. So we would be thinking of this affordable housing project as a comprehensive permit under the 40B regulations. Up to 40 units, we believe is appropriate and achievable with the area that's available for the development here. Next slide and I'll pass it over to Joe. Okay, the budget slide. A couple of things to highlight here. First of all, where you see the line housing trust, $225,000. I just wanna make sure people know that those are also Community Preservation Act funds. They're funds that were awarded to the housing trust in prior years by CPA and town council. The next line CPA funds shows $600,000. We had originally requested $800,000 from CPA. They voted to recommend the entire amount of $800,000 to town council. But since they made that recommendation and I do wanna take thanks Sarah Marshall and the entire Community Preservation Act Committee for that recommendation, we have determined that we don't need $800,000 from them, but $600,000 will be adequate for us to be able to purchase this property. I do wanna highlight the fact that that enables the trust to retain enough money in its existing funds so that we can pay for the emergency rental assistance program, which we just extended for an additional six months and a liability that we have to be sure we will be able to cover. Otherwise, we might have had more funds to devote to this project. The purchase price is shown there. There are various technical services, the appraisal, a wetlands analysis and a few other things, legal fees, property management. And then the contingency is primarily for unanticipated expenses, particularly for the possibility that we may need funds to help resettle the existing occupants of the building toward the front of the property that Rob mentioned earlier. So we're looking at total expenses of $825,000 and between the amount that we're asking you to bond and the existing trust funds, we have sources that will equal that amount. I should say that the trust is responsible for all of those expenses. We are not asking for the town treasury to cover any of those expenses. They will come either out of the bonded amount or out of existing trust funds. I think that's it for me. Next slide please, Athena. So we put together an approximate timeline that we hope to work with the council to assess the need of course and the opportunity we are presenting to the council through your various committees. And we've outlined that here from tonight through a potential closing on 216, 21. We think it's an aggressive timeline, but it's a reasonable and realistic timeline given that we have achieved all of our due diligence on the site. And we believe it has great potential, as Rob said, to potentially create up to 40 units. And again, as John mentioned, the potential to bundle with the East Street School property and be in the neighborhood of 70 units total. I just wanted to end I think by saying that I think we're all aware of how competitive the real estate market is in Amherst. We have a number of very successful investors. And I think we're very fortunate to have stepped into this opportunity when we did before it was snatched up by somebody else. So we have a great opportunity to be aggressive in the marketplace, to work collaboratively with the trust. And we're thankful that the CPAC has recommended an amount. And as John said, we actually don't need the full 800,000, we're more, as he said, in the $600,000 range, and then depending on funds that are already in the trust's control. So we thank you for the opportunity for this first look and we welcome your questions as we move through the process. Thank you. Let me just make sure we clarify that the vote that will come to the council eventually is to proceed, but it was also to allocate the CPA money, which will be an off cycle allocation of CPA money. We have questions. Dorothy? When you talk about possible 40 units, does that include a diversity of family or group size? Because it kind of, I know that the drawing you gave was just for illustration, but it looked kind of like a motel. And I'm just wondering, is this an SRO or is there a second floor? Is there gonna be a mix and a sense of community area with the greenery? Those are the questions. Rob or John, do you wanna jump in there? Yeah, I can jump in. Rob estimated three floors. I think with respect to them, we would expect a mix of units. The housing trust will be putting together an RFP. I anticipate we'll do something similar to what we did when we developed the East Street RFP, which to say that there would be a mix of one, two and three bedroom units. The preponderance of units would probably be two bedroom because at the time we were looking at East Street and deciding what to do there, we found that at Olympia Oaks and I think elsewhere in Amherst, the longest waiting list were for two bedroom units. So I think that's what we've been looking for, Guarati, but it would definitely be a mix. Good, thank you. Patsy Shane, you have your hand up. Yeah, am I correct in understanding all 40 would be affordable? Is the first question of these or would you have a mix of incomes also would only some be affordable? That's question number one and I just wanna package it with two. Does the developer wanting to do this project also depend on them getting a large amount of money from the state, either tax credits or what we saw with 132 North Hampton Road? Valley DC is anticipating a huge subsidy for the building of the building. So is it dependent on that? So just the are all affordable and how dependent is the actual development, successful developer development on state money? David? Bigel, John, would you like to? I would agree. We're gonna be highly dependent on state money. When I presented this before the Community Preservation Act Committee, I said that this is one of the best investments they can make because you're looking at a town investment of CPA funds that will bring back probably eight to 10 times that amount in money from the Department of Housing and Community Development or one of its various programs. So the answer to your second question, Kathy, is yes. The first one I would say is it depends. It could be 100% affordable, but it won't necessarily be. In other words, when again, we put out a request for proposals for East Street, we said that a minimum of 50% of the units had to be affordable. But if the developer found a way to finance the project that included some market rate units, we would entertain a proposal for that as well. And I think the same is going to be true here. It may well be that at the end of the day, what we see is something like we saw at 132 North Hampton Road where 100% of the units were at least 80% AMI and many were at a higher level of affordability. George, you have your hand up and have not asked a question yet. Just wonder if you could explain the thinking behind bundling this with the East Street School, whether that's for sure, that's what's going to happen or you're just in entertaining that idea. And if you are entertaining it, why you would be entertaining it? Sure, George. As chair of the housing trust is the moment, that is my preference, but the housing trust itself will have to look at that as we develop an RFP for the two sites or if we decide to go ahead as opposed to having two separate RFPs. The main reason to do this in a single word is paperwork. For the developer, for the Department of Housing and Community Development, for anybody else who's involved, there is a ton of paperwork involved in these projects. Nobody wants to do these projects, honestly, if they're gonna be small. And when I say small, from having talked to developers and people involved in financing, small means less than 40 units. And the sweet spot people say is at least 50 units or above. So in order to get to that point, which gives us the best chance of taking advantage of housing tax credit programs, which as I mentioned in response to Kathy Shane before is the most likely direction we're gonna go in. In order to get there, we're gonna need more units. It might be that Belchittown Road itself would be sufficient, but honestly, my concern is that East Street could be orphaned on those circumstances. So we know that DHCD will entertain two sites together. They probably do have to be separately permitted, although that's up to ZBA, not up to us or up to me. But we think there is an advantage, or at least I think there's an advantage. Let me be clear about that if we can put these two sites together in a single RFP. Dorothy, you still have your hand up. Is that from before? Just a quick question. So the town buys the land and then leases it to a developer and then the town retains the ownership of the land. I'm just asking, will we get tax income from this property? Yes, Rob can answer that probably better than I can maybe. I believe we get tax income. It's based on the rental income since it's the affordable property. We get less rental income than we are there, be less rental income than there might be. Hypothetically, if it was a private for-profit project, but either way, the town does get tax income based on the rental value of the property. David, before you add anything, I'm gonna just add on to that question and say, so in other words, we would garner more taxes on this property by having it develop this way than we are presently. Is that true, David? Yes, I believe that is true. I mean, we're talking about potentially an eight to $10 million investment by the state that will be taxable, as John said, based on the rents that are charged for each of the units and in total. So yes, there are two rental houses on them right now that as Rob said, one is in the mid-1990s and the other one is significantly older than that. And again, I don't, off the top of my head, have the taxes that are paid on those two, but I think it's fair to say that, yes, we would be getting significantly more money if a building of the size that Rob laid out were built on the property. I wanna also make the point that in order to get that leverage, in order to capitalize on the state dollars and the federal dollars that come through DHCD, the town needs to show that it's active. And again, Amherst has an excellent reputation our percentage of affordable housing is strong. We have always been active in this arena, but as John said, and we all know from the various reports and the various meetings we've all attended that we need to do better. And the way to be in that game, it's really, we need to show intent and commitment over time. So we're talking some between the two properties. I mean, we might be talking, you know, north of $15 million of investment by the state, but it's gonna take a few years to get these going. So we're partnering as the town and the trust right now. We want to package these in a way and it hasn't been decided yet because of course we don't own Belcher Town Road and we are coming to you with this opportunity, but there will be time to figure out should they be bundled? Is that the best route to go? We'll get advice from our great staff from folks at the state level, but then we will decide on how to move forward, but we need to get some of these in the pipeline. We need to make the investment over time. So what the state looks for is to say, oh, Amherst has come to the table and put $750, $800,000 on the table for this property and they're also willing to donate to affordable housing, the E Street School Property. That's a significant investment that the state will look at and say, wow, you know, Amherst is stepping up to the plate again. And so my goal working with Rob and the rest of our staff is to try to keep feeding things to that pipeline, feeding things in so that it's not five years or seven years or eight years before the next project moves forward. So we can go back to Butternut Farms, Olympia Oaks, more recently, 132 North Hampton Road. We need to keep making progress year in and year out because this will be a few years even if we move forward on this. This is gonna be a number of years before we can leverage the money through the state. So that's what I think is exciting is showing the state how we are stepping up to the plate here with potentially two properties. Thanks. I just wanna emphasize because we've been asked by the public by doing this, we do not take this property off the tax rolls. In fact, we continue to get taxes, real estate taxes on this property. So I wanna, people have asked that question and when they need to re-ask that question. Cathy, additional question? Yeah, I just wanted to make sure on that point Lynn, is the land itself is no longer taxable but the rents and the building is, is that it that the, it's publicly owned land but it's got a building on it? Is that the way this would work? Or are we gifting the land? So I just wasn't sure whether we buy the land and then give it to the developer or if we're leasing it, are we? Well, none of that has been decided yet. It's way too early in the process but I did wanna just clarify. When the town, if the town moves forward on this property and purchases it, there will be a temporary while the town owns it, there will be a temporary loss of tax revenue. However, we will also again, decisions to be made. We potentially can continue to rent one or possibly both of the houses and that would be income to the town slash trust moving forward. And then decisions will be made about the long-term disposition with the goal of having the development pay taxes when it is built. And likewise, East Street School would do the same. Yeah, I should mention for East Street School where there's no tax revenue on that right now. In fact, it's costing the town money to keep the building up. So once we can get that into the hands of a developer, from a tax point of view will be much better off. I also mentioned that when we were looking at our original RFP for East Street, we decided on a 99 year lease from the town to the developer. And my guess is we probably wanna move in the same direction for Belcher Town Road. Okay, thank you. Shalini, you have your hand up. Yeah, my only concern was, which partially John has answered, is that we buy the land and then we don't have developers to do it the way with East Street School. And so what I'm hearing is that if we combine the different properties that we are likely and just wanna make sure that based on the past or like, how do we make sure that it will be developed and that we don't incur more costs and have more land? And are there other land that we own that have not been yet developed for affordable like East Street? Let me maybe add, if I could answer that last question first. The town owns land all over town. However, in our preliminary analysis, clearly the East Street School is the best property to be developed. Some of the other parcels that are unencumbered by restrictions are either significantly wet or have very difficult access points or for other reasons are not likely easily developed. And that's why the East Street School was the first one to really move out of that process maybe two years ago through that process, two years ago. And again, not to go into detail, but we did put out, working with the trust put out an RFP that we only got one respondent to and through that process, we identified some issues that still needed to be worked through on the East Street School. We're doing that now. And our hope is that if we can work through those two, there's two or three issues there that created some uncertainty for the developer. If we can work through those issues, clarify those and then put it back out, we have a higher likelihood that we'll be successful. This property is very unencumbered. Rob, myself, Rita Ferrell, who's on this call and is an advisor to the trust. We've all been out on this property, as we said, it is flat, it is relatively dry. It is quite developable. So we're very confident that we can move forward. Again, there are variables in state funding that none of us can predict or control, but the idea is to get things in the pipeline because if you're not in the game, we will not produce units. This is a way to produce 40 to 70 units in the next couple of years, if we're aggressive about this and active in the marketplace. Thank you. Any other questions from counselors at this time? I just want to mention to the person in the audience with your hand up, we've already had public comment and there will be no other public comment tonight. So the motion is to refer council order FY20 1-Numosign 21-08A in order authorizing the acquisition of Belcher Town Road property for community housing purposes and the Community Preservation Act Committees December 7th, 2020 special report to the Community Resources Committee and to the Finance Committee for review and recommendation to the town council by January 25th, 2021. Is there a second? Ryan, second. Okay, Ryan is seconded. Is there any other question at this time? Okay, seeing none, we're going to start with Mandy Jo. Hi. Dorothy Pam. Hi. Evan Ross. Hi. Kirk Ryan. Hi. Kathy Shane. Yes. Steve Schreiber. Yes. Andy Steinberg. Hi. Sarah Schwartz. Hi. Charlie Belmille. Hi. Alyssa Brewer. Hi. Pat DeAngeles. Hi. Darcy Jamont. Darcy Jamont. Yes, sorry. And Lynn Griezmer is I and that is unanimous. And each of those committees have been told that this is coming. We are going to move on to zoning priorities. And let me begin that conversation by stating the following. Tonight's town council is being asked by the Community Resource Committee to request that the town manager, direct planning department staff to work on these zoning priorities. And to come up with a proposal for each zoning amendment. The amendments have not yet been drafted. And I want to stress that the town council is not being asked to adopt any zoning and amendments at tonight's meeting. There will be future public meetings of the Planning Board and the Community Resources Committee and others if needed, where these proposals will be discussed. Planning Board and the Community Resources Committee are required to hold public hearings on any zoning amendments and to make a recommendation to the town council before town council votes on any amendments. And when the actual zoning bylaw meant or amendments come to the town council, each requires a true third vote of the council. Tonight's meeting is an opportunity for the Community Resources Committee and the town council to make a statement about what the town's priority should be as we move forward with drafting zoning amendments. With that, I'm going to call on Mandy Jo Hanneke, who is going to make a presentation and I believe you have slides. So, Sean, could we have the slides? Yes, thank you. So I'm going to wait till the slides are up, but as Lynn stated, the initial part of this is CRC has recommended in accordance with town council policy goal three, economic vitality, for the council to encourage the town manager to direct staff to develop zoning amendments. Town council, town manager assessment and performance goals that we passed in September, policy goal number three, economic vitality has a section that says to facilitate the review and revision of the zoning bylaws to promote diverse neighborhoods, affordable housing and new growth in downtown and village centers. That's one of the town manager's goals and it's how we put in for him to fulfill that goal. And so if we could have the next slide. We've received a lot of emails over the course of the weekend regarding these recommendations. And I want to clear up some misunderstandings that those emails seemed to indicate. As Lynn said, their zoning bylaws are not being revised with tonight's vote. There are no revisions being voted on tonight. If the vote passes, the zoning bylaws as of tomorrow and 14 days from now are the same as they are today. We as CRC was asked to actually provide the council with a plan for approaching zoning bylaw revisions. That was a referral from the council a little over a year ago actually. And our first part was that flow chart we talked about on how you actually do the revisions. And this is the final part of that the plan for zoning bylaw revision. So it's the beginning of a process. It's not the end of a process. It's not the end of a process. It's not the end of a process. The CRC, there's been a lot of. Talk about the CRC didn't do a community impact report. And that process is used when there's concrete proposals with specific language. And in front of the CRC, we don't have concrete proposals. This is a plan. This is to recommend. What priorities. The town council wants the zone, the city council wants the city council to do a review of the bylaw revisions made. So it's hard to do an impact report when there's nothing to actually. Analyze. The next slide, please. So if this recommendation passes. Here's what happens. The town staff. We'll go through the manager and start. Drafting revisions that may include planning board and CRC and then when those drafts are ready, they'll come back to the council for referral. We'll receive the proposed amendments and the council would need to then refer them back to the planning board and CRC for review, hearing and recommendation. We've done this plenty times before. Most recently for the revisions to zoning bylaw article 14, temporary zoning. At that point, once the referral is made, then the state process in the zoning bylaw amendment flow and then it would come back to the council for review. And then it would come back to the council for review. So that's what you've seen before happens. CRC and the planning board must hold public hearings that can be joint or separate. CRC would undertake a community impact review. The planning board and CRC would vote on recommendations and submit reports to the council. After the hearing and the review. Then it would go to GOL for a review on clarity, consistency and action ability. And then it would come back to the council for two readings at the same time. And it would be good to start with that. So that people understand that this really is the beginning of the process. So the next slide. This is going to show what our recommendations from CRC are. And again, this vote was a four to zero vote with one absent. Councilor bound millen was absent from this vote. And we have a timeline for these recommendations. And the goal of the first recommendations are to have. The first one is to have a proposal back to the council for referral back to CRC and planning board within about three months. Those fall into two general categories, improving downtown zoning and unlocking housing development. And I just want to read a couple of master plan goals and objectives. That relate to these two items for improving downtown zoning, the master plan goal and objectives. State to preferentially direct future development to existing areas. The master plan goal and objectives. The master plan goal and objectives. Are vital downtown and village centers that are walkable, attractive and efficient. The master plan land use strategies include encouraging denser development of appropriate scale and design. Undertaking rezoning efforts that direct more intensive development to appropriate areas and limit development and key resource areas. Encouraging increased upper floor residential development in downtown and village centers. And the master plan goal and objectives. Are vital to the family development projects. And this was also based, this improved downtown zoning was also based on counselor priorities that when we surveyed counselors, variously referenced. Fixing downtown and proving downtown zoning through a very variety of strategy footnote a changes BL district requirements, which at least four counselors mentioned the planning board identified improving downtown zoning as zoning is one of its priorities. Unlocking housing development. The apartments development package as we reordered them. In a apartments into SPR removing footnote M, the apartment definition. And then the non group dialogue items is the SDU by law, supplemental dwelling unit by law, demo delay by law and starting the conversation on housing type also fall into master plan goals, objectives and demographics and housing strategies, increasing the opportunity for infill development. And then also, revising the location of housing development in your services. Revising zoning regulations to make it easier to create attached and detached accessory apartments and duplexes. Out of existing owner occupied housing stock in all residential zoning districts and revising the zoning regulations to promote infill development and strategic locations. And the counselor priorities at least seven counselors. In that survey and discussion that the first meeting we had when we talked about housing development as a priority. And the planning board also identified unlocking housing development is one of its three priorities. And there is also. And I mentioned the master plan goals, objectives, strategies because we just adopted that and these follow it. So if we can go to the next slide. The six to 12 month priorities also fall into two general categories, improving village zoning and unlocking housing development. I won't go into the master plan items for the unlocking housing development again, because I just read them. But they apply here too. And some of them actually apply a little more specifically, including allowing two family houses by right and all residential zoning districts and reducing or eliminating lot size requirement differences for one and two family homes. Those are strategies specifically listed in the master plan. And I think that's one of the things that I think is really important is that we have to make sure that we have the appropriate plan that the council just adopted for improving. Six to 12 month priorities of improving village center zoning. And the master plan states to create one of its goals is to create vital downtown and village centers and to change zoning to allow denser residential occupying occupancy near existing services and public transit. And the village center planning was mentioned by a number of council members. And then the final recommendation is the use of consultant money for form-based zoning and design guidelines. It was mentioned as a priority by at least seven counselors. It has been identified as an appropriate use for the already appropriated money. And in the master plan and land in the master plan. It fulfills the strategies of using flexible zoning techniques for the future. And then it's also included in the master plan. It's also included in the form-based zone, form-based codes to promote mixed use development and revising existing zoning to encourage and include incentives for well-designed energy efficient infill redevelopment projects and developing design guidelines for multifamily dwellings such as townhouses and duplexes integrated into the context of existing neighborhoods. And so as I said, four to zero was the recommendation at the CRC. And then the final recommendation is to direct the town manager to present zoning amendments that promote diverse neighborhoods, affordable housing and new growth in downtown and village centers. In accordance with town council annual policy goal, three economic vitality in the following time periods. By March 15th, 2021. Adding the BL district of footnote B. Adding footnote A to maximum lot coverage and maximum building coverage. Proposed to revised. In addition to that, I would also like to add to that. SDU bylaw similar to the 2018 town meeting proposal, the demolition delay bylaw revisions, work with the council to begin a conversation on housing type expansion in preparation for meeting the September 1, 2021 priorities below, moving apartments to SPR and more zoning districts, removing footnote M. Revising the apartments definition and by September 20, September 1, 2021. The amendment be chilly by December 18th, 2021. That includes, right now we're talking about the city of Toronto. BC, lowering barriers to development of duplexes and triplexes, frontage regulations for residential zones, looking at the appropriateness of the youth table for BC. What kinds of businesses are allowed or encouraged in village center districts, food entertainment services, things that make community and meet basic needs within walking distance. Transportation issues, which may not be zoning. And for the use of consultant money, Brian second. Thank you. Now we're going to begin questions. Happy to us. You have your hand up first. Thank you. I don't have a question. I. First of all, I'd like to thank CRC for the thoughtful and detailed recommendations you've made to our zoning priorities. And also to the comprehensive housing policy. And while I support many of the recommendations in both documents, I am concerned about unintended unintended impacts of some of the recommendations. I believe that it is for its own health and survival and more Amherst needs to grow and it needs to change. We need more time to look at ourselves and actively decide which changes will foster and increase the economic and social diversity of our community, and which changes will inevitably impact the character of our community. I am requesting therefore that we postpone our discussion and the vote on CRC suggested zoning changes. So I therefore I move to postpone discussion of CRC suggested zoning recommendations to a date certain following a public dialogue session to be scheduled in January 2021. And postpone a vote on CRC's recommended changes until February at the, at the latest set of regularly scheduled council meeting. I understand that this is a plan for approaching revisions and I think it's time to dive back into the community and hear their voices a bit before we say hey, these are the priorities that we want to move forward. So the original motion has been made in second and there is now a second motion and that second motion is to delay the vote to a date certain and also to have additional dialogue. Is there a second to that motion. Change seconds. Okay. We're going to now have a discussion about whether or not we're going to delay but I also want to take the opportunity to make sure that other questions that counselors have regarding this presentation also get answered. But the motion that's been made and now the second motion to delay is the one that's on the table. I'm not, did you anything further to say about your motion. Not at this time. I probably will speak again but not right now. Okay, Kathy your hand is up. Yes, thank you. For those public as well as counselors who have been reading material CRC has submitted to us one of the I thought quite excellent documents that came to us over the weekend was 26 pages that tried to go through each of these priorities. I read through them. It may increase my concern that these are major changes and when we say priorities it's one thing to say that we want diverse housing. It's another thing to say, let's put a footnote a here and a footnote be there and one at one of them, we are talking about a list of recommended changes that have potential to alter the appearance and characters of mayor Amherst downtown village centers and all residential neighborhoods for decades to come. These aren't, these aren't small conceptual changes they were very specific. So I think we need that time and one of the wisdoms of the council and its rules of procedure was to create something called a public dialogue. And it was for complex issues where we could take an hour before council meeting so what Pat just proposed is that we set up one of those we're not taking a vote at the end of January, but we have a, and we could invite planning staff in to say explain to me how B works, how a works. And I, I had asked Lynn, and she was did post a memorandum done by Chris Bishop that's in all of our packets on what would happen added B to the BL district. And this was a 2016 memo that did some analysis so an impact beginning of an impact and said let's assume that each unit is 1000 square feet and I just looked at the new units that are being built they're more like 300 square feet and the most recent development. So they were generous on square footage. They kept the building coverage size of the lot limit to what it is now where you can only do 35% of the total space can be the building. And it was eight units 12 units 24 units on very small pieces of property with no provision for yards or spaces. So it's not a small change is potentially a large change. And there was a proposal to get rid of the 35% restriction on how much could be the building so we could potentially have the whole lot. So I think we're right out to whatever the existing sidewalk is. I think we need to be have a long conversation on why is that a priority. Why are we asking the planning department to come back so that's just an example on the other one I think is was brought to our attention or whoever wrote it the long document is the apartment changes are not small. So if you're building an apartment be restricted to 24 units in a building. If you want to go bigger, you have to come in for a special permit. We got a inclusionary zoning law says if you want a special permit and you're going beyond the maximum unit size or you're going to maximum building size on the lot. If you want to go bigger, you have to provide affordable units. So it's recommended to take that out of special permit and allow apartment buildings to be much bigger. And I've always thought there are inclusionary zoning, what's on the books right now is very clever because it provides an incentive. If you want something you've got to give us something back and it's called affordable units. So you could go a bit larger. You could go a bit wider you could go a bit taller, but you have to put in affordable, we shouldn't give that up. So what we're going to talk about our current apartments, and this is said to be the merit of it is it requires a mix of units we just talked about that with John Hornick on what with this affordable unit. Some, some one bedroom some two bedroom that nothing dominates and for those of you who haven't been watching builders like to get a maximum number of units out so some of the new units. They're about 300 square feet in the newest building, and they rent for about $18,000 a year. So I think we really need to have a longer conversation. Some of the ideas are potentially very good if we have a design. So that's why I'm strongly in favor of waiting to have a longer conversation and go through each of the recommendations and priorities. That's not how they interact. Before we tell the planning board staff to get to work on these we ought to understand them and all of us ought to be able to explain them, and we should probably vote on each of them separately, but that would be postponed the vote. I think it's critically important, because we have a lot of really smart people in town, who are planners, who are builders, who can come and talk with us about what, which of these things might work where, why, and how they interact, and we haven't had that discussion we just haven't had the time to have it. So priorities do set a work plan. They aren't, I agree, we're not voting on zoning tonight. But if we set these are the priorities that's going to come back to us. We better be sure these are our priorities. Why start here rather than someplace else. So I think we just need time to really read what was sent to us to learn more before we vote. I'm strongly in favor of the motion to postpone to first a public dialogue, and then two weeks later, a vote on whatever comes out as our priorities. Pam, you have your hand up. I'm agreeing in delaying but I do think we need more time than just a few weeks. One of the problems is we haven't agreed upon a vision. We have not agreed upon goals. The master plan talks about density, but every time somebody uses that word they mean something else. And, you know, more density. Okay, that makes sense. But I've seen some things maximum density, more greater density, and density in itself is not a good, at least not in our downtown. And yes, people said they were really wanted to have housing. But did they say they wanted that housing to be in the center of town. I think that some things have been a little bit loose there. I will point out that when Mandy Joe made her motion, some of the words that she used, and I was just, you know, writing them down as you said them were diverse, affordable, something about economic development and vitality. I like all those words. Okay, I didn't hear the word density. That wasn't in the motion. So I think that we really, we have a master plan. It's not a term that's like faith like it means something different to everybody else. I think that we have to really find out how much density, do people really want in the downtown how much change. So that we can agree on that. So, I mean there there's some things that we should do before we get into the into the weeds. Why don't we do have that dialogue about what our vision for the downtown is, knowing of course that we're going to follow the master plan in increasing density, but figuring out how much and what kind. Why don't we do the form based zoning code before we get into all those little details. Why don't we do the inclusionary zoning in a clearer thing so that we could, if we had inclusionary zoning in this past two years. John probably knows the number but we probably would have had 50 more at least affordable units, maybe even 100. And it would have been a little bit here and there, and it would have been what I think is the best way, mixed in with with other kinds of housing. So, I know this is just to get the planning board give them some direction, but if we say okay we're going to go here and this doesn't find this and this is okay let's look at that. I feel like I'm a little lamb just entering a shoot on a long, long walk to the slaughterhouse I mean, we're being guided we're being kind of guided along the way. So I think let's talk about where we want to get to. Let's talk about what our vision is and make sure that we all understand it before we do the details. Thank you. George Ryan. In her presentation, this is the beginning of a process process involves ample and repeated public comment and discussion. I assume my colleagues are paying attention. Well then, if we move tonight as I urge us to do will send this to the planning board and the CRC, both of those bodies will discuss in great detail. The priorities that we've asked them to look at, there will be more than enough opportunity for public input and comment. Many of the questions are being raised this evening by some of my colleagues will be addressed and answered. And also goes to GOL another opportunity for public comment finally comes back to the town council we yet another opportunity for public comment and discussion. So this idea that somehow we need more discussion and more public comment strikes me as is just mistaken. We are entering our third year of service. This is an opportunity for us to actually grapple with some of these questions and some of these questions are good questions, but we need concrete proposals that we can work with. And so let us not delay any further in terms of the process let's get the process started. Let's get some concrete proposals back to us and every step along the way there will be ample opportunity for the public to provide input and for counselors and members of the public to ask questions and get answers. Evan Ross. So I'm, I'm excited about considering these priorities I ran. The sole reason I ran was because of housing, because of someone who has lived in rental housing for the past nine years, who has dealt with trying to find affordable rental housing. I was motivated by trying to increase housing affordability and that's really what I think underpins these proposals and I'm excited about them I'm excited about, especially for someone who is single, moderate income and looking to buy a house in Amherst's house. The idea of diversifying neighborhoods smaller houses on smaller lots, the potential to increase duplexes. These are things that speak to people who are in my position, who otherwise cannot buy a house in Amherst and I'm telling you right now I'm trying to buy a house in Amherst and I cannot. And so these are proposals that motivate me because I see what they can do. What I would say is, is two things one, maybe pointed out I think very smartly, all of the roots of these which are in the master plan. And so, these conversations about, we need to have more dialogue we're having these conversations about we need a vision. But we have the vision and it's the master plan and these recommendations the vast majority of them were pulled directly from the master plan. And one of the vision that I'm sure Alyssa could tell us was a long process with lots of public input already. And so now we're saying we have to repeat a visioning process. When we've done that and now we're saying master plan gave us strategies, let's implement them. What CRC is bringing forward aren't just things that CRC thought of off the top of our head, we showed you in that addendum document, they're rooted in the master plan, and also in the 2013 housing production plan and the 2015 housing market study you know I think someone cynically said to me once, Amherst loves to pay for studies but doesn't like to actually use the results of that. Right. And I think we get frustrated by that all the time we spend all this money on consultants to commit studies. One of the things this is doing is pulling the strategies from those studies that were done by experts that they did the analysis that we're looking for that said, Here are some strategies we can use and so now we're taking them forward. To me, I don't think that we need to delay this any longer I think what we do is get to a point of actual proposals, so we can have a real public dialogue when we have actual proposals in front of us. But process of visioning the process of coming up with strategies, that's been done it's been done for the past decade, and now we want to move forward. I think we need to think about postponing because one of the reasons I like the idea of coming up with three month and six to 12 month priorities has to do with the timeline of the Council. You know, we have a lot on our plate in this last year of our term we have one year left some of us might not be here in next January right. So, January 2022. If we delay, and we don't send these to the planning board to the playing department until the end of February. And they need three months to put them together, and they don't get them to us till May well now we're in budget season. It's not a question till maybe July or August when we can actually start to consider these, and then I'm already envisioning people saying, well you can't do anything in Amherst in the summer or you can't have public forums or public hearings and important things in the summer no one's here. So now we're pushing it off until September October when many of us are running for office right the timing becomes really problematic and so I'm a little bit worried that delaying and postponing too far. I'm going to get these done in our terms and so many of us myself included ran on issues of housing and zoning and would be devastated not to be able to make any action on zoning and planning. In our first term and so I'm hoping that we can move on these tonight as priorities, and that we can have these really full discussions and this really rigorous public vetting that we all want when we have actual proposals on the table. Wow, so many things and trying not to repeat. I want to make sure I mentioned one thing which is that no one can say it's a fact that if we had a different version of inclusionary zoning and our bylaws that we would now have 50 or 100 units that's absolutely pure speculation. No one has figures on that because we know for a fact actually that many developers said we're not going to develop there if you're going to make us put in affordable units. Now we don't appreciate that attitude and we've tried working with people in many ways over the years, but that is the fact that having inclusionary zoning means you get no development that actually makes some people very happy. Rather than Amherst never built another unit in the town of Amherst do not let people fool you that is part of what some people would like. So inclusionary zoning has to be very carefully crafted which is why we struggled with it so hard over the years. And we're obviously not seeing it as the first priority here not because it isn't in fact many of our first priorities, but because it's so complicated to develop in such a way that we believe development will still happen so that we still get additional units and that some of them will be affordable, preferably in that integrated way Dorothy mentioned. As I stated at the last town council, I'm concerned with the paperwork we have received that says X number of town counselors felt this, we weren't surveyed on X series of things. And we were just given an open ended question. Many ideas I may have supported had I bothered to think of them were things so you could have added me in some categories subtracted me and others we had no limits on that. So don't take the numbers like too much of a survey result, but that doesn't change the fact that these are the kinds of things we've been talking about for years, as Evan said during campaigns and at different times. As I stated at the last town council meeting and others have mentioned we do have that vision, it is our master plan. And what I may be didn't emphasize enough, again, is that that master plan was developed by hundreds of people, over thousands of hours, not 16 individuals, not by a two hour listening session or a one hour listening session, not by 13 individuals who are serving in this role now most of whom didn't engage in that master planning process even though most of them were living here then. And most of them didn't serve in representative town meeting, therefore did not have to grapple with zoning articles prior to running for town council. So what we're doing here and I admit that you know when I gave a CRC members some grief about the fact that, although it was presented very well tonight in terms of what are we actually doing here, that was not entirely clear to the public, as they read these documents. But in fact, for those of you unfamiliar with the old process, and those who are conveniently choosing to forget it which is some of the writers we've had so far. There's an additional step to zoning that we never had under the old process. This isn't not talking about the postponing because I'm totally against that. This what we're doing right now is an additional step that has historically was not done in the previous form of government. So, while many representative town meeting members had in fact participated in the extensive nearly decade long development of the master plan through the comprehensive planning committees planning hours together process. Due to our lack of a formal process of implementation of that master plan, which I know we've heard yes we actually have done some of the things which is great but we haven't really had the formal implementation piece, as so defined. The first representative town meeting members coming into an annual or special town meeting each year had no idea anything was coming for zoning changes, until they got the town meeting warrant that already had an exact bylaw on it, and that's what they react to. Yes, certainly a few did pay attention to the legal notices of required planning board public hearings. And so therefore they had some sense of how things that developed before they heard about it because the select board was taking a position on a recommendation to town meeting and a town meeting itself. And sometimes the planning board report was available when the warrant was available and sometimes it wasn't available until the seventh or eighth night of town meeting. So this is actually progress, it may not seem like it to people I know that people are scared that this means we're going too fast, but this is actually more open. This is more clear than what our previous process was. Do I agree with every one of the priorities, probably not. So that's okay, because we're going to have all those meetings and hearings. I think that the planning board expressed frustration that their priorities, since the town councils come into place, haven't been addressed, because the town councils getting organized. We know we don't want to have all the hearings in the summer, as Evan just referred to Amherst has been very diligent about not just getting stuff done over the summer or during the month of January, when a lot of people are not around because the academic calendar. I've seen that listening to theories about what inclusionary housing might be listening to theories about what density might be is not a valuable use of my time, or of the public's time. We need actual bylaws that can be analyzed run through that process that CRC is going to use run through the the GL review. We can determine whether or not that bylaw as presented will execute the values we say we hold, or maybe the bylaw won't like we can say we thought it was going to do this but when you put it together with these things. That's a crappy bylaw, and then we'll vote against it and that'll be great. But if we don't do the actual bylaw development if we just say, Oh, let's listen to some more theories about how we might consider constructing a bylaw, we are wasting time. We need to move forward. Garcia. Thank you. Am I unmuted. Yes. I, I support Pat's motion. I see that we not only have this item on our agenda as an action item that that's been labeled as second discussion. We argued at the last meeting that we didn't even see a proposal in the packet, and it was not only unclear to the public what we were talking about as having been proposed, but that it was also unclear to the counselors. I do see that it now has been put in a separate document and we got a separate slideshow and has a title and so at the very least, I believe this should be considered the first discussion, and that we shouldn't be voting on it tonight. Secondly, I haven't had time to deeply analyze and think about the proposal or to get feedback from my constituents about it, which I value. And my son is home for the holidays after having tested negative. And I consider the weekend before Christmas to be part of the holiday. And to schedule a vote on a recommendation of a major overhaul of the zoning bylaw on the Monday before Christmas, in my opinion, is crazy at best and downright Trumpian at worst, and I think this council should be better than that. I believe that the process through which this proposal has evolved is inappropriate and potentially violates the charter, because the council is proposing to direct town staff to create specific bylaws without there being referred to the planning board first. And I request a KP law opinion on that matter. The Charter section 8G regarding the master plan states that, quote, if any proposed bylaw involves a matter addressed in the master plan concerning land use or development regulations, the town council shall first refer the proposed bylaw to the planning board. The planning board shall report its recommendations and writing to the town council on the proposed bylaw, in accordance with mgl 40 a section five, and so on. So the town council should not be doing anything other than referring a proposal to the planning board, so that they can come back with a recommendation to us with that's more fleshed out. And based on their expertise since we, by the way, generally don't have expertise on this and they do. The planning board was poised to make recommendations to the council on zoning changes in September of 2018. I was pleased to see that the zoning subcommittee had a list of priorities that seem to address some of the clear complaints that had come out during the town council campaigns, in particular addressing building height and setbacks and the provision of more moderate income housing. We were primed to amend the dimensional table so that it no longer would allow zero feet of setback for development in the center of downtown. We saw how that worked out because that will never that we'll never have a view of East Pleasant Street again. Down East Pleasant Street the planning board had a plan to submit a specific zoning bylaw overhaul within the first six months of the new council taking office. But then the zoning committee was dissolved as a result of a request by some counselors and the town manager in order to give the council a greater role. Having a zoning subcommittee of the planning board is a necessity for the planning board to function as as it was intended under the charter. How can the planning board recommend or respond to zoning changes without a zoning subcommittee. These proposals need to first receive a report from the planning board. I for one would like to hear the original proposals that were just getting started on at the September 18, 2018 zoning subcommittee and planning board meetings. The plan earth with the CRC need to start this discussion from scratch asking each counselor to submit his or her wish list when we have a planning board with experts who have already put together priorities in the beginnings of a plan. The plan planning board was created to serve this function. It's incredible that eight members of this council during the 2018 campaign pledged to the political action committee embers forward to vote to support zoning bylaw changes to densify downtown and village centers. Some proposals from counselors seem to clearly advantage downtown developers who of course want to develop downtown as much and as fast as possible with a plan plan to create multi story apartments that will house students. With the next foray into downtown development, I would advise to go slow and avoid what happened the last time with our first two tall buildings downtown. For example, why would we want to fast track the development of the west side of Kendrick Park, which has a beautiful and historic look before we develop the east side, which is a mess and is already in the core district. This piecemeal approach to developing the downtown doesn't make sense. Without a doubt and of all, how can we make decisions about how dense the town needs to be before we answer this foundational question. Are we planning to create housing for UMass undergrads in our downtown and village centers. Are we looking at providing in the 10s or hundreds of additional apartments, or in the thousands of units. If we are not planning to house UMass undergrads. We urgently hope we are not, and we are only looking to house families, town and UMass staff and retirees. We need many fewer units and they need to be designed with different outcomes in mind. Are we expecting folks to live there for one year, or for 10 to 20 years. If you are living there for 10 to 20 years you need more green space, a balcony, thicker walls for soundproofing, energy efficiency, and more amenities in general. I want UMass to take responsible for its undergrad students now and in the future, housing them on campus and in UMass student apartments, not in the downtown or in our family neighborhoods. We only support Pat's motion to delay and to have it to have a deeper analysis. I would actually agree with Dorisie that we need even more time than that, and to request a KP law opinion on what is the main motion violates the charter as I have argued. You Schreiber. Wow. That's a hard one to follow. I feel like I've missed a few meetings because I feel like we've, we're talking about a completely new zoning bylaw, and that this is a public hearing for that zoning bylaw we're not talking about that. We're talking about a basically a roadmap, a triple a roadmap as to that we're going to give to the town manager that presumably will be given to the planning department. But we think they should be working on as, as Councilor Brewer mentioned, this is the first time in the history of Amherst that the legislative branch has gotten, at least the entire legislative branch has gotten involved like this before this was primarily a part of the planning department and the planning board itself to set these priorities in consultation with the select board and the town manager. So this is this is completely a new process. We're all we're proposing here is a roadmap, a timetable, nobody is talking about any specific zoning bylaws. The other thing is we have a zoning bylaw. It's the one that's giving you these five stories buildings. It's the one that's causing all this angst about inclusionary zoning. It's the one that's causing all this angst about setbacks. It's all the one that's causing all the angst about the lack of balconies lack of green space, the lack of apartments for families, pretty much everyone who has spoken now has complained about the zoning bylaw. We have a zoning bylaw, a delay. The delay won't be until January, we're not going to get any more information about density, or you're not going to understand density anymore between now and January. You're not going to understand the implications of many of these proposals between now and February. It's just not going to happen. So a delay is basically a vote for keeping the zoning bylaw, exactly the way it is. So if you want to vote for keeping the zoning bylaw the way it is, then go to delay. Andy. I'm going to try not to repeat what has previously been said by a number of people, including those recently Steve, but also Evan and others in Losa. I want to add a couple of additional things. One is that we're talking about finding appropriate development and CRC suggesting that we need to begin a process that allows us to figure out what is appropriate development. And a point was made about the fact that there are some people who really secretly don't want development, but they come up with all sorts of reasons why we shouldn't do anything because they, but they don't want to say that we don't want development. I just want to remind people that we're going to be talking about the budget guidelines later this evening. And one of the problems with the budget guidelines is that we're getting complaints from certain quarters, because there isn't enough money. Well, what do we do about the fact that there's not enough money. One of the things we can do without asking voters for an override to increase their taxes is new development. And that is what the state law that governs two and a half is all about. It creates the exception for new development. And if we want to be able to do what is important for this community and not ask our voters for an override and not devastate some of our other existing programs. We have to always be thinking about what is appropriate new development and delaying the process of having that conversation just delays the whole end result of that to the point that it doesn't serve any purpose because it's going to force us to make horrible budget choices before we ever get there. And I think that the other thing that was alluded to a little bit, but isn't it going to expand on it is that we are counsel that is nearing the end of its term future councils are going to be two year terms. I think that all of us look at the state legislature and look at the Congress and recognize that on both the state and federal level. Things don't move very quickly because every two years there's a turnover and membership. And as there's a turnover and membership or reappointment of leadership and a reappointment of committees. And we just heard about that a little bit with rank choice voting. I think that councils are not exempt from that reality. And the we had the luxury in our first year because we were trying to organize new form of government also of being the only three year council that's ever going to exist. And if we can't move something within our three year term. I don't know how a future council is ever going to do it and delay on something that is really not more than putting off the start of a process just doesn't make sense. Okay, I'm going to go ahead and call and pat de Angelis. I'm not sure how to do what do this but listening to my colleagues it seems clear to me that my asking for a delay was misguided. And I would like to withdraw the motion and move forward with the original motion. There's two options. And I always look for anybody else's advice into Joe, anybody. Go ahead with the motion and we see if it passes the other one is that the person who seconded it has to agree to withdraw. Who is the second. Why don't we move to go forward to the vote then. Kathy seconded it. I'm not prepared to withdraw it and I just want to point out I would when you say that it's a vote to keep everything as it is. This is not a conceptual list, adding district to footnote be adding footnote a to maximum not coverage proposed SDU low similar to 2018 demolition delay this is a very specific list and Steve, if on the priority list you had said setbacks deal with the parking issues, you would have had a different reaction this is a set of priorities where we're taking staff in a particular direction. So there is a vision. I spent the entire weekend just so people know I would be thrilled with smart development smart growth and airmors, which was balanced, which was saying we want to do. Steve said take a look at triplexes and duplexes so I found them in Bend, Oregon, with unbelievable. They said you've got to have 258 square feet of open space with your little complex. You should have balconies they drew some pictures of what they could look like I'm pretty small lots, but they were quite beautiful. So I don't think we're saying you just can't do anything. We just don't want a list that seems to my best analogy is is clear cutting a forest or strip strip mining, you know just coming and saying more waivers. This provision, get rid of this, rather than a vision and I just the last thing Andy when you say growth. We have an incredible urban history in the United States that proves to you that just denser growth rather than balance growth does not solve fiscal problems, it just doesn't. And one of the interesting things I found in Bend and Dartmouth has this in Hanover is they have impact fees. So when a new developer comes in, they have to finance sewer water schools, other kinds of expansion things. So it's not. So there are ways of thinking of really creative, bringing downtown to life. And I just don't think this is the list. I think if you had come up with another list. Just us all for our priorities, I sent in a very detailed one, not a single one of those got on this list. So there was some kind of a process and CRC I don't know whether you put lots of detailed ones if you said detailed. I think we would have come up with some of the ones for zoning subcommittee. So I don't think we're asking for not doing anything. We're asking for a creative list, and I would be happy to vote for a list that has some different things on them, with a cohesiveness to them. This is where we're going and these three things go together and the planning staff. So I would be willing to go there. I'm not anti development. I did not run on that. I just think how we develop really matters a lot. And we need to be smart about it. I respect the people on this committee. So I would like to put this to vote, rather than just rescind it and not go down on a vote on, it was a two part, and I could give it to you in specific language. I would like to postpone the discussion of this priority list to a public dialogue on January 25, where we invite others planning staff and to talk about this specific list to understand it better, and then postpone a vote on the priority list, and it could be a change on the priority list on February 8. So it's a two part postponement. It's not to not do anything, but to be very careful that all of us can explain why do we think starting with footnote B, and a change in the way we define departments, and a change in the land is the right way to start. Where we start and Steve I love your thing about a triple a roadmap. Most road mods start from someplace and bring you to someplace. If I don't like where it's bringing me, I want to start in a different place so I would really like a very thoughtful discussion. Before we put these priorities to a vote and I, and when we do put them to vote I'd like us to vote on each one of them, rather than a package. They're not bad ideas. So I'm not saying they're all not good ideas but really come back to it. So I would like to keep that motion active, and we can put it to a vote. All right, Melanie, you haven't spoken yet. Oh, I'd be happy for Steve to respond first. Yeah, thank you, Councilor Shane for that explanation and I definitely if we were voting tonight on footnote a, I would be very much against that because it hasn't been fully vetted. So for the triple a map. There are many different ways to get from here to New York City, right. So, I think that footnote be as an abbreviation for in footnote a, even, even a more interesting one footnote a, it's an abbreviation for footnotes that would not be obstacles to achieving the town's goals regarding sort of sensible. What I consider to be sensible development. And in particular the area of concern is one that everybody loves to talk about is the BL zone. So it's sort of head slapping if you read Chris Prestrup's memo that you cannot put a single unit not one single unit of housing on into the BL zone, until you get half an acre. Now that's astonishing there's no other part of Amherst where we have that low density. And here we have that right in the center of Amherst so I'm not going to get. So, you know, the policy and the groups that are involved in this have talked about, you know, many different tools that we can deal with to address the issue of housing both in the, you know, the center of town, but also on those areas of BL which is meant to be a footnote is definitely one way of the overlay district of the 40 our proposals another way, you know, simply tinkering with the, the dimensional table, or, you know, some of the the use table is another way of doing that so footnote be a sort of an indicator that we need to deal with some of these obstacles that prevent really something less than the half acre zoning right in the center of town, you know, for one housing unit. So, but I appreciate that concern and I understand how the intense specifics, you know, for talking about footnotes that the footnotes are part of a larger body of something so it's not just a footnote it's referring to something much greater but I appreciate you explaining that concern, but it's still still the fact is that we have a zoning bylaw that we all think has broken parts to it, and that will be the zoning bylaw until we deal with it. So, I wasn't there at the meeting when this discussion took place but I did get to watch the video finally so it's okay. There's just like gazillion thoughts going through my head right now I'm going to try and articulate just randomly what's coming up. One thing that, for example, I'm hearing a lot of concerns is this is going to create five story buildings and whatnot like we already have the fact is that we have like many people have shared a zoning bylaw that is already allowing that. And the footnote be actually the document that we got written by Chris Bestrup actually shows that the three story buildings are not going to go any taller. So then the changes that are being even suggested that we start looking at them. None of those to me what I understood is that they are not talking about increasing the number of floors to beyond the three floors. So let's get that out of the way. The other thing is that I do agree that there's a lot of specific things that's hard for the public and hard for us I had to speak to a couple of urban planners to get a sense of and understand what are the implications what does this mean. And what I understood was exactly this that this is not increasing the floors and so forth, and this is increasing the density by let's say 12 more units, and it's not explosive or anything that big but I can understand that public and some of the developers do not have that understanding of what that is going to look like. But what I'm also hearing in the process is that this is, we are going to get a debrief and an impact study of all of this when it goes to the planning department to town manager. Am I right with that, that each of these is going to be discussed and broken down and explained in more detail. My concern is that when people are asking for a delay what specifically are we looking what are we going to discuss. We are, I mean, what we need is the is information and explanation and impact and all of that from the planning department. What are you and I going to discuss that will allow us to understand anything more than what we already know or don't know. So, yeah, and just one other thing is that why now in the as we speak we all are getting emails I'm sure from residents we're saying we can't afford the property taxes we're going to be evicted. We're hearing from people who can't afford to rent here our own neighbors are renting out and selling their homes to people so that they can be rented to students. The fact of the matter is that there, we are a college town, the demand is more than the supply and if we don't do anything this is going to be a town for only rich people. And now, by not doing anything, we are not fixing anything we can just keep going back and forth and back and forth that's what's been happening in Amherst for so many years is this discussions back and forth and, and there's kind of like a stalemate of nothing ever changes, and it's an either or kind of camps, either we for progress or we're not and then we just keep get lost somewhere. My, you know, my request to everyone is to think about to move forward what are the specific questions clarity we need. And can we get that clarity from the planning department. We already know what public really besides the people who come and speak and send us emails. There are people who are suffering with grants with property taxes with all these issues we know many of the issues already, especially if many of us who went on camp entrails and knocked on doors. We already know people want a walkable liveable downtown where this community spaces where we can enjoy we don't want more setbacks we want. We don't want buildings to come to the edge of the roads. So let's start talking about those things and come up with very specific questions of what do we want to see and how can we make that happen that's problem solved how can we make that downtown happen the way we're all envisioning because it's pretty similar I think that's what we'll have for now. Excuse me. Thank you. I'm actually going to take a moment to speak. Thank you. Yes. First and foremost, there is only one or thing besides taxes that make people nervous, and it's zoning. And what we have seen in this conversation, and in all the other conversations about this is people get nervous. Part of the reason they also get nervous is because it's not an easy topic to understand. So, I was in the room when we first started talking about trying to start doing something about zoning, well over a year ago, you were all in that room. And if we continue to just say, oh, let's talk about it. That's all we'll ever do is we'll just talk about it. We have a vision. I was at some of those meetings Alyssa thank you very much. And I also want to say that I think the document that was added to the packet for this meeting greatly improves and ties in our understanding. I want to thank both Mandy Joe and Evan. We're listening carefully and doing that for us. This is a beginning. And I will tell you personally, when somebody comes to me with a zoning bylaw, I'm going to say, what did it look like before. What it will look like now. And I'm going to go through all of the issues that might bother me will this prevent this from sitting right on the edge of the sidewalk. Will this give me an overhang what will it do. But I can't do that until I see a bylaw until I have something to compare it to. So, I'm not going to vote to delay. But I am, I am going to ask, and I know that CRC will do this, that when you come forward to the Council, when the planning board comes forward to the public, they do everything they can to make what we're hearing and understandable and understand its impact and allow for full dialogue among the community. That's my only request. Thank you. Pat, you have your hand. Yes, I'd like to call the question. I second. The question's been called. It takes a two thirds vote. That right. Yes. Okay. We move immediately to the vote. We don't have discussion. Just move to the vote. This is a vote to call the question. Okay. Dorothy Pam. I'm staying. Evan Ross. Yes. David Ryan. Hi. Nathan Shane. I'm voting on whether we just start ending debate is that what I'm voting on? That's correct. Yes. Yes. Steve Schreiber. Yes. Andy Steinberg. Yes. Sarah Schwartz. I. Elyssa Brewer. Hi. Pat D'Angeles. Hi. Darcy DeMont. Yes. Lynn Griesmer. Yes. Mandy Johanicki. Hi. The vote is 12 in favor, none opposed, one abstention, no absences. We're going to now move to the vote for the delay. Okay. Athena, would you please read the motion? Post-blown the discussion of the CRC suggested zoning changes to January 25 at a public dialogue session to be scheduled one hour before the January 25 council regular meeting and to postpone the vote on CRC recommendations until February 8th at the council regular meeting. That vote's been made and seconded. To vote in favor of this, you say aye. And that means you're in favor of the delay. To vote against this means you're not in favor of the delay and will proceed to the full vote. And we will start with Evan Ross. No. George Ryan. No. Kathy Shane. Yes. Steve Schreiber. No. Andy Steinberg. No. Sarah Schwartz. No. Shalini Balmilne. No. Alyssa Brewer. No. At the Angeles. No. Darcy DeMonte. Yes. Lynn Griesmer is a no. Mandy Johannike. No. And Dorothy Pam. Yes. The vote is 10 to not delay, three to delay, no abstentions, no absence. We're going to move on to the actual vote. I move to postpone, Lynn. Good. I'm going to just check. That means we, Mandy Johannike requires a second. Just confirm that Darcy's using her charter right. Yes. Is that what she's using? Yes. Then it does not require a second. One councilor can do it. The vote is postponed until the next meeting, which is January 4th. There is no more discussion. We're going to take, we're going to take a five minute break. Thank you. I want to just thank Sean Mangano for joining us. We know you were on vacation today. So this kind of is in this category of above and beyond. And Chalene, are you back? Please. Okay. We're going to get started. Andy, let me just preface this section of our discussion by the following. While the adoption of budget guidelines is the next step in the budget process, we are still at the very beginning of the process and things change, information becomes more clear. And we know that there will be opportunities along the way for additional public comment. In addition to that, there are also continue to be for four town meetings on the regional school budget and other issues provide an opportunity for additional deliberation. But the guidelines and Andy's going to introduce them are just a step along the way. So guidelines. Andy? Yes. Thank you. I'm not going to try and go into any great detail because it's a long document. And I think that tried to get it to you early. It's in, it's really covers the topics that were presented in the financial indicators meeting. The committee worked very diligently on reviewing each aspect of the recommendations made by the town manager and finance director and looked at the recommendations with great care because we recognize that asking the town manager, the superintendent and the library director to level fund the operating budgets for each of those departments was a big gas because it was going to be a challenge for each of those professionals to develop budgets to meet those guidelines. But when we looked at the other alternatives, we could not find that any of the other alternatives were better. The capital is still below what the target is but it's higher than last year but there's a consequence on capital because we had cut capital in half last year and so that there's a huge backlog of unmet capital needs in all segments and of the government in including schools library and town departments and our fleet of vehicles and our maintenance is just one year further down the line to where we would have been had it not been for the whole COVID crisis. So when we looked at that, it was difficult but it seemed like a logical decision. There were two other aspects of it that are going to come up and one has to do with do you ask for an override because we are limited in what we can get from property tax to a 2.5% plus new growth and there is some new growth. It has been paired back from because of the economic downturn but it hasn't been eliminated but it doesn't help us because there are things that are going up that we can't control and which is why we end up where we are and to ask voters to consider an override now seen to the finance committee to be something that we couldn't recommend to the council that it asks the voters to do and then the last piece is saying that our reserves are partially a rainy day fund and should some of it should be made available. I think that the problem that we grapple with there is that we have made a big commitment to form major building projects and a large part of the purpose of building the reserves to this point was to make it manageable to manage the four projects over a period of time and to smooth out tax increases or not tax increases, excuse me for saying that smooth out payments of bonds as they come due using reserves so that we don't have to go to undo tax increases or otherwise affect budgets. So for all of those reasons we came up with the guideline proposal that is before you and I know we have been getting some emails from advocates of school budgets. We haven't seen detailed school budgets and so there's sort of like there was this global ask from the Fort Towns meeting but there wasn't any real budgets behind it so that there was nothing to examine and look at but if we just take the view that there's gonna be consequences to the reduction of budgets, well that's true of all of the budgets that are funded by the town and we get back into the question of if you're gonna take one group and say that they are a special circumstance then which one is not gonna be the special circumstance can we have to be prepared to respond to that and then we get back into the question again about overrides and capital and so that was kind of the ultimately the finance committee and with that I will just turn it back to women and see if there are questions. Okay, I'm going to make the motion to adopt the FY20 town council budget policy guidelines as recommended by the finance committee report of 1221 2020 as presented is there a second? A second. Kathy Shane seconded. Any further discussion or questions? Mindy Jo. Yeah, I just wanna point out I fully support these guidelines and I wanted to point out mainly for the residents that our total revenues that are projected for next fiscal year are projected to be one and a half million dollars less than the FY20 fiscal year revenues that we just finished. And so we're in a hole and that's assuming level state aid. And so it's one of the reasons I'm supporting these financial guidelines of level funding I know it's gonna hurt many, many different departments for that but we have to face reality that we're not even at the revenue that we had last year the year that just ended in June. We're gonna be one and a half million dollars less despite costs increasing in absolute dollars were one and a half million dollars less. Thank you. Dorothy? Well, first I really wanna congratulate Andy. I read the report again and we read it in various versions and it was really extremely well-written and balanced and anticipated questions and answered them. I did have one thought. I know that some of the budgeting is relatively conservative. If in fact we have better revenues than projected would we be able to give some of that back to some of the institutions such as the school that are level funded to help alleviate some of the problem? Andy or Paul, do you wanna answer that question? I can start and answer and let's see if either Paul or Sean once said we said in the guidelines that these are preliminary and that if there is additional revenue that we would expect to come back with amended guidelines to reflect the increases that we have. I think that one of the things that we recognized is that it's harder to do and maybe Paul or Sean can add to this or explain it, but from my experience in doing budgets for nonprofits so it's harder to do the lower budget where you would anticipate cuts and that if additional money comes along in that process you've identified where the hardest cuts are and if money becomes available to add back there's the ability to do that more easily than to have to do late last minute later in the process and so that it seemed to be a sounder planning principle to start with where you thought you were gonna be at the lowest point and of course that is where we sort of said if things actually turn out worse and I think that the most likely place that would be is if the state ends up coming up with less than level funding for state aid that then we would probably come back and actually reach the reserves question and consider using reserves so that we don't have to ask for further reductions after the development. So we were holding off on the reserves so that they could be used for that purpose. Sean has his hand up. Paul, did you want to go ahead or have Sean go ahead? Okay, Sean. Thank you, Len. Can you hear me okay? Yes. Great. So yeah, that's a great question, Dorothy and Andy answered it perfectly. We wanted to put forward a conservative budget that we didn't think would get worse. We wanted to give people a baseline with which to plan from. And this year, more than any year I've seen either the school or the town there's a number of variables that are gonna be coming up that will inform our projections moving forward. In January, there's a couple. We have the governor's budget that will come out and we also have health insurance. I think it's hopefully gonna be the case there may be some sort of federal stimulus that has to be fact. So far, point to point, it's still not been a normal year with the college and universities and looking at what revenues are gonna do there. So we've only planned on doing a pretty big update of those projections as we come up and then the town manager will factor that into his budget proposal. Thank you. Dorothy, you have your hand up. Yeah, I just wanted to comment that I really appreciate that the guidelines take into consideration the need for flexibility regarding funding the new initiatives that have come up this year, including the climate action plan and the proposals for the community safety working group with regard to racial equity initiatives. And I wanted to remind the council that the energy and climate action committee is going to be submitting their annual report and funding requests to the town council before our next meeting. The report, January 4th. Is that what you're saying, Darcy? Yes. Thank you. Beth and Shane. Just, I wanted to underscore what Mandy said about revenues and if on the detailed tables were to almost microscopic print, the big fall office local receipt. So we are really dependent on recovery of our commercial sector, all the efforts that have gone into supporting our local businesses. And I may or may not be a winning battle depending on whether suddenly the vaccine starts taking hold and we can reopen, but I think every town and city around the country is facing what we're facing in their commercial sector. And that doesn't give us any solace, but this is a really tough environment and our commercial sector was never very big to start with, but it's a huge plunge in those revenues. Okay, thank you. Anything else at this point? Not, I'm going to- Yes, I'm sorry. I can't seem to raise my hand. Oh, I'm sorry, Elizabeth, go ahead. It's not your fault. I'm having some trouble with the sound too. If you could give me just a second here, I think I'm having a problem with which screen I'm on. Thank you. Can you hear me now? You can, thank you. Great, thank you for your patience. So a very minor edit, but since you're going to have to change the date anyway, on page five, marijuana is characterized as providing money only through payments from agreements. That's not factually correct. It is of course payments from agreements and taxes, whether you call them taxes or excise, you specifically mentioned taxes like short-term rental taxes. Short-term rental taxes are just that. Marijuana per recreational slash adult use has taxes just like short-term rentals does, comes from the same place. And then also the host community agreement payments. So just to be clear that there are two things coming from the marijuana side and because of course the host community agreements apply to both medical and recreational use whereas taxation only applies to recreational slash adult use. One of the things I found difficult about these guidelines is that again, I think reflecting something we said earlier tonight, educating the public is incredibly important, but I found it rather strange that we spent so much time emphasizing efficiency and effectiveness when we do that already. And I'm not sure why the finance committee needs to say that to people. I find it a little weird given that we usually say, oh, just let the town manager decide. But in here we talk a lot about making sure people understand we're expecting them to enhance efficiency and effectiveness. And I can tell you having done this for a really long time, you're not likely to see a lot of words that describe we did X to enhance effectiveness and efficiency. They're just gonna say, we looked at it again because they always do, because that's their job. That's their official job. So I find that a little frustrating. And I really am not comfortable with the amount of real estate in a nine page text document exclusive of microscopic charts on our sustainability and our social equity goals. There's very little in here about that. And it does not feel like we're putting substantial emphasis on that in comparison to the other things we're talking about here. And of course, once a school committee member, always a school committee member, I understand why parents are worried, obviously. And we all understand the economic impact we have if families do not choose to use our schools because they feel the schools have been decimated. The school committee always has to walk a fine line between saying things are bad, so you need to give us more money, but they're not so bad that you should run away. It's a really difficult balance for them to have, which is perhaps different than some, not all of our other town departments. So the fact that this, while yes, it's early days, yes, there are many moving pieces. And I really appreciate Sean mentioning that to us as well as Andy. I don't see in here that there's any sense of flexibility associated with the school's financial difficulties that are going to be extreme at this point. So I will not be voting in favor of these guidelines. Andy, on the issue of marijuana, is that just a addition to that sentence? I can't answer, I think it is, but I think that's a fairly easy point to get clarity on in an amended version. So that is an easy step to take to just make sure that that's correctly stated. I won't try and do it now. Would anybody else from the finance committee that would like to make a comment in response to any of the list's points? I want to address two of them. Without having the environmental, with the ECAC report, and without having the report back from the community safety working group, it's very hard to expand beyond recognizing that those are priorities and that we look to making budget adjustments to them because we don't have details to expand with. That having said that, I mean, that doesn't mean we couldn't make more of a big deal about it, but it's very hard when you don't know what the requests are, because you don't have recommendations at this point from either of them. With regard to the schools, I think we've already addressed some of that. And as we go forward with the flexibility, but you have made your point. Are there other comments at this time? Okay, so the motion's been made and seconded and there was a small amendment about marijuana revenue being coming from more than just the agreements. So that the motion would be to adopt the FY20, the town council budget policy guidelines as recommended by the finance committee report of 12, 21, 2020 as amended. Although we've not done an official amendment, but there will be an amended document. And the motion's been made and I believe it's been seconded. Is there any further discussion, Dorothy? No, I was just gonna second it. All right, and we're going to move to just vote on the guidelines. Evan Ross? Yes. Will Ryan? Yes. Dr. Shane? Yes. Steve Schreiber? Yes. Andy Steinberg? Yes. Sarah Schwartz? Aye. Melanie Ball-Millm? It doesn't look like she heard you. Melanie? Thank you. Alyssa Brewer? No. Pat DeAngelis? Yes. Darcy DeMont? Yes. Lynn Griesmer's? Aye. Mandy Johanicki? Aye. Dorothy Pam? Yes. The votes 12 in favor and of adopting the guidelines and one opposed, no abstentions, nobody absent. The next two items are being lumped together and we have joining us tonight. The Amy Rusecki, Assistant Superintendent of Public Works and Beth Wilson, who is an environmental engineer. We are not actually in possession at this point of the bylaws, but they are going to lay out for us what this is all about. And then the motions later will be to refer to the bylaws are available, that they will be immediately referred to TSO and to GOL. So with that, I'm going to ask that we go ahead and put the presentation up. And I believe, Beth, you're making a fair amount of the presentation. Is that correct? Yes, that's correct. All right, well, thanks Lynn. And I want to thank the council for taking the time tonight to listen to this presentation on the proposed storm order bylaws. As Lynn mentioned, this presentation is really an introduction to the program that's behind the bylaws and the reasons that we need them and what they can accomplish. So I hope it provides you some background for when you're actually reviewing the documents, which sounds like it'll be at your next meeting. Okay, so the first slide. Next slide. So what is stormwater? Stormwater is precipitation, melted snow or rain that runs off of surfaces, including streets and lawns, parking lots, roads, sidewalks, roofs. What is stormwater pollution? When stormwater flows, it picks up a number of contaminants, common contaminants that are found in stormwater are sediment and nutrients from fertilizers, bacteria, oils and trash. What is our stormwater drainage system? It's the catch basins and manholes and piping, drainage swales and outfalls that carry stormwater from developed areas and discharge it into our streams and rivers and other water bodies. It's maintained by the Amherst DPW. And it's also called our Municipal Separate Storm Sewer System or MS4, which is a name given to it by EPA and DEP and you'll see that acronym MS4 in the bylaws and also throughout this presentation. So next slide. Stormwater regulations. So these are the EPA and DEP regulations, not any town ones. We'll be talking about town ones as we move along, but municipal stormwater drainage systems are regulated by EPA's NIPD's phase two stormwater program. And that program requires any municipalities that have storm drainage systems within urbanized areas to have a discharge permit to discharge stormwater into water bodies. And on the right hand side of this slide, it's a little zoomed out, can't really see it that well, but it shows the urbanized area within Amherst. Urbanized areas are defined by the federal government and they're based on census data. And so that's the area within Amherst that is regulated under the NIPD's phase two stormwater program. So that within that area, our stormwater drainage system is regulated under that program, so requires a permit. And in Massachusetts, EPA and Mass DEP created the municipal separate storm sewer system, our MS4 general permit. And the most recent version of that is 2016. It's a general permit, which means, it's a permit that any all towns apply to, but it's the same for all towns. So our requirements under our MS4 general permit are the same as our Hampton or Belcher Town. So the town of Amherst applied in 2018 for coverage under the 2016 MS4 permit and were granted coverage in 2019. And the overall requirement of the permit is the towns develop stormwater management programs. So next slide, stormwater management program. The goal for all towns, their stormwater management program is to improve the water quality of your MS4 systems discharge so that it meets the state and federal surface water quality standards. And the MS4 permit sets up a system for towns to reach that goal and what they've built is six minimum control measurements. These are the things that are required to be in our stormwater management program. They include public education and outreach, public involvement and participation, illicit discharge detection and elimination program, construction site, stormwater runoff control, stormwater management in new development and redevelopment and good housekeeping and pollution prevention for permittee owned operations. I'm not gonna get into too much detail about each one of these aspects of the permit. I'll just say that we have started public education and outreach and public involvement and participation. We've done some work on that in 2019 and now into 2020. So what we need to do is start working on the next three minimum control measures and the first requirement of those three minimum control measures is to establish a bylaw. So we've put together a draft IDDE bylaw and we've put together a draft what we're calling stormwater management bylaw which will include the requirements of for construction site stormwater runoff control and stormwater management in new development and redevelopment. And then there is one more requirement under the permit that has to do with water bodies that are listed either with EPA or MAST DEP as impaired water bodies. And within Amherst, I'm not gonna get into too much detail about this, but within Amherst we do have a few requirements under that which has been built into like the public education and outreach that we've already been doing. So next slide, next slide. Anybody else seeing that? So I'm seeing the MS-4. The permit schedule. Would you like to? Oh, the schedule. Yeah, let's go, there we go. Okay, now I'm seeing the schedule too. Yep, MS-4 permit schedule. The MS-4 permit phase is implementing the six minimum control measures over time. And what I'm showing here is just the major tasks through the end of 2022. This schedule extends all the way to 2034, I think. It's got some tasks that don't need to necessarily be accomplished for 10 to 15 years. But I just included the most upcoming tasks. And I highlighted the two by-laws. So there's the IDTE by-law and the stormwater management by-law. And you can see that the reason that we're talking about them tonight is that they need to be in place by the end of June, 2021. That's coming up. And then the only other thing that really is listed for fiscal year 2021 is the stormwater management regulations, which once we establish the stormwater management by-law, it gives the authority to put together those regulations. And by the end of June, we just need to have a draft of those regulations. They don't have to be voted on and approved by town council yet, because those will take some discussion. Anyway, I just wanted to show that's really the reason why we're talking about it at this time. Those two by-laws right now. Okay, next slide. So the illicit discharge detection and elimination by-law. This by-law will establish that it's illegal to discharge anything except stormwater into our MS-4. Dumping is a good example of an illicit discharge and something like a sump pump in the basement of a restaurant or something that's connected to our storm drainage system is a good example of an illicit connection. And this by-law will give us, give the town, the authority to investigate situations like that and remove them and basically tell people that it's illegal to do any kind of discharging like this. And the by-law includes enforcement with fines. The by-law will become part of the IDD program. And how that all ties together is that the IDD program includes investigating and sampling our outfalls or stormarist's outfalls. And if we were to find contamination at a certain outfall, we're required to delineate the catchment of that outfall and investigate that catchment. And these are the kinds of things that when we're investigating the catchment, we may find. So having this by-law that gives us the authority to inspect, remove, even have people help with restoration if there's a big enough impact from some kind of a discharge. So basically this by-law gives the town, the authority to deal with these kinds of situations. And next slide, the stormwater management by-law. This by-law establishes authority for the town to create stormwater regulations. The regulations will include stormwater design for new and redevelopment projects and the regulations will regulate that design to meet the MS4 water quality and low impact development requirements. The regulations would also regulate stormwater system post-construction maintenance. So these designs that get reviewed and have to meet the MS4 water quality and low impact development requirements once they're constructed, this would regulate that they continue to meet those standards. It would also regulate instructions that stormwater runoff. The by-law would give the town the ability or the authority to issue stormwater permits with fees. And then again, it would give the town the ability to enforce this by-law with fines similar to the ITDE by-law. Next slide. And then next steps after these by-laws are put in place. Like I said, our written IDDE program needs to be developed which would include outfall inspection and sampling and then ranking of those outfalls and the ones where contamination is found. We would be required to delineate their catchments and investigate their catchments and then make catchment improvements. And then in terms of the stormwater management by-law, the next step is creating the stormwater regulations which would detail permit requirements. So somebody who's proposing a new development project what they need to provide for the town. About their stormwater design. And then the permitting process who would be reviewing all the design documents. This is really a stormwater report and plan sets. And just the whole permitting process where who would be issuing the permits and permit fees and all that. So the stormwater regulations really get into the details about all of that. And that's the next step after the by-law is enacted. So that's all I have. Sort of a general look at our stormwater program and the MS-4 requirements. All right. We'll move then to questions from the council. Darcy DeMond. Hi. I just have a quick question about how does, how do your permitting requirements interface with the municipal vulnerability preparedness program climate resilience? You know, like the niche, I think niche engineering was hired to also look at green infrastructure and in stormwater management. So maybe, I don't know. Maybe Paul knows about that. Well, I would say both programs, the MS-4 program and then certainly what niche has come up probably suggesting a lot of the same things in terms of stormwater BMPs that would improve stormwater quality that at our discharge points. And like I said, the MS-4 program is sort of based on investigating our stormwater system as it is right now at the outfalls, actually sampling water quality and determining areas that need these type of BMPs and improvements. So I think it does all tie together. And I know there's definitely been consultants niche but other consultants under other grants and things that we've gotten over time that have looked at where the best places are to put in downtown green infrastructure. So it all does tie together. I'm just wondering if there's a duplicated effort here somewhere. Paul, you have your hand up. I just want to mention that Beth, before she came the environmental scientist for the DPW was a conservation administrator and we're cube to cube with Stephanie Ciccarello. So they are very familiar. They're in close communication. So this is a coordinated effort. So it's not different silos or anything like that. Thank you. Shalini? Yeah, I had a question about, imagining that this by-law would be applicable to new subdivisions that are being developed and then they would be transferred to the town. That's right, right? It would apply to those. And if that's the case, when would it kick in? I read the day June. So if they are in the process of transferring, then should the town be looking, will the town be looking at them based on the old things or anticipating the new? Yeah, so we don't even have the by-law in place yet. And then once the by-law is in place, we have to work on the regulations, which would really detail a lot of that. So I would say at this point, we're still dealing with the older process for reviewing storm water systems. Okay. I have a couple of questions. It's really just overall about the program. So I gather we applied to be in this program. But that is not a requirement that every municipality be in this program. Is that correct? Right. You have to have a storm water drainage system that's within an urbanized area. So that map I was showing you is something that was created by the federal government by EPA delineating these urbanized areas. So a town like Shootsbury, I live in Shootsbury. We don't have any designated urbanized area. We don't have a drainage system either. But if we had a drainage system and we still didn't have a urbanized area, we wouldn't have to get a permit under MS-4. Okay. So are we required to be part of this program? And I'm seeing Amy had yes, and that's the answer I was going to ask. And applying and now being part of this program, which we're required to be in, are there additional dollars and technical assistance that come from the state with that application? No, that's a big problem at the MS-4 program. It's an unfunded mandate. Unfunded mandate. Unfunded mandate. Unfunded mandate, it is. So then that's going to bring me to my next set of questions, which may not be answerable at this time. And that is, what is it going to cost for us to implement this bylaw? Do we have any plans of cost? We don't know that. And it's a good question. It's certainly a question that we need to keep looking at as we go along. But yeah, we're gonna have to just kind of keep looking at that. And some of it's gonna be just based on what we see and what we end up having to do or how we figure out to do it. So some of it's in how we set it up, but then some of it is also the state's gonna tell us, you have to clean these manholes every six months and we're gonna have to look at how to do that. And do we have the staffing and do we either shift staffing to get that done or do we have to get additional staffing or additional trucks to get that done? And then how we fund that is a whole another thing that when we get to the regulations and when we get to really setting it up, it's gonna be another discussion that you guys are gonna have to consider. Paul. This is most likely the most controversial thing about this program because most communities put on a fee and it's a substantial fee. And then that's the thing that funds the program that's required to be done by the state in order to meet the MS4 requirements. So I think in Northampton, there are a year or two ahead of us and this became very controversial in Northampton a couple of years ago. And that's gonna happen here most likely too because there is a cost, we don't have funds for it. There has to be funds generated to meet this cost. And then that's gonna be the rub that people are gonna start to feel. Is there any way as we look at these bylaws to start getting some of that estimate and is there flexibility in the regulations that would either cost us less or cost us more? Will there be flexibility in the regulations? I don't think there'll be too much flexibility As Paul mentioned, then I should just say that in the bylaw, in the stormwater bylaw we do mention a utility that it's saying that this bylaw is giving the town the authority to develop a utility in the future if they'd like to. Utility's not anything that's required by the MS4 permitting program but there are towns like Northampton that have established them. The only thing that has come up within the program is some grant opportunities. The state's come out with some MS4 grants and I'm really hoping that over the next few years they develop that more and they really have some larger grant opportunities to meet some of the requirements. Well, I may wanna come back with some more questions but let me go back to the other counselors. Mandy Jo. Yeah, on that fee issue, I was looking at the, we had draft bylaws that aren't quite ready for presentation yet in referral but they had permit fees amounts in them. And I noticed the two sample bylaws you gave us from I believe Northampton and Eastampton also had permit fee amounts that were wildly different. I was amazed at the variation in the numbers. As we set those amounts since they will be bylaw amounts, I guess one of my questions is, do they need to be in the bylaw because bylaws are harder to change than somewhere else? And so, I guess one of the things I would potentially encourage is keeping those numbers, especially permit fees versus fines out of the bylaws if possible. But as we start setting them, I know the town's been reviewing all fees, seeing, looking very carefully at those fees to see if they could cover the costs over a utility. And my guess is that's not entirely feasible to put it all on the fees versus a later utility. And I guess your answer is explained why there is the potential for a utility like the sewer fund for the people watching and that's similar to our sewer fund and our water fund for using water and sewer. And I'm not gonna ask my questions about how that would work and who would be charged right now because that's further down the line. But it did answer my question as to why communities do potentially create that fund. So thank you for that. Andy? Sure. So several mentions have been made about the fund as I guess first of two questions was whether those funds are set up as enterprise funds or are they just set up as funds within fee revenue coming into the community and into the general budget and expenditures out of the general budget. So that was the first question because whether enterprise funds is ever considered or possible for this kind of arrangement. And the other is are there capital costs that we will incur at the beginning in order to establish the system? I think the answer to your first question, I think that really varies town to town. There is a list. I'm not sure if I included in my memo to you all. I think there might be a link in there too. About 25 towns across Massachusetts that have utilities and it's a spreadsheet and it has information in it about how each of those towns have their utilities set up. And that is something that we need to, if we're gonna head in that direction just to do more research about because I don't really know exactly. Capital costs. Maybe Amy can chime in on what other capital DPW might need that you can think of right now to meet some of the MS4 requirements. Yeah, I mean some of it we're not gonna know but from my understanding of the program, I think initially like it's almost gonna be like we kind of ramp up into the program in general. So the first few years we should, we're hopeful to be able to do meet the minimum requirements or a little above the minimum requirements with the infrastructure and the personnel that we have as we try to, at some point we might need to have a second sewer jet truck to be able to clean out the catchments that we have. But I don't see that that's something in the next year or two that we're gonna have to do or the additional manpower to run the sewer truck. But that's something that that might be a reality in a couple of years as we get into this. So there are some capital needs but I don't anticipate any in the next few years I guess as we're setting this up and just getting the ball rolling. I just wanna make note that in the motion we don't include the finance committee but it sounds to me like we probably should also refer this to finance. Alyssa. Thank you for adding that Lynn. I think that is a really good idea because this is actually a financial prospect that Andy and I have known about for many years because we've known for years that this was coming Paul mentioned Northampton for example and we keep saying what kind of money is this gonna cost are people gonna see fees? How's this gonna work? We've been asking that for more than two years. And so we need to make sure that as this continues to be developed that we're really clear in communicating to the public, right? Which things are just like new fees. So if you're not building a house, what do you care? And which things are ongoing expenses? I think that's really important especially in these really difficult times for people to say, wait, what? And as Paul also mentioned there was quite a bit of controversy in Northampton about how they set it up initially. And I think they may have gone through some changes although perhaps I'm thinking of another municipality. The other thing I wanna make sure is clear is we're on a relatively short timeframe here for a bylaw that we've been wondering about for a really long time and is now suddenly needs to be in place for June and we don't have it yet. So when we're sending this to TSO this may be one of those times that I again say to the president I think we need to have a conversation at the town council again about this because unless the TSO is presented with you can choose this variation or that variation on section three sort of like what we just did with ranch choice voting. What good is it sending it to TSO? I mean, if it's the bylaw that is the bylaw that Massachusetts communities of our size have to do then it's the bylaw. So there's no value add in having TSO describe it. But if there are decision points, if there are variations that are better for our size community as opposed to some model bylaw then obviously I'm all for that but I'm not all for expecting all the town counselors to show up at the TSO meeting to hear the same thing they could have heard at a town council meeting. So I hope that that will be made clear as this is developed and presented and automatically referred assuming we passed this motion that if it turns out there, when we get the bylaw there has to be a cover that says you can choose between these three options or this is the only bylaw that you can possibly pass and this is how it has to be that just needs to be super clear up front. Great. Okay. I'm gonna make the motion and look for a second upon future receipt to automatically refer the stormwater management bylaw and the illicit discharge detection and elimination bylaw along with the Elizabeth Wilson December 14, 2020 memo. Amherst MS4 stormwater permit stormwater management and IDDE bylaws supplemental information to the town services and outreach committee, the finance committee and to the governance organization and legislation committee for review and recommendation to the town council within 90 days of referral. Second, DeAngelis. Is there further discussion? Kathy. Just a quick point. Number one, I thought that was a fabulous memo that you sent us. You opened it up and I said, oh, it's 60 pages long but that was because you included. So on the actual drafting of the draft bylaws, I noticed they're not quite in the same format of the way our bylaws have lately been drafted. So on the referral to GOL, I think that's great but I think it should be like quickly get them into the format that they can just slide right into the bylaws. So whether that's town attorney or just focusing on the format, they weren't far off. I mean, almost the same, yeah. That request has already been made. Okay, great. The correct format. I just thought it was so well done. We're giving ourselves 90 days but we ought to be able to move it as quickly as possible. Right, no, the reason you don't have the official bylaws tonight is because they have been referred back to the town attorney for formatting into our format. Mandy, Joe or Paul, you were involved in that conversation. Either one of you wanna add to that? Nope, okay. So the motion has been made and seconded. Was there a second? Yes, okay, Pat, that's right. Thank you. Then we're going to move to a vote and we're going to start with Kathy Shane. Yes. Steve Schreiber. Yes. Andy Steinberg. Yes. Sarah Schwartz. Sarah Schwartz. Sorry, yes. Okay. Shanley Bamil. Yes. Alyssa Brewer. Aye. Pat DeAngelis. Aye. Garcy DeMont. Yes. Lynn Griesmer, yes. Mandy Johanike. Aye. Dorothy Pam. Yes. Evan Ross. Aye. George Ryan. Aye. It's unanimous. Thank you so much for your very, very detailed report and for joining us this evening. And Amy and Beth, I have a feeling we'll be seeing you at various other committee meetings of the town council. Thank you. Thank you. Beth, say hello to David. Hello. Hello. Okay. The next item is retreat follow-up and I've gone back and forth. I really feel that rather than try to get into the details of whether or not we're going to vote on these tonight, we're not, okay? But I would like a brief discussion about some of the suggested changes. And then I'm going to ask for another round of council input and bring these back on January 4th. Is there any further discussion on the Jones Library memo? Let me just tell you, I feel like we need to have it put into parallel structures so that whatever we're asking about the renovation and addition, we're also asking to the extent that it is to the extent that it's appropriate the same questions about the repair. So are there other questions or comments at this time? Yeah, Kathy. I agree with what you just said, Lynn, and you're getting as much parallel as possible. And I saw one of the comments from wherever it came from was why is the operating budget even on the list? I think it should be on both lists because I think we need to know whether in the future we've got to pull on the endowment fund and we can operate the thing. So the parallelism makes total sense. It goes for both. And one would be a larger space is the point. And I think the library said they can manage it with the same number of people. So I would just like that the parallelism makes sense to me, but I think the operating budget is relevant. I couldn't quite tell in the markup, it had lots of initials. So I think you just tried to consolidate all the comments you got. Yeah. Yes, I did not try to, I tried to not identify individual counselors. Any other comments at this point? Shalini. Yeah, regarding the racial equity and social justice, I agree that we have something coming up from community safety working group, but that to me represents once piece of the issues that we're looking at with respect to safety, but I would still like more discussion around addressing other systemic gaps and have that discussion as well. Is this related to the Jones library? Oh, no. Emma. Okay, thank you. Okay. There's, thank you. Are there other comments with related to the Jones library, Memo? Oh, sorry. That's okay. All right. So then let me just go on to the other one, which is the future agenda items. And there's been a lot of comment here and one counselor actually has submitted some additional comments that might have been in the form of emotion that some of these things just don't need to even be referred. Some of them are, you know, we've done them, done. Mandy Jo, you were that count. You were. I was. So I might as well talk a little bit about it since it's not in any of these, it's not really in the memo itself or under those comments. I'm concerned that, you know, I had a couple of different sets of concerns about some of the stuff that's in this. The first one is there are five items that have already been referred to committee. So I'm not sure why we need to even have them in this memo. I can identify them along with dates that we've referred them previously to committees. Right. There are items that I don't think are within the council's jurisdiction. There are three of those at this point in my opinion. The structure and items to include in town committee reports, the structure and items to include an elected body and board of license commissioner reports and whether we should avoid instances where one committee has a quorum of another committee, where one council committee has a quorum of another council committee. I don't think they are within the town's council's jurisdiction and therefore I don't support referring to GOL those items because GOL can do nothing with them if the council has no jurisdiction over those items. And there are some items that really don't have any action associated with them. One is in my opinion, one is that non-voting resident members of finance and should we consider two year terms? Well, the charge already has two year terms for non-voting resident members. So I don't see an action with that referral that's being suggested. And then particularly with Hickory Ridge, the finance committee at this point doesn't really have anything to do with it since the money's already been voted. So I'm not sure a motion to refer that item to finance is has any action to it. And then I would question whether we should be, whether it's premature to refer that to CRC and TSO when there's no plan yet. And that goes to my other item of there's, I think a couple of things that are premature to refer. Hickory Ridge might be one alternative analysis of alternate ways of setting water and sewer. The town manager has already said they would work on that. And so until we have a proposal, I'm not sure we should have it in finance and fees for parking and on street parking. Again, the town manager's already working on it. But then there's to me the more important items which are do we really want all of these items actually referred to committee and committees spending time on items. And I have a list of five, six, seven, eight that I don't think in our limited time and our limited committee meeting are important enough given all of the other referrals that our committees have that our committee should be spending time on. And I can go through that eight or I can just send them to Lynn for questioning. But I think we need to really consider where our committee time is most valuable. And if these are important enough for the council that we want committee time spent on them, I mean, GOL had a list of, oh my gosh, I don't know how many GOL had a list of on this, 18. You know, that's a lot. And GOL's just not gonna get through that. And so I think we shouldn't be referring anything that someone thinks is there. I think we need as a council to get rid of this list and down to a manageable number. Oh, and then one, sorry, one other thing. There were some things on here I didn't quite understand. What does a referral about zoning update mean to CRC? What does a referral about major capital projects mean? And what does a referral to finance and what does a referral about other major capital projects downtown athletic fields to finance mean? What's the returnable or the deliverable on those referrals because they're just statements right now. So that I think needs cleared up too. So let me just mention, before I call on Alyssa, that then as I put together the item that did not get into your packet until this morning, the issue of what all is on our potential plate, if you will, for the year 2021. And it's a draft, okay? It's one of those things where we have to look at it. Some things are required. Some things will be, yes, we think this is a high priority and some things we're just gonna have to say, no, we're not gonna get to that, okay? So in many ways, this referral memo has now meshed to that other memo. And that other memo I personally think is where we really need to spend our time and not as much on the referral memo because once we decide what we're really gonna try to accomplish in FY in calendar year 21, our last year as this council, then we can be much more clear about what has to get referred and when does it have to get referred? Does that make sense? Again, you didn't get it until you may have seen it late yesterday or mid-afternoon yesterday, Alyssa. So I think you may have found us away out of this land just now when you said that in that I'm gonna disagree, I know, shocking with Mandy Jo as to whether certain things are within our jurisdiction. That's her opinion, that's not a fact. And so I totally believe that because the charter says annual reports have to be provided to the town council, that the town council absolutely can dictate what's in those annual reports. There's no indication that we have no control over that since those might not be what the Charter Commission envisioned, that's not what the words say. The words say annual reports come to the town council, there's every reason to believe we should have some control over what at minimum, for example, they might include similar to a conversation we're going to have later tonight about what does charter section X mean associated with signatures. I'm not saying it's a huge priority of anyone's, but I'm also saying that the reason it was on the list is because we're setting a precedent, right? This is our first three-year term. Is it a high priority? Is it something we wanna spend a lot of time on? Probably not. I don't think it's up to any of us individually to decide it's not worth doing. These things all came out of our retreat. We had, we spent time together for a reason, but maybe what we do then in order to figure this out is we take this list, we combine it with that list that Lynn has just provided us about future agenda topics and we see what we think fits and what was clearly going to be handled at the town council level versus possible referral. But then beyond that, so maybe we decide this next time rather than tonight is beyond that, it's fine to refer something to a committee and have the committee say, that's dumb, I'm not, we're not gonna work on that. And I can report that back to the council. Nope, GOL has a million other things to do, including by-law review. These are the five things you sent us. We're not gonna spend any more time on this unless you have more specific direction. That's a perfectly okay thing for a committee to do. What's not okay is for somebody to decide it's not within the town council's jurisdiction or somebody to decide it doesn't make the cut before it ends up going over there. If that's true, then we need to have another conversation about why it is that 13 separate town councilors are sending questions about the North Common to staff to get those answered rather than those questions coming from the town council, the group that is the town council should be asking the questions of staff through the town manager, not 13 individual town councilors. So we can't have it both ways. I will say that the original memo, I believe, the original memo said that these would go to committees and the committee would then say, we're gonna dispose with this by not doing anything or we're going to recommend this. For example, one of the ones that's on there is further clarification about liaisons. I don't personally think that there's a whole lot more to be said or done about that. And GOL could just say needs no further action. So it was brought up and communicated because it was brought up. So again, I think the place to focus at this point is really on what are the potential items on the 2021 agendas and make sure that we decide what our priorities are. We're not gonna do that tonight. You've only gotten the first pass on that. Darcy? Yeah, I made quite a few comments on this particular memo and they were mostly with regard to those that were on the GOL list and mostly because I would like topics to be, you know, a number of the topics to be decided by the full council first before they get an automatic referral to a committee. And we decided way back more than a year ago that we should amend the rules to create a rule that said the committee should take no action that shall bind the council. And there are a couple of issues involved in those issues with regard, especially to those items referred to the GOL. Policy issues, I believe, should be discussed and voted by the whole council. And then if we wanna refer the issue to a committee for refinement and final draft, that would make sense to me. So there are about eight items on that list that I thought fell into that category. I believe our committee processes should be uniform. They affect all of us and the town in general. Our committee, council committee review processes, our outreach processes and our town council committee application and interview processes, I feel should all be governed by our rules of procedure. And it doesn't make sense to me for them to differ depending on the committee. I think we've seen this over the two years that different committees all spending lots of time coming up with their own processes. It doesn't make sense for committee to make recommendations regarding policy matters because another reason is because everyone should have an equal say on the policy even though they might be outvoted when it was discussed in the full council. If a recommendation comes from a committee, the recommendation is given weight that unfairly steers the vote of the full council on that matter where counselors would otherwise have an equal say. And I feel like we're kind of feeling pressure because we're short on time. We have so many agenda items to cover that I feel like we're feeling pressure from that. And I also want to note that committees can have such different composition and can come up with different recommendations. And the current composition of GOL is very weighted to the kind of like the power elite on the council and including the chair of the committee the council president, the council vice president, the chair of the finance committee and nothing against those people. I just feel like this is a daunting group to be initiating discussions on policy issues where I would like to have equal say on that policy issue that affects the whole council and the whole town. And I also want the initial discussion in public view because if things get automatically referred to council committees, the public just are not able to keep up with that and follow it and figure out where the discussion is taking place. So I think that GOL and its charge, GOLs is able to advise on internal rules but the discussion should start in the full council on those important policy decisions. All right, great comments, Ms. You need done mute. Sorry, I'm having difficulty. I think the committee process is sometimes frustrating as someone who's tried to pass bylaws and resolutions through, but I feel like referring to committee supports the full council. When a group of five people gets together and discusses the issue in a committee and then that committee reports on its thoughts and recommendations, that does not mean that any other counselor off that committee has to support the committee's recommendations. I guess I'm not as trying to think of a reasonable word here. I don't feel as suspicious as some people do of the work of committees and I often don't agree or don't like what comes out of a committee. I particularly don't see GOL as the power or elite because I'm on it and I've been on it since the beginning and what it is is a committee that works very hard to stay within its charge and we wrestle all the time with whether we're dealing with substance issues or not. Whether a bylaw or resolution is a clear, consistent and actionable has nothing to do with power plays or grabs and I think we need to, I need to say that and I think I really wish that we were a collaborative body and not a body that seeks to divide itself. Are there any other comments on the memos at this point? I'll figure out, try to figure out what to do about it. I'm going to go on to the next item and it comes up because there was a email sent initially to the clerk or the council. I mean, I'm sorry, to the town clerk and it was about section 8.1 of the charter and that resulted in the town manager responding to the request about what is it and how shall we interpret section 8.1 of the charter? And town manager did that and included and that is all included in your packet. Basically, this motion then refers this now to GOL because it's a rule of procedure to further clarify what we want to do to handle this piece of the charter. Okay, Dorothy, you have your hand up. I did want to say about the previous topic that our agendas are too full. There's almost no way to prepare for them. We have no staff, at least I have no staff. And we do have an election in a year and there may be some people who are thinking of running for town council and they should not say, I can't even imagine doing it because it just takes up your whole life and it's too much work. So somehow we have to get to a manageable meetings and manageable tasks. That's all. Absolutely, thank you. All right, back to this issue. The motion is to refer the town managers memo of 12, 14, 2020 which includes KP law charter section 8.1 open meeting of the residents to the GOL committee for review and recommendation regarding the acceptable form of requests under charter section 8.1 through the town council in 90 days, is there a second? Anarchy seconds. There further discussion. Garcy. I guess I was just confused by this referral because it is for to come back with an answer within 90. First of all, I'm not sure why if we already have the opinion from the KP law why we need to do anything. And if we're saying that GOL doesn't have to come back for 90 days, how does that affect the petitioner? The petitioner has already done their petition. It turns out that they petitioned the school committee, not us. And so the school committee basically took the recommendation and the petitioners followed that. This is to help us formulate the response for future petitions. It's not for the one that initiated the investigation to begin with. Alyssa. I just wanted to add that I hope that we are not limiting, I know we're all exhausted and we have a long way to go yet. When this gets referred, I'm really not caring at all truly about what the form of the signatures is or the phone numbers, I really don't care at all. It's nice if we have a procedure so that people know what it is. And I appreciate the concept of if we've already gotten some guidance, that could be helpful. But there is a larger issue here that I think this does not address at all. It's only talking about things like whether or not phone numbers gonna be on it. What's far more important in my opinion in terms of giving guidance on 8.1 is to give guidance stating how it is that people are supposed to comply with the words stating one or more specific issues or concerns related to matters upon which the requested body may act. That is a far more useful piece of guidance to anyone than whether or not they have to put a phone number or a wet signature on something because we have already had numerous people come to us individually for topics over the last two years saying, do I wanna use the petition process? It's like, is it even something that's related to a matter upon which the body you're asking about can act? And so that to me is where we could really be helpful to people to figuring out if this is the path they wanna take or if they wanna take some other path. But so I would hope that the referral would include some mention of that because that's not discussed in here. I think that's an excellent point, Melissa, because at least in this initial discussion it was not clear that if it came to the council that it was anything we would act could act on at if in a discussion. And so what you're suggesting is that along with some guidance about what the request might look like there might also be guidance about how is it judged as to whether or not it's an item that the body can even act on. Okay, any other questions? Okay, the motion has been made. Seconded. Ms. Athena, was the motion seconded? Yes. Yes. All right, any further discussion? We'll start with Steve Schreiber. Aye. Andy Steinberg. Aye. Farah Schwartz. Aye. Shanley Balmillan. Yes. Alyssa Brewer. Aye. Pat DeAngeles. Aye. Darcy DuBont. I think I'm gonna abstain. Okay, Rhys Mer is an aye. Hannake. Aye. Pam. Aye. Ross. Aye. Ryan. Aye. Shane. Yes. It's vote 12 for referral. No opposition, one abstention, no absence. We now go back to item seven on the agenda. And the first is the discussion of the role of the president and the vice president. In your packet were three items. One was those sections of the charter that refer to the president, role of the president and the vice president. The second, which was not, I apologize for this. I thought I had submitted one where I had actually identified in yellow what the rules of procedure said regarding the president and the vice president. Instead, you ended up with the entire rules of procedure which are the way you have to be reading all the time anyway. And then there is a short list provided by Mandy Jo of responsibilities as she has fulfilled them quite ably as vice president. The purpose of having all of that is a discussion because on January 4th at the end of the meeting we will have the election of the president and the vice president for the last year of this council. So the floor is open for discussion. Alyssa. I asked for this discussion because I find it incredibly offensive that people make these decisions outside of a posted meeting and they do that by, because that's just the way humans are and that's the way humans are even under open meeting law. So I know it's awkward to have discussions at the time of the election but I think we're going to go down that awkward road as we have in the past where people will not only say why they think they will be an excellent officer but we actually have the opportunity to speak to the characteristics we are looking for not why I think X necessarily is super but what particular characteristics we're certainly looking for and also give people the opportunity to ask questions. Otherwise what consistently happens in municipal office is that everyone makes their decision outside of the meeting. We go through the routine of just nominating and seconding and then it's over and the public has no idea why we decided what we decided. As preface to that rather than trying to include it in the same meeting I asked that we have this focus briefly obviously it's very late on what the roles of those bodies are since we really only have the two officers and to give us a chance to think about whether we're willing to discuss it tonight or not in a broader non-focused on individual candidates issue versus next time when we'll be talking about how amazing each of the candidates is and what they bring to the table and we'll hopefully ignore the sore spots we might feel anybody contains. But the larger issue and that's why we're doing this if nobody participates in this then what we're telling the public is nobody needs to discuss this everybody just knows what the president and vice president do there doesn't need to be any discussion so it's fine just trust us to do the right thing. I think we owe the public and ourselves a little more than that. That being said my biggest concern remains that has remained from the day we joined the town council so to speak is that we are treating the president and vice president as an executive team and we are frequently not aware of some of the things they're working on and some of that is purely due to time. I'm not saying anybody's withholding information from us it's due to the time constraints as Dorothy mentioned this job is ridiculous and trying to get people to run for it has already gotten some of us laughed at. So when we consider the officer's positions the president in particular that's true even more so. Absolutely 100% it's a huge job and that little tiny extra in the stipend I'm sure does not make up for it. But I think we need to be clearer on what our expectations are for the president vice president going in and so in addition to we only get the candidates we get we also should be able to have some kind of general discussion about what we expect. I for one expect that pre COVID we were going to do a better job of incorporating other town counselors into agenda setting that didn't happen. It happened for a little while it did not happen consistently it was not something that this president and vice president prioritized that disappoints me but if that's not important to anybody else then that's what this town council has decided their culture is. This is our opportunity to say it matters to us to know that you talked to UMass about something it matters to us to know that you talked to the town manager and made decisions about what ends up on the agenda. It matters to us to know what are coming up for future agenda items like we have now that memo on future agenda items which is really helpful. So I think this is just our opportunity to say what we're looking for so that the people who are candidates who either already announced or are considering over this wonderful holiday period what they want to do what how they might meet those requirements that we're looking for. Darcy. Alyssa I really appreciate that you did ask for this to be on the agenda because I also think it's an important discussion to have and it's hard to have it on the day of the election obviously. So, and I also have had a lot of discomfort with the fact that we have had this, you know President, Vice President duo that is very powerful. And, you know, I just commenting on Mandy Joe's memo, her list of the task that she took on as Vice President. I, you know, feel that Mandy Joe is kind of like a special circumstance. You know, she's a former charter commissioner and I feel like the fact that she took on all of those responsibilities should not should not be a precedent setting not precedent precedent setting for this council. I really myself prefer to have the Vice President role basically as described in the charter as only substituting for the president in her absence. And I like the model of the president assigning multiple counselors to do different things rather than having, you know a president and a very powerful Vice President working as a team like Alyssa was saying. And I think that was a kind of a once a one time deal because of the combination of Lynn and Mandy Joe and so I'm hoping that when we elect our next Vice President that the role is much more limited. Dorothy. Just a short statement that I really don't like the idea of a powerful team that works together because it has the effect of kind of shutting the rest of us out. I think that a really great Vice President would be one who brings some different points of view so that we have the conversations between President and Vice President would be that kind of stimulating one which encourages more variety of thought. Sarah. I'm tired so I'm gonna hope this makes sense. I think when we first had this discussion when we were first elected about the role of the President and the Vice President we were hoping that most of us were hoping that the roles would be a little more simple than they are right now where the Vice President again was just stepping in for the President when the President couldn't be there and that the President would have the luxury of actually not having to take on all the things that you have taken on Lynn so that they could one of the other things is that the President could also feel more like one of the counselors and be able to express themselves freely. And I think that what people are saying is part of how the President and the Vice President has, those jobs have been executed this very first time. I do think that both you and Mandy Jo needed to take on a lot more because we were first getting started and we had a lot of rules we had to establish and there were a lot more moving parts or parts we didn't even know where they fit. But I think as we're ending our third year I think that we really need to start thinking about the rules that we set up for future councils and counselors so that they're not just thrown into something where a lot of rules are not there or unsaid or implied. And I am really hoping that I'm hoping that there's some way we can make this clear so that the role of the President isn't so daunting. You have done an amazing job and it's definitely been a leadership role but I don't know that it always has to be. And I think in some ways it would be better for the President again to be able to feel more like they can say what they want to say on something and not so much that they've got to try to lead us which I know was important in the beginning. And I really do believe as other people have said this that we should have more of a vice president doesn't do as much. And also I hope that we are starting to and I don't know if we could put this into a rule but even with a council that turns over every two years I think it's really important that we are looking to mentor counselors as they come through so that we give a lot of people a chance to be chairs. We give a lot of people a chance to see what agenda setting is like because then you have more of a pool of people who are ready to step up into jobs as chairs president and vice president. So these are things that I've had on my mind but I haven't said out loud. So there you go. Thanks. Thank you. I think excellent comments all the way around. Any other comments at this time? Okay, then we fulfilled that discussion. So the other item under seven is in fact I referred to this earlier. What I've been trying to do is collect in one place all of the things that people keep saying we need to do in this last year. The list is daunting. It is not achievable. I just wanna be very clear about that. And even then it's not complete. And so what I did was I started with the goals of the town that we have given the town manager and then and looked at what our actions might need to be under any one of those goals. Then I also looked at the memos that we just discussed and I looked at our calendars and even then I didn't get through all of it because I didn't list exactly all the forms we've done or the proclamations that we pass every year. So what I'm asking in this is that each of you look at this list individually. I'll send something to you where you can add to the list or make comments about the list. Once we get done with that, I also would like each committee to look at this list and say are the things that my committee needs to get done on here. And then we'll bring it back to the council and we're gonna have to make some tough decisions. We're gonna have to say this is important or this is not important because if you think we can get all of this done more power to you, I think it's daunting. And I think we need to decide what the legacy is that we want to leave. So there's really unless you wanna discuss it now there's really nothing to discuss. It's really a matter of starting the process. George. Just I think to second a comment you made earlier that I prefer this approach that you've given us here to the earlier one that I think Mandy pointed out and others have pointed out has a number of challenging issues to it. So that's really what my thought is let's go with this and come back to you and set our priorities and our plan for the coming year as best we can. I'm less concerned about the earlier document that I think is problematic. Dorothy. I just wanna take a moment to congratulate all of us for continuing to function and this certainly includes Paul in a time of craziness and COVID as I have great appreciation of my students who survived the sudden switch to online teaching in the middle of a semester. And basically just showing up and everybody always shows up here it's amazing and doing what we do. And it's the 20, I think today's the 21st of December. It's Christmas time, it's holiday time. I think we need to take a little bit of a break if maybe just a few days or something and relax and be people because we have been working so hard. We might not finish everything we do but we will finish some of it. And things we don't finish will be in better shape than they were before we started on it. We just have to be realistic and give ourselves credit for what we've done and take a little time off and enjoy the holiday. That's what I wanna say. Are there other counts or comments at this time on the memo? Okay. Then. It was a little bit late. I'm sorry, Mandy Joe, go ahead. It was just a little bit late and raising my hand. Just one comment, I must admit I didn't look closely at this before this meeting but in looking at it, I think one thing that would be helpful is things that have to get done versus things that are choices. I see on here budget and capital improvement plan those things that we do every year because we have to do them might be nice to separate out so that we know we can't get rid of those. I agree with you. That's it. In fact, you'll see there in the fourth one when we actually rank them, they actually get identified. Half must do, have to do required. We have to pass a budget. We found out tonight that we have to have passed two other bylaws too. But I can sort those out in the next round to begin with. Okay. I've also, by the way, asked Paul to look at this since he will identify things I think that he knows might be coming up that we just aren't aware of yet. Are there other comments on this at this point? He backed to make sure I don't miss a hand since I almost did. All right, then we are going to move on to the town manager appointments are already done. We have a town council appointment to the finance committee. I'm going to call on George Ryan to introduce that. Yes. We met at our last meeting and we interviewed three candidates. All of them were exemplary and we spent a fair amount of time trying to make the usual difficult decision. And we finally voted four to one to recommend Jane Scheffler to fill the position of non-voting resident member of the finance committee for a term that will end in June 30, 2022. We felt, and it's in the report, really I don't need to repeat it, but essentially that Ms. Scheffler brought an extraordinary energy and a passion. And we felt her voice would be an added addition to the work of the finance committee. She has strong background in finance, though it's in the nonprofit sector. And so I was four to one. The dissenting vote was in particular moved by another candidate strong background in schools, regional schools in particular. And that was what we did. So the motion is in accordance with the town council rules of procedure rule 10.9 to appoint Jane Scheffler as a non-voting member of the finance committee effective immediately for a term to expire June 30th, 2022 as recommended by the governance organization and legislation committee report of December 21, 2020. Is there a second? A second. Thank you. Thank you, Alyssa. I know nobody's in the mood for discussion, but I can't let this go. So here it goes. I'll try and talk really fast. I have no understanding as to why the GOL process is not described more thoroughly in the GOL report. We can talk all we want about having separate or the same processes for each of our committees, but we insist that the town manager include what feels like 75 elements in his appointment memos, and GOL has included almost nothing in theirs. For starters, they didn't attach their process. They didn't attach the statement of interest for the person they're recommending. There's a nice little paragraph, yes, but there's lots of stuff that isn't here. And we've been talking as a town council about how, well, we're not gonna pass the town manager's appointment if he doesn't give us XYZ piece of information. And now we ourselves are doing the same thing. So the GOL, yes, it's true. If you look in the GOL packet for the date of the meeting, it absolutely talks about their process and it absolutely talks about what their selection criteria is. And that's wonderful. And that should have been in the report to the town council. The town council should not have to go hunt for those things. Those things are in the town manager's report to the town council. And the other thing is, okay, so that's attachment. So suddenly we don't have to do attachments if we're one of the town council committees, but the town manager does. That's one issue. A second issue is that it's not described at all in section six where you talk about your particular process that your interview process is completely different than the previous OCA process. One would never guess that from just reading the words there, but you interview candidates one at a time, you ask them different questions based on their qualifications, not the same questions, and you don't have a consistent timeframe for any of their answers. So it's a very different, much more casual, I'm sure people are very fond of it and can defend it all day long. The point remains that when you have had a process in the past, as I said, when you disbanded OCA, which GOL is the group that pushed for that to happen, is that if you are going to ignore the OCA process, then you need to have a justification for doing so. Simply saying we had interviews is not a justification for why you have changed the process entirely associated with non-voting members of the finance committee. You might have a rationale for doing that. We haven't heard what it is. Most finally, and on a very minor point, but still an odd sticking point, is that it seems very strange that when we were on OCA and we complained about the fact that the finance committee was trying too hard to control the process, GOL now appoints the finance committee member that's non-voting and GOL has three of the five members or finance committee members. Again, that's a separate issue, but I am much more concerned with the fact that we have expectations for the town manager of what's supposed to be in the packet, expectations for the planning board and ZBA appointments of what's supposed to be in the CRC packet and GOL took a pass on all of those things. I don't think that just because the person is non-voting makes what they're doing any less important or we wouldn't bother having them there in the first place. I'm going to vote against the recommendation not because I don't think the person is qualified. I think I agree with you that they are all qualified. I heard their interviews. I'm just really frustrated by the lack of process here. George. Our process was given to the council many months ago was available to everyone. And this is the first I've heard of this particular complaint. So in the future, maybe people need to read the document and then communicate to us what their concerns are. It's not in your report, George, you know that. And it doesn't say in your process that you are going to have varying interview lengths, a varying amounts one at a time. It doesn't say that in your process. So no, I couldn't complain about a process that I didn't know the details of, you are exactly right. Sarah. So I would have to say also that one of the parting things that was said to OCA as we were disbanded was that people were very sure that other committees would be respectful of the process and or Alyssa's right, we would be, it would be something that was plainly told to the rest of the council. And so I have to say that I do find the fact that it was changed so radically, surprising, shocking, somewhat offensive. And it does feel disrespectful. I mean, CRC definitely deviated from it, but we did give very detailed reports all the way along about how the process was changed so that the rest of the counselors could talk about it. I have an issue with it. Marcy. I just wanted to say very quickly, this just goes to show that we should have a uniform process across all of our committees for all these, for application to join our council committees. Mindy Jeff. In defense of GOL, I think it's important to note that six months ago, GOL made a recommendation for a finance committee appointment and used the exact same process that it used to make this recommendation today. This process was adopted by GOL, was reported in GOL reports. I believe was even identified where things were modified from the OCA process that was transmitted to GOL in that process. I understand that maybe the GOL report this time didn't include some of the things that process would say it would normally include to the council, except at the same time, all of those items were forwarded to the council throughout the process. And so maybe the issue is not that the council didn't have them, but that the counselors want them multiple times in multiple locations so that they don't have to remember that they got it a week ago during the interview process itself and during the recommendation process, they want it just handed to them four times. If that's the case, then it would be helpful for the committee chairs to know that ahead of time when they're drafting their reports that they have to include the things they've already sent to the committee, to the council that comport with the process that was adopted at the time, the process told them to send it to the council because that was done. But I did want to point out that this is the same process that was used in June and July to recommend appointments to the finance committee then and none of this came up at that time. Evan? Yeah, so I just wanted to pipe in as someone who has written several reports on appointments. But I will say that when I read the report, I was a little disappointed at how short it was. I know OCA's first ever planning board report clocked in at like 30 pages and you all said, don't do that to us again. And so I'm certainly not expecting that. But I do know that when I wrote OCA reports, I did try to provide both a thorough discussion of, a thorough description of the discussion and the rationale and then also at least include the interview questions, which I understand would have maybe been difficult for this one in the selection guidance. I know we received it, but we received like 400 things every week. I'm going to be supporting this recommendation and I respect the right of GOL to alter the process now that it is their process. I went back and looked at the last GOL report, which also didn't have those attachments. And I want to recognize that I did not make a fuss with that one. But I did, looking at it, it did provide a little bit more depth of description. Did we just lose Evan? Yes, something happened. Evan, you just froze. It happened, Steve. Yeah, okay. Come back, he may have to re-log in. Dorothy? I do understand what Mandy Jo is saying and it does seem annoying to do it and it's a waste of paper. And when I get the town manager's appointments and I get the same criteria again and again and again, pardon me, and I print out stuff because that's how I do it. I think, oh, I'm wasting stuff. But the fact is it's really helpful. We get so much material and I'm sure Mandy Jo that you actually have, because I know you do. You have your computer organized in a much better way than I have mine. It's just sometimes you just say, I just can't go looking for it. I'll have to just do without it. So I think that we've all been yelling at the town manager for his reports and he's sending us all of these pieces of paper. We have them. If we want to look at it and check it, it's there. So I think that let's be uniform in that way. That we include all the material. I'm not upset that different people have different interview forms. I think as long as it's rational and you've agreed on it and it seems to get good people, great. But I do think that we should include all the relevant documents when we send things and maybe in the way that the town manager does. Thank you. Evan is trying to re-engage. However, he was done this comment. Is there anybody else would like to comment at this time? All right, then we're going to move to the vote. Motion's been made in second. I'll let me have the hand up. I'm sorry, Shalini. Just a quick question. There was some concern about the process and I'm just confused that, okay, so different committees have different processes for appointments and is that, are we all okay with that? And what is there going to be a discussion about it at some point? One of the lists, one of the items on the list is in fact that very issue. Okay. It's the issue both of what is the process and should our process be identical for all these appointments which would include planning board ZB and finance committee. Okay. Thank you. So when we get to the point of prioritizing that's one of the issues we'll decide on. Okay. Evan, you're back. Yeah, sorry, all my computer decided to restart at the most important moment of the meeting for me. So, but I was pretty much done. And just to sum up, I'm gonna support the recommendation. I ain't mad, but in the future, I am requesting that you all just provide a little bit more information regarding the discussion and the rationale behind appointments and the relevant attachments. Okay. Any further discussion? Hearing none, we're going to go to vote and we're starting with Steve Schreiber. What? Hi. Andy Steinberg. Hi. Sarah Schwartz. Hi. Melanie Baumann. Hi. Elizabeth. No. Pat D'Angeloz. Hi. Darcy DeMonte. Yes. Grace Merzai. Hannah Key. Hi. Pam. Hi. Ross. Hi. Ryan. Hi. Shane. Yes. Votes 12 in favor, one against or no and no abstentions. All right, we're going to move to the rest of the agenda, which is almost done, believe it or not. We're now moving to committee liaison reports. Mandy Jo, anything further for CRC? I will be very quick. This is not necessarily CRC related but more of the council related. The chair of the planning board had invited the CRC to a meeting of a presentation from Doug Hall of the PVPC regarding what the Pioneer Valley and Amherst are looking at with regard to the short-term and long-term effects of COVID on our communities. In consultation with Lynn, as president, I asked whether that would be something the whole council was potentially interested in. So instead of just CRC going and working with the planning board to attend that presentation, whether it should be the whole council, she agreed. And so I realized we hadn't actually announced that date yet. So that is January 20th, 2020. It will be at a planning board meeting. It will be noted as a full council meeting, assuming that there are enough counselors that are interested in it to do that. It will start at 6.30, and it is set to be approximately a 40-minute presentation with Q&A afterward. Okay, and we'll make sure you get all of the connections and everything else that need to go with that. Andy, finance committee. I don't think I have anything else to add at this point. Okay, let me just mention that on next, on the January 4th agenda is the memo regarding the inventory. It was in this meetings packet, it will be in next meetings packet. GOL, George, anything else? Nothing more. Kathy, JCPC, when's your meeting? It's not been set up yet, but in theory, it's starting in February. We don't have a date yet. Dorothy, no, Darcy. I guess I would just say that our next meeting is on January 7th. We had one presentation on the North Common, and I will be sending something out to counselors asking for further comment, hopefully not repeating ourselves. And we will be hearing about whether or not we're going to have staff back on the 7th and the 28th, or perhaps just the 28th, I'm gonna be talking to them about that. And hopefully they'll be able to respond to additional counselor questions. So that is ongoing. And Darcy, thank you for allowing us to join TSO for that presentation. I thought it was a very healthy discussion. I do believe we focused on the 28th as being the next time they would come back, but please let us know, okay? And that whenever it is, the counselors will be invited again to attend. There were 10 counselors that attended on the last meeting on Thursday. Yes, are there any liaison reports? Okay, we've done the minutes. Paul, town manager's report. You're muted, Paul. Technology has not been our friend tonight. Yeah, that's bingo. That's one of the bingo things we had for our staff party, if you said you're muted. So that's my second what Dorothy said, because I do think it's the end of the year, you should take some time and recognize that this council is not treading water. A lot of people are just trying to get through the year. You're taking on things still moving forward. So I think it's really important to recognize that and just congratulate yourselves on that. Couple of things I want to mention. One is testing is really important to us right now. The asymptomatic testing at UMass is continues going forward. Tomorrow we will have the second round of symptomatic testing. Very important for people if they feel they have symptoms or they're not eligible to go to UMass, they can come to Mill River and be tested for free. And we hope to have one more session like that after Christmas. And we're starting to see some serious uptick in COVID and community spread. We're seeing it even amongst our staff. We are de-densifying our buildings as best as we can. And we anticipate the next four, six, eight weeks to be pretty difficult times. So we want to make sure that we don't have spread within our staff. So we're trying to have people as many people as possible to work remotely during this next phase. If you have any questions, I can answer them. Amanda Jo. Yes, I had a question not about COVID and all, but the bang the table initiative that was in your report. Is that something that the council and council committees will be able to use for things like the zoning changes that we talked about the housing policy that you can tell I'm thinking CRC. But, you know, and how would we get either training or how would we, when it does go into effect, how would we work on getting it used? So we are able to purchase it using CARES money because it was a way to engage people remotely, which we needed to do. So that was the reason for us. We've been looking at it for a long time, but could never really justify the funds to do it. We were hoping to initiate it with the North Amherst Library because we want to try it out and see how it works. And so Brianna will be the, is the one who knows, she's the only one in on staff who knows anything about it. So with that, we're looking at using it. Then we started talking about, well, Pomeroy Village downtown, you know, all the different projects. It's a good place to congregate all the material and to let people weigh in, tag everything, communicate and whenever they're available instead of having to be at a certain meeting. So yeah, I think once we get it up and running, we know what we're doing. It can be used exponentially. Thank you. Kathy. Yeah, I was gonna, actually that was a question I had, Mandy too. And Paul, as you know, I sent you some questions that had come in from the community about the North Amherst Library. So there's interest in district one about featuring that. And then both Lynn and Pat said, combine it with something with district two because it's a shared feature. So I didn't know whether you're thinking of, you know, first just there's been a committee set up whether bang the table went a date, but if you give us any sense, we would do something that would combine it with letting people know that that's there as it was weighing in. The only comments I had, people were so excited about the design and you've already answered this. They were worried that it was just gonna disappear and you reassured, you know, that core sense of what it was gonna be. So I had one other question on a piece in the memo on an RFP for location, potential location for DPW. And my question, those were the memo we sent about DPW that when you do an RFP like that, are you gonna be saying, we need this amount of acreage, but it could vary from a low of this to a high of that because we had some discussion on, does DPW all have to be on one site or not? And I just wasn't sure how you do an RFP if you don't know what you're placing there. So maybe you're not that far along on that yet, but it was. So we have not issued the RFP, it's still in development, you know, in terms of, you know, our operating principle is that we have a location for DPW. I know there are other options out there people wanna consider, but at this point in time, we're looking at a location for FIRE DPW, the four projects that we've been operating under. We would probably put in a range of land that is needed. You know, we wanna, you know, we think we've identified all the parcels, but we just need to do our due diligence to see if there's maybe somebody sitting on something we aren't aware of and they wanna say, hey, I've got a bunch of acreage for you. So. And Paul, you're required to do an RFP for that purpose, right? Yeah. Okay. Dorothy, you have your hand up. Just a quick commercial. Today, we went to UMass for the non-symptomatic COVID test and it was so absolutely efficient and completely safe. And I figured out how to also to make the appointments on the internet, which was pretty good in the first place. So I just, if you haven't done it, I just wanna encourage you to do it. And I was happily surprised to find it was not that you didn't have to stick the thing all the way up your nose. It was the milder one where you go around the bottom nostril 10 times and then 10 times the other one. So it wasn't even horrible. So if you haven't done it, I would say do it so you get comfortable with the whole thing. Okay. Any other questions or comments about the town managers report? Okay. I have no further comments under the president's report. Any, I'm almost afraid to ask future agenda. Alyssa. Yes, I actually have two. One may, I assume they're gonna be handled through your future agenda items memo that's now informed by the previous priorities we all tried to state. One thing is that I've alluded to earlier this evening and then Darcy brought up as part of the TSO report. I think we as a council and then the next council might decide a different thing, but I think we as a council need to decide just as we have rules of procedure when it is that something's coming from the town council and when it is something's coming from 13 individual town counselors. And I have two topics for that item. One is the example of the North Common discussion we just had. So the counselors who weren't on the TSO did most of the talking at the TSO meeting. And those counselors, some of them had also written questions ahead of time. Some of them are going to continue to write questions, not all the questions that were asked at the meeting which were said didn't have to be answered then have been written down. And my question is as a town council, do we believe that despite the fact that the charter says things like we can call the town manager in front of us to ask certain questions if we give X amount of time. And of course we've never had to use that because we have a very cooperative town manager is that it's okay for us to take 13 sets of questions. And whether we recategorize them or not which we may not do effectively because we may not know what the person actually meant by their question and then expect the town manager to ask staff to answer 13 sets of questions or is it that we as a town council or as a TSO in this case, for example, say these are the things we're hearing about these are what we're concerned about that thing that those two counselors want to fight about that's just the two of them. This is what the town council wants to talk about. So I think we need to make that decision and I think the decision we are not we are not being consistent about this. And I also think that it depends on what's your particular hobby horse. And if everybody's fine with their hobby horse being the thing and so they won't complain about other people's hobby horses, I guess that's something but I think we should proactively make that decision either it's from the council or it's from individual counselors. It's not whichever the way the wind blows on a particular issue. And then feeding into that to feed my aggravation today we got the really kind and thoughtful email that we get from Paul every so often asking us for our priorities not for our town council priorities but for our individual town council priorities. It makes no mention of the performance goals that we struggled with to try and incorporate it all 13 of our ideas associated with them. It makes no mention of the finance committee guidelines we voted on tonight that represent the 13 of us. What it said was I want to know your personal goals for my performance and your personal goals for the budget. If I'm reading that as a counselor I'm like, cool, I'm set. I get my personal priorities. That's again, a conversation I think we need to have as a town council because it's all well and good if the town manager says, well, that's very nice Alyssa. Thanks for that. But over here I have these budget policy guidelines and I have these town manager goals. And so I appreciate that you explained better what you meant by that but it's not your personal goal. That's not what the email says. And I am not just complaining about the way the emails phrase, I'm complaining about the way we as a town council have a culture of I called the town manager and I got a thing. I called the town manager about my priorities. Either we're a body that works together or we're 13 individuals all talking about our own agendas. I think we need to make a clear statement as to what we are as we're going into the next town council so that the next town council knows what to expect. Are there any other future agenda items? Any other final councilor comments? No other topics, no executive session. I wish you all a happy holiday in whichever way you plan to celebrate it and be safe, enjoy. But we're dismissed, we are adjourned I should say. Dismissed, I'm dismissed, I'm dismissed, I'm adjourned.