 All right, so we're going to, I'm starting recording again. Let's pick up from where we paused. This way to go recording to start. Okay, so the recording is on. Welcome back to the second session here on Precision Apologetics. We are continuing our discussion on understanding suffering. Let me just pick up the question there from Christopher. According to the Bible, is it wrong to file a court case against someone else? Now, what the Bible does teach us, and this is especially with respect to other believers, and you'll find this in Matthew chapter 18 and also in the first current in chapter six, the Bible teaches us to try and resolve problems between ourselves with the help of spiritual leaders or godly leaders. So that's the biblical pattern to resolve problems, you know, whatever the problems are. Now, if that does not happen, then the believer is left with no option but to go to the court. So in that case, you know, there is no recourse, but to go to the court and get things addressed legally or in a lawful manner. And that is not wrong because government is also an institution given to us by God. That is Romans chapter 13, right? So to answer your question, the first step as believers, especially both parties involved in the dispute are believers. The first step is to see if that could be solved through the intervention of godly people, leaders. If that's not there, then the second best or the other option that's there is the government, which is the legal system and it's not wrong because Romans 13 does tell us that those institutions are also established for us by God. Going back to this example I was giving for the same business people, you know, way back maybe 10 years ago, I think there was again a dispute between people. So, and these both sides of believers again, it was a business related matter. And I remember we, you know, so the first thing they did at that time was they said, you know, let's just go and get the pastor to help us. And so all that was a business situation. The nice thing that happened was they came and met with me. And of course, before they came, I said, you know, we shared all the information, let me have a look, you know, see these things. And then we had a meeting and, you know, and in the office we sat down and, you know, then we arrived at a solution. All right, so, you know, what was owed and what had to be paid and all of that. And then we just sorted the matter out. It never went into a legal course. So that was nice, you know, at that time. And the good thing was both parties were willing to receive that kind of an intervention from a spiritual leader, although this was in a business matter, and they were willing to do it. So that was a good thing. And that was resolved and the parties moved on. But in what's happening right now with this business, which I will stop just telling you about, that's totally a different thing because one side, the one side is they are Christians by name, but not believers. So they're doing all these things, causing problem. Okay, is that okay, Krisha, but does it answer your question? Okay, okay, let's go back to notes. So what we were saying is sometimes there is suffering that's caused by what other people do. I'll just go a little fast so that I can finish this. And, you know, so when people are against us, people do things against us, you know, we always use the Bible as our way of responding, right? That means we don't turn around and we don't, you know, fight, you know, return evil for evil, like Romans 12 says, right? So overcome evil with good. That's our guiding principle that when people are doing things against us, our goal is to overcome evil with good and we don't fight back evil with evil, but there's nothing wrong in, you know, taking preventive measures to protect ourselves or praying for the people and asking God to intervene and so on. So when, you know, when people do things, evil things against us again, there can be a lot of questions even on this aspect. You know, why did God allow those people to do such things? Why doesn't God just try to come down or why doesn't God just change their minds? Or, you know, why is God letting those people do these kinds of evil things against me or against, you know, whoever, the believers? Why doesn't God just stop them? So that kind of brings us to another question, is how do you understand divine protection versus persecution? Because we do have amazing stories of divine protection, you know, where as believers, you know, we just say, God, no evil shall befall me, no weapon formed against me shall prosper and God that divinely protects us people from the violence of men. So we have those kinds of testimonies. And then on the other hand, we also have so many people who face the pain of violence, you know, they are persecuted, they are beaten, they are, all things happen, those kinds of things do happen. And so how do we reconcile it? I mean, why is it that there are these testimonies of people being divinely protected by God? I mean, why was Daniel protected in the lion's den? And yet why were there so many Christians burnt as torches in Nero's garden and thrown as entertainment to animals and they died? Why was Paul killed the way he was killed and Peter killed the way he was killed? And why didn't God just, you know, powerfully stop it and protect his people? Because after all his words, as no evil shall befall you, his words as no weapon formed against you will prosper. How do we, you know, we have both these and how do we reconcile that in our minds? I'd just like to hear from the class. What do you think, you know, we're talking about the fourth point, suffering from, because of the actions of other people. And we're having both these scenarios. How do you reconcile them in your mind? You understood my question or... Sir, can you please repeat it again, sir? Okay. Okay. Yeah. So we are talking about this fourth point that is suffering because of the actions of other people. Now, as believers, we know what the Bible says, the promises of divine protection, where the Bible says, you know, no weapon formed against you will prosper. Or no evil shall befall you, no plague will come near dwelling. He will give his angels charge over you. The angel of the Lord encamps around you and delivers you. The righteous will not be visited with evil. You know, do you tell me 28? Your enemies will come before you one way, they'll flee before you seven ways. As a 41, you know, everyone who rises up against you, they will be dismayed, they will be... I mean, there's just so many scriptures of divine protection. And yet, divine protection against the actions of men. And yet we see both. We see testimonies of people, divinely protected. And at the same time, we see people who suffer because of the violence of others. So example, I'm just quoting some examples in the Bible. For instance, we see Daniel, divinely protected in the lion's den. We see Shadrach, Peshach, Abednego, divinely protected in the fire. And yet in the same Bible, we see Paul was stoned and left for dead. We see, you know, what happened to Peter and Paul, they were just killed by the Romans, Romans of the Emperor Nero. We see Stephen was stoned to death. And so many examples. So Hebrews chapter 11 brings out both, you know, it talks about those who stopped the mouths of lions and escaped the edge of the sword and those who were so on a sander and, you know, suffered. So how do we as believers reconcile the two? Or if you want to look at this, it's very interesting in Revelation chapter two and three, to the church in Philadelphia and to the church in, what was the other church in Sardis or, I think it was the church in Smyrna. So there are two churches, the church in Smyrna and the church in Philadelphia. To both these churches, the Lord Jesus says, there is the synagogue of Satan that's coming against you. Synagogue simply means the assembly of Satan. That means there are these people who are actually demonically empowered. But to the church in Smyrna, he says, these people are going to attack you, they're going to put some of you in prison. To the church in Philadelphia, he says, I'm going to make the synagogue of Satan come and bow before you. Now, I definitely would love to be part of the church in Philadelphia and see that the synagogue of Satan comes and worships before the church. But why is it that for the church in Smyrna, it's the same situation, there's a synagogue of Satan, but they are going to be attacked and put into prison and he says to them, be faithful even unto death. How do you reconcile these two things? On the one hand, there are people are divinely protected, on the other hand, people are attacked and suffer. These are both believers. How do we reconcile the two? And that's the question. Is that clear, Rupa? Is my question clear? Yes, yes sir, yes sir. Can I share, sir? Please go ahead. My understanding, I came to reconcile this in my heart. Over the period, in the beginning, I thought I should be protected by God because I believe in him. But through the process of this life, I have learned that when I need to face persecution, God is faithful to give me the faith to stand and take it. And I think according to the purpose he wants to accomplish through me, he'll give me the faith to face it. And then sometimes he gives me the faith to be protected in those situations. Both faith comes from God. And I should be willing to understand his plan and purpose for that situation. And he's so faithful that he'll give me the strength to go through it or overcome it. That is the understanding I gained through experience, sir. Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you for sharing. Very good. Samuel? I do think, Pastor, it's, I think to God's glory and his purpose. For example, if Daniel was... Sorry, can you hear me? Yes, of course. So I'm thinking God's purpose and his glory. And in situation like if Daniel was eaten by the lion, and Paul and the apostles never faced any persecution and if Christianity was readily accepted as the state religion, the circumstances would be very different. So Daniel receiving divine protection from God in the lion's day in Shadrach, Meshach, Abedinah were receiving divine protection. Glorified God in a foreign land and made the king of Babylon accept and worship the living God. And the apostles being persecuted encouraged other apostles to then boldly go out and fulfill the great commission. So that's how I'm trying to reconcile the two. Yes, okay. Thank you for sharing, Samuel. I see Brother Manohar's comments on the chat as well. Anybody else wants to say something? How do we reconcile these two things? You know, suffering, violence, the hands of people and then also experiencing divine protection. Kennedy, go ahead. Thank you, thank you. I think it's quite an interesting and very challenging scenario. But I think the thing is, you're very active in the kingdom of darkness. You might lose physicality, but we're spiritually dependent on our faith because we have a time limit on this kind of situation. We are not permanent. Thank you. Okay. Kennedy, I'm sorry, I couldn't get what you said. Can you repeat it, please? Or can you type it out? Yeah, what I'm saying is, we live in a world that is dominated by the demonic of a certain, we are operating in a kingdom, in an app. So we are bound to lose physically, but we're spiritually. So it's a scenario that it's temporary. It's a test on our faith and about belief. Thank you. Okay. Okay, so what I did hear was you said we may lose physically, but we're beginning spiritually. It's a temporary thing, but beginning eternally. Yeah, that's what I kind of got. Is that what you were saying, Kennedy? Did I get you right? All right. Okay. Thank you. Okay. Anybody else? You know, how do you, how do we reconcile the two? I'm just purposely opening up for the class so that we can think through on this. Anita says, grain of wheat dies and produces more fruit. Yeah. Anybody else? Right there. I see Samuel, 9510. Christopher, go ahead, please. Yes, Pastor, I mean, my view on it, you know, you look at things that happened now and things that happened in the past. So one of the things, one of the, I mean, one of the worst events that ever happened was the persecution of the Jews, you know, during Second World War in scale and the extent of how they were persecuted in concentration camps. And I just think that, you know, there are, I think there's some times we now, sometimes we can reconcile it. God has, you know. Two things, and the first thing that they were, this is me. Sorry. Go ahead, Christopher. Charles, you can speak after Christopher. So I was just saying that the extent and, you know, a scale of what happened and for how long it happened also, you know, even was probably propagated in its worst way. And to some extent, you know, in small ways it happens, you know, when you read about things that are happening, where people are in part and do certain things and that it affects people's lives. So I think it's, my view on this is that sometimes you cannot rationalize, you know, God allows for it. And there are times when it deviants and we can't, I mean, we can't really rationalize, you know, when it has, when he does it and when he, you know, kind of steps back, yeah. All right, thank you. Charles, last comment, last set of comments, then we'll wrap this up. Were you saying something earlier, Charles? No, okay. All right. Yeah, so thanks to each one for sharing your thoughts on this and, yeah, Anita, go ahead. I just wanted to share my doubt that is it that because they are not standing in their authority in Christ and not standing on the word of God, because that is what we have been like, it's the foundation for us, right? And is it that because that's why they're suffering? Or even one more thought I have is like, where God has told that I will not let you be tasted beyond your capacity because God knows our capacity. So is that their capacity that they can go through all of it? Two thoughts I have. Yeah, and I think the way Rupa shared this was really wonderful, where she said, there is faith in our hearts and sometimes it's faith to go through it and sometimes it's faith to overcome it. So what should we do as believers in the light of the fact that there are people who will do evil against us? Sometimes it's evil because we are Christians and sometimes it's just generally evil in the world. People are just being mean to other people. What should we do? And here's what I wanted to just say in a brief. One is we must believe God for divine protection and as we start with the word of God. So we are bold and fearless because we believe God will divinely protect us from every scheme of man, right? So we, like Anita was just saying, we stand with faith in the word of God and we believe that as long as we are doing what God wants us to do, God will protect us. And to that extent, I even say it like this, we are indestructible when we are, and I use the word indestructible in a limited sense, not when we are in the will of God, we are standing in faith in the word and believing that God will protect us. Secondly, we need to do our part naturally for our own protection. You know, one of the things we are involved in is trying to help other churches and especially right now in our own state here in Karnataka and actually in other parts of India, a lot of, there's a lot of persecution happening. And so we have this work going on. It's called India Care Project and some of you are actually helping us on that and the India Care Project. And we are calling, you know, we have this database about 11,000 pastors around the country. So we call, we ask how they're doing. And more recently, the recent weeks in our own state of Karnataka, there have been several attacks on churches. And one of the things I told one of the people who's working on this project is, you know, you only call the pastors, find out what is happening, you know, see, sometimes we are on the wrong side, meaning if a pastor is running a church without having it registered, then it's very difficult to, without legally having that entity registered, it's very difficult to provide any form of help to them when they're being attacked. So I told them, you know, see, find out are these churches registered? You know, or are these sometimes, you know, people conduct services in their homes and then they're being a nuisance to the neighbors, but in the sense, you know, they have this loud worship going on. So obviously neighbors are disturbed and then they call, you know, call these miscreants to come and disturb or do things like that. So then obviously we can't protect them because look, we are at fault, you know, we're running a church in a house and making so much noise. Obviously neighbors are disturbed and they call people to trouble. So, you know, so the point is I told, you know, I told this person, one of the people working on the India care project, I said, see, when you speak to the pastors, find out, you know, are they registered? What is, what is the real cause, why they're being attacked? How long have they been put in jail? How are they coming out? Because then we can know exactly where to help them. But the point is we need to do what we can to protect ourselves. You know, we have to be on the right side of the law. If we are on the wrong side of the law and then we try to defend ourselves, actually we are in a, we are in a disadvantageous position. You know, and last Sunday, one of our services, our church in Palo da Bazaar, that's in Chattisgarh, North India, our pastor was there and, and these people came out in front of the church, started making noise and, you know, wanting to disrupt and then immediately they called the police, police came and the police, local police were supporting the church, which was so unusual, you know, especially in North India. And we have a video of that where the policeman standing in front of the church building was supporting the church and he was out, you know, he was just challenging these people who had come to disturb the service, saying, why are you doing it? You know, now, very important, now we've had these problems happen in the same church several years ago and, but very important was, we, you know, we are on the right side of the law, that means, you know, we have our own building, we have our own land, we're not doing anything illegal, it's a registered organization, we have given all the documents to the police, so legally we're on the right side, you know, we're not, and from there we can, you know, we can, so we ask for police protection coming, so service on Friday and Sunday, you know, somebody let us say, hey, we want the police to stand there because we're gonna have services and we don't want these people to come and try and hurt the congregation. So the second thing is, you know, we do in the natural, what we have to do to protect the church or the, you know, to protect ourselves and there's nothing wrong with that. So our faith is God will protect us. Secondly, we do our part of being, our conduct must be blameless, right? We must do our part to protect ourselves, there's nothing wrong with that. You know, Jesus said when they persecuted you, one said they flee to another. Why did he say, you know, go to another? Why? Because you're most, you're more useful to God alive than dead in most cases, right? So, you know, you take care of your own life so that you can continue serving God. So you protect yourself. Now, in spite of this, if we have to suffer, it will not shake our faith in God. It's not gonna shake our faith in God. And we will endure it gladly and we counted the privilege to be counted worthy to suffer shame for his name. Okay, so that's kind of the approach we take. One is, we believe God will only protect us. We use the word of God. Second, we do what we have to do in the natural to make sure we are protected. And third, even if, even if, that's when we say, look, it's we counted with an honor to suffer shame for his name. So that's kind of the an approach towards this suffering because I'm talking from a believer's perspective, from a believer's side, right? Suffering because of other people's actions. Okay, and there is nothing wrong in doing what we need to do in the natural to protect ourselves. You know, don't think of it as an act of unbelief now. Jesus himself said, when they persecuted in one city, you flee to another. You go to a place where you are protected. So there's nothing wrong in doing that. And, you know, here in India and some parts of it, we have police to stand in front of the church because say there are these people are unnecessarily, we're not instigating them, but they're unnecessarily coming to attack the church. And as long as we keep good relationships with the police and say, hey, you come in, you know, we've done everything right. All our papers are intact. Everything's right. So you're obligated by law to protect us. We can do that. Okay. Any other thoughts on this? Okay. Yeah, I'm taking this class a little slow. I didn't expect it to take so much time, but it's okay for us to think through on these things. Okay. Yeah. So I see Prabhakar's comment there on Stephen and I also see Paul Betts comments about Paul when he escaped trouble and times when he went into it boldly. Okay. Yeah. So in all these things and our faith is in God, we are fearless and we are expecting God to protect us, move on our behalf and so on. Okay. But, and yeah. All right. So let's just move on to the next one. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Okay. Yeah. I'm just seeing the comments in the chat and yeah. So, yeah. So that's this whole issue of divine protection versus persecution, which is, you know, which is kind of real right now what's happening across India. And yeah. All right. Number five. This also might be a very big, big point is suffering due to divine discipline and judgment. Okay. Now, there are two levels and again, I'm sharing my understanding here. There are two levels of divine discipline or divine dealings, right? One is what we, what I would call as divine discipline, which is like as a parent lovingly corrects their child. Secondly, there is divine judgment where it's punishment for wrongdoing, right? It's God dealing with the wrong that has been done. Okay. So there are two separate things and these have to be understood separately. Divine discipline and divine judgment. Now, divine discipline is something that we all experience, all of us. Okay. And it's what's talked about in Hebrews 12 where he, the writer of Hebrews says, you know, if a father doesn't correct his own and use a father, he's talking using a father's son analogy. So then, you know, then you're illegitimate children. I mean, if a father doesn't care about correcting, then you know, you're not even own children, you know, but God corrects everyone whom he loves, he corrects, right? But he corrects us lovingly. And how does he bring about that correction primarily through the scriptures because all scripture is given for instruction and correction. So the correction happens through the scriptures and it also happens by the prompting of the Holy Spirit. So the Holy Spirit prompts us, he corrects us in our hearts and then also through other people. So, you know, God can speak to us through other people and tell us, hey, you need to get things right. So, but all of this is God's loving correction in our lives. And for most of us, you know, we recognize this and we yield to the correction, whether it comes to the reading of the scripture, whether it comes through the prompting of the Holy Spirit or whether it comes through other people, we receive that. It's, okay, God, you're speaking, I receive it. I will align myself to your loving correction. I will make the changes I need to make and, you know, move forward with that. Now, if a believer is unwilling to respond to God's loving correction coming through the Holy Spirit, to respond to God's loving correction coming through his word and his Spirit and through other people, then the believer is willfully stepping into disobedience. And, you know, God always gives us time to repent, right? That means just because a believer is disobedient one day or an initial stage of his or her life, doesn't mean fire and brimstone falls from heaven. You know, God doesn't do that. He's giving people time to repent. Okay, you know, yeah, this person is willfully ignoring my loving correction and going their own way, but I'm going to be patient. I'm going to try to get them back, get them in alignment to what I want for them. And we must keep in mind that, you know, to whom much is given, much is required. So when God has given you a lot of revelation and responsibility in the kingdom, the, what he expects from us is also much higher and the consequence of disobedience will also be much more severe. Okay, let me keep that in mind. And I think it's in James four or James three. James tells us that, you know, it says, don't be too many of you don't try to be teachers because you know that you're going to be judged with a stricter judgment, you know? So this is in James three and verse one. Yeah, so who much is given, much is expected, required. Now, in divine judgment, this is a place where people have gone way off. God is, you know, they've kind of like extended, they've really stretched God's time for repentance. They've really drifted away. And then God has to call them to a place of repentance. See in this loving correction, repentance is immediate. We yield to his correction, we say, okay, God, I'm sorry. I'm aligning myself to what you've said in your word or your spirit or you've spoken to me to people. I'm aligning myself. I'm taking correct direction in my life and we move on. So it's simple. You don't find anything happening. This probably for all of us, it happens on almost, you know, weekly basis or regular basis. This, you know, God is dealing with us and we are walking, you know, very carefully with God. But if a believer walks away into disobedience and God is just giving them time to repent and they refuse to repent, then you find God's discipline, God's judgment coming on to call people to repentance. So really this judgment is a call to repentance. And we see a lot of this in the Old Testament. Now, I don't want to say that maybe in the contemporary church, we don't actually dwell on this aspect of God very much. You know, Paul in Romans 11, he talks about the goodness and severity of God. This is Romans 11, 22. He tells, he's writing Romans, and he says, consider the goodness and severity of God. In the contemporary church, there's a whole emphasis on goodness of God, which we need, definitely we need that because people need to know God is a good God. But we don't hear too much of people speaking about the severity of God. That is, hey, look, there are consequences of willful disobedience and an unwillingness to repent. There are consequences. God is a good God. There's a goodness of God, but there's also the severity of God. And Romans 11, 22, Paul is saying, hey, consider the goodness and severity of God. You look at how God dealt with his own people, the Jewish people. There was a goodness of God, but there was also the severity of God. There was a goodness of God extended to the Gentiles, but there was a severity of God towards his own people, the Jews, right? So we need to keep this in balance. There's the goodness of God. There's a severity of God. And the severity of God is actually really his call to repentance. It's his call for us to come back to him, right? And keep in mind that even in judgment, even in judgment, there is hope of finding mercy and healing. There is hope, right? Even in judgment, God never judges to destroy. God judges to bring us to repentance. And so therefore, in his judgment, there's actually mercy, healing, mercy and healing available. And, you know, God calling people back to judgment. But now, how does this happen? How does God's judgment bringing people to repentance? How does it happen? How does he do it? And these are things we need to understand, right? Because sometimes the incorrect thing is to attribute every bad thing as God's judgment. So for example, if a believer is, you know, going down the street and they trip and fall, oh, God is judging me. Maybe I did something wrong. No, you tripped and fell because maybe there was, you know, a stone in the way, or maybe, you know, the footpath wasn't laid out properly. Somebody didn't do their job well. Or maybe, you know, you just weren't being attentive or, you know, watchful in your step. So that's the wrong interpretation of divine judgment. Because sometimes believers attribute every mishap, everything that, any wrong thing that happens, a bad thing that happens as God's judgment, you know. And so we need to pause and we need to understand this aspect of suffering correctly. Okay, so our time is up again. Hmm, all right. Are you all with me so far? Or did I lose anybody? Okay, all right. So we need to pick this up, all right, and understand this. Meaning there is God's loving discipline, but then there is God's divine judgment. When does that happen? And, you know, and how does God do that? He shouldn't attribute every bad thing to God's judgment, some things, you know, if you're working in the kitchen and you cut yourself, not all of that's God's divine judgment. No, it's, you know, something happened. So we need to understand things correctly. Let's pause here and we will pick this up again next week and hopefully we'll finish this, this whole subject of suffering. Okay, let's go for a break and then I will see you all in the next class. Can somebody just pray with us and dismiss us? Who would like to pray? Somebody, okay. Bula, why don't you pray and dismiss us, please. Most gracious and loving heavenly Father, Father in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we come into your presence. We thank you so much, Father, for filling us with your comfort, Lord, and your encouragement. Lord, in all of these things, Father, as your word says, blessed to be the God and the Father of the Lord, Jesus Christ, who is the God of comfort? And he's a God of encouragement, Lord. And he's a God of mercy. So, Lord, we just want to receive that this morning of Father, Lord, your encouragement and your comfort and your strength, Lord, even as we pass through the season, Lord God, you are not unaware of the things that is happening around us, but, Lord, in the middle of all these things, this is our proclamation, like the psalmist says, Lord, that we will go from strength to strength, Lord, till we see you face to face in Zion, O God. So we just pray for strength for each one of us and all the believers, Lord, in India and across the world, that we will walk in strength, God, and, Lord, we will see your face, Lord, and we'll also be a strength to others, Lord, and that, as the Bible says, Father, that we receive the comfort so that we can comfort others in the time of trouble. We just pray that we will be comforted and also we will comfort others in the time of trouble, O God. So we thank you for this teaching, O God. We receive it and we will pray blessings upon each one of us this day. Lord, we thank you. In Jesus' name, we pray. Amen, Lord. Amen, amen. Thank you. Thank you so much. Take a quick break and I'll see you in the next class. God bless each of you. Bye now. Thank you, Pastor. Thank you, Abraham. Hope everything is going good. Yes, Pastor, Bible's good. Good, good. Thank you. Bye now.