 Ron, you were involved in a hazardous incident that occurred in your office in the United States Probation Office in Owensboro, Kentucky. Yes. At that time, how long had you been a U.S. probation officer? Approximately 17 and a half years. And could you summarize for us what safety skills training you'd had to that point in your career? Safety skills, skills in defusing violent offenders, crisis intervention techniques, that kind of thing. Several, I hadn't had any training recently. Several years ago we did some training in crisis intervention in the Louisville Probation Office. Three probation officers had gotten training in crisis intervention and they came back to our district for training in our district. And his trainers, they put on little episodes in the office and we did some role playing with that. And essentially that's all the training I'd had in that regard. Can you tell us what the security measures were, what security measures were in effect in the Owensboro office at the time of this incident? We had almost no security at the office. We had one court security officer who was on the second floor. His primary responsibility, however, was to guard the courtroom. And he was conscientious enough that he roamed the federal building to look in as a safety person throughout the building. But it was sort of out of his job description. We had a duress alarm system at certain locations in the building. There was, in our office, there was one underneath the secretary's desk and one underneath my desk. And that's basically it for the whole building. Was there any kind of a metal detector at the main entrance? No. There was no magnetometer and there was no X-ray machine at the main entrance. We were a field office and we just really don't have that much court that goes on in the building. Generally speaking, once or twice a month is all that we have a district court in our courthouse. Now, as we get to the incident itself, could you sort of set the stage for us perhaps by telling us what the situation was in the office before the incident, what you were doing in the office before the incident itself started? It was nothing unusual or remarkable. Not that day came in and opened the office. The secretary had resigned in the office prior to that so I was in the waiting room by myself. Having not been there the preceding day, I was taking messages off the answer phone for me. I had previously gotten the mail and I had the mail in front of me that had to open and date stamp. Were there any other officers working at that time? No. There was one man office or was a one man office at that time so I was doing it all. So I was taking the messages off when David Russell came in and I was in the reception area. Now, and David Russell I take it was someone who was under your supervision at that time. And there came a time on that day when the door opened, David Russell entered the office and then what happened after that? Right. I may need to back up a little bit. Just prior to his coming in there was a hang-up call say ten minutes before he came in which subsequently I found out he had called to see if I was back. He came in the day before and as I indicated earlier I was not there and the court security officer saw him and he said he was looking for me and he said well he's out he'll be in tomorrow. So when Mr. Russell came in I greeted him and said I understand that you were looking for me I was going to call you a little bit later and as I was greeting him he turned around and shut the door behind him going into the waiting room. So you're both in the reception area, the waiting room area at this point and he shut the door. Mm-hmm. What did he do then? Well he pulled out a .38 caliber revolver, I noted that it was either chrome or silver plated and he held it in his right hand, aimed it at me and said that he was going to kill me. What happened after that? My first thought, well my first thought was this really can't be happening to me but then I was thinking you know where do I go, what do I do, how do I defuse this thing. Mr. Russell was between me and the secretary's desk so in order to get around to the silent alarm to get the security guard in I would have had to go right in front of him so I knew that wouldn't work so I was thinking you know I've got to keep him calm I'm just going to try to talk him out of it and I've got to get some help up here because I'd been on vacation I knew I was going to have paperwork to do so I had not brought my revolver in I was without any form of protection so I was going to have to rely on some outside source so while talking to him I said come on into my office we need to talk about this there's nothing so bad that we can't work out. So very slowly and very gradually without turning my back on him I'll back into my office where I could get to the duress alarm at my desk. Just backing up for a moment to the point where you where Mr. Russell first pulled the weapon on you I take it he pointed it at you at that time yes and do you remember physically what his state was at that time could you do you have any memory of of what he looked like physically? He was agitated he was wearing what I think is commonly known as a ski parka it was not cold that day but he had the ski parka zipped all the way up which meant that the parka came right to his chin that was the first thing I noticed that first of all why is he wearing a jacket and second of all why is it zipped to his chin but he was he was agitated and I had previously recommended that he go to a psychiatric hospital and get diagnosis and also to perhaps get medication and he obviously was not on medication because he was you know twitching a little bit and so in addition to pointing the gun at you and threatening to kill you it sounds like there was other physical behavior going on it was certainly was was alarming to see. He was talking louder than usual and as the dialogue continued he kept getting louder and louder and again that was unusual for him because he had been very soft-spoken prior to that. How long had you been supervising him to this point? It it had been approximately four months from the time he got out of prison until I recommended that he go into the mental hospital he had been in there approximately a month when he was out on a furlough when this episode happened. And that your awareness of that history that he had of mental illness did that inform the choices that you made or the things that you did in the office when he was confronting you did were the things that you did with that history in mind? Yes I was trying to keep from unnerving him or do anything to startle him. He through accident or design he stayed too far away from me to do anything other than talk to him I couldn't get to the gun or to him to do anything about it he was close enough that I could see that there were bullets in the gun I mean I could literally see the rounds in the gun but he was far enough that I could not get to him before he could pull the trigger. It sounds though like like right from the beginning you made an effort to remain calm yourself is that fair to say? For sure because all I could do at that point was talk with him I didn't have any really any other alternative so it wasn't all I all I could hope to do was to get to the silent alarm. And was that a plan that that came to mind almost right away to get to the alarm to get him? I really didn't have any other alternative I couldn't get to him he seemed like this was a focus on his part that he was going to do it I didn't know how much leverage I would have talking him out of it so that was that was the game plan. Was there anything that you did physically yourself with your body or your gestures to kind of try to signal to him that you were going to cooperate that he should relax a little bit did you were you able to send him any kind of a physical signal that this would be alright or that you weren't going to to push this? Well I tried to a lot of people in law enforcement carry weapons on their waist and I kept my hands out in front of me so he could see that I wasn't going for a weapon or I wasn't doing anything aggressive. When I got back to my desk and came around I kept I had had my hands out the whole time and when I put my hands on my desk it was as though to help me lower myself into my chair and in actuality I used my small finger on my right hand to push the silent alarm under my desk and that again because I had my hands out that didn't cause any suspicion on his part. See I wondered how you were able to actually press the duress alarm when presumably he was watching you the whole time he was focused on you that's how it happened just backing up for a minute to when you're back there in the reception office and there you are you're all alone in the office a man comes in pulls a gun on you threatens to kill you how how do you manage to stay calm and come up with a plan of action in circumstances like that I don't have any answer for that and I'm if it were to happen tomorrow I'm not sure that I would handle it in exactly the same fashion it was almost as though it was happening to another person it was like I was kind of outside myself I and it was almost like it was in slow motion again I don't know that'll happen the same way again but that was the way it happened to me one of the things that was of concern when he shut the door the door automatically locked so I knew that I was locked in there with him too so that also created a problem in my mind but most of the things that I did were conscious thoughts that I had did you ever have an impulse to to do something physically either to rush him or to try and get the gun from him did you ever thoughts like that ever come to mind no it really didn't because he kept the gun on me the whole time and it was far enough I just really thought that he would have he would have shot me before I got that close and he seemed to be getting more and more agitated that there was never a situation or time at that during the situation where I could have done anything I don't think and one of the things that you did do though is you you began talking to him I think you said in the soothing manner what kinds of things did you say to him well he was kind of in response to what he was telling me he told me that I was what was wrong with the system that I thought he was crazy I'd put him in with a bunch of crazy people and that I was what was wrong with the system and that he was going to kill me and this it was all my fault and what I was doing as I was responding to what he was saying you know I said you know you wrote 400 letters threatening president Bush you know that you've got to know that I've got to do something about that we want to give you help does your mother know you're here you know have you taken your you know medicine I'm basically I'm I'm trying to calm him I'm also trying to buy a time right and each time he responds his voice keeps getting a little bit louder and so that's I'm trying to say things that I think will lower that voice level and hopefully do away with the agitation and at this point is anything coming into your mind is there any kind of a tape that's playing in your mind that says I've got a you know that comes back from training or other experience you've had along the way that says I've got to keep this person calm I've got to show him physically that that I'm not going to do anything aggressive toward him was anything like that I can't pinpoint any specific training that said that it was just the common sense thing that I thought to do now whether this common sense is based on the crisis intervention training or psychology one-on-one I don't know I just knew that I didn't want him to act hard to do what he said he was going to do and I wanted him calm I wanted him to think that I was not a threat and I wanted to give the support security officer enough time to get there it sounds like you did remain calm or as calm as anyone could remain under those circumstances so that in fact instead of carrying out that threat right after he'd entered the room which he could have done you were able to talk to him keep him talking and gradually implement this plan that you had to move over toward your office where the duress alarm was what do you think would have happened if if you hadn't remained calm if you'd react emotionally in that situation I really think he would have shot me I think he would have shot me in the waiting room I think if I had had a confrontation with him at the beginning I think he would have shot shot me then I'm also I also think that he might have shot me if I had turned around I I never I always stared him in the face because I just felt then and think now it's harder to kill somebody when somebody is staring you right in the eye and when I went into the office I never even turned my head I always faced him so you're always backing up and you always had eye contact right with him were you successful I know he raised his voice more as time went on but were you successful in engaging him in conversation I mean did was he responding to things that you said and taking the time to take that information in and think about it briefly he had written these 400 threatening letters and when I said you had to know that I had to do something you know he responded well you didn't have to put me in with all the crazy people you didn't have to get have them give me drugs you know he was giving me some answers but they weren't real long and I was hoping to get a long answer that would give him something else to think about others them why he had come to the office we able ever to give him or offer to him other possible courses of action say that well there might be another way to handle this or we can resolve this in some other way for him to consider he was living with his mother at the time and I said you know have you talked you know does your mother know you're here no what you know do we need to talk to your mother about this maybe we can work something you know and I was trying to do that but he wasn't buying anything any conversation about his mother so I didn't really know any other way to channel the conversation and then when when you actually got up and got to the office I take it at that point he was more excited very much so and what did he do physically at that point well right after I pushed the Durres alarm he didn't see that there was no indication that he knew what I had done but it was at that point he brought the gun up to eye level and cocked it he was close enough not much more than across my desk so he really wouldn't have even had to aim it at that point he was so close but he did bring it up to eye level and aim it and cocked it and said he was going to kill me throughout all this he was uttering a lot of expletives and so on but it was at that point that I knew that the conversation was coming to an abrupt end how did you feel at that moment actually I had two thoughts one our feelings one of them was just a real gut-wrenching feeling of sorrow for loss of contact with my family the other which is on a much lower pain level as I wondered is it going to hurt which I guess I kind of hate to admit but I thought I was going to die and with all that going on inside of you and all of that going on in front of you you did nevertheless managed to to push the button unnoticed and shortly thereafter the security officer came into the reception area right and what happened at that point what was the sequence at that point at that point the noise caused well when the security our officer opened the door and stuck his head in he thought that it was a false alarm and so he didn't have a weapon out he was really getting ready to say to me you've pushed the button in incorrect layers an accident or whatever so anyhow when he stuck his head in it was almost a thing of gulp because there's a guy with a gun getting ready you know getting ready to shoot me but anyhow Russell spun around with the gun still up both hands ready to fire toward the security guard and when he spun around toward him that's the first time since the scenario started that he had ever gotten his attention diverted from me so was at that point I thought he was going to shoot Roy the security guard the security guard so I yelled at Roy and jumped up to try to grab Russell and of course with the yelling and the clatter of my chair which went flying behind me when I tried to jump out from behind my desk that caused him to Russell to spin back again toward me because I was making more noise than the security guard that gave the security guard enough time to get to the hand with the gun the right hand and it was at that point that he spun Russell's hand away from me and it was at that point that the gun discharged which is just a brief second before I got to him and how much distance did you travel in that time it sounds like you were behind the desk he's in front of the desk and you managed to go it was obviously a matter of seconds it seemed like a long time to me but it was only a matter of seconds and in fact it was it later we found that the trajectory of the shell came right at me as I was running to get to Russell to subdue him so I almost got shot with with the ricochet what happened what was the path of the bullet well when Roy swung swung his arm up it went into my sidewall in the federal building and came back toward the desk I understand that the FBI has since given you the expired round yes talked about you bringing it with you here today yeah is that the round that you have there now this is the round the bullet made a glancing blow in the wall and that's why it's lopsided it went in like this and then came back toward me where do you keep that now that bullet well I've still got the hole in the wall and I keep it in a little container underneath that different people come in and ask me about you know what happened you know they'll see the hole in the wall and you know they'll they can pick it up and as matter of fact it still fits into the same hole where that it left so I keep it right underneath the hole in the wall and and why exactly is that why do you keep the hole there and the bullet still there in the office well I was 17 and a half years of experience I'd become quite complacent in my handling of the people under my supervision and I just want to remember that he may not be the only person on my supervision list that has these same tendencies and I want to remember that I cannot become complacent again and so this this is my reminder what do you think of when you when you look at that bullet I think I'm very lucky to be here if Mr. Yolkallette hadn't come through the door in precisely the time that he did I'm convinced and everyone else was convinced he was going to kill me and it was just I was just very very fortunate it does sound like you're fortunate it also sounds like that you were able to do things to to buy time and that you when the moment came that you could afford to react physically when mr. Russell was distracted you immediately took full advantage of that moment have your thoughts on safety and probation officer safety changed as a result of this experience certainly after so many years of supervision you know you become very complacent and I think every officer who's gone through officers through training has felt like this will never happen to me I'm wasting my time I can diffuse a situation by discussion or whatever and there are situations that you cannot resolve by talking and you cannot you know you have to be aware all the time of who you're dealing with and where you are and you have to be safety conscious unfortunately I had been I had not been at that point and I think that all of us need to be that way this I would like to think that it won't happen again but you know there's there's no guarantee at any point it can't it can occur again had you had ever had an experience remotely like this one before where you were physically endangered no I'd had a number of threats over you know over that many years some very thinly veiled but never any acting out conduct which would lead me lead me to believe that they were going to try you know literally try to kill me and when you thought about I imagine from time to time you thought about possibilities that might occur to you course of your duties but this is an event that occurred not on a home visit not out on the street but actually in your office had you ever considered even that possibility before no and I think probably that's one of the reasons why all safeguards were down because you kind of feel like you know you're safe in your own office when you're making home visits to someone who has a bad reputation you know you're paying attention you know you've got your gun on you've got your cap stun with you you know you're you're looking at escape routes etc but when you're on in your own office and in your biggest concern is you know how many phone calls am I gonna have to return and how many monthly reports am I gonna have to check out and so forth you know you're really not thinking about your own safety what do you think was the most important thing you did in that situation with mr. Russell in terms of ensuring your own survival I think the most important thing was that I kept thinking I didn't attempt to do a macho thing and confront him I didn't rush him the whole time I was thinking of he's doing this and saying this I need to be doing what in response to him what what can I do to get out of this situation I really think that that was the main thing looking back on it seems that you were quite successful in achieving your goals in that in that situation and that what was certainly a traumatic experience at least did not have a tragic result when you think back on it is there anything you would have done differently is there anything now that we have or you have the luxury of hindsight is there anything you might have chosen to do differently not really it every all the other alternatives I think would have the results would have been disastrous I don't know if if it happened again I don't know if I would respond in the same manner I just that was the way I chose and it happened to work but I I just I don't know any other way that I could have handled it and so I I'm just tickled to death to be here I find it interesting that that faced with circumstances like that there is so extreme that in fact I think as you just said that you made choices that you chose to do it that way that you were able to keep on thinking and consider choices and and act upon is there anything that you do now in the office situation differently because of this incident are there safety measures that have been implemented or that you personally take that you didn't take before as a result of that incident in the office the federal building now has a magnetometer and it now has an x-ray machine we also have an additional court safety officer we also have a secretary in in the office where it started and there's also another probation officer so things have happened pretty rapidly since that time and I think you know a number of safeguards have been put into place so I I don't think what couldn't happen with the same-case scenario as the first so I feel much more secure in the office now than you know I did previously well we're certainly all thankful that you're here today to talk about this incident with us and just in closing do you have any advice or any other thoughts about this or about probation officer safety generally that you'd like to share with your fellow officers out there none other than don't be complacent don't think that the fact that you've been in the system 15 or 20 years that you're immune for any kind of aggressive behavior acting out conduct because you're not I wasn't I didn't think that that there was any problem I thought I could handle it because of what had happened over the years I think people need to be aware that the clients that we're supervising today are different than the clients we were supervising 10 or 20 years ago I think we've got more mental health clients I think we've got clients with more acting out conduct in their background and I think people should be more aware of their own personal safety