 This time on Skeptico That's Jim Carrey from the movie Liar Liar where a lawyer is cursed with having to tell the truth You're gonna hear more from Jim Carrey in just a minute You're also gonna hear how there's this direct connection between lying telling the truth truth-seeking and Liberty Liberty is eroding at an alarming rate. That's today's guest Mark Gober talking about his new book an end to upside down liberty And more generally talking about the situation we find ourselves in today Now I don't want to go too dramatic too conspiratorial because that turns off people but We do go a little Nazi on this one But sticking to the Nazi parallel cuz it's easy We're burning books now When you're banning people De-platforming people people who have PhDs have a long history of publishing in peer-reviewed medical journals and they're pulled from all the platforms everywhere we look there is an Ideology and if you don't agree with that ideology whether it's medically or politically or anything You're a conspiracy theorist. You're spreading dangerous misinformation, which are these are very anti-scientific ideas the the exploration of science or anything in the world is to explore and to explore many different theories and right now There's less and less of an inability to do that one of the things I looked at in this book is the impact of Mind control Propaganda brainwashing through multiple venues so mainstream media but also through social media and tech because if we think about the way in which We view the world and the way The reasons that we have opinions about the world are informed by what we personally experience Which is very limited and what we're told and that comes about through social media the news books we read and If what we can research outside of our own individual experience is being limited intentionally where certain ideas now We can't talk about that. That's going to be censored That's going to be shadow bands where you can't see it as easily then there is a capacity to alter consciousness on a mass scale I Know shadow banning censoring yada yada, but if you've been around this show for a while You know that the origins of the show are really with the frontier science people. I'm talking about people in Parapsychology in near-death experience science and after-death communication science reincarnation science I could go on and on all the people who have pushed back against this crazy You are a biological robot in a meaningless universe and you have no connection to anything more We fought that battle So why aren't we battle tested? Why aren't we the first ones? To stand up and sound the alarm about where this ship is headed and to a certain extent I guess the reason I get so hyped up about it is that if we can't Call it from what we've seen in the last 10 years in the frontier science consciousness community if we we were We were there We were the frontiersmen arrows in the front and arrows in the back We should be the people that said look Here's how it happened back then and here's how it's being Amped up 10 times in terms of the co-opting of science really the just complete assault on science Well, I hear you Alex. I think it's uh, there seems to be a divide I've noticed not only in the frontier science community, but also in the spiritual community and the way that I look at it at the highest level is that it's Perhaps an inability and an unwillingness to recognize evil and the the hiddenness of evil to say well I don't see how that could happen. I can't understand the mechanism for how someone could do that Therefore, no it must be that we'll take the benign explanation, which is that it's just that people can't shift their paradigms, which is part of it too A divide a divide between those who can see or at least Contemplate the hiddenness of evil and those who can't continuing with this clip There are probably scientists out there who just can't shift their paradigms They're not part of a psi op and they just are that's how they are But this seems to be Systematic the way in which there are there are six sigma statistical results And dean raiden talks about this in his book real magic Which was endorsed by two Nobel prize winning scientists in the categories of telepathy remote viewing precognition and psychokinesis That means the odds against chance are more than a billion to one meaning in any other area of science That's a real phenomenon and yet if you talk about psychokinesis if I talk about that to my professors from princeton They'd probably tell me i'm crazy How does that happen? There's something there's there's a suppression going on I would say that i'm probably more open to this because of my professional experience and maybe you have a similar experience alex I saw stuff I saw corruption firsthand in a way that is was very damaging to people's lives So I worked a lot with intellectual property. I was why was an investment banking in new york first? Which was more just traditional stuff not in tech But then I worked in the tech space Where we worked with inventors at large companies and small companies who were challenging paradigms So an invention a patented technology is one that is both novel and non obvious That's the legal definition relative to the prior art everything that's been done in the past Meaning that if you get a patent on something you're contradicting you're contradicting what the mainstream is doing And there's a lot of pushback often So you can imagine what might happen when you have some smaller inventors going up against big companies what could happen Where the big companies who have lots of power can manipulate the system So I saw it. I've seen the media manipulate things. I've seen the the judicial system get manipulated all up and down The power structures So i'm more i'm more open to it and then the whole covid thing happens And it's the same thing a person has a somewhat benign observation that contradicts the mainstream narrative They're booted off youtube. So there's it begins to be a pattern and One has to recognize that not everyone is moral I agree with mark on this one People who've been in a highly competitive money oriented field Quickly learn that not everyone can maintain the rural compass But secondly not everyone wears their moral compass like a wrist watch The snakes in suits thing is real But what if it's more than that? And at a spiritual level this could relate to dark forces. That's how I look at it Okay, so maybe science isn't in the best position to save us, but we can't be saved, right? I mean Maybe our political leaders will rise up and do the right thing The politics of it that's gone, right? There is no real Left-right red state democrat. That doesn't really fit the bill here, right? I agree with you completely and it's a super important point because there's a paradigm that people are in Of well, if you're not a democrat, then you're a republican and vice versa And if you believe this then you're part of this political movement and it's this very divisive mentality one of the things that I try to do in my book and end upside down liberty is to transcend that the left right division and get it more to the spectrum of liberty versus non-liberty Because really the left and the right have differing opinions on what the other Party should be doing which to me is counter to principles of liberty And then that mentality becomes warped into an us versus them And it I think can warp our ability to objectively look at science because you might hear an opinion from that Let's say if you're a democrat that oh the right-wingers are saying this is true scientifically I'm not a republican. I think republicans are evil and because I'm a good person. I can't agree with that science It's like this this weird warped logic that Removes objectivity from the situation and I think it allows for greater mind control So what should we do? Maybe the first thing we should do is Return to jim carry and take a good hard look at the reality of our situation You're supposed to say it's all going to be all right and you're supposed to say Whatever you dream can come true and you're supposed to say all those things I do believe in manifestation power of that kind of stuff But I don't believe that any of it matters everything is divine and I'm that I'm finding that ultimately the the freedom from it is Is something people are kind of hungry for it They're like I don't want to be me either and I go well look great because you never have been I so love what jim carry is saying right there, but I got to say it doesn't really hit me Where I live Back to a final clip from today's interview with the very excellent mark gober I want to go back to something you said earlier about like, you know Should we be changing people's minds or are they on their own path? And for me What I like to do is put information out and those who are interested might gravitate towards it I'm not going to change people and actually I don't know their karmic path or their spiritual path Maybe they're not supposed to change But I always remember talking to a guy and I won't mention his name But he got very serious and he goes Never get between a seeker and their guru I'm like, well, I'll take that one on myself. Yes. I'm going to get between a seeker and their guru So if your guru is Any of the people who are peddling this pandemic peddling just trust me give me all your rights and all your liberties and you'll be fine If that's your guru, I will try and disrupt not physically but intellectually I will try and disrupt that connection and I do feel like that's my job because I think the foremost value Is one love everyone but to tell the truth And that's what I think you're trying to do and that's what I'm trying to do too. We got to tell the truth No choice All right, let's get to some truth telling Here's my interview with mark gober. If you like it spread it around Welcome to skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers thinkers And their critics i'm your host alex caros and today we welcome back Mark gober to skeptico mark as you may remember is a very talented guy Investment banking background in silicon valley in new york. I mentioned that because I always find this Super interesting. I mean you will find mark to be intelligent No doubt the first book we had him on to talk about an end to upside down thinking very well written even when a prize for it But You'll hear throughout in this interview. I think and the reason I like it is mark has His foot firmly planted in this World, you know making money being successful being successful in school doing all those things and then As you'll hear he's kind of drifted off into this other world this Skeptico related world of consciousness and upside down thinking and his latest book an end to upside down Liberty so anyways, I just remind you. That's what I think is so fun Talking to mark in particular, but people like mark who are accomplished in a lot of different areas So I don't know. I just kind of spun that out there, but mark welcome back. Thanks for joining me Thank you for having me alex. I'm looking forward to this So as I mentioned, you're at the book a couple years ago all about consciousness and end to upside down thinking kind of pointing out this ridiculousness of Consciousnesses and epiphenomenon of the brain kind of stuff that is so entrenched In science and is maybe a little bit less entrenched But we're reminded that it still is entrenched and now you've followed it up with A book an end to upside down liberty. Tell us about the book. Tell us what it's about So an end upside down liberty looks at the nature of government and the way in which society is organized generally And what prompted the investigation in that area was really the whole covet thing Starting in 2020 we we saw that governments played a very important role in our lives They told us which businesses were essential and which ones weren't when we needed to be locked down and when we're not locked down, etc So I started to look at into well, what is governments? How does the media play into that and ultimately what the book looks at is In the idea that the way we do government around the world is inherently threatening to liberty Which is problematic not only from a just a traditional physicalist lens, but also from a spiritual lens. It's problematic. So that's it in a nutshell So you're making some leaps there that uh, we ought to explore because i'm right there with you But I have problems explaining this to people number one and number two Even kind of believing it myself in a couple of different ways So let's start with the point you made about the connection between spirituality And what you're calling liberty. Well, so this is a A big leap for many people because one has to believe in something other than Scientific materialism or what some would call physicalism in order to even go there Which is this idea that consciousness doesn't come from the brain And that's my first book and my podcast and my second book We're really about and that the idea that Our identity is not our body, but rather our consciousness is our identity and the body is a vessel or the vehicle Through which consciousness has an experience So a lot of what I've done is looked at the science to suggest that that is true So things like near-death experiences side phenomena lots of stuff you've covered on your show Then there are some inferences that we could make if we look at things like the near-death experience Um, dr. Bruce Grayson in his new book after which talks about near-death experiences and what he's seen He's from the university of virginia. He says about 25 percent He says a quarter of of near-death experiences include a life review And dr. Jeffrey long has said in the range of 20 of people have near-death experiences in his database Have a life review and what's the life review? This is an instance where a person relives his or her whole life in a flash Sometimes reliving the experiences through the eyes of other people And feeling the effects of his or her actions On that person So if for example for my podcast I interviewed danian brinkley who has had four near-death experiences and each time He had a life review. He had to relive the deaths of the people that he killed when he was fighting in vietnam Through their eyes So he claims and he also felt the pain of the child who would no longer have a father because he had killed the father However, in his later life reviews after he had become a hospice volunteer since the near-death experience changed him so much He got to experience what it was like to be the dying person In the hospice and getting to see how he himself comforted that person So that's just an example. We we see many other cases of this So if we combine that life review, we say that's a real phenomenon not just a hallucination this idea that there are consequences to our Actions in life and we hold ourselves accountable. That's actually one of the big things in the life review Is that it's not like there's a third party judging, which is what many religions have kind of turned it into it's actually yourself Which aligns with his idea of a unified consciousness that you've talked about so much on the show But this idea of Consequences to our actions and a moral imperative as you often say That's real If we combine that with things like the research at the university of virginia Over 2,500 cases of young children who have memories of a previous life Sometimes these are kids between the ages of two and five years old often Sometimes the the researchers are able to verify what the child said by finding something from this alleged past life Finding a person's actual historical records Or sometimes even medical records if the child has birthmarks or physical deformities that align with this alleged previous life So all that's to say there's evidence for reincarnation So if there's reincarnation and this idea of a life review, which is suggestive of potentially a learning process inherent in life that there's an evolutionary process Involved in consciousness itself That might one might infer that the purpose of life or part of the purpose of life to the extent we can comprehend it Is to evolve at the level of our consciousness to move toward a state ultimately of unconditional love That's what many people come back saying, but there might be other more nuanced things that we're trying to learn in any given life So that is a long-winded way of saying that if we are to evolve as I see it We need to have liberty. We need to have the freedom to be able to make our own choices As much as possible and ultimately the way I look at it is making our own choices as long as they are not harming someone else If we look at government government restricts that liberty inherently. So I will just pause there Alex and and let you respond Well, I don't really have a response other than to say I didn't think it was long-winded at all It's just right down main street in terms of my Logical progression I'm totally in line with you and I think that that It's the path that the data leads us towards and that's what you're saying too Speak to the leap though the chasm that you're jumping and I want to jump there with you I just want to kind of in skeptical fashion pull back Is the individual versus the collective Versus the collective because a lot of the great wisdom traditions throughout time Have come to all these same things and then have come back to the same point of saying Yeah, but since it really is just about you and your journey and your soul Ascension education evolution was the word you used then maybe it doesn't matter so much what All those evildoers are doing which is what I wrestle with too, but I know you get what I mean How do you handle that question? I've been wrestling that that issue myself. I mean that's a it's a tough question to I think to comprehend with our limited human minds There might be things that are beyond our comprehension that we just are never going to fully grasp But the way I like to think about it is exploring the notion of paradox This idea that two things can be true at the same time even though they're contradictory Rick archer on buddha at the gas pump always talks about this the Understanding paradox is one of the most important things in in spiritual evolution Many of the great teachers say that and to me the ultimate paradox In in reality as I see it is This idea that we are one interconnected consciousness and yet at the same time we're individuals So as dr. Bernardo kastrup says it's like we're whirlpools within a stream of consciousness We are both the whirlpool and the stream simultaneously. How could that be true? How could there be a market in alex and at the same time there's no differentiation? And I think that's the paradox that we're forced to hold at the highest level that there is no individual But there is there's only a collective, but there's not That to me relates to this dualistic notion of good and evil because at some level there's only unconditional love one consciousness That's what everyone talks about in the mystical experience It's the same thing or very similar ideas of a unified field And yet there are things happening that are clearly Contrary to unconditional love atrocities that that many of us see all over the world How could that be true at the same time? So to me there is there is no evil and at the same time there is and I'm reminded of A little video I saw of dr. David Hawkins a spiritual teacher who was also a psychiatrist So he was interesting to me because he deconstructed the ego at a practical level But he talked about Ramana Maharshi the great Indian sage who used to say things like the world that we see doesn't exist And hawkins said he's right at the highest level of reality. That's true But at the same time there are many people who aren't living at that level of reality and they're enduring great suffering So what hawkins said is that it's a spiritual error to ignore the suffering At the level of this relative where there's where there are individuals So to me, that's how I reconcile it is that there is no evil, but there is and we have a spiritual duty to do something about it Yeah, so I don't know if people are following us But now we're getting into it because that's a very western approach to kind of take The the deep deep teachings of it and then say yeah, but none of that matters because i'm a doer I'm a western guy. I want to make it happen kind of thing I'm not i'm a western kind of person But i'm also An american yogi too. Have you ever seen the movie flip side by Richard martini Interesting guy. He uh got very interested in the past life aggression and between lives regression of a newton And he actually went to a weekend retreat where he and other people were going through a past life in between life Regression with the newton institute kind of people But the anecdote that he tells that it always sticks in my head is this woman is regressed To a past life and she remembers a life when she was in the holocaust in the in a concentration camp And she remembers being led to Her death She realizes that the showers aren't showers She knows That she is going to die and all these people are going to die and immediately the thought rises in her What should i do should i attack the guards maybe i should at least take somebody with me You know all the thoughts that i think so many people to hear about these holocaust stories They all go why didn't they do this? Why didn't you know it's like one that's impossible You know people realize how impossible it is but the other aspect of it is her She comes to the sense that I will stay with my people This life may end. This life will end. I will walk into the gas chamber. I will be killed and this life will end Further in her regression she remembers dying and remembers the feeling of empathy for the perpetrators for the guards and feeling at that deep soul level that we're talking about That her suffering was over and their suffering had just begun and their suffering to a certain extent would Would be much much harder to unravel than her suffering of just ending this life I'm not suggesting that we let them roll us up and just destroy us with the pandemic That's not my thing I'm just kind of calling into question How looking at this from a spiritual perspective might cause us to really Put first what you're saying, which is what does it mean to love everybody? What does it mean to love? Anthony Fauci and bill gates and whoever else you want to hate on or or in pizza gate james elefantis and john Podesta, what does it mean to truly not agree with or support what those people are doing? but to realize that you know It is on some level Not in our hands to administer the justice that's will come to them. Any thoughts on any of that? Yeah, so actually in my second book it ends upside down living I talk about 10 approaches for living from the spiritual perspective and there is a section on forgiveness and I reference an interview that rick archer did on buddha at the gas pump a woman who was being murdered And there was a mystical experience that happened while she was being murdered where the attempted murderer effectively had an awakening and saw what he was doing and realized and ended up letting her go but in that process She felt she was able to experience His pain and was able to have forgiveness for him even though he was murdering her So I think that aligns with what you're saying and I agree with you that there's a balance though that I try to hold I struggle with which is accepting that reality of having empathy for all even those who are Acting in ways that are contrary to unconditional love and at the same time maintaining boundaries and saying that this is not aligned with how I look at life and therefore There have to be boundaries. So it's not It's less of a victim mentality. I think I like that. How would that look like? From the spiritual perspective and still holding our ground and saying No, this isn't right. We will not stand for this. What does that look like to you mark? I think it depends on the situation And it depends on the nature of of what the perpetrators are doing So I'm going to leave that general in the general case because it I think it depends in some cases it might be For example, if there are medical interventions that you don't agree with Is to say no or if there are policies that come down from government that one finds immoral to say I'm not going to do that And I mean the extreme version is Nazi Germany where the law was to do things that were horrible to jews and minorities The law was something that many people found immoral and some people said no and some people say yes Right. So The slippery slope thing though, right? I mean there's been a lot of Analogies to every day we hear the the parallels with Nazi Germany Nazi Germany. It's To a certain extent it's the thing we always hear it's like Way way too much play for uh, Nazi Germany there They deserve every bit they get but we can spread the hate around too because there's a lot of people throughout history That have done the same thing and have done it in modern history as well, but sticking to the Nazi parallel because it's easy We're burning books now. I mean the new ceo of twitter who just you know just came out and said I'm not obligated by the first amendment. That's not I don't have to do any of that and you're a silicon valley guy. I know This stuff I just interviewed a guy from Google AI guy and he says hey man We got a trillion searches a day or some kind of crazy never like that He goes we got a scale problem You know as a tech guy or close to tech guy ip guy you understand all the complexities that they are dealing with At the same time they are at the they are at the heart of this evil in a way that We can't quite pull apart. I mean It seems to suggest that they're part of this system that could potentially be All that Nazism that we're also worried about and let me make sure I put a point on that so people don't think I'm just kind of rambling around We're burning books right now today essentially, right when you're banning people De-platforming people people who have uh phd's have a long history of publishing and peer-reviewed medical journals and they're pulled from All the platforms being youtube twitter facebook, which For as long as we've been a country would be considered protected under the Category of freedom of the press, you know, it's just a different technology, but we would have always always considered that We're in different territory and that territory looks a lot like what we're talking about here so I don't know, you know, how far are we down that that road? Well, first I want to comment on what you said about nazi germany I agree that it's one of many examples and there are contemporary examples We can point to that aren't just discussed as much But I like to mention it because it's an extreme that many people acknowledge as real But we shouldn't forget the others Where are we on the spectrum of you know on liberty? Liberty is eroding at an alarming rate I mean to the I felt there was urgency to write this book and it's Not a comfortable topic to be talking about and it's I'm sure many people will have differing opinions on what I've written But I felt like it was necessary anyway because of exactly what you're saying alex that Everywhere we look there is An ideology and if you don't agree with that ideology whether it's medically or politically or anything You're a conspiracy theorist. You're spreading dangerous misinformation, which are these are very anti-scientific ideas the The exploration of science or anything in the world is to explore and to explore many different theories and right now There's less and less of an inability to do that one of the things I looked at in this book is the impact of mind control Propaganda brainwashing through multiple venues so mainstream media but also through social media and tech because if we think about the way in which we view the world and the way The reasons that we have opinions about the world are informed by What we personally experience which is very limited and what we're told and that comes about through social media the news books we read And if what we can research outside of our own individual experience is being limited intentionally where certain ideas now We can't talk about that that's going to be censored That's going to be shadow banned or you can't see it as easily then there is a capacity to alter consciousness on a mass scale A capacity to literally mind control and brainwash people but from the the skeptical lens it's a love it's consciousness manipulation you are shifting people's consciousness in a certain direction and If all reality is just consciousness what happens when many people put their consciousness in a certain direction This gets into phenomena like psychokinesis the idea that mind can impact matter at a physical level And that's how I look at it is That's my one of my biggest concerns is that you could take good people Move their consciousness in a certain direction and it can shape our world in a way that is not favorable I want to pick up on a couple of topics. You just mentioned Mind control and the assault on science would be Two of the ones that I think are are critical to kind of flesh out here But I got to start with the first one in that I'm really concerned about the way that This community the frontier science. I'll call it community You're a board member of ions. I should mention and you're kind of plugged in and you mentioned like bruce grayson boy I just interviewed bruce grayson and one hand fantastic Who can't love the tremendous tremendous contribution that bruce grayson has made and those people at uva have made But at the same time wake the fuck up. I mean I kind of really pushed him on The conspiracy surrounding near-death experience and you know, you can go and everyone can sit around in a clap hands and oh Wow, you guys have done so much screw that you haven't done anything You haven't made any real dent. You haven't moved it But what really pissed me off is to even suggest to bruce That there is some conspiratorial nature to the Um side lining of near-death experience to the to the quote-unquote skepticism about near-death experience to me that has been made patently obvious Over the last 10 years But the real trump card on it is it's now made even more obvious by what they did with covet But if you can't call it if you're on frontier science and you can't call it and you know after I After I interviewed grace and I interviewed ebb and alexander And he was at least willing to come a lot closer to acknowledging it because he fucking lived it, right? He lived sam harris coming out of left field saying this guy is completely lacks any credibility while he's a Neuroscientist a neurosurgeon at harvard medical school and sam harris is a kind of a nobody intellectually to be throwing stones It's not accidental. It is systematic. It is part of this mind control Project that's been going on part of the disinformation project That's been going on forever and to a certain extent. I guess the reason I get so hyped up about it is that if we can't Call it from what we've seen in the last 10 years in the frontier science consciousness community if we we were We were there We were the frontiersmen arrows in the front and arrows in the back We should be the people that said look Here's how it happened back then and here's how it's being Amped up 10 times in terms of the co-opting of science really the just complete assault on science So I kind of covered a lot there in the rant But I do want to kind of call out the frontier science people for not getting on board with the With the conspiracies of jesus christ yet. I'll just leave it. I'll leave it at that getting to work Well, I hear you alex. I think it's uh, there seems to be a divide I've noticed not only in the frontier science community, but also in the spiritual community and the way that I look at it at the highest levels that it's Perhaps an inability and an unwillingness to recognize evil and the the hiddenness of evil to say well I don't see how that could happen I can't understand the mechanism for how someone could do that Therefore no it must be that will take the benign explanation, which is that it's just that people can't shift their paradigms Which is part of it too They're there are probably scientists out there who just can't shift their paradigms They're not part of a psi op and they just are that's how they are But this seems to be Systematic the way in which there are there are six sigma statistical results And dean raiden talks about this in his book real magic Which was endorsed by two Nobel prize-winning scientists in the categories of telepathy remote viewing precognition and psychokinesis That means the odds against chance are more than a billion to one Meaning in any other area of science That's a real phenomenon and yet if you talk about psychokinesis if I talk about that to my professors from princeton They'd probably tell me i'm crazy How does that happen? There's something there's there's a suppression going on I would say that i'm probably more open to this because of my professional experience And maybe you have a similar experience alex. I saw stuff I saw corruption firsthand in a way that is was very damaging to people's lives So I worked a lot with intellectual property as why was an investment banking in new york first which was more just traditional stuff Not in tech But then I worked in the tech space Where we worked with inventors at large companies and small companies who were challenging paradigms So an invention a patented technology is one that is both novel and non obvious That's the legal definition relative to the prior art everything that's been done in the past Meaning that if you get a patent on something you're contradicting you're contradicting what the mainstream is doing And there's a lot of pushback often so you can imagine what might happen when you have some smaller inventors going up against big companies What could happen Where the big companies who have lots of power can manipulate the system? So I saw it. I've seen the media manipulate things. I've seen the the judicial system get manipulated all up and down um The power structures So i'm more i'm more open to it and then I saw the same thing when I started researching consciousness I'm like what's going on here. It's the same thing They're they're calling these people pseudoscientists and there's tons of evidence to suggest that they're actual scientists doing Probably more rigorous science because there there's so much scrutiny And then the whole covet thing happens and it's the same thing A person has a somewhat benign observation that contradicts the mainstream narrative. They're booted off youtube so there's it begins to be a pattern and One has to recognize that not everyone is moral. I think most people are good. That's been my observation But some people are at the extreme end psychopathic, which is a psychological phenomenon in which a person doesn't understand empathy And just wants power and at a spiritual level this could relate to dark forces That's how I look at it But at a more mainstream level that everyone could acknowledge psychopathy is a real thing and most of us can't relate to it So one almost has to go into the mind of evil to try to understand it And a lot of people I think don't want to do that or they're not they've never done it before And they're happy living their lives as is and I want to just close with one anecdote before I let you respond A friend of mine well educated Said to me when we were when I was first getting into consciousness research and I was sending a bunch of my friends You know the research I was doing and how it changed my life. Oh my goodness Like there's there's more to life than what I thought there's actual meaning And he was like mark my life's pretty good And I don't want to rock the boat So I'm not going to go down this road with you. I actually think you might be right But like I'm not going to go there I think a lot of people are in that boat Especially when it relates to evil because the other topics with consciousness They're very comforting and some people will say yeah, it's comforting But it's just too much for me this stuff is could be terrifying For some people and they might say I don't want to do it I think what you've said is just super profound and it directly parallels kind of the path that I've been on And if we were going to retrace those steps a little bit So we look at again our frontier science and I'm going to hold bruce gracing up as the punching bag again And he's done all this fantastic work in bringing forth near-death experience But when you push him and you say bruce, this has really been about consciousness all along and about Science being built on this notion that you're a biological robot and meaningless universe And that has a purpose behind it and the purpose is people are easier to control If they believe that their life has no meaning and even if there's all this cultural push In the background in terms of religion in terms of wisdom traditions and just in terms of human nature to say Well, I know my life isn't meaningless that doesn't matter to the mind control culture shapers You still play that game. You still push that button Just like we see the fear button being pushed now and you don't stop pushing it You just keep pushing it pushing it pushing it. So that's what was going on. That's what I suspect And I think you're alluding to is going on with the You know near-death experience. Well, we're not sure, you know, this because it's a direct assault on this idea Not just about the epiphenomen of the brain, which immediately goes I don't care about epiphenomen of the brain I don't even know what it means. What it really means Is that they're trying to tell you that you are meaningless That you your soul doesn't really have a play in this larger game of your life And then I would tie that back to what you said about How science plays that out and how science wants to play the game and they say Dean Raiden God bless Dean Raiden Six sigma result one after another, you know Observer effect, you know, we'll just put a all that kind of stuff as quantum dug told me on the show, you know A lot of people have gotten mobile prizes for less But i'm digressing slightly because what I wanted to bring up also is part of this and I think it has to all be Layed out so that we can understand how the game is being played because some of it is Go along to get along in science and this is the path of least resistance and we get it And do I really want to sit down at that dinner? I'm going to with all my friends In the psychiatry department at university virginia And do I really want to feel that uncomfortable that they're all looking at me because I Really came out and said what I really believed and I didn't couch it and all this careful maybe kind of Crazy middle ground kind of stuff. Do I really want to endure that? You know, and do I really want to endure then going socially going to the Club or going to the whatever and and having the same thing happen But the other thing that I think is at play is the Stockholm syndrome Which is that, you know, these people have now been in academia They've been subjected to this for so long that they're kind of happy captives within, you know, they've kind of Been blinded to what their science has really told them and again the reason I keep bringing it up is because if frontier science Can't be the tip of the spear on this We're in trouble I want to give a quick shout out to dean before I respond to that which was which was important alex Dean has a new study out which is to me totally mind blowing which shows that the mind Impacts the level of quantum entanglement and your listeners might not be aware because it just came out So I just want to say that's a new study. Of course, it will need to be replicated But this is game changing stuff. It would impact quantum computing and and beyond but with regard to academia and the scientific community and what what should the frontier scientists be doing As you were talking alex, you reminded me of what I was asked once on a panel Of how do we get this message out there and one of the scientists who was on the panel with me said Well, we need it We need to change the education system and get the message out there which I agree with and I was at my answer was It's going to have to come through the media because there's plenty of science And the message just hasn't been amplified properly and the more I look at the media the more I realize That's going to be a challenge. So I do think it is important that within academia There's more vocalization of the stuff which it requires bravery and it requires taking risk People could lose their jobs. They might not get tenure. This is what I hear all the time So it's when you have to feed your family You have to make trade-offs and make make tough decisions. So I mean, I'm not in that position So it's hard for me to say but I I think it needs to come from all angles to to get the message out there And I'm just going to add real quickly Being at Princeton, I was so indoctrinated with materialism. I didn't know it at the time I didn't know it until I deconstructed things afterwards. It's deeply embedded into Everything within the highest levels of academia. It's it's almost implied I mean, I was technically a psychology major even though I started in economics and did behavioral economics I don't remember talking about the hard problem of consciousness Or acknowledging that we don't understand consciousness and maybe it doesn't come from the brain It was sort of this presumption Throughout everything in the psychology department and otherwise So there's this this cultural rigidity which Is going to have to shift and I don't fully know the answer to it Yeah, I I agree and so let's talk about The book and it's very kind of Out front. I can't imagine how this is playing with some of your friends And you do sit on these panels and you do talk to a lot of these people and They care what you think, but you also care what they think How is this very conspiratorial Book and I say it's conspiratorial because it's about conspiracy theories Throughout the book is about conspiracy theories. The only problem is that they're all true, you know, so We can call them that because that's the the common term, but How is this playing for you personally? It's not making you friends. I can't imagine Well, we're still early the book was released released very recently and I haven't heard from all that many people I've gotten a bunch of really positive responses and it might be that some of the more negative responses I just haven't heard from yet and as the book gets out more I'll hear from more and more people But I can just say from having had conversations with people in my network who are much more mainstream What I'm talking about is it's so out there. It is so contrary to the way they look at the world There are things that they've even considered as possibly true. So I would imagine there will be pushback There was pushback with my first book talking about consciousness not coming from the brain My second book talking about living a spiritual life given those assumptions And now this book saying we have to rethink government and acknowledge the reality of evil and conspiracy in light of all that But from a spiritual lens personally, I have to think well What's what's my duty? Why do I exist? This is my second book and end upside down living is a lot about this and part of the reason I wrote it I wanted to share with people Approaches that have been talked about throughout time many great spiritual teachers But also to hold myself accountable if I'm really going to be on the spiritual path Then I have to live life that way So when I look at I mean everything is a balance of risk and reward and I have to consider reputational Damage potentially On from one perspective and from another perspective people might really respect it But I have to consider all all sides of it to me the net benefit is Far outweighs the downsides because we're I think in an extremely precarious situation globally Where liberty is being eroded at an alarming rate. It's disturbing to think about what could happen and I'm in a unique situation where I left my firm actually right before the pandemic I just didn't feel called to do it anymore I didn't know what I was going to do next and two books have come out But I've been in the situation where I'm able to research and spend a lot of time focusing on this stuff meditating really thinking about it And there's a duty I think to share that with people for those who are open because we don't know what the positive impacts could be if Even a small number of people shift their consciousness in a certain Direction So I often reference the butterfly effect, which is a real mathematical phenomenon Where a meteorologist changed one of his assumptions by a decimal point And his outcome ended up being vastly different. His weather prediction was different So the analogy that people often use is a butterfly flapping its wings mathematically speaking Flapping its wings in china mathematically speaking Could create a hurricane in new york So To me it's it's worth it from that perspective Well, I also think kind of from a silver lining perspective I've talked to a lot of people just individually That have made changes in their life as a result of the pandemic That are Resets resets in a positive way. I know like for me in a small way, you know I'm big into yoga and I used to go to I'm now I'm outside Doing yoga and I made a little sign, you know, well come join me and do yoga with me right here, you know in beautiful Cardiff and Solana Beach and Del Mar where I live out on the beach and it's like I would never go back. I would never go back to being inside of the studio And I'm trying to spend more and more time outside. I've talked to a bunch of people who Said gee, you know, this really forced my hand in terms of homeschooling And I homeschooled and now I love it and I would never consider going back. So I I love your Reminding us about the butterfly effect. And I also think There are some unintended consequences very positive unintended consequences that have come from people being Forced to reset and then having enough of a spiritual core like you're talking about to say, okay How will I reset? towards my spiritual goals and at the same time in alignment with pushing back with what I see as Some bad things that are happening to our culture. What do you think about the silver lining thing? So I referencing my second book again and end upside down living another approach in addition to forgiveness I talked about for life is non-judgementalism Which is the idea that we we can't know at a cosmic level why things are happening. It's just way too complicated We don't have the helicopter's perspective. It's almost like we are Walking through a maze and all we see is what's immediately in front of us and we can't see what's way ahead of us But if you had this perspective of the one mind the broader consciousness that's beyond space and time There's more to the story So therefore we can't really judge things as quote-unquote good and bad because there are these potentially unintended consequences Someone has a tragedy in his or her life But it can lead to amazing things later in life that were not foreseeable at the time of the tragedy And from the lens of spiritual awakening people often talk about a dark night of the soul Where they have a horrible event and for me I had one so in 2016 when I first got into this stuff I was listening to podcasts. I heard about you know spirits and just paranormal phenomena that I wouldn't have thought about before prior to that I was I thought life was meaningless some things weren't going well professionally like some deals weren't going the way I wanted My personal life things weren't going the way that I wanted and you know, I'm such an accomplished accomplishment focused person You know, it was a tough time for me Then I happened to stumble across these podcasts my life shifted in a new direction But I was probably more receptive at the time because I was in that dark night of the soul period And now it's led to a very different life which has been much more fulfilling over the last few years So if you apply that to the collective level, I see what's happening right now as a dark night of the soul Whether we will come out of it is is an open question But I agree with you Alex There are unintended positive consequences and on the the really positive side if we do come out of this and I think if some of these Corrupt systems are collapse or and or we're able to build new systems in parallel We could have a world that is potentially so positive that we can't even imagine it and that's what I try to hold in my mind Let's talk a little bit about the assault on science that has been This pandemic because That's one of the angles I've been trying to cover because I don't normally like to get into those kind of topics or even current event topics I try although I really break the rule all the time but kind of stay in my lane of science and spirituality But again as I've kind of maybe emphasized maybe too much in this show I see a direct through line between the attack on science that was parapsychology, which You know both was It's hard to say who won there. I think in some respects like you're saying Dean Raiden definitely won But in the larger sense, maybe he didn't win because when they can sideline the whole thing and just Ignore it then, you know, did you really win? But I'm digressing again because what I really want to talk about is We're at a whole new level with the assault on science I just dipped into a little bit of the mask science the COVID mask thing and the reason I like to say what the mask is It's So much less controversial than talking about the virus and talking about the vaccine and all that Just the mask. It's just phony science It just I look back at the interviews that I had, you know with Sheldrick and Raiden and Richard Wiseman and the controversies. It's not even close to that in terms of being It's so fake. It's like anyone should be able to see that it's fake and Our guard has been let down or maybe our Fight has been let down But there's just no meaningful pushback on just the most atrocious science that has come with this pandemic and the associated Decisions that are being made off of it and it's something you cover in the book But maybe you want to talk about here at kind of that high level of assault on science kind of thing Yeah, well, we see it with consciousness science. I saw professionally with some New ideas that were out there that were threatening to big companies We're seeing the same thing now if there's science that comes out that is threatening to the narrative Which threatens those who are in charge of the narrative. Whoever those people may be It's being shut out So I've been trying to reconcile this too and how do we deal with it? And how do we how do we even communicate with those who believe the narrative so strongly? I've been in this position like I said where I've had the time to investigate And to look at what the mainstream's saying look at their claims and then to actually look at some of these other studies And what the alternative people are saying and to evaluate both I can understand for those who don't have the time to do that If you're just super busy with work and your family and you just see what's on tv And you see the headline from cnn Who you've trusted your whole life and the new york times and you just go with it Who you think they're really going to lie to the world about something so big It takes a lot to overcome that mentality So it takes independent investigation It takes a willingness to to acknowledge the possibility of conspiracy and evil and a lot of people don't want to do that But The suppression is unbelievable It's unbelievable in in so many different areas of the pandemic It which continues for me to reinforce the idea that there is something going on it's it's not innocent because The suppression seems to go in one direction It goes in the direction of Fear you should be more scared of this And it goes in the direction of We should take away your liberties as a result of that that seems to be the direction of the manipulation of science typically I want to pick up on one thing you just said and that is Acknowledging the possibility And it does relate back to the consciousness thing too. It relates back to the little anecdote you told about your buddy who said You know Nah, thanks mark find the way I am You know by the way, do you want to come over and watch the ball game this weekend? Please let's watch the ball game. I don't want to think about anything else. And I think Back from to the total spiritual kind of perspective We know that the the spiritual masters and the yogis have told us all along that that that doesn't change for people very easily And it only changes when they're ready and you can't shake somebody by the Shoulders and say wake up and see the science wake up and see what they're doing to you any more than you can say Wake up to your divine Spiritual wholeness, you know wake up to the it's one in the same and kind of very interesting Way that if you've given any thought to those parallels of the spiritual awakening and the how many people do not if we could Not how many people I can be I'm there, right? I did not want to wake up Spiritually I was scared as crap of waking up spiritually because the associations I had with that in my life My religious background of greek orthodox and it was scary as crap and it wasn't positive, but it was like I didn't want to touch that That lightning rod or that electric wire or whatever But there is a parallel now. I think between that kind of Reluctance to go through a spiritual transformation And this that we see with people who we talk to and the normies and the people driving around alone in their car with a Mask on and you want to just go say wake up and it's like There's something much much deeper that they don't want to wake up to what are your thoughts on that? Well going back to the anecdote of my buddy We had the conversation Maybe four years or so ago five years ago when I first was getting into consciousness and that was his reaction I don't want to go there mark. I don't want to rock the boat This summer when I was talking to him about this new book same reaction different topic So it's like they're they're somewhat independent paradigm shifts Even though they're interrelated because I think there's a consciousness element to all this conspiracy Which you've covered very well on your show, but they're somewhat independent and they can be siloed It's it's similar and as a result We are seeing divides in the spiritual community of those who are spiritual, but will reject the notion of A conspiracy and think it's dangerous and actually will think that liberty is dangerous somehow Rick Archer has told me that directly told me that directly that You know talking about any of this stuff is dangerous and conspiracy theories are dangerous And he'll contradict himself and then he'll but he'll come back So I mean I've just got to call rick out on that because it's over and over We we've called each other out on it publicly and I've had him on the show and I've talked about a lot So it's not like new information, but there was a classic case of someone who's a very Very very public figure very important figure in the alternative spiritual community I'll tell you another one is Jeffrey Mishlove. Did you see the thing that he recently came out with? I mean, it's like What is he talking about has he completely lost his sense because the other way that we should tie this back to Because we talked about that other thing Is the the people who see this as some kind of political play In this kind of left right red state blue state, I mean Has it what we hasn't what we've gone through Thoroughly thoroughly convinced you that that is completely ridiculous and is just not really where the game is being played and yet You know people like Jeffrey Mishlove are completely attached to that in a way that Makes it impossible to break through and have these next level conversations Yeah, well, I haven't personally talked to rick about these issues. I'm sure at some point We'll have an interesting conversation. I love his show booty at the gas pump I think it's one of the most important shows in terms of the spiritual awakening journey and is really helping But this this divide that we're seeing it's I've been trying to politics Let me pull you in so so that you're not asked to bash people that I'm bashing I don't understand that people people who insist upon seeing this Through the traditional political spectrum Any more than I understand people in frontier science who insist on seeing this through all is right and well with science We just need better peer review and they don't see the conspiracy behind it So the the politics of it that's gone, right? There is no real left right red state democrat That doesn't really Fit the bill here, right? I agree with you completely and it's a super important point because there's a paradigm that people are in Of well, if you're not a democrat, then you're a republican and vice versa And if you believe this then you're part of this political movement And it's this very divisive mentality one of the things that I try to do in my book and end upside down liberty is to Transcend that the left right division and get it more to the the spectrum of liberty versus non-liberty Because really the left and the right have differing opinions on what the other Party should be doing which to me is counter to principles of liberty And then that mentality becomes warped into an us versus them And it I think can warp our ability to objectively look at science because you might hear an opinion from that Let's say if you're a democrat that oh the right wingers are saying this is true scientifically I'm not a republican. I think republicans are evil some of them and therefore and because I'm a good person I can't agree with that science. It's like this this weird warped logic that Removes objectivity from the situation and I think it allows for greater mind control I agree one last topic and it's a topic I always bring up because It just has to be front and center in this discussion And it's it's difficult because it totally throws people for a loop, but that's et At ufo and we're right in the middle of it. We are at an Unprecedented point in history where this has been Acknowledged and they've released the videos in the most phony political psi-up kind of way But there's no getting away from the evidence and there's no getting away from the fact that Despite what we all thought 10 years ago and Richard Dolan wrote in his book after disclosure that they'll never disclose because then we'll never stop asking the Questions, why did you lie? Why did you threaten these families? Why did you kill these people? Well, they did disclose and none of that happened and in some ways it's a very discouraging event as it relates to like the pandemic and the destruction of liberty and stuff like that because I think that is another example of Something that's happened in the past that has parallels that's happen to what's happening here You don't think they can hide the truth Hell, yes, they can hide the truth quite well and they can lie about it for Periods of time and they can turn people in circles and they can co-opt Whatever group you form and they can misinform and then they can come in and dribble in some good information Mix it into the pot So that's all talking about the method of et UFO disclosure then there's just the implications of the reality of it What does that mean in terms of us and where we sit in this world? What could that possibly mean in terms of if there is an underlying motivation behind this? If there is some direction behind all this craziness that's going on could it be connected to This other intelligence or other intelligences, which seems to be the case Late a ton on the table. So just pick what you want to talk about Well, I'm really interested in that topic too and in my book I mentioned the potential for Metaphysical good and evil and what that means for everything. So in this book I talk about, you know, I give some controversial views about politics about the the way in which government threatens liberty inherently and propose a new way of Doing governing that's much more voluntary, which on its own is going to give people issues. I'm sure And then I throw on the spiritual part too And say that we have to consider these other aspects that you mentioned, Alex That there's a metaphysical aspect to reality and how is that playing into politics? And how does it play into the meaning of life? And why does why does politics even matter? How does that fit into Metaphysics a lot of political discussions don't go there But staying on your point about et and this idea of other intelligences more broadly whether they're Multidimensional beings actual physical beings from other dimensions and planets. I don't know We have to consider it We It goes back to this idea of mind control and how much information is being suppressed and you've covered a lot of this on your show that the et phenomenon There's probably so much that we don't know and then certain things that we think are real that might be disinformation And then on a related note How can these forces be tapped into for both good and evil and to what extent is that being done? To enact good and evil on the planet and then you start getting into stuff that you've been looking at too And I I don't feel like I have a grasp on this, but I'm interested is looking at ancient texts You know the gnostic texts and some of the ancient mythologies. What's What's misinformation from that? What is just pure mythology and what might where might there be hints of truth? So in my book, I actually quote the naghamadi texts which were discovered in 1945 Farmers were looking for manure and found these These tablets there that seem to have been removed from the new testament potentially So that makes me interested those who speculate that it's removed from the traditional religious texts I get curious why why might that have been removed? Is there something of interest there and there's one of the texts within the naghamadi scriptures is called the rulers And there's a quote. I'm paraphrasing it here They talk about when humanity left the Garden of Eden they said The text says The rulers left humanity in a great state of confusion and to a life of toil So that they would be preoccupied with the things of the world and wouldn't have time to focus on the Holy Spirit That to me sounds a lot like this world Yeah, I I'm with you. I think it's super important I don't know how to begin to kind of deconstruct it. So you've obviously listened to a couple of my things there the one the one place I start is What we do know in terms of what wouldn't have passed along the naghamadi library The Dead Sea Scrolls I mentioned very interestingly the Dead Sea Scrolls and the connection with Josephus I've had a bunch of biblical scholars on everyone references Josephus But at the same time they acknowledge that it's just a terrible terrible historical source That has created an incredible amount of havoc in terms of these books that we have that people live their whole life on and and have Generationally kind of look back up at mom believed it dad believed it granddad believed it and that's a very hard thing to kind of Pull yourself out of but if I can I'd switch back to the et thing Because I always like to throw this in there because even I forget it sometimes the in the et realm One of the ways that there is Community is being divided and it's fractured in a bunch of different ways Is a lot of talk about consciousness as it relates to et And I don't know if et is multi-dimensional one. I don't know why is everyone hung up on the nuts and bolts reality of it So i'm going to pound on a drum that I pound on a lot is look at the nukes So the ufo's fly over our nuke Air force bases And one by one they go to each missile silo and they shoot down a red beam And they shut off each one of the missiles and this is reported from people above the ground The soldiers who are out there responsible for protecting the perimeter of the base. It's also reported from inside The guy who's responsible for pushing the button and sending those missiles on their way to russia And he's like there is no way this can happen, but it just happened And et did it? What does that say about et's ability? vis-a-vis our technology What does that say about the moral imperative? Of et et's nde as I like to say It it begins to hint at it in the same way that you take and I do too take the near-death experience accounts and say We can't take these literally, but what do they begin to suggest and then switch over if you would to the ukraine Where the ufo's did the same thing? But instead of turning the nukes off They turned them on And they went to the silo and they shot down the red beam and one by one They turned the nukes on And the russian soldiers were like what are we going to do the earth will be destroyed We have no way of stuff. We're not in control This is our most advanced technology and we're not in control of it And then the et's Turned them back off I don't know what that means. I don't know how many different species there are how many different intelligences there are I don't know about time travel. I don't know about the rest of it but people who want to dismiss ufo's and et is purely a problem that has to be Can be chalked up to consciousness and some kind of interdimensional Hocus pocus that we don't know of are missing the point that they have demonstrated a mastery of our most advanced technology And that would kind of get should give us pause On both those fronts in terms of the nuts and bolts reality of it Not that there isn't a consciousness reality of it too, but then also what could potentially be The agenda on you know as we've been talking about on a spiritual level because they're telling us something on a moral level And both you and I mark would say well that moral level is really Speaking to something on a spiritual level that we don't quite or we get but we don't want to quite go there all the time What are your thoughts on that? Well, I'll start with the reality of et slash other intelligences that are out there And I first like to go to john mack And the work that he did harvard psychiatrist look at looked at cases of abduction I have his books. They're extremely. Well documented very detailed And he kind of reminds me of dr. Ian stephenson from the university of virginia Psychiatrists was looking at things very closely and was like look if I want to If I want to take all these data points in the most logical conclusion is reincarnation of all these kids with past life memories john mack seemed to come to a very similar place and there are many others that have looked at this too But there's something going on. I don't think I'm an expert on it There's a lot that I don't know and understand But the fact that there does seem to be going something going on Indicates we need to ask the questions that you're asking alexis. How does that interplay on a physical level with geopolitics? What's what's going on beyond what we can see? It's and it's very similar to the world of consciousness Why people have a hard time accepting it? It implies there are things that we can't access with our senses And it also implies that there are things that we know but we have an amnesia too These are really hard concepts to accept because they shatter reality and since I guess my reality has been shattered so much I'm very open-minded to at least the possibility. I don't know what's true and what's not but I think we have to consider it And also we have to be very skeptical of history Because we're seeing Right now that history is being manipulated an event will happen The news will frame it one way and that that it might go down in the history books as having happened that way When in fact it leaves out many other things So how does that ripple into what's happened in the past and what has not been disclosed in the media? That might have been more mainstream at one point which could relate to et or otherwise and I guess where I would close on that is we have to consider it and look into it very closely Absolutely so uh mark we could I've thoroughly enjoy all all of this and you're you're Such a deep thinker and you're at another level That allows you to talk about all these topics and weave them together in a way that very very few people can So I strongly encourage anyone to who's interested to pick up All of these books if you're unfamiliar with an end to upside down thinking you'll find it just They're really really readable well sourced in terms of the support for what he's saying and the same with this new book And end to upside down liberty Where do you plan on going next and and what are you gonna? I guess the book is just out now so Where do you what do you want to do with it and and where do you plan to go next with it mark? I wish I knew my life over the last five plus years has been The continuous mystery of I follow what I'm passionate in and what seems to align with my values So I'm going to continue doing that and life seems to present itself with things that I need to do So generally that's how I think about it But what I feel right now is there's urgency to get the message out about this stuff So I really want to get the message out about the book and get people at least questioning these topics I want to go back to something you said earlier about like, you know Should we be changing people's minds or are they on their own path and for me? What I like to do is put information out and those who are interested might gravitate towards it I'm not going to change people and actually I don't know their karmic path or their spiritual path Maybe they're not supposed to change So it's more about making things accessible for those who are interested and that's generally how I look at it Um, and we'll see where that goes and I think also as I as the world unfolds in Different ways I might get pulled into uh new areas I think that's great and I really I really agree with you on one of the points that you made I feel so strongly similarly is that You know, we just have to do our best in personally figuring this out and figuring out how to take action Because I am a western guy too. You know, I love the eastern philosophy of Non-dual and sometimes that means non-dual, you know, don't have to do, you know Don't be careful about what you do. But I always remember talking to A guy and I won't mention his name, but he was in He was in the t.m. Cult for a lot of years, you know, and he was celibate for a lot of years and it's not rick by the way but Although rick was too and then, you know traveled the world Teaching for their guru and then only to find out he was all about having sex with his girls and you know Cheating when the money and doing all that other stuff. So, you know, be careful who you follow and stuff like that But the what this guy told me I'm bearing the lead He said he got very serious and he goes Never get between a seeker and their guru I'm like, well, I'll take that one on myself. Well, fuck. Yes. I'm gonna get between a seeker and their guru so if your guru is You know, we can name any any number of people in the in the news who are cult leaders But we can also name, you know, if your guru is Any of the people who are peddling this pandemic peddling just trust me give me all your rights and all your liberties and you'll be fine If that's your guru I will Get in the I will try and disrupt not physically but intellectually I will try and disrupt that connection and I do feel like that's my job because I think the foremost value Is one love everyone but two tell the truth And that's what I think you're trying to do and that's what I'm trying to do too. We got to tell the truth No choice I agree with you, Alex And I commend you for what you've been doing You've been going out there on a limb with many topics and I've learned a time from your show And I know your listeners have too. So thank you Oh, well, that's nice of you to say but uh, thanks for we're colleagues in this endeavor Mark it's it's fantastic to talk to you and we'll have to do it again soon Thanks a lot for coming on. I would love that and thank you again for having me Thanks again to mark gober for joining me today on skeptical The one question I'd have to tee up from this interview is do you think frontier science Parapsychology near the earth experience all the rest of it Has a special role to play in this kind of full frontal assault on science Is there something special in what they discovered? Because the counter argument to that is hey, that's just because you went and looked at Parapsychology and you saw that it's everywhere. It wasn't anything special about parapsychology and consciousness Science over the last 10 or 20 years. It's really everywhere and that's a reasonable counter argument So I'd like to hear what your thoughts are on that Track me down. Let me know Until next time. Take care. Bye for now