 And welcome to Cooper Union what's happening with human rights around the world on think tech live broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii and one in New York air. I'm your host, Joshua Cooper, and the title of today's episode is strategic litigation to save lives stand up and strategize to save Ukraine. I'm so fortunate to have Anna joining me today to share the important work she does as a strategic litigation lawyer with Ukrainian Helsinki Human Rights Union. But I'm very honored that she would actually share her story with us today about the occupation of her city of Postamel, and its impact it's had on her life as the invaders destroyed many aspects of the beautiful culture of Ukraine. Anna, thank you so much for being with us today. Hi. Thank you for having me. Good morning and good day good evening for everybody. Yes. So, I think I'm going to start with them. There's a lawyer in nearby key 10 kilometers away. And my family also live there. So, and in the early morning of 24 February, around six o'clock, six and 30 am, I was having my breakfast and I got a message from my friends. About the Putin's announced about the special so called special operation of Ukraine and that was me and for me, the real war had been started. And that day, I saw Russian helicopters flying very close to the land over our houses. And I also saw the black smoke in the area of International Airport Antonov, maybe you have heard that was really straight is strategically important for Russians to see this object military to have and bomb key from this place. And so, my family was scared, and they were shocked they didn't expect this so they didn't want to leave their homes that day. Unfortunately, my husband wanted, and we managed to leave a stomach around 10pm with our pets, and taking all these necessary things. So in my head, I said goodbye to my house. And after I think one week and then one week later my neighbors called me and said that my house was destroyed. And meanwhile, my grandmother, my father, my father's wife and my nine year old brother, this ensemble. And in the early morning of 25th February, and the bridge, the two bridge that lead into the key were blown up to be close to my house. We were lucky. And because very constant hostilities, the electricity, the gas and other communications. Anna. Yes, I'm here, sorry. No problem. I know it's, it's under. Pain is conditions and circumstances. Just wanted to make sure you're okay, but please continue. And our heart goes out to the thought of having to leave your home. And then hearing, of course, homes are always the place that we consider. That's based where you retreat to and then hearing that it's been bombed but if you can still continue in the internet's okay. Please keep sharing about Post Malcivi and your family and what happened next. So, as I said, the, the, the ensemble was really cut off give on on 25 February and it was in the, and the Russian vehicles came into a stumble and so I think the house some was occupied from the 24 five so has some and until to second April. The official information was from the Ukrainian government on Russian government we don't have both the time lapse of occupation. So, one day, the second March. My father's wife was my nine year old brother, they trying to leave a stumble to get place warm and safe place. And they were drawing on their red small car. And once they reached the street land or which are leading to airport and tunnel. The car was shot instantly. My father's wife died immediately. My little brother was wounded. She's he stuck in the car and he couldn't get out from the car. And some very good people are very sinful and will be sinful for the whole of life. They risk in their life. Yeah, they saved my brother, they took him out of the car and sheltered. And that's very good that we have, we had some connections and we had an opportunity and we could speak a little bit, one minute, maybe per day. And for a week, my brother, he was hidden in different three different places with different people. Yeah, alone, before my father managed to to found him. So, then they were reunited. I think it was nine at March, yeah, nine, nine, nine March. And they could leave a stumble on 11 March by car on the way. So that was not a green corridor, but it was earlier, earlier than green corridor. However, you know that any green corridor that have been in Ukraine, they are not there. There was no guarantee for safe. A lot of people died during green corridors. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's, that is what I know, and also I know that one of the cases we are working on that our mayor, mayor of our city, he was also killed with his comrades while delivering food and and some stuff that just well volunteering. So, yeah, now the Russians, they didn't follow any humanitarian rules, international humanitarian norms, rules. And they, they, they, they, they left mines in their corpses in her stomach, as we can still believe and the course of our city is destroyed out of buildings. Yes. That's not only about the summer, but also butcher here being we are really close three cities. And we are really now afraid for the second attempt. I think our government is now more ready for this. Yes, it's, it's what we see every day unfolding. And it's so important to hear from you directly about what's happening in your homeland in your community, and more importantly to build the to share exactly how Russia is violating international humanitarian law, and be able to hear directly from you in the work that you do. And we also know the strategic litigation that the Ukrainian Helsinki Human Rights Union is gathering this kind of information. The sad part of course is that it's happening to you and to all of your neighbors. And so maybe you could share with us a bit more about the work of Ukrainian Helsinki Human Rights Union why it was created, and what it does, and then we can also see how important it is going forward to then make sure that hopefully no one else will ever be invaded again and the theme of never again, really more than just a slogan for social justice but a reality in international public law. Yes. First of all, I would like to know that our organization is really big. This is like an association, not organization but an association of different human rights organization. And this sense, and therefore this is the biggest human rights organization in Ukraine. So, we also have some part interest in before the European Court of Human Rights. Anna, thank you so much. I know we lost you there. No, we know it's, it's horrendous conditions, but we thank you so much for making time. And we had been sharing your website so you can continue again I know you're talking about being an association and really an umbrella of many NGOs, demanding and organizing for universal values that of course are also important to the people of Ukraine so we can just start there with the work of the association, and then maybe we can get into. If there is a typical day what are some of the main projects and actions that you're taking regarding this current conflict that has begun, and of course, building on the example that you shared with us with the personal project story as well. So, with a lot of different directions, the educational programs for people, for teachers, for judges, for advocates to maintain their, to increase their knowledge of human rights. The second is documenting human rights violations and especially war crimes. Yeah, this project and this center was created in 2014, and the center was to be closed. I think in December, but now we know that we are also, we are, again, is looking for the stuff for this center. And also this center wrote, has wrote the stories and the guides, not the guides, but the little books about history of different cities in the eastern of Ukraine, explaining the chronology of military action, hostilities, and the military and the war crimes that had been committed on the territories. The strategic litigation center where I work. So we are focused on European Court of Human Rights. And also we have the local offices where our lawyers provide free legal aid and consultations for people. So everybody from the street can just come and give the consultation on different legal issues and problems. So, that's our main project. We were in global, yeah, and also, we are, we were also, we have the people who, the specialists who work in on advocating, advocating a law and provide expert, assessments of law amendments, proposal, some projects, draft law, something like this. Now also, but I'm only, we are very big organization, more than 100 people, I think. So I'm more focused on my strategic litigation center. And now we also have a lot of new projects. For example, we run the reviews of everything is a game is internet. Yes. Good point, I hear you. I hear you and we very much want to hear about maybe two areas. Can you share with us. The examples of war crimes that you have been able to document what are the most serious ones. And then maybe we can expand a bit into what you talked about with some of those new initiatives that you were describing that you're working on those would both be very fascinating for the world to be know about. Yes. I think, for me, the most terrible war crimes is the war, the war, the war, the war, the crimes conserving children, raping children, and then killing children. And we have such accidents and such cases in butcher that's close to a stumble. Yes. And that's not only girls, but also little boys. So yeah, I think this types of crime are the most because, as you know, like children are the most. I think the most protectable on the international humanitarian law and that's unimaginable how they could treat them like this. Yes, and also a lot of what I what I mean, the fixed go is the most of the crimes is the shooting of the cars and shooting the civilians just and the people who die in in the houses as a result of bombing. That's was my, the most of the crimes I have documented. We have heard many people now will never forget the word of Bukha but they don't know the map of Ukraine so you being able to share how close you live, and also some specific examples of the violations of the UN convention on the rights of the child but also humanitarian law that that children of course have a special protection because of their vulnerability. And as you shared that there was rape of young girls and women but then also boys and just the brutality of the actions against innocent civilians who have done nothing. I was just trying to survive while Putin is increasing his attacks, and of course, letting and encouraging the soldiers, where we saw he gave an award to some of the soldiers, Italian that had done some of the most brutal documented violations of humanitarian law. So we, we thank you so much, Anna for being able to share with us. And the other point that you were talking about was you were actually getting into some of the new strategic litigation initiatives that you're taking and those are, are equally important. And as we look at what is going on. We thank you so much for being able to stay with us during this time, and we can hear you. And we will be able to make this work well because people around the world do want to know what's happened. We know that many people were trapped in Mario pool and you're just getting the information now. We know also that the quarters you're describing are not accessible we've even heard that people are forced to go to Russia, and that the only quarter to leave a city where the bombing and violence is taking place is to go into Russia, which of course no one would want to go after experiencing what you have shared of your home being bombed of your brother and father being attacked and her his partner being murdered there so we thank you so much for for taking the time to share with us about the ongoing Russian attacks and Ukraine, even blocking the World Food Program from reaching the seas cities with nutritional aid and disrupting any food that's even going to other parts of the world so if you do want to share and you can about some of the new actions that you're taking. We agree with you as well as with Secretary General Gutierrez that work is evil. And we know there's more actions that we're documenting to cooperate with the International Criminal Court but please give us some insights to the important works that that you do. I'm sorry for the change like location I hope you can see me. It's fine. Absolutely. So thank you. As long as you're safe is most important. Okay, so first of all, everyone of our center is writing legal articles, because the legislations are changed, very almost every day and there are a lot of new rules. So, yes, the second one. We created an instruction on how to apply to European Court of Human Rights, not only for the lawyer but also that this is instruction is quite simple and every person could follow the instructions and submit an application. So we developed the drafts of typical situations, murder, enforced disappearance, arbitrary detention, torture, property damage and also we provided in this instruction with drafts of crime reports to both to Ukrainian and Russian law enforcement agencies and moreover we are now working on the chat bot, which will, which is supposed to create an application to the European Court of Human Rights on the algorithms based on the, on the information provided by the applicant on the messengers. We also have, we also continue documenting work crimes together with other organization and in order to, to forward this information to the international criminal court court. We have project on Ukrainian about Ukrainian war prisoners, and also about Russian war prisoners prisoners but here I want to stress that we don't protect them. But we rather looking for the evidence of the war crimes, in which this particular war Russian prisoners may be involved in order to proceed the criminal investigations. And this information may also be forward to the foreign law enforcement agencies because some of the European countries, they have quite good implementation of universal jurisdiction principle, and they are already started and they will already launch their own criminal proceedings and we do appreciate this very much, because you never know when the, where the suspect person will appear, yeah, and when. So, yeah, also we have everybody works on individual individual cases. Where it contains questioning applicants, witnesses, collecting evidence, filling crime reports within Ukrainian and Russian law enforcement agencies, and filling applications complaints to the European Court of Human Rights and also request on the rule, 39 of the rule of the court for interim measures. And this mechanism is the most relevant to the name of the topic of this stream, I think, because, especially this procedure can affect and change the situation promptly. For example, I would like to tell you about the rule, 39 about the stomach. On, yeah, on nine, ninth March, the European Court of Human Rights made the rules and decision on interim measures and indicated Russian government to ensure free access of the civilians. To the green corridors. And I don't know, maybe this is, this is, this is not linked, but on nine, the day before the first green corridor was announced for a stomach. So maybe this was just accident. I don't know. I appreciate it. It's a good point to show the rule of law and to show the creativity behind this strategic litigation. We appreciate you talking about the international criminal court at the global level, but many people are not aware of the European Court of Human Rights and it's great for you to get into specific articles that you are, but then also your aspect of national universal jurisdiction at the national level we know Germany just prosecuted a case in Syria. So all of the arsenal of advocacy that you're doing is absolutely important. It's true, maybe we might not be able to measure exactly, but we know we must combine all of the opportunities to organize to ensure the rule of law. I know we're running out of time today on a, but we would definitely like to continue the conversation when you have more time and we thank you so much for sharing with us the important work of your association. And we thank you for your bravery and all the work that you're doing that even when you see what is happening all around you you still stand up for human rights, and we applaud your bravery. And we're sending Aloha from Hawaii. Thank you so much for having and for your attention to Ukraine. Please keep doing this. Thank you. Thank you, and we will keep reporting and monitoring how we're able to use international humanitarian law, focusing on war crimes and crimes against humanity, but also the international human rights mechanisms that exist at the global, as well as the international level, and I do agree with you that the universal jurisdiction claims is very true because you never know where those soldiers who have committed those crimes might be in the future but what you're doing is, is laying a precedence that if anyone ever thinks they can invade another country and operate without any consequences that will make sure that laws as strong as possible to know that they will have their date in the court of law. So it's definitely happening in the court of public opinion around the world, as the world stands in solidarity with you and your people as you fight for freedom. Yes, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye. Aloha. Bye. Mahalo.