 Nakalanshide, mahala kufuti mwuranga kiiwi in Mwuranga koaffi, ¨Aipca Kang'ara Church in Kitugi Mutyoya Sub-County¨ ¨Senator Kangata¨ SAID that people of the region have more patinend issues ¨that needed to be addressed before they accept the BBI document. ¨Wat can be done to popularize this BBI especially in the Mount Kenyar region kwenya region, in regions like this where we have so many who still feel that their needs have not been addressed. These questions we shall be addressing right now. Very good morning to you. Thank you very much for keeping it Y254. If at all you are just joining us, this is why in the morning we are just in time for the discussion of the day as we talk about politics. Joining me is Kennedy Muruga who is a legal and political analyst, also a council member at the law society of Kenya branch here in Nairobi. Ken has been with me since we started. Now we continue with him. Karl Marx shall be joining us in a bit. Ken, thank you very much for being with us Bado. And sorry for that. Let's dwell into politics but even as we do that we would like to make sure that we also participate with you. Make sure that you also stay with us in this conversation, give us your take. The hashtag on Twitter is Y in the morning at Ramaguko at Y254 channel. Make sure that you engage with us on this discussion. When Karl Marx shall come he shall join you but in regards to what Senator Kangata said that the BBI document is still not yet accepted in the region. Saying that people have some partner issues that needed to be addressed before they can accept the BBI. What is the possible solution towards this? I think there is a common shared view that the BBI process has not been inclusive across board. There is a sense of feeling amongst Kenyans that they have not been part and parcel of the BBI process. So that in itself gives a lot of resentment to this document. Of course the politics going on around is some groups are oscillating around BBI and those who are opposed to the BBI process. So there is a political aspect but for me I think the biggest point that Kenyans have been making is that they do not feel that the BBI was inclusive. Although they agree that it is a good process and it's a good document. I'm looking at what the Senator Majuhti Weeps had also said and I quote. I just stated the plain truth for the president. That was the letter that he had sent to the president to know and to take remedial action. People in the mountain region want some bedeviling problems to be addressed first and the BBI process to come in second. What do you think about that? In a sense I agree with him but I will differ with him shortly. Indeed if we want the BBI process to continue and that started from the handshake between the president and the right honour borello Dinga then could we have gone back to the ground, back to the people and found out what are the inherent problems that they are facing. And for Central Kenya they feel disenchanted, dissatisfied with the BBI process for many reasons. First they feel their leaders were not included, they feel the president is not or rather the government is not giving development or they are not feeling the development aspects on the ground. But you know the BBI before we got to this point, before we went to BOMAS they were moving around the counties and it was public participation was done, the views were collected during that whole period before BOMAS. In fact and I must reiterate for Central Kenya there has been no point where they say BBI is not a good document. They agree with the document, that is what I hear. The only problem is they feel that there are certain aspects that have been neglected and they want to sort of have that addressed first even as you talk about BBI. So if I was the president and I and together the right honourable prime minister probably we will go and listen. You will remember that a lot of leaders in Central Kenya are faulting the president. Every time they meet it is not a discussion. They always seem to say that it is a shouting march with the president giving them feedback. So probably these leaders must be included in a discussion for them to feel part and parcel of this BBI process. Do you think then it will it sail through to the end? Will it get to the point where we get to a referendum and the BBI succeeds? We are way ahead of schedule. BBI is way ahead of schedule and I can tell you for sure that moment will come. I mean we are now going through the signature verification process which should be concluded in the next few days. Yes the signature verification process yes it is ongoing but that doesn't mean that it will pass. Does having signatures verified mean that the document has been passed? No I think well thank you for that correction. I think what we are saying is that at least the BBI discussion will be put to a vote in a referendum. But will it sail through? Whether it sails through or not depends with what is going to be done between now and the time when this document will be put to vote. I'm looking at what the senator said and I quote unless we see major political party leaders like the president himself, Moses Otangula, Mosaliam Budavadi, Kanozo Musioka, Dr. William Ruto, and Rayla Odiga in the forefront drumming up support for the process then it will not sail through. Now that is political blackmail because not all these leaders will support the BBI process and they have a right to oppose it including the deputy president he does no need to agree with the process. So one cannot say that until all these leaders support the BBI process is when Central Kenya will embrace this document. Cohesion, cohesiveness. That cohesiveness will not be achieved in the manner that the senator is suggesting. The cohesiveness is in terms of agreeing with the proposals, disagreeing with the proposals and letting Kenyans decide on how to proceed. I can tell you for sure Central Kenya is one of the biggest beneficiaries in the BBI process. First and even if you were to look at it kindly, if there is a community that has sort of penetrated other communities in terms of their investments and growth and what is a Central Kenya community and this handshake process that led to the BBI was a sort of discussion about ensuring continuity and peace especially during the elective processes. And you will agree with me that a lot of people from Central Kenya I am not trying to be tribal but a lot of people from Central Kenya will always face the brunt of election violence. That is what the BBI process is going to cure and live along that even in terms of the review of boundaries in the constituencies. Central Kenya is going to get the biggest share. So I feel that a lot of leaders have not shared the potential benefits that Kenyans are going to enjoy at large with the BBI process. And I can tell you for sure in the next few days we are going to see more discussions. You remember yesterday the Prime Minister has been crisscrossing the country a few weeks ago, a few days ago he has been in Central Kenya. He was in Muranga, he was in Kiambu, he was in Nyeri just in a week. And when the president and I was looking at the multitudes we have images of what happened yesterday that were also trending online where he was speaking at Arali. So many people came in, music nobody can stop reggae. Yes and that is now we are getting into the election process and the BBI discussion. Remember when the opponents of this BBI process have actually been crisscrossing the country telling Kenyans to oppose this document. You have not seen the Prime Minister or any of the proponents including the president going out to popularize this document. You wait until that time comes. Should the president try and get to the central region and get their votes on the BBI? I think he should. And why I am saying this is that if there is the biggest legacy that President Hurukinyata is going to leave this country, it is the BBI process. The BBI process that entrenches peace, that entrenches good relations between communities, development and leadership and economic growth basically. The biggest legacy for President Hurukinyata is the BBI process and I would hate to imagine that in his backyard that is where the BBI process is facing the biggest opposition. Yes, is it a cause to worry when you see that till now he has not yet tried to popularize the BBI in his own backyard with Sen. Erong Kangasna saying this. That as some people argue that Dr. Ruto has been excluded in the BBI push but I wish to say that it was him who ran away by failing to obey his boss. And he said also that a majority of political leaders like the president himself and many others. And here we are talking about the NASA principles together with Dr. William Ruto that they have to be at the forefront to drumming up support for the BBI and if not it will not see the light of day. I think I agree that the president needs to reach out to the leaders in Central Kenya, have a discussion with them, listen to them, hear where the problems are and most importantly he has to reach out to his deputy president. Not so much to gain consensus but to even listen to him. So proposals that are being brought by the deputy president are valid but now that he hasn't. I think it is still too early and not much time has been lost. Remember we are not yet, we don't have a final document in terms of a referendum question. And until we have that referendum question is when we will see a lot of consensus that will be built around the document. But we must not forget that this is a political process and a lot of politicians are also trying to test their strength and their abilities and their might. And some will look at it and see that probably this is the right time for me to oppose this document. Or probably this is the time for me to oscillate and partner around a certain candidate for their own interests in 2022. If you are saying that it is not yet too late for someone like the DP, is it too late for him, is it too late for the president to try reaching out to him? And as a matter of fact who should reach out to who in the first place? I think the president as a symbol of unity brings out, brings every Kenyan together should reach out to any of his allies who express this content. Probably he is the steps he is taking or the BBI process. But time is not lost. If you ask me we still have time, we still have time to build consensus. We still have time to build discussions. Let the BBI not be a discussion around leaders. This is our document and Kenyans must own it or oppose it. But it is. It is the leader who brought it to Kenyans. Yeah because we have... They are bringing the factions. Now we have UDA, and we have Jubilee. Yes. And we do not want that kind of political differences to surround this document. Let the BBI document be a national discussion beyond politics, beyond political parties, beyond political leaders. Because this is one of the documents that I think represents the views of Kenyans. I know that we have not had civic education. And the government must now put in place a budget for civic education. Let civic leaders and civil society groups discuss this document with Munaichi on the ground. Correct the areas that we feel ought to be changed and let the document be put to a vote. Now what about the areas that the Wanaichi feel as though they need to be reconsidered in the document? Is it too late as far as we have reached now to reconsider such things? I think it may be too late to achieve full consensus on a lot of issues. Remember we are now going on with the verification of signatures. Thereafter a referendum question will be published. So there may be just some small room for discussion on... You may never achieve full consensus. It's not possible. People don't agree on the smallest of things. So whatever document we have, remember even the 2010 constitution, we had a lot of disagreements with it. A lot of leaders right now opposed it. We are building on it and constitutional process, constitutional makings are continuous process. Now let me quote Hon Roborailo Dinga. He said, and I quote, they say Rila is analogue. They said children will have lab props. He has forgotten that now he is giving out hand cuts and will barrels. What are the jobs, where are the jobs and where the state of the art is stadia? Yotas on that. I agree with the prime minister. I agree with Hon Roborailo Dinga. And indeed the chickens have come home for William President because he made certain promises. Kenyans can hold him accountable to those promises. And here we are where the symbol of development is the will barrel. I'm not down playing the importance of those small things because it supports the juwakali sector to a large extent. But I think we can do better as a government. Can we set up ICT incubation centers in those areas, in the areas that the deputy president visits? Can we set ICT incubation centers and let the youth come up with projects, applications, instead of the art ideas that can help... These are the things that the doctor is saying. The doctor is saying that they are looking at the issues regards to Wanaichi through UDA, through the Hasla Nation. What you're saying. Are you proposing that? What I'm proposing is that a will barrel is... And I don't think that when we say the will barrel economics or what, it's symbolic, it's not just the will barrel. Some of these Wanaichi's are empowered by giving some small capital. I saw somebody who was setting up some small business and he was giving a public address system. So this will barrel is not the true will barrel aspects. It's more about empowerment. And I agree with the deputy president to that extent. But we can do better. Now, speaking of which, doing better, can he bring these projects, not as UDA party, but as Jubilee party? Is it possible to just copy or cut and paste to something from that party to Jubilee party? I think we know what has been going on around the Jubilee party. And I know that the deputy president would not want to be confined within the small environment. And that's why probably he's also thinking beyond Jubilee. Now Hon. Borailo Diga say that there are those who are now trying to blame BBI for Jubilee failures. Israela, a minister in Jubilee government, this is what he was saying. It is them who are in office using government resources. Do you think that the BBI is what is causing all of this, the BBI that is causing all this confusion? Are these accusations even true or are they just excuses? I think these are excuses because I have not seen that the prime minister has joined the government or that he's exercising certain powers within the Jubilee government. Last I checked, we still have a deputy president. Last I checked, the president is still in office. So let us not engage in this blame game process or to even blame the BBI. I think the intention of the president to reach out to the prime minister and have a handshake and settle old political scores and think beyond election and think about solutions for this country. That is where we ought to be and I would have loved that the deputy president would have been on board this kind of discussions. Now speaking of the deputy president, this is what he said as a rejoinder. I think that's political language. I think one cannot really say that Raela was born into a certain family. We were born into a community. All of us were born into a community. At that time, we were born into a community. We were born into a community. We were born into a community. We cannot really say that Raila was born into a certain family. Raila has brought himself and regards himself as a common monainch. His history is very clear what he has done and what he has gone through. Any of us and those of us in the political sphere know what Honorable Raila Odinga is. He is the farthest from dynasty than anyone else that I know. We can even call him Mahasla? I mean, he has suffered in the trenches. He has been detained in prison for a long time. Without trial, he has come out, he has been in the opposition. He has been in government. He has been the prime minister. He is a self-made person. You can say he qualifies to me. You can call him Mahasla. This is what Frank Mugo is saying on Facebook morning. Watching live from Baruchokirinaga County, Kenya is divided now more than ever. BBI is dividing Kenyans more than uniting them. That is Frank Mugo. We have Eman James. Good morning, guys. I am following the show from County 001, Mombasa. We are together. I mean, Omucheni. He is saying, morning to you. Watching from Kawangwara stage 2 in Dany, Pamoja, Nawa Kilesha. Eman James. Anasama request. Amituma Salamu Palet. Hilary Rotich. He is saying, good morning. Watching from Kericho. Thanks to our Lord. Back to studio. Okay. Victor is saying, morning to. Watching the show from Alego, Karapul, Siaya County. We have Kevin Babu. We have Bae De Ashley. Also watching. Thank you very much. Watching from Machakos. We appreciate your feedback. Make sure that you tell us what you think about these stories and also tell us where you are watching us from. Now, let's head over to the next issue. Narubi County. Such a hot debate. Ann Kananu. I don't know if my director can pull up the tweet by Nelson Harvey. Let me just get it also here. The tweet sent out by Nelson Harvey regards to Ann Kananu's swearing in. This is what your president said. The LSK would be the ideal petitioner to challenge the fraud that is the swearing in of Ann Kananu as deputy governor of Narubi County. The problem is that deep state will appoint a lawyer to take over and withdraw the petition as soon as it is filed. Ismail, what do you think about that? You said he is a very straight forward. I agree with the president and I share in his frustrations. I think we were conducted to take in through some charade of a vetting exercise conducted by the county assembly of Narubi in respect to Ann Kananu's nomination waikawa na sunko. Even as he continues to tell us why he called it a charade? It's a charade. And I'm saying that for this reason. One, that at the time when the case that challenged the nomination of Ann Kananu was withdrawn recently there was already a declaration of a vacancy. There was a declaration and a gazetment by the IEBC of a vacancy for the office of the governor of Narubi. Now, why the IEBC made such a declaration is very simple. That there was no substantive deputy to act in the place of Adiji and therefore be nominated as a governor. So there was a vacancy. Now, we have already crossed we have now gone beyond the vetting process with the declaration. It means that there was no governor and there was no deputy and that is why the speaker was acting in the position of governor. So how can we then reverse a constitutional process and then start vetting somebody for the position of deputy governor when there was already a declaration of a vacancy? These are illegalities in law. When you look at the swirling in of Ann Kananu which was actually accumulation of it was a tense moment we had behind the scenes we have intrigues that kicked off Mike Sonko which we shall touch on later on but now the IEBC had indicated that it will conduct a bi-election in Nairobi next month. Do you see this forthcoming? Of course, now we are in a legal conundrum because one does not know how to proceed then. We have we now have somebody who has been cleared now nominated to act as and Sonin actually to act as deputy governor and we can argue then thereafter that he can now be Sonin father to act as a governor now then there will be no need for a bi-election which is an illegality under law. Now for instance the simple thing is this that the custodian of the sales of a county is a governor now if you look at the county government act the once once the DG is appointed the document has to be sealed by the governor to confirm the appointment of the deputy governor who's going to do that? Now this is supposed to happen right now see we have he was Sonin but now we have the speaker who is currently acting as the governor does also the speakers have a role to play in this whole mix up does he have mandates that can be able to help Kananu rise up the ranks? Of course now basically the speaker should vaket once the timelines expire he ought to vaket he ought to vaket his office but that was contemplated if an election was going to be held now if we are taking the direction there's not going to be an election then probably what should happen is the speaker should vaket his office automatically and let vaket office of acting as governor and let Kananu act which is again a legal quagmire let me quote what a nominata in the MCA that is Mary she said this and I quote it is not what we expected to happen but we have no choice the government affairs to have taken control over Nairobi and the best thing for us is to support the Nairobi metropolitan services something that the LSK president talked about and in his own words he talked about deep state what do you think about that? well what I know is that is that I am of the view that probably the government do not want to conduct a by election for one reason or the other probably they do not want to subject themselves to another defeat like what happened in some when I suspect so well what about yet another reason looking at the amount of money that could be spent at a by election funds the expenses these are taxpayers funds this is our funds and the government cannot suddenly say they want to sort of engage in cost cutting measures and misuse money this is an electoral process that Kenyans must it's in fact a constitutional electoral process so the government cannot suddenly say we cannot engage in this constitutional process because we are trying to save money so I suspect that there was fear in government and that they were going they didn't have the perfect nominees for election at least not the ones who could be elected and so the fear was that they were going to suffer another defeat probably that is what informed but I suspect that in the coming days there is going to be discussions on whether and cananu can act not just in the position of governor but even as a deputy governor because she was and can you imagine that even if if a governor is appointed rather even if even if an election is held then an kananu cannot even sit as deputy governor because the governor has the right to appoint whichever deputy governor that he or she wants so we are looking at a case scenario if the by elections take place the deputy governor has the ability to remove her from office the governor has the ability to remove her from office thereby making this whole process null and void nullity yes if we have the by elections still and we have a governor if the governor chooses to retain her will also this it have an effect on this decision you you are making the assumption that if the election were to be held then if the election were to be held then those candidates for governor will also have a running mate rather deputy governor no bini in their structure isn't that how elections normally do it and so can you imagine where he is elected as a governor and he has his deputy and then there is a sitting deputy governor in office this is a legal confusion it is as simple as this and can you imagine even up to today there has been no words from either our courts or even from the IBC about its gazette notice so in any case we are expecting an election to be held there is a substantive sitting deputy governor in office what is going to happen do you see us going for a by election we will go to a by election it may not be on the 18th of february we will go to a by election I know that I know for sure that if any Kenyan challenges this election rather appointment of deputy governor I think it has high chances of success and one of the most intriguing before we proceed I was really intrigued by one thing that the vetting exercise was conducted in the morning I know you are heading to she was approved the report was written and adopted by the assembly and there was a judge who was on standby to swear in ankanano I cannot imagine that a judge of the High Court of Kenya subjected himself to such an illegal process as the one that was was held it was in about 6 hours 6 hours and I have just heard from legal quarters that even the deputy chief justice acting as a chief justice was not aware of this swearing in process it is the chief justice who will appoint and in a judge of the High Court of Kenya to go and conduct a swearing in exercise they are putting into question the legal vicinity the judiciary also here it raises issues that probably the JAC must look into the senate minority leader say this we now have an acting governor who is not elected pending election which may not happen because acting governor Benson Mutura will resign to pave way for the DG who will appoint a deputy this is a terrible and unprecedented legal absurdity now what do you think about this do you see this forthcoming I agree it's a legal absurdity it's he has to resign from that office of governor he is not just resign he has to vacate he has to vacate not resign because he is not sitting there in a substantive position as governor yet is it try to say that the law governing the appointment of deputy governor which commenced in July 2020 and once is vetted the person must be appointed by the governor looking at this loss that we have is there a lakuna that might have been used that led to this current position that we are in as Nairobi county some of the legal situations that we have are unprecedented and as a you may not anticipate some of these scenarios why you are drafting the constitution why you are drafting any laws so these lakunas will continue to be there but this is now room for amendments this is room for improvements to review our laws to be in tandem with the political dynamics and one of them was the recent legislation on the appointments of deputy governor remember there was nothing in place then ok now he said boardroom leadership I raised these concerns during the debate on the law the county government act which was assented to by the president on the vacancy on the office of the DG how is this a case of boardroom leadership in your case? I agree with him entirely Kenyans and Nairobians were robbed of a process of deciding and electing their governor somebody was handpicked remember these and this is very strange that first there was a court order stopping the process of reviewing hand omination or decision waiting there was a court order it was so strange that the court order was lifted a few days earlier the waiting exercise was conducted in one day appointment on the same day I mean this is a boardroom leadership and I I can now confirm that probably there is a power beyond what we see that decides the leadership probably that's what they call deep state do you see this connected to the removal of the house of governor Mike Sonko you know when I last sat with you remember I predicted that governor Sonko would I remember I wish to I got it wrong but of course it is tight because then they knew that there was going to be a substantive replacement in Ankanano I think what they failed to anticipate is the legal questions in her nomination and appointment okay I would like us to just conclude this conversation here where you have a third alliance party in the court to contest Ankanano's oath of office term the process as illegal and affront to the rule of law they say this and I quote this is what their secretary general that is Fredrik Okango said and I quote they cannot use the judiciary as a shortcut to get us a governor in Nairobi the courts are there to serve all of us we want nothing we want election now talk of the judiciary is the judiciary an arm of government that you see moving forward shall be independent or should we expect more of more illegalities coming from the judiciary and what does that say about our own lawmakers who we expect to make laws that are supposed to benefit Kenyans yet we have cases like this happening I do not want to fall the judiciary entirely but this is an issue that is both political and legal and the political processes will always happen they will always be replacements or political maneuvers to replace and appoint whoever but what we ought to remember is that can we cast in stone and in law whatever political maneuvers we are doing because if you look and have already reiterated the appointment was not was not legal and I anticipate that the court will agree with the applicants in that matter the third way alliance party I am seeing Janet here saying that watching from Udaide in Kambu County politics is never my cup of tea but because we have a lot of lies and frustrations etc we have Mugoi saying watching from Baricho Samjay also on Asama good morning it's a super Monday loving the discussion thank you very much James also watching from Kiri Nyaga county thank you very much for your comments and this is Amy I am also Victor and AC I am seeing Kevin Babu and Winnie thank you very much for watching this has been a discussion on politics in matters concerning the nation I was with Kennedy Murunga who is a political and legal expert and political analyst in regards to matters concerning the nation the county of Nairobi and the BBI thank you very much Ken for finding time to join me and hopefully I don't know by then of of February where do you see the country at because by then it is expected that all this will have settled down the bi-elections and the significant verifications we are going into election full throttle expect more of these more of these with the BBI and the elections time will tell well this has been a discussion on politics the hashtag as always is why in the morning keep the conversation going on our social media platforms remember coming up next we shall have a discussion with Sarah Muni in regards to a career how best can you set goals for yourself that are achievable and that can take you to the next level stay tuned for this and much more let's take that break and be back keep it while in the morning