 Hi welcome to on-going election coverage by town meeting television this is one of many forums that we're bringing you in advance of local elections and town meeting which will be happening on the first Tuesday in March that's March 2nd 2021 that's your opportunity to weigh in on local government representation we have a mayoral election in Burlington a mayoral election in Wynuski school budgets city budgets local ballot items candidates for school board and town select boards and city council and we are doing something new this year with Burlington ballot items there are six charter changes that we will see on the Burlington ballot and we are inviting the city councilors who have promoted these charter changes tell us a little bit about them and today we're going to talk with bill ward Jen Green and Darren Springer about the thermal energy ballot item that we will see on March 2nd Jen can we turn it over to you and you can give us a rundown sure thanks Megan and I feel like it's important to start by just acknowledging the important work that channel 17 does for us and we're town meeting TV now oh excuse me town meeting TV and just to sort of how important it is for for voters in Burlingtonians to have a venue by which they can get through the latest news and updates on what's happening particularly in relation to March so thank you so much and thanks for inviting the three of us so I think I'm going to play the role as informal facilitator if that's okay I'll just start by saying that my name is Jennifer Green and I am the director of sustainability and workforce development at the Burlington Electric Department and I'm here today with Darren Springer who's the general manager of BED and bill ward the head and director of the department for planning and inspections so we're going to talk about this charter change that you referenced Megan but I want to first sort of Darren allow you introduce yourself in more detail and then ask you specifically about sort of net zero energy more broadly because I think that will lay the table for a conversation on this charter change so to you Darren thanks very much Jen and and again thanks for having us on today to town meeting TV Darren Springer general manager with Burlington Electric Department and in terms of you know our broader net zero energy goal in the city of Burlington our goal is to take the accomplishment we've already had of being 100% renewable when it comes to our electricity and also now try to reduce and eventually eliminate fossil fuel and greenhouse gas emissions in the thermal and transportation specifically ground transportation sectors and when we talk about thermal we're really talking about fossil fuel use in buildings being a significant component of our work in Vermont thermal sector emissions are the number two source of emissions with transportation being number one in Burlington buildings is roughly 60% of the work that we anticipate needing to be done to reach the net zero energy goal relative to other sectors and we are working on that from Burlington Electric's perspective in part by offering incentives for things like cold climate heat pumps and other efficient clean energy technologies that can help heat and cool buildings efficiently and keep them comfortable as well. Thank you Darren so I think this is a good segue over to Bill actually Bill if you don't mind introducing yourself a little more detail you know we've had the pleasure now of sort of working in conjunction with DPI so the BED DPI team will you just describe your your office a little bit and and tell us who you are. Sure so my name is Bill Ward and I'm the director of the permitting and inspections department that's probably a relatively new term for some residents because previously I was the director of the code enforcement department what we've done through the mayor's leadership we've created a one-stop shop for permitting now it's been stymied a little bit by the fact that we were shut down a little bit for the pandemic and had reduced staffing but what we have done is we now have the code enforcement office is joined they're a division within the department together with the zoning team and the trades division team so the department is responsible for issuance of the zoning permits the trades permits and inspecting all of the rental housing in the city of Burlington and of course all of those buildings can potentially use fossil fuels and that's where permitting aspect comes into the connection here. Thank you so much Bill so sort of back to you Darren so there is a charter change being proposed you've just described net zero and BED's rolling net zero can you talk a little bit about the charter change so that folks get the high-level understanding of of what's being proposed? Absolutely and let me just say as context when when we're thinking about this Burlington Electric is kind of sharing the broad view from an energy policy climate policy perspective Bill's department is the department of the city that would regulate and enforce these types of provisions so I just wanted any viewers to be clear about the division of labor here relative to these policies in terms of the charter change language what it what it's seeking is for the city and specifically Bill's department would have the ability to issue regulations around thermal energy use broadly in buildings and that there would be authority as one means of meeting those regulations to have either alternative compliance or carbon assessment fees as one option for buildings to meet those potential regulations and importantly I believe the current language also mentions that any such fees would have to subsequently be approved by voters prior to going into effect so there's kind of a multiple stage process laid out in this proposal as it stands. So Darren in sort of four or five sentences can you tell people what will be sort of on the ballot so folks are really clear as to so what this means? Right I mean I think from from a practical standpoint what the what the focus is at the moment is particularly on new buildings you know making sure that as new buildings are coming in they're not only subject to the current state energy code which has the minimum standards for efficiency and other aspects of energy use but that really they can be designed and the city could potentially encourage them through these regulations to be designed in a way that they are compatible with the net zero energy 2030 goals as they're being constructed because we understand that going in and retrofitting buildings is a more costly enterprise than designing them right from the start and so I think if you're looking at it from a policy standpoint that's where the focus is right now is on making sure that new buildings are constructed with net zero 2030 in mind. Thank you Darren and thanks for being so specific about the division of labor because really this falls into sort of bills camp and the and the staff on bills team regulation and enforcement. Bill do you want to talk a little bit about that sort of maybe more generally and or in relation to this charter change? Sure it was a great sort of segue because in addition to just issuing the permits it's not as simple as most people realize there are regulations that go with everything that's very clear with rental housing there are specific requirements but when a person gets a building permit for example in Burlington there are already a number of other regulations similar to this sort of a checklist the inspector would virtually or in person sit down with the person who is applying for the permit and go through the list of requirements we already have things on the record for example is there asbestos abatement associated with the car project and that box is checked there are requirements that go with that are there led safe practices for the building if it's built before 1978 that box gets checked and the contractor has to comply with those regulations as Darren mentioned before the energy efficiency requirements whether it's a residential building efficiency or commercial building efficiency requirement the building officials in the city of Burlington check with the person doing the work to make sure that the work that they're going to do before it's completed complies with those areas for regulation so this would be similar to that that the building official would meet with the person who is proposing a new building and find out what the how that building was going to be heated so if it was not going to be with fossil fuels in this case they would move right on if it was going to have fossil fuels as a primary means they would they would essentially be sent to the electric department to look at what those alternatives were or to see if it met an exception where the Darren's team would work with the person to find the best way to help them gain compliance thank you Bill so curious Darren you know it once this perspective building owner a property owner person who's going to be building this new building sort of comes back to be ed what kind of guidance or support can the be ed team play to help ensure that this building owner of this proposed new structure is indeed in compliance what path might they take sure so you know one of the one of the things that Burlington Electric offers you know unique in the state is that we have our own energy efficiency team our energy services department and so when when new buildings are being constructed in the city of Burlington there's already a great process with our energy efficiency team working with the building owner developer offering incentives for going above and beyond the energy code for doing things like you know stronger insulation and weatherization you know sometimes in partnership with Vermont gas systems which is also has its own energy efficiency program so we partner in many cases looking at things like whether we can provide incentives for heat pumps for the building in some cases that might be cold climate heat pumps it could be centrally ducted heat pumps it could be ground source geothermal heat pumps which we're seeing in buildings even large buildings large commercial buildings in the city of Burlington helping to reduce fossil fuel use so our role at the electric company in this space is really providing technical expertise providing incentives and support and helping and encouraging building owners to go above and beyond whatever the requirements are and obviously if there are new city requirements that are put in place we'll certainly do everything we can through our programs to make those as accessible and affordable and feasible as possible. So it sounds like Darren and just to be clear to folks that are listening it's BED that could provide the technical support or guidance. Bill it's really your team that's going to ensure that enforcement happens and policies are being followed and you've mentioned already that you do a lot of work in buildings as it is obviously. Can you talk a little bit about how this folds into your other work and or sort of how this might change your scope or not? Yeah I actually don't think that it would change our scope all that much it would be relatively simple for our team to sort of follow through with these and I think the other thing that a lot of people probably don't realize that there are already a lot of heat pumps going into places without this as a requirement for the primary source and I don't know if I want to tip to Darren now to add that but there is a lot of work going already to increase energy efficiency in the city so this is just an extra step to get people thinking about when they're building a new building thinking of doing it without fossil fuels that's the that's really the direction that the city's taking with this proposal. Yeah thanks Bill I mean that's a really good reminder that a lot of new buildings are being constructed without fossil fuels to start. Darren maybe I can kick it back to you then and ask why this why this particular policy and the charter change focuses specifically on new construction. Yeah maybe I should you know just for the benefit of viewers just summarize a few of the different things that are that are going on because there's there's a few things that are going on relative to buildings and energy use. First just on the incentive side the piece that we really administer we have and the mayor and I announced earlier this week that we're going to be continuing our green stimulus programs through 2021 and so those offer tremendous incentives to support our customers and support the community and support clean energy jobs during this recovery period for things like heat pumps so that that is residential customers commercial customers you know multifamily buildings we have incentives to really help with heat pumps and other programs to reduce fossil fuel use so that's one opportunity. We know from the net zero roadmap that was produced and and launched in September of 2019 and it's on our website if anybody's interested at burlingtonelectric.com nz for net zero energy you can read the roadmap the roadmap really pointed to the idea that we need incentives and policies as a city to be able to achieve some of these goals and so we're doing what we can with the incentive programs the city is pursuing policy initiatives in several areas one of which is pending before the city council and and Jen and Bill have both worked on this extensively policy for weatherization standards for rental housing and so that's one area where the city is looking at policy. Another that Bill has referenced and is I believe under consideration in the ordinance committee is the idea that under current charter there could be an ordinance to require renewable primary heating systems in new construction and that could include things like heat pumps but it also could include other renewable fuels you know efficient biomass advanced or modern wood heat boilers could include conventional systems where the customer has a conventional heating system but they've signed a binding contract or a long-term contract for a renewable fuel whether that's biodiesel or renewable gas or even other renewable sources that may be available so that's pending in the ordinance committee and then the item that we're talking about most today is this proposed charter change which would provide the city broader authority to enact regulations in the thermal and building sector for the future and my understanding of how that works is that the language if it was approved by voters would then be considered in the state legislature and would need to be acted on by the legislature and and the governor and then the city would then have that authority under the charter but as I mentioned earlier if there were new fees that were proposed as a part of this I believe the language is clear that that would be subject to an additional vote by the voters so hopefully I've summarized accurately and well the various initiatives that are taking place right now in the city yeah thank you Darren so there is a lot of play and what we're really talking about today is this proposed you know the charter change and what's going to be on the on the march ballot is there anything you'd like to add bill to help clarify for folks the role that your office plays in this again with the understanding that BED provides technical support to those property owners or people that are constructing buildings as to what they can do to abide but you know it's your job to really sort of be in charge so to speak right on the permit issue inside yeah it's very straightforward for us and I don't think there are too many changes in that as other than an extra question for the trades inspectors to be asking for construction projects and I just want to tip my hat to Darren to say how great your team is to work with it's almost like another subsection of our department because we work so well with your energy efficiency team it really feels like the way departments should work together it's a really great sense of teamwork where we partner on these things to make Burlington better for everyone. That's very kind of you Bill and likewise I know our team appreciates working with with your entire team to advance these key initiatives and you know one piece you know Jen that we haven't touched on as much related to the charter and I think it's perhaps of interest as a broader policy topic is you know we mentioned that if the charter change language was enacted that buildings and in this case the particular focus is really on new buildings at the moment would potentially have regulations and potentially have an alternative compliance or a carbon assessment that could be one way of meeting the regulations and I just want to provide the context that around carbon pricing just broadly which is important which is currently for electric sector for power plants in New England and the northeast there is a carbon price on generation for fossil fuel plants through something called the regional greenhouse gas initiative known as Reggie multi-state compact where the market prices in at a relatively low value but still prices in carbon and what we're talking about is you know putting a price on carbon pollution telling plants that generate with fossil fuels that they're putting greenhouse gas emissions and other air pollution into the air as a part of the process of generating energy and that there is a social and economic cost to that what's been discussed in Burlington and really is used by the state public utility commission as an avoided cost assumption is a carbon price of a hundred dollars a ton and the city is using that currently as a way to price the externalities of pollution into city decisions around fleet purchases for example so when the city is going to buy a new vehicle under the mayor's leadership and initiative there is now a process in place to ensure that carbon value is accounted for and what we've seen is I think in the last fleet purchase recommendation it's up to now a third of the vehicles and other other equipment purchases were being made with electric technology clean technology and so that's one tool that has been used by the city to increase the amount of clean vehicles and other equipment that's being purchased by the city many businesses use this type of carbon pricing seventh generation Ben and Jerry's to name a few local businesses in Vermont that use it and others around the country Microsoft for example so I think what what that language in the charter change is speaking to is the idea that there is a value to those emissions that could be accurately accounted for in new construction and just wanted to make that clear because I think that can be you know a subject of perhaps interest for viewers yeah thank you Darren and I think it's sort of a reminder that while Burlington is in the lead in many ways we also are acting sort of in tandem and in response to what's happening sort of in the market amongst our business community as well as what other cities are doing I mean although we are out front oftentimes we never do it alone we're always looking for sort of lessons learned from other places I know for example you know we've been looking at New York City and what their carbon fee is I believe it's $263 a ton or something of that nature so I know whenever the city sort of thinks proactively about policy and programs projects we often do it with an eye towards what's happening out there in the bigger world whether it's with businesses or or other city governments um Bill I guess I'll turn over to you is there anything else you want to add I think Darren did such a nice job talking about the carbon fee and this idea of never capturing negative externality um yeah I was going to add that for folks that follow city council it's been an interesting year there been a variety of different topics that have sort of pulled the city in a bunch of different directions but I was pleased to see that there was really broad support for this when we went together before the city council to have this charter change go before the voters I hope I'm not over characterizing that I felt that there was a great sense of support across the council for this and it was really encouraging for me to see yeah it's bold but I think it's not out of line with what the you know what the city has designated as a key challenge you know COVID we are going to get a handle on COVID and as the mayor says we still can't lose a dedication and a fight on the climate change front so I really think it is sort of this work sort of embodies looking ahead while we address the challenges that we're currently facing go ahead Darren well Jen I know we're going to be coming up on time in a few minutes but one other issue I want to address because I think it could be a misconception is you know under either the charter language or the the ordinance committee language that could potentially move forward that I mentioned earlier some folks have the misconception I think that some of these initiatives would require you know ripping out your your current heating system and having to go back to the old inefficient resistance heating that we took out of buildings back in the 1980s for example many of us in our in our homes I have here in my home in the new north end old thermostats that were related to a resistance heating system that was removed from the building Vermont really made an effort to move away from resistance electric heating which was costly and not as you know efficient as other sources I just want to be really clear nobody including us at Burlington Electric is at all interested in seeing a resurgence in resistance heating when we talk about electric heating technologies today we're talking about efficient modern heating like cold climate heat pumps and geothermal heat pumps that are way more efficient than the old resistance heating way more affordable and are much more modern in their application so I just want to make sure that folks had that understanding just broadly when we're talking about incentives or policy that that's a focus thank you Darren it's really important that you bring that up and I so appreciate how clear you've been in casting aside any of the misinformation around how this ordinance or the charter change might be construed so really great that we've had the opportunity to sort of bring that up Megan you're back on the screen which leads us to believe that you want us to wrap it up that's right you're coming to your time but thank you Darren Springer, Jen Green and Bill Ward for joining us to discuss the thermal energy charter change maybe one last time if you can just tell folks where to go for more information if they want to read about this or learn more about this item yeah I'm gonna actually defer to Bill and maybe Darren um Bill any suggestions of course you can go to the mayor's website yeah so it's gonna log in and go right now to see the quickest way unless Darren has one queued up and ready to go it's certainly of course it was discussed at the city council charter change presentation which is available on our website if you google Burlington City Council you can watch the meeting itself and I want to thank you all for joining us and sharing information about this and I want to thank the viewers for watching in advance of this vote which will be on March 2nd again and just like the general election you are encouraged and able to go to the city hall or contact your city clerk and request an absentee ballot or find your local polling place again we have a mayoral election on the docket in Burlington we have city councils for all of the districts we have school board commissioners we have a school budget to vote on as well as city budget and six charter change initiatives so get informed watch local and join us for the average of town meeting 2021 thank you all thanks Megan