 I mean who goes up on that? That is psychopathic that's right. Sam let's talk about the area that Mary and other women that are alienated mothers would they be attracted to a narcissist's psychopath because they may have experienced that in their own family. I keep hearing this from your perspective is people are not in these women are not attracted to a nice guy like me they're attracted to what they grew up with in a narcissistic world as a child. The narcissist is attracted to anyone who would provide him with supply so with attention. So right narcissist is indiscriminate in many in other words the narcissist is promiscuous is indiscriminate he doesn't it's not true it's a myth that the narcissist prefers co-dependence or prefers weak women or prefers strong women or is no preference is only preference is only test can you provide him with supply is with you you can be a narcissist you could be a psychopath you could be co-dependent you can be disabled you could be a marathon runner but if you can provide him with supply he's with you. The other the other side on the other side is different there are specific types of women who are attracted to narcissists and psychopaths and these are women who suffer from a deficit of self-love and they suffer from a deficit of self-love they because they had never not all of them but as a generalization they suffer from a deficit of self-love because they had never received unconditional love from their parents mainly the mother usually but not only and so they were unable to develop a view of themselves as lovable they don't and so here comes a narcissist and he creates this idealized image of the woman and the woman falls in love with her idealized image the one it's fake though sorry to interrupt you the narcissist's world is fake it's not real though because it becomes evil after the narcissist's psychopath takes off his mask and then you realize it's not real unconditional love you don't these women don't love the narcissist they don't love the psychopath they love the way the narcissist sees them they love they love the way the narcissist idealizes them this is called love bombing or grooming that they fall in love with themselves through the eyes of the narcissist they it is the first time these women experience self-love they had never experienced self-love and here comes the narcissist and he offers them he offers them a Faustian deal a deal with the devil he says listen i'm gonna i'm gonna make you i'm gonna make you experience self-love i'm gonna make you feel lovable for the first time in your life i'm gonna give you the unconditional love that your mother hadn't given you that your father hadn't given you i'm gonna give you this unconditional love and i'm gonna regard you in terms of a divinity of a deity you can in my eyes you're perfect you're amazing you're unprecedented you're intelligent you're brilliant you are you are you know and but the only condition i have is that you will allow me to treat you any which way i choose right you're an idiot and then there's the evil side of it too that people that women don't realize that's part of what you just said is part of the deal after 27 years of extreme abuse i finally met someone and fell in love so i experienced love with a narcissist and like Sam says you fall in love with yourself i mean that's the first time i ever noticed myself look in the mirror and i thought who's that girl you know like wow that's me i've never seen that i was 60 years old when i finally noticed who i was because of being put down by a psychopath all those years you i lost my identity but i was still me i still took care of everybody but mentally i didn't think i was worthy so yes i could understand you know for 27 years my mind was playing games on me and then for 27 months i got to feel what it was like to be a woman but then at the end of that he ended up he had a wife so narcissistic supply that's what i was and i thought whoa scary but i ended it for 15 months no contact like Sam always says no contact no contact right Sam but Sam you're exactly right there it's that promiscuous trait of a narcissist psychopath with just what Mary just mentioned the guy was married and he still hit on Mary and wanted his supply yeah it's very simple if she can provide it it's you can easily compare it to substance abuse Mary's Mary is the pusher because she can provide him with the drug of his choice and the drug of his choice is a tension simple so he's a junkie he's a junkie and junkies have no junkies have no morals a junkie would steal from his own mother a junkie would sell his daughter you know he would do anything for the drive the same with the narcissist and coming there's a point i think which might be of interest to your listeners if i may interject right go ahead and that's how narcissists and psychopaths view their children because i think it ties in with the parental alienation concept you know that was my next question so narcissists and psychopaths see their children in four ways as competition and and i'll elaborate a bit with your permission i'll elaborate on each of these as competition as nuisance as a source of supply and as pawns as as instruments or tools in the battle with the spouse or with the with the intimate partner or with the significant other you know so let's let's let's elaborate two sentences on each one of these so it's competition the narcissist that's typical of narcissists not of psychopath narcissists regard children as competition because children compete for attention children compete for the time and resources of the of the intimate partner of the spouse of the mother yeah so narcissists begin to regard the children as competing with him for scarce resources and he regards he begins to regard the children as enemies that's the first thing and then narcissists abuse children and so on precisely because of this they hate children a narcissist is a child it's a person whose growth and personal development had been stunted in early childhood and never never grew up it's a peter pan it's two years old it's three years old he's easily competes with toddlers you know right second second thing is a nuisance so the narcissist regards children as encroaching on his time on his freedom on his liberty and encumbering him with obligations and responsibilities duties and chores which narcissists detest so children become a nuisance and narcissists can become very aggressive toward children in trying to neutralize the nuisance value of children the third thing is sources of supply as the children grow up a bit when they become like adolescents anywhere between ages 10 and 18 they become sources of narcissistic supply they begin to begin to adulate the father to emulate the father to idolize the father to give the father attention i'm saying father because but but it's it's equally applicable to narcissistic mothers yes so at that point the children suddenly are no longer a nuisance they're no longer a competition they are sources of supply up and the narcissist is all over them and he appropriates them and he renders them he converts them into extensions of himself he begins to treat them not as independent personalities or individuals but as extensions so he doesn't allow them to separate and to become individuals he kind of hams them in he suffocates them and they can't recover from that the alienating parent is always hoping oh maybe when they become 18 they'll come and realize what's happened there's no point of return from this am i correct the damage the damage is life long yes and then the fourth which leads which leads to the fourth point to the fourth point and a fourth point is typical of psychopaths the first three these these are narcissists the fourth point is a psychopath the psychopath regards children as a tool or an instrument or a weapon actually he weaponizes children he weapon or she yeah weaponize weaponize children to induce to induce damage to inflict damage and induce pain in the the person who had frustrated him which happens to be the spouse the ex-spouse or the or the intimate partner or whatever so the children become weaponized that that's the psychopathic thing usually and that's deliberate that our psychopath knows what he's doing there absolutely yes it's a strategy it's a strategy there's long-term planning and deliberation which go into it there there is brainwashing it's a process called entraining by the way I encourage you encourage you to watch my recent dialogue with Richard Granon on the topic of entraining so the psychopath brainwashes the children and trains them and and converts them into weapons guided missiles they become guided missiles absolutely cruise missiles aimed exclusively at the intimate partner so parental alienation is real rather parental alienation syndrome is contested I'm a professor of psychology and I'm taught I'm told to not teach it because it's wrong but the phenomenon of parental alienation is real it's made it may not be a syndrome but there are parents who deliberately intentionally with forethought and malice turn children against the spouse against the the former partner this is a well documented from well you're a professor of psychology from a psychological perspective how does this happen in their desire to turn against the other parent is this something that you mentioned they're like child children their brain hasn't developed is it mental illness because the normal person wouldn't think that way there are two two aspects to your question there's the question of why why does the parent do that the psychopathic parent or narcissistic parent like why do they do that and then there's a question of why does the child do that right because because a child does become a weapon the child for example develops extreme aversion to the other parent the child begins to attack the other parent indiscriminately the child refuses to listen to countervailing arguments and facts the child inhabits a fantastic space generated by the alienating parent and within this fantastic space the child refuses to exit this space so consider any alternatives so there is a tacit collaboration between the child and the alienating parent and we should ask ourselves why because some of the children are not that young you know some of them are 15 or 16 and they're capable of critical thinking and yet they suspended so there are two two very important I think perspectives or angles if I may the alienating parent is usually a narcissist or a psychopath who has suffered an injury a mental injury narcissistic injury or and they never forgive they hold a grudge they have narcissistic rage they want to absolutely eradicate eliminate and if possibly execute the source of injury that the source of the frustration they consider themselves godlike and any challenge to their grandiosity is perceived to be in as inexcusable unforgettable and unforgivable and worthy of the most extreme punishment disproportionate punishment and children are the perfect way to inflict the ultimate pain on a parent and so weaponizing the children is a perfect strategy so it has to do with narcissistic injury and the classic reaction known as narcissistic rage with a psychopath it's more goal oriented the psychopath usually wants something from the other from the parent from the other from the co-parent so the narcissist would say okay I'm going to turn the children against you unless you sign off our common property to me or I'm going to turn the children against you unless you have sex with me so the psychopath is much more goal oriented the narcissist is not goal oriented there's no way to bargain with the narcissist to placate the narcissist to make him forgive whatever imaginary infringement the narcissist is held bent on destroying you because you had caused him injury and he's in a state of unbridled rage so this is this is the parental side now what about the child what does a child collude and collaborate in this because the child is in pain the child is in pain and the child the child's world in a case of divorce the child's world had disintegrated and had been rendered meaningless the child seeks meaning the child needs to the child needs to make sense of what had happened and so the only way to make sense of what had happened is a morality play where one of the parents is the devil and the other parent is the angel so now everything makes sense suddenly the world is again meaningful suddenly everything is imbued with sense direction meaning and everything falls into place and justice can be restored by punishing the demonic parent somehow so it's a morality play we call this splitting it's a splitting defense splitting defense mechanism means that you what we call decotomous thinking everything bad everything good someone is all bad someone is all good someone is white someone is black so the child says this parent is all bad all black all all all wrong this parent is all good all white all true and this is called splitting it's very common in adolescence because adolescents are narcissists actually the period of adolescence involves a very heightened degree of narcissism so these are narcissists in fact and narcissists engage in splitting habitually so it's very easy to turn a child against the parent by leveraging the child's narcissism and encouraging fostering and egging on the splitting defense and then the child says oh my god now understand everything now understand everything that happened my father is the devil he is demonic he is evil he is corrupt he's a horrible person and my mother is the ultimate victim or vice versa doesn't matter it's the ultimate victim and now all falls into place and I can rest in peace so to speak or at least sleep peacefully because I can wake up in the morning and I know whose side I should be on the side of the good and the angels may I moment hold on hold on hold on Mary you're watching the Andy Martin show where a special presentation uh tonight with Sam Mackinen Mary Kovacs is along and uh in our remaining moments so all right Mary go ahead uh Sam I just want you to know that um I married an alienated child he was alienated at nine months never to see a father again so his mom remarried at 14 after 14 he was discarded in the family and he went on to becoming a really serious bully but anyways um at 25 we found his father but all he heard was that his father was a monster growing up and when we found his father two months before we were to meet him was murdered after that I was severely punished for bringing him false hope bringing his father to to light you know like bringing him to his mind and stuff so for punishment he did the exact same thing he turned around I knew every every move an alienator would do to keep the family his he wouldn't you know wouldn't even let me answer the door for his parents his mom and his new stepfather so you know dealing with a alienated child adult child is so dangerous um mentally emotionally psychologically they mess you up because you get blamed for everything their mother did or whoever the alienating parent is so I highly recommend that parent alienation be uh more more um open out to the world to the courts to everyone to understand that they're psychologically abusing young children to grow to be psychopaths right the problem Mary is a lot of people and I've seen it for the year and a half we've been doing shows on parental alienation the problem is most people like oh it doesn't it doesn't concern me so I'm not interested in this if I'm not affected by it you know all the oh we owe it that's worldwide well it doesn't concern me it's a social issue but I wanted to ask Sam about it will eventually it it will eventually when it can be hit right we've got a lot of work to do to get it there but I wanted to ask Sam about this the narcissist psychopath hates and demonic like you mentioned but this is so you know um the alienating parent is the one that's fooled all the way along because if the narcissist or psychopath can do this alienate the children from the mother or the father vice versa that person never loved the person that they had children with in the beginning am I right Sam there was no love or empathy there from the beginning on this process love love and hate in psychology at least in the science of psychology uh flip flip sides of the same coin we call this ambivalence it's very easy to transition from love to hate and um given enough frustration and and anger people do transition from love to hate however I agree with you I agree with you that this alienating parents or parents who resort to such strategies especially the ones who do so deliberately and intentionally are people who are incapable of true love they're incapable of true love they misinterpret other emotions and other behaviors as love for example they misinterpret dependency as love they misinterpret manipulation as love they misinterpret emotional blackmail as love they sometimes misinterpret mere presence as love just being there is kind of love so they don't understand love they've never experienced love they are love challenge definitely I would like to respond to something Mary had said actually okay children who are alienated get emotionally invested in the alienating narrative is alienating narrative the narrative offered by the alienating parents helps them to make sense of the world reduces their anxiety and allows them to function so children get invested in this narrative this process is called catexis they get affected in the narrative later on in life it's a struggle to get a more but to obtain a more balanced view to hear the other side to talk to the to the other parent the child is already enmeshed and embedded and invested in the narrative that's the first thing the second thing is that children with parents who have gone through a process of alienation would tend would try very hard to find a substitute set of parents because who wants to have two parents who are at conflict who wants to have two parents who keep fighting with each other hate each other's guts turn turn you against each other and no one wants such parents so these people go through life later on when they grow up they go through life looking for substitute parents surrogate parents so if it's a if it's a boy the boy will grow up and as an adult he will be looking for a mummy he will never be able to have adult relationships he will try to convert his intimate partner into a mother figure a maternal figure and vice versa for a girl she will try she will have daddy issues because they will be focused not on having full-fledged mature adult relationships they will be focused on healing their internal wounds by finding substitute mother or substitute father that's the second thing and the third thing is whatever is done to use a child you're going to do to others when you're an adult the narcissist was not allowed to develop boundaries as a child people become narcissists because as children they were not allowed to separate from mommy mommy didn't allow them to become individuals mommy was selfish or over burying or depressive or absent or we call it the dead mother not good enough mother so these narcissists were not allowed as children to separate and individually become separate individuals so when they team up with an intimate partner later in life they don't allow her to separate and become an individual whatever is done to you as a child you're going to do in the future to others if you're alienated as a child you're going to reenact these dynamics in your own family absolutely that'll come from the form of control isn't that Sam control you will control the person and not allow them to be an individual yes you will try to assimilate the person to merge with the person to fuse with the person we call it symbiosis you will try to assimilate the person to make that person disappear because if the if the person in your life if you're intimate partner is an independent autonomous entity she can walk out on you she can abandon you the same way your mother had done you don't want this to happen so you want to convert her into an avatar a representation an inner internal object an image a symbol not a real person and whenever she shows any sign that she's a real person of being a real person you're going to repress her and punish her because she should not be a real person because it threatens you so it's it's what people parents who alienate children who turn them against the other parent they're damaging these children for life because these children are going to reenact this family these family dynamics in their own family later on it's inevitable it's inevitable so what's your own outlook on Mary Mary you're on to the stand Sam sorry you were cross talking and Mary we gotta watch our time here otherwise we're not going to be able to upload it on our show tonight so just one quick question tomorrow when the children get put on the stand will that damage them even more the adult children yes of course forcing the child to take a stance or to adopt one of the parents as the preferred parent and so on and so forth is compulsive damage compulsive damage can they suffer can they suffer psychosis or anything not psychosis psychosis is very extreme and but they get damaged in in attachment their attachment capabilities are damaged they develop insecure attachment styles and then they undermine their own sabotage their own relationships because they try to force the family the the dynamic of the family of origin onto the family they are creating and they ruin everything time and again it's we call it repetition compulsion they keep repeating the same pattern over and over and even if they are aware that they are making these mistakes they can't help themselves it's compulsive it's who they are when you it's who the child is you're not just affecting behavior or trait you're changing the child transforming the child and yes of course there's therapy but why should your child go to therapy for the rest of his life it's a horrible thing to do to your child you know I have been 44 years I've been going to therapy well is that is that recommended is that is that what you want for your child to attend therapy for 44 years but it just keeps reoccurring I don't go daily it's just you know year after year something happens you also you also I don't know you well but you you also sound to me like you keep repeating the same dysfunctional patterns in your relationships and I'm sure that you had been conditioned to do so I only had two okay well two is very Sam's right you were with the narcissist the second time around two yeah well there's no third you know 27 years for one 27 months never say never just never say never but Sam Sam you are self-progressed narcissist were you evil and demonic at one point in your life you say you were what made you reverse course from prison prison I went to prison and then when I exited prison I said no more because I lost everything I was a very very very very rich guy seriously I lost all my all my money I lost my wife I didn't have a family like I didn't have children but I lost my wife my my all my money a reputation I was very well known in Israel and so I lost my reputation and everything I said no more I've hit rock bottom I said no more I'm gonna I'm gonna study what's wrong with me and then I'm gonna teach the rest of the world and I was the first ever in 1995 to describe the phenomenon of pathological narcissism online and I coined the phrase narcissistic abuse and then I taught many generations for 90 nine years I had the only website on narcissistic abuse anywhere and I had the only support so I taught I taught generations of people about and then they carried it on and so this is all my my brain child it's not because I wanted to atone I'm not pretending I didn't want to atone or anything but it wasn't working for me I said narcissism is a seriously bad strategy you know it sucks I'm not gonna do this again and so I I chose to obtain supply attention and so on in socially acceptable ways and by helping others I think that's a solution for narcissism to teach them to obtain supply because they can't be remedied they can't be cured they can't be healed it's too late for narcissists if someone has been seriously damaged in childhood so but you can redirect narcissism make it a force for good redirect this energy I'm proof I'm living proof of this I've redirected my seriously negative energy and I've rendered it seriously positive I've transformed the lives of millions why not every narcissist can do this you know yeah now narcissists need to hit rock bottom right like you do and psychopath yeah because otherwise if times are good then it's not going to happen very true yes unfortunately that's unfortunate but it's true as an empath I hit rock bottom too I was falsely arrested with the prison twice I lost everything everything including my children I am here today 16 years later advocating to prevent people from falling into the same situation so I teach people what you teach people but I teach them in an empathetic way so you know um there's hope for us yeah I think I think all in all yes I think there's hope for for personal transformation people say prison is a bad idea because you go in innocent you come out the criminal not yeah not really no I think you go on you go in with a criminal mindset you've come out a worse criminal than you had been yeah but if you go in with a different mindset and you let prison do its work it can be transformative I'm living and that's what happens yes that's so true I went in as an innocent person came out fighting even twice the innocent how long were you in prison for Sam just a year but it was a crucial year during this year I'd written malignancy of love narcissism revisited which is the first textbook ever for narcissistic abuse I'd written many other books in prison I'd written a total of seven one of them short fiction was published and won Israel's number one literary prize so this year has been productive transformative prison is the best thing that ever happened to me honestly me too me too and I'm innocent but I wrote a book too it'll be out in the spring a journey of love I'm going to send you a copy Sam when it's uh when I get my book released when Andy and um so grateful that you're here today thank you Sam yeah thank you we are one final question yes we are running out of time one final question what is the narcissist then psychopath I see that in my family why do they need to alienate their own family in the sense that a brother will alienate their sister's children why do it in the family type of thing they don't make any distinctions between family or not family they have no emotional attachments to anyone to anybody yeah yeah they alienate because it's a manipulative techniques technique divide and rule or they want to obtain some goal or they want to obtain attention drama queens you know they create drama so they are self-focused to the exclusion of all others and that you happen to be family it's your bad luck it's nothing to do with them and they alienate your whole family they won't call you there's no contact they call you in contempt in any case narcissists and psychopaths hold everyone in contempt you're inferior by definition so they consent they can descend to talk to you sometimes grandparents yeah grandparents cousins uncles my mother hasn't seen my children just as long as me it's a pandemic it's like the virus the virus doesn't make any allowances you know it's a pandemic it's a virus it's a mental that's right exactly yes and we are we gotta we gotta go marry our time is up thank you my wine my wine is is up also so good time we've been watching the in the martin show with mary covax and sam macadam professor of psychology and an expert on narcissism psychopaths and we'll invite you back again sam thanks so much for being here thank you for having me i appreciate you thank you both of you thank you okay take care i'm gonna send you to record this one okay thank you bye