 Over the past 20-30 years we have seen the human population had to go over the past 15 because it was in the human population door and out second of in. We are seeing pressures of natural habitats increase over time The reason I went to that side in the room is because although the cost policy is one of the contributing factors I didn't consider overall that it's the main factor that would be soに ges он. It is indeed being underserved. So, ond y fawr, yma'r fawr yn gweithio y cyflwyno ynglyn â Llywodraeth, y fawr yn gweithio y cyflwyno yma ychydig am y cyflwyno a'r ddweud. Rwy'n gweld yn y fawr, oherwydd yw ymwintol. Ond, mae'n holl o'ch ffwrdd i'r bobl, a mae'n holl o'ch fwrdd i'r bobl i'r bobl, wrth gwrs, mae'n holl o'ch fawr yn gofyn. Fy holl o'ch fawr yn roeddiol o'ch fawr o'ch gweithiol, Ond ydym yn gweld o'r rhaid i'r rhaglen yn y dyredig? Mae y Llywodraeth yn ymdweithio pofytu yw hynny'n rhan o'r ffordd gweithio wedi gael 40% o'r arlyf o'r rhan o'r rhan o ddechrau. Byddwn i ddweud o'r rhan o'r rhan o'r rhan o'r ffordd a'u rhan o'r rhan o'r rhan o'r rhan o'r rhan o'r ffordd? Mae'r ffordd gweithi o'r rhan o'r ffordd? Mae'n oeddiad pwyd yn y gweithredu iawn. Mae'r ffordd yn y gweithredu iawn, y gallwn i'r ffhrig yw'r cyfrin yw'r pheidiwhau. Roeddwn i'w bwysig i ddechrau. Mae cyfrin yn rhoi'r cerddio'r bywm, bydd yn y ddweud â'r bwrddamolai Lleif, yn y UK. Btw, ei ddechrau yn siwr, mae wnaid i'r cyfrin yn dda erbyn yn iawn i fod y diolch, nid bodyn ei ddweud ar y llawdd. Fyrwg cyfrin yn y bwyllwedd, nad yw'n rhoi na'r rhaid o gennyd mewn bwysig i ddechrau'r cyfrin yn fawr yn fwyllwyr, yn ei meddwl i roedd ymlynedd, ar gyfer bod yn ddweud i fynd o'r modd. Ar y dyfosermi yn y rydym ni'n ddechrau, a dwi'n dweud sy'n mynd i'n ddildig i chi'n defnyddio'r relin, mae'r rhai oedd oedd y ddweud o'r hunain yn y gallu'r hawdd, a dyfosermi ddod o bobl efallai'n gywir, ond yn ddull i chi'n defnyddio'r ysbytidol ac oedd o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r lleid. Felly, yn y pethau'r ffair, mae'n ddatgwch yn ddweud cymwyno yma'n ddechrau i ddweud. A wnaeth y byd yn ddweud yn 50 oed, ond rwy'n mynd i'w meddwl yma, ond ond mae'n ddweud yn ddweud yn ddweud, mae'n ddweud yn ddweud'n ddweud yn ddweud. Nid yw'n ddweud yn ddweud, ond ddweud yn y rhydd, ddweud yn ddweud yn ddweud, ddweud yn ddweud. Mae'r ffordd yn fwy o'r ffordd yn gydych yn gweithio'r amddangos. Yn 50 y bydd yn gweithio'r ffordd yn gweithio'r community, ac mae'n rhaid i'n meddwl. Mae'n gweithio'r amdân, mae'n mynd i'n cael y gwaith, ac mae'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'r ffordd yn gweithio'r amddangos. Mae'r rhain ffordd yn gweithio'r ffordd yn gweithio'r un hwnnw yng nghymru. Parmoyl is in this multi-billion dollar industry, and they throw a few hundred thousand, definitely a million, at conservation, and that just greaves their image enough so that it can carry on and converts your natural foils into all-parm. But if you have a squaggy loysiw of land in the tropics that has enough rainfall, Parmoyl is the crop for you, because it produces more, value more product per unit area than any other crop. And when your hands, my colleague from Grasp, who's also at the meeting in Salo, but he's staying to the end, and I feel this is going to talk to you. When your hands gets here, I'm sure he'll give you the rundown on the study that Grasp funded on the economics of maritime conservation and sustainable forest management. It was published at the end of last year. It was a paper, a booklet, really, published by UNEP at the request of the Indonesian government. And the conclusion there was not only is Parmoyl the most profitable crop you can grow in a tropical area with enough rainfall, but that it can be more profitable to leave the forest natural if you can trade the carbon at the current price. And if carbon prices go up as they're predicted to, then that obviously looks even more profitable. And if you start to get more ecosystem services monetised, that is everyone on the planet, as I'm sure you're aware, benefits from tropical rainforests. The way we benefit varies according to the distance we are from them. If you live in New York, or in Jakarta, or in Alachariah, your benefits are from tropical forests. And the role of apes in those forests, as indeed elephants, and childrens, and taekwyrs, and other large mammals, the fruit eating animals play a very important role. Some of you will have heard about this ad nauseam for a long time. And you haven't been seeing it as I would back on about it to you too. The role of the fruit eating mammals is essentially in a tropical forest because in tropical forests, unlike those in the temperate parts of the world, between 75 and 95% of the tree species have their seeds dispersed by animals. A few have been dispersed by wind, some by water, flooding seeds and so on. But a large proportion, depending on which forest you're in as to what that proportion is, the vast majority have been quite animals. And I would say this in the C4, which is a bad thing because I'm not a forester. But the principle is that this is a kind of evolution between fruit eating animals and fruit trees. And with that point of view, the reason why apes are important to red discussions and why, in my opinion, some of the vast sums of money that we've been told about and put on the table for red should be going to apes conservation. Because the forests need the apes as much as the apes need the forests. And the drawback, and I hope this will be reflected in the opportunity we have to put out for this meeting some guidelines from policy makers, the drawback is that people who are thinking about forest conservation, particularly now in tropical forests, are valued for the carbon storage and the sequestration that they provide in the world. They're valued as a collection of trees. I had an exchange at Forest Day 3 or 4, I think it was, where a carbon scientist, when I asked from the floor whether they were concerned about the relevant to the forest, she said her job was to measure the carbon and decide how much the forest stores and how that changes over time. There's more carbon or less carbon, we'll be able to have that on the forest days. And my response was, well, that's like weighing in carbon. If you weigh a car and then you take the penis out, the car weighs almost the same. But it doesn't work. And if you take the animals out of a forest, if it's a forest that depends on how you foresee this verse, then the next generation of trees will be affected. And you'll see, as studies are beginning to show, as people are studying forests that have been overhunted, the animals that have been removed from the forest, the recruitment trees is changing. So the species composition will change. Now some botanists see a correlation between seed size and wood density. And a denser tree is going to store more carbon than a light tree. That's why being a bold, hardwood tree is small so it's more carbon than a case that is very thriving in seven years and then harvested. So solid dense old trees have lots of carbon, it's been a long time to get there, so it's standing at least one. At least one is a store of thousands of years of carbon stored on the ground. But in an old forest where the big trees are up to a thousand years old, that's been stored in carbon too. And you can't replace that forest with a new, young forest that expected to have the same amount of carbon per square kilometre. And if that forest is in the tropics and depends on animals, and particularly those tree species which have large seeds obviously need a large animal because small fruit trees can't eat large seeds. You mean apes and elephants. There's another role that apes play in a forest which has not, to my knowledge, been carefully studied, but is self-eminent. When you watch an ape, I'm not saying I'm going to be my visual ape here. I'm not superstitious, so I'm not worried about putting it inside. If you imagine this as a rainforest tree, if it's a young tree, small enough for an ape to climb and build a nest in, what happens when the ape builds a nest in steps? They break the branches and form a tight little ball which is a comfortable place for an ape to spend the night. But that of course creates a light gap in the canopy. And if you have a population of apes doing this all over the forest every day, every evening, they build a nest, they build branches for a tight little ball. That has a big impact on the structure of the canopy. For one thing, it creates little bundles of dead wood and leaves in the top of the trees. Now, to my knowledge, we want to study the role of that place in the distribution and number of wood-boring insects. But beetles need dead wood and in most forests, there isn't that much dead wood because it's all alive. So you've got animals here that are creating little pockets of dead wood and decomposition is going on up there. Probably with different species that's going on down there. So in terms of biodiversity, apes are doing that. But in terms of the health of the forest, four apes builds a nest. It sleeps in the nest and digests the previous day's food and usually during the night or firstly in the morning they relieve themselves over the side of the nest and the seeds fall right on the other tree where they build the nest. The nest has just created a light gap in the canopy. So you've got seeds, which have been scarified by the chewing, have been partially digested so the exterior coating has been reduced to the point where the moisture can get in and it can germinate. The seed lies on the floor in a ball of dome which then decomposes and produces an isopropylizer and it's under a gap in the canopy so the light comes down and feeds that seed. And that's why people have studied germination rates and seedling survival of trees whose seeds have passed through anemones compared to those that have just fallen for under the parent plant find that much higher rates of germination on the seeds have been chewed and dispersed. And of course with large animals it goes some distance. So that problem of seeds falling not very far from the parent plant is solved by the use of anemones. So you take those anemones out of the forest you're going to have a serious problem. One of the big issues in red and one of the reasons why red is so slowly up the ground and it's still so controversial is forests don't seem very permanent. If you can boil those of forests within a matter of months so you can, people do it still I think how permanent is a carbon storm? So what if you say okay with a red the payment is not for the carbon in the forest the payment is for a promise to keep the forest and it's carbon intact for 50 or 100 years. That's what you're paying for. You're paying for the storage of the carbon, not the actual carbon itself. And if you're paying for that storage you want to be sure that when all trees die and decompose that carbon that's locked up in the leaves and branches and roots doesn't just go into the atmosphere you want it to be captured by new trees. And if the new trees depend on seed dispersal then you need to have a healthy forest. This is why in a lot of my lectures over the past few years the line-out making is that if tropical rainforests of Amazonia, Africa and Southeast Asia are essential to the health of the planet and there seems to be general consensus like that is the case and if apes are essential to the health of the forest then protecting apes is not just a matter of all their other species and their mother-likeers and their interests to study in and their fascinating intelligence, social beings all those are very good reasons and those are the reasons why many of us are involved in studying in the first place because they are fascinating. But if there are also keystone species in a habitat which is of global importance then we should be taking them more seriously for that reason. So I hope during these days we'll be thinking a little bit about the function of apes playing in those forests. So for the people who are living in the community in the forest, the abundance of fish and mammals and birds and fruits and other resources around them the decline in apes or other endangered species that leads governments to say we want to create a national park and exclude people actually creates poverty. We take a community that had everything the community would want except perhaps lots of money and modern gadgets and gizmos but they were living a good life a life that humans have been living for a millennia and suddenly something comes along and says no you've got to move to this side of the arbitrary line that we're going to draw and on this side it's just a nature and suddenly you don't have access to those resources so you have been made poor by conservation. Is there any surprise a community like that feel pretty nulled about what conservation does? That's not always the case but there are still cases of communities who have not been compensated for losing their traditional lands and because their traditional lands go back beyond that culture's option of writing there's no records and it's very hard for them to prove other than through oral tradition that's why they all lived. It's very interesting seeing what happens when you bring modern technology into those sorts of communities. Grasp co-sponsors have worked with the forest people's programme in Cameroon and they use one of these data maps to go around with the pigments in the forest this is a tree that fruits at this time of the year and this is about a cast of millers feed and we have lots of nutritious cast of millers from this tree they went round the forest and what they found was that the parts of the forest that were most prized and valuable to the big business were the parts of the forest where the highest energy of goronos and chimpanzees so the traditional use of the forest was entirely compatible with the healthy forests with chimpanzees but what happens when pigments' skills are utilised by a businessman who wants to establish being a talent is that suddenly their use of the forest becomes unsustainable or worse still they bring in other hunters from town the timber company comes in opens up the forest and once there's a road network in the forest anyone will be getting into the middle of the forest and this vehicle is coming back and forth so tucking amongst the wood on the vehicle if you've not seen the photographs and maybe seen some of the interviews of the drivers and the drivers are driving from the forest carrying logs to the sawmill and they'll be exported to Europe or Japan or wherever the furniture factory is and the drivers say well look, if you're driving on the road and you see a 20 dollar bill on the side of the road you'll stop and begin over in your pocket and to then drive past a dead animal that some hunter has stuck a mistake beside the road it's a 20 dollar bill you can buy it from the hunter for a small price take it to the city and sell it for a higher price because as was observed by one of our African colleagues it's people in the cities with money and pockets who can afford to pay premium price for bushbeats that generates that train and once something becomes a commercial commodity almost always what happens if you look at the history of fisheries the history of exploitation of wild mammals wild birds once it becomes a commodity and the market is limitless a natural population can be which is fast enough and it starts to decline and at some point it won't go extinct you've all seen the pictures of passenger pigeons darkening the sky in the 19th century in America and people just shot bill in the air shot dead birds with four out of the air and thought they could never run out of passenger pigeons until the last one died in the sea so however many there were to start with if the offtake is so high that it's unsustainable that population will decline unless some self control comes into it and humans are technically bad at self control we'll try and restrain ourselves but self-restraint is not one of us on these points because we tend to go for what's good for us and not necessarily what's good for the whole community or for the whole planet this matters a lot with apes because you all aren't sure very well they have a very slow life cycle slow reproductive rating and if with orangutans you've got a childhood in the last seven or eight years and a female is only going to produce a very small number of offspring in her life African apes are a little shorter childhood but still a very small percentage offtake of an ape population will send into decline and therefore once apes become a commodity whether it's for five babies or for dead apes, trophies, skulls hands, whatever the commercial value of the bit of the ape is if it becomes a commodity and there's a limit that's marked then numbers will decline and we've seen it happen and everything that's going to stop that is not doing something to the apes most conservation workers, I'm sure you're aware is not doing stuff to animals somebody else, Tony helped individual animals in these events but most of it is keeping humans back from doing the stuff that we do that is donating to them and if those humans are in poverty and they don't have other options then what are you going to say to them don't do that, it will stop or don't do that because I can offer you something better this is one of the things that I'm very much in use here because the guerrilla organisation did a very innovative thing when it first got underway in the UK it was a separate organisation it talked to the people that lived around with the guerrilla workers and asked them what they thought were the priorities and the sort of things that they wanted was a supply of water people walked into the park where there was a forest and shade and rain and streams to get water and so putting in water systems to catch rain water school roofs and that sort of thing helped better agricultural practices what's a guerrilla organisation doing teaching people about organic farming well, it does because it increases the price, it increases the output from the fields and beekeeping beekeeping is a great thing to teach someone because there are all sorts of things about the company and these go out and do positive things and they're in poverty and flowers, so giving people alternative livelihoods this is something that WCS is doing in Nigeria, they're actually targeting coaches in 2009, some of you know I was the ambassador for the UN Year of the Guerrilla and one of the things I did was to travel across Africa by public transport where it was possible talking to people so I talked to a student on the bus in Uganda and you can see some of these interviews online if you've got the time the little film called State of the Guerrilla Journal and the student on the bus is called Brian he said what the hell on the radio that it was a year of the guerrilla he said it's like someone walking up to Brian today is the world day for hands and for him it was like this somehow and a stupid concept but then he thought about it and realised that perhaps it was the limit and that's particularly important for in Gambins to realise that because in the past 30 years guerrillas and their habitats have gone from being a drain on the country's economy just another cost to protect a forest that nobody really sees the value of to be in the top 3 foreign exchange learners of the country and I'm sure that the Indonesian and Malaysian people here are aware of the importance of guerrilla tourism but I don't know I was asking someone on the plane yesterday to tell us about Jakarta whether she knew how much people paid for a ticket to go and see the family amount of guerrillas and she said $100 $500 for one hour to go and see the family of guerrillas and the reason is $500 it starts at $500, it starts with $80 and it's been creeping up every couple of years since because there are enough people who will pay their amount and people in the industry say actually you could probably put it up to $1,000 and you still sell most of your permits but it would make it unreachable for people to go and experience that but then something in guerrillas monetary value but guerrilla tourism and the Jim & Z tourism which is falling as well there are definite drawbacks to it it's not a system that can be applied everywhere probably the origin of tourism is to pay that sort of money for every population of apes to generate enough money to fund their conservation so many mountain guerrillas have been lucky but in that first they had an extraordinary woman looking after them Diolch yn fawr, which is where I came into this old story when I first went to Rwanda in 1976 it was to work as Diolch's assistant at the research centre and at that time guerrilla tractors were basically farmers who were diolch yn fawr they were often barefoot but sometimes they'd get a second hand paraboot from one of the researchers that was leaving they were wearing rags there were their work clothes and obviously they didn't want to put their best clothes on to work in the forest but it wasn't exactly a career it was something that they did on the side to get a great deal of money to supplement their farming you could have run for today and this was a wonderful thing during this year of guerrilla journey one of the interviews I did was one of the guerrilla guides Edward he was standing there in his uniform and he'd been doing for 15, 20 years or so he's a fairly wealthy guy and surrounding him were little lads boys from the surrounding villages now in 1976 when I was walking up to the park little lads were saying can I help carry you back and I thought she said oh yes but it can be a thank you and I was a bit surprised when they wanted money for her because I was that green in arriving in Africa for the first time but now these little lads are looking at people like Edward and people like Tony and that career aspiration is I want to go to school I want to be a guerrilla guy or a veteran and some of you got guerrillas as being not just a main state of the national economy not just an employer but indirectly generating lots of jobs but seeing career paths for the next generation and that really is quite inspiring because other kids just across the border in the DRC being brought up in armed rebel camps where their parents go out and kill people or mutilate people or they don't kill everybody they just kill a few to terrorise because there are still armed militias living in the forest in the DRC exploiting natural resources mining killing animals to feed their miners some of the miners are forfe labour some of them are there voluntarily to make money but it's a very unsatisfactory state of affairs and those kids are growing up in communities where violence and human rights abuses have been weak on everyday practice that's what their parents do and you see what sort of role model is there for me as compared to the more inspiring ones in the better organised sites they're buying so poverty and aid conservation one of the things I'm trying to get across to people who see rural tourism or chimpanzee tourism potentially orangutan tourism although it's never taken off in a big way I have to say when I first brought tourists to Indonesia to see orangutans because I ran the trustee of the orangutan foundation in UK and we came the first time with the film crew to make a documentary about the work we do there but I then came with tourists and some of these tourists have actually been with me on trips in Africa to see the rows and chimpanzees there so they knew the kind of money you have to pay to get tickets to see a great aid and we get to Tangin Putti National Park and this was some years ago I don't know what the current price is someone from Tangin Putti can you tell me how much the permit to go to the park and to see orangutans is now so when I first went there to see the tourism I think you've moved out about 20x 30 cents one of which actually went to orangutans went to the government, to Jakarta so even now it is a more class experience to walk through a rainforest to see a shaggy ape planting through the trees and I fear you are understanding it so if you are working in one of these rural parks your revenue receipts would be thousands of times more and yet the experience is not that dissimilar and the people who are really interested would pay more so one of the things that we might discuss in the next two days is how the orangutan viewing experience could be made more special or would make someone in addition to the $7 that the regulatory was paying that would make them want to pay another $100 a person is called a tool by one of your experts who can explain everything about orangutans that might do it so some extra special thing because that way your park would start to generate more and you might kill more of your costs and it might bring in a much different kind of tourism so I think great ape tourism is never going to be mass tourism most of us are people who are going to be able to see apes having said that there are places where that does happen and I am thinking in some of the second log the orangutan viewing is done in a small patch of forest which is stocked with really too many orangutans from the forest of support they are dependent on provisioning of food and every day the visitors pay a modest amount I think a little more than in those but what they like as much is what we are viewing to stand on a wall walk and look across at orangutans being failed and for most people that's fine but even there are a way that if you give an option of a $100 special tour where the vet in place or some other specialist talked about their work and what they were doing people would pay that because the fascination for apes is part of the reason why we are here but what I would like to stress is that even apes that are not being visited by tourists therefore don't pay to have any monetary value they are part of an ecosystem which now is being run at times and whether it is through its ability to store and sequester to store carbon or whether it is through the rainfall generation again some people have seen the graphite gas sometimes used of global rainfall where you can clearly see how the evaporative evaporative transformation in rain forests can drive the weather systems that water the rest of the world and if you look at the way that rainfall from Africa comes across and joins the rainfall and sanitation and it goes across westwards across the Atlantic to join the Amazon and it sends off streams of rain across North America walking the coal belt in the Midwest across the Atlantic to Britain and Europe everywhere there are farmers dependent on rain they should be considering how to protect tropical forests and they are not I often use water as an example if you are a drinker and some of you may not be a drinker but either way if the the drink that you enjoy comes from a fruit it is a grape or a mango it depends on the rain and much of the world's water vapor is travelling in the atmosphere because of tropical rain forests there are some regression scientists who have been proposing this idea of the forest being a global one people are talking about this should be a global prize for this concept that the rain forests in the moment are pumping the water around the world when we think of water we almost invariably think of the liquid form because it is not enough of the frozen form because it is melting as temperatures rise but it is water vapor which is how most water moves around the world and if you look at what the evapotranspiration from tropical forests does it pumps water into the atmosphere in Oxford there is an organisation called the Global Calibre Programme and they estimate that a square kilometre of tropical forest is pumping into the atmosphere 10 times the amount of water in a square kilometre of the ocean just because the ocean has got one surface even if it is a bit choppy whereas tropical forest has got trillions of leaves each one of which has a stirrata which is pumping out water vapor and although rain forests receive a lot of rain a lot of it stays up there and moves on to water membrane periods so both locally and globally are dead to tropical forests and we are not paying that debt we are reducing the area of forest and increasing the amount of CO2 that goes into the atmosphere and that is why forests are so important to the carbon discussions and why I hope increasingly we recognise that the forests we are talking about include the apes so in terms of bringing relief to poverty-stricken communities if the money is going to come from northern industrial countries or companies as an offset against their greenhouse gas emissions because it is going to take them decades to change their technology and move to a low carbon industrial future then for a short window of opportunity we have potentially billions of dollars which if spent wisely could help us to achieve the millennial development goals and the targets of the world set itself to reduce poverty and improve health care and all that education and help a lot of biodiversity that is a huge potential and one of the drawbacks is of course that whenever anyone starts talking about billions of dollars it attracts people who are more interested in billions of dollars than they are in the goals of the people living the money and we are still seeing how the mechanism for red funding will go and I hope that some of the people who have been working on these pilot projects for a particularly if they are involving great aid, a happy task will have something concrete to tell us because the hope was that there will be information from pilot projects some time ago and it is still very slow in coming but we have an opportunity here we have a room full of people and interesting people from many walks of life and different communities and I think different disciplines there might be a rather strong emphasis on people who are studying primaries but there are also people who have other related skills and they do say that if you throw a bunch of people enough interesting people into a room and give more of a typewriter they could by the end of it write lots of Shakespeare we are not asking for that what we are asking for is policy guidelines so if you as a group of people we could influence the policy and if there is one thing that politicians need they don't always take it but they do need it so if we as a group can shape our ideas and give some clear indications I would think this would be a success for two days I am really grateful for the opportunity to kick things off like this I hope that my roundings haven't been too tedious some of the ideas that we've touched upon if I need poverty the role of apes in forests whether or not they are going to be visited by tourists I didn't go into the big debate about the threats that tourism is bringing to apes I'm sure it's only a little personal to say about that during the next two days but I understand that we still haven't gone from our left so I'd like to throw the floor open I've got some ideas around have any of the things that I've said on the stories I've told make you think rubbish or yes I can give an example of that because now would be a great time to chip in and make it less of a monologue and more of a multi-logic two lights here thank you very much for that nice presentation what I've picked out is the role of property conservation and the role of conservation or soft property conservation now, after having said that after having said the role of conservation in property recreation and the role of in property and the role of what do you think the biggest problem why are we still having a challenge in conservation of bread in a country where we can use conservation to address the poverty issues what do you think is the problem why are we not there I wasn't fortunate enough to be with the first workshop that was held to discuss this but I understand that there was a clear distinction between countries that all they have left is fragments of forests perhaps they value those forests more