 Welcome to the 11th meeting in 2017 of the Standards Procedures and Public Appointments Committee. Can I remind everyone to put present to switch all electronic devices to silent as they may interfere with broadcasting? We have an apology this morning from Tom Arthur MSP. If we could move to agenda item 1, which is a decision for the committee to consider its work programme in private at the next meeting, do members agree to take this item in private? I welcome Anas Sarwar to the committee this morning. The agenda item 2 is to take evidence in a proposed cross-party group. The group that we have to consider today is Pro-CPG on Govan Hill. I would like to welcome the member to invite Anas to make an opening statement. First of all, I apologise for being 30 seconds late. ScotRio was on time, so I missed my train, so I apologise. This group, in terms of bringing this forward, as Mr Harvie will be aware of, came from very much the local community of Govan Hill. We were all invited as MSPs to a cross-party event with the community of Govan Hill and also organisations in Govan Hill. What the express of frustration at was with all the constant elections that were happening with different political parties being in power in different places was that they wanted politicians who represent the city of Glasgow and wider a field to recognise the national impact of what was happening in Govan Hill, what huge impact that had locally, and for politicians to work together and perhaps take the heat out of what is happening in the vicinity of Govan Hill and bring it to Parliament in a way that is more appropriate. That is why I think that it is in the interest of the Govan Hill community, but more widely of Scotland and this Parliament, to have a cross-party group on Govan Hill to look at the issues specifically within Govan Hill, which is slightly different from national strategies because of the specific challenges that we face in Govan Hill, whether that be around specific housing challenges, whether that be around specific immigration challenges, whether that be around social integration, whether it be around poverty and health inequalities, whether it be in other services around health and education, and how we meet the needs there are certain cleansing and environmental issues. I am sure that some of you will have seen the programme just a couple of weeks ago as well around certain issues around human trafficking, which is also a huge issue in Govan Hill as well. It is designed as a forum to bring together all political parties here in our Parliament and also individuals and organisations from Govan Hill to speak openly and honestly in a less confrontational environment, which might be the case locally, but here in the Parliament to discuss how we can take forward those issues and find common ground and also find policies that can suit the area for Govan Hill and be an example for other places. I am interested in what you spoke about, less confrontational aspects. If people were not in Govan Hill but in here, you are saying that that might be less confrontational. Would it be a duplication of people who are already actively involved in addressing some of the issues, whether it is environment cleansing, to bring the same people to Parliament to talk about the same issues? Would that be a duplication? Are you meaning that it is in terms of the agencies or elected members? Agencies. Well, as anyone who has ever been to a public meeting in Govan Hill will know, it very quickly descends into a battle between either agencies or battle between organisations or indeed individuals. This was a request directly from the community organisations in Govan Hill and also individual residents in Govan Hill that we should have a cross-party forum that brought together agencies but was overseen by parliamentarians or the elected voices of people in Govan Hill and beyond to try and overcome some of those challenges. So, in terms of the duplication, there has been communication already, for example, with the education department, with the social work department and cleansing and DRS within Glasgow and sometimes there's some confrontation between those individual agencies within one local authority. We're trying to create a forum. So, within the last few days already, we've had a communication with the city council and different forums and there's a Govan Hill action group, which is currently co-chair by the local SNP councillor and also the local Labour councillor. The intention is that they would be invited to join the cross-party group, something that they have not ruled out, but they want to meet members of the cross-party group to discuss the work that they do and see if there is some common ground that can be found. So, would you see that the cross-party group would meet here initially to try and build relationships and then continue maybe to meet locally? I think that it probably needs to be a combination of both. I think that it would be for the members of the cross-party group to decide alongside the co-chairs and individual members, both elected members and non-elected members of the CPG. I think that we'd like to have meetings here in Parliament but also recognise that, on some occasions, we will require to do either field visits or to meet agencies within Govan Hill or other parts of Glasgow, and I think that as a CPG we'd be open to that. Section 6.3.11 asks us to consider two things when we're looking at a CPG. One is public interest and the other is whether or not the CPG overlaps with an existing CPG. Could you maybe just describe what you think the public interest in having a CPG to focus on Govan Hill would be? Firstly, in terms of the overlap, I think that there are some CPGs that have similar work that the CPG and Govan Hill will consider, for example, around health inequalities, housing and human trafficking. It would be important to work with those CPGs and see what opportunities they have. I think that what makes Govan Hill distinct is that we bring together all those things that are happening, their individual issues and areas, and overlap in terms of real mirage of challenges that we have in Govan Hill. In terms of public interest, I think that that's pretty clear. Govan Hill has become a national story for all the wrong reasons. Actually, there are some good things happening in Govan Hill as well, but all the wrong reasons have to become a national story. That might have an impact in terms of wider policymaking in Scotland, but actually a day-to-day impact that has on life for people in Govan Hill is even more severe. I think that there's a genuine public interest for the people of Govan Hill to know that their parliamentarians are working together with the agencies who are trying to address those issues. I think that there's also public interest because I think that what makes Govan Hill different from other places is that I'm not sure that the national strategies, whether it be on housing, whether it be on immigration, whether it be on cleansing environmental, whether it be on regeneration, will reflect the priorities that are in Govan Hill. We might need some distinct policymaking for Govan Hill that's different from what we would class as being national strategies. I think that that's why it's definitely in the public interest, and that public interest has, as I say, been expressed to us by the public themselves within Govan Hill. One of the clear purposes of CPGs is to bring policymakers together with outside individuals and outside organisations. It's great to see that you've got the local police inspector as an external member and also the local community council. Are there rather local groups that you're seeking to engage in and maybe bring on board as an external member? Yes, absolutely. After our first meeting where we constituted the group, there is a list of organisations that have been written to invite them to join. A number of them have expressed their interest. My intention would be to take all the communications that have come from those organisations to the next meeting of the CPG so that members can approve their membership and invite them to future meetings as well. Finally, how do you see this sort of potential as a model of bringing people together to focus on particular issues in particular areas? Do you think that this is something that could be of benefit for other places? I'm not going to say whether it's a model for other areas or not. I think that, genuinely, it's about Govan Hill. To be honest, that's my intention for this group. Anyone who's ever visited Govan Hill, anyone who's ever spoken to a resident of Govan Hill, anyone who's ever read some of the horrific things that happen in Govan Hill or watched any of the TV pieces on Govan Hill, will understand how serious an issue it is for local people and the genuine day-to-day impact it has on people's lives. I think it's only right that that is reflected in priorities for this Parliament and for parliamentarians in this Parliament. That's why I think it's really important for us to have this group. Thank you. Mr Sheard. Thank you. Mr Sallow, you put forward a very strong case for the reasons that you believe that this should happen, and I'm certainly sympathetic towards that. What priorities and what agenda will you set initially, because you obviously have quite a lot of issues to take on board, so you'll need to prioritise some of those into what can be achieved in a short term or a long term, and how would you go about trying to achieve that, because it obviously hasn't been achieved in the past? Very good question, Mr Sheard. The four themes that have been identified by the cross-party group is one, around housing, secondly, around cleansing and environmental services, third, around inequalities and social integration, and fourth, around crime and antisocial behaviour. The most important issue I think from that is housing, and the reason why is I think housing is what tracks on to the other issues that follow. We have a huge problem of overcrowding in Govan Hill. There are circumstances in which families are being trafficked from other parts of Europe, particularly from Eastern Europe, with the promise of a job, with the promise of a home, and are living in overcrowded accommodation with up to eight to twelve people living in a flat, with only one person working, taking an income of, say, £200 a week, £50 going to their gangmaster, £100 going on their flat costs a week, and £50 to sustain a family of 10 to 12 people. So much of the other issues that are happening around crime and antisocial behaviour are happening around human trafficking, cleansing and regeneration. All of it stems from real issues around housing. One of the things that has been proposed before by both the council and the Scottish Government is how we look at, for example, compulsory purchase orders and how we use the powers that we have, either at a local authority level or at a Scottish Government level to do a transformational change around housing and overcrowding. That is a policy discussion that we are really keen to have. From developing all of that, you will get short success stories initially on specifics, but in the long term it is still a massive issue that has to be involved with not just parliamentarians but other agencies and organisations that have to take on ownership to make this work. Absolutely. Without the support of local police, but it is support of local agencies that are associated with the council, without the support of the housing association, without the buy-in from, I believe, all political parties and local community organisations, it is always going to be a challenge to get the right results for Government Hill. As I said, there are good things happening in Government Hill, but we are so caught up in all the bad things and what appears to the public, at least, to be the sparring between different agencies or different political parties, I think that, having a forum, we would say that we are taking the party politics out of this. We are generally trying to work together and bring together agencies to address the issues that are going on. I think that that is a really important signal. Thank you, convener. I was going to ask about what the unique circumstances are, but other colleagues have already asked what those are. I am very much taken by the idea that this is essentially coming from the grassroots movement. You identified many of the unique problems. What is the outcome for this group? Do you see yourself as a catalyst to putting further pressure on the national strategies that you mentioned that you believe are not working? I think that it is a combination. I think that it would be wrong for me to suggest that a cross-party group in Government Hill is going to be the silver bullet that is going to solve all the problems in Government Hill. If I said that, I would be frankly not telling the truth. That is simply not the case. The reality is that the situation in Government Hill is very complicated. It is years in the making and it will take years to resolve. The combination of how we resolve it is one, as I said, around the housing issue. How do we tackle the gangmasters, slum landlords and adequate housing legislation that gives the teeth to either the housing association or the local authority to take action against rogue landlords and to transform the heart of Government Hill? That is a long-term issue. Secondly, social integration is a huge challenge. The local school says that it has more than 40 languages spoken within one school. That is obviously going to have an impact on children's education and local services, whether that be local GP services or local or wider health services. How do we challenge social integration to make sure that we are getting communities working together? The interesting thing about Government Hill is that it has always been an attractive place for people to move whenever we have had high levels of migration. It was traditionally a place where the Irish community went to when they first came to Glasgow, where the Jewish community first went to when they came to Glasgow, where the South Asian community first went to when they came to Glasgow. It was always seen as a great place where people integrated and Government Hill still went on. There are specific challenges this time around mass migration from Europe. That less so to do with the individuals and more to do with the people who are exploiting those individuals. How do we work with the police to tackle exploitation, to identify the gangmasters and to make sure that we are putting effective legislation on the ground is important. As an aside to that, one of the things that I find most abhorrent about what happens in Government Hill is that it is completely unacceptable for any time, particularly in the 21st century, for any woman to have to think twice to walk down any street because of any possible verbal abuse or any threat of physical attack. That happens in Government Hill. There are streets in Government Hill that women will not walk down unless they are a company with somebody. That is happening right now in Glasgow and in Scotland. That needs to be challenged head-on. How do we address those issues? Further to that, the levels of crime and people being exploited, whether it be around drug usage, prostitution, sham marriages, which was something that was exposed in the BBC programme, or other issues, we need to address them all. The symbolism of a group is firstly important, which demonstrates that the Parliament takes the issues in Government Hill seriously. Secondly, it demonstrates, I hope, a maturity in terms of our politics that we can bring politicians from different political parties together to recognise that the Government Hill is a specific case and should be dodged from that party political infighting. Thirdly, we recognise that we need to bring agencies together for a strategic approach. That is the intention of the group. Again, I repeat that I do not think that it is a silver bullet, but I hope that it is progress. I wish you every success. Thanks very much. Members will be aware that I am a member of this proposed EPG. I suppose that I just wanted to not let the whole session go by without some greater recognition that we are not just talking about an area with problems, we are also talking about an area with strengths and there is a lot of creativity, there is a lot of vibrancy in the local community and some people are doing fantastic work, whether it is a response to the particular challenges or just because they are exploring the strengths of a diverse community and expressing that. Given that different levels of government have all had some attempt to proactively respond to the particular circumstances in Government Hill, including the Scottish Government, each can engage with the community. However, if that happens in separate boxes, people will end up feeling that stuff is being done to them. Do you agree that there is no forum at the moment, there is no space at the moment for people to engage across those different levels of government, local, Scottish, UK, as well as other agencies, and that that is what this EPG aims to provide? Absolutely. I have been at the community council meeting with Mr Harvey, and that is a situation that is expressed where it goes from one agency to another, and there is that football kick-around about where it lands. I think that giving an opportunity to bring all those agencies together, perhaps outwith the heat of what is happening in Government Hill, I think, is an important opportunity. However, can I please emphasise what you said at the start? Yes, there are bad stories in Government Hill, but there are really good stories in Government Hill. What I would love to see happen from the EPG is not only how we tailor policies from here and from other places that can help to overcome the challenges in Government Hill, but actually how we can use the example of Government Hill and the things that they have got right as a way of showing how you can have a gold standard of social integration, how you resolve challenging local public services in a situation where you have lots of different identities, lots of different cultures brought together, how you can learn the lessons from what we have done in Government Hill and replicate them in other parts. What is happening in Government Hill could well happen in another part of Scotland or in another part of the UK or in another part of Europe. I think that being able to tell that positive story in Government Hill as well as trying to get the answers to the challenges in Government Hill can be a replication for other parts of the UK and the other parts of Europe. We have touched briefly on the question, but can you give us an idea of how the group would intend to work with other CPGs, as you said, to have a similar remit on health inequalities in the other areas and how you intend to go about engaging with other CPGs, given that we now have very many of them and time for all members is very constrained when it comes to— I think that the obvious overlaps of this are in housing, health inequalities and human trafficking. At the earliest opportunity, my intention would be to write to all three of those CPGs asking if there is co-work that could be done, whether that be if they are bringing key stakeholders or policy makers together, whether that could be done at a joint meeting in a joint session, or indeed if there are lessons that they have already learned or examples of good practice that we can learn from them as well, particularly on the human trafficking side, because I think that the weakness that we would have probably in the CPG on Government Hill is quite natural for us to focus on the day-to-day things like cleansing, housing and local police, but the wider issues around human trafficking require a much more broader approach. I think that the CPG on human trafficking can be of particular help for that one. I think that the clerks will keep me right, but there are about 95 cross-party groups right now and it is a real challenge to get them. How often would you propose to meet them? The challenges will soon have more CPGs than MSPs, which will be of interest. Our intention is to do one meeting this side of summer recess, particularly looking at the issues around housing, and then a meeting the other side of recess looking more at the wider environmental and cleansing issues, which comes up as a hot topic. However, my intention would be for us to meet as often as is practically possible, and I hope that that would entail at least three or four meetings each calendar year within the Parliament and then hopefully some sessions within Government Hill itself. Sorry, was that another question? Thank you so much for your time this morning. We will be considering the CPG in our next agenda item when you will be informed of the decision as quickly as possible. Thank you so much for your time this morning. We now can move to agenda item 3. I would invite comments from the members regarding the proposed CPG. I am happy to support its establishment, but then I would be because I am a member. I mean, I think that what they are trying to achieve is laudable, but it has got challenges. There is no question about that, but I think that trying to take the heat out of it that they talked about might be a very useful thing to achieve. By bringing it and taking it on agenda items or specifics, they may well try to get some success from it, but it obviously is a very complicated and quite volatile situation for the residents and the members of Parliament. I think that it should be tried for that question, because it gives them an opportunity to try to take some heat out of that problem. Was that there is work going on and the duplication in the fact that you are pulling people out of Govan Hill to Edinburgh? I think that Annas Sarwar makes a valid point about taking the heat out of it and sometimes taking people out of it. That whole situation allows you to then maybe get a bit of a clear head and a focus, so it seems that I agree about the idea of it being laudable. Something obviously has to be addressed. Everything that has been said, this is obviously a naturally welcoming community, but the problems are manifest. I welcome any effort in the cross-party group to address some of those problems, which has to be a good thing. I think that there is a sensible recognition that it won't necessarily be a silver bullet, but if it's a catalyst to improvement, then it has to be a good thing. Do you members agree to a chord recognition to cross-party group in Govan Hill? Thank you very much. We now move into private sessions.