 Welcome to Toffy TV today. I am joined by one of the most recognisable faces in football. The man who's presenting changed the way we view football. He's still doing it today. He's still absolutely fantastic and I'm delighted to say I'm joined by Richard Keyes. Richard, how are you? I'm privileged to be on Toffy TV, actually. Just a bit. Can we just get something straight right at the very start of this? You're not a Liverpool fan, are you? Let me answer that. Give me a little room to manoeuvre with that. When I worked on Merseyside, my heart was always a goodness. I used to love a night out with the boy, Mick Lyons, George Wood, Andy King. What a great lad. My head told me if I wanted to watch, at the time, successful and enjoyable football, then I had to be at Anfield. There was something quite intoxicating about following Liverpool to one success after another and equally frustrating. I knew how much it meant to the lads over the road to be part of something similar. Eventually, of course, that was the case, not only were they part of something similar, I think they were better during that period of time. I'd moved on from that point. It's a long answer to know if you put me into a corner and said, are you red or blue? Liverpool players of a certain generation, they're a gust when they discover where my heart lies. My head these days as well, to be fair. I'm blue, more than I'm red. Fantastic. But you are a Coventry fan of me and we don't need to know. Everybody knows that. Yes, I am a Coventry fan. There's a burden about being a Coventry fan as well. Although Evertonian should be very grateful to us because I spoke on the morning to Gordon Strachan the year that we came and you needed points, not this time, not us. Strachan was absolutely determined to send you down. He wanted to win that game. Gareth Fowley scores and everybody relaxes. Dion Dublin scores and everybody's very anxious. Coventry came to win that game, I can promise you. The pity is, of course Gordon was not part of the history of our club, but we owed you from the evening you'd beaten Sunderland and Bristol City and ourselves, who needed a point from the game that was taking place at Coventry that night. We got one. By coincidence we kicked off late, 15 minutes later than you did at Everton, so traffic and obviously security reasons. We all knew the score from Goodison that you'd beaten Sunderland 2-0 and they were going down if we finished up in a draw with Bristol City. Managed at the time by Alan Dicks, Jimmy Hill's old number 2, John Sillett was there and as things worked out, that's how it finished. It finished to a piece and that was an extraordinary coincidence, really extraordinary. So we bumped on each other a favour, that was quite good. By the way, you did a big favour that night. Just go on taking you right back to the very start you created. Now you'd started in London, hadn't you been working for an agency in London? Haters, I think. Is that correct? Yes, correct. And then how did the move to Mezyshire come up? To Radio City? When I was working in London, it was in the very early days of local radio. And that's all I ever wanted to do was radio, television. I was the one in the office when if a job came in Ipswich, Radio Wallwell, Birmingham, BRNB, Tony Butler at the time was a big star. If a job came in whereby you were sent to a game to cover it for a particular radio station, I was the man. At this point I was at home when the opportunity came up to go to Liverpool and Mike Calvin, very distinguished fleet street writer now, used to sit opposite to me at 80s, rang me and said, there's a job here. I've just seen in the UK Prescas that you should apply, it's right up your street. Radio City had no idea what that was because it hadn't worked for the ads. The first time I went for interviews, the first time I'd ever been to Liverpool, as I left the city that night, I thought, well, I'll have a look round the place. There must be an open top bus tour in Liverpool. I'll go and ask someone at the station if there is. Well, there wasn't. I don't think this is there. But I got the job. Martin Johnson sports editor, Clive Tildesley was commentator. Martin left within about three months of arriving. He'd replaced Elton who'd gone to Granada TV. I have to tell you, it was four wonderful years. It took me about six months to get the head around it. When I'd settled, working with and for Clive, Clive was a sensational radio commentator. I think the best. I think the best. Others will tell you differently. But for me, the best. He's become a really very, very, very good television commentator. But it was four fantastic years. I did have one major crisis. It was the first one in my life. I was homesick for a while for London. I've been working at the BBC with Bob Wilson on football focus for a while, checking his scripts and facts and things. Bob would ring me every Friday, which was really nice of him. And I remember one weekend saying, Bob, I've got trouble here. I said, I'm supposed to be the expert going on the radio, talking to people about football. And everybody in Liverpool knows more about football than me. I mean, I feel a right mug. And it was a problem to me because in that 30 second flash, which is the only, we only had that at the time, one minute, half time, get things across and explain. And thank goodness Clive had not been for Clive, I'm not sure I would ever have made it. He was so good, and he was so thoughtful, and he was so caring. I went after four years, I'd worked to a point where I wanted to do all the things he was doing. And there wasn't room for us at Radio City anymore, so I left and went to Manchester. But it was a wonderful four years. Wonderful four years, great people. And I mean, fantastic people around the clubs and both clubs. I mean, characters at both, to this day, are still friends. And I'm extremely proud of having worked on Merseyside. Yeah, I mean, as a football time, obviously you touched on it right at the very beginning. Everton were struggling during your time. We were okay, and then we went into that struggle period. And obviously, Howard come in 81. We had conversely across the park, they were incredible. They were the best team in your era. So we had to cope with that. I guess the answer to this is no, because I don't think anybody saw it coming. But while you were still a city, and Howard brought in the magnificent seven of which only one was magnificent, which is Neville Shalthall. But that wasn't even his signing. Neville was not his signing. Which is bizarre. If you go back to the Gordon Lee's biggest mistake was selling Duncan MacKenzie. Evertonians loved Duncan. He was perfect for Everton. He was everything that they want. He was the new golden vision. He was an entertainer for Gordon Lee. But remember it sold, maybe you don't remember, but for a certain generation they will. Gordon had controversially sold Malcolm MacDonald out of Newcastle when he was there to Arsenal. But the team that Gordon initially had was a good one. Dobson, King, Ross, Bob Lachford was magnificent. Dave Thomas, absolutely sensational. Lyons, Wright, Higgs, Higgins, Darracott, Pedgic initially, John Bailey. That was a good side. And they were finishing fourth. Bob got 30 goals the first year I came up. But then the wheels came off. Then it started to go wrong. And I remember sitting in that big stand there. I mean they used to say the stand at Prince and Park was the coldest in football. It wasn't. That main stand at Everton was. And I can remember being at Goodison with 14,000 people. It was a miserable time. And Howard's arrival didn't change anything. Initially Howard was really... I can see him now dragging his backside up and down right midfield. Desparately having to an effect. He was player manager, remember. And it just really wasn't going very well at all. I was there to see the arrival of the seven. The deal for Neville was done. Neville was coming from Berry anyway. So between sacking Gordon and Howard being appointed. You remember Howard brought in Jim Arnold. His preferred first choice keeper from Blackburn. Jim got the nod as number one. Jim couldn't. He wanted to take the club in the direction everybody was hoping for. Good enough. He was a good goalkeeper at Blackburn. But he was never going to be a goalkeeper at Everton. Ever. Alan Ainsco, lovely fellow. Just bang ordinary. Mickey Thomas, who refused to play in the reserves and was sold as quickly as he arrived. Mick Ferguson. You've got his jersey there, I see. Mick Ferguson. Alan Biley. All these were nice people. Michael Walsh, the centre backer. But they weren't good enough for Everton. Not one of them was an Everton player. In the end, when Howard got boxed into a corner, he rolled a dice twice. Reedy, who George Wood had almost ended the career of in the snow at Bolton one afternoon, did his crucial. But Reedy and Terry Curran, and then ultimately Andy. The rest is history. To be fair, Adrian Heath, he spent big money on India. That was a good piece of business. But it was really hard in the early days. More by luck than judgment. Perhaps he moved easy along Mickey Heaton and wanted to work with Colin. And I think the boys that were around at the time would give Colin great credit. That he came in and started to help change things. But initially they were going nowhere. They were no better than the team that Gordon left. It was a strange time. I was a kid back when he remember that with the first game. We'd be beaming him 3-1 and Rod Stewart, Alan Biley scored a goal. A lovely chip. Everyone's like, he's okay, this fellow. But ultimately you're right. As we went along you could see that. Especially someone like Alan Ains. Decent song games, other games, not good enough. No, bang ordinary. Alan was a lovely guy. I'll tell you the story before we came in. I saw the Ferguson jumper. In those days there was no barrier between us, press and player. Howard threw us off the team coach. That came as a bit of a shock to us. That was a culture change. We travelled everywhere initially with a coach. Me, Charlie Lambert, Brian McEvoy, Eddie Hemmings. We had the front four seats. The Everton coach was brilliant. I was quite good at Monopoly. Linesie always used to insist I went and sat at the back with the players. And played Monopoly. His favourite three, the orange ones, Vine Street. Everybody came out of jail. He always landed on his. I was embraced into the players section of the coach. Howard stopped that. He didn't stop the communication. I'm lying at home one night in Irby. Irby double four, one five. Phone rings. I'm lying on the sofa relaxed. Richard, Howard Kendall. Howard sat up. Royalty. I signed another one. I said, great. Who is it this time? Mick Ferguson. It was everything I could do to stop myself saying. Why? Why? Why me, Ferguson? I'm not being unkind. Mick was a lovely guy. But he wasn't foreverton. And he just kept doing this. Signing people that weren't good enough. I suppose the maybe the pressure of what was going on across the park. He gambled a guess at that stage. And he was young. When he came in he was playing, wasn't he? He was a player manager. We had to play for us. I think he probably was at that time. Absolutely. He was starting. He didn't want to start games. But then the best period came. I'd gone to, as I say, I'd gone to Manchester. In somewhat controversial circumstances. Big money move that was, I'll have you know. And in those days you did not leave Radio City to work in Manchester or vice versa. It's a bit like crossing the park. It was a certain Liverpool to Manchester. So I quit. I didn't tell him. So I quit. I didn't tell anybody where I was going. Then I turned up in Manchester. But I couldn't have been happier that eventually they got it right. And a great bunch of lads. I mean, fantastic. I remember Sharpie before Andy came. And I've said this to him. Moody. Difficult lad. We were at Ipswich and I'm desperate for an interview. And I'm pointing at him on the coach. Will he come off? Just do two minutes. I've got the tape recorder, two minutes. Just didn't. Didn't. They were all under pressure. Nobody wanted to be nice. But I think and I think Sharpie would say Andy turned up. And Andy says and he's right. I think turned him from a score of great goals into a great goalscorer. All of a sudden Sharpie was banging goals in everywhere. Adrian Heath. Great little fella. Great little fella. Reedy. I love it. You can't fail, then. I've always said with Andy, I think a major part of our success at Sky was down to his belief, his optimism, his leadership. You've got one of those around. You've got a chance. You've got two. And him and Reedy could have been brothers. Then you can conquer the work. And all of a sudden, Everton started making inroads. And it was fantastic. Fantastic period of time. That's my standard for Everton. Cos I was obviously a kid at that stage. That paint into your mind, isn't it? But that team was incredible and obviously the films out with Rob Sloman's film, Howard's Way, which is incredible. And we get to live all of those memories again. It's brilliant. But just on a personal level for you, moving on from there, then you were on TV AM. And you remember you poppin up as the morning anchor on TV AM. Was that a bit of a culture change for you? Well, I wanted, I desperately wanted to work in television. And Paul Docherty was the head of sport at Granada. Elton was a young man. So there were no vacancies. It wasn't going to happen at Granada. The lad I moved to Manchester and got close, had I moved in, he went and worked at this new company called TV AM. He took me down there and I wasn't sure at all. I said to Doc one day at Old Trafford, what do you think, Richard? You've been driving me mad asking about opportunities in television. I think you should take it. Well, it was a pretty rough ride. Let me tell you, it was a scary ride as well in the early days. But it was a great ride. And there's another story, another Everton story. It's remarkable this. I'm at TV AM. Howard was kind enough to come in and sat on the sofa one morning. And he said to me, do you want a set of Everton jerseys? I said, what do you mean Everton jerseys? He said, I've got a full set of Everton jerseys and you can have them if you want. Cut final jerseys, the other jersey, but not the one the lads wore. So I said, well, yeah. I'm quite sure what I'm going to do with these. And they were the long sleeve jersey. And many years later I'm working with Andy and there's an auction and his cut final jersey comes up for auction. And he said, that's not my jersey. Mine was a short sleeve jersey, that's mine. And I thought, I think I'm responsible for that because I actually moved them on to Bob Wilson and Bob, I don't know what Bob did with them. He gave them to a charity. So there's a set of jerseys out there all with long sleeves that are not cut final jerseys that Everton jerseys, but they're not the ones the lads wore. Fair play. Fair enough. He was great. Give me them now. Wow, and they're worth fortune. But they're all in circulation somewhere. But no, it was a good period. I loved that. That was as enjoyable a time as it was when me and Andy went on the radio. That was probably the best two years of my career. I mean, we wouldn't have volunteered to go on the radio in the manner that we ended up finding our way to talk sport, but it was a great period of time. Having worked in Manchester, I have an affection for both Manchester clubs, but not like I did Merseyside. That was... I would look at Merseyside and still call it home. Right. Very interesting. It's a great part of the world. I mean, Reds hate me these days. They think I've got it in for their team. I haven't. I just... They hate me more than Newcastle fans. Not quite so much. But I just call it as I see it. And, you know, I was interested to see Jürgen Klok talking a couple of days ago. I feared for my job in the early days. He was no better than Brendan for their identical records for a long period of time. I said of Everton, Ancelotti. I was amazed Everton got Ancelotti, staggered. I thought he was a ready-made replacement for Good Evening at Arsenal. Arsenal's project was further down the line than Everton's. Michael Arthetta would have been fantastic for Everton. I've always said Everton, Moisey made it different, but he arrived and said the right thing. Moisey gave you the People's Club. I've always thought Everton is a club where you have to have touched the ball. You have to understand the club. You cannot go in without fully... And I don't know what it is. I can't explain it. But it's different. It is different. It is special. And Arthetta knew that. Now, listen. Can Ancelotti bring James Rodriguez and others? I hope so. Can Everton rejoin the top six? I hope so. But I still felt and I still do that each club got the wrong one. But I wish Ancelotti nothing but good luck. It would be great to see Everton banging doors down again and being part of the elite. There should be. Don't leave Goodison. I keep saying this to Andy. Don't leave Goodison. I know Bramley Docker and all that. But do what Liverpool did. Buy the houses around and about and develop. You can do it behind the goal that end. Gladys Street is great. You've got the big stand. Come this side. Goodison is special. It just is. It's an old stadium but I think most Evertonians for a long time would have been right there with you. Why aren't we doing it? We should have been doing it from when Liverpool rebuilt their stadium in 20 years. That's something maybe we should have done. We really would have started that process. I still think you could. I still think it would be financially viable to do so. I don't know why not. I'm still not convinced that any club that's left an arena that we were in love with and we favoured has actually gone on to do any better. Arsenal for a decade suffered. Now I don't care how deep Wismanoff's pockets are and the machinery between them. Goodison is home. It is Everton. There will be strains when we leave. But back to you. You've ended up at Skye and then obviously started fronting Super Sunday which was the change. Back then could you envisage when you got asked to head that up what kind of impact you would have and how the Premier League changed? No. I don't think any of us had any idea. In the first contract we got the first Premier League contract and we'd all been doing it for a long time and we had a CDAM with a view to becoming the first to leave the sofa and make a success of being a sports broadcaster Nick Owen tried. Nick's a good mate didn't work out for him at ITV sport but he'd previously of course been a sports reporter and presenter so I had to reinvent myself again 92 there was a quality clause in the contract if we weren't good enough we were going to lose in six months and there were a lot of people at ITV that were obviously chipping away and Fergie was part of that set at that time, didn't want it to work but I do remember I had a sport David Hill at the time saying we'll look back at this period and say they got Premier League rights for the relatively minimal price of and it was 300 million something like that and at the time it was massive but you look back now and you go it was nothing, really he was right we got it right with Andy who reinvented TV analysis and gave us what we've got to I don't think anybody's moved it on in the way that we did I think it's still there are different people there are different toys but it's by and large still the same as ever it was and it was a privilege to be there and do it across that period of time great memories going back to Everton was shocking the contract in those days was you had to see each club home and away once I think and there were only 40 games remember so it was rather limiting but the left of the games were for us to play with, we could go where we like and Bill Kenright called me in one day said you never come to Everton it was good money if you got the extra games I said Bill it's not fun coming to Everton he said what do you mean? I said I can't park the car I can't get in the boys on the security gate want to make life difficult the trucks are an imposition you can't park, you don't want them why would we come to Everton to be fair the next time we went to Everton they were rolling out blue carpets and we were Bill changed everything and to go back to Everton was a treat Ferguson the night when Joe Royal took Joe Royal there's another Joe Royal what a good lad the night that Joe took charge and Ferguson won the Derby these are so many good memories of games there and special I'd go back to special Goodison is special is it as special as your iconic jacket right at the very start well there's a story there as well the reason for the jacket was obviously our job was to sell we were a commercial operation we'd spent an awful lot of money on it we'd given football a shop window for the first time in my opinion our national sport had a shop window in which to present its wares it hadn't previously been the case I think ITV's first live games used to be around about November and BBC came in around about January and obviously there was a cup final once a year but no one was doing it like we did it but they weren't really taking notice of us and we had a we had a stylist by the name of Paul Sherman who came in and said I've got an idea Eve Sandler on jackets we should all be wearing those and ironically Andy had turned up a hybrid in a yellow one before we went that route he was the first to go on air to sky with a coloured jacket but he also had a very good relationship with a gaffer so when he said I don't want to wear these jackets I think Keesie should I was the mug that had to wear them and this day did the job everybody started talking about them what are we on? 30 years? 35 years? I don't know but everybody is still talking about coloured jackets I quite like them for honest but they all got given to charities in various different places found a home once I had stopped using them but it was I had 12 all sorts of different colours whites, greens but I always carried two with me because I couldn't I was worried about wearing one in the colours that the team were playing in and that became useful the day we were at Wimbledon and we were doing the introduction to the show live and the boys out in the dressing room door we were doing it from the tunnel the boys out in the dressing room door that was in a viny squirt liniment and all sorts of things so of course cut my tie off certainly back out I came out a dishevelled mess changed and I was ready again so carrying two jackets that day was a very good idea most definitely you were foreseeing that's what it was especially when you went and met up with Vinnie Jones but I think it was for all of those reasons no one had ever done this before no one had it the way you had it with Andy Gray obviously that relationship was brilliant I loved the footballers football show and the boot room I remember Andy doing training sessions with clubs, with the strikers and sky at it but that just wouldn't happen now because you can't get close to them no you couldn't do it now you can't get near the lads we would Jeff Shreves obviously would he'd managed the tunnel and the lads wanted to come on 300 quid 300 quid for a guest on a Sunday afternoon I remember Jack Charlton coming to Leeds Jack had done a lot of ITV work great but ITV would come on hello here's a game, half time gone, gone, that was it nothing and he sat down we went on air we used to do two hour build up and he said when's the game, when's the game I said four o'clock it's two o'clock man I said yeah what are we going to do when the game started he went over the road well there's a chip shop opposite when the game started he went over the road for a pie and chips didn't see the first half came back and sat down he was both bored and tired wanted food he was great but we used to do two hours then the game and then an hour on the back of it five hours incredible but that changed it didn't it that got everybody hooked I remember Wimbledon against Covent Wimbledon, Aston Villa there'd be three and a half thousand but it was on sky and you'd sit down and the programming started seven and you'd watch it three I think the first game was first Monday night was at Main Road Manchester City and QPR I remember my opening words that night weekends will never be the same again because it did extend the weekend going back to work Monday morning was miserable so if you've got a football match to look forward to and there was one of some quality in those days you could get good games on because there were no Champions League matches so there was no demand for clubs to play Tuesday Wednesday so you'd get some good games on you had to go everywhere like I said you had to go at least once at home and you had to follow them away but it did make the weekend and certainly Monday was a whole lot more palatable those that remember we put on halftime shows and the like poor old Sonia came to Coventry and got battered one night that was a shame but if you did that now I think you'd get a better reception for that we were too far ahead of that time I was going to say you were so far ahead of the curve weren't you at the time with some of the with some of the stuff you were doing but it was great it was good fun and it made Monday an entertainment which is the whole idea we nick the title of course from the Americans their Monday night football was very different to ours but we'd stolen the title and it survived and it morphed and it became when we used to go to the games then we came inside and it became Andy's baby then he could really start to analyse football matches and that was my second crisis I'd had one on Merseyside and when I got to know him I thought I'd educated myself to a level where I knew something about the game met Andy and realised I knew nothing again because he'd just taken it on to another level and I think he introduced a generation to a better understanding of football than any of us I mean I watch stuff, we're in the middle of lockdown I watch stuff now, I watch legends Brian Moore and Coleman and people like this and I'm seeing things on the screen that they haven't won the other night, a Liverpool game Ray Clements was supposed to have touched a ball over the bar and he got nowhere near it and I think it was Barry Davison or one of Clements who is laughing he didn't touch that but it came off the shoulder of the centre half here, have a look at that those are the things that Andy started to get us to look for and I know even now if I watch a game with Andy he'll see something I haven't of course he will, he played, he knows and that's great but I always ultimately bow to his because he'll be right and I won't be that's the bottom line I mean you have got that on screen chemistry, I still watch Kees and Grey every day on YouTube because obviously can't have, no I do but we can have it's hard to get being sporty but we want it there I mean you nearly lost them in 1997 to Everton do you think I mean they spoke to Andy last week and he was still adamant that he would have offered him the job when he went for it, he'd have took it and he didn't which is bizarre but that's another story and another time I guess but do you think that he's known he's worked with him for so long knowing how thorough he is about the game do you think he'd have made a good manager or has he I've always said, by the way the story he told you he was correct that the job was never offered and I think he's got a lot to do with the fact that he went in and particularly for me made the point that the first team was the first priority that he needed to attend and there was a feeling at the club and you need to be organic there isn't time but I've always said I think he would have been a sensational coach Reedy's never had the credit for what he achieved sensational what Reedy went on to do Andy I'm sure would have done the very same thing and I know that deep down there is a regret that he didn't get the chance to go back and manage his club Reedy should have been invited back Peter Eid didn't end up coaching managing at Everton probably people that had the job were scared of him but he should have been given the job at some point but I am certain Andy would have made not sure now I think the games changed to a point where Andy's and probably Reedy's motivational manner shall we say is maybe outdated but I think back then I think Andy would have been and I've always said this to him it would have been fantastic I know they say that good players don't necessarily make good managers I'd argue slightly differently Bobby Moore was given Oxford City nobody trusted Bob Bobby Moore didn't make a good manager Bobby Charlton was given Preston to start with Bob didn't make it as a manager if you're put into a position whereby you've got the wherewithal and you've got good players there's no secret chances are you need a little bit of manipulation and motivation around them but good players will always win trophies so if you've got a coach that understands and can get a performance from people and Andy can Andy gets performances from people he fills the room, he inspires people I think he would have been a fantastic coach but equally as I say I think Reedy would have been and I don't know how is the case that Peter was never given ever to know when I think of some of the appointments that have been made he was the right man for me but there we are I totally agree with you you're in very diplomatically put there as well their management style might have changed slightly with the way it is but that football has changed hasn't it you can't rally people you can't get in people's faces then days are gone now and you know when you play at any level that was part of the game you needed to do something up sometimes you needed it now you'd have a lawsuit on your hands almost wouldn't you well you would do you'd certainly have HR that's an absolute certainty life has changed but that go all the way that team that Howard had they were like the great Reedy teams all of the great teams they look after each other Brian Marwood half dingy inevitable that Brian Marwood was going to get half and for the rest of his career didn't go anywhere near Reedy because but they looked after each other in she goes to Andy at Newcastle that Glen road is kicking me Andy so Andy goes and leaves a bit on Glen unfortunately breaks a metatarsal and in she comes in for 12 games that's it isn't it that's football isn't it but it was it Leeds would hand them on if somebody was having a round with Billy Brenda then Johnny would take over that's how it works but again you don't see that these days I'm now at that stage we got banned by Fergie in the first year we had the temerity to turn cameras on it when he had a tantrum in the dugout at QPR explain to it that's our we're not going down the tunnel with you we don't want to go to the dressing room with you but if you're in the arena we're going to point a camera at you and if you're misbehaving you're going to look daft but anyway he decided to ban it so we turned in that first year to George Bess Dennis Law, Bill Folks I mean all these guys legendary characters at Manchester United but all of course of a certain generation well I am now of that generation I'm now the old boy and so is Andy and there's a wrath coming behind us but it was great incredible incredible times and then obviously you went to talk sport and you had a really good two years there how did two best years of my career and I mean the story how we got there is a lengthy one an entirely different story to how we left sky but the story how we got to talk sport bottom line mate of mine was program controller Mike Parry, Evertonia had resigned once too often having had too much to drink one night and I met with Mars and talked about joining them and I said to Andy we're going we spent five hours on the roundabout at Wickham on the M40 and I had five hours and I said we're doing this, no we're not Andy we're doing this, no we're not it's too soon Andy it's not too soon there's never too soon there's too late but it's not too soon we're doing this, no we're not and eventually I think I grounded to a point whereby he said okay and everything was agreed that night but he'd never done radio he didn't understand what fun it was and it is it's still a fantastic medium and I just think we sat there the first show we did I mean I remember we looked at each other about and of course we went to the news an hour and a half in and the street was full of press and it's the most uncomfortable place to be at that time but I looked at the clock and thought an hour and a half to go yet just done that an hour and a half and oh we're going to come back tomorrow oh and the next day five days away and that three hours felt like three months and then it started to feel like three weeks and then three days and then in the end three minutes it was great and we're doing the same thing again now with what we're doing what better is there to do than sit and talk to people about football I can't think of anything especially when you've got your black book you can get anyone and it's fantastic again you're still doing things that other people aren't doing and I don't think other people who've come after you just going back to Sky they've come after Andy don't get me wrong but it's not quite the same I'll tell you what I think the biggest difference is I'll tell you what I think the biggest difference is and no one's ever really thought about it Andy was a forward Andy was someone that did the hardest thing on the pitch Barnum, score goals so I understood how much it hurt for people to create and he looked at the game from a creative eye he would always say if I'm in the box being marked by a centre bank I'm favourite I'm proactive, he's destructive he looks at the ball, he doesn't know where I am I move behind him, next minute he turns around I'm gone, bang, goal so he always looks at a goal from a creative and a constructive point of view I think there's a massive difference between that and a defender and an ordinary defender or two telling you how the goals should have been stopped there's always a reason why a goal should be stopped but sometimes you say do you know what, that was magnificent I think not everything is bad not everything should be destroyed not everything I had this conversation, there's a name just to drop I had this conversation with Arson when he was out here with us and Arson said I'm in the middle of having a big row with sky at the moment and I said oh that's interesting, why he said because I don't understand why you would spend money they have, 1.1 billion on rights, and then set about destroying the product week after week why do they do that and I said well, I've got my own theories but obviously it's not for me to worry about anymore Arson but you don't have to sugarcoat it, but there are ways of doing it that offer a more constructive conversation than destructive defenders look at the game differently, they just do and I think that's a really good point because it is, it's the two defenders so they're looking at why this was done wrongly and Andy's such a great character as well, that he was able to make you look at it from like you say a positive thing of ok maybe the defender maybe the defender could have been better but how good to strike it to do this because goals, essentially we're there to look at goals aren't we, you'll have sat in that studio and watched probably a million nil nils and you've thought, I wouldn't mind a defender may have made a mistake today in someone's score Well that's what you want, that's why I'm so frustrated with the way that they've implemented VAR, the game's become it's too technical now it's a game that we should enjoy through the eye with our eyes that gives us joy not destruction, how many goals this year that is allowed with VAR, I think we were at 50 when we stopped, 40 of them for that that's not why we pay our money to go and watch football matches goals are the commodity that we go to see so enjoy them I mean you've just brought up Arsynfengir there I mean for me, he's come up with the solution to the offside thing I'm fed up of armpits being offside with it and now they'll say it's the rules and everything but years ago I played the front Andy Gray will say this he played at a much higher level of course all you do is you get yourself in line with the defender it might only be your leg and then when the ball will go you but as long as you add the part of your body in line and this is what Arsynfengir is talking about now let's forget about him well he is, but I I go with that to some degree look it's not going away in my view it should never ever have been introduced it has added nothing it's the same with a piece of equipment when you're analysing football Andy would always say there's no point giving me that what does it add? nothing if it adds something, fine VAR has added nothing it's destroyed and it's destructive and it is there largely for that purpose it is not there Arsynfengir got one at Manchester United I can't think of too many occasions when we've said good job we had VAR today because that might not have been allowed but I think the price we've paid for it has been too great and I always said this my view on goal line technology was consistent I didn't want it not because I didn't think it might occasionally help might occasionally help I didn't want it because I knew it was the thin end of the wedge that the minute we got it people would start saying let's have cameras now for offside and frigate we've only just started with VAR which phase are we going to be arguing about soon how far back do we take it are we going to be arguing about soon and I don't think the game I don't think that's not the game I want I love watching championship football because it's pure, it's clean and a goal scored and people celebrate and crowds are enjoying it immediately not waiting what's happened there if you're in a stadium it's hopeless you've no idea I mean Everton so the last game I was at a goodersun was the man United game Dominic Halvert-Lewin scores in the 93rd minute it's essentially the winner by the way it is exactly so we're celebrating and you're looking and going well we can't really celebrate because the referee's having a chat here and you know what Richard they've either gone to the screen and looked at it and gone okay for me I thought it was a goal because the heihe didn't he could see the ball his body showed it he could see the ball because he moved he's not getting it but if the referee were to look at it and see this decision himself had he gone okay wouldn't they have liked it no but at what stage how is someone telling him and he's not got any influence on that decision it's bizarre is that just them giving responsibility away do you think totally this is whether they will never admit it but if I'm Martin Atkinson and the lad's name from Australia escapes me at the minute but the boy they brought from Australia and he's only done VAR at the minute you're not overturning decisions I've made you're not making me look a mug and so it depends who's on the pitch and it depends who's in that bunker and look it's not going on me but I wish we'd never started with it we didn't need it it's added nothing for me it's all negative and that's not why I watch football matches I want to be entertained and enjoy it but somebody scores a goal great all right onside yeah fine no reason to decide that get on with it but you lad's there on the where were you glad he's straight I don't know you in the posh seats now still wouldn't that's it we've beaten Manchester United no we haven't are you sure? no maybe that's exactly it just finally on that do you think it would help if the VAR people where referees who were still refereeing in the Premier League were almost independent or do you think it doesn't make any decisions I would prefer to see I would prefer to see people have done the game you don't need to be a referee to be sitting in there yeah I would prefer to see people that have retired that have recently left the game there are people there are good examples of people sitting on their backside Dean according to Mike Riley quotes to be not good enough to work in VAR well how good do you need to be to sit and watch your monitor I mean it's jobs for the boys by and large but we have to accept it's here and sadly I think that Blatter was right I would rather have people behind the goal and keep it a game that's occasionally going to let you down but give you something to talk about and reward you for the money you've spent you're going to see goals today not see technology disallow goals fair enough finally then and this is probably listen I kind of know your answer because of what like you say I watch the show but in terms of where we are at the moment obviously we're in a very very strange place Lee Gain yesterday cancelled France said nothing till September Italy have said the review and you know what they'll do Germany was supposed to be starting a week on Saturday and now the messaging's changed slightly but it appears here like everything's still geared towards this June the 8th June the 10th start in your opinion what do you think should happen do you think we should just leave it now till September or I said right in the first week and I had a row with Andy about the consequences of ultimately coronavirus in general he wasn't convinced but in the first week I said we will have to reset the clock my own view remains that it's the best look if you want to give Liverpool the title fine but it will always be a title that comes with an asterisk which says didn't finish the season but if they want to do that fine but I think it's unfair on others I think the best solution is to reset the clock then you're not as far as the television companies are concerned if it is purely about money they get the extra year and we can negotiate down the line no one's threatening anybody now the Premier League remember are made up of 20 shareholders they run and make decisions about the league themselves there's no reason at all why they need to they don't have to invite Leeds in who haven't yet established the fact that they're up my team are top of league one look there are far more and I keep saying this how can we be talking about playing football when people are still dying how can we dismiss the effort put in by front line workers who probably want to go to a match or watch their team play but can't how is it to lift spirits for six weeks in isolation in Germany they'll wear masks really it's not a nice subject but you can't spit because you're not at a social distance so can you tackle I mean I think reality ultimately I think we're edging there we'll say look I think the French league finishing is the first domino first the big five we'll have to we can all start again at the same time we can all kind of finish at the same time now if we say enough we didn't want it we didn't foresee it not everybody's going to be happy but there are far less problems and complications for me if we call it a day now am I excited about going back yeah I want to watch one live football course I do done it most of my life but do I want to go back in an era where players are concerned about their own well-being it only needs one player to contract coronavirus and heaven forbid suffer the ultimate consequence 100 million pound player I mean the risks are too great for me and I don't think when you sit and think it through there is a comfortable way in which would help the Tory government who would be very happy for people to start playing football again and get us talking about things other than the mess they've made of this crisis but that's not the point it isn't about money or shouldn't be we ended talking about morals and the morality of the game as the bubble burst as far as wages are concerned I hope so is there a reality about the game coming back I hope so but is there a morality about the game then we have to show that that is the case and I think we can't finish this season start again next year as we were as we were and then get on with it I know people will say what about cities European ban maybe we have to put that back a year as well none of this was foreseen by anybody it's it's uncomfortable for everybody any scenario going forward is uncomfortable what's the best of a bad choice I think reset the clock I really did players out of contract on June 30 they've said to Andy if I'm a player out of contract on June 30 if I'm William I'm not playing on for another month he's gone mad with me that's a disgrace that's typical of you I've got a family to think about in my career I get injured in that month who's looking after me I'm sorry I'm not playing on beyond that point let's have five substitutes that's not how we finish that's a distortion of the competition we had if we have five substitutes I mean Danny Higginbotham let's have ten well let's have 20 Danny I mean how far do you want to go for me it's just all of the how do you have VAR you can't sit in a stock your part next to each other so then competition changes push it through we may end up playing again I don't know if we are I'll be watching football with the same as everybody else but I am massively uncomfortable about the fact that we are nowhere near in my view getting through this or anywhere near the middle of this and lives matter more than asking footballers to be guinea pigs and get back playing sport so we can have something to do at night the stakes are too high for me and I said that in week one and I was battered by people this is why he's wrong again well I don't think I was and I still don't think I am well more and more people are 100% with you so maybe at the very start people might have thought you were wrong I don't think there'll be a lot of thinking you're wrong now it does seem to be it's becoming uncomfortable a desperation to retain when you're absolutely right we haven't got enough PPE on the front line and why should footballers be tested when staff can't it's becoming almost the issue of is it right to even bother it's a game at the end of the day we love it but it's a game and if it gives all those tests that they have or that they want or that they need to buy 4 million get them to people that are saving lives get them to medical workers sitting at home that can't go to work because they don't know if they've got coronavirus that's where these tests should be not for multi-million pound footballers it's not going to give me a lift it's going to make me as nervous as hell if I start playing football again let's leave it there fantastic and so listen Richard massively appreciate you taking the time out being fantastic and love to do it again in happier times most definitely just have a general footage here anytime you like I'm flattered that you bothered to put the Mick Ferguson jersey in the background ha ha ha ha ha listen Richard thank you so much and stay safe is the biggest the pleasure for me thank you very much what a fantastic guest that has just flown by almost an hour lovely of Richard to take the time out busy man but absolutely brilliant to have a chat with them make sure you subscribe give the video a thumbs up and if you want more videos join us over on page and see you later